Midlife Sexuality: You’re Not Broken

Summary

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Love Your Life Show with Susie Pettit

Episode: Midlife Sexuality: You’re Not Broken

Guest: Dr. Jen Gonzalez

Date: February 12, 2025

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Overview

In this candid and insight-packed episode, Susie Pettit is joined by Dr. Jen Gonzalez, a renowned sociologist, relationship communication coach, and sexuality expert. Together, they confront the myths, shame, and social conditioning surrounding women’s sexuality—especially in midlife. The episode offers practical advice for overcoming negative body image, navigating desire mismatches, and reigniting intimacy in long-term relationships, all while tackling the persistent belief among women that something is “broken” about their sexuality.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Contradictory Messages About Female Sexuality

[02:12–05:06]

• Both host and guest share personal experiences of growing up with mixed messages: Girls are told to be attractive but not “too sexy,” to be desirable but never desiring, and to remain silent about their needs.
  • “We think of sex as just a natural thing, but we are, from birth, being socialized… and that comes with a whole host of expectations.” — Dr. Jen [02:48]
• Media, religion, and family perpetuate unrealistic ideals—shaping how women view their bodies, pleasure, and sexual encounters.
  • “If we were to believe Hollywood films as accurate, we would think that everybody is insatiable … and all women are easily orgasmic … and that’s insane and not true at all.” — Dr. Jen [03:24]
• Dr. Jen emphasizes how this leads to shame, self-judgment, and a sense of brokenness when reality diverges from these scripts.

2. Body Image and Self-Worth in the Bedroom

[07:21–14:25]

• The hosts explore how a lifetime of comparison and “beauty pageant” mentality drains women’s time and self-esteem.
  • “It’s like from birth, girls and women are entered into a lifetime beauty pageant we never signed up for.” — Dr. Jen [08:26]
• Societal double standards allow men to age “sexily,” while women are pressured to maintain youth and thinness, often at the expense of joy and connection.
• This insecurity carries into intimate relationships, affecting presence and enjoyment.

3. Being Present and Reclaiming Sexual Enjoyment

[12:57–17:45]

• Dr. Jen offers practical, mindfulness-inspired strategies for being present during intimacy:
  • Anchor to the five senses—focus on touch, smell, music, etc.
  • Acknowledge distracting or negative thoughts (“I see you, I’ve got this”), but choose to enjoy the moment anyway.
  • Recognize that partners are usually happy because you are present, not fixated on perceived flaws.
• Notable quote:
  • “We have a right to pleasure and enjoyment regardless of what your body looks like, what you think it looks like.” — Dr. Jen [17:42]

4. Understanding Desire: Spontaneous vs. Responsive

[19:40–24:36]

• Dr. Jen distinguishes between spontaneous desire (“microwave”—immediate, most common in new relationships or for young men) and responsive desire (“slow cooker”—arises with the right context, emotional connection, and intentionality).
  • “What we often have in long-term relationships is responsive desire... you take that leap of faith, and your body starts getting aroused, and then that leads to desire, which then leads to more arousal, which then leads to pleasure.” — Dr. Jen [21:55]
• Practical tip: Don’t wait for “horniness” to appear. Create conditions (emotional closeness, light touching, anticipation) that allow arousal to develop into desire.

5. Communication and Teamwork in Intimacy

[25:20–26:49]

• Open, non-defensive communication is essential. Needs and desires change; what works one day might not another. Give feedback without shame for either partner.
  • “It doesn’t mean you’re broken, it doesn’t mean your partner is doing anything wrong...These are women’s bodies in long-term relationships with the stress of life and the shifts of hormones.” — Dr. Jen [25:32]
• View navigating intimacy as teamwork, not blame.

6. Brakes & Accelerators: Why “Just Spice It Up” Doesn’t Work

[27:36–30:09]

• Dr. Jen references Emily Nagoski’s dual-control model: desire depends on both “accelerators” (things that turn you on) and “brakes” (stress, body image, exhaustion, etc.)
  • “If there’s a brake on, and you push the accelerator all you want, you’re not going to get anywhere.” — Dr. Jen [28:24]
• Women often have more (and stronger) brakes; removing them is as important as creating excitement.

7. Discovering What You Like—It’s Okay to Not Know

[30:49–34:33]

• Many women feel embarrassed or pressured when asked what they want sexually. Exploration is encouraged—try erotica, romance novels, vibrators, or new experiences just for yourself.
• Crucial insight:
  • “The things that turn us on aren’t necessarily things we actually want to do in real life.” — Dr. Jen [31:30]
• Fantasy is safe and private; there’s no obligation to share or enact everything you imagine.

8. Sex After a Dry Spell: How to Reconnect

[35:36–41:27]

• Sexless relationships are very common, especially in long-term marriages. Dr. Jen urges intentionality if you want to reignite things:
  • Start small and slow—don’t expect to jump back in at the same level.
  • Introduce “Happy Naked Fun Time” (HNFT): scheduled, tech-free, nude or mostly nude, cuddling, touching, and talking without the expectation of intercourse.
  • “If you put an expectation on yourself… you have to perform, then that’s probably going to… kill it.” — Dr. Jen [37:48]
• Use external support (coach or therapist) if there are underlying resentments or miscommunications.

9. Redefining Intimacy and Sex

[40:28–41:47]

• Broaden the definition—intimacy can be a menu, not just penetration. Massage, cuddling, or small gestures count.
• Vulnerability is key: true intimacy requires trust and the willingness to be emotionally exposed.
  • “Intimacy at the core… is raw vulnerability and trusting the person you’re with.” — Dr. Jen [41:27]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Social Conditioning:
  “It is filled with contradictions.” — Dr. Jen [02:31]

• On Body Image:
  “From birth, girls and women are entered into a lifetime beauty pageant we never signed up for.” — Dr. Jen [08:26]

• On Being Present:
  “May as well make the best of it… anchor yourself to your five senses… acknowledge the thoughts, come back to those senses, knowing you have a right to pleasure and enjoyment…” — Dr. Jen [15:34]

• On Desire:
  “If you’re not feeling [desire] much, you could be waiting for a really long time. So, it’s a reframing…” — Dr. Jen [22:36]

• On Exploring Fantasies:
  “There does seem to be a gender difference… women are much less likely to ever want to live out their fantasies… it’s safe in my head.” — Dr. Jen [32:57, 33:51]

• On Intimacy as Vulnerability:
  “Intimacy at the core… is raw vulnerability and trusting the person you’re with and creating the safe space that they can trust you. And it is very scary and it is very beautiful.” — Dr. Jen [41:27]

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Resources Mentioned

• Dr. Jen’s Book: From Madness to Mindfulness: Reinventing Sex for Women [42:20]
• Emily Nagoski’s Books: Come As You Are & Come Together [27:36]
• Ian Kerner's Book: She Comes First [39:27]

Where to Find Dr. Jen:

• Website: DrJensDen.com
• Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn

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Suggested Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:12] Mixed messages about sexuality and early conditioning
• [08:26] The “beauty pageant” metaphor; impact on self-worth
• [12:57–15:34] Mindful intimacy: presence, battling distraction
• [19:40–22:36] Spontaneous vs. responsive desire explained
• [25:20–26:49] Importance of communication, teamwork in intimacy
• [27:36–30:09] Brakes vs. accelerators, dual-control model
• [30:49–34:33] How to find out what you want and safe exploration
• [35:36–41:27] Sex after a dry spell, Happy Naked Fun Time
• [41:27] Vulnerability and the true meaning of intimacy

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This episode is packed with compassionate guidance and permission for women—especially in midlife—to explore, celebrate, and reframe their sexuality without guilt or self-blame. Dr. Jen’s perspective is both affirming and practical, making this a must-listen for anyone reconsidering their approach to intimacy.

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Transcript

[A]

Oh, listeners, do I have a treat for you. I have Dr. Jen Gonzalez on the show today. She is a sociologist, relationship communication coach, emotional intelligence specialist, author and international speaker. I, we had, I just got off. We had the greatest conversation. You're going to get so much from this episode. She is an influential leader in her space. You will sense her energy immediately and watch this on the YouTube. Also if you you're listening on podcast, you'll love seeing her energy. She, her inspirational work centers around fostering connection, effective conversation and deeper understanding to resolve some of the biggest issues for individuals, relationships and society. Overall, she's a celebrated author. She penned From Madness to Mindfulness, Reinventing Sex for Women, a self help guide designed to help women overcome shame and, and miseducation and reclaim their passion, pleasure and connection. She's passionate about equality, education and empowerment. She is also an active philanthropist in her community. And she, her community is San Diego. And she fully embodies her San Diego life by kicking butt at beach volleyball, strumming the ukulele, volunteering with organizations like Women Give San Diego and she even holds a black belt in karate. Like, come on, you're going to love this conversation and I'm just going to dive right in. Let's go. Hi, this is the Love youe Life show with Susie Pettit, certified life and wellness coach. Join Susie as she helps you with your wellness and mindset so you can live a life you love. Let's go warriors. Let's go. Hello and welcome to the Love youe Life Show. Dr. Jen, I am so, so excited to have you on the show to help my listeners and frankly me with sexuality. Thank you for coming.

[B]

Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for wanting to dive into this topic and see where it takes us.

[A]

I do. I just. So many of us grew up with really mixed messages around sexuality. Like to be desirable but don't desire to look attractive but not sexy or slutty, you know, to play hard to get. But then when we're married, like don't be an ice queen, you know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. And be a pleaser and don't rock the boat and give others what they want. Yeah, yeah. So I, yeah, it is filled with contradictions. Yes.

[A]

And I'd love to dive into that. Like how society influences how women view their sexuality. Like, do you see?

[B]

Yeah, it's. And it's like, it's, it's endless. The ways. I mean, because we think of, often we think of sex as just a, you know, a natural thing, but we are from birth being socialized. Into, you know, a gender first of all, generally male or female. And that comes with a whole host of expectations. And then depending on what you're learning through your family of origin and through religion and through the media and, and books and everything like that, we learn what is expected of us sexually, like how we're supposed to look, how we're supposed to behave, how a sexual encounter plays out. If we were to believe Hollywood films as accurate, we would think that everybody is insatiable and, and all women are easily orgasmic and there's no foreplay and you just jump right into intercourse and then everybody orgasms and is happy and that's insane and not true at all.

[A]

All rainbows and daisies. Yeah. And then everyone wants the same amount of sex and everyone wants.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. And no. And you don't have to talk about it, you know, Condoms. Yeah. So. And then there's so many components of it specifically for women because we, we live, you know, in US society, it's still. We plaster women's sexuality everywhere. And by that I mean in terms of sexy photos and bathing suits and, and using sex to sell, quote unquote. But when it comes to very like, frank, honest conversations about women owning our bodies and owning our desire and our pleasure and feeling like we have a right to put up boundaries and we have a right to ask for what we want and that our pleasure matters also and normalizing our desire, we get so many mixed messages. Now. I was raised Catholic in a small town in Pennsylvania outside Philadelphia. And so there was, you know, guilt and shame around sex, especially female sexuality and guilt around masturbation and self pleasure. And we didn't talk about these topics. So there's, there's just such a contradiction. Yet we realize clearly it's an important thing. It's all animals do it. It's an important thing. That's how we came about. That's how we were born, through sex.

[A]

Yet species continues.

[B]

Yeah, it's like literally the most basic thing with like eating, drinking, sleeping and, and sex. So, but, but we learn that, that it's, that it's dirty or it's wrong or it's shameful and that, and that there's something wrong with us or we're broken and you know, we orgasm too fast or we don't orgasm fast enough. We, we, you know, we quote, unquote, put out too much or we don't put out enough. You know, you were saying all of these things and then, and then younger generations now learn so much about what sex is supposed to Be by watching porn and, and you know, regardless of whether people tell you it's not true, it's not real. Well, it is real. Humans having real sex. It's, it's not real in terms of the emotions and insecurities and communication and sexual health and gender differences, etc. And, but it is, you know, so, so you think it's just about, you know, pounding someone else and that they want what you want and that there's a very scripted way that you're supposed to go through a sexual encounter. So all of that and then we're adults and we're trying to have lasting, loving, passionate relationships, but we've learned all of these negative messages about our bodies and about shame and embarrassment and, and we weren't, we didn't learn actual helpful skills and in how to have a good sexual encounter and all the nuances around it. And then so often, yeah, as women, we think there's something wrong or broken with us. And as soon as a couple start having problems, you've got a higher desire person who feels rejected or unattracted or undesired. You have a lower desire person, which is almost impossible that you won't have that in a long term relationship. And the lower desire person feels embarrassed or ashamed or guilty or like their partner's gonna leave them or cheat on them. And it's just so laden with fear and self worth topics and lack of communication and skills about what to do around it. And then, and then that just becomes a cycle of more problems and avoidance. Yeah. So that's, that's what I specialize in all of that.

[A]

Well, and I, I just love it because it is, it's like the communication in itself is, it feels so. I grew up in a small town outside of Boston, so. And my mom was Catholic, so it's very similar. And like communication about this stuff felt so awkward and as a young girl it's like, don't talk about it, don't think about it, don't have desire, you know, but, but you better look good and act, you know, because you're right, you're. Find a husband like.

[B]

Exactly. And your self worth is in your appearance and your weight and your, and that's your worthiness to others which then becomes ingrained in us in, in our own sense of worthiness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's insane, insidious. And it is not, is not mentally or emotionally healthy for us.

[A]

No. And then, but, and yet, like, to all the listeners listening, it then makes sense that no matter our age, that we're Going to feel some of this. These insecurities. You know, if we've been taught from an early age that, like, you're here to be desirable to men, and then, you know, we're like, looking at our bodies at whatever, and we're like, oh, and we feel whatever in the bedroom. Yeah, there's.

[B]

And it's. And it's an impossible. So there's a quote I read that was something like, oh, this was a long time ago about. It's like from birth. Girls and women are entered into a lifetime beauty pageant that we never signed up for because we are assessing ourselves and feeling assessed and judged by others. And that is a heavy weight, pun intended, to carry our whole lives. And then we age and we gain weight and you have babies and the hormone shifts and. And menopause. And those are very real changes to our body. And instead of being taught to focus on the strengths that our body does have, and it's amazing what our bodies do and to be grateful that we got out of bed this morning and that our bodies are amazing vehicles for so much pleasure and connection and fun and enjoyment. There's just this one thing that we feel like is the most important thing, and that's just. I come back to the word insidious, because it is. And it's really. It's sad too. You know, you think about at the end of our lives, we look back and we're like, why did I care about that so much? Like, that's not what mattered.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Hard to. It's. It's hard to make that mental emotional.

[A]

Shift because if it's coming from your family of origin and then it's also all around us in society and. And you know, with the aging part, for. It's. It is so interesting because it's still like, we're this beauty pageant we didn't sign up for. Like, we're, you know, being forced or being encouraged to do certain things to still maintain, you know, that, like, youth is sexy versus, you know, like, wrinkly faces and.

[B]

Right. Which men are all absolutely allowed to. Sexiest man alive. Gray hair.

[A]

Right. Yes. Yeah.

[B]

There's no version.

[A]

These wrinkles look so. And it's like. So, yeah. I'm trying to change that. It's just like, good.

[B]

I know.

[A]

But.

[B]

But there's such a strong. There's so much, I mean, in billion, multi billion dollar industries specifically around women's beauty and making us think that we are inadequate or not worthy and attractive enough as we are. And we need to spend time, money, and energy on it, it's just think about how we could run the world truly if. If we weren't taught to spend our time in this way.

[A]

Yeah, I mean that's absolutely. I've, I've. There's other quotes that I'm not coming up with right now. But like if, you know, if you took like a pie chart of how much time over the last, like I'm 53, over the last five decades that I have spent thinking about my body or appearance versus like, you know, social change and you know, I know, I guess I should have said like the first three and a half because I've done some dramatic shifts in that pie chart. But really it's like all those springing thoughts on what am I eating? Is this too much? Is it? How am I exercising, what do I look like and what do I, you.

[B]

Know, and it's dye my hair.

[A]

Like, whatever it is. It's like just, oh my gosh, can we just get back and knowing that in a lot of men's brains they don't have that going on. It's, it's, you know, I'm a mom of son, so I'm aware that they have their own thoughts about their bodies.

[B]

Yeah, for sure. And own insecurities.

[A]

Same degree. And actually speaking of that, I just had one of my sons was over and he had three of his friends and they were here for the weekend and they left and there he's here. He's actually from San Diego State University. He's here in Australia for a semester abroad. And so he has met other like friends, you know, and so he had the guy friends. Components of that's coming to stay at our house and do sort of the Southern Australia tour and the girl component, they were off doing something else. And when the boys left and went back to Sydney, I just had this. I was like, oh my gosh. They did not mention girls. They did not mention like their appearance. Like their talk was all about like present day enjoyment of what they were doing. Also like future plans of travel or whatever. And I just know from being a female that if I was together with my friends and we were 20 and 21, I'd be like, what are the boys doing? You know? And I like, it's like, are we posting right? And it's.

[B]

Right, are we taking sexy photos of.

[A]

Us sitting here at the cafe to like post and look at how we're doing and instead of like in the moment. And it is, yeah, it is challenging. So. So how can we start moving out of that as women. Dr. Jen. Like, how?

[B]

Well, one thing I was thinking, because this very much relates to. To, you know, how and whether we could show up sexually with our partners. Because body image is one of the big things that can get in the way. You know, once we're out of the newness of the beginning of a relationship that's so run by neurochemicals and excitement and fun and that tends to fade over time, then we're left with our insecurities and our fears and our shames, even though the person in front of us is the same person that we love and we're committed to and want to be with. So, you know, so often, you know, when I work with heterosexual couples, the men, if I'm working with a husband, he's like, I think she's beautiful. Like, I don't care that she gained 10 pounds, 15 pounds, we're both aging. Like, I am so excited when I get to touch her body and touch her curves and be with her. And I'm excited when she is present and enjoying it. When I could sense some desire or passion in her and, like. And I'm giving her pleasure and she's enjoying it. Yeah, it's that. That mindful. You know, one aspect of mindful intimacy is how to be present in the moment despite shame, embarrassment, distracting thoughts, and know that our partner isn't thinking those things that often that we're worried about. They are just really happy and. And wants us to be, you know, as confident and present as possible and. And enjoying it.

[A]

Yeah. So I think that's massive. And I think that's, like. I just want people to hear that. That, like, the difference is, is like when we're in the bedroom and. Or wherever we're having sex or having intimacy and the person is saying words like, I'm enjoying this, or this is fine, or no, you're not taking too long. You know, like all those things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, we have to let those words sink in. Yes. Turn down the noise on all the conditioning, because that's what's happening in a lot of women's heads, that they're like, oh, he's just saying that. Or. And it's like, what if he was not? Just like, what if he's for real, that he does love your curves, that your butt isn't too big, that.

[B]

That.

[A]

Or that, you know, like, whatever. Like, that's. For me, was my work in. In just, like, letting it sink in and be like, yeah, yeah. You know, like, once I'm in a healthy relationship to just listen to What? Yes, he's saying. And. And what if it were true? And what if I can get out of this other nonsense, you know, that society's told me that you need to have, like. No, like, what wrinkles are going to affect his sex drive? I.

[B]

Right, right. So I have to. Absolutely. And I have two thoughts about that. One of it is we're already in this sexual encounter with somebody, you know, so it's like, may as well make the best of it. And it's funny because there is. There's something that seems to be programmed in us around social anxiety that we. I, you know, we are afraid of being judged. We're afraid of being rejected, which makes sense because we're innately social creatures as humans and as women, we tend to feel this in a much deeper way and then particularly around our bodies. So, you know, recognize like, oh, these alarm systems are going off for a reason because they're trying to protect us, but they're. They're backfiring in that moment for us because we're already in that moment. So, like, recognizing. Recognizing those thoughts and those fears, literally acknowledging them, thinking, in my head, I see you. I acknowledge you. I've got this right now. I'm choosing to be here right now. I'm going to make the best of this. And then anchoring yourself to your five senses of really intentionally, because that brings us back to the present moment and not worried about the past or projecting into the future, but really present. And so if helpful, have some music you like on, like, all the. The cliche, romantic things. They help us tap into our senses and be present in the moment. And a candle, you know, that you have lit or even, like, if you usually lay down in the bed in the same position, lay down in an opposite way, or go on the sofa. Like something that helps stimulate, like, newness and you being present in the moment. And smell your partner and touch their skin and then focus your attention inside your body with the, you know, the pleasurable sensations that you have. And then maybe three seconds later, you're distracted again because you look down and see what your belly looks like. And then you're like, close my eyes. You know, my belly's there. But. And he knows it's there, and we all know it's there. And I'm here to have pleasure, and we're here to connect with each other. So it is over and over again, retraining our brain, acknowledging the thoughts, coming back to those five senses and knowing that you have a right to pleasure and. And enjoyment regardless of what your body looks like, what you think it looks like.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's huge, too. In terms of the messaging. We get that you have a right to pleasure. Like, you have a right to feel good and to feel this sort of, you know, way especially. I want to talk a little bit about desire, but if you are the lower desire person and then you're like, oh, okay, like, I can do it, you know, on Tuesday night or something. So you're coming into it with, like, resentment. I like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I like your. You know, you're like, you're in it. Like, let's see what. Like, you make the best of it.

[B]

If you're going to be.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Let's just now try to be in the moment and maybe we can work with our coach on some of that resentment.

[B]

But, like, exactly.

[A]

Yeah. And.

[B]

And acknowledging it is important because if you're coming in and it's only. And you have resentment and obligation and you're going through the motions of sexual encounters, that can definitely build a wall between partners. I don't think it's great because then we're, you know, we're. It's. It can feel like a violation to our bodies.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

But if you are with a partner who you truly love and you want to do this because you guys connect and it's really meaningful to your partner if it's more meaningful to them than you, but you do get enjoyment out of it. You're not having pain because that's its own separate thing. What can you do to be like, all right, let's make the best of this. I'm here. I'm choosing to be here. I could choose to view this as a gift for my partner and then trust that my body's going to kick in and I am going to get aroused and. And feel desire and experience some pleasure in it. And, you know, that requires communication as our bodies, especially as women, it's like a moving target. It's always changing. What does. It doesn't feel good. Yeah.

[A]

Well, that's where learning about desire really helped me a lot to just sort of, you know, that, like, the different types of desire and. And learning about it and maybe not feeling broken so much. Could you speak a little bit about our desire? The.

[B]

Yeah, so. And desire, I will say, is a. Is a tricky thing that is still not well understood, and we know it's not, or else they would have a pill to help with it. And there are pills out there, but they are not particularly effective. They might help a little bit, and they have side effects and it's not great. So desire is not. And desire is different than arousal. So arousal is at its most basic, blood flow to our genitals. And you know, for a man that's an erection. And for women it's engorgement around the vulva and the clitoris and inside the vagina. And that makes things feel good. And we also then get vaginal lubrication. I mean, post menopause that can all change, so. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. If you have a topical estrogen, also like a lube that's like particularly good and designed for drier skin. But anyway, so that is arousal. Desire. Is that that yearning, that, that, that like sexual spark, that horniness?

[A]

It's.

[B]

Yeah, it's. I mean the, the, the main version of it that we tend to learn is spontaneous desire. And I like to think of that as like the 18 year old young man version of this. He's just walking down the street and a breeze hits him in the right way and he's like, all right, game on. Let's, let's do this. Uh, and that's the Hollywood version of it also. And that's often what we feel earlier in a relationship, but over time, in long term relationships, and if you're the lower desire person, you may never feel spontaneous desire. Or if you're still ovulating and you're not on the pill, you might feel it a little bit around ovulation time. So. But what we often have in long term relationships is responsive desire. So when we are in the right context, we're feeling emotionally connected to our partner. We haven't been arguing like the dishes are done, the kids aren't next door that can overhear us. We don't have dogs scratching at the door. We're not bloated from just having a big meal. We feel well rested. It's not when we're falling asleep. So there's a lot of factors. But then in that context of, of, of the right environment and connection with our partner, then we could take that leap of faith and be like, oh yeah, I, I love you. I love connecting with you. Let's. How about you start kissing my neck a little bit and I'm going to grab a vibrator and like start getting myself warmed up some. Or, or we can, you know, read some erotica together and then you take that leap of faith and your body starts getting aroused and then that leads to desire, which then leads to more arousal, which then leads to pleasure instead of waiting for desire to hit for first.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because if you're not feeling it much, you could be waiting for a really long time. So that's. It's a reframing of how we view desire and arousal.

[A]

Well, and I really appreciate that because it's just knowing the two differences between, you know, spontaneous and responsive. I. Someone. Maybe it was Emily Nagoski someone referred to. Like, one of them is more like the microwave of design. Like, you just like, turn it on and it's good. Slow cooker.

[B]

Yes. Yeah.

[A]

My husband and I talked about this, and so we talked about, you know, like, we'll have open conversations about, okay, well, maybe tonight. And I just. One of the things he's like, I'm going to start simmering. You, like, so, like. So I see like a little simmering. So it's just like, you know, in the morning, it's like, oh, you know, here's your coffee. And like, that sort of like, get that slow cooker. Turn the slow cooker on. And just this idea and like, starting to get excited in our thoughts about, like, okay, this is a man that loves me, who likes my curves. And no, I'm not feeling any sort of horniness or any right whatsoever in my genitals. Yeah. But I am, you know, in that day. I'm paying more attention and thinking more loving thoughts, which then can help get my slow cooker going.

[B]

That's awesome. But that's so great. He's so mindful of being like, yeah, no, foreplay isn't just, you know, three minutes or five minutes of just kissing you and touching your body a little bit. It is a. It's a mental, emotional, physical, sexual, social, spiritual, potentially, like, all of those components that you feel very, like, seen and connected and appreciative and appreciated. So that's lovely. I love that.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I also like how you're. And I just want the listeners to hear this. This, like, speaking to this part of, like, how our desire and our arousal is all over the place and that, like, you know, maybe, like, one day we're totally in it, and the next day we can be doing the, like, kissing on the. On the neck and the vibrator, and we're still just, like, cold, you know, and it's just this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really getting the message across that they're not broken. And that is a moving target. And that's something where. Now, this is. My second husband and I went into this relationship really, with the mindset that I was like, this marriage is going to keep getting better and more connected all along. So I've Been working on this communication now is way different than I was as a 30 year old. But this open communication of like what worked one day may not work another. And that doesn't mean that I'm broken. It just means like, oh, I don't know what the hell my hormones are doing today, but I might need a little more rubbing on my arm before I even like, like touch my shirt. Like, you know.

[B]

Right, right. And it also doesn't mean he's doing anything wrong that your partner, they are not, they're not doing wrong. They're not bad lovers. It doesn't mean you're not attracted to them. It doesn't mean they're not desirable.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so often that gets all quit, you know, quite together. And so to realize you're like, yeah, no, this is women's bodies in long term relationships with, you know, the stress of life and the shifts of hormones and, and how do we work as a team together? We want to maintain and build this intimacy. How do you be creative? How do you be, how do you be courageous? How do you be resilient and how do you be loving with each other?

[A]

Well, and what you're saying about the team, and that's why like how we do sex, you know, how we do one thing is how we do everything because it is that communication. And if say we're communicating about the kids carpools and we just, our communication skills aren't the greatest and we get defensive and argumentative. Right. It's the same thing where it's like, hey, could you rub me a little more there? And he takes it defensively like he's doing something wrong. So I like the team approach and that it's not just a, a flip like it, it, it, it's not just like a one and done. That it is a scope to be built ongoing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Because I know, you know for sure when we first got together there was sensitivity there and like I, you know, we want to do it the quote unquote right way. But when it's like there is no right way. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Or there's a right way in this moment that works in this moment right.

[A]

Now it looks like this is the right way and just having some of that, I guess that flexibility with us as women. I, I'm reminded of how just our whole, you know, we were talking earlier about procreating and like as a woman we had to be much more selective with our mates. And when we had sex, like we first of all ovulate, you know, during one period of the month where the man can have a baby multiple times a day. Like he can, you know, sperm a baby. Whereas we have, we're much more selective. And I, yeah, sometimes that helps me when I'm like, okay, yes, like the dishes do need to be done. Like all this stuff needs to be done before I can get out of my head. And that's because I'm a very selective, intelligent person.

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I love it. And so you mentioned Emily Nagaski and her book come as you are and her latest one, come together. There's are just really great books for, for understanding sexuality and sexual connection in long term relationships. And one of the things she speaks in there, she speaks of the research around brakes and accelerators and that it literally works in that way in our brain around like the dual control model of sexual desire or something. I know it's dual control model of something. And that it's, that it really works that way that we have things that excite us and we have things that inhibit us. And so often when we learn how to quote unquote, fix our sex lives or you know, get add excitement and spice up your sex life, it's so often pushing the accelerator. But if there is a break on and a break on, have you push the accelerator all you want, you're not going to get anywhere. And so all of these components, and it does seem in general that as women we just have more components that can hit our brakes. And I do think that speaking to what you just said, evolutionary wise as animals we do need to be more selective because the, at least in our fertility years, which is, you know, again, why we have sex as animals is so that we can have a baby. And a baby is a massive, massive expense of, of everything.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of your, of your body and your time. And we're also. Women are more defenseless when pregnant and giving birth and having a little baby to protect. So I do think it makes sense. I understand it could be frustrating as our partners, but like, it's not like women aren't trying to be difficult. You know, we're just doing the best we have in a society that we didn't learn a lot about these topics and we're taught to blame ourselves or then want to, you know, bury our heads with shame because we feel bad. And so it just that realizing, okay, what are components of the brakes? What does push the accelerator? And then how can we also for lower desire people, how do we prime our own pumps and not expect our partner is the one is the only one that can elicit desire in us and arousal. And so I mentioned reading erotica. There's great audio erotic apps out there and listening to sexy stories, which are really good. They're well acted. They've got sound effects. Like, you listen to a few minutes of something like that while you're in the grocery store and you're like, oh, yeah, this is like the hottest grocery store trip ever.

[A]

Oh, my God, that's so fun.

[B]

Like driving home or doing the dishes or coming home from work or going for a jog or anywhere you can prime your own pump by finding stories that turn you on. And our brain, you know, in that way, is our biggest sex organ in terms of fantasizing and getting turned on. So. And then, you know, and then, you know, grab a vibrator and move it around your vulva and just start, start getting some blood flow to that area. And then maybe if you're not the one who initiates much, then you've got your juices flowing a little bit and you can go initiate with your partner. And they were probably going to be delighted if they're the higher desire person and because then they feel desired and they feel wanted by you.

[A]

Well, and I'd asked my Instagram followers, I told them that I was having you on and ask them some questions. And one of the questions that came up a couple different ways, but basically saying that, like, their partner keeps asking what they want in sex, but they don't know and how to figure it out. And a lot of what you're just saying there, like, just play around, like, see if listening to erotica is helpful. I guess one thing I want to say about that, that as a former Catholic girl and I hear from a lot of people, is, and maybe you can speak to this like, the things that turn us on aren't necessarily. It doesn't necessarily mean we actually want to do that. Like.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's very different.

[B]

So good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, like, years ago, probably it was at least 15 years ago, I, I interviewed about 35 women about all sorts of details about sex and desire and masturbation and fantasies and on sexual abuse, this whole host of, of things. And the topic, one of the topics they were most embarrassed about was fantasies and sharing any fantasies that they have because they are so perfect personal. And so often as women, we think there's something wrong with us if we have this, you know, fantasy of like, somebody overtaking us, a stranger so overwhelmed with desire, and they want us. And that does not at all mean we want that in our real life with the consequences of that. Where we haven't consented or somebody's taking something from us or assaulting us, like not at all, or threesomes or yeah. I don't know. Sex with robots. Because the erotica can go in all sorts of directions. You know, you're like, yeah, no practicality of this or practicality of group sex with 10 other people. You're like, okay, this is gross. Or like, there's too many bodies, there's too much fluid. Like, I can't, like what. So, but in our heads, like, that stuff can be really, really hot. There does seem to be a gender difference that I found over the years that women are much less likely to ever want to live out their fantasies because there's just, there's too much logistics and fear and danger and potential.

[A]

Maybe that evolutionary part kicking in too, where it's yes.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Where they're just like, all those breaks.

[B]

Are like, yeah, there's nothing that this is. And not that there isn't potentially some. And maybe that's learnings from society or learnings from Catholic upbringing. So there could be shame and embarrassment to get over. It could be getting in the way. But often it's just like, no, that actually is dangerous. And I, I don't like that. Or I really just like being with one person.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Most many men, when they have fantasies, they do want to act them out.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I think as women, it could be hard to watch to share them with men. One, because it feels so personal. And two, then they're like, all right, let's go to a club.

[A]

Or like, you're like, do this.

[B]

Or Right, like, you know, not at all. And it doesn't have to be because of shame or hang ups or anything. It's just. You're like, yeah, no, that's, that's why I can enjoy it and get turned on by it because it's safe in my head.

[A]

It's safe in my head and I.

[B]

Still have control in that way.

[A]

Yeah. And I guess the people who are asking this question, they can just get started by maybe listening to some of this erotica or reading, you know, some even like romance novels or any, anything and just playing around with it. They don't have to share it with their partner. They can just be in their head. But to start paying some attention. Yeah. Even hearing you say, like, with the vibrator, I know some of my listeners are like, oh, my God. But again, it's like we use technology for so many other aspects of our life to make it better. And certainly. And you know, perimenopause and menopause, it's like, you know, use whatever you need to.

[B]

Yes. And especially with hormonal changes. Yeah. I mean, first of all, we're all wired differently around pleasure or not. Like, I literally know women that can get up on a horse and within 30 seconds they're like, oh, yeah, here we go. You know, or sit on top of a, like a washing machine. I had heard those stories and I was like, shut up. Yeah, there's women who like, if they don't use any technical interventions, it could take them 45 minutes with their hands to be able to have an orgasm. And that's if, like they have enough time to stay focused in their brain.

[A]

Exactly. Yeah.

[B]

Be like, okay, you know what, I've got like 40 other things on my priority list.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So. And then that changes a lot with hormonal and body shifts through pregnancy and birth and then perimenopause and menopause. So just know, like, yeah, there's tools out there that can absolutely help you get blood flow and pleasure. Um, yeah, try them out. And there's so many different ones. So, you know, start with maybe a smaller one and then start kind of building up to see what works for you.

[A]

I. I love it. Um, and so another question that came in was, what about if we haven't had sex with for weeks, months, or even years?

[B]

Yeah, super common. Like the official definition of a sexless marriage is, I think sex. You have like intercourse or sex 10 times or less a year. And I was like, for a lot of long term married couples, 10 times is a lot in a year. That's almost once a month.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it's not uncommon, I would say. I mean, there's, there's a lot. Right. There's a lot to unpack because it really depends on how long it's been. And if somebody, if one person, if there's a higher desire person who is really missing it and disappointed and upset, if you are going to start working on it and trying to reconnect, you really need to commit to it. Because what happens is folks do have the best intentions, Their partner is upset, they're like, okay, we're going to do it. And then for like a month they do it. And then, and then it just goes back to how it was. Because this is, it needs to be incredibly intentional because this isn't going to just fix itself on its own. And so, you know, one of the things that I like to tell Folks to do is something I call Happy Naked Fun Time. HNFP HN F T. And it is creating space, like scheduling time and space to be intimate together. And it doesn't have to be sex per se, but that you're prioritizing 45 minutes once a week with no technology and no interruptions, ideally including pets and, and that you get to be naked or mostly naked, and you're cuddling with each other and you're touching and you're talking about your day and you're having quality time and maybe you're looking in each other's eyes, literally, you could be wrestling, you could play a game if you want, but just to start normalizing this and maybe some massage and then hopefully maybe, you know, your body will kick in a little bit. You know, if you have, if you put an expectation on yourself though of like, ah, you have to perform, then that's probably going to, if you're the lower desired person, it's going to kill it. Exactly.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So it's just. If it's only been a few weeks and that's unusual for you, then use Happy Naked Fun Time. Yeah, if it's been a really long time, that means there's all these other blocks and barriers and resentments and misunderstandings and expectations. Expectation just needs more like a coach or a therapist, right?

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Yeah. To be able to talk it through and get on the same page as somebody that can, who knows, who's an expert in these areas that can facilitate a conversation for you to help you get on the same page with doing activities together. You both have the same expectations, you know how to communicate, you know how to be a team with it and then how to move forward from there. So. But I mean, if you're both low desire and neither of you truly misses it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There's not a problem.

[A]

That's also. I'm, I'm glad that you spoke to that because it's like, is it a problem? You know, is it something. But if, if it, if, if you're writing a question and you're sort of, you're not coming from that. Like, well, everyone, I think everyone else is doing, you know, more or less or like, but if you're just coming from a, like I'm uncomfortable with it, I might want something different, then that's absolutely. To start the path forward. And it would be similar to like, say you haven't exercised in weeks, months or years, like, what do you do? There's. Why haven't you. And let's not get back into it the exact same way we were doing it before. Because some of, oh my gosh, desire is, you know, it's like, are you desiring sex worth having? You know, and maybe the sex you were having was not anything that was fun for you. So, you know, Emily Nagaski's books are good. Do you know that? Ian Kern, I think Kerner.

[B]

Ian Kerner, I think. Yeah. He's got. She Comes first.

[A]

She Comes first was the one. My husband, for all of our sons. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my God, I love that. It's like, why didn't I have this when I was 20? Yeah, exactly.

[B]

Oh, that's delightful.

[A]

It's an excellent book for the males. And just again, it's like if, if you want, you know, if you're writing in and asking like, you know, we haven't had sex, what do we do? And there's a desire there to have more sex. It's like, absolutely, that can happen. And to take, you know, there are lots of resources out there and.

[B]

And that's a lot of starting really slow. Exactly. I think what you just said, that analogy to exercise, like if you used to jog five miles a few times a week and now you haven't done anything in a long time or you were injured or whatever, you don't go back to five miles an hour. Like, you start very slow and you walk and you start normalizing it and you create a schedule around it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You're delivering matters.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And I guess another thing I heard you speak to is this like, you know, happy naked fun time. Like how great is that? And that it's. You're sort of opening up this idea that it doesn't have to be penetrative sex like that. I like thinking of like intimacy as like a menu. And it can be, you know, and so maybe just you have a massage and maybe 45 minutes, people are freaking out. So they do 10 minutes or maybe you just.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I've had some couples do like exchange back massages, you know, on Tuesday or Saturday. And that can lead somewhere nice or just you feel more connected.

[B]

Exactly. Yeah. So just as slowly easing your way and to normalize even being naked and touching each other without clothes on and then slowly move into the genitals. But yeah, that like, that's slow, that getting feedback. Don't like this. You know, you're not 22 year olds jumping into sack to have intercourse. Like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You've been together a long time, your bodies have shifted and changed. It's very vulnerable. Like intimacy at the Core of intimacy is raw vulnerability and trusting the person you're with and creating the safe space that they can trust you. And it is very scary and it is very beautiful.

[A]

Yeah. I was going to say it's very rewarding too. It is that, like. It is that part of, you know, love where it's like, oh, my God, if I open myself up, I could, you know, be embarrassed or be hurt. And it's like, yes. And if you don't, like, if you're sort of holding yourself back, you're only experiencing half of the.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

In the bright. Okay.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Thank you. You've helped so much already. I could. Yeah. Listeners who are like, I want more Dr. Jen. How would they. Sure. Yeah.

[B]

My main hub for my stuff is my main website. It's Dr. Jens den.com. it's D R J E N N S D E N. And my book on there, From Madness to Mindfulness, Reinventing Sex for Women is on there. I have tons of interviews and, and, and articles and videos and it's just there's a wealth of information on there if these topics, if you're interested in them. And then you can also find me on Instagram and TikTok and sort of Twitter. Not really. And LinkedIn. Actually, I'm quite active on LinkedIn. So, yeah, I just have to, you know, tone down the sex stuff. But yeah, so I'm out there on all the socials, so please find me, please follow me.

[A]

Definitely find her. Tell her what you heard from us.

[B]

Comment, share with others, episodes for sure.

[A]

And yes, I can tell that your website is amazing and you're incredibly generous with the information you have.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you so much for coming on the show today. I know this helped a lot of people.

[B]

Awesome. Thanks, Susie. I loved your questions. This was a lot of fun. Your energy is really fun too. Thank you.