← Living The Next Chapter: Candid Conversations with Authors and Writers for Readers Searching for a New Read
Living The Next Chapter: Candid Conversations with Authors and Writers for Readers Searching for a New Read
E690 - Cindy Eastman - True Confessions of An Ambivalent Caregiver
00:51:14
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- [00:02]
A
Well, I, I didn't, you know, we didn't really talk about this too much. But so after, after my dad died, we were sort of thinking, okay, now we're going to sort of take. Figure out how, how we're going to live our next chapter. But months after my dad died, my daughter was diagnosed with cancer. And so that completely reset anything that we were going to be doing. And we've. Our focus was on her care and her family. And then we lost her last year. And so this past June, I published an anthology called Grief Like Yours. And it's a lot of stories about grief because grief is something I've been living with a lot. And so with the grief and as a writer and, and as my next chapter, my daughter Annie had started her own memoir. And so that's my next project is I'm going to finish that and kind of use the, the grief I have because there's lots of it, because she was my North Star. And so I think, you know, to. I think that would. I think that would help me to work on this for her. And, and, and I think I can do it. I think I can handle it.
- [01:38]
B
Welcome back to Living the Next Chapter. It's an author podcast where we talk to great authors from around the world, and we get to learn about their story. We get to learn about what they're writing about, what they're passionate about. And Cindy's here with me today, and we're going to be talking about a lot of things that could be heavy at times when we talk about grief and things like that. But the one thing that's interesting about Cindy's background is she comes from a humorous writing background as well. So we'll add some. Some levity to what we're talking about and, but also help you if you're on that journey of grief. Then Cindy's got some great resources for you as well. So, Cindy, welcome to the show. Glad to have you on Living the Next Chapter.
- [02:19]
A
Thank you for having me. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you.
- [02:22]
B
Excellent. You're at home alone. Everyone's gone away for the day, and you've got some time for me, right? This is great.
- [02:30]
A
I know, I know. What else would I do but a podcast?
- [02:34]
B
Be on a podcast. I love it. Let everybody know, where are you in this big world of ours, Cindy?
- [02:38]
A
I am in Connecticut.
- [02:40]
B
Beautiful. Excellent. Born and raised.
- [02:43]
A
You know, I was born in Connecticut. I was raised in Louisville, Kentucky.
- [02:49]
B
Oh, wow.
- [02:49]
A
I went off to school in Texas. I returned. I traveled a little bit Around I. In the south, and then I returned to Connecticut after I was married and had my daughter, and we came back to Connecticut, and I've been here ever since, and then had my son here. And so they're. They're Connecticut born and raised.
- [03:11]
B
There you go. Good. I like that. Let's talk about your journey as an author, Cindy, and how you got started in this field. You could have done a lot of other things, but writing became one of your main things. So what was it for you? Was it somebody tapping you on the shoulder saying, cindy, you should try this, or was it something that you just knew inside that this would be your journey to be a writer?
- [03:36]
A
I think my whole family is our right. We're writers. And I think it was always encouraged, and we were always big readers. We. My parents read to us, and they were big readers, and we encouraged us to read. So we sort of. I think it was kind of a natural progression to writing our own things. And we were those kids. We were like, let's put on a play, you know, let's write a TV show. And we would write everything. You know, we would just write, you know, all sorts of different activities and things. But. And my sister was a poet, and my. My brother is a screenwriter. And. And I've been writing, so. So it was just something early on that I took to and enjoyed and kept diaries and things like that.
- [04:24]
B
Okay, that's an interesting. That's nice to see that everyone in your family kind of have some kind of element of writing in their background. That's interesting. That's. It's interesting. A family dynamic and how a family grows up and what they become in life is kind of a good reflection of their childhood. So I'm glad to hear that reading and. And all of that was part of your childhood. I think that a lot of parents listening today can really invest in their kids by how they read to them and how important books are. I think. I think maybe sometimes we don't think about it as much, and then your kids grow up and you're like, oh, I could have probably done that better as a parent.
- [05:02]
A
Should have read a little bit more. But it's true. Because of the technology today, you know, we have dev, we have streaming, and we have things that take the place of reading. And I think that it's still. It can still be important. It can still be incorporated into those things for children, I think, and parents and children can share that as well.
- [05:23]
B
Good. So I'm reading through your bio here on Amazon, and there's Some interesting stuff in here that you've been a part of and things you've done in the past. Can you kind of give us a little sense of your background as you're coming into your journey as a writer as well?
- [05:42]
A
I didn't become a writer early on. It was just something I did in the background of the other things that I was doing. And I think what I mostly focused on was education. And I'm not a traditional teacher. I'm not a traditionally certified teacher, but I call myself an educator, so I don't throw anybody off, you know. But I. I taught in elementary school. I was the computer lab lady.
- [06:10]
B
Oh, wow.
- [06:11]
A
And I did some professional development for an education organization, so I would go out into schools and I did technology integration for teachers. And so there was always, you know, there was always some writing going on in the background. You know, I. When I was at the elementary school, I started a journal club for kids. And one of my programs when I was doing professional development was a middle school writing project. And so I just. I kind of kept my hand in while I was doing, like, my day job of teaching. And I guess it was about, oh, 20 years ago because. Because by that point I had started trying to pitch magazines and I was trying to sort of get my work out there, but kind of stepped in and that's when sort of blogs were becoming not. Not all over the place, not ubiquitous yet, but there was some access to that platform. So I started writing on a blog. And then I. I gathered them up together about 10 years ago, and I published my first book was Humor Was flip flops after 50 and other thoughts on Aging. I remembered to write down. So just. So I've been sort of more focused toward creating more writing life than. But I'm still teaching. I teach still, so. But I. But I'm trying to live a more, you know, sort of realistic writing life.
- [07:43]
B
Yeah. So talk a little bit about that. Your flip flops after 50 was. Was this something that you've always wanted to write in a kind of humorous way to kind of create a story around that and share a book in that. That context? Is that something that always interests you?
- [08:00]
A
Well, the flip flops after 50 came from the blog, and the blog was probably. I think I was probably doing it weekly or every couple of weeks. I would write what I thought was a humorous post. And so I just collected those essays and put them in a. Collected them in a book and published them as they're all. So it's not a novel, it's not A memoir. I guess it's. It's a memoir. Ish. Because it's about me and my life and my family. But it was fun to write because humor is fun. And in our reading, we had a big. My mother was a big Erma Bombeck fan, so we had her books around, too. So it was fun to write. And so I enjoyed. When I decided, oh, I could take these and make a book out of those and. And then sort of a theme developed around it and. Because I was getting older and a lot of my stuff was about empty nests and, you know, viewing your pets as children, what's your children, things like that. So it was. It was. It was a lot of fun. And I had a lot of fun writing it. And I had a lot of fun when. Because the demographic was. Everybody figured, well, women over 50. But I have a lot of men enjoy it and contact me and tell me they liked it too.
- [09:24]
B
It's good. Well, yeah, I'm an empty nester, and anything along those lines I could. I totally resonate with. And it's funny when. As an empty nester, when. When our kids left home for me, I saw it as like, wow, look at all this free time we have. This is like a. You got promoted into being an empty nester. But my wife had the opposite impact. For her, it was almost like a demotion in the sense that she ran the house, she kept us all organized, she kept us in the right place at the right time, and that whole element of who she was and what brought her joy was removed because the kids didn't need her the same way anymore. Right. So I'm seeing it as a win. She's seeing it as a loss. And I'm like, I need to realize and recognize the difference between the two of us.
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A
Right, right, right. It is a big. It's a loss. You know the. You know, when. When you used to be the camp director.
- [10:24]
B
Yeah, exactly.
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A
You don't do it anymore.
- [10:27]
B
Like, there's no camp.
- [10:28]
A
How do I do?
- [10:29]
B
Yeah, all the campers have gone home. You're like, oh, now what do I do? Right.
- [10:33]
A
You know, I always remembered, though, because, I mean, there were times when I felt like, oh, where is everybody? There was a. There was a Reader's Digest cartoon. We used to get Reader's Digest. And there was a Reader's Digest cartoon that I, for some reason, remembered. And it came back to me back then when that was all happening and they were leaving and the husband and wife are standing on the porch sort of wistfully looking at, you know, the, the child driving off to college, you know, with the packed car. And, and I think the wife says, you know, well, hun, you know, you're all I've got left now. And the husband turns to her and says, well, hun, I'm all you started with. So. And I just thought that was kind of a nice.
- [11:18]
B
Yeah.
- [11:19]
A
You know, statement on, you know, that's true. It's like, this is how we began and here we are again. So kind of like a nice, you know, full circle moment. To me, it felt like, there you go.
- [11:32]
B
That's it, everyone. The podcast is over. That's a perfect. That's. That was really great. No, we'll keep going. There we go. That was really good. I like that. So I'm looking at your Amazon page as well. There's. There's a couple other books we're going to talk about today. We'll get into that in a moment when, when we talk to authors here on the podcast. Cindy, we have, we have people that are just starting their journey as a, as a writer, and they're probably maybe wrestling with a little bit of, well, who would ever be interested in what I have to write about? Like, you know, I have these ideas, I have these stories I'd love to share, but I don't know how to build audience. I don't know how to build community around what I do. I don't know if I'm going to be accepted as a writer in the community. Do you have any words of wisdom for a new person that's on the beginning stages of starting their journey as a writer?
- [12:23]
A
Well, I have words.
- [12:25]
B
Good.
- [12:26]
A
Not sure how. Wisdom, how full of wisdom they are, but I do hear this a lot, because I do. I also do writing workshops and I teach writing classes, and that's a concern, especially for memoirists. It's like, well, who wants to read my story? There's a million stories like that, but it's not your story. And if you have a story to tell and if you have had some experience with something and, and have made it through and it has impacted you, then your story is legitimate, you have a story to tell, and people will connect with that. As far as building community, I think, again, what I always tell my writers is just start, just start writing. Find a class, find a writing group. Maybe there's like, at the local library or senior center if they're older writers. And just kind of thinking, after my, after my life, after my career, after my empty nest, you know, I really wanted to write this or start writing. Senior centers have writing classes, libraries do, colleges and universities do. And then, you know, kind of just begin and start putting your pen on, on the paper and, and start writing the words. And it's, it is a, what happens when people start writing, I believe, is that the things come up from your life and your, you know, experience and that it's kind of a self motivating activity. And as you write, do you kind of start thinking, oh, this, I like this. You know, I like seeing what's happening, I like what's, and, and it kind of keeps you going, I think. That's what I think did that.
- [14:25]
B
Yeah, I like that. And I like the idea of writing in community as well. To do this on your own, in solitude and stay motivated, stay encouraged to keep writing. Sometimes it's hard to do on your own. So when you have a group, a group of other writers and authors that are on a similar journey, you can be accountable and find support and encouragement. So I like that. When you, when you teach, are you doing this virtually? Are you doing this in person or kind of a mix?
- [14:55]
A
I, I, it's a mix. I have a couple of online writing groups now that, and then I have an in person, it's a writing through grief workshop and that is in person locally. So I have, I have both and I add them or you know, when I can, if I can. If there's like a desire for more classes, like I used to teach a lot more like memoir and just sort of trust your writing voice. Now I do a class or a workshop called We Can Write Hard Things. So that's something that I actually am going to be teaching that course at the Urma Bombeck Writing Conference in March. So I'm kind of excited about that.
- [15:45]
B
Well, that's a full circle moment.
- [15:47]
A
Yeah. Yeah.
- [15:48]
B
Right. Book being in your home now to being part of that. Come on. That's great.
- [15:52]
A
Yeah, no, I'm, I'm super excited about that. Yeah.
- [15:55]
B
Wow, that's a great. See now that's, that's amazing. See. Yeah, a lot of full circles while we do this today. I like this, the theme. This is, this is a theme. I like this. Okay, that's great. I think, yeah. As we can encourage authors to keep writing and keep sharing their story. You know, I think that's, that's super important. So appreciate your thoughts on that. That's great there. As I look through your listings here on, on Amazon, there's a lot here for us to fall in love with as, as readers. So can we just kind of quickly talk about some of your past work and we're going to focus more on what's most recent. But there's a lot of great options here online to purchase. Can you kind of talk us through maybe some of the first books and work us through some of the. Your. Your library of what you have here?
- [16:43]
A
Oh, a library hasn't been referred to as a library.
- [16:46]
B
There you go.
- [16:46]
A
Wow. Wow. Well, the first one. The first one that made me feel sort of legitimate was the Flip Flops book. And after Flip Flops, I think there's. Well, it was my intention to follow up a couple of years later with another book after a trip to Italy that I took with my husband. But. And we'll talk about that in a little bit. But. But then I began care taking. Taking care of my dad. So. So rather than have the time and energy honestly to write another book, I began submitting to anthologies. So I do have a. I am. And I think in about like maybe three or four, maybe half a dozen anthologies, I have a piece in those. And then I. Then I wrote the. I didn't intend. While I was. While I was taking care of my dad, he came to live with us in our home. And it wasn't my intention to, you know, write a book about it, but ended up becoming that because I felt like it was important that, you know, to record what I was going through because I'm a writer, you know, I. This is how I figure stuff out. I write it down and think, oh, that's what I was thinking, you know, so. And it. And it helps. I always believe it processes. It helps process our experiences and makes them. Gives it meaning. So I knew that I had to. I knew I was going to write about it anyway because I was going to do that anyway. But it became important to me when I realized that as a caregiver you tend to then meet other caregivers or maybe go to a conference, for example, or talk to their doctors and meet other people. And. And it became clear to me that it was important to write down what was happening for us because it's really hard. And I think that there's this gloss over caregiving that it's like, well, you should feel so rewarded and this is such a noble thing. And, you know, they took care of us now we take care. Like it. And all of that I think is a little bit. It's like a false equivalence almost because the day to day 247 work of being a caregiver is really hard.
- [19:21]
B
Yeah.
- [19:23]
A
For even if they are if your loved one is in a facility like a, you know, a nursing home or even an independent care place or, or in your home or next door, it's hard. It's. It, it requires like 24, 7 vigilance and it's, it's. So I knew that I wanted to write it down and record it because if I thought I might write a book afterwards, I knew that sort of the, the gloss would come over me and the, you know, in my memory would be that wasn't so bad and that. So I felt it was important to record the actual experience.
- [20:03]
B
Yeah, I like the idea of documenting it because in the moment you're like, I'll remember this. I'll remember this situation. I'll remember how I felt today around this thing that happened. But without documenting it and without putting it down on paper or having some way to, to record it, you, you won't, you won't remember how you felt or kind of where your mindset was in that moment or something funny that happened or something really sad that made you pause. Right, that, right. I think that's, that's interesting that you can leverage that and then turn around and then turn it into something more public facing where it's more personal when you're writing it for yourself, but then you can then translate it to an audience. I think that's, that's hard for me to picture as a non author. Thinking through this is how you take a personal story and make it a public connection with your audience. That's got to be hard to do. Is that, is that difficult?
- [21:03]
A
It can be. Okay, I think because like some of the things you were talking about, like, oh, I will remember this so I can write about it later. But later when, especially if it's like a very frustrating or challenging thing, you might not want to share it because you'll feel guilty and you don't want to share those stories and so you'll write about all the fun and nice and funny things. So I think being able to connect with, you know, the, the public facing part of it is that there are a lot of people out there who are doing this kind of work and it's work. And it, for me, it, it felt like it affirmed their experience. You know, people who aren't writers or who don't write or don't, you know, they just, they just are out there doing all this work and caring for their family and, and, and I felt, I hoped that it would give people a way to say, like, oh my gosh, that's how I felt, yeah. And, and, and sometimes you don't like it. And that's what I wanted to affirm, you know, that it's, it's really hard work, and you're not going to always like it, and that's okay. It's really okay.
- [22:22]
B
Yeah. And the topic of grief is something that all of us are going to experience at some point in different, different ways, but it's going to be something that comes across our path. So that is a universal belief and truth and reality that all of us are going to have in common at some point. So having people share their stories, we can see ourself in elements of your story. Right. And that helps us to navigate some of the things that we're going to be facing down the road as well. So it's a comforting thing. It's a companionship piece as well, I think.
- [22:59]
A
Yeah, I hope it is. Yeah. I think the thing that made me decide to write, I think when I thought, well, this, this is going to be a book, because I did go to a conference. I was invited to go to a conference, and, and it was called the topic. I was on a panel, and it, and it was called Unpacking Caregiver Guilt, I was like, yeah, I'm, I'm in for this one because I, you know, I wanted to dispel the guilt, like, don't feel guilty. And so I, I, I was on, I think there was just one other woman in the moderator, and the one other woman was just full of, like, we're so grateful. He's so, you know, yes, he, you know, spills and falls and swears and, but, you know, we're here for that and we're doing. And I was like, yeah, that's, that's great. You should totally do that. That's good for you. And I said, but, yeah, it's really hard. And I shared my experience, and I'm not, I wasn't, like, mean. I didn't hate my dad. I love my dad. I still love my dad. And I'd still make the same decision, but I shared my honest experiences and feelings about it. And it was, what was, what happened was that after the panel, like, several people came up to me and said, oh, I'm so glad you said that. You know, that's exactly how I feel. And what was noticeable about it is that nobody raised their hand during the panel and shared with the group that they all just, like, waited until afterwards and came up to me privately and said, yeah, that's how I feel. So I thought, yeah, we need to bring this out into the light a little bit and let people not feel terrible about not liking to do this, and it's okay.
- [24:41]
B
So from your perspective, as you kind of write and share your stories, talk to the person that's facing grief or currently, this is the reality right now. What are some of the things that you found helpful in the process of writing that you hope your books will be that companion piece to the person dealing with grief right now?
- [25:04]
A
Well, that's in the. With the. With the caregiver book, the True Confessions that was. I. I purposely organized it around before, during, and after because while I wanted to capture how difficult it is, I also wanted to. To present my dad in a light that. I mean, like, he was an awesome guy. We loved him very much. And so I wanted to make sure that I included that part. And that's where part of that grief comes up for. For caregivers is that it's anticipatory grief because. And this is where it's not like raising a child. You raise a child to grow up and, you know, go to boys, be a Boy Scout or learn how to ride bikes or, you know, fall in love with animals and go to school and go to college and get married and. And there's a certain trajectory that is expected for that. But when you bring in, like, especially a parent or somebody who's ill or, you know, medically complex, that's not the expectation they're not going to get better. And so you begin grieving the loss of that person when you realize that it's not the person that they used to be. And of course, they probably have all that feeling as well, and it becomes like a very, you know, kind of. It's a very emotionally fraught experience for everybody. I think my dad, you know, he didn't like feeling like he was a burden to us. And. But so I think. So I think the grieving process begins with that. And I think it's important to let people know that that's that. That feeling that they're having, you know, the discomfort or the unease is they may be grieving a loss. And. And that's what I, again, I like to hope that any part of my experience can be affirming and helpful company for it. For another.
- [27:13]
B
Yeah, what. What is True Confessions of an Ant Ambivalent Caregiver. What is it not. What is it not designed to be like? I'm kind of. Because we always talk about what the book is, who it's for and what it's about, but Is there something intentionally that it's not meant to be?
- [27:34]
A
Well, it's not. It's not a yay. It's not like, all, like, hope and promises. It's definitely not that. It's. It's not. It's not really a how to, but it can be kind of a how to. Because I included some things. Like, like I had my dad. I think I included the whole thing. It's. I have to. I had. When, When I, When I did leave, I had, like, very specific and copious notes and tables and diet, you know, ingredients and things. And it was like I. I wrote down almost like every minute of the day what. What he was. He. He would need and how to go about getting it to him and where all the supplies were and, like, where the batteries and where are the needles and where's the insulin? And so it could be some kind of a how to for somebody, but so it's not. It's not a. A glossed over account of a caregiving experience. It's definitely the nuts and bolts.
- [28:48]
B
Yeah. Okay. So it's designed for someone that's actively caregiving for a family member or someone in their circle. Right. Okay.
- [28:59]
A
All right.
- [29:00]
B
What about who cares for the caregiver? Like, that's the other side of it, right? Because like you said, you're giving and giving and giving, and your world is caregiving in that moment. You're not. It's not like you can take off a lot of time and just not show up. You got to be there. They relying on you. Right. So who was caregiving for you? Like, who was taking care of you when you were a caregiver?
- [29:25]
A
Well, that's. That's kind of my. When I. When I haul a soapbox around and climb up on it and start railing at people, it's at those. You know, in the. The state of Connecticut just came out with a pamphlet for caregivers. It's like, you know, here's resources and strategies. And it always drove me crazy. It drove me crazy when people say, don't forget to take care of you. It's like, I know I can't, but I know it's. I know it's important, and when I can get to it, I totally will. But it's like, I think I made the joke in the book. I forget my. One of his. One of my dad's doctors recommended the book the 36 Hour Day, and it's about caregiving. And. And so I bought it. It's like this thick. It's like a thick book. And I thought, well, yeah, well, maybe if I need it to prop open the door so I can keep open, keep my eye on my dad while he's in the shower, you know, I might use it then. But, like, I can't sit down and read a book this thick. And, you know, I flipped through it, but I didn't. I couldn't get through it. So. So I. I can't. When I. When I can. When I can, you know, publish an article or, or talk to people, I. I try to make it very clear that all of those suggestions are great and, and it's wonderful, but for many caregivers, unless, you know, you know, it's like, you know, offer to take their person out or something like that, you know, it's like with. With so many people, it's like there's so many. It's not just like, let's take dad out for a walk. It's like, let's make sure he's had some food. Let's make sure he has his insulin. Let's make sure that, you know, we've got the supplies. Let's make sure that, you know, we can go somewhere, there's flats so the walker can get up. You know, it's not, It's. There's so much that is required, especially again, for a medic. My dad was type 1 diabetic, heart pacer, legally blind. He was. Had mild cognitive impairment, but I think he was probably further along in dementia than that. But, you know, so. So some. It's just like these things that are always offered, like, you know, bring a meal by, you know, but for me, it didn't work because he had so many dietary requirements. So. So it just, you know, or just like, don't, you know, take a weekend. You know, they have respite care places and everything else. And that is also true. But again, with somebody who has a lot of requirements or conditions, it's. It's just not that easy or affordable for, you know, some families, you know, they're expensive. Yeah.
- [32:18]
B
And even if you do get away, you're still mentally attached to your father and worried and concerned and making sure, you know, you're not really unplugged, you're not really taking care of yourself in that moment. If anything, for some people might be even more stressful to now be away and hoping that he's okay and all of that. Right.
- [32:40]
A
So, absolutely. The first time we went away, I had a series of, like, I had a professional caregiver and. And then like family members, you know, Staggered throughout the day to make sure. And we were going to be gone, I think, for a weekend. And we had just put in one of those cameras. Those, like, nanny cams.
- [33:02]
B
Yeah.
- [33:03]
A
So we. I was. I was in Maine. I was five hours away. And. And then we had met the person. She was lovely. And we met her supervisor, and they came in advance and met dad and everything. And. And so she was going to arrive at a certain time. So I peeked on the camera. Like, I clicked on the camera. I'm like, let's see how that goes. And she seemed to be doing fine. She was making my dad some breakfast, and she said, well, how would you like some orange juice? And he said, oh, that would be fine. And I'm like, what? You can't give him orange juice. He's a diabetic. And orange juice is what you give diabetics when you need to raise their blood sugar.
- [33:44]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [33:46]
A
And so I'm like, on the phone, I'm like, I called immediately and I called her and I said, do not give him the orange juice. Like, it'll spike his blood sugar. It'll be, you know.
- [33:55]
B
Yeah,
- [33:58]
A
but you said, you know, connected mentally. I was also connect. He had a continuous glucose monitor attached to his body, and it fed the readings to his phone. But I also had the readings come to mind. So when. There were a few times when he was. We did try an assisted living place after he was in a rehab center for a while for a broken ankle because we couldn't manage his care here. Yeah, I was still getting the readings from his. And so they would like, they would, like. I would get these alerts, these alarms, and I'd have to either call or drive over there. And so, yeah, you're always on 24 7. 24 7. Yeah.
- [34:41]
B
Yeah. And then. And then there's the part two of caring for your parent when they were the ones that cared for you and you were little. Right. And there's a reversal of roles. And, you know, and then this is your. This is your. Your. Your father, you know, this is. You're seeing him in a different light than you saw him as a child growing up. Right. So you're mentally, you're. You're readjusting and you're parenting your own parent, which is. Which is kind of plays with your mind a little bit as well, like,
- [35:16]
A
and which he doesn't want.
- [35:17]
B
No, right. There's. And there's privacy things. He's like, yeah, I want my daughter seeing me in the shower. Like, there's a bunch of little things. Right. I know, but in your mind, you're like, it's just so. It's. It's. Your mind has to change. Right. To give the care that you really want to give to your parents.
- [35:35]
A
Absolutely.
- [35:36]
B
Right.
- [35:36]
A
Yeah. Well, and one thing I tried to remember, and I repeated this to myself quite a bit. So I wasn't just caring for this cranky, angry man at the end of his life. I was caring for the. The man who. For the breadth of his life, for when I was a little girl. And he would, like, drive me down, you know, to the school bus, you know, because it was cold. And he would wait in his car, like, and he would. You know, he was the one who showed up when I was going to be in the spelling bee and, like, you know, we would. Flew me home from college after, like, this terrible breakup and, you know, I was going to stay over for Christmas. And he's like, I'm getting you a ticket. Like, you know, you can come home. He was that guy, and he was always that guy. But he was, you know, he didn't want to be parented. He didn't want to be living in our remodeled dining room. He didn't want to do any of that. And it may. But he was old and he was bereft because he had lost his wife, he had lost his daughter, he had lost his community. And it was. It was a hard adjustment for him. And as much as I'm sure he thought he tried, he. It was hard. It was very difficult for him to accept that I was the one who was providing his care, you know?
- [36:54]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that's. I like that you talk about the. Looking at the whole of him throughout the years instead of just this specific point in his life. I think that's. That's a good perspective that can help you live through some of the things where. Especially if you're. If your parent has any kind of dementia that they're. You're dealing with and they don't recognize you. Like, this is. Those are really tough. I've seen some families online that are dealing with that in real time, and they. Sharing their journey about, you know, how they're caring for their loved one and the frustration they have at times when they're not even recognized by their own parent.
- [37:39]
A
I know.
- [37:40]
B
And you can see them just. Just longing for their parent to say their name or.
- [37:44]
A
Right.
- [37:45]
B
Identify them. Right. And you're just. So someone listening is. That's their situation. And they don't feel like they're appreciated in the moment for what they're doing for their own family. But there's a. There's a bond, there's a commitment to. To caring for them. Right. That's got to be very, very difficult.
- [38:05]
A
It's so. And. And I mean, only one time, my dad, before all. Before all of the caregiving and everything else, when he was still in Florida with my mom, he had a fall and he had. He was in a coma for 10 days. And when he came out of it, he didn't. I'm laughing because the doctor, like, he came out of the coma and we were all standing around and he. The doctor was like, you know, warren, Warren, can you hear us? Can you hear us? And he didn't say anything or do anything. And he said, warren, if you can hear me, move your arm. And my dad went, you know, like, he started waving his arm all the way around. We started, like, laughing. So, um, so he was. Yeah, he had come out of it and he was ready to, like, come back and be there. And so while he was in the hospital recuperating from that, he would have the sort of delusional moments and he would call me. He would call me. He referred to me. I forget the name. He used Helga or something. And his. His sister Helga. And as far as anybody knew, he had no sister Helga. So, you know, so. But it was brief. It was brief and it wasn't. It didn't. It wasn't lasting, but I. It did make me feel a moment, how it might feel when your parent doesn't know you. And that. That's. That must be very difficult. And I think. I think that. That it's. It. You can only. I don't. I don't think you can tell somebody how to handle those moments. I feel like it's really between the. The two and. And it's. And how they handle it or how they understand it or, you know, if they can kind of hearken back to, well, she did know my name for, yeah, 57 years, you know, or something. And. But I don't know. I don't know. I think that's just such a individual way to handle that person per specific experience.
- [40:11]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. So for the ideal reader for your book, then, if you had a few moments just to kind of sit with them before they started to read your book, how would you introduce this book to them so that the intent of the book is communicated to the reader before they started, how would you kind of introduce this to. To somebody? Listening. That's going to buy a copy of your book.
- [40:38]
A
Well, I would thank them.
- [40:39]
B
Yeah.
- [40:40]
A
For considering it, but I. I think I would ask them to kind of bear with me with this and. Because some of the stories are honest. They're not. I would. I wrote about it even though I thought, you know, some people are going to think I'm awful. And. And I wrote it anyway because. Because I. Because I know that. That feeling that you feel like you're awful. You feel like you're the worst person in the world. You know, you've been charged with caring for your parent, and you feel terrible about it. And so I guess what I want readers to know would be to. To be that. That's. It's, you know, give yourself permission to feel the way you feel. You know, you can read this book and you'll at least have one other person that, you know didn't like it either, and just give yourself permission. You know, don't do the laundry. Go put your feet up for 20 minutes. You know, just give yourself permission to do. To take care of yourself and to feel. To feel your feelings. You don't have to love this 24 7. I guess that's what I want them to know.
- [41:57]
B
Yeah. And that feeling is detached from the person, but you still love the person that you're carrying. But at the same time, you can separate yourself because at what point can you give. If there's nothing left in you, You've got a refill. Right. Somehow.
- [42:13]
A
Yeah.
- [42:14]
B
Right.
- [42:14]
A
Yeah.
- [42:15]
B
What was. What was something that refilled your cup when you were caring for your dad? How did you. How did you do that in practical ways?
- [42:22]
A
Well, I had a very supportive husband who, you know, my. I focused on. On my story with my dad. So I didn't ring in, but my. And my children live nearby, and, you know, although being a caregiver impacts everybody, so my daughter had a son who I was typically very involved with and couldn't be for, you know, many times. And. And so. So those kinds of things, like, my. The. The love of my family fed me. And then I think just knowing that, you know, I know I couldn't. I couldn't take a weekend and, you know, fly to the Bahamas or whatever people do. I don't even know. But. But. But I think. I think once I realized I could just. I could feel the way I feel. Like, I think once I realized, it's like, no, I don't need to scrub the bathroom floor right now. I can go sit down for a minute and play gummy drop on my phone. And, you know, or scroll through Instagram for 20 minutes or something like that and not do anything. Like, I didn't have to be productive. I could be not productive. And I think those little moments were helpful, knowing that I could sit and take that kind of time. But again, the support and love of family, and that was really. I think that's probably what it was.
- [43:55]
B
Excellent. Love it. So my podcast, Cindy, is Living the Next Chapter. And one of my questions for my guests frequently is how you, as an author are continuing to live your next chapter. Can you give us some kind of sense of what's down the road for you? Where do you want to go next?
- [44:15]
A
Well, I, I didn't, you know, we didn't really talk about this too much, but so after, after my dad died, we were sort of thinking, okay, now we're going to sort of take. Figure out how. How. How we're going to live our next chapter. But months after my dad died, my daughter was diagnosed with cancer. And so that completely reset anything that we were going to be doing. And our focus was on her care and her family. And then we lost her last year. And so this past June, I published an anthology called Grief Like Yours. And it's a lot of stories about grief because grief is something I've been living with a lot. And so, and so with the grief and as a writer and as my next chapter, my daughter Annie had started her own memoir. And so that's my next project is I'm going to finish that and kind of use the grief I have, because there's lots of it, because she was my North Star.
- [45:31]
B
Yeah.
- [45:32]
A
And so I think, you know, to. I think that would. I think that would help me to work on this for her. And, And, And I think I can do it. I think I can handle it.
- [45:50]
B
It's kind of like your heart grows a little bit bigger in the process of writing. Right. Because now you're, you're able to. Like you did with your caregiving for your dad and. Right. And sharing that story, you. You capture these moments and you realize and reflect. And in those reflections, it's just, you're. I guess I'm just envisioning your heart just getting a little bit bigger each time. Right.
- [46:14]
A
That's a nice image, because I think, I think you're right. I think that. Because I've started. I've started work on, on her book, and, And I've read through her what she wrote. She's had, like, maybe a third of it finished, and I've been reading a bunch of her readings. And I think I. And I said this before, like, writing is a way to process our experience anyway, and. And I think, you know, I could be in denial about it. I could just shove it all aside, but, like, really kind of immersing myself in her. In her life with her writings and the. And we. She and I wrote a couple. A series of articles about cancer while she was undergoing treatment, and so I'm going to include those. And so kind of immersing myself in that. In her writings and in our life together and reading some of her journals and including some of those things, it's really hard. It's really hard. But I can't see any other way to go through this. Kind of, like, how could I go through it without her? So she's going to be by my side.
- [47:33]
B
Your North Star. I like how you said that.
- [47:35]
A
She's my North Star.
- [47:38]
B
As people are listening, you go outside and take a look at the stars tonight when you go for a walk and. And just envision that. Right. It's. It's always there.
- [47:45]
A
Yeah.
- [47:46]
B
Always consistently in the same spot. You can anticipate it and it gives you direction. Right.
- [47:53]
A
Definitely.
- [47:54]
B
All those things in one. What's the process of. Of working on this? Do you have a timeline? Are you. Are you just giving yourself time to write and. And work on this when you feel. Or. Or do you actually have a date in mind for this?
- [48:11]
A
I don't have a date, and I actually, I. I don't really have a timeline, although I think I'm. I'm. As you know, when you said timeline, I was like, no, I don't have a timeline, but I'm thinking maybe next spring to be kind of ready to. To publish it or find a publisher or publish it myself or figure out. I. I think I should be kind of wrapping it up by then.
- [48:37]
B
The reason I ask these questions of you is there's a selfish intent behind it because I want more time with you, and I'd love for you to come back and.
- [48:45]
A
Okay.
- [48:46]
B
And. Because now we're hearing kind of the beginning of the journey for you, and I think our audience would love to celebrate with you when you get closer to that date and seeing this become a reality. You know, I think all of us would be really interested to hear the process, get an update from you, and then again, like I said, celebrate with you and support you in launching that one as well.
- [49:10]
A
I would love to come back and share that with you. I would love to do that.
- [49:15]
B
Thank you for how you show up, Cindy. For us. Because I can tell you there's people listening right now that feeling like they're in that sandwich generation where they're caring for their own children and then caring for their family, and they feel like there's nothing left to give to have resources like this that we can draw on and draw upon. I think that's. That's what is needed right now. And like you said, everyone has a story, and your story can help someone, so.
- [49:43]
A
Absolutely.
- [49:44]
B
Thank you for showing up in this way.
- [49:45]
A
Thank you for having me. This was really wonderful to do and so comfortable to have this conversation with you. I really love that. Thank you.
- [49:57]
B
Hey, thank you so much again for pressing play. As you've heard, great guests on the show, and one thing you didn't hear in this conversation is what? What did you not hear? Think about it for a second. That's right. Not a single solitary commercial for a mattress or a supplement or whatever you call it. No. Why? Because we don't want to break up the conversation with commercials. So the fact that you're still here means that you are a fan of the show, I'm assuming. So if you want to help to keep the podcast going and to make me feel really happy, all I really care about is coffee. Okay. I just gotta be honest. I love coffee. I'm drinking one right now. Starting to get cold. I need. I need to warm it up. Helping us with our Buy me a coffee link over@livingthenextchapter.com and also in the show notes, helps kind of keep the lights on around here. Remember, I'm doing this for free. I. I'm paying for everything, so I would love to have a little coffee donation. You know, even five bucks kind of fills up my cup. And I would love to enjoy a coffee from you. So if you're interested, again, thank you for listening, but you can use our Buy me a coffee link and fill up the cup. Thanks for being here.