E689 - Matthew Neal Boedy - The Seven Mountains Mandate - Exposing the Dangerous Plan to Christianize America and Destroy Democracy

Summary

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Living The Next Chapter: E689

Guest: Matthew Neal Boedy
Host: Dave Campbell
Main Topic: The Seven Mountains Mandate – Exposing the Dangerous Plan to Christianize America and Destroy Democracy
Date: March 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode dives deeply into the origins, strategies, and dangers of the "Seven Mountains Mandate" and its connection to the organization Turning Point USA. Author and English professor Matthew Neal Boedy joins host Dave Campbell to discuss his book, the personal motivations behind it, the broader threat of Christian nationalism, and the risks these movements pose to American democracy. Boedy also reflects on the writing process and offers advice for authors seeking to tackle difficult, underrepresented topics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Matthew Boedy’s Entry into the Topic

• Boedy explains his journey began when Turning Point USA (TPUSA), founded by Charlie Kirk, singled him out on their “professor watchlist” after he wrote a local op-ed opposing concealed weapons on college campuses in Georgia ([06:10]).
• The experience motivated him to start a blog debunking misinformation spread by Kirk and TPUSA, which evolved into public speaking, podcast appearances, and eventually his book.
• Quote:
  “So I wanted to write about them because they had targeted me and I didn’t know who they were… Also, early on when you start reading about Turning Point, you realize some of the many things they say are not true.” ([06:10])

2. Advice for Aspiring Writers

• Boedy encourages writers to read and write widely, experiment in multiple genres, and pursue subjects that are underexplored.
• He notes the importance of “finding your voice and your niche” especially in nonfiction—topics with little current coverage are often attractive to publishers ([02:46]).
• Quote:
  “If you think about in terms of nonfiction, try to write about a topic or an idea that few people are writing about, because that is often the platform that publishers like to see.” ([04:43])

3. What Is the Seven Mountains Mandate?

• Boedy describes it as a “strategy of Christian nationalism”:
  • Its goal is not individual conversion but the establishment of a Christian cultural consensus enforced by minorities who control seven key cultural “mountains”: government, family, media, education, business, religion, and arts/entertainment ([10:03]).
  • Proponents believe these spheres have been overtaken by anti-Christian or “demonic” forces and aim to “retake” them by placing their supporters in power.
  • This is not about persuasion or open debate but imposing cultural codes through minority rule.
• Quote:
  “They want to impose, in ways they think they can, this Christian idea… not just law and policy but the way in which it operates. So that applies at the federal level but also at the state, at the local level.” ([10:03])

4. Turning Point USA and Its Expanding Influence

• TPUSA is described as the organizational engine behind the Seven Mountains strategy, growing far beyond its college campus origins.
  • There are TPUSA chapters in the U.S., Canada, UK, Australia, Netherlands, each adapted to local culture wars.
  • TPUSA often uses tactics that incite outrage, aiming to create viral content and increase lines of division ([10:03], [24:32]).
  • After the assassination of Charlie Kirk, the group has actually seen its influence, resources, and energy increase.
• Example: TPUSA now maintains a “school board watch list” and aggressively targets local as well as federal officials ([24:32]).

5. Democracy, Minority Rule, and Free Speech

• Boedy frames the Seven Mountains movement as anti-democratic:
  • It seeks to replace democratic majority rule with cultural minority dominance, especially in matters of religion and public policy ([16:13]).
  • Its version of religious freedom is exclusive, privileging one strand of Protestantism over all other beliefs ([16:13]).
  • Boedy warns that such strategies reduce religious pluralism and discourage participation through intimidation and targeted campaigns ([25:07]).
• Quote:
  “I believe they’re an anti-democratic force and I’m for democracy. So if I can convince people that they are anti-democratic, then I’m all for that.” ([18:18])
• On “free speech”:
  • Boedy notes the irony that groups like TPUSA claim to be champions of debate but also use their influence to silence others—sometimes leading to harassment or job loss ([30:41]).
  • He also points to incidents where TPUSA acted as “cultural law enforcement,” notably trying to entrap individuals rather than debate them ([32:57]).

6. The Escalating Climate: Division and Violence

• Campbell and Boedy discuss how cultural and political division (“fever pitch”) have nationalized even local issues and blurred the lines between political debate and existential good-vs-evil struggles ([20:41], [23:21]).
• Charlie Kirk’s assassination and its fallout are discussed as both symptom and amplifier of an already inflamed national context ([27:01]).
• Boedy cautions about the risk of collective versus isolated violence if current trends in political rhetoric and “martyrdom” ideology continue ([27:01]).
• Quote:
  “We have nationalized local issues, and we have made national politics the only identity that matters.” ([20:41])

7. Audience, Purpose, and Hope for the Book

• Boedy clarifies his book is not an attack or debate but an historical narrative explaining how these anti-democratic movements have come to be ([35:57]).
• He hopes to reach readers who are not deeply familiar with these movements, including those who might only know Kirk or TPUSA from media headlines, or readers whose family members are quietly aligned with these ideas ([33:41]).
• Quote:
  “If you’re just thinking of Charlie Kirk as this conservative college person, then you’re missing this bigger picture. So here’s the bigger picture in my book…” ([33:41])

8. The Realities of Publishing Controversial Work

• Boedy shares that even with a compelling, timely book, he faced many rejections before finding a publisher—urging writers to persist ([38:33]).
• Quote:
  “Rejections are going to happen even with a highly great book like this, you know, but again, expect that.” ([38:33])

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Memorable Quotes and Moments

• “They want to impose…this Christian idea. So when I say strategy, I mean it’s a specific idea of Christian nationalism.” – Matthew Boedy ([10:03])
• “Turning Point itself, I write about in a chapter, determined that they were the people that should go after people that talk online with kids. So they started a conversation with a person in Nebraska posing as a young girl...” ([32:57])
• “The only answer is a majority movement…We should not be ruled over by a minority.” ([18:40])
• “We have nationalized local issues, and we have made national politics the only identity that matters.” ([20:41])
• “Even with a highly great book like this…expect rejection.” ([38:33])

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Notable Timestamps

• [02:46] – Advice for writers: read and write widely; find your niche
• [06:10] – The origins of Boedy’s interest in TPUSA and starting his blog
• [10:03] – In-depth explanation of the Seven Mountains Mandate
• [16:13] – Why TPUSA and Seven Mountains are anti-democratic
• [20:41] – The roots of deep American political division and culture wars
• [24:32] – TPUSA’s expansion into local elections and “taking ground”
• [27:01] – Concerns about violence and the impact of Charlie Kirk’s assassination
• [30:41] – Dangers of silencing, cancel culture, and policing speech
• [32:57] – TPUSA attempts at vigilante “cultural law enforcement”
• [33:41] – Boedy on intended audience and purpose for the book
• [35:57] – What the book is and is not; not an attack or theological debate
• [38:33] – The persistence required to publish controversial work

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Closing Thoughts

Boedy’s appearance on Living The Next Chapter provides a rare deep-dive into the modern strategies of Christian nationalism and their threat to American (and increasingly, Western) democracy. He delivers both a cautionary tale and a call to engagement—urging listeners and readers to understand the real intentions and growing influence of movements like the Seven Mountains Mandate.

If you’re concerned about culture, democracy, or the intersection of religion and politics, or simply want insight into tackling tough topics in writing, this episode offers knowledge, warning, and encouragement in equal measure.

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Find Matthew Boedy:

• Twitter/X: @MatthewBoedy
• Website: (uncertain extension: try searching “Matthew Boedy”)
• Publisher: Westminster John Knox Press

For aspiring writers:

• Expect rejection and keep going.
• Find topics “the world doesn’t know it needs yet.”
• Writing/publishing difficult truths can be slow—but vital.

Transcript

[A]

It is certainly not meant to be an attack. It is a, is a, we'll say, a criticism of turning point. I believe it to be a threat to democracy. And, and, and I mentioned that the times when people were reading it. So they, they now read it obviously in the lens of his death. And like they'll probably grant me. Oh, it wasn't written before then, but now that you've read it, like I got a bad review on a conservative news website and says my book was, was stomping on its grave. I'm like, I wrote it like a year before. This is not intended to be any type of an attack, but also it is not a, a debate book. It's not a theological debate book. And here's their points and here's my points. It is more of a narrative of how they came to be. It's certainly sort of a history book in that regard. But it's not meant to, you know, you decide what they say and what I say sort of thing. And it's not meant for kind of a, you know, debate society. And I guess lastly it's, it's not, while it has Christian themes in it, it certainly isn't just about Christian themes. It's certainly about a Christian group or claims that Christianity. But many reviewers have noticed, you know, that they are wanted to read it because of the threat to our, our non religious government, to our freedom of church and state.

[B]

Everybody, welcome back to Living the Next Chapter. The author podcast and I get some amazing guests on the show and we talk about a lot of stuff. I haven't really talked a lot about this and I'm excited to have Matthew here on the show together. We're going to be talking about his writings, his book Seven Mountains Mandate. There's a lot here to talk about and if you've heard of my guest, you already kind of know where we're going. You haven't. Hold on, buckle in because we're have a great conversation and learn a lot and I'm excited to have Matthew on the show. Matthew, welcome to the podcast. Glad to have you here.

[A]

I'm happy to be here.

[B]

Excellent. I know you get to talk to a lot of people about a lot of things and you get to come here with me today. I'm thrilled. So thank you for making time for us. I really appreciate it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Excellent. We have authors listening to the show, Matthew, and they are here to learn about writing and you teach writing and you've written many things. I'm kind of curious from your perspective, if there was A podcast and a conversation that you could have partaken in as a listener prior to your journey of writing. What kind of things would have been helpful for you to hear back in your early days that maybe somebody today is listening and they're at that starting point right now. What can you do to encourage that author, that writer is listening?

[A]

I mean, you do hear it a lot. But it is great advice is to read as widely as possible. Not just fiction or not just particular types of things, but read all types of things and then. And then try to, in some manners, put in your own words why it's good writing. I remember back in the day, there used to be, I think it was the Atlantic or the New Yorker. They would have a short segment of something from writing and then somebody would write after that. Why was good writing? I mean, why it flowed well, why it sounded well on the screen, and that those are always a good thing to do. So to read widely. But also I think that I got into journalism because I thought that was the only route. I'm an English professor now, and I tell my students I was not an English major for that very reason. No one thinks English majors get jobs. They do, but I went into journalism because that was the particular thing that I thought was specific enough to get a job. That may not be the case today, but nonetheless. And so I learned how to write a particular genre of news and do a lot of different things there. I think that writing widely in different genres is always important. So if you can get experience doing that, whether it is starting your own thing. This book that I'm going to talk about today started with me doing a blog that had a couple of hundred views a month. So you don't have to have a big platform to do what you do. But also I think that the third thing I would say is after reading and doing writing lots of. Of genres is do try to find. They use the word niche. Sometimes that brings up in fiction the type of stories you write. I mean, write whatever you want to write. But if you think about in terms of nonfiction, try to write about a topic or an idea that few people are writing about, because that is often the platform that publishers like to see. They like to see big followers on social media. But also here's something that no one else is doing. So finding your voice, finding your. Your niche, finding your lane, and then trying to do as much on that as possible.

[B]

Are you still seeing a desire in your students to write in a world of video and TikToks and things like that sitting down to write and get words on paper, words on screen.

[A]

Yeah, your stereotypical English major hates AI and wants to do it themselves. And also they want to. I mean most of them are into the literature part and reading great literature and trying to write, you know, their sometimes a graphic novel, sometimes it's, you know, just stuff like that. But they want to expand in terms of what, you know, they can write because they know that writing is important in particular ways. But yeah, they're interested in doing their own thing. But I think also that with, with English majors you sort of have to. What's the word? Hone them in. Because they just like to turn in so many pages and it's not all great. So you really have to help them focus on audience.

[B]

Okay, now you've picked a topic for the Seven Mountains mandate that's maybe for. Some are going to be like, wait, what are we talking about right now? And they're going to decide whether or not to continue listening. The idea that we, we can talk about things that need to be discussed and put them out there and put shine light on truth and all of that, that's really super important. Talk a little bit about the reason behind the blog that started the book. Like how did that begin? And I want to kind of get into the topic of your book because I think this is super important discussion.

[A]

So the topic of the book, the book is about a group called Turning Point USA which was founded by Charlie Kirk who was sadly assassinated on September 10th. And they have many things in which they're into. But one of the first things that they were into was starting a list of professors they didn't like. And I was one of the first people on that list and I had no idea who they were when they came out with that list in 2016. And I had written an op ed, an opinion piece for our local paper about not wanting concealed weapons on college campuses. And there's a law in Georgia that allows that now. And I honestly, it was a short opinion piece. I submitted it and didn't get a lot of, you know, commentary. And then months later, Turning Point and collecting all the things that they wanted to put on this list, found my thing and wrote about it. So I wanted to write about them because they had targeted me and I didn't know who they were and things like that. But also early on when you start reading about Turning Point, you realize some of the many things they say are not true. So the blog started as each post was debunking Charlie Kirk on blank and So I chose a particular subject matter, looked at what he'd said on those things, and tried to say what he was saying wasn't true. Sometimes it was. So that was a blog I did on Medium, which is a free blog website. I had several blogs before that on different subject matters. Social media in 2016 obviously was pretty big, but it only allowed a certain amount of characters. So I wrote a blog a month, had a couple hundred views, sometimes it got posted around different people's Reddit trains and that got some more interest. And then, of course, what I mainly tried to do was write the blog and then post the link to it underneath Charlie and Turning Point Social Media account so much that eventually they blocked me from doing that. So that's really how to get your stuff out there. But the blog turned into a couple different articles on very kind of small platforms, and then that turned into some podcasts, being a guest on several podcasts. And then that turned into, you know, having an interest from a, an acquisitions editor at a publishing house and then moving from there. So it can start small. But I think the reason, and it wasn't necessarily all, you know, step by step doing good, but I do think the reason eventually the book came out is that it was on a subject few people we're, we're writing about. I like to talk to community groups and always ask, now, you know, how many of you had heard of Charlie Kirk before he was shot? And maybe a third of the audience would, would have raised their hand. So that this tells me that, you know, that people were not aware of him. And then you add the title of the book, which is sort of this way to practice what is called Christian Nationalism. The idea of the Seven Mountains Mandate that was totally unknown to people. Like the publisher who took this book on was like, and they' They're a religious publisher. We had no idea what this was. So they, they wanted to use the unknown factor on the COVID and the title. So one reason why we didn't put Charlie A Turning Point on the COVID in the title because few people knew who they were and we wanted to go with the most unknown factor. So just because you're writing something that that is not known doesn't mean that it's not, you know, of interest to people.

[B]

So, okay, I'm looking out this through the lens of being a Canadian and not being in the mix in the US So there's a lot of things I don't understand that are going on, which maybe that also is reflective of people from the US And Canada. And elsewhere who also don't understand what's going on. So maybe this is a good, a good avenue to kind of go down this conversation. Can you please explain to me? Because I don't know what the Seven Mountains Mandate is. Can you kind of give me an overview?

[A]

So I describe it as a strategy of Christian nationalism. Now, that's a big term, and the people who advocate for that don't often use it for themselves. But it means, as the subtitle of the book implies, to Christianize your nation, to make your nation into a Christian nation. Now, that does not mean evangelizing people or spreading the gospel or trying to make the majority of people Christians, to identify them as such. It's a minority movement on purpose. So when they say they want to Christianize the nation, they mean culturally, to have a cultural consensus that is Christian and enforce both legal and political and cultural codes through a minority people that run these cultural institutions. So these seven mountains, and I can talk about the metaphor later, but these are the seven areas of our culture. And the people that advocate for this believe that our culture has been overtaken by demonic forces or satanic forces, or anti Christian forces, or forces against the west, against Western civilization, forces that would or have radically changed the culture in your country. And so Christian nationalism is to make your nation a Christian nation by not just law and policy, but the way in which it operates. And so that applies at the federal level, but also applies at the state level, at the local level. So these seven areas are ways in which they not just merely want to influence. And as a Christian, I want to emphasize that it's not just about participating in the public square, aware or arguing for policies and laws on a Christian perspective, and trying to convince people to go along with it. This has nothing to do with, in many ways, persuasion. As a professor of rhetoric, I see their attempt to not be rhetorical, to not try to deal with people who are secular or people who are of a different religion. They want to impose, in ways that they think they can, this Christian idea. So when I say strategy, I mean it's a specific idea of Christian nationalism. There have been some polls and surveys about what tenets of Christian nationalism are, but the main one, is you believe that your nation was founded as a Christian nation. And two, it's no longer that because it's been taken away. And three, it should be that in the future. So Seven Mountains Mandate is about retaking the nation through these seven cultural areas. And so, you know, some of them are pretty easy to understand. The government or the mountain of government electing Christian leaders. So the speaker of the House right now, Mike Johnson, is an advocate of the Seven Mountains mandate. And there are other people at both state and federal level that believe in it. So some of them a bit more vague or like the mountain of family, it is about wanting to enforce or silencing voices that go against traditional ideas of the family. Obviously definition of marriage limited to male and female, but also very specific gender role. So one example of that is the, the Secretary of Defense, Pete Hegseth. So he's in the federal government, he's appointed by the President, but also he is a 7 Mountains mandate person, an advocate of this so much that he is enforcing a particular type of definition of manhood on the Department of Defense. So he wants in some manners to limit women and not just combat roles, but the roles in which they play by inserting higher physical standards that they have not had to meet before and imposing a definition of manhood on the males themselves with no beards and physical shapes and things like that. So it is not just a kind of a cultural minority screaming and shouting about the ways that we've lost the nation. It is about taking back, taking dominion, as they say. So I would suggest for listeners in Canada, this is not just an American issue or problem. There was a turning point Canada there for a while and they're trying to restart it. There's a turning point UK and if you see anything about the uk, it is about very anti immigrant feelings that their country, their culture, they're implying white culture has been taken away from them. There's also a turning point in Australia and I just read this week about a turning point Netherlands. So this idea of the Seven Mountains mandate and taking back our culture, Turning Point USA with Charlie Kirk is the, is the indispensable organization for that. Most people when they hear of Charlie Kirk think of him as his college student campus underneath the tent debater. And that is certainly what he started out as and what he was doing when he was killed. But there's an arm of Turning Point for each of these seven areas. They're a large sprawling organization that has college student thing, yes, but they also have high school students. But there is an arm of Turning Point for each of these mountains and they have the money and the staff and the volunteers and the energy now really because of his death, to keep on expanding. So this is why I suggested that the Seven Mountains mandate is an anti democratic force. They may get elected by democratic means, but once they're in power, they try to use minority rule to enforce these cultural codes. And the last thing I'll say about Turning Point is that they talk about debate and free speech and going on campus. And they just had an event at UC Berkeley this week. And I would suggest that they, yeah, certainly they, they go on campus and use free speech and the policies there to speak. But what they're really interested in is making content for their own followers to see. Look at these crazy people trying to stop us. We're going to go even full, more fully into our cultural. Yeah, their, their culture war victories. That's what they want.

[B]

So it's one thing for one group to, to raise their voice, raise their concerns, get out there, talk about their message. And not everyone's going to agree. Obviously we still want that ability to do that. But it needs to have a balance. Is that's where you're heading with this. Like there needs to be, there needs to be equal time in this conversation where it's not just one voice that we're dominating the news. And the, you know, what do you see?

[A]

I would say that in a democracy, two things are important. One, yes, that all voices are heard. So when you, when you go out and make claims about we shouldn't have these people speak and we should smash other groups and we should not allow them to have roles. And that's what Turning Point says about many groups, that, that's, that's bad. But then also I think that in a democracy, it is about at least the setting of the government. It is about majority rule with minority protections. But often minorities should not overrule the majority. And then two, when I say it's a threat to democracy, it is. They don't believe that America is a democracy. They want to call it a republic. And for various reasons, they're not right. But their idea is that the nation should be centered around a particular culture, a Protestant culture. Think about the separation of church and state and the First Amendment in the United States. Obviously that's been around for a while. And that means in some manners, the government does not choose favorites when they choose or practice or allow people to practice their religion freely. What turning point in their allies say is that the Founding Fathers did not intend that, that the freedom of religion only applied to within Protestantism, that the government would not choose between Protestant sects, between Baptists and Methodist, blah, blah, blah. And clearly that eliminates a lot of other people. So when they want a Christian consensus, obviously it eliminates non Christians and Jews and things like that. But it also primarily wants to Help have their version of Christianity rule over the rest of us. So that's why I suggest it's anti Democratic. So yes, there's a Turning Point chapter on my campus. There are 3,000 probably more than that Turning Point chapters around the nation. Now they're welcome to show up on my campus and do whatever it is they want within our guidelines. But no, I'm not interested in this kind of balance because I believe they're, they're an anti democratic force and I'm for democracy. So if I can convince people that they are anti democratic, then I'm all for that.

[B]

Okay, all right. So if Turning Point, for example, and that movement is what you would maybe term as not the majority, then what would you say is the ideal majority from a US perspective that you're looking to protect through the book, through your writing, through your message? Like what, what's the definition of majority?

[A]

You know, I have said that if, if, if the Seven Mountains Manate is a minority movement on purpose, then the only answer to that is a majority movement. And I don't mean that in a partisan way or a big D Democrat. What I mean is a small letter case Democrat. It means that we should not be ruled over by a minority. And that majority includes broadly ideas of being for democracy, being for religious pluralism, religious freedom, as the Founders intended, of course, using the Constitution to give rights to every single person and not have a corrupt administration. But it really means the state and local level is compromised. And that exactly what to me the Founding Fathers published. They certainly had big disagreements when they wrote the Constitution. But the Turning Point allies and the people that follow the Seven Mountains mandate because they believe they have God on their side and they believe that they're the good and the rest of the people are evil. They're not willing to compromise with evil. So they only want it their way and their fashion. And to me, that is not the sign of a healthy democracy.

[B]

When I watch the, the news of the new mayor in New York, the, the responses to this position of him moving into the mayor now from, from senior leadership in the US all the way down to people on the street in New York, it just, it's another example of, of just how divided I guess we all are and, and, and finding and finding our, our path and what we believe to be true. Why, why are we at this point then? Because I would think that there are other equal minorities who also would love to be able to step up and take, take our, take your country in a new direction. Right. So there's there's like multiple versions of this, right?

[A]

So, you know, I think we see this a bit in European countries that have a quite, you know, a little bit different government setup, but we have these minority coalitions that have to come together to form a government, and you can snap government and get them out. We don't have that same setup in America. But the idea is, because you now have multiple, we'll say groups, and not just two parties or people who are interested in parties and try to work outside the grassroots and all that, you really have to find a way in which to. To get them to work together. So to answer your question, right, there's been a really. And the book kind of takes the history of the Seven Mountains manate through the 70s, and it can go back before that. But there's been a group that says, we don't want to work with anybody else. You know, if you think about Christian nationalism, there was a history of Christianity being outside of politics and refusing to participate in culture. They're called the fundamentalists. And that was alive in the 20s. And they got mocked and all that. And they said, we just want to run our church. We don't want to play role in society. Well, by the time the 60s comes, more Christians were like, well, our culture is changing rapidly, and we don't like that. So part of this list of these seven areas in 1975, when it was invented, was we want to, you know, you know, Christianize our culture, take back these areas. If you add that to what happened around the turn of the century, they added an element that makes it no compromise. It makes it hard to reason with them. And this is the idea of spiritual warfare, is that the nation is not just a debate society or not just a politically divided society. It is a spiritually divided society that is good and evil. And to me, as a professor of rhetoric, what I've seen in my lifetime is just the level of rhetoric being raised so much that every single issue now is good and evil. We have nationalized local issues, and we have made national politics the only identity that matters. And so from Newt Gingrich and the Republicans starting their turn in the late 90s through 2000s, with culture war being a term that we now use to now, we've obviously not taken the time to think about ways in which we can work together. Our divisions have just grown. And obviously, President Trump is the finest example of that, using divisions to be elected. In terms of the book, I think what it shows is that when that happens, when this division is so high and so at a fever pitch, you don't see these other groups gaining steam or these other groups doing it on the sidelines. And then when they get in power, you're like, how did this happen?

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, I grew up in the south, which is obviously a very religious area in our country. And while I was familiar with these ideas in the book, they were kind of fringe and they were kind of like, oh, these other people outside of mainline Christianity, that is not the case anymore because more and more we have let the divisions happen. So I think that in terms of your question about the mayor of New York, right, we have these villains that they want to play whether we, we've nationalized a very important local election, but still a very local election. Like I don't have see the need for me to comment on the mayor of New York because I don't live there, but we have nationalized particular people to make them villains.

[B]

When I hear them asking the president about his thoughts about New York and all that, I'm like, I know he's from New York and blah, blah, blah. But it just seems like that seems an odd question for the leader of a country to talk about a city I don't like. We don't see that in Canada.

[A]

No, right. Like the King of England talking about

[B]

the mayor one little tiny. It just seems, it seems like it's, it's finding its way into the conversation more and more and more because they

[A]

want to take every particular piece of ground. And I use that phrase on purpose because Erica Kirk used it a couple days ago. So they're not just interested in federal election, they're interested in state elections. Turning Point has a school board watch list, a list of school board members they don't like. They spent last week's election recalling a city council member in Mesa, Arizona because they didn't like them. So they're interested in all levels of elected office

[B]

left untapped and ready to take and do whatever they want. What's your fear for an organization like that when it comes to democracy in

[A]

the U.S. i mean, I do think they operate from a kind of fear based thing. Not just them afraid of other people, but once you see how big they are and the sprawling organization and the impact they've had so far, far a lot of people then will say, well, I don't want any part to do with that. Especially people on university and college campuses. They just want to go about their job and not get involved. Because whenever you say something that they don't like or say something that is outrageous. And they make it a viral post. You get a lot of attention that you should not have to put up with. So they're using social media and using culture war to gain power. And I think that, you know, the question is. I think the main question is what. What does Turning Point offer now that Charlie Kirk is dead? I think that they're a brand. They're a total conservative brand. They've replaced party organizing in many ways that has replaced the Republican Party. So they have so much power that they could obviously get people elected, but that's just one of the seven mountains. So really the danger for me is how they grow. And all these other areas. Now, some of these other areas, other groups have tried in the past and not been successful, but Turning Point's been successful at each and every step that they've taken. So, you know, I think that in particular states, they would have more power than others. But this idea that all these areas could be controlled by not just this one group, but this idea that other groups agree upon is frightening because you're obviously reducing religious pluralism, but you're also reducing the ability for other people to participate in a democracy because you had made them so afraid to participate.

[B]

You talk about the fever pitch of what's happening right now. It's just going to keep building and building and building like a balloon. At some point, something's got to give. What's your fear?

[A]

You know, I. I did think that initially with Charlie Kirk's assassination. Right. We. We in America have not seen this particular type of assassination in some decades. Obviously, we've had political violence in recent years and focusing on elected officials or people running for office. But to, you know, shoot someone down, it was merely at that point, talking on a college campus, I did think initially that it would lead to more violence. It took a couple days for them to arrest someone. And we have little on the motives of that one person. But I think that because we are so divided, I think there. There are many people that recognize we. You know, the next matching to the fire could be really bad. And so maybe they've stepped back from saying certain things. But, yeah, you're right. At some point, you got to think, what is the cultural response? So I'm reading about political violence. It has been isolated. I want to use that word. One person attacking some other people that they don't like, or killing them or trying to kill them. The question is when we might move to collective violence, when organized groups might try to take over a city or organize in some manners, like the insurrection of January 6th, I mean, if that had been successful, we'd be talking, obviously, a different story. So does another election year. And midterm elections are important, but they're not as important as presidential ones. So when we face that, again, we would be facing organized violence if one particular side, the conservative side, doesn't win. So in terms of Charlie Kirk, his death has been framed as being a martyr. And that, to me, and this is why I said many times, I don't think he's a martyr, and I don't think we should use that term because that term is prone to igniting retribution, violence in response. So, you know, whether or not you, whatever you think about his personal life, the martyrdom rhetoric in other countries has really made it more violent. So, yes, I think we're headed down a very dark road, and there are ways we could get off of it. But I also think that Charlie Kirk's death had been put into the culture war machine. And so the ways in which they're trying to make him into a saint has not really, you know, spread that far outside of his own bubble, which I think is a good sign. Even though we're still divided, it's still. Oh, we can still ignore this particular thing.

[B]

So there's still room for free speech in that. You can write a book like the Seven Mountains Mandate. Someone can get up and talk about their. Their religious beliefs and how they should shape the world. There's a lot of room here for us to still have this. I think the biggest thing that I noticed from a Canadian perspective, watching all that happen with Charlie and everything, it's just the fact that if somebody doesn't like you, they can silence you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Physically, in the news, whatever. They can just shut you off.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I, I fear that that pathway would mean that any group anywhere could be silenced from any speech that someone else doesn't agree with.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So, like, someone could silence you for your book and say, you shouldn't write this book. It shouldn't be out there. And, you know, we're going to shut you down. Right. They're going to sh. So. So. And you. And you talk about being on a list and all that. Like, that's. That's what I'm afraid of, is that. Where is that free speech part? Like, I don't understand where. Who, who controls. What is free speech then?

[A]

Right. So if you think about, if, if the people that don't like you have the. The power of government institutions.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That is obviously a problem. So we see Trump going on A retribution tour with the people he's indicting, things like that. So the Department of Justice is no longer that. And we see using the power of government, but also the power of cancel culture. And I don't really like that term, but, I mean, there was another list made in the days after Charlie Kirk's assassination of comments and social media comments that people didn't like. And many people were fired from their jobs because their post went viral because of groups like Turning Point. Turning Point a week ago, tried to get teachers fired from a school in Arizona because they were wearing a shirt that Turning Point thought had something to do with Charlie Kirk's death and had none, nothing to do with it. And it just went viral. So they're using the power of government and the power of culture. And so when you own both, when in this case, the Republican conservative side owns both of those things or can use both of those things, yes, it is not free speech. It's speech that comes with tremendous cost. And some people just choose not to participate. But it's not just about speech. It is about intimidation. So, again, Turning Point had an event at UC Berkeley on Monday, and there was a large amount of protests and there were some physical assaults, and that should never happen. And people are arrested for it. And I say antifa protesters were arrested. But Turning Point itself, I write about in a chapter, determined that they were the people that should go after people that talk online with kids. So they started a conversation with a person in Nebraska posing as a young girl and kept trying to contact him and talk him into meeting at a Walmart in Nebraska. And then they went there and ambushed him with a camera. And they did that because they thought that's their job, not merely law enforcement. And then they recorded it and then put it out on Turning Point Media. And so it's not just about debating positions. They're actively trying to be a cultural law enforcement.

[B]

That seems like overreach to me, as I hear you explain that it didn't go.

[A]

It didn't go well for them. So they haven't done it since. But the idea was there and so much that they tried to do it. Yeah.

[B]

So for someone who doesn't see the world through your lens, Matthew, when they pick up a copy of your book, and I'm encouraging them to do that because it's always good to hear someone else's point of view and get perspective. For someone who might not be your target audience for your book, talk to them for a second. The value for them as a reader, how should they approach this book? What's in it for them? What is your hope? Like, what is your. What's your desire for someone who. Who is on the fringe of what you're talking about? But they need to hear this message.

[A]

I see that audience as someone who's kind of aware of Charlie Kirkin and might listen to several of his things or see him on Fox News a lot and kind of, you know, it was terrible that he was killed and we should allow more people to speak on campus. And that's all true. So if that's the audience, then if you're just thinking of Charlie Kirk as this conservative college person, then you're missing this bigger picture. So here's the bigger picture in my book, but also, I think, not just politically, a different audience, but an audience that needs to be aware that their family members could be into this and not have told you. I've gotten many a story so far of readers who say, I read your book. It scares me. And then I found out that my son or my nephew, and it's usually a male, you know, called me on the day that Charlie was shot and said they shot him. And they were like, who was shot? And they explained to them that was the first time they had ever talked about Charlie. So if that's the audience that you have a family member that. That is into this and you want to know more about it, and it's difficult to talk with them about it, this is a great book for that. So you might necessarily not agree with me politically or socially, but if you want more information about what your family members are not talking about, that could be that. And I say, thirdly, I've had several people talk about the book came out on the 30th, but it was in people's mailboxes early September. And so some of them started to read it, according to reviews they've written online, as also they saw the Charlie Kirk assassination, and it was very strange for them to read the book and to see that. And so I want to make sure people understand who he was. And it's not just a negative book about him. It lays out many things that he's said. But he was very successful at this organization that he built, and you can see the history of that in the book. Book. So if you're interested in that, interested in a guy who didn't go to college, was very successful, a guy who was a kingmaker politically, but also a husband and a father, had a radio show. So if you want more information about how that could happen. Then you should read the book.

[B]

Okay. What is this book not meant to be?

[A]

It is certainly not meant to be an attack. It is a, is a, we'll say, criticism of Turning Point. I believe it to be a threat to democracy. And, and, and I mentioned that the times when people were reading it. So they, they now read it obviously in the lens of his death and like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

They'll probably grant me, oh, it wasn't written before then, but now that you've read it, like I got a bad review on a conservative news website and says my book was, was stomping on its grave. I'm like, I wrote it like a year before this. So the book is not intended to be any type of an attack. But also it is not a debate book. It's not a theological debate book. And here's their points and here's my points. It is more of a narrative of how they came to be. It's certainly sort of a history book in that regard. But it's not meant to, you know, you decide what they say and what I say sort of thing. And it's not meant for kind of a, you know, debate society. And I guess lastly it's, it's not, while it has Christian themes in it, it certainly isn't just about Christian themes. It's certainly about a Christian group or claims that Christianity. But many reviewers have noticed, you know, that they are, they wanted to read it because of the threat to our non religious government, to our freedom of church and state.

[B]

It's fascinating, Matthew. It's very fascinating. I'm glad, like you said, you went through my list of episodes and you're like, I don't see anybody talking about stuff like this on your podcast. I'm like, exactly. I've been waiting for you. So it's exciting to have you here. There's more books from you as well that people can fall in love with. As far as people connecting with you about the book, maybe there's people listening. They're like, I want to get Matthew on my show, whatever. Where's a good place to send our listeners Matthew?

[A]

I'm on social media, you know, x Twitter @MatthewBody M A T T H E W B O E D Y I'm also on Blue sky at that and I have a website, matthewbody.is it, dot org I never remember but you can contact me through that. And some people have found my, you know, university website email address and has sent me some disgruntled reader emails. So you're welcome to find that and use it. But I'm on social media if you want to contact me.

[B]

Excellent. Matthew, thank you so much for doing this. Thank you for making time for this. Keep serving your students, keep showing up, keep writing, keep sharing your message. I think we need this. We need this back and forth and try to find a healthy spot where we can.

[A]

I did want to mention in terms of the writing of the book, so I mentioned before how I got the acquisition editor to call me. But after that, getting the agent and having the agent sell the book, we were rejected by every single publisher that she went to. And she went to a lot. And it came down to, you know, she kind of gave me the conversation, well, you could publish this yourself. And then a week later we got the Westminster John Knuck Press. So rejections are going to happen even with a highly great book like this, you know, but again, expect that.

[B]

Yeah. And don't give up. Share your message. Get your voice out there. Matthew, thank you so much for doing this. Appreciate it.

[A]

Oh, happy to do it.

[B]

Excellent, everyone. All information, as always, in the show notes. You love great guests like this. Keep listening. Keep listening to the show. Reach out to Matthew. I know he'd love to hear from you. Seven mountains mandate. Again, Matthew, thank you so much. Hey, thanks for listening to the podcast. Glad to have you here. I just want to let you know that you can always find out what we're doing live in the moment by going to our YouTube channel. Head over to Living the Next Chapter dot com. There'll be a link right there. Head over to our YouTube channel. Make sure you, like, subscribe, you know, do all the things that all the YouTubers love to say. And in our YouTube channel, a couple things. You're going to get advanced listens. You're going to get the episodes that we're working on in real time. So we record and post daily on our YouTube channel. I'd love for you to give us a follow over there as well. We're making playlists. We have over 500 episodes. So finding the right episode for you. We're trying to group things into playlists. So if you like children's books, if you like business, you like historical fiction, we're grouping our authors together to make it a little easier for you to find your favorite next author. So head over to livingthenextchapter.com and again, I'd love to hear from you. Hearing from the listeners of the show is great. And I just want to say thank you you for being a part of the podcast family, and I look forward to having you back for the next episode. Thank you for being here. I really appreciate your time and your listen. Take care.