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Love Your Life Show: Personal Growth, Mindset, + Habits for Busy Moms
Enmeshment and Enmeshment Trauma
00:48:07
Are you struggling to set boundaries with a parent? Do you feel responsible for other people’s emotions? Are you having trouble breaking free from codependent behavior? - Well great news….you might be experiencing enmeshment!
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- [00:01]
A
Oh, listeners, we are joined by such a fantastic guest today. We have Dr. Kate on the Love youe Life show. She is a licensed psychologist and sex therapist, the author of what Happened to My Sex Life, and the host of get naked with Dr. Kate podcast. We have a conversation about something I've never addressed on this podcast before, which is enmeshment. As you will hear, enmeshment affects so many different areas of our lives, from our romantic relationships to our friendships to how we parent to our relationship with our parents. Oh, my goodness. So if you've ever heard the term codependency, and yet that is something you're like, oh, yeah, I do a lot of that. Or that's. That's me you want. This episode is for you. This episode is for you, no matter what. Because I just. If you're a listener of this show, I think. I'm quite sure. I'm like, 99% certain that some of this is going to come up for you. So you can let me know if I'm wrong. But enough of me talking. Let's get Dr. Kate on the show. Let's go. Hi. This is the Love youe Life show with Susie Pettit, certified life and wellness coach. Join Susie as she helps you with your wellness and mindset so you can live a life you love. Let's go, warriors. All right, and welcome to the Love youe Life Show. Dr. Kate, I am so excited you are here. As I was just saying as we were talking before getting started that I would love to pick your brain today on the topic of enmeshment and enmeshment trauma.
- [01:47]
B
And.
- [01:47]
A
And we've never talked about it before on the show. I know my listeners are going to be interested and intrigued in what you have to say. To start us off. Can you give us a definition, a sort of working definition of what enmeshment is and what some signs are that we might be in an enmeshed relationship.
- [02:05]
B
Absolutely. And thank you so much for the invitation to be here with you today. When I think about enmeshment, I think about a continuum of boundaries. And when we're talking about kind of relationships, on one side of the continuum, you can have boundaries that are so rigid, so intense, so big, that it feels like there's a chasm between you and another person. Very little to no overlap. On the other side of that continuum. When we're talking about enmeshment, imagine a Venn diagram. You've got two interconnected circles. That's sort of the middle where we want to be an interdepend relationship. So enmeshment, there's very little differentiation between the two circles. They're sort of overlapped. And what that represents is a profound boundarylessness that often feels so intense. It can feel safe and kind of special sometimes, but it can feel so intense that there's very little understanding of where I stop and you start and. Right. And when we're talking about parent child dynamics, what that often can feel like for a young child is like their identity sort of exists, or their very being exists to take care of their parent who is exhibiting these enmeshed dynamics with them. So the direction of care is often very different. When we think about healthy parent child dynamics, we think about a parent being attuned to a child's needs and really getting their needs met with other, you know, age appropriate adults and friends and their own community. But what ends up happening for enmeshed children is that a lot of those care needs kind of get directed from the child toward the parent. And unconsciously, the parent requires a lot of attunement from their child, and the child adapts to that because that's the only way that some of their needs can get met.
- [04:07]
A
Yeah. And it sort of feels good as the kid, as a child who was raised in this sort of dynamic, it feels like, oh, okay, if I take care of mom or dad in this way, I get fulfilled. As you sort of said that when I really like that visual of the circle. So I'm thinking like the rigid, totally boundaried up, or like the circles aren't even touching. Yeah, yeah. Completely on top of each other. So a lot of my listeners are moms, and I'm just wondering if we can get a little more specific, especially for the parents out there, because a lot of us want to be close to our kids, and we might even say things like, I hope we're best friends some days, or what is the difference between a close relationship and like, a healthy parent child bond and an enmeshed one.
- [04:58]
B
Yeah. So when healthy is a really curious term. Right. And I think there are a lot of definitions of that based on people's different cultural expectations. And one of the things to really keep in mind is that enmeshment really eradicates and consumes the identity of the child. So one of the safest ways to practice having healthy boundaries with your child is to really recognize that they are their own sovereign and agentic little being. And you can want them to have everything in life that you want them to have. But I think One of the first ways that it can start to show up is when parents need their children to be a certain way in order for them to feel like they're good parents or in order to feel like they're going to be okay in whatever their needs might be. So when parents start kind of looking to their kids to be a regulating emotional object, no one consciously uses that language, of course. But when, you know, when they need their kids to sort of make them feel okay. Okay, that's a good indication that maybe there need to be some different boundaries there. And I'm going to say something that might sound really controversial, but when your kids are young, you should not be their best friend. You know, if you have that kind of mindset, you might want to revisit what that means to you. I know a lot of parents will say that in a really loving, well intentioned way. And if it means that you're sort of elevating your child falsely to this sort of peer like level to be your friend, that's maybe an indication that some of that energy could be redirected toward other friends, your partner, if you have one family, other adult people in your life. And then when your kids become adults, still as a parent, it's appropriate for you to attune to them first. And when our children become adults, yes, of course they can attune to you too and there becomes some reciprocity. But until they're sort of adult enough to be able to set their own boundaries and have their parent respect their boundaries, it's really important not to mix that like parenting role with a friendship role.
- [07:18]
A
Yeah, I really appreciate you speaking to that so clearly. I want to get even more specific with you, but this is something that came up recently in my life. I had, I. So first I went through a divorce and I was very aware of this in the divorce to make sure that I had my own support outside of me. So I wasn't. Because I was an emotional, you know, hurricane or. And to make sure that I wasn't leaning that on my kids because it was their birth father. So that would not have been helpful or appropriate or any other. It would have been so easy to say like I'm having a really tough time because your dad fill in the blank. So I was very aware of that with the divorce. But then recently, just in the last three or four months I've had a heart issue which on a good path now and all that. But when I was in the middle of it, I had to remind myself again that even though My kids are all 20 and over, you know, so there are. They're those young adults. I'm still their mother. And me saying something that I might say to a friend, like I am scared or I'm really nervous to them, they're going to see it through a different lens and that it's not. I had to, as you said, attune to them first and that I need, you know, basically, warriors will be listeners of the show who I call warriors will be familiar with the language. I say, like, get a want match. Like they want my want match for that, like find I had a want, I needed to share my emotional experience. Again, my want match would be my coach or my friends or my husband versus my child who's having their own experience seeing their mother struggling in this way. So I appreciate that. Do you have anything to add to that that can be helpful?
- [08:58]
B
Yeah, I might just add an extra layer. As we talk about enmeshment, there can sometimes be a more intense version. So even enmeshments can sort of exist on a continuum. Sometimes that can include things like parentifying a child, which means putting your child in a role of being responsible for their younger siblings or other siblings or other people in the home, extended family or whatnot, who might live there, doing a lot of the things that a parent might do, cooking meals for everybody else, cleaning. Now, that's not to say that kids can't have chores and can't help out, but making them primarily responsible for the emotional or the domestic labor surrounding the caretaking for other people can make them parentified. And. And that can sort of overlap with enmeshment. It can take on its own journey and sometimes, you know, you don't have someone else in the house to help, so they do need to help, and it's unavoidable. But to the extent that their emotional development and their youth can be protected from those things, it's usually protection against enmeshment. Then the more acute style, and certainly the more concerning, is what some clinicians call covert incest. Covert incest is again, a more intensified version of enmeshment that often includes the emotional eroticism or emotional dependence on a child that is usually reserved for a romantic or a sexual partner. So in other words, the children kind of get propped up as a surrogate partner, but there's no physical sexual contact between the parent and the child. But this can take many shapes and forms. It can look like going on, quote, unquote, date nights with your child, having your child step in and celebrate Valentine's day for you because you don't have a partner and you feel lonely. It might look like asking a lot of really invasive questions about your child's dating life or their sex life or interrupting their ability to develop healthy romantic and sexual experiences with age appropriate peers. A lot of parents will get very jealous and, and very angry at their child's partner because they experience the partner as taking the child away from them. So this sort of erotically charged enmeshment is particularly problematic for the parent and for the child because it sort of speaks to a loneliness or an inappropriateness of getting those needs met with. Who can actually meet your needs out in the world?
- [11:58]
A
Yeah, I really appreciate you bringing up those specific examples because that is very much like the mom who is saying, like, how are you going out with your friends? I'm lonely or don't you know that I have, you know, this or that going on and why are you doing that? I've heard it also, and maybe this is something different, but the emotional incest, which to me I was like, oh, that's such a hard term. But that resonated with me. This sort of.
- [12:23]
B
Yeah.
- [12:23]
A
You know, when a parent is sharing too much of their emotional world with their child, regardless of their age. I'm going to argue right with you that, that being their best friend is not what we're looking for, to be their one and only, to be that. That sort of bff, not appropriate in terms of just how we show up in relationships. And I, I guess when I was reading or learning about emotional incense incest and thinking it was, you know, we're like overly sharing things like venting about our marriage, venting about our mental health or financial stress, you know, and putting that on our kids in a way. So the kid feels more connected to mom or dad than they, than they developmentally should, and then also more responsible. Can you say more about that?
- [13:19]
B
Yeah, yeah. I think those terms can be fairly interchangeable. Emotional incest and covert incest, depending on the author that you're reading. But usually it does speak to again that child being elevated to the level of a surrogate partner. So things that you would share with your romantic partner. If you're talking to your child about that, it can really give your child a lot of mixed messages about what their role is with you. And they can feel very responsible for their parents well being, which again can, you know, create a strong connection. But it often cannibalizes the young child's development and in ways that are very insidious and in Ways that often show up in that young child's adult relationships later on. It can be something that creates a lot of fear of intimacy with romantic partners or sexual partners because there's this fear of being sort of engulfed by another person's need. Kids don't know how to express that when they're young. You know, they want mom or dad to be happy. So they're like, yeah, okay, sure, I'll help you with that. I'll listen to you, I'll take care of you. If I can make you laugh and make you not sad, then you know, I'll do it. But as an adult, that can turn into people pleasing, self abandonment, a lot of capitulation, a lot of placating, and then sort of acting out their true desires in secret, which creates a lot of breaches and intimacy for them.
- [14:50]
A
Oh my goodness. Yes, yes, yes. I just like raising my hand to all those things. And also going back to your initial, you know, visual of the two circles on top of each other. And that's what I'm seeing. It's this like when we're not letting the kids have their own circle and mom have her own circle, we just mess it all up. And I'm just thinking of this can look like. I know my audience loves examples. This can look like, you know, son or daughter going out on their first date and us asking for too many details. Did you kiss? Did you and oh, come on, I'm your mom, just tell me what's the both like, that would be inappropriate is what I'm hearing. Some of that crossing the lines and letting them have their own experience and letting us manage our own whatever is coming. Anxiety, maybe, that we're like. And also feeling maybe left out. But that's what happens as we are parenting, that we will become more and more left out of their lives.
- [15:46]
B
But, well, your changes. And if you're, and if you're really, you know, doing parenting in a way that supports your child, you want them to individuate. But for a lot of enmeshed parents, they never really had that relational security with their parents. So they're not maliciously sitting in a corner like, let me mess up my kids. Right? That's not it. They're, they're, they're holding space for the parts of themselves that never really felt fully secure, fully safe in appropriate ways with either the adults in their lives or their romantic partnership. Now, I mean, there's a reason we have a boy mom culture and not a boy or not a mom girl culture, right? Not A girl mom culture, I think, is the right reason to say that if we look at the ways that in a patriarchal system which we are living in, men are conditioned to sort of be more distant, more emotionally. They say stoic, I say suppressed. There's a lot of distance that can happen between heterosexual partners. And if you have parents who, you know, don't have maybe the, the strongest communication skills, or maybe they're not showing up for each other in a way that really meets their emotional needs, now you've got a situation where those parents are vulnerable to getting their needs met from their kids. And often because mothers are their primary caretakers for their children, even if they're working outside of the home, they tend to be sort of the most susceptible to leaning on their kids for that emotional sustenance. And so boy mom culture is often a manifestation of those unmet needs in their romantic relationships getting displaced on their child.
- [17:37]
A
I mean, yes, because I'm just seeing this in so many ways. Like, so much of what happens with my listeners and myself, it's just like overwhelmed. We're like overworking. You know, we're doing all the things and then discomfort to, well, first of all, slow down and see what needs we have that need to be met. And if we actually do discomfort in asking the partner for those needs to be met. That's something I've worked on a lot coming from my back, just being like, it's okay to have needs and hey, husband, I might mug or I want. You might want this. But because I've met, as you said in the past, with that stoic, slash suppressed male, I love that I'm hesitant to. So instead the tendency to go look at your kids because you have all these needs, and then maybe we're going to read to them or we prepare the special snack and they're like, not interested. That's when I know so many of us can come out. Don't you know what I've done for you? And the like, looking, looking in the wrong places for our needs to be met. That's, that's really helpful.
- [18:43]
B
Yeah. And it's really, it's, it's, it's painful. Right? Like, I think really no parent that I've ever worked with starts out saying, I really want to be enmeshed with my kids. It's not something that we stumble into on purpose. It's. It's a long ingrained process of, you know, trying to get your needs met in the best way that you know how. And you've got these. I Hate to say it this way, but this captive audience in your kids who are there and they love you and they're looking at you with their kid eyes and they're, you know, all of the adoration and the care that they bring to that relationship that you share, that is real. It's understandable why my. Some parents might say, well, wow, this feels so lovely. It's really hard and abrasive going to my partner who can sometimes be dismissive or not available or critical. And gosh, my own parents are kind of critical or dismissive and abrasive and I get disappointed there, but here I don't. So forcing pattern.
- [19:45]
A
Well, and the system is sort of rigged because when the kids are young, they are. They're looking to you to. They're right. And so they're all those like, lovey bubby, let me like, come give you a hug, mom. That feels so good. And that does feel so good. And yet then, as you're saying, the need to individuate comes out, which again, we haven't. Most of us have not been modeled. That healthy individuation and how you can have that healthy Venn diagram versus the two circles overlapping and. Yes. And without some consciousness, it just makes sense that the parent is going to fall into that pattern. So I want listeners to hear that without shame.
- [20:26]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you are listening and feeling a lot of shame, please put the bat down. Right. Like we get here on accident and we can leave with intention.
- [20:36]
A
Yeah, yeah. So what, like, say you are a listener and you're thinking like, okay, wait a minute though. Like, this was my family. This is. This still is my family. Like, this is how my family was growing up. How can they begin to tell the difference between that loving connection that has edges to who we are and who they are and sort of that not so helpful enmeshment?
- [21:04]
B
Yeah. Well, this is a question that might feel kind of confronting to folks who are on the early stages of exploring this. But one of the things that I might invite listeners to consider is do you feel threatened when your child has an opinion that's different than yours, or if they don't want your advice about something or if they set a boundary with you, does it. Does it result in a somatic reaction in your body? Do you feel, you know, like you're not important to them anymore or like they're not listening to you or they don't need you or they don't want you? Do you feel abandoned or rejected? That might be an indicator that there's Something going on for you that's a little bit more invested in them giving you something that you need as opposed to. You're witnessing their sovereign experience and holding space for their sovereign experience. You can still have feelings about whatever you see them doing, and you might not agree with it, or you might not want them to take a path. Right. But if you feel that sort of like defensive, threatening, like, oh, reaction, like they're taking something from me or this isn't how I want them to be, it might be an indicator that it's time to take a step back and figure out, okay, so what is going on here that I'm so activated that them having a different belief system or a different ideology about something or a different favorite food that isn't the shared.
- [22:39]
A
Favorite food that we have. Wanting to play a different, different sport than I want them to play, Going to a different college or. Yeah, so many things.
- [22:45]
B
Wear different clothing style or even something like, I'm gonna go read in my room right now. You're feeling particularly lonely or like you want to connect with them. If those are the little things where you're finding yourself getting really charged, it could mean that there's something bigger there to open up and explore.
- [23:06]
A
Great. So I'm like, yeah, I'm. I'm just hearing listeners like, yes, yes. So what are. Like, what do you. What would you say when you say open up and explore? Like, what are sort of baby steps to start to do that?
- [23:19]
B
Well, I think it starts first with just like, tracking those feelings and those somatic reactions and trying to figure out what are you feeling in those moments. After that, I think practicing some nurturing for yourself, because if you're having a big reaction, there's usually some sort of need underlying that that is trying to make itself known. So can you create some nurturing for yourself instead of relying on your child making the decision or being attuned to you in a certain way? Can you do that for yourself? Or can you go out and intentionally reach out to your community, reach out to your friends, your loved ones, or make new communities so that you can bring those feelings over here to folks who are there for you in a different way than your child? Can you work with a therapist? Can you start saying, hey, I'm noticing that I'm really invested in my child's life in a way that feels actually really scary for me if they're doing something that's different than what I'm hoping or wanting or needing from them.
- [24:23]
A
Yeah, that's really helpful tactical advice. That's exactly. Like, so first what I'm hearing is you just notice it. Like notice the feeling in your body or the tight chest or the flushed face or the, you know, really that like, oh my gosh, something's gone wrong feeling. And breathe. Calm down. You know, I'm so frustrated. Was like, just breathe. It's like, but do it. Like, don't chase after the kid that goes to his room to read. Just sit down there, notice yourself, nurture, and start to investigate a little of okay, maybe this is just telling me I'm a little too much of those circles overlapping and looking to my kid to meet my needs. And I guess one thing it is that the difference between like being what you said is like being comfortable with a kid having a different view than you or a different doing something different than the way you think they should be doing it. And that feeling way bigger than the fact that they're just choosing to read Harry Potter instead of, you know, some other series or much bigger.
- [25:29]
B
Yeah.
- [25:29]
A
Which I always look at. I look back to my family too, and I guess a question I like asking myself is like, did, did my allegiance to my family come first before anything? Like, was I punished or did I get in trouble if I had a different viewpoint than my family growing up? Can you. Yeah, I see you nodding. I'm like, yeah, that is absolutely my path. Oh, great.
- [25:56]
B
Okay. You are speaking the truth. So what ends up happening for kids who are enmeshed is they develop what's called a loyalty bind. And that loyalty bind is a bind where in those moments they have to decide between staying loyal to their parent and their family and abandoning themselves or staying loyal to themselves and running the risk of being ostracized or bumping into conflict within their family or with that enmeshed parent. And so this is the, the tension that children sit with all the time when they have enmeshed parents. And I'm so glad you said, don't go chasing after your kid when they want to go to their room and read. Because a lot of parents, when they start questioning this, they'll actually really well intentioned want to go to their child and say, hey, have I been doing this to you? Hey, do I do this to you? Hey, is this something that you've noticed? And maybe down the road that's an okay set of questions to bring to them. But if it's your initial exploration, it can be so tempting to turn around and put that in their lap again. So they are taking care of you. And because of that loyalty bug, they May not want to say to you, yeah, mom, you do, and it's really tough. They might not feel like they can say that. It might feel really scary even if you've never been intentionally punitive before. But a lot of kids really recognize that their parent. What I hear from adult children all the time is that they feel like their parents have a fragility and they want to really care for their parent in that sense. But they often feel guilty saying or doing anything that might bump up against what they experience as their parents. Fragility. And when parents are first starting to learn about how they've maybe been enmeshed or haven't evidenced the best boundaries, they often feel a lot of shame. And you know, again, put down the bat if you are feeling a lot of shame. There is often a space to repair with your kids that can really strengthen your relationship moving forward. And it requires you doing a little bit more emotional regulation so that your kids don't feel like they have to hold you together.
- [28:13]
A
Yeah. And yes, I love this that you brought up parental fragility, because I think from the listener, thinking of how they can not be so fragile with their kids is helpful. I know I have a lot of listeners that are all excited to do the work and also to. To look at the generation above us in terms of what we've been modeled, what sort of soup we came from, and how, oh my gosh, this makes perfect sense that this is what we've been doing because this is just what was being done to us. And to your point that when you, when you press that loyalty bind, you know, it's either. What. What did you say? Like, it's either allegiance to yourself and the family caves or allegiance to the family and you cave. You do the self abandonment that is that parental fragile fragility. And that is 100% my experience and I know a lot of other listeners too. And that is why it feels so challenging to speak up or to say to our parents, actually, we're doing Thanksgiving differently or we don't want to come home for Christmas this year. Our home actually is no longer our childhood home. It is now our adult home home or the, the boundary setting. And trying to draw bring those circles apart can feel so challenging. Can you speak a little about that, please? Yeah.
- [29:37]
B
It's so challenging. Right. Because children love their parents and children, even adult children, they will, they will put themselves through a lot of gymnastics to maintain a relationship with their parents. So when a child recognizes that their parent has this fragility, they're often Going to self abandon because, and you know, this is again not to bring shame to any parent who might have been enmeshing with their child when they were younger. But the, the implicit message is my needs matter more than yours, so mom or dad needs to be taken care of first before your, your needs can get met. So children will really internalize that as they come second to their parent. They often feel tremendous guilt and tremendous shame if their parent feels challenged or upset or, or unable to quote, unquote, cope. And a lot of parents do kind of fall apart when their kids start setting boundaries and mesh. Parents really do struggle with being okay with those boundaries because they are maybe not as aware of how much need they do have they put on their child to make sure listening to you.
- [30:55]
A
On podcasts or going, so they're just still in that old pattern. So I really appreciate you bringing that up when, when maybe listeners are feeling more people pleasing or self sacrificing with their parents to notice, oh, this might be what's going on. And this is why it's so hard for me that, you know, your mom calls and says I'm lonely, I want to talk on the phone. And you setting a boundary and saying, I, I get it, mom, I love you and I can't talk right now. Why that feels like you're going to throw up and your whole system is going to break down and your mom might, you know, I mean, I think that that's some of what you're speaking about to have some expectation of the pushback they can expect. Not that the, the our older parents are trying to harm us, but just that this is the way they've always done it. So they don't see it as anything wrong.
- [31:45]
B
They don't. And, and many of them served this role for their parents. Right. And there is this expectation of when I have kids, they'll do it for me.
- [31:55]
A
And so our family does it or. Yes.
- [31:57]
B
Yeah, this is the, you know, the family intergenerational dynamics in families. We often default to what we know and what we know is what we observed. So again, it can feel like a parent enmeshed. Parents can often feel like they're being disrespected because again, they were put in a role where they had to self abandon for their parent. And now they sort of see it.
- [32:21]
A
What are you doing?
- [32:22]
B
This is just how like it's my time to get my knees right.
- [32:26]
A
You here for Thanksgiving? You get here for Thanksgiving or you're being a bad daughter, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [32:32]
B
But I mean the the adult children who are trying to individuate, they want a good relationship with their parents. They want to be able to see their parents and feel excited about spending that time with them. And all of the obligation that comes with holding your parents together in that way can feel really suffocating. So what ends up happening is you have an adult child who kind of never really differentiates and they become completely enmeshed and entrenched and engulfed in their parents needs, so their identity never really fully develops. Or you have children who go so far the other way that they have to take so much proximal and sometimes psychic space so that they have a chance at learning who they are. And that can feel like alienation. So it can be really challenging. When enmeshed parents are not willing to participate in reorganizing the boundaries of the relationship. But if listeners here are experiencing this with their own parents or with their own children, I would encourage them to remember that the bids for changing the boundaries are actually a sign that that child wants a good relationship with their parent.
- [33:47]
A
Right.
- [33:47]
B
Often it can feel really threatening to the parent, but it's a good sign when they stop asking for you to address the boundaries, then it's something to be concerned about.
- [33:58]
A
Yeah, I really appreciate that, that if the listener is hearing this from their kid or their, you know, their kid is going to their room or they're in their 20s and they're saying, I only want to talk to you once a week, or please don't come over more than once a month or that sort of thing, that, that, that will feel hurtful to the parent in this dynamic. And yet, yes, that's a sign that the kid, you know, healthy boundaries make healthy relationships that they want, they still want a relationship. They just might have different ideas of what that relationship looks, looks like and yeah, comfortable with that, I guess.
- [34:32]
B
Yeah. And it might not be permanent either. Like, relationship needs can change and they can ebb and flow, but most of the time when kids are trying to set boundaries with their parent, they're implicitly saying, I need to know I can feel safe with you. Now when I say that to parents, sometimes they get very defensive and they're like, well, of course my child is safe with me. And I'll remind anyone who might feel defensive in hearing that that we don't get to decide what is safe for. Right. They tell us whether or not they feel safe with us. And so sometimes what they're saying is, can you practice respecting my boundaries? And when they see that you can respect their Boundaries, they're willing to open up more relationship space.
- [35:17]
A
Yeah. To me it's like, can you practice self regulating so that I can share, you know, my, my, the. Can you not be so fragile, mom, essentially is what it is. When I, when, you know, my sons have set boundaries, that is just. I see it coming. I hear, I do this work all the time and I'm just like, okay, like, this feels hard. I gotta take some breaths, say yes, of course, and then set up an appointment with my therapist or coach. Like that, that piece of it. And I. And on the other side, really looking at generationally, it makes sense that our parents don't have these skills. They're not listening to podcasts like this usually they're not reading about emotional regulation. And, and so a lot of times when we are setting the boundaries with mom or dad, they are going to cave and use some of these guilt trips and, and go back to their old ways or, you know, whatever. And, and that it is just, I think, really important to do. What you have said before is just notice our feelings. Get surrounded by people that are telling you you're not doing something wrong, you're a cycle breaker. Like, you're not passing this down. We don't have to do this. Just because grandpa says you need to sit on his lap doesn't mean you need to sit on his lap. Doesn't you that we can. Just because grandpa then says, you know, I'm a bad daughter or you're a bad granddaughter of grants, that doesn't mean that's true.
- [36:47]
B
That's right.
- [36:47]
A
And to just sort of have permission to be that cycle breaker, even though.
- [36:51]
B
It'S, oh, gosh, it's so hard. And you know, today's parents, I really feel for them because they are. Whoever is the cycle breaker in an intergenerational dynamic of this really gets a raw deal. I have to say that because they didn't get what they need from their parents well enough, often enough, and since they're not going to repeat the pattern, they're not going to get it from the younger generation either. Right. So they're the person, they're the cycle breaker who really needs to lean in and build community and tap into communities like yours where there are other people who are sharing sort of that task. And it can be really lonely and really isolating and also very liberating and very healing. But it's really hard to be the generation that's saying, okay, I'm not going to do it here anymore, and I'm also not going to do it there.
- [37:44]
A
And, like, I appreciate that as a cycle breaker myself with my family, who completely. I. I also need to echo that. It's so much better this way. Because before, it's like a fake fix, you know, you're trying to do the thing to make mom or dad happy, and you're. And once you step out of that. That game, and you're like, that is not my job. And that's okay. You. You feel a lot better about yourself. You recognize you're not doing it to your kids. Finding the people around you in the groups and the supportive and, you know, listening to people like you, and it just feels like a balm to my soul. So I'm not saying there isn't a lonely period where you're like, why is absolutely no one in my family talking? Like, what is going on? Okay. And I'm not gonna lean on my kids in the middle of this. Feels awful and uncomfortable. The other side of that feels just so great for more adult, like, you know, more like, it's just empower, pride, confidence, all of that. And that there is another side to it. And it is. I guess what. What I just want to sort of pull out for listeners is that we're trying to. In that moment, like, we're trying. We're looking for that. That attachment and connection. Correct. Like, so as the kid, we're looking to our parents to attach and connect. And we're like, that's not working in a. In a quote unquote healthy or safe way for me, so gonna stop doing that. And then, oh, I'm inclined to look to my kids for the attachment or, you know, to have my emotional needs met. And it's like, oh, okay. Also not the most skilled work there. Let's pull back and learning about ourselves and how to get our attachment needs met from within and also with our peers and in groups, as you said. Like, that's part of why I started my Love youe Life school, because I was like, come on, let's come in here. Like, these wounded little. Come on in people that.
- [39:40]
B
That.
- [39:41]
A
It just feels so much more. Confident is the word that comes to mind. Or not as. As fragile.
- [39:48]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I hear a lot from people who have done this work, and let me say that I'll put this caveat on it. I don't know that we're ever done in this.
- [39:57]
A
I don't think we ever. Yeah, sorry.
- [40:00]
B
It gets a lot easier, like. But I think at the start, it's more difficult. The grief level is higher and Maybe you don't see the benefits just yet. And as you continue to do the work, there's still often a lot of grief. And that grief shows up with different life milestones that maybe you wish you could share with your family, but you don't want to go down that road again. So there can be, you know, a tinge of grief, but the benefit often does supersede the grief pretty quickly within the first couple of months and years. And people start to really make these shifts into more boundaried relationship styles. And it does. I often hear, hear from folks that I'm helping on this path that it's one of the hardest things they've ever done. And there is pain and grief, but this is the best they've ever felt in their lives. And it does. When we look at sort of the, the. I used the word cannibalization earlier and I'm going to double down on that word. The cannibalization of enmeshment is such that it really robs a person of being able to develop emotionally beyond the limitations of the enmeshed parent. So pmlity looks at enmeshment and codependence as developmental immaturities. People get stuck somewhere based on the trauma that they've endured and sort of where the limits of their caretakers were and helping them metabolize and move through that. So when you continue to do the same thing the same way with your parents, you end up getting stuck where they're stuck until you make a change and do something very different. And there is a lot of maturation that can happen there which can deepen your relationship with yourself, with your friends, with your partner and with your kids in a healthy way. Paradoxically.
- [41:56]
A
Yeah. Oh yeah. I absolutely would echo that and reinforce that. I feel so much better about my relationship with, with my kids because of the work I've done in the relationship with my parents. And also speak to your point, there is huge grief and I, I think a lot of it is just accepting what is this is, you know, not trying to have that Disney family where it's like my mom should do this and my dad. We just accept the parents that know they, you know, quite possibly are a meshed and whatever. Fill in the blank for the rest of your life. These are the parents I have and how do I want to show up with those parents I have without continuing to self abandon myself? Does take grief, as you, as you say, and also very quickly. It feels so good. It's like after you get through that rough period of when Your body feels like it's shutting down. There is the other side where it's like, okay, and now I get to do differently. And I think a big part of that. Again, I know we've said this like at least three times now, but surrounding yourself with other people, that can reinforce your new way of being that you're not surrounding yourself with other people. Like, but she's your mom. That was really hard for me. Or like, but that's your dad. Or why aren't, you know, it's Father's Day, that sort of thing. You want to surround yourself with people that are like, wow, this must be really hard for you today. Or supporting the, or, you know, but you're, but you want your son to go, you know, play soccer. Why are you letting him play football? Call or any of these messages a lot. We really need to pay attention to getting that support from our peers in a, in a helpful way.
- [43:37]
B
Yeah, look, because all of us, therapists included, we're all sort of walking around doing life for the first time. So we're at different stages of understanding the ways in which we've been conditioned to be in relationship. And a lot of friends, a lot of loved ones are really well meaning, but also they're less self examined, maybe, or they're unwilling to take the risks that maybe you might want to take for yourself. And setting up some boundaries so you can very easily get sucked back into old dynamics if you don't make new connections with people who are on a similar journey. It can feel really isolative at first because your friends and your family have known you a certain way. So when you start setting different boundaries, you know, it can feel a little prickly for sure. And it, and, and you know, it can be a little jostling for people.
- [44:29]
A
Well, and because I know for me, a lot of the relationships I had were based on the relationship model I had had. So it's like we're all, you know, I felt comfortable around people doing the same thing. And then when I started doing something differently, I'm like, wait, I can't expect them to all of a sudden like, drink the Suzy juice too and be like, come on, it's time. And so they're there. You know, there can be. There definitely are shifts. I really, really appreciate that. I think this is a good place to start to wrap it up. But I just want to make sure and check in with you. Is there anything you wanted to share that we haven't communicated to listeners that you think we should share would help them to Hear.
- [45:08]
B
Well, there are folks often ask, like, what books can I read? What can I. What kind of resources are there? So the, the books that I really love on this topic. One is written by Dr. Patricia Love, and it's called the Emotional Incest Syndrome. Provocative to your point earlier, but I think she does probably the best job out of any of the books I've done I've read, really breaking down kind of the different kinds of enmeshment that can exist and the, the insidious ways that it can show up. And in the back, there is a little call out to parents who want to do differently and where can they start? So it's a really lovely place to get started. And then Dr. Ken Adams has written two books on this subject and they're both fantastic. One is called Silently Seduced, where he really does talk more about that erotically charged covert incest and how that can affect people. His work is mostly focused on mother enmeshed men. So the book does take a little bit of a deeper dive into how men's relational lives and sexual lives can be impacted. But there is a really great chapter on enmeshed daughters as well. And then his other book is called When He's Married to Mom. And it talks about the. Yeah, it's a great title. It really talks about sort of the different archetypes of enmeshed mother and son dynamics and how it really, it feels like an affair partner in adult male relationships. Mom feels like a third. And. And Dr. Adams, you know, talks about how men who are enmeshed who don't do this work end up divorcing the wrong partner. Right, right, right. They need to divorce their moms.
- [46:54]
A
Yeah. Oh, that's excellent. I. I actually have not read any of those three. I've heard. I think I've read some of Dr. Ken Adams just online, but I'm thinking that emotional incest syndrome might be one we do in the Love youe Life school is a book level because that sounds excellent. I'm so grateful for you sharing. And, and if listeners are. Because you have a whole practice. If listeners want to find out more and get help from you, I will put those links in the show notes quickly so we have it on audio. Where can we direct them?
- [47:23]
B
Sure, they can go to my. My website, modern intimacy.com and we're actually finishing up a Healing from Enmeshment workbook. So that should be out, I'm hoping within the next month or so.
- [47:36]
A
Awesome. I had heard you mention that a while ago and I was going to ask you about that offline. Okay, great.
- [47:41]
B
Yeah, so we're working on that. If that's something that you're interested in, you can drop us an email on the website. We'll add you to our list when it's ready. And modern intimacy.com is probably the best place to start.
- [47:52]
A
Okay, that's awesome. And that might be our workbook to move through in the Love youe Life school. Thank you so much, Dr. Kate, for coming on. I just greatly appreciated this conversation and you taking the time to help us all, like, likewise.
- [48:06]
B
Thank you.