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Love Your Life Show: Personal Growth, Mindset, + Habits for Busy Moms
Unlock the Power of the Enneagram: A Journey to Self-Discovery
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- [00:01]
Susie Pettit
Oh warriors. I am so excited because I have something really fun for you on the Love youe Life show today. It is a master class on a personality typing system called the Enneagram. And My guest is Dr. Deborah Egerton. And she is not only a psychotherapist and a best selling author, she's also a certified Enneagram teacher, but an expert on the Enneagram. The Enneagram is a tool that I've been wanting to bring to you on the podcast for so long because it is a tool that I use daily and it helps me daily in my relationship with myself and my relationship with my kids, with my husband, with other people that I meet. It gives me a better way to connect and communicate and understand people. And so I wanted to have Dr. E on the show because she is one of the best in teaching the Enneagram not only at an individual level, but she also goes into corporations and teaches the Enneagram on a corporate level. So if this conversation interests you and you're in that sort of environment, think of having her in because she brings a lot of ease to corporations. I've used the Enneagram not only in my nuclear family, I've also used it in my business, I've used it with my friendships. And it's been such a helpful tool when we're struggling to understand like why someone does the thing they do or why aren't they doing it the way that we did it. The Enneagram helps. So listen in. I cannot wait until you hear and then follow up with Dr. Enneagram and Dr. E. Dr. Enneagram, Dr. E. And you'll want to listen to the end because she gives us a special treat just for our listeners. So listen in. Let me make sure I've given her whole Bio. She is Dr. Deborah Egerton, PhD, is a globally renowned psychotherapist, best selling author, certified Enneagram teacher, executive coach and spiritual guide. You will feel that warmth warriors. As president of the International Enneagram association, she holds an IEA certification with distinction for her pioneering use of the Enneagram in humanitarian healing. Affectionately known as Dr. E, she passionately dismantles marginalization, fostering unity through kindness and compassion. Her coaching spans diverse individuals from bestselling authors to executives, emphasizing compassionate approach to inner work using the transformative power of the Enneagram over three decades. Listen in and then show us some love. Send me an email. Follow her on Instagram. I give lots of ideas at the end. I'm so excited for you listening to Listen, let me just dive right in. Let's go foreign. Hi. This is the Love youe Life show with Susie Pettit, certified life and wellness coach. Join Susie as she helps you with your wellness and mindset so you can live a life you love. Let's go, warriors. And welcome to the Love youe Life Show. Dr. E, I am so, so excited to have you here. Thank you very much for coming on.
- [03:12]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Well, thank you for inviting me. I've been looking forward to this.
- [03:15]
Susie Pettit
Yay. Well, I just. We were chatting before, and I was like, we need to start recording. Because I have been so looking forward to having you on the show to talk about Enneagram. Because the way I learned about Enneagram, maybe five or six years ago, I mistyped myself, but I was all in on my mistype. And then when I found you and started learning, learning about the Enneagram through you, it felt like someone really understood me and saw the true me and in a scary and exciting way at the same time. Like, really comforting, but also like, oh, my God. And that's what I want to bring listeners to today. Because most of us women have spent the first part of our lives putting everyone else's needs and everyone else's desires and, you know, all ahead of our own, in addition to knowing about everyone else even greater than we know ourselves. And I find that a lot of my listeners are in this stage as their kids start to grow and leave the house or, you know, they're starting to look at different job things that they're in this area with, like, who am I? You know, who am I? I've spent my whole almost feeling like a shell, you know, I've spent my whole life thinking of other people or acting in a certain way for other people, and. And what the heck? Now what? And I find that the Enneagram is really like opening a door of discovery. And for me, it has been. And I would just love for you to just talk to our listeners a little. If they've never heard of the Enneagram, they're like, any.
- [04:52]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
What?
- [04:52]
Susie Pettit
Like, could you give a little background or, you know, what the Enneagram is and why I'm sitting here like, it's the best friend I've never had.
- [05:04]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Gushing reasons that you are responding to it the way that you are is because I call the Enneagram a blueprint to your soul. Or for those who, you know, don't resonate so much with the concept of a soul, it's the instruction manual for your life that you wish you had been born with, but you were not for real. Yeah. I mean, absolutely. I have to say that my experience in discovering the Enneagram, you know, over two decades ago and learning about myself and the people that I loved and the people that I interacted with, was a transformative experience. I recognized that I had been going through my life trying to be the best person that I could be, but I really didn't have everything that I needed to assist me on that journey. I am a woman of faith, so I would pray about it, you know, and say, just help me be better. But eventually, I found the Enneagram, and my. My reaction to it at first was, oh, my gosh. Is this wonderful? Or is this scary, spooky, creepy? What? What? And then I recognized that, no, this is amazing. This is amazing. And so, just so that your listeners know what we're talking about, the Enneagram is a psychospiritual tool that identifies nine personality archetypes, or nine developmental patterns of behavior, nine ways of being in the world. And we're all born with one of them. Now we actually have all nine of the Enneagram energies within us, but one of them leads. One of them is the strongest one. And so that's what has been sort of typically referred to as your Enneagram type. I don't like to use the word type anymore, primarily because when people hear that, you know, the reaction to that is, you're putting me in a box. You know, don't hype me. Well, if you think of the Enneagram as a developmental pathway or you think of it as energy, everyone understands we're all energy. What energy in you is the strongest, and how does that show up in the world? And there's, of course, the wonderful, lovely upside of your Enneagram energy. And then there's that middle area where, you know, you're just sort of an average human. And then there's the downside. Yeah. Of course, when we look at the downside, for me, that's what made me curl up into a little ball and cry for three weeks.
- [08:09]
Susie Pettit
Yeah.
- [08:10]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Because I didn't want to look at that. However, just staying on. The upside of everything is staying within a comfort zone, and there's no growth. So if you're not looking at the way that you show up in the world, the way that other people may experience your highs and your lows, then your opportunity for growth and healthy development over your life is somewhat sky meet. So you've got to look at all of it, accept it, embrace love it. And grow.
- [08:45]
Susie Pettit
Yeah, for me, it sort of helped me, like, in having a type or I didn't necessarily resist the box. I. Probably because of the type that I am. But it gave me some constraint and understanding to be like, oh, like, oh, this is all this one thing that, like, instead of, like, it being, you know, all these areas of my life that I'm like, oh, no, no, it's just because you're being driven by this, you know, core motivation, or, oh, this is all sort of under this umbrella. And when it shows up this way, like, you're acting in your highest self, Susie. When it shows up this way, like, you're acting like, really, like, crazy lady. So it was really helpful for me in that way that, you know, I've taken a lot of personality quote unquote tests, like the Myers Briggs. And that's all really helpful too. But the Enneagram is one that, you know, when you talk about your soul's blueprint, that's what it feels like to me. Like, it just seeps into every single, like, cell of mine. Like, it's. It's everywhere. And so that could be, like, exciting. It could also be like, like crawl. Like, crawl on the floor. Holy moly.
- [09:56]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Laugh about that. Because I tell people, particularly when they learn from me, that love me, hate me, whatever, but once you know, you can't not know, okay? You can't not know. And so at point, you know, if you're choosing to show up in what we would call, say, the shadow side, you know, if the shadow side of your personality, your behaviors is what's showing up and you're refusing to look at it and embrace it, own it, you know, not shame it, you know, not blame it, but just embrace the reality that this is something that I do. This is something that I have done over and over again throughout my life. This is something that is holding me back and it's not allowing me to land in my authentic self. I mean, it's a gift.
- [10:55]
Susie Pettit
It is a gift. It is. And it is at listeners of this show. I mean, it's the Love youe Life show. They're. They're in it for self development. And it is a level of emotional maturity to just sort of be able to accept, first of all, without shaming ourselves, like, oh, yeah, I do, you know, do this thing. And that's all humans do something so interesting that I now know what my thing is, you know, and that. That maturity that comes from, you know, not blaming everyone else, but sort of stepping into those adult shoes and being like, okay, let me look at this. So could we go over the nine types? Because I very much know my listeners are gonna be like, oh, my gosh, tell them. Tell me, Dr. E, help.
- [11:43]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
I always start. There are nine types, but there are three types in each one of what we call the centers of intelligence. So we have the wisdom of the head, we have the wisdom of the heart, and we have the wisdom of the body, which culminates in the gut. So the three types, we start at the lowest level and work up the three types in the gut center, the body center, are 8, 9 and 1, and 8. The energy at point 8 is that of the challenger, Someone who is very strong, opinionated, wants control, does not want to be vulnerable, and has tattooed on their forehead, do not mess with me. So apes are strong willed, decisive, opinionated, and they like control. They do not like to be vulnerable. Vulnerable. Vulnerability is like kryptonite, you know, Superman and it's kryptonite. But actually, the vulnerability part of it is where the eight's true strength is, because eights have very, very, very soft hearts. And so, you know, all of that bravado and all that barbed wire is just to keep you from piercing a soft heart. Then we have the nine who's called the peacemaker. And nines are sort of chill, you know, can't we all just get along on the forehead? And they really mean it. Nines don't like conflict. Nines are approachable and will usually go along and do something if asked, but also can be somewhat detached and will lean back. Whereas there's another type that looks like nine that leans in. Nines lean back. And nines, eights, nines and ones are all in what we call the anger triad as well. Nines have a temper just like eights do. And I call that the volcano. I'll go back, go back over the three types and the difference in the anger. But for nines, this. This sort of living life from a place of trying to avoid conflict can create situations that will be much worse because if they had dealt with the minor conflict in the beginning, then it would not have escalated into the main major conflict that they have to go through later. But at the heart of the nine is empathy and compassion and really a heart that is looking for trying to make things work for all people. The agenda is not just about self. It's if I'm going to maintain my peace at point nine, then I need for you all to be peaceful as well. So that's your nine at point one, which happens to be my point, you have people who are. Have a very strong moral compass, and the moral compass leads to how hard is it to just do the right thing? Okay, there it is blazing right there on the forehead. And the how hard is it to not to do the right thing is a beautiful way to live your life if you're always aiming to do the right thing, but through whose lens? And so the challenge at point one, and I call the people who have point one energy, they're often known as reformers. I didn't happen to like that term so much. And since I write the books, I actually said that when we look at people at point one, there's reformists. There are also people who are considered to be perfectionists, but I've never met a one who thought that they were perfect perfectionists. So I call one's idealist. We're actually looking for the ideal circumstance, the ideal way to do something, and we actually look at that, you know, in a very sort of man from La Mancha to dream the impossible dream way. Yeah, we want the world to be better, and we want to help to make it better. And one of the challenges I always share with my type 1 sort of family is that when you're constantly looking at what's wrong, which ones do have an eye for. You can walk into a room, everything can be perfect, but one picture will be crooked. First thing you'll do is walk over to that picture and straighten it. They know superpower, but that superpower can be harmful because if you're constantly trying to fix other people, what's the message? The messages. You're broken. And so learning how to embody the reality that sometimes things are perfectly fine exactly as they are. And there are. There is beauty in broken spaces. That's the 1. Now, 8, 9, and 1. Strong temper. Strong anger energy. The 8 will cuss you out, tell you exactly what they feel, and then say, now that I'm done with that, let's go have lunch. You may not want to go to lunch with eight after that, but they're done. No, I've gotten it out. I feel better. The nine. It's been churning in there for so long. And nines deny the anger because they don't want to deal with the conflict. But when it gets to the point that they can't handle it anymore, the volcano blows. Now, unlike the eight, nines do not feel better when the anger comes out. It's just like the volcano. It scorches its own skin. It scorches itself. And nine is not going to ask you to lunch. Nine needs some time heal, you know, because you made me get angry. Leave it alone. You just kept pushing and pushing and now I've become the epitome of what I don't want to be in the middle of a conflict and particularly with loved ones. And then once the anger is really, it sneaks up on you once tend to try to tamp the anger down until it's impossible to do it anymore. And then it usually manifests in mean spirited words. You know, they, it say I'm going to tell you exactly what's wrong with you and why I'm angry and all the things that you've done up to this point that had this, that had made this anger surface. And literally the anger is so acerbic at that point that the person who is a recipient of it is not prepared for, you know, such kind of mean spirited anger. So all three of those shiny little energies are in the anger triad. Okay, um, when we get. Go ahead.
- [19:22]
Susie Pettit
Well, I just, I have an eight and a nine and a one and I am a one in my life. And I, one thing that I, I just, it comes up for me, the anger for sure with the eight is like hot and you know it and like when it's there, but it also like passes very quickly like a quick storm. Like it's like whatever. Whereas the 9 seems a little more passive aggressive. Like it'll like, you'll see it building when it explodes. It's big. But like that's my thing that I sort of pick up on is the passive aggressive. And then for the one I sense like before it blows is the resentment. Like I, I just notice in myself that's when I know I'm sort of in that anger places. I'm just building up this bubble of resentment and, and you know, everyone else is doing this wrong and like this whole. And so it's. Yeah, it's another. I just wanted to add that because that is interesting to me how the anger comes up or shows up or.
- [20:22]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
And what you're saying particularly about the 9 and the passive aggressive, that is a wake up call for the nine. When they recognize that that passive aggressive behavior is starting to really manifest. However, it's usually pointed out by someone else, you know, why are you so passive aggressive? I'm not passive aggressive.
- [20:46]
Susie Pettit
And there's the, there it is, you.
- [20:49]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Know, and that's the, you know, now you're, you're picking at the scab and you're going to knock it off and then you're going to get that, you know, really angry response that meant for the one is huge. And it, it's not just about other people doing it wrong. It's also about other people enjoying their lives, just having fun, just doing what they want to do when they want to do it. And you know, at point one it's what we should do over what we want to do. And so it's really very freeing at point one to understand, you know, what you've made this little, what you have to do cage for yourself. That's what I mean about not crawling into that box.
- [21:44]
Susie Pettit
Yeah, yeah. You made the rules for yourself. Yeah, yeah.
- [21:49]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
And then you start decorating the inside of the box and then you're isolated from everyone who's living life, you know, in a more and loving manner. And of course, course it's going to be a feeling of resentment. I, I, I often say that sometimes the one reminds me of the little church lady, but the little mean church lady who has spent her whole life really trying to do the right thing. Life has passed, passed you by and everyone else enjoyed their life and you didn't. Yeah, yeah. So like I said, blueprint to your soul. Really important. Really important.
- [22:37]
Susie Pettit
Yeah.
- [22:37]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Thank you. Want me to move to the heart center?
- [22:40]
Susie Pettit
Yes, please. Tell me about those twos. I think I have some twos listening.
- [22:44]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Yeah, yeah. Two wing. Two wing, both of us. So in the heart center where the emotions lie, we have 2, 3 and 4. The energy at point 2 is that of someone who wants to give love and receive love. Twos want to be lovable. We want to go out into the world and give as much love as we possibly can with the assumption that that love is going to come back to us in some way, shape or form. The challenge at point two around the love is that the greatest fear is of being unlovable and unwanted. And so you know the song Looking for love in all the wrong places, that that can very much be a theme for the two energy in the world because the love that is expected is not always going to be returned. And it's very disappointing when you are a two and you are trying to put love out into the world but you're, when you really need something, you're coming up empty. And what the flight attendant says about putting your oxygen on yourself first and then with anyone that's traveling with you who may be a child or an adult who's acting like a child in that moment. Want twos need to learn how to love themselves first. And you cannot keep giving once you have emptied out your. Your tank. Your loved is empty, but you're still trying. And it's a stereotypical type for women. However, you know, the different nine types have no, no gender, race, none at all. But we think of mothers, moms look like 2. Energy. You'll do anything for your child. You'll do anything for a really good friend. You'll do anything for your parents. But what done for yourself.
- [25:10]
Susie Pettit
Yeah, like you're over giving. Over giving. And it's like, when's the last time you've had a meal? When's the last time? Right.
- [25:15]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Yeah. You know, there's. There's a whole Enneagram series of music. And one day maybe you and I will do this and we'll just do it around the music. But it's Ryan O'Neill, he records under Sleeping at Last and he has all nine of the Enneagram songs. And I always say to people, if you're taking these online tests, even the one that's on my website, go back and then listen to the song that is identified with that type. And if that happens to be your type, oh my gosh, it just cracks you.
- [25:53]
Susie Pettit
I'll put that, some of those links there because that I had the same experience.
- [25:57]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
It's just. Yeah, absolutely. Just, you know, just sort of really hits you, you know, right where you live.
- [26:05]
Susie Pettit
Yeah. So what does two have on their forehead?
- [26:08]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Tattooed on the forehead of a two is, don't you see how much I love you? Don't you see how much I love you? You know, it's. It's that feeling of no one's ever going to love you more than I do. No one's ever going to do more for you than I do. That's why I never say no. I can't say no because if I say no, you're going to think I'm not a good person. I can't do that. So I will say yes to every request until I wear myself completely out. Saying yes to everything and spreading yourself so thin. That is not practicing self love. And self love is not selfish love. It is essential love. It's essential. You know, so that's, that's kind of our two. It's. And I will say this for anyone who happens to know that they are living in the energetic space at point 2. When you are feeling love less. In other words, there's not enough love in your life. You're feeling like no one around you loves you or cares about you, in spite of all the things that you've done to Try to bring love into your heart, then you have to take the energy of your love and turn it towards yourself. And that doesn't mean going to the spa and getting pampered. That means going deep within and looking at some of the inner wounds and inner work that you need to do in order to recognize that you are perfectly lovable. Exactly.
- [27:54]
Susie Pettit
Lovable.
- [27:54]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
I know. Exactly as you are. There's not a thing that you need to do to earn someone's love. You know, you're not broken, you're not flawed, you're beautiful and you're loving and you're kind. But if you continue down that path, just trying to give it all away, then it becomes manipulative and sticky and it doesn't feel good to you or to anyone around you. Yeah. So that's the two. Then we move to the three who's also in the heart center, but in a very different way. And that's what's true of being in all of these centers, but in different ways. Threes are ambitious and want to be the best. They are winners and will go out with that 3 energy. And I. I'm going to be the first one to the top of that mountain. I am going to be the best at anything I attempt or try to do, because that's what I am. That's who I am. I'm the winner of all of it. And what's really happening there is at point three, the energy is looking to look into your eyes and to see the admiration and the respect and the love that you have for how hard I have tried with my 0.3 energy. I have tried to show up and be valuable and indispensable. I can't be replaced because no one can do it as well as I do it. Nobody's going to take you across the winning line, the finish line, the way that I am. And at point three, that energy is of such that how much will I give up? At what cost is this winning continuing to perpetuate itself? So I often say that there's a little bit of a faulty wire between the head and the heart at point three. Why? Because if winning is everything, what are you sacrificing in order to win? Sometimes you're sacrificing family connection. Sometimes you're sacrificing the love of your life. Sometimes you're sacrificing the time with your children. Sometimes you're sacrificing time with your elderly parents. Your health, your health, your being, your mental capacity for just being able to slow it all down. Staying plugged in and connected to everything that's happening is always important to threes. Why? Because at that point, we want to not be left out of the loop. If we're left out of the loop, someone may get ahead of us. The energy goes into whatever. The focus is of winning, of being the best. But like I said, at what cost? And that's my cautionary tale at point three. At what cost are you winning?
- [31:12]
Susie Pettit
Is that that, like, do I matter? Like, am I enough?
- [31:17]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Am I enough? Am I. Do you see that? I am? I am trying so hard to be the best. The question mark is to be the best for who?
- [31:30]
Susie Pettit
Right?
- [31:30]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Yeah, you're doing it for, you know, why are you doing it and how are you doing it? And, you know, coming home to your authentic self who is so much better than any version of yourself that you ever tried to create and part of the three energy can actually shape shift and try to be whatever is needed in order to win. But being authentically who you are and letting go of all these versions, yeah, that's, you know, that's really coming home to the true you.
- [32:10]
Susie Pettit
Yeah.
- [32:11]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Then we move to point four. And I love talking about point four. One of my dear friends and mentors, Russ Hudson, said to me one day, you know, people talk about four is like, it's an awful type to be the fours of the holders of the beauty in the world. And that is so profoundly true. True 4 tend to be people who are creative, who don't want to be anyone else. The energy at point four wants to be unique and it wants to be true to who I am. I don't want to be you. I don't want to be your sister, your cousin. Don't try to force me into a box. It does not fit me. And I don't do boxes. I don't do conformity. I do me. So fourth, have kind of the understanding of self love, but not always the practice of self love down, because at point four, you have beautiful, creative humans who want to stand out and, and to shine with whatever unique talent and ability they were given in this lifetime. However, there's this envy that kind of gets in there. And it's not envy in the traditional sense of the world word. It's why is your life so much easier than mine? Do I struggle to, you know, just have a simple relationship or a friendship or just to be seen and heard and understood? It always seems like it's easier for other people than it is for me. So the 4 Energy is saying, am I broken? Is Something wrong with me? Is it possible for you to even love me?
- [34:23]
Susie Pettit
Yeah. And I just want to point out to listeners, like, how you just explained that to me was really clear. And how there's a high and a low, like, so thinking of, like, the uniqueness, like, if you're in the high part of uniqueness, you're feeling alive with your creativity and bringing your unique individual self there. But if you're in the low side, it's unique. That like, what's wrong with me? Why is everyone else. It's sort of this, like, very victimy. Like, why is everyone else so much. But. And so I. I love the Enneagram for that. Just in the self knowledge. Knowledge of just that one little thing. It's like, oh, it can you. You could be playing on. On either side of that.
- [35:01]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Yeah. The Enneagram does have something, a component called the levels of development. And you can literally, you know, look at the levels of development for your particular point on the Enneagram, and then you can say. Where you can look and say, oh, my gosh, you know, I'm. I'm. I'm dropping down into the unhealthy level. Right. This is me right now. And that when people really go on that Enneagram journey, just to be able to have those sort of touchstones, that information that allows you to see how you're showing up, because people are giving us clues all the time. Why are you offensive? Why are you angry? Why are you so withholding? All right. Sometimes the information that people are sharing with us may be a projection of what they're feeling.
- [36:00]
Susie Pettit
Yeah, for sure.
- [36:01]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
At the same time, if you're hearing a consistent recurring theme in the messages that people are getting giving you, then maybe you are defensive, maybe you are passive aggressive, maybe you are withholding. Where are you in your levels of development? So when I say blueprint to your soul, I mean literally. Literally. Instruction manual for looking at how you're showing up and how it showing up as well. The. The final thing I'll say about Forsaken and the beauty of being able to hold empathy for the empathy and compassion for the world and to be with you in a challenging situation, not try to fix you, not try to make you feel better, just to be by your side. Things are tough or hard or painful. And the way the forts can hold a reservoir of pain, but they can transmute that pain and bring it back out into the world in some beautiful form. You know, I love seeing that, particularly when fours are healthier and happier. That's a Beautiful thing to see, a little funny anecdote. I never encourage people to try to type their children to too early because we can get it so wrong. Bounce all around before it begins to solidify. But, man, if you've got a type 4 child, oh, my goodness. It starts to show up really early.
- [37:44]
Susie Pettit
You know, it pretty early.
- [37:47]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
I'm not wearing that. There's no way. No way. You know, everybody wears that. I'm not wearing that. You know, try to put them in that. By the time you pick them up from school, they've done something creative with what, you know, it's. It's. It's the cutest.
- [38:07]
Susie Pettit
So cool.
- [38:08]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Yeah, it is. Of course, when you're parenting right, you may not feel that way. It's like, just put clothes on. But.
- [38:17]
Susie Pettit
Yeah, but that's why I love the Enneagram, because it gives you that layer of understanding. It's like, oh, they're not just being this obstinate child. It's like, oh, this is their striving for that uniqueness and that creativity and that.
- [38:28]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Yeah, yeah.
- [38:29]
Susie Pettit
And where can I allow that? And where can I maybe not work with that?
- [38:34]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Well, if it's just the obstinate child, they're going to grow out of that. But if it's. If it's for energy, it's gonna stay. It's gonna. Yeah, yeah. Those are all our heart types. And, you know, the world is very much in need of all of us being able to really tap into the energy in the heart triad, in the energies of 2, 3, and 4. We have it within us. But one of the limitations of the Enneagram for many people is learning their type and then not going beyond that. If you learn the entire Enneagram, then what happens if you really begin to study it, you become aware of the other eight energies when you need them, and how they show up in you during the pandemic. And you may have had this experience. Susie, we're at 0.1 man was 9 a good friend. Which is a wing during the pandemic was like, oh, yeah, What? I can binge watch a whole series.
- [39:47]
Susie Pettit
Hold on.
- [39:48]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Wait a minute. I. I'm always up doing something productive. Yeah, yeah, no, sit back now. And I'm gonna watch all of Bridgerton. Yeah. And I'm watch Downton Abbey all over.
- [40:01]
Susie Pettit
Right, Exactly. No, it can be. I do appreciate. It's like, learn. You know, try to figure out where the listener is. But then also learning all nine types has given me a great. And I'm still learning. Obviously, it's Like, I don't know if you ever stopped learning the Enneagram.
- [40:17]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
You made that point when you said, you know, you can do all, all different types of personality assessments. But the, the funny thing about the Enneagram is once you pick it up and you find yourself, you kind of stay on the journey.
- [40:32]
Susie Pettit
You don't need anything else. And it is so deep. Like you can. I just feel like it's a life long. Yeah. And, and it's. We didn't really even touch on it, but it's like been here for a really long time.
- [40:44]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
So.
- [40:44]
Susie Pettit
So it just keep learning listeners. So tell us about the five.
- [40:48]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Okay, so five, we're now in the head center. And I want to point out once we leave the heart center and we go to the head center, there's a shock point when we, you know, go to any of the centers. But if you look at the Enneagram symbol, there's that gap between four and five.
- [41:03]
Susie Pettit
Okay.
- [41:03]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
And sometimes going from a heart center center to the head center, it's almost like the dark night of the soul. And I. That as who has, who in life has not had a conflict between the head and the heart? You know, who has not been in that situation where. I know I shouldn't be with them, but. Right. Yes. You know, so it's, it's, it's, it's an, it's. I kind of distill it down to that to make it more understandable. But in life we sometimes have to take that journey and when we get to the head center, there's a little bit of a jolt because once we go up into our heads, and particularly at point five, we find at point five, this energy of I need to be competent, I need to be capable, I need, I need to know everything that I can possibly know. That knowledge is power for me and I'm going to take that knowledge and that's how I'm going to find my place in the world. So the 5 Energy is seeking to find a way to belong through competence and knowledge and information. My warning to my 0.5 energy friends is always when data and information becomes more important to you than the people in your life. That needs to be a wake up call. When you'd rather be studying, when you'd rather be investigating than interacting with someone that you love and who loves you in return, then that is a wake up call. Because you're not a disembodied head. You're a whole human being with brilliant thoughts. And the way the mind of a five Works is incredible. Anyone who, who saw the movie A beautiful mind, you know, when Russell Crowe standing there and looking at the connections between everything, point five, all things are connected and you don't want just a little piece of information, you want to know it all. So just being mindful that to come back to yourself, to come back whole general, authentic self in a way where you can understand that you are loved and you are lovable and you do belong and that this is not what's going to create your belonging in the world. Then we go to point six where we have beautiful human beings who are prone to worst case scenario thinking. So worry, you know, a lot of worry, a lot of anxiety. Let me back up a little bit. I did not say 2, 3 and 4. That is the overarching theme. There is shame, shape. So you know, am I lovable? Am I broken? Can you find the good in me? You know? And when we move into the head center, the overarching theme is anxiety and fear. So once we get to point six, we really see how that shows up. Because imagine if you were able to figure out what could go wrong every single day. Imagine if that was your superpower. And four sixes, it is all about being prepared for the inevitability that stuff happens and it goes wrong. But to be prepared for it is to have the structure, the understanding to look at what happened before and to make sure that it's preventable in the future. And sixes can plan for the inevitable, whatever, in ways that many of us will never be able to understand or embody. Get a six friend, folks. That's all I'm saying.
- [45:23]
Susie Pettit
Just take care of every contingency, everything.
- [45:27]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
I always tell this story about being on a cruise ship with a dear friend who happens to be a 6. She lives in Spain, speaks Spanish, I speak English. Between the two of us, we manage fared pretty well. But we took a South American cruise and I forgot about the part where you go around the straits of Magellan and it gets cold. She shows up at my door, knocks, and she's got a jacket, a hat and mittens.
- [45:56]
Susie Pettit
She's thought of it. The sex. Has thought of it. Yes.
- [46:00]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
You know, I'm never traveling again without her. Let's just. Just say it's pretty amazing. But then again, that worst case scenario thinking can lead to more anxiety. Anxiety and fear to the point of despair. And that is actually true for all of the head center. You know, just dealing with the anxiety and the fear. The way the fives can see the future when they look at what's connected, the way that sixes can see what might go wrong and trying to be prepared for it, that could consume your entire life. And so particularly at point six, I always say zero point six is the last human being standing because will it figure it out how to survive, you know, and the people who listen to them will survive along with them. We go from six to seven, where I used to say that every single one of the Enneagram types has to have a condition to be happy. And seven is known as the happy type. And I would say sevens, all they have to be is happy ones. We've got to do the right thing. Twos have to have love. Threes have to be successful. Fours have to be unique. Fives have to have knowledge. Six have to be have structures and plans to be safe. Sevens have to be free. A while to figure that out. It's not just the joy and the lust and love for life. It is also about the freedom. Freedom, the freedom of choice. The freedom to exercise any option that I choose because that one's going to make me happier than this one. With that comes the cost of not recognizing that the true joy, because joy is deeper than happiness, is always in the present moment. And if you present for it, you're going to miss it. So sevens like to have variety. They like to have options. They don't want to be around you if you're full of doom and gloom and all of your sad stuff, and if you're still ruminating about the election and that's all you want to talk about and on and on and on. Sevens look for joyful places and look for happiness and love in all kinds of spaces. Because what variety in life when seven say, I just can't do hospitals, I don't go to funerals, I won't come to visit you when you're sick, but I'll send you something. It's this fear of being trapped in circumstances. So if I go near it, I might get trapped in it. So I'm up and out of there. But talk about brilliant people who have more ideas before breakfast than any of us will have in a lifetime. But I always say notice. I didn't say more good ideas, just ideas.
- [49:12]
Susie Pettit
I feel like sevens need a little constraint. But they.
- [49:18]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
And on the positive side of that, we have noticed that sevens tend to be first responders in disasters. They'll show up because there's an adrenaline surge. There's a desire to be of service and to help and also, you know, do it, move it along and you're helping to create circumstances that are better for someone else. So that's kind of the contradictory thing that happens with seven spirits. But a beautiful joyful space to inhabit, particularly when grounded and sent in the joy of the present moment that sevens can find and can actually maintain with a little work. So that down to all of the dikes.
- [50:10]
Susie Pettit
That's beautiful. I just. You went through very quickly there. But like that the design, like sevens need to have freedom. And six. But we missed eight. And nine is eight.
- [50:21]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
We started with eight. Nine.
- [50:22]
Susie Pettit
No, you told me all of them. But just when you were talking, when you were talking about seven, you went through that. One needs to be right. Two needs to be loved. Three. So does nine need peace or calm? And eight need safety or eight needs.
- [50:37]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Eight needs control.
- [50:39]
Susie Pettit
Control, control.
- [50:41]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
I need to be able to control my own.
- [50:44]
Susie Pettit
Okay. Like security. Yeah.
- [50:46]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Things. And not does need peace to be happy. It's not just peace for myself. I also need peace around me because if any of you are not peaceful, then you're going to disturb my peace. So I need for you to calm down and chill out and be okay. Funny, a friend of mine, she was leaving her husband to babysit the kids and the kids were always fighting about the bandwidth and who was using too much of it. And so while mom wasn't home, dad just a nine disconnected. The Internet said, you know, just know what's going on.
- [51:37]
Susie Pettit
It's very familiar to me being married to a nine.
- [51:42]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Both of us.
- [51:43]
Susie Pettit
I know. I do that. Yeah. I'm like, it's so funny.
- [51:46]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Yeah.
- [51:46]
Susie Pettit
Well, I am so grateful for your time and I could talk to you for hours because what I want listeners to get to is that, you know, Dr. E just touched on really like the. The tip of the iceberg with all of these Enneagram types. And there is so much more here in your work. And you, you've done so much. I see you reaching for your books, which is. Yes, please.
- [52:12]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Easy.
- [52:14]
Susie Pettit
Yes.
- [52:15]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
I wrote that for exactly this reason. For people to be able to find the Enneagram, but for it not to be so erudite that it know you can't connect with it. So in. In Enneagram made easy. I do a lot of translating of the terminology so that it's understandable and accessible. And, you know, I want the whole world to be able.
- [52:41]
Susie Pettit
So I do. I want to give a plug for that book. I haven't been able to get it yet in Australia, but I've been able to like, you know how Amazon you can like, see in it. So I see how magical it is. Also, you have journals for each type, which is amazing for our listeners, which I will put in the show notes. She has given us enneagram cards which I, I got my copy and I'm so excited. And it is a like a overview of each of those nine types. And I just really encourage you to become a stalker of Dr. E. Get. She has a podcast, she has a great website. You, you've just put out so much to help us in this self discovery and becoming our best selves and loving ourselves that I'm, I'm so grateful. So thank. I will put all links in the show notes and I just want you guys to just really dive into her work and go tell her how much, you know, you're learning from her and how much she's helping you, because she will.
- [53:38]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
I'm very willing. I think we're at a moment in time where the world needs a whole, a whole lot more love. And we need to lead from a place of love, not a place of fear. And particularly women. You know, we need to raise each other up. So I'm on a mission for, to create a sisterhood that, you know, circles the globe. And I do have, you know, particularly people from all over the world that I'm working with because we have to learn how to love and embrace each other. Yes, please get better. The world will get better.
- [54:17]
Susie Pettit
That is a perfect place. And I just heard this quote yesterday. When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace. So taking Dr. E's work tells us how to dive into that love. So let's go. Thank you so much for coming on.
- [54:34]
Dr. Deborah Egerton
Thank you, Susie.