← Living The Next Chapter: Candid Conversations with Authors and Writers for Readers Searching for a New Read
Living The Next Chapter: Candid Conversations with Authors and Writers for Readers Searching for a New Read
E691 - Laura L Engel - You’ll Forget This Ever Happened - Secrets, Shame, and Adoption in the 1960s
00:51:26
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- [00:02]
A
Exactly. And what happened was, once I do decide that I have to be honest about this, he's in my life now. He found me, he emailed me, and then we talked that first night for over four hours. We talked about everything and I came alive. It was like, I don't think I've ever had that kind of joy. I, I don't get me wrong, my other children have been my life. I, I love them from the second I was pregnant with them. I mean, I, I feel like being a mother has been one of the most important things in my. It is the most important thing in my life. If I had to say, okay, what have you done in your life? My sons are my important things. But with this one missing and all of a sudden, back in my life, I describe it, I was just listening. I'm editing my audiobook right now. I was just listening to a thing in the book, and it's the way I truly feel. It's like him finding me and us connecting was so powerful. It was like that first feeling when you take your newborn home and you're just consumed with love for this, this child, this new little person, and you look at this child and you think, I did. I did this. This is me. This is me. This is my child is me. Because you feel like, you know, your children are you. They are you. And it was that same feeling. But in front of me was a 50 year old man who had lived a life. So it was this double joy. It's like he had had a good life. He had had, you know, good adoptive parents, he had had, he was educated, he had friends, he had a family, three children who were my new grandchildren that I had never even dreamed of. And so it was this, this huge excitement and it was just beautiful. It was absolutely beautiful. So it relieved me. And for once I realized I could be authentic. I could say what really happened to me. I can be who I really am. And it was a huge, powerful feeling to realize that, that I can be honest about who I really am.
- [02:27]
B
Everybody. Welcome back to Living the Next chapter. It's the Author Podcast. I get to meet new author friends every time I come to the mic. And it's exciting because we're going to hear great stories. You're going to learn something about your journey as an author from a fellow author and fall in love with your next favorite read. Laura is here with us today. I'm excited and thrilled to have her on the podcast. She's written a book. The book's doing very well, which is great. That's what we want to hear from every guest. And you're going to have to grab a copy of it. You'll forget this ever happened. Not the podcast, but the book. Laura's here. Nice to have you here, Laura. Welcome to the podcast.
- [03:03]
A
Thank you. Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here.
- [03:07]
B
Awesome. Tell everybody. Laura, where are you in this big world of ours?
- [03:10]
A
Actually, I'm right outside of San Diego, California. I am in the foothills of San diego and today, December 8th, it's 82 degrees here today. Oh, I'm not too happy about that because I like colder weather at Christmas.
- [03:27]
B
Okay.
- [03:28]
A
But just letting you know.
- [03:30]
B
Wow, now you're rubbing it in because we have snow here. Not a lot, but enough to be annoying. And it's cold. And when you have to wrap up your grandchildren to get them to the car, that's not fun. So I'm a little bit jealous of you and. But I'm, I'm happy you can have time with us today. This is great.
- [03:47]
A
Yeah, thank you. Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here. I really like your podcast and I love the opportunity to talk to you.
- [03:53]
B
Dave, excellent. Well, like I mentioned in the intro, your book is doing well, which is a great thing to hear. A lot of authors that are listening would love to hear those words when they're writing their book. As a first time author, I'm sure that you've learned something, Laura, in the process of writing your book, getting it out there, it's doing really well. Something that could be encouraging for an author who's listening to us today. I'm thinking of them as just starting. Like they're just, they've got a couple words, they've got an idea, but they're looking at you as a published author going, I would love to be where Laura is and how do I get there? So if you could have time with that author as we start the podcast together, I would love for you to talk to them. They're right here with us. What would you say to encourage a new author as they listen to our conversation today?
- [04:42]
A
Well, my first thing I would say to any author, regardless of their age or what they're writing or how long they've been writing it, that never give up, never give up. It's never too late. And I was, you know, up there in age when I started writing this. I started writing it when I was 68 years old. And when I started writing my book, I didn't know what the heck I was doing. I took a lot of my Story from my journals and things I had written over the years because, you know, your memory. And my book is a memoir. So. And. And the, the main gist of my book was in 1960s, so I had to go back like 50 years and try to remember things that had happened, which it's amazing. As you're writing, things do come back to you and you wake up in the middle of the night going, wow, at least I did. And say, did that really happen? I kept writing regardless of my fears of the type of book I was writing was it was a very personal story and I was going to be writing this for others to read. And part of me was afraid of what the reaction might be. It was on a sensitive subject. So I was afraid of that. But I want to tell my. My author friends, my writing friends and I do all the time, don't be afraid. Do not be afraid. So many of our fears are unfounded. We don't think, who's going to want to read this? We don't think people will be interested in it. We're like, oh, my gosh, you know, this story is not. It's not. You write it and you think, it's my story. Who's going to want to hear it? What I learned is that we all have a story and our stories are all important, all of us. And I encourage people to write even if they don't want to go on to publication. Going on to publication was a whole new learning curve for me. As well as writing. Writing had been a learning curve. I encourage other writers to take classes or to find a writing group because writing is a lonely type of activity. You're all alone, sitting at your computer or sitting with your journal or whatever you do. And once you find people of like mind, the other writers, they understand you, whereas all of your family and friends that do not write, they're like, why is she doing this for years? What is wrong with her? And these other writers are like, they know what's wrong with you because they have the same disease. They have to put it on the page. And it's just the most uplifting thing to have other writers write together and discuss their books or discuss their journals or discuss their stories. It gives you added strength as you have them behind you. Some of the most positive and encouraging people I know are writers. I had come from an industry, a career that was real estate and title insurance, Totally different kind of career. And I never, never got the support that I got once I started writing from writers. It was a whole different tribe of People. And I just encourage all writers, keep writing. And if you want to publish, you can. No matter what you're writing, no matter what, you know, how old you are or how young you are, just do it if it's in your heart and soul to write. I just wish I would have had more confidence. I wish some writer would have said that to me before I, you know, really started. Because I spent years, I did five drafts of my book. I was so afraid it wasn't going to be perfect enough. And I look back now and I realize, I mean, I'm glad I did because I did make it better each time. That's another thing I'll tell writers. Listen to your editors. People who do this professionally, who have done it for years, they know what they're talking about. And it's not always easy to be critiqued. I used to drive home from my critique class going, what the hell am I doing? I think I am. These people are real writers. And the funny thing is, the more you write, the more you become a real writer. And so listen to them. And if you have to rewrite, keep rewriting, because it will only make it better.
- [09:22]
B
We talked before we came on the microphone today, just about the legacy around your book and the fact that this story is now out there and it's evergreen. You mentioned that word, which I love. And evergreen, for those listening, basically just that the topic is something that carries into the future. It's not time based. It's not something around a certain point in time. People can pick up this book in the future and find value in the story and the message of the book. So I love that. What other, what other comments are you hearing back from readers that kind of thrill you as an author that maybe you might not have been anticipating in the early days of writing that this book would connect so well? What have you heard back from readers?
- [10:08]
A
Well, I think this has been the best part of writing my book. I was so, like I said, worried about I'm putting this personal story out there and how will it make me look? How will it reflect on me what had happened in my life? And from the first time I started my first podcast, right before the book was published, I spoke about what I had written about and I had a flurry of emails on my website. And it was from adoptees all over the world. All over the world. I mean, this one guy says, I'm in Ireland, somebody was in Australia, somebody was in Canada. I mean, it was like this. It just started coming at me and I realized these people Were hungry for this story. And it made me feel so, so fulfilled that somebody was listening to what my book was about and wanting to hear more and wanted to hear this story. And it's still happening. My book was published in 2022, and as a writer, a new writer, a first time author, I was told, don't get excited. You know, a lot of people will only just, you know, won't even look at your book because you're, you know, you're just a newbie. Nobody knows who you are. You got to write another book before people will read your first book. They always say that. And I, you know, I get it, I totally understand that. But it's, it's still selling and it's still, it's still a book that people want to have a conversation about. So the best reward for me has been the organizations who I've spoke to now about this book that I never even dreamed existed. And the feedback I get from the members in these groups, from readers of the book, has been the most wonderful part of my life. It has given me another purpose because in many ways they tell me I've helped them to understand what I went through and how, you know, I handled it. And a lot of them are going through the same thing. A lot of birth mothers, a lot of adoptees, adoptive parents have written to me. It's a subject that I always kept close and now I talk to the world about it because I, I've learned one of the best things about letting go of a secret is you are freed of that secret. Because my book was about a secret. And then when I get their response, I always tell them, you will feel better from talking about this, because I know I do. And you're talking to someone who knows the same thing you're talking about, who has the same feeling and understands it and feels a closeness to you in a way that, that you don't get unless people have lived through this experience. My book is about secrets. It's about adoption. It's a closed adoption. It's about being a birth mother and having to give up your son, firstborn son. It's about pain, but it's in grief. It's about the stigma of embarrassment of what happened to me. But it's also joyful because without even realizing it, as I wrote my book, I learned so much about myself and I realized going back how good my life had been and is today. So I'm able to look back on things that happened that I thought were so tragic and realize the good that came from it.
- [14:05]
B
Right.
- [14:05]
A
And so that's. I feel that's a reward for me.
- [14:09]
B
Oh, yeah. That's amazing. What was the initial idea then, to sit down and write the book? Did somebody tap you on the shoulder and say, you should share your story? Something internally that motivated you to write this? Like, what was it?
- [14:23]
A
When I was a little girl, I loved to read, which I still do. I'm an avid reader. I read everything I can get my hands on, all genres. And I always said I wanted to grow up and be a writer. I wanted to move to New York City and write magazines as a journalist. I took journalism classes in high school. That my life, of course, got totally off track, and I ended up becoming a mother, having children. My, you know, my life was devoted to them. I was never a writer, and I had to work. So I, I, you know, I couldn't write and make money. And so what I did is I got into a business and. And I also became a. A career woman. And all that time, I always had this. I was reading, and all the time, I think I want to write something. So I said, when I retire, I'm going to take some classes in creative writing, and I'm going to write a family history for my sons, because I love history, I love genealogy, and I've learned a lot about our ancestors. I'm going to write that. Well, a miracle happened in my life. A son who I'd been forced to give up for adoption found me through Ancestry DNA. And 50 years later, he found me. And I had, you know, of course, we had done our DNA, and he did his six months later. And it was just like a miracle. So you've got to realize, here I am, I just retired, I'm taking these classes, I'm doing a family history for my kids, and then this happens. Well, that just blew everything out of the water. You know, it's all I talked about and thought about for, like, months. And it was a great reunion. It was beautiful. And my husband was listening to me talk about that experience. And he said, this is your story. And I said, oh, no, no, no, I can't write about that. It's too painful. And he said, honey, just write it for yourself. Write it for yourself. And I started writing, and the more I wrote, the more I remembered what had happened in those days. And it just. I was only going to write about the reunion, but the more I wrote about the reunion, the more I realized how this all began. So the story of how all this started and happened in the 1960s became my story. And I guess the reason it's written is because my husband encouraged me to write it and it turned into something I was obsessed with. I wanted to write a book from time I was a little girl. In fact, my father had said when I was about eight or nine years old, I got a desk from him for my birthday, a little desk. And he said, write me a book someday, honey. And so I always say I wrote the book, but I don't know if this is the book he wanted me to write. So I am writing a second one right now that he would approve of more.
- [17:22]
B
Okay. All right, good. Okay. So this whole idea of, of adoption as a young person, having to, to give your son into adoption. Somebody told me when we had my firstborn, they kind of put their arm around me and said, as a new dad, get used to your heart beating outside of your chest now that you have a son. Right? Your son's gonna go places, do things. And a piece of you lives on outside of your body the moment you have a child. I can't imagine 50 years of a piece of you out there in the world and you don't know where they are, how they're doing, are they thinking of you as their mom or. I don't know how. I don't know how you focus in, zero in on work and family and everything else. And there's just this feeling of your heart beating outside of you. Like in those 50 years as you kind of look back, as you were writing the book, were there moments where this was just something that was right in front of you and you had to deal with it in the moment that you, you're missing your, your son at those points. Like how do you, how you as a mom navigate that 50 year span? That's incredible.
- [18:41]
A
Well, after I, I gave birth to my son in unwed mother's home, New Orleans, Louisiana in 1967. In 1967, it was almost criminal for a young girl to be pregnant and not married. It was a common practice for parents and a lot of ministers had this happen. They would talk the parents into it, they would, they felt like they were protecting me and my reputation. And my parents had decided that they didn't, they weren't going to be able to have, they already had four children. And they take me over to this home. I have my son, I worked there for five months before I had him. And it was, it was a very hard time for me. I wanted to keep my son. And I was only a 17 year old girl and a high school senior. When all this happened and I had no job, I had no money, I, I didn't even have a car. You know, back in those days, kids weren't like they are now. We were pretty naive and, and didn't have that much and my family didn't have a lot of money. We weren't poverty stricken or anything, but we were just your middle class family, you know, and in the deep, the deep South. And anyway, I was made to leave him there in this unwed mother's home. It. It changed me. It almost killed me. I remember I went a little crazy when I got back home. And I was so ashamed. You were so shamed everywhere. It was like the unwed mother's home. Even the way that, even the delivery, you know, you were not treated like the married women that were in the hospital delivering. Everything was like you were less. Because this has happened. Meanwhile, many of these fathers had just gone about their lives and like in my case, knew and still went about, you know, left. And so you're left with parents who are ashamed. They just want to forget it ever happened. You're told in the home you're going to forget it ever happened. You never forget this. You never forget giving birth. You never forget having a child. And that little, that little child, that little baby stayed with me all those years. There's a part in my book which is a. Became a pivotal part. When I am leaving him for the last time, I only got to hold him three times. And when I'm leaving him, I took the birth card that was on his bassinet with his name and, you know, birth date and all that. In fact, it's this little card that's on the COVID of the book.
- [21:45]
B
It's okay. Yeah.
- [21:47]
A
And he, I took it and put in my pocket and I, you know, have had it with me all these years. I mean, I had it all those 50 years. I kept it as a reminder of him. And I would cry silently. Privately. I never talked about it. I was told never talk about this. I was told never speak of this happening. And it will, you know, what will people think of you and all this. So I didn't even tell my other three sons. You know, they grew up. I still didn't tell them. I grew up. I married my second husband. My first husband brought me out here to California. My second husband. And he knew, thank God he knew because that would have been a big shock, you know. But anyway, I had to tell my children. I had to tell my stepchildren. I have two stepchildren. And I had to tell my friends who are close to me and thought they knew everything about me. But I had kept that secret all those years because I was ashamed. I was mourning that child secretly. I didn't know how to talk about it. And it did affect me. And I think it affected my health. I think it affected the way I always felt. I was less. And you wouldn't have known it. I could win Academy Awards because I never. You know, I could pretend like everything was okay, but it wasn't. Every birthday, every holiday, every day, every day, I thought of that child every day.
- [23:24]
B
And your son's birthday as well, would be a date for you personally that no one else would understand the meaning of.
- [23:31]
A
Yes.
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B
Right.
- [23:32]
A
Even my husband, who I'm. You know, I can't even imagine ever being closer to anyone in my life. He's wonderful, but even he didn't realize how deep the wound was.
- [23:46]
B
Right?
- [23:47]
A
And I've learned now that the only people that really understand how deep the wound is are other birth mothers.
- [23:53]
B
For, as you describe this, my. The picture I have in my mind is a dam that holds back water, right? The pressure behind the dam of the water trying to go where it wants to go, but the dams holding it back. This secret feels like a dam that's just holding back who you are and your ability to share with the people you love the most, the people closest to you, they don't understand why certain things bother mom, but that it does. And they're like, why is mom like this? Like, why is it? What is mom keeping from us? That is such this big dam between me and my mom or me and my husband, right? There's just this silent wall that's holding back a bunch of stuff that nobody has any idea what's on the other side of that wall.
- [24:43]
A
Exactly. And what happened was, once I do decide that I have to be honest about this, he's in my life now. He found me, he emailed me, and then we talked that first night for over four hours. We talked about everything, and I came alive. It was like. I don't think I've ever had that kind of joy. Don't get me wrong, my other children have been my life. I love them. From the second I was pregnant with him. I mean, I. I feel like being a mother has been one of the most important things in my. It is the most important thing in my life. If I had to say, okay, what have you done in your life? My sons are my important things. But with this one missing and all of a sudden back in my life. I describe it. I was just listening. I'm editing my audiobook right now. I was just listening to a thing I said in it, in the book. And it's the way I truly feel. It's like him finding me and us connecting was so powerful. It was like that first feeling when you take your newborn home and you're just consumed with love for this, this child, this new person. And you look at this child and you think, I did, I did this. This is me, this is me. This is my child is me. Because you feel like, you know, your children are you, they are you.
- [26:17]
B
Right?
- [26:17]
A
And it was that same feeling, but in front of me was a 50 year old man who had lived a life. So it was this double joy. It's like he had had a good life. He had had, you know, good adoptive parents, he had had, he was educated, he had friends, he had a family, three children who were my new grandchildren that I had never even dreamed of. And so it was this, this huge excitement and it was just beautiful. It was absolutely beautiful. So it relieved me. And for once I realized I could be authentic, I could say what really happened to me. I can be who I really am. And it was a huge, powerful feeling to realize that, that I can be honest about who I really am.
- [27:08]
B
Was it healing for him to, to have time with you in those early days when you guys reconnected as mother and son? Like, what did it do for him? You talk about what it did for you, but what did it do for him to. To now have a conversation with his mother? Like, there'd be so many questions that he would have growing up about you and if he could ever find you and all of that. Right. Like you just for him, he would feel the same way. I would think that you would feel for him a missing piece of who he is, his identity is.
- [27:39]
A
Yes.
- [27:39]
B
He doesn't have any idea who you are, where you are, why you did what you did, all of the situation behind it. You have no idea. Right. So was it healing for him then to. To meet you?
- [27:50]
A
It was tremendous. It was just life changing for both of us. And all of these years he had been told he was adopted from the time he was before he could even remember, he had always known he was adopted. He, he didn't want to find me. He said for years and years and years, he said, I never looked for you. I didn't want to find you. And I was hurt at first. This is in some of our first emails back and forth. I was hurt for A second I was hurt, but then I realized, you know, let that go. Let that go.
- [28:26]
B
Yeah.
- [28:26]
A
And I had always thought if my son found me, he'd be angry that I had given him up, that he would. Would not understand. And that's not the case. He said, how could I ever be angry with you? You gave me life. He was intelligent. He was a brilliant man. And he said, I can't imagine what you went through as a. An unwed teenager in the Deep South. He still lived in Louisiana. And he. You know, he. He knew that I went through a rough time, but he had also been told I was 14 years old. So part of him, his whole life, once he became old enough to think about this, he thought I had. Maybe it was some kind of horrible thing, that I had been raped or some, you know, incest or some awful thing, and that I probably wouldn't want to see him. And so that's why he didn't want to find me. But once I told him the truth and said no, I was 17, and I turned 18 a couple of weeks before he was born, a month before he was born. And I said, you know, I. No, I did want to find you. I wanted you. I wanted to keep you. I did not want to leave my child, and I knew I could do it. I begged to keep him and cried and ranted and did everything that I could to keep him, but I had no power. I had no voice. It didn't matter how I felt. And once he learned that, it helped him to understand better, you know, what had happened. And he was very excited about me writing the book. We joked about it because we laughed a lot. That was one of the great things in our relationship, that we laughed a lot. And we were so much alike. And in some ways, he was more like me than my sons that I've raised, which is kind of weird. And he looked like my family. He looked like me. I always thought he would look like a father. I mean, there were so many surprises. He had. One of his daughters was like a clone of me, you know, he was just in shock over that. And he kept saying, if you saw her at an airport sometime, would you have known this was. She was related to you? And I go, I don't. I don't think so. But this is strange. It was, like, eerie to look for us when we would get together. And it still is. You know, it's like I look at her face and. And I see me, which is strange. But it was beautiful for him because all these things he'd always questioned. I could tell him about who his father was. His father had passed away, but I could tell him who the father was. I could tell him, you know, about my family, our genetics. I could tell him about, you know, his ancestors. And it was just a huge change for both of us in our lives. And to the point that, I mean, it was exhausting. Reunion is so complicated. It's so complicated because you're so overjoyed. You're still scared to death. You walk on eggshells quite a bit. And I've talked to so many other adoptees and birth mothers in the last three years, which has been so rewarding and so helpful for me to understand, you know, where we were all coming from. And. And it's just. It's been a. A good thing to know that our reunion actually was a very good reunion. And not all reunions are. And ours still. It was complicated because he had been raised by other people and I had, you know, I was a different mother. I was a different mother. His mother, his adoptive mother, had died 16 years before he met me, so he hadn't had a mother. And all of a sudden he had a mother. And I would talk to him about things, just like I do my other three sons, who we have history, my other three sons and myself. And I would be talking about things and I would realize he and I are different on this, a lot of us, because we don't have history. And, you know, it was. It was earth shattering for both of us.
- [32:47]
B
So in the book, you'll forget this ever happened. There's. There's another element to the story that I want people to discover as they read your book around your relationship, your renewed relationship with your son. You get them back into your life, and that's exciting for you to reconnect and to rebuild a relationship over 50 years. Gap. Right. But something changes in the story as well that I would love for people to discover as they read your book. But can you kind of just give us a little bit of insight about how the story progressed for you and your son?
- [33:28]
A
Yes. My book was. It ended. I ended the book the first Christmas we spent together. Because, you know, when you write a book, you can't just keep going, especially memoir. It would be like a thousand pages. So you have to just, you know. And another thing for writers to know is that publishers like memoirs to be anywhere from 60,000 words to 90,000. That's the sweet spot. And mine was night. By the time I'd had it edited three times and everything done, it was, I think, 92,000. So I was. And I am over talker and I am overwriter. So I had to end it. And so I ended it at our first Christmas together. And. And we had great, great times for four and a half years. We had beautiful visits back and forth. He brought his family here for Christmas a few times. We went back there for different holidays and stuff. My other sons and, well, our. All of our kids, all five of our kids got to know him. They were all, you know, welcome arms, arms open. My husband was like, immediately, you know, there for him. We felt he was our son. He just fit right in there. He was 2,000 miles away, but he was still visiting. We were visiting back and forth. Well, he went through some really rough times during that time. He ended up getting a divorce, lost a job. You know, different things happened to him that were, you know, life problems and tragic in some ways. And 2020 happens. So all this time we've been able to travel back and forth, back and forth. And with 2020 in the pandemic, right, we did not travel. My husband and I are in our 70s. We were not about to get on a plane and go anywhere. I have asthma. And, you know, back then we were. People were dying, and so we were afraid to travel. But we knew he was going through a really rough time. And so we talked a lot. We talked on the phone, we text, we emailed, we stayed close, we sent pictures. And then I kept saying after, if there's ever a vaccine, I'm going to take it, and I'll be able to fly back there. And with my other children, I've always been able to talk to them. And all of them have gone through rough times. I mean, there's nobody in life that hasn't, especially as young adults and finding your way in the world. So I never realized that my talking to him wasn't enough to help him because he was suffering so much from depression. He felt lost and he was angry over the divorce, and he was all these things. And 2021, the early part of 2021, he took his own life. And this completely changed me again, because here I was thinking I'd been given this gift of having my son, my life, and having him join my other sons. There's no better feeling than knowing where all your children are at night. There's no better feeling than having them all together, to look at them bonding and talking together. And I'm so proud of all my sons. And I was proud of him and almost killed me. The. The grief was the most complicated, hard, hard grief because it was like, almost as if I wished we hadn't had the reunion, which was so wrong because I'm so glad we did have the reunion. I still have my grandchildren in my life. They are part of him, and I'm the part of him for them. You know, I'm what's left of him for them. And I'm so happy that we did have those four and a half beautiful years, that we laughed together. We. We commiserated together. We. We could talk for hours. He was a talker like I am, and it. He was just. He was proud of me as his mom, and it was crushing. So what happened was I almost didn't publish the book because I'd already signed with a publisher. And when this end was the real end, I thought, you know, I'm not putting that out there, because the book ended almost. Almost like a fairy tale the way it ends. Okay? All this happens, and all the good stuff happens at the end. And so I thought, you know what? Maybe I. I just can't publish it because it's too painful. The truth is not. Memoir is supposed to be truth. This was not a true ending. So I was convinced to go ahead by another author. About eight months later, she asked me, how are you and Richard doing? And I had. I told her what happened. She was on the East Coast. I told her what happened, and I said, I'm not publishing the book. And she said, oh, no, no, no, no, no. You can't do this to yourself. You have to publish this book. This book is important for a lot of people to read. She had been one of my beta readers, and sure enough, she talked me into asking the publisher if I could put an epilogue in the book. And of course, the publisher said yes. I love my publisher, by the way. I have to say, Brooke Warner is her name. She is wonderful woman. And anyway, long story short, I published it. And I'm so glad I did. I. I'm so glad that I was able to get over that fear and publish it. Because once again, there's another stigma now layered on all these years of shame and stigma. Here's another one. Because suicide has such a stigma. I'd never dealt with suicide before anyone, no one I loved had ever committed suicide. And it is such an awful grief. It's one of those things that you always say as a parent. I don't know how anyone lives through losing a child. And it's true. Regardless of the age, regardless of the circumstances, it is so hard. But you also Learn that you can live through it and you can. You become a different person. I think you become so less judgmental and so less ashamed of yourself because you. The more you learn about it, you realize that this is not. This is not the whole story. My son's death is not his story. It's not my story. There's so much more there and so many good things there, too. And I listen to my other children, I look at them and my grandchildren, we have 10 grandchildren. And I think, I don't want to be the sad old lady sitting in the corner crying all the time because of this happening. I have so many reasons to be joyful. I have so many reasons to be thankful and grateful. So I look at that as a life thing that happened and made me stronger to be able to live through that and to cherish the memory of the four and a half years I did have with him.
- [41:29]
B
I understand why people are reaching out to you and telling you why this story connects with them. It all makes sense from what you said at the beginning, the response from people from all around the world reaching out and thanking you for the book and for the story. It makes sense that this is a book that people definitely need to not only grab for themselves, but for someone else in their life. There's probably people listening to our conversation more and they're like, I know someone who has put their child up for adoption when they were young. I know that someone that listening has been adopted and has been searching for their birth parent their entire life and frustrated. I know people that are listening who have questions about, you know, why was I surrendered or why did I have to give up my child. There's people wrestling with this even today. So this book will be a great companion for them and maybe hope as well to. To find that person in your life that you're missing. I just think it's a. It's a timely conversation for people and that's why people are connecting with it so much, is it's deeply personal but really relatable to someone else who's feeling like they're on a similar path that you've been on. So all of those days where you struggled with should I do this or not? I'm glad that you stick stuck with it and made this happen for us because it's going to help even more people than you'll ever know. So it's amazing.
- [43:04]
A
Thank you. I think it was meant to be. And I have to tell you this really funny little thing. I thought I'd never be able to write another book because that book just took so much out of me because it was so personal. It was like it took my guts out and rung them and threw them away. I mean, my heart was broken so many times while I was writing it. I would have to stop writing. I'd be sitting at the computer with tears running down my eyes, and I'd have to stop and go outside because I think, this is not 1967. Hello. And get myself back to normal. But my parents, in many parts of the book, are not painted in the best light because got to remember I was a teenager at that time. Couldn't understand how they could do this to me and to my. Their first grandchild. But the book I'm writing now is. Is a totally different kind of book. It's fiction based on true stories from my father, and it's basically the love story of my parents. So I always think, well, see, now he wanted me to write a book, so now I'm getting a book, you know, and it's, it's. It's telling their whole story, not just this, you know, portion of their lives when they had to deal with what was going on at that time. But yeah, it's, it's. It's a really amazing thing to write your story, whether you publish it or not. I encourage everyone to. It makes. Even if you just write to yourself a journal or something and you understand yourself so much better and you understand why you feel the way you do and what happened to you along the way.
- [44:51]
B
Laura, I could talk to you all day. I love having you on the show. Thank you for being so deeply personal with us as well. You're not, you're not hiding behind anything. And I think that dam we talked about earlier, I think that water is flowing. It's not restricted anymore. And the more people that hear the story, the more people we can help as well. So thank you for taking us behind the scenes and into your story and sharing it in such a personal way. The impact is real and I love that people are connecting with you for people to do that as well. Laura, where do you want to send them for your website and to follow your journey as an author as you continue to write? Where can we send our listeners?
- [45:34]
A
My website is Laura L Engle.com and it's spelled E N G E L. And the name of my book is you'll forget this ever happened. Secrets, Shame and adoption in the 1960s. But it's so much more than just that. And, and like I said, I love for people to readers. I love connecting with readers and I love connecting with other writers. And just you can write me at Laura L. Engel.com Excellent.
- [46:11]
B
And I heard you mention an audiobook in the works, which is great. I love audiobooks. And the fact that you're going to continue writing my ask for you, and I usually ask my. My guest this. You kind of jumped it, and I love that you did that, that you're still working on new projects. The reason I asked what my guest Next Chapter is the name of my show, but also because I want to know that there's more things coming from you as a writer. I. The reason I always ask my guests this is because I selfishly want more time with you and I want to have you back in the future to celebrate the next thing. So, yeah, can you give us a little bit of a spoiler on what you're working on without giving away too much? You said it was about your parents, which is great.
- [46:51]
A
That.
- [46:51]
B
Do you have a timeline? What do you got for us?
- [46:53]
A
Well, yeah, it. It actually starts in 1928.
- [46:57]
B
Wow.
- [46:58]
A
It's when my father is born. And it takes place in Biloxi, Mississippi, where I'm from. And it, it is a interesting story in the fact that the way my father meets my mother is truly. It's by Quint. It's by accident. It's synchronicity, I should say. The synchronicity of him finally meeting her and he's a teenager when he meets her. You got to remember this is 1946 when they meet. And it's not all about his childhood, but it starts with his birth. And I wrote that because I was writing all this other stuff. And I thought, I just want to set the scene because my grandmother, who plays a huge part in my book, you'll forget this ever happened. My grandma, she is one of the main characters in my first book. Well, she's a main character again in Daddy's Story, of course, but it's a love story. It has humor in it. My reading group loves it, which I didn't know if they would, because once again, as a writer, you're thinking, who's going to let her read this? It's my daddy's stories that he told me. And they're so fascinated. They're so cute. They'll say, how did you think of this character? I go, no, that person is for real. That is a real character. I knew that person. And they'll say, wow, these, these names you come up with, I go, those are their real names. So, I mean, it's just been a real fun thing writing this compared to writing my first book. And, you know, I'm probably in the second draft of it right now.
- [48:38]
B
Good.
- [48:38]
A
So it will be. It will be a book one day, and I would love to come back on your show. I love your podcast and I appreciate so much being able to talk to you and get to know you well.
- [48:50]
B
You're an amazing guest. I encourage you to keep doing this guesting thing because the more people who can hear about you and what you're writing about, the better. I just love how you show up in this world, Laura, and what you're writing, and I just. I'm cheering you on up here in Canada. I'm thinking this is really great. We need more writers like you. And, yeah, just keep writing. Don't stop. You're. You got a gift, Laura, and I'm thankful you could come share your gift with us today.
- [49:17]
A
Thank you so much, Dave.
- [49:18]
B
Excellent, everyone. All information, as always, in the show notes. I'd really encourage you when you buy, not if. When you buy this book. It's holiday season coming up at the time of recording, grab a copy for yourself. Grab a copy for someone you know and love who's also going to love this book. Buy two copies. Leave reviews as well. Let people know why you love these books. Right. Let's share exactly what from the story, from the writer, from the tone of the book, something that spoke to you as a reader so that more people will find Laura, fall in love with her book. You'll forget this ever happened. It's a touching book that we all need in our lives. And, you know, somebody's going to love this. So definitely share this and share Laura's website with them as well. Laura, thank you so much for being on the show.
- [50:04]
A
Thank you. Thank you. Dan Foreign.
- [50:09]
B
Hey, thank you so much again for pressing play. As you've heard, great guests on the show and one thing you didn't hear in this conversation is what? What did you not hear? Think about it for a second. That's right. Not a single solitary commercial for a mattress or a supplement or whatever you call it. No. Why? Because we don't want to break up the conversation with commercials. So the fact that you're still here means that you are a fan of the show, I'm assuming. So if you want to help to keep the podcast going and to make me feel really happy, all I really care about is coffee. Okay. I just got to be honest. I love coffee. I'm drinking one right now. Starting to get cold. I need. I need to warm it up. Helping us with our Buy me a coffee link over at living the next chapter.com and also in the show notes helps kind of keep the lights on around here. Remember, I'm doing this for free. I. I'm paying for everything, so I would love to have a little coffee donation. You know, even five bucks kind of fills up my cup. And I would love to enjoy a coffee from you. So if you're interested. Again, thank you for listening, but you can use our Buy me a coffee link and fill up the cup. Thanks for being here.