← Living The Next Chapter: Candid Conversations with Authors and Writers for Readers Searching for a New Read
Living The Next Chapter: Candid Conversations with Authors and Writers for Readers Searching for a New Read
E697 - Rae Dumont - In the Shadow of Silence - A Novel of love and joy leading to the descent of untreated depression and unbearable loss
00:54:15
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- [00:03]
A
So, you know, actually, there are two audiences I would like to address. Right. And we've already sort of touched on that. So one person I would like to address is the person who's struggling and feeling unworthy and feeling nobody gets it and nobody understands. And to you, I would say, hold that thought. Don't take that thought immediately too seriously. You know, depression is an illness that goes through. It's not a straight line. And there definitely are days and weeks that feel worse. So on one of those weeks, just. Or days or nights, don't wholeheartedly buy that message that all is lost. Just don't give it a little bit of time. And then you probably won't feel like talking to anybody about it. But in the morning or the next day when you don't feel quite so wretched, go and talk to somebody. Talk to someone else who knows what depression is. Or talk to your therapist or talk to your friends or go fishing with your buddy or talk to your wife about it. Talk about it. Widen your horizon. Because when the horizon closes in is when that suffering becomes most unbearable and seems inevitable. So to people suffering from depression, I would say, don't buy into that. Just promise yourself on a bad day to have another look. And then to all of the people who, you know, I've worked with so many families where the family had to struggle with someone's illness or depression or whatever it was. And there is a thing that happens where your friends might say to you, so how is your husband or your dad? Sometimes people forget to ask, so how are you? So how are you coping with this? This can't be easy. So, you know, perhaps in your daily life, not a whole lot of people come up to you and say, so how are you coping with your husband's XYZ or your dad's xyz? So I'm just going to say this to you right now. I'm asking you if you have someone that you worry about, how are you? How are you? Because I know it's hard for you, too. And I'm quite sure half the time you don't know if you're doing the right thing or the wrong thing or too much or too little. I know that you're not alone. And again, go talk to someone. You know, there are other people who are in that helper position. You're not alone. Go talk to someone.
- [03:17]
B
Welcome back to Living the Next Chapter. It's an author podcast. We get to talk to some amazing people. I think our conversation today is going to be really helpful as well, Ray Dumont's on with the show with us today to talk about her journey. She writes a lot of different things. If you like short stories, you'll fall in love with that fiction. A lot of great stuff. And Ray's here to talk about her book. And I've had a chance to go through it. It's powerful. It's, it's, it's definitely thought provoking and it's going to help you as a family member to navigate some pretty, pretty dark days. And for you who may be struggling and nobody knows or you don't think anybody can help, our conversation today could be very helpful. So, Ray Dumont, thank you so much for making time to be on the show. Welcome to the podcast.
- [04:05]
A
Well, thank you for inviting me. I'm glad to be here today.
- [04:10]
B
It's excellent to have you here, Ray. Let's start here. Where are you in this great big world of ours?
- [04:15]
A
I'm on the east coast of the United States of North America.
- [04:20]
B
Excellent. That gives us some kind of context. Right.
- [04:24]
A
And specifically, currently I, I live in New Jersey in what is fondly called a. Viewed as a suburb of Manhattan, but we're in New Jersey.
- [04:35]
B
Okay. And fall is definite upon you there, where you live?
- [04:38]
A
Oh, yes, fall and all the fall viruses. You heard about those, right?
- [04:43]
B
Well, that's always fun. Yeah.
- [04:45]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [04:46]
B
Well, just thank you for making time to be on the show. I'm glad to have you here. One thing I like to do at the beginning of every episode is honor the authors that are listening. They're here looking for inspiration from a fellow author, a writer, because maybe the person listening is brand new to their journey of writing. They don't know what they don't know. And having time with a published author is a joy for them. So I was curious to ask if you could talk to the audience that are authors about some inspiration from your perspective, that we can encourage an author that's listening. What would you say to a relatively new author just to kind of get them going on their journey in writing?
- [05:30]
A
Well, that's such an interesting question. I have to translate your question a little bit because I came to writing this book because it just demanded to be written. So it just grabbed me and it wouldn't let go until about two years after it grabbed me. It was ready to be sent out. So. And not all writing, I'm sure, is like that. But I can only share how it works for me. My interest is in writing what I know to be true. I don't write necessarily to entertain, although I Certainly hope that the language is pleasing and. And I hope that the story is appeal and that it is entertaining to read. But I primarily write because I want to get at what's true. And you know, my big hero would be James Baldwin, who, Who wrote about, always about what he knew to be true underneath all the things that we see. And so maybe that also speaks to how I came to write a novel. I wanted to write what I knew to be true about families. And what. Because I've been a family therapist for years and prior to that I was a pediatrician for many, many years. So what I've learned is true is that no person is an island. And so I didn't need to describe historically or precisely any event, any specific events that I had seen unfold. I needed to get underneath that, at what some of the fundamental truths are, if that makes any sense. So in the Shadow of Silence as a novel and its intention is to speak truth to the journey of mental health and being a family with someone in the family who is struggling with mental health or actually with any illness. But mental health in this case.
- [08:04]
B
Okay, yeah. It's a very poignant story that you share. In the Shadow of Silence. Again, I've had a chance to go through it myself and I believe the book is coming out in February, is that correct?
- [08:21]
A
That's right, the seventh.
- [08:22]
B
So I am one of the lucky few to have eyes on this in advance. So I appreciate that. Thank you so much. Yeah.
- [08:32]
A
If I might add, it is available as of tonight for pre order on a variety of sites.
- [08:38]
B
Good. Well, there you go, everybody, as you
- [08:41]
A
hear or as a print or as an ebook, it's. If someone wants to check it out, it's available to have a look at and to pre order.
- [08:51]
B
Okay, excellent. That's great. As you listen to this, by the time you hear this, it's ready for you in pre order already in, in February. So make sure you grab a copy of this for. For the audience. Ray, I know this is a deeply personal story that you're writing about, but at some point we want this book to connect with people. We want this novel to be read. If you could kind of outline in your mind who you think would be an audience that would be receptive to this story. Who do you kind of have in mind?
- [09:26]
A
That's an excellent question. And actually I, in the process of writing, I was always very conscious of who I was writing this for. And of course that evolves as you write a novel. It evolves. It, you know, it goes through it morphs its shape. But the intention was always to provide maybe some insight, certainly a lot of compassion and hopefully a sense of being less isolated. To anyone that has struggled with depression. Many people do that. Depression's on the rise. Anxiety's on the rise in this world, and for a variety of reasons we don't have to go into. But struggling in these ways with darkness or anxiety is on the rise. And I wanted to speak to people who struggle with that to show them that they are not alone, that there is help out there, and there are people who care and people who love them. Even if they don't think there's anyone loving them, there are people who love them and who care. And so I wanted to reach out to folks who might be struggling to say, just reach out. Get some help. It exists. Don't try to do this alone. And the other people I had in mind in writing is the family members. You know, whether you have in a family system, whether someone is struggling with, you know, rheumatoid arthritis or cancer or a mental illness, it always affects everybody else because we live in relationship. And so every relationship is affected by that suffering. And the thing about being a helper, or, say, the spouse of a man who's depressed, which is the topic of in the Shadow of Silence, or the son or daughter of someone who's sinking deeply into depression, all these people go through various emotions that I try to capture. And again, I tried to write that as truly as I could because people feel funny about having these emotions, like, why am I angry at my dad? I've been told he's suffering, but I'm just pissed. Well, you're not alone. You're pissed because you can't reach him, right? Or I'm trying to help. I'm doing my best. I'm pretty good at doing my best. I actually know something about how to help someone like you. And you're not listening to me. Have I done something wrong, or is this about me in the first place? So these are just a couple of examples of how family members are really in turmoil. When someone they deeply love is struggling like that, they might feel guilty or inadequate or feel they've done too much or too little. So I tried to capture all of that.
- [12:52]
B
So you're focused on the family ripple effects. But also, is there a portion of in the Shadow of Silence that speaks to the person who's wrestling as well?
- [13:04]
A
Yes. Yes, there is. And perhaps in. In two different ways. Early in the. In the novel, when the first identifiable bout of depression occurs, the man Struggles. I don't want to go to therapy. I don't need that. I'm a self sufficient guy, you know, I can do this myself. There's nothing wrong with me. Yeah, I'm just little quiet sometimes.
- [13:39]
B
Right.
- [13:40]
A
Then he notices at that point his children are young and he notices that his mood are having an impact, especially on the littlest one who bursts into tears. And the older ones are just becoming fed up with dad, but the little one's tears, that makes an impact.
- [14:00]
B
Wow.
- [14:01]
A
Watching his little girl tries so hard not to upset him and to make him feel better with the help of the wife, he sees that and he decides to go to treatment. So there's an entire section tracing how treatment works, what the options are, you know, to use or not to use medication, which is only ever an adjunct to other work. Right. So things like individual therapy, looking a little bit at your roots and what there might be in there to understand that would help you overcome this dark time or look at your relationships. There was a little bit of couples therapy in the novel in the course of the man's recovery. And so I was hoping to show that that whole process, the talking, therapy, all of it, eventually the medication, exercising maybe, or maybe some awareness training, any and all of those things have their place. And it's hard work, but when it is effective, it gives a person their life back. So that's one major message in my book, which is that look at the life this family had when he got well. They have these amazing adventures and the kids grow up and they're fun and everybody works together and yeah, they might have disagreements, but people always have disagreements. They work them through and they're just a loving family until out of the blue he stops his treatment. So perhaps another message is, and it's pretty explicit in the novel, sometimes people are truly just done with treatment and they know they're done. Maybe they're in fact over the whole episode, maybe they've got such a toolkit now that they don't need all those professionals anymore. They're done with that, that's fine. But I have a message there that says don't do it alone. Do that alone either. Have some help and monitor as you come off to make sure that everything's okay.
- [16:35]
B
Yeah, the idea of I can handle this myself, I don't need any help, I'm pushing back. It seems to be, unfortunately, when the men that I know, kind of a commonality across men that they're not as apt to seek help in all situations, medically, mentally, with their Diet relationships. I got this. My vision of this, Ray would be when you're. When you see that person struggling to carry all of their groceries and parcels from the car to the house in one trip. Because I am not gonna make two trips. I'm gonna do this in one shot. I'm gonna shut the trunk of my car with my forehead or my foot, and I'm gonna drag all this in one shot. One shot. There's no way I'm doing two. I got this, right? And you're like, can I help you? No, no, no, no, no. I got this. And I see that as kind of how we live life, is we're trying to carry all these packages and all this stuff. There's people, the ability to help you, but you are so either hyper fixated on the fact that you can take care of yourself and you don't need any help in life, or you don't want to be embarrassed that you have a weakness that you have to display, requiring someone to step into your life and give you help. And I just have this visual of that person with all these bags making their way to the door. Right. Does that resonate?
- [18:04]
A
If I'm allowed, I might borrow that in my work.
- [18:08]
B
Please.
- [18:09]
A
That's a great image. And of course, in our culture in general, it's not just men, but it is primarily men who are victimized by that view that you're somehow less than or weaker or less worthy. If you can't do it alone, all at once, pick up that mountain and just move it by yourself.
- [18:32]
B
I am seeing more, as generations change, that more men are being accepting help than traditionally back generations before us. My father, my father's father. The world is getting different, and I'm seeing it more accepted. And one thing I think, too, as. As men, specifically, as it relates to your book, is that we are not just living for ourselves. We're living for our family. And we are on a platform and our children are learning from our example. So if we refuse treatment and we refuse help and we refuse any of this stuff, what lessons are we teaching our family, our children? Right?
- [19:16]
A
And again, you know, that is such a fabulous point and one I was hoping to make. And in the shadow of silence. And I make it there in two different ways. One is when things really go sour, we begin to learn more in the novel about the family history of the man. And so in his family in particular, was one of those families where there was a lot of depression and a suicide. And he grew up with it being forbidden territory. It just was not talked about. And his own father, you know, which happens to too many people and so hard to talk about, but his own father, with his moods, was actually traumatic for his sons. And Lyman, the character in my book, says early in his therapy, I promised myself I wouldn't be like my father, that I would be better for my kids. And he does for a while, but then. But then he. He slips away and slips out of his treatment and, And. And it's the rest of the family that's left to muse on the fact that there was a precedent to this in the family, but it was never talked about. At the end of the book, one of Lyman's sons has to grapple with his own depression, and his brother says, the least we can do, the least we owe our father, is to address our own problems as they come up. So I do think children, and even adolescents and young adults learn from what they see and that it's a good role model to show that you're not a lesser person, but a bigger person if you're able to seek help and get well and do better by everybody.
- [21:39]
B
Yeah. And then the idea too, that, like, I'm. I'm now a grandfather. I have three adult children. I'm kind of that empty nest stage of life. And for me, I just. I don't think our kids understand that we're just human beings at the end of the day. Like, we. We, even though we have a title of mother, father, grandfather, grandmother, whatever that is, we are still just humans. We're still trying to navigate life, figure out who we are. There's. I did an episode on one of my other shows called dad Space, and I talked about post turtles. Now, I don't know if you've ever heard of a post turtle, but it's basically a turtle on top of a fence post who's kind of got all four legs all kind of moving, and somebody's put them on top of a fence post. There's no. There's no way they got there on their. On their own. Somebody put them there on purpose. Right. And they're up there in precarious position, and they. They're kind of stranded. They're just there by someone else's choice. And as. As adults, we get given titles like dad and mom, but we're learning on the job. We don't know. Even though we just been given this title because we have a baby or we've adopted or something, we. We are now given a title, and we have to work our way into the title. Like on the Job training. Just because someone gave you a title doesn't mean you know what you're doing. So I think our children also need to realize that as adults, as their parents, we're still finding our own humanity identity, and we're still working through things in real time while being a leader, which is a really hard thing to do.
- [23:17]
A
It is a hard thing to do. And Eva, who's the main character, the wife, goes through all of that. She's doing her best, trying to figure out how she needs to cope with this situation and, and how to be real with her kids about what's going on. And she says a number of times, I'm sorry, sometimes I'm not sure what to do. I did my best. Maybe I did the wrong thing. So, you know, we are all human and we do our best. And I think as a parent, and this is true in my book, but also in my work in my office as a family therapist, it's helpful when parents know how to say I'm sorry. You know, when they know how to say, well, maybe I make. Made a mistake, let's try that again, or well, I did my best. I'm listening. Maybe we can find a better solution because, yeah, I don't want to be. What did you call it? A post Turtle.
- [24:30]
B
There's a visual for you. Yes.
- [24:32]
A
Oh, man. That's a.
- [24:35]
B
It's like, how did it get there? It didn't do upon its own. Right. Yeah. I think the other thing too, about living, living our lives in front of our children, I talk about in content creation. We build in public, we. We build our lives, we build what we do in front of people. We bring people along for the journey. We don't just show them the result. So I think as we, as we demonstrate the humanity that we have in this walk, this journey we have, I just think it opens the door for people to, to see us struggle and win and fail and rebuild. Right. All of that's healthy for people to see, not just what we care to show people. This whole idea that I don't need help, I don't need support, I don't need help counseling, I don't need medical intervention, I don't need to see a doctor for my physicals. These are all elements of, I got this and I don't need anybody's else support. And again, I just think that can be a little dangerous for children to grow up in a home where dad never took care of himself or asked for help. You know, again, I just, that that's the thing. I Just want people listening to kind of go as a dad, as a man, as a parent, as a mom. Make sure that you don't hide your. Your journey from your kids.
- [26:00]
A
Absolutely. And, you know, there's a lot being said and written about how these days people are more isolated, you know, and of course, some of that has to do with these things. Right, right. And with living, in some ways, a very public life. But the snapshots, the very edited best pictures on social media. So, you know, of course there is. I think there's good evidence that there's more sense of isolation and more sense of never being quite good enough. And I do agree with you, as a parent, one of the things we can do is model just being connected, being human, doing our best, being willing to not be perfect and still recognize that's not. It's not about being good enough. It's about being who you are and doing that as well as you can.
- [27:05]
B
Yeah. The other part, too, that I got from reading your book was the idea about when you're under care and you're seeing someone and talking and they're helping you or you're on medicine and medication, whatever that is, mentally, for your mental health, your physical health, there comes a point when the medicine's working and it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do. And again, it could be physically or mentally. Your doctor prescribed this for a reason, and it's. It's working like you feeling better. And in that moment, you're like, well, maybe I don't need this medicine because I'm feeling so much better. So I'm going to stop the medicine and all of the great impacts, and it works. I'm going to, because I feel so good. I'm just going to stop and go off it and go on my own. And in that moment, you've now undone all of the things that are working for your betterment by just walking away from what's working in the moment.
- [28:00]
A
Right. I think maybe I should invite you to sit in my cup.
- [28:05]
B
I can tell you from this perspective, I have asthma. I've had asthma since I was 10 years old. I'm 57. And if I go off my asthma medicine because it's working, I can tell you within one to two days, I'm going to slide right back to where I was. I'm not going to be able to breathe. I could end up in the hospital because I'm obstinate enough to go, I'm fine. I got this. My medicine's great. I'm good. I'm feeling healthy. My wife's like, don't you dare. Right? Don't you dare. Right. So I have a good person in my corner. Right. I have somebody in my corner. So I see it from that perspective. So when I'm reading it in your book, my correlation would be my asthma for me.
- [28:43]
A
Yes.
- [28:44]
B
Right. So that's kind of how I kind of. As I'm reading, I'm kind of seeing myself that way.
- [28:48]
A
And of course, somehow or another, by trying to go off, you have acquired the wisdom that says, you know that. At least apparently you know that, and. And so does your wife, that maybe that's not such a good thing to impulsively do. But you learn that the hard way through trial and error. And, you know, there is nothing wrong with wanting to not need this.
- [29:20]
B
Yes.
- [29:21]
A
It's not even just about pride. It's inconvenient. Another thing you have to remember, oh, God, that inhaler. I'm on the top of this mountain. I forgot to, you know, that's for your asthma or whatever. Right. So it's inconvenient. It's. Oh, do I. Do I do this in front of people? All of that. So of course people are going to try. You know, as a mental health provider, I no longer prescribe medication, but I did for a long time. And so often I would hear this. Yeah, I tried to go on vacation without it, and, you know, it took six days. And then I felt like, so of course people are going to try this. And because I'm also hoping my book will be helpful to mental health providers, I will say this, that I deeply believe that whatever the person I'm trying to treat is feeling is legitimate. And that as a helper, I don't do anybody any good by lecturing from on high, pointing my finger and say, well, you know, you should never. So, you know, if Lyman in the novel had gone to one of his providers, and I hope they were good, I portrayed them as being good ones. They're not all good, but he had good providers. I would hope they wouldn't have said, you fool. That would have said, yeah, I understand why you might want to try. Now. In order to do that safely, let's make a plan.
- [30:59]
B
Right, right.
- [31:00]
A
Right.
- [31:01]
B
Yes, that's right.
- [31:02]
A
As a team, let's do this cooperatively or collaboratively and just agree on what we're going to track. If you can't breathe, that probably wasn't a good idea.
- [31:16]
B
No.
- [31:17]
A
Yeah. What can we track that comes a little before you can't breathe?
- [31:22]
B
Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, that's kind of, that was my context as I was reading, I was putting myself into the story and. Which is easy to do as a reader, by the way, for anyone listening. As you read Ray's book, you're going to be able to insert yourself or someone, you know, an experience you've had. You can find yourself in this book as well. There's a lot of ways to identify and some really great points in the book that really going to bring you in. One of the things too, I thought that we should talk about, Ray, is the ripple effect of, of a choice where you in the moment might feel like you're the only one in the world dealing with something and that nobody understands you. And yeah, people say nice things, people seem kind, but there's just this feeling, this overwhelming feeling that nobody really understands me and I'm alone on this planet. And we shared before we had record. What I love about podcasting is that somebody's listening to us right now and nobody knows what they're listening to. They might be on the bus, they might be at work, they might be in the room full of people and they're listening to our conversation about your book. Right. And hearing some life giving words that might help change some perspective. So I'm going to kind of take a back seat here for a second, Ray, and I'd love for you to talk to that person who's listening with their earbuds right now and they don't know their next turn, their next step. This book has got, it's a story, but it's got a lot of information that can really help. So if you could talk to that person just for a few moments about their journey and give them some, give them something that they can hang on to today.
- [33:18]
A
So, you know, actually there are two audiences I would like to address. Right. And we've already sort of touched on that. So one person I would like to address is the person who's struggling and feeling unworthy and feeling nobody gets it and nobody understands. And to you, I would say hold that thought. Don't take that thought immediately too seriously. You know, depression is an illness that goes through. It's not a straight line. And there definitely are days and weeks that feel worse than. So on one of those weeks, just. Or days or nights, don't wholeheartedly buy that message that all is lost. Just don't give it a little bit of time and then you probably won't feel like talking to anybody about it. But in the morning or the next day when you don't feel quite so wretched. Go and talk to somebody. Talk to someone else who knows what depression is. Or talk to your therapist. Therapist. Or talk to your friends or go fishing with your buddy or talk to your wife about it. Talk about it. Widen your horizon. Because when the horizon closes in is when that suffering becomes most unbearable and seems inevitable. So to people suffering from depression, I would say, don't buy into that. Just promise yourself on a bad day to have another look. And then you. To all of the people who. You know, I've worked with so many families where the family had to struggle with someone's illness or depression or whatever it was. And there is a thing that happens where your friends might say, do you. So how is your husband or your dad? Sometimes people forget to ask, so how are you? So how are you coping with this? This can't be easy. So, you know, perhaps in your daily life, not a whole lot of people come up to you and say, so how are you coping with your husband's XYZ or your dad's xyz? So I'm just going to say this to you right now. I'm asking you if you have someone that you worry about, how are you? How are you? Because I know it's hard for you, too. And I'm quite sure half the time you don't know if you're doing the right thing or the wrong thing or too much or too little. I know that you're not alone. And again, go talk to someone. You know, there are other people who are in that helper position. You're not alone. Go talk to someone.
- [36:32]
B
Okay. For. With your background, this would be a interesting answer from you and the people you've served throughout your career. For the children impacted by something that's happened within their family, you talked about the tears of a little girl and makes you want to go get help, right? There's this. You. We talked about the fact that we're always on display as parents. We're teaching as we learn, and our kids are picking up all the cues for them to. How to navigate life as an adult once they get to where we are. When tragedy finds its way into your home. And for the children, like you talked about the sons wrestling with their own depression. How. How do we find the strength to move forward when it's that ripple effect now in the family, that part. Can we touch on that a little bit, please?
- [37:37]
A
Yeah. You know, and there are two phases to that. You mentioned tragedy, right? So let's break it down in time. There is. Before the tragic event.
- [37:48]
B
Yes.
- [37:49]
A
All that lengthy coping with, and hopefully it never comes to a tragedy. But we don't know that. When people live through that, they don't know that. And you mentioned the children. Of course. As a pediatrician and a family therapist, I was always focused on the children. And I would often work with families where the parents might think, well, we don't have to burden the kids with this. They don't need to know. They don't need to hear all this. To which I'd say, they already know all this. Right. You don't have to use words to say, daddy's not well.
- [38:30]
B
Right.
- [38:31]
A
You don't, you know, you don't have to. Or take another situation. Families deciding about divorce. The kids always know before it is mentioned. And one of the things I fairly often did in my practice is sit down on the floor with the kids and a huge piece of paper and draw a map of their family. And the kids were the bosses. The parents couldn't talk, so the kids got to assign a color marker to each person. And then they would decide which person. Each person would be represented by a color circle. So let's say dad was going to be green and mom was going to be red. So the kids would debate with each other and decide where mom should draw her red circle and where dad should draw his green circle and how big, really. And then the kids would proceed to put themselves on that paper in relation, close or far to each of their parents, and then got to draw the conflict line, you know, the stuff that hits the fan. And they also got to draw sunny love lines. And the parents almost universally went, oh, my God, the kids have it. They know. So this is one message. Kids know. Right? You don't have to tell them. They already know. And I hope that's. I mean, I'm saying all that in the hope that's a comfort to parents. The kids already know. So the question is, how can you talk about it with them in a way that is comforting, you know, that. That allows them to speak in that particular little exercise? The parents weren't allowed to speak. Right. They just got. They got to listen and they got to, you know, notice how much they didn't know. The kids knew. Now, you did mention the tragedy. And I've also worked with families that had to cope with the tragedy afterwards. And, you know, there. I would say every person reacts differently. Every individual is going to react according to who they already were or according to where their place was on that map or who they were in relation to everybody else. And it's helpful to find a space where that could be talked about in a way that makes room for each of these roles. In in the Shadow of Silence, the little girl after the tragedy is the one who's most furious. She is furious because she feels she got abandoned and the idiot ruined our summer. So, okay, in the book, but in real life, too, the person who feels that that's okay. That's okay. And the way you're going to get through this tragedy is if you allow each other to have whatever feelings you have and you don't have to argue about what the proper or the correct response is to the tragedy. They're as many responses as there are people, and then some. So, so that would be my thought there to, to just make room for each other's reactions. Don't get impatient. Just take your time. Talk or don't talk. If you're not a talker, journal about it. Send letters to each other. Find the professional to talk to. Or don't go for. Go for hikes in the woods if that's your thing.
- [42:27]
B
Make yourself a priority. Be a little bit selfish. You know, this is your time to, to unplug from all the other activities and make time for yourself.
- [42:39]
A
Correct. And as a parent yourself, you know.
- [42:42]
B
Right. Good luck with that.
- [42:44]
A
Right. Good luck with that. Right. Yeah. No, the parent. I. That's in my novel as well. The mother can't even get around to her own grief or her own reactions because she's just busy running around like a chicken without a head trying to take care of her first. Right. So, but, and I think there's probably nothing wrong with that. Her own grief reaction comes later because in the crisis, what else is she going to do but take care of the, the younger ones? So that's a. She has, I hope everyone remembers to have the voices in her life to say, okay, your turn now. How about you? Yeah, at some point, and you know, some point, the middle child reminds her of that. Hey, mom, how about you? What. What are you going to do?
- [43:42]
B
Right? There's. Yeah, there's a lot of guilt and anger associated to, to this part of the story as well. For family, extended family. There are people that are not even connected to your family that are going to be impacted by absolute. You. The, the ripple effect is again, going back to that from, from your book, the ripple effect you have no control over. And one pond, one. One stone thrown into a pond. That ripple is going to go to shores that you have no idea would ever go to. Right. So just, Just have that in your mind, too, that there are substantial people impacted.
- [44:25]
A
That's right. And, you know, I'm thinking I was recently rereading Norwegian Wood, Haruki Murakami. And it is about that ripple effect and a very different isolation of people. They're not even relevant, but it's an eerie way of describing, you know, the years, the after effect of the tragedy on other people. And there was a movie made about that. What was it called? The Big Chill. So, you know, the ripple effects, I described them within a family, but it goes much further. Co workers, the person you meet at the grocery store who doesn't understand, who blames you. You know, the ripple effects are large. And I do feel that. Well, I'll put it this way. When people in the last two or three years have asked me, so what are you writing a book about? If I was brave enough to tell them, then almost universally I'd get a response that said, oh, yeah, something like that happened in my family. Or, oh, yeah, you know, I had a friend in college and it never made any sense. And we really, none of us knew how to talk about it. And. And, yeah, it's. Yeah. So every time I actually answer what my book is about, someone says, oh, yeah, I know a story like that. Or a friend of mine got depressed and ended his life when I was in college. And none of us ever understood. And we still think about it. So, yeah, yeah, the ripple effect is large.
- [46:24]
B
And if we reverse the ripple effect, we can reach people who need us. We could be the other way. Right.
- [46:33]
A
I. I really do believe that. I do believe that none of this, not the depression, nor the being a family member or the helper or the survivor of a difficult time, none of that should be done alone.
- [46:48]
B
Right.
- [46:48]
A
Right. I mean, some people prefer to do it alone. Right. I don't.
- [46:53]
B
All the bags, I got them all. Yeah, Right.
- [46:57]
A
And I've got room on my head one. So. But that's not necessarily helpful. First of all, it's not a nice role model.
- [47:06]
B
No, no.
- [47:08]
A
Right. If I can do it alone, then I'm teaching my sons, but really everybody, my daughters, everybody, that the right thing to do is to do it alone. So one of the messages I hope comes from reading my book is, you're not alone. Nobody is alone, and you shouldn't be alone. Even if you don't want to talk about it, you're not alone. Whether you're in the shoes of the person who's depressed or whether you're in the shoes of the helper. You're not alone.
- [47:43]
B
Right? Right. It's beautiful. In the shadow of silence Everyone. Ray Dumont is the author. It's a great book. Again, I've had an advance copy and I'm super thrilled that I was entrusted to have that. Thank you, Ray. And to go through it, I just. Again, there's so many opportunities when reading that you just feel like you can put your own situation. You talk about people are like, oh yeah, that happened in my family or I knew someone as you read this, then just kind of keep this close to you and share this with somebody because that person that you. The one thing about depression that I. I find very interesting, Ray, is that it's not always the people who are somber or withdrawn that are depressed. There are people who are the life of the party who come in and just light up a room. And that's the most confusing is they're so happy. Like they have everything. They have fortune and fame and they're a movie star or they got money and they just, or whatever. They just, they're just the funniest, happiest people you've ever met. And then the shock because we just, we seem to associate depression with inwardly focused, withdrawn, A person off on their own who doesn't want any interaction. But how confusing is it when someone is like the life of the party? Right?
- [49:12]
A
I really appreciate you making that point. And of course in my book the. The person who is depressed becomes in drown. But you're absolutely so right. That's not the only way it shows. Depression has many, many faces and it can be very, very, very confusing. And people around the person who's suffering and may or may not actually really know that they're suffering. They might be confused, they might just have alarm bells going, but not really know. So depression has many faces and, and one of the things when a tragedy happens is everyone else feels guilty about what they missed, about what they didn't do or did do or should have done or shouldn't have done. And so if I have a message here is that the thing is multifaced, it. Depression is. And no, nobody really is alone with it and none of the helpers are really alone with it and it's confusing. And reach out.
- [50:25]
B
That's great, Ray. Let's talk about your website before we go. I could talk to you all day. I know you have other things to do and I really appreciate and honor your time. Your website, Ray. And then again, remind us when the book is available for release for everyone and the pre release the details around the book again, but your website, Ray, please.
- [50:44]
A
My website. Wish I could type this, but I'm sure you can somewhere. It's Ray Dumont writing.org it the book comes out on February 17th, I see
- [51:02]
B
here on your website.
- [51:03]
A
Right?
- [51:04]
B
Yeah.
- [51:04]
A
Right. And. And it is already posted for pre order on a number of sites. My website contains some of the material of the book and it also has a form for me to be contacted. So if someone wants to contact me, you can. I want to make myself available when the time comes for maybe book groups or, you know, there is a lot of content in there that I believe affects a lot of people. Depression is widespread, maybe more so now, and it's an isolating condition both for the person and for the family members. And so I hope people will feel free to reach out.
- [52:04]
B
Excellent. Thank you, Ray, for the book. Thank you again for allowing me to have an advanced version of it, copy of it to go through. Great discussion, great conversation. And I think that your book is not only going to be a great companion for people, it's going to be a great source of strength and help as well.
- [52:21]
A
That's my hope. Thank you for grasping that.
- [52:24]
B
Excellent, everyone. All the information for Ray Dumont in the show Notes in the Shadow of Silence, a novel and a resource, a companion for you as a reader. And again, as you listen to this in the privacy of your headphones, just know that there's people out there that care for you. So, yeah, reach out. Don't do this alone. Don't carry all the bags into the house at once. There's always somebody there with a helping hand. So allow people to help you. Ray, thank you so much for being on the show.
- [52:55]
A
Thank you. Thank you. Very well stated.
- [53:02]
B
Hey, thanks for listening to the podcast. Glad to have you here. I just want to let you know that you can always find out what we're doing live in the moment by going to our YouTube channel. Head over to Living the Next Chapter dot com. There'll be a link right there. Head over to our YouTube channel. Make sure you, like, subscribe, you know, do all the things that all the YouTubers love to say. And in our YouTube channel, a couple things you're going to get advanced listens. You're going to get the episodes that we're working on in real time. So we record and post daily on our YouTube channel. I'd love for you to give us a follow over there as well. We're making playlists. We have over 500 episodes. So finding the right episode for you. We're trying to group things into playlists. So if you like children's books, if you like business, you like historical fiction, we're grouping our authors together to make it a little easier for you to find your favorite next author. So head over to livingthenextchapter.com and again, I'd love to hear from you. Hearing from the listeners of the show is great, and I just want to say thank you for being a part of the podcast family, and I look forward to having you back for the next episode. Thank you for being here. I really appreciate your time and your listen. Take care.