Lovett or Leave It Presents: Bravo, America! (with Parvati Shallow)

Summary

Lovett or Leave It Presents: Bravo, America!

Guest: Parvati Shallow

Date: October 21, 2025
Host: Jon Lovett

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Episode Overview

In this dynamic episode, Jon Lovett sits down with Parvati Shallow—reality TV legend, Survivor champion, and author—to explore the intersection of reality television strategy and American political theater. Lovett and Parvati dive into what makes reality TV such an apt lens for evaluating political behavior, the psychological and personal cost of fierce gameplay, the evolution of Survivor and reality competition culture, and how fame, gender, and authenticity play out both on-screen and off.

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Key Topics & Highlights

1. The Political-Reality TV Paradox (00:22)

• Lovett’s Claim: “I genuinely believe you cannot understand politics in this moment if you don't understand the dynamics of reality television.”
• Explores how politicians mirror the attention-seeking, manipulative strategies common to reality stars, referencing Congresswoman Sarah McBride’s description of House dynamics.
• Parvati's journey from a hippie commune childhood to reality TV stardom serves as a window into how “game” strategies reflect broader cultural phenomena.

2. Survivor Origins & Playing Style (04:41)

• Parvati recounts how she landed on Survivor by accident, originally having auditioned for Amazing Race, with no prior familiarity with the show.
• Parvati: “I had no idea what I was getting myself into, but I really wanted the adventure...I realized that it's a social game. So I had been playing Survivor socially since I was born.”
• Describes early mastery of strategic social gameplay, likening high school “superlatives” politics to Survivor alliances.

3. Emotional Costs and Therapy (02:16)

• Parvati humorously but candidly discusses post-reality TV PTSD and the therapy it necessitated, joking about being triggered by the studio’s round table (echoing The Traitors set).

4. Defining Strategy, Manipulation & Lying (13:24)

• Differentiates between “emotional manipulation” (her strong suit) and outright lying (which she struggles with, feeling physical anxiety when making up stories).
• Parvati: “I am very good at emotional manipulation. I am very bad at lying. It's a gray area.”
• Explains “body lies”—deception performed through actions, not words—essential for competition like The Traitors.

5. Gender Dynamics & Survivor Evolution (41:22)

• Parvati on early Survivor: “I was slut-shamed really bad after I played Survivor…just used my sexuality and flirtatious sort of feminine power, which, I'm sorry, but it's truly the only thing we have as women over men. Like, that's all we've got...”
• Explores the backlash faced by women who played assertively or used “feminine power,” the change in casting and social awareness around gender equity, and the show’s shift from strictly equal provision to equitable treatment based on outcome needs (e.g., clothing for women to prevent UTIs).
• Personal aftermath: Survivor’s impact on Parvati’s self-image, dating life, and relationships.

6. Survivor’s Strategy and Iconic Moments (17:47; 18:33)

• Shared the backstory of the “Black Widow Brigade” during Fans vs. Favorites, describing the iconic tribal council where Erik gave up his immunity necklace.
• Parvati: “I'm looking at Eric in tribal council taking the necklace off his body, and...inside I'm like, oh my God, how is this actually happening?”

7. Navigating Fame, Social Media, and Authenticity (57:13)

• Discusses modern Survivor’s interaction with social media, how perceptions and fan feedback have changed, and her journey toward not caring about public opinion.
• “When I go out and play, I'm just gonna play to win, and social media will be what it is afterwards.”

8. The Politics-Survivor Analogy (59:20)

• What politicians can learn from Survivor:
  • Authenticity matters; “pick something that you actually care about.”
  • Be willing to “shake up the game.”
• Applies Survivor archetypes to politicians: Trump (nonstarter), Pelosi (authoritarian lady/domme energy), AOC (charming threat).
• Parvati: “You gotta shake up the game sometimes. Do it differently. Don't do it the same way that every other stuffy politician has always done it.”

9. Iconic Real-World “Blindside” Moments (63:11–66:04)

• Jon and Parvati review legendary political blindsides:
  • John McCain’s “thumbs down” on Obamacare repeal
    • [64:04] “Boom—thumbs down.” (Lovett)
    • “Audible gasp on the Senate floor. That was a real blindside.” (Parvati, 64:19)
  • Ted Cruz declining to endorse Trump at 2016 GOP convention
    • “I love a good backstab. God. Especially when there's a huge live audience.” (Parvati, 65:45)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Survivor as a metaphor for politics:
  “Some of my colleagues are treating me the way they are...to employ the strategies of a Bravo TV show to get attention...pick a fight with someone and throw wine in their face.” (Lovett, 00:22)

• On authentic gameplay:
  “The way to galvanize people is to, like, really just speak from the heart and don't be afraid to make connections with people.” (Parvati, 59:48)

• When asked about Survivor's enduring appeal:
  “Survivor gives people a feeling...they have memories of watching it with their parents when they were little, and now they're adults and the world is hard, and they get to reconnect with that little kid comfort...” (Parvati, 53:39)

• On gender, power, and public backlash:
  “Any woman who was confident in her sexuality, who was flirty, who was unapologetic...was pushed down. Slut Shamed, like, taking the power away because it was scary for people.” (Parvati, 42:17)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:22: Political behaviors as reality TV games; introduction of Parvati
• 02:16: Survivor PTSD and therapy
• 04:41: Parvati’s casting and first impressions
• 13:24: Manipulation and lying as distinct skills
• 17:47–18:33: The Black Widow Brigade and Erik’s blindside
• 41:22–43:28: Survivor’s evolution with gender and equity
• 53:39–54:30: Survivor’s place in culture and nostalgia
• 59:20: Advice for politicians from Reality TV strategy
• 63:11–66:04: Breakdown of famous political blindsides

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Tone & Style

The episode is brisk, conversational, and witty, marked by Parvati’s charismatic blend of deep sincerity and playful self-deprecation, and Lovett's trademark dry political humor. Both hosts pull no punches as they dissect not only game moves but cultural meaning, personal stakes, and the sometimes uncomfortable intersection between entertainment and real life.

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Summary for New Listeners

This episode is a high-energy masterclass in the overlap of reality TV and modern American politics, delivered by two masters of manipulation—one mobbed up in Congress, the other at tribal council. Parvati Shallow brings raw honesty, industry wisdom, and hard-won vulnerability, tracing how the rules of Survivor map onto real-world power struggles. Whether you’re a diehard for the Black Widow Brigade, a fan of political drama, or just want to hear sharp-as-nails reflections on fame, shame, and the art of the blindside, you’ll find something meaty and memorable here.

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Further Reading:
Parvati’s new book, Nice Girls Don’t: How I Burned it All Down to Claim My Power, is available now.
Follow Lovett or Leave It for new episodes each Saturday.

Transcript

[Jon Lovett]

Which of these politicians you think would do well on Survivor? Are you ready? Donald Trump.

[Parvati Shallow]

Oh, God, no.

[Jon Lovett]

He's not. He's not one for roughing it.

[Parvati Shallow]

His face would melt off his skin. Is it even real skin? It's like latex. It would just love it or leave it. It's love it or leave it.

[Jon Lovett]

Hey, everybody, it's Jon Lovett. And this is love it or leave it presents Bravo America. I'm sitting down with some of my favorite icons of reality TV because I genuinely believe cannot understand politics in this moment. If you don't understand the dynamics of reality television. Congresswoman Sarah McBride put it perfectly on Pod Save America earlier this year. Some of my colleagues are treating me the way they are treating me for a couple of reasons. One, it's because they want attention, right? They want to employ the strategies of a Bravo TV show to get attention in a body of 435 people. And the way to do that is to pick a fight with someone and throw wine in their face. So today I'm talking to Survivor's black widow, Parvati Shallow. She just went on a pretty interesting run on this season of Australia versus the World, after which she announced her official retirement from Survivor. She's been on the Traitors. She also won Survivor Micronesia back in 2008. She is the most experienced Survivor player with a record 165 days spent on the island in her career. It was an awesome conversation with Parvati. She is somebody that started her life on a hippie commune, rising to become famous for being one of the most charming and conniving people to ever play Survivor or any game on reality television. And she has a lot of really interesting insights about what reality TV taught her about herself, about television and fame and about our country. We talked about how Survivor evolved to become more inclusive and equitable. We talked about how being such a fierce player on reality show has affected her relationships with off the show. We also talk about some of the greatest political backstabs in history. So I'm very excited for you to hear her analysis. Her book nice Girls Don't How I burned it all down to claim my power is out. Right now, here she is, poverty, Shallow, the black widow.

[Parvati Shallow]

I have PTSD from my game show experiences and I've done quite a bit of therapy to recover from them across the board. And I will say, yeah, this is my first time, I think, sitting at a round table since Traders. I don't have a round day. I have square tables.

[Jon Lovett]

I'm sorry that we. We didn't know, we didn't think about that. We didn't know that was gonna happen.

[Parvati Shallow]

But wait, so I might need to lay down on the couch.

[Jon Lovett]

So why, like, you're one of the greats. You know that you're one of the greats. You take that. You can. You take that.

[Parvati Shallow]

As I do, I receive it. I think it comes from longevity and from putting myself out there and then proving to myself over and over again that I last to the end most of the time when I play these games. So, yes, I have done some digging into what makes me so good at these games to write my book. I really dove into it and I was like, oh, I see. The hallmarks of a good reality show player, Survivor strategist traders player. Like, you have to be able to just dive into the unknown and not need to control every element of it. You have to be able to be told what to do, but then also find your way around all the rules to make it work for you. So there's some things that I was born into in my life that really prepared me mentally to do well in these games.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, I feel like that's also what I brought to my three days in Survivor and that because I was able to really, like, I did not get eliminated for any of the first two days that I was there. Congrats, and I'm really proud of that. And so it was just like two great reality show players sitting at a table talking. What a treat for the audience.

[Parvati Shallow]

That's a true delight.

[Jon Lovett]

So, by the way, before you came in, we were, like, testing the audio and we had the clip of my being voted out that we were gonna show you later. And just to test, they just. Speaking of ptsd, I was just sitting in this room as they played me getting voted out over and over and over again. Like, I'm nothing. Like, I'm an object.

[Parvati Shallow]

I'm so sorry for your loss.

[Jon Lovett]

So. It's okay.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

It's okay.

[Parvati Shallow]

They're all laughing.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, they all found it pretty fucking funny. So you were originally supposed to be on the Amazing Race all the way back when, right?

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

And so you weren't even trying to get on Survivor?

[Parvati Shallow]

No.

[Jon Lovett]

And then you get cast on Survivor, Right? What did you think about it before you went on it? What was your awareness of it? Like, how confident in your own kind of ability to strategize were you?

[Parvati Shallow]

I wrote this casting story in my book, and it's one of my. It's one of the most fun stories in there because I had no idea what I was getting myself into, but I really wanted the adventure. And when I got cast on Survivor, I was like, oh, what's the show where they eat bugs? And the casting director was like, yep, you got it. And I was like, yeah, sure, I'll do it. Sounds great. So I threw myself into this adventure, not knowing what to expect, and it was a, like, culture shock, steep learning curve. I mean, I went camping and stuff when I was young, but I never, like, slept in the dirt with bugs crawling on me and starved. So that was new. Fresh take, but I realized that it's a social game. So I had been playing Survivor socially since I was born, and then in high school, especially, because I really went for it with a senior superlative. I wanted to win friendliest. You guys know what I'm talking about?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

I was so hardcore about the superlative. So I, like, played Survivor in high school. I gathered my allies. I had a girl group, like, basically the OG Black Widow Brigade. I formed it at Spraberry High School with my three best friends, and they helped me win all the things I wanted to win.

[Jon Lovett]

Do you think that that might have been a bad sign for me when I graduated with no friends? I did. I did. I was zero. I made it. I shot the moon, high school wise. But. But the. I was.

[Parvati Shallow]

But look at you now.

[Jon Lovett]

Sure, I. I was voted or I was runner up both for most likely to outsmart Einstein. That was something.

[Parvati Shallow]

Runner up, runner up. Who beat you?

[Jon Lovett]

I think it was Adam Taubman. Adam. And I get it. I got it.

[Parvati Shallow]

Has he applied for Survivor?

[Jon Lovett]

I don't think so, because he's a little bit smarter than me.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

But the.

[Parvati Shallow]

Where is Adam now?

[Jon Lovett]

And then.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah. Do you think that people who play Survivor are a little bit dumb, a little bit crazy, or, like, what is it that makes us want to do that?

[Jon Lovett]

I can't speak for all of the many others, but I think that, like, having been through makes you more outraged when people quit, because you know what it takes to get there, and it is so much work to get there. And I think you have to. Steve Martin wrote this book, and it has this line which I'm gonna paraphrase and butcher, but it's something like, you need delusions of grandeur to get you between moments of genuine inspiration. And I. I think you have to have the ability to really, really believe something insane for a long time to get you all the way from the US To Micronesia or Fiji or wherever it may be. Like, yes, everybody has little flights of fancy, but you gotta be able to hold onto it for months without reality creeping in before you look around and be like, what am I doing here?

[Parvati Shallow]

I know. You're so right. It is a complete fantasy world. Or I think also you have to have, like, such an insane real life that leaving your real life to go play Survivor feels like the responsible thing to do.

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, that's interesting. Was that how you felt?

[Parvati Shallow]

Yes.

[Jon Lovett]

What was going on? What was going on for you when you decided to do this?

[Parvati Shallow]

Well, I had recently graduated college and I had started working at this PR firm. I got a real job with my degree. I worked. I got a degree in journalism and public relations, and I was working at this PR firm, and I slogged in day after day for three whole months. And I was like, I can't do this anymore. And I quit and started waiting tables and just spun my wheels, didn't know what I was going to do. I started boxing. I was competing in boxing matches, partying in Hollywood with a crew, and was recruited by a casting associate who knew that I was a boxer and was like, that's cool. Like, be on tv. And I was like, how did you know? This is my destiny.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, but, like, it really is your destiny. Do you, like, feel like it was like you're even just sitting here? Like we've met before, but even sitting here, I'm like, oh, my God. The TV charisma that comes off of you just sitting at the table is, like, so intense. And, like, I see how you managed to just sort of ensorcel all these men into your. No, but I see it. It's really in, like, like. And by the way, like, like, men and women over the years who have, like, just sort of, like, followed you into their own demise, which is just so interesting. But I get it because I think I would. I'm captured right now.

[Parvati Shallow]

You are captured. You actually can't leave. I've walked at the door.

[Jon Lovett]

That's right.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah. Don't even try, actually. I mean, I truly am, like, a really having PTSD in this room because the roundtable is reminding me of traders. And behind you you've got these little figurines and stacks of books. It looks like the trader's set in here.

[Jon Lovett]

What was it?

[Parvati Shallow]

So the monkeys up there.

[Jon Lovett]

Sure, yeah. That was a big feature. That lamp's one of the most expensive things in this room. We never see it. That couch, too.

[Parvati Shallow]

That couch and those monkeys from where? Is that a vintage find from Doshtree for sure.

[Jon Lovett]

Or maybe, like, World Market? So you're on Survivor. So first of all you're on this season, which turns out to be a great. An amazing season with a lot of amazing moments and players cook islands, the race wars. Well, that's the thing. It was also a season where they tried something insane and you don't know because you didn't know you were on race war until what you get to the beach? Is that when you found out? When did you know?

[Parvati Shallow]

I was completely flabbergasted. I was like, this is illegal. You can't do this. Actually, this is illegal.

[Jon Lovett]

So for people listening, basically that season which has amazing players on it, but begins with four tribes and they are divided by race. And you're just like, no.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

What?

[Parvati Shallow]

I was like, is this kosher? And they were like, yeah, you can say that. I'm like, what is going on? So the journalist that came down in the earlier seasons of Survivor, I don't know if you had this when you played, but we would have pre game press.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, we did that.

[Parvati Shallow]

Okay. So the journalists were there and they were interviewing us and they were like, any guesses on what the theme is? And I was like, no, I've never even seen the show. I have no idea what I'm doing here. And the only person who figured it out was, can you guess?

[Jon Lovett]

Was it Yule? Yeah, well, of course it was. God, so smart. Truly so smart. So smart.

[Parvati Shallow]

He's so smart. But I will tell a funny story about Yule. Okay, so on season 40, Yule fully blindsides me, gets me out of the game. Then he comes to edge of extinction next and we're sitting and chatting and he's like, so I'm going to make a spreadsheet about games to play with children. So I have kids and I just need some ideas, like what are some fun ideas? And like, wait, you're making a spreadsheet of things to do with your kids? Like he's crowdsourcing playdate ideas and activities to do with his kids. Cause he's too smart just to fill.

[Jon Lovett]

The time while waiting at edge of extinction.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah, he's like building a spreadsheet in his brain. And then he's like, also, I would also like to add in lunch items. What do we pack kids for lunches? And he's crowdsourcing ideas and building full on Excel spreadsheets of things to do with his kids and what to pack.

[Jon Lovett]

And what Just like in his mind.

[Parvati Shallow]

While we're sitting there, he's so smart.

[Jon Lovett]

Is he one of the smartest? Is he the smartest person you played with?

[Parvati Shallow]

What do you Think definitely. Hands down, there's no one smarter than Yule.

[Jon Lovett]

There was something amazing about how he played, which was different than I think any other winner, which is he was so transparent and direct. Like, not since. I mean, like, there was that moment in the very first season where Richard Hatch basically explains the game theory, which is I need to let go because you'll do what's in your interest and I don't want to vote for Rudy, so I'm going to step back and I think it's going to work. And it did. But, like, he was so methodical and direct with people and I don't think there's been someone who was able to do that in the same way.

[Parvati Shallow]

It's really hard to be that forthright. Yul did have the idol that he could play after the votes were read this, like, super special, ultra powerful idol. So I think that gave him a even more of a sense of authority and power. But, yeah, I think you're right. I. I can't think of anyone who has been that up front.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Did you know going in how good of a liar you were?

[Parvati Shallow]

So here's the deal. I am very good at emotional manipulation.

[Jon Lovett]

Nice.

[Parvati Shallow]

I am very bad at lying. It's a gray area. And hear me out. Lying to me means, like, making up a lie. So I also tell this story in my book when I'm with Natalie and Alexis and I've tribe swapped away from Amanda and Cerie and I'm like, oh, my God, I need them on my side. So I make up a lie and I say, Eliza wants to vote out Alexis. Me saying that was like, I had, like a pit in my stomach. It's like, you know that feeling where you're like, I'm gonna get caught. I know someone's gonna out me. I'm like, I get super paranoid. So that's why it was really hard for me being a traitor on Traders because I was like, lying and having to say, like, no, I'm not a traitor, and here's this person's a traitor and that's why, blah, blah, blah. But on Survivor, you can just say, yeah, I'll vote with you. Like, that's kind of an easy one versus making up a lie that you're like, I'm gonna get caught. If someone plays this back and they. If Alexis talks to Eliza and then they come together, they're gonna out me and then how do I get out of that? That freaks me out.

[Jon Lovett]

It's interesting to think about this. So is the difference. I'm Just trying to understand your distinction. Because there, just to be clear, I think you're lying in both. But the. But in one. No, but. No, but I think. Here's what I.

[Parvati Shallow]

It is lying. You're right. It is lying in both. It's just sort of like a shade of lying.

[Jon Lovett]

Well, I feel like in one, the lie can be proven objectively because it's just simply a false story about the world. In the other, you're kind of more lying about how you feel and you're the only one that knows if it's true or not, I guess. Unless you've also told someone else you're gonna vote that way.

[Parvati Shallow]

Which is why I love a blindside. I love a secret vote. I love a blindside because then the person is gone out of the game and you don't have to deal with them tomorrow.

[Jon Lovett]

Is that why. So you feel like your skills were better suited to Survivor than to traitors? Is that what you're saying?

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But with traitors, when I had the secret mission with the chalice, I can pull that off. That's a body lie.

[Jon Lovett]

What's a body lie?

[Parvati Shallow]

A body lie is like you just hold it in your body. You're like, I'm pretending to be your friend right now, but I'm actually going to kill you.

[Jon Lovett]

Wow, that's a body lie. So many different kinds of lying that you claim to not be very good at. A little bit alarming. All right, we're going to take a quick break and we will be right back. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love it or Leave it coming up. Love it or leave it is brought to you by Helix. I love Helix mattress. I have a Helix mattress. I have a Dawn luxe. It's definitely improved my sleep. I like, I have really great linen sheets on it and I get a great night's sleep every night. And if I don't, it's because of the news, not the mattress. Helix knows there's no better way to test out a new mattress than by sleeping on it in your own home. That's why they offer a 100 night trial and a 10 to 15 year warranty to try out your new Helix mattress. Everybody is unique and everyone sleeps differently. That's why Helix has several different mattress models to choose from, each designed for specific sleep positions and feel preferences. So how do you know which Helix mattress works best for you and your body? Take the quiz from Helix Sleep and find the perfect mattress in under two minutes. I took that Helix Sleep Quiz. And I was matched with the dawnluxe because I wanted something firm but plush. Sleeping on my side, sleeping on my back, sleeping on my stomach. All. All. All the positions sounded worse than I meant to all of them. Your personalized mattress is shipped straight to your door free of charge. Go to helixleep.com love it. For 20% off site wide, that's helixsleep.com love it. For 20 percent off site wide, make sure you enter our show name after checkout so they know we sent you. Helixleep.com love it.

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[Jon Lovett]

So in your first season, you make it far, and you've even said this, that kind of. You played off the assumption that you were gonna be, like, ditzy and you're like a flirt, right?

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

But it was fans versus favorite. I don't know if you tell me, but to me, in my mind, I think, oh, you did great in your first season. But fans versus favorites, that's when you became a force.

[Parvati Shallow]

That was when the Black widow was born.

[Jon Lovett]

Yes. And so for people who may not have seen it, one of the most amazing runs in any reality show, any competition show ever. You're just murdering people week after week. And it's one of the greatest moves, but it required also one of the dumbest moves in the history of the game, which is somebody giving up their immunity idol because they didn't want anyone to not like them, I guess.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Very sweet. So when you're in that moment, are you thinking, I can't believe this is working. Are you thinking, oh, my God, this is amazing television. Are you thinking? What are you thinking?

[Parvati Shallow]

I can't believe this is working. That was, like, blowing my mind. I was running on a loop over and over again because I'm looking at Eric in tribal council taking the necklace off of his body, and I'm looking at the jury, and Eliza's mouth has hit the floor. It's hanging open, unhinged. James has his head in his hands. Eric's still taking the necklace off, handing it over to Natalie, and I'm, like, hiding behind him, trying to look like. Yep, of course. This is exactly what we planned. And yes. And inside I'm like, oh, my God. How is this actually happening?

[Jon Lovett]

What's Jeff's face doing.

[Parvati Shallow]

Jeff is trying.

[Jon Lovett]

He knows. He knows what's unfolding before him. He's got the information.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah, he's mind boggled. But he's also part of the special world. Like, he doesn't want to blow it for us in that moment. So he's also keeping his face as neutral as possible. But I see it like, I can read Jeff, and I'm like, oh, he's really loving this.

[Jon Lovett]

Can you read Jeff?

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah, I can.

[Jon Lovett]

What are you reading when you're reading Jeff?

[Parvati Shallow]

Well, no, Jeff's like, he is an excellent host because he reads people so well. And when he sits at a tribal council, he's. I feel like Jeff and I have similar sort of social brains. Like, we really understand body language. And, like, a little if you push on this lever over here, then this one over here will crack and this will crumble. And I'm like, Jeff is sort of like a maestro in that way.

[Jon Lovett]

I know what you mean by saying you're similar. You're also both, like, hyper present. Like, you're, like, more here than most people are here. Like, I can just see that. And, like, Jeff is the same way. Just like, oh, like, I have to be extremely engaged because this is a person who is extremely keyed into what's happening right now.

[Parvati Shallow]

Does that stress you out or is it okay?

[Jon Lovett]

No, it doesn't stress me out. It more. It forces you to do the same in a good way. I think. Like, it does. It actually reminds you about the importance of being present. And so, like, as we've been talking, I have found myself becoming more present.

[Parvati Shallow]

Like, if I was a little bit less present, what would you be doing right now?

[Jon Lovett]

I would still be doing this, but I might be, like, willing to kind of look around a little bit more or to go to my screen a little bit more. But you don't allow that.

[Parvati Shallow]

Okay, sorry.

[Jon Lovett]

No, but it's. No, it's not like, you're not even. Not that you're demanding it. It's that, like, you're very intense.

[Parvati Shallow]

You know that I'm very intense. I'm a Scorpio moon. I can't stop myself. This is just how I am.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, Yeah. I was born like this because of where the planets were, you think?

[Parvati Shallow]

Apparently, yeah. This is what I've been told. And I live in the haunted house.

[Jon Lovett]

What does that mean?

[Parvati Shallow]

So I don't know. I think it has to do with my Scorpio moon. I enjoy a haunted house, and I'm making a whole show about it. I'm making a haunted house reality competition show. How do you feel about ghosts?

[Jon Lovett]

They've never created much of trouble for me.

[Parvati Shallow]

Would you live in a haunted house for a week?

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, yes. Yes, absolutely.

[Parvati Shallow]

Okay. You're on the cast.

[Jon Lovett]

Fuck, yeah. That's great. No, I'm. You know, astrology. I just think when people stopped going to church, they really were casting about for something to believe in.

[Parvati Shallow]

No, no, no. Astrology has been around before church. Do a deep dive into history. Astrology was here from the dawn of time, from the dawn of humanity, even before humans existed.

[Jon Lovett]

Before there was. Well, I mean, there were certainly stars.

[Parvati Shallow]

Stars and planets.

[Jon Lovett]

And planets, but no one to look at them. Oh, aliens. Do you think they have star signs? Aliens?

[Parvati Shallow]

I think they are the star signs.

[Jon Lovett]

I mean, what's going on?

[Parvati Shallow]

Do you want to go there? I'll take you there.

[Jon Lovett]

Take me there.

[Parvati Shallow]

Okay. Well, look, we're what, 70% water?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

And the moon.

[Jon Lovett]

Unless I have, like, deli or something, then it feels like it goes up.

[Parvati Shallow]

The moon controls the tides of the ocean. So if you look at planet Earth as a body, if we're all like microcosms of the macro, planet Earth is like an eyeball of a giant in outer space. Are you guys on mushrooms yet?

[Jon Lovett]

I didn't think about taking mushrooms before this.

[Parvati Shallow]

Think about it.

[Jon Lovett]

I am thinking about it.

[Parvati Shallow]

I probably have some in my bag if you want.

[Jon Lovett]

That tracks.

[Parvati Shallow]

I'm also not on mushrooms right now.

[Jon Lovett]

I don't think you are. I know that you're not.

[Parvati Shallow]

How do you know?

[Jon Lovett]

I just don't think you are. I don't think you are. No.

[Parvati Shallow]

This is just truly how I am. But I also really think this way, and I think it helps me on Survivor because I can zoom in and be super present and do the game and strategize with you, but also be thinking like we are inside of the eyeball of a giant. Like we are floating in outer space. What is happening? How are we even glued to this planet? How are we not falling off?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, that doesn't make sense. We should just spin off of it. I agree. So do you think that maybe growing up in a commune had something to do with this?

[Parvati Shallow]

Yes. I was born into magical thinking.

[Jon Lovett]

That's cool.

[Parvati Shallow]

Born into it. And I make these parallels in the book. It's really wild. I feel like I was destined to play Survivor, not Amazing Race. I have no direction. I lived in New York for, like, four years and never figured out which way to walk. Outside of the subway, I would always go the wrong way for like, a full 10 minutes.

[Jon Lovett]

I get that.

[Parvati Shallow]

Ugh. So I'm glad I didn't do Amazing Race, but I basically was born into Survivor. The commune that I lived in was a, like, wooded, swampy kind of place in Florida run by a female guru, very charismatic. We would have these fire ceremonies at night where people would gather around these fire ceremonies. She would lead them and people would throw their karma into the fire. They would throw, like, their, like, it would be like confession. It's what people do at Tribal Council. They come in and they're like, I'm going to confess my bad deeds and Jeff is going to absolve me from my guilt and whatever and, like. And then you're going to actually just vote someone out and crush their dreams. I was doing all of this. I was a part of. I was born into it.

[Jon Lovett]

Wow.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

Is that where you picked up astrology, you think?

[Parvati Shallow]

I mean, I don't really know where I picked up astrology, but I love it. I'm so. I geek out about it. It's so fun for me to think. I love thinking about being a scorpio moon. Also, Amylou Wood is a scorpio moon, and I love her and I love having that in common with her.

[Jon Lovett]

That's exciting.

[Parvati Shallow]

So I'll talk about it till the day I die.

[Jon Lovett]

So how many seasons of Survivor have you done?

[Parvati Shallow]

Five.

[Jon Lovett]

Five? That's four in the US and now you're doing this. Australia versus the world.

[Parvati Shallow]

Oh, yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

And how many people were there?

[Parvati Shallow]

We had seven on seven. 14 people.

[Jon Lovett]

And how many did you know? How many?

[Parvati Shallow]

Do you like that fast map?

[Jon Lovett]

It was pretty good. Yeah. Thank you. How many did you know? Did you know your side?

[Parvati Shallow]

I knew I knew David from the Australian side. Cause we'd played Deal or no Deal island together just weeks before I went out there. And then on my side, it was me, Tony and Ceri.

[Jon Lovett]

Wow. Wow.

[Parvati Shallow]

I know.

[Jon Lovett]

What's your. So, like, after the Black Widow brigade has its moment, did you stay close after or is it kind of thing like you did a bank heist together and now we kind of go our separate ways?

[Parvati Shallow]

We did go our separate ways, and I think it had a lot to do with. Well, siree lived on the east coast and I lived in la and Amanda and I, we just didn't really stay connected after the game because she was dating Ozzy and Ozzy was mad at me.

[Jon Lovett]

Was he?

[Parvati Shallow]

For blindsiding him?

[Jon Lovett]

And he got him.

[Parvati Shallow]

And Amanda didn't fess up and say she was part of it.

[Jon Lovett]

You know, I Felt this a little bit after, which is like, I got what you. I was, you know, first of all, whatever, but, like, so it's not like we were close, but I, like, I just. I went in believing this. I feel this leaving, which is. It's like all's fair in the game, right? Like, yeah, but that emotions are emotions. Like, have tensions followed you with people after the game like that?

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah, especially back then. We were all really young and it was kind of still new. Survivor was sort of a baby, still season 16. It's now 50 seasons of the show, which is wild. But, yeah, back then, like, this was a really big deal in a different era in pop culture, paparazzi would chase us around. Like, people cared about what we were up to and we didn't have anything else going on. Like, we were in her early 20s and so this was the biggest deal for all of us that had ever happened. And people wanted to be famous, wanted to be actors, wanted to be celebs. And I'd crushed Ozzy's dreams and he was mad at me. And James and I stayed very close. After the game, he moved to LA and we were like besties. He helped me move. Like, he was just the sweetest, best guy. He did a few guest appearances. He was on, like, All My Children or General Hospital. He loved soap operas.

[Jon Lovett]

So fun.

[Parvati Shallow]

Isn't he funny?

[Jon Lovett]

So great.

[Parvati Shallow]

He's like this big giant man.

[Jon Lovett]

Good guy to help you move.

[Parvati Shallow]

Oh, yeah, he was great. He'd just lift a couch with his one hand.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

Like, put it over there, James.

[Jon Lovett]

But would you say Suri is like the best player to never win 1000%? Right. Like, it has to be like, I don't. I mean, there's a lot of great players who haven't won. But, like, she was.

[Parvati Shallow]

I don't know what the deal is with Suri. She's so good. But she won Traitors.

[Jon Lovett]

She won Traitors so she could run.

[Parvati Shallow]

She could have won Big Brother. She was close there. She's come so close on Survivor.

[Jon Lovett]

I know. Well, she got the most. The elimination without any votes was one of the most, like, outrageous. Just the too many rules intersecting at one moment to Foxery. That sucks.

[Parvati Shallow]

I don't know. What do you think about that? Like, shot in the dark and the other kind of things I was gonna.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, as a player, it's hard. It just makes everything harder.

[Parvati Shallow]

But.

[Jon Lovett]

But in terms of as a show, they say if you're writing a script, people will buy a bad coincidence, but not a good coincidence. So if A character is in debt and then gets in a car accident, you buy it. If a character is in debt and then wins the lottery, you don't buy it. You're like, oh, well, that doesn't matter. It's not satisfying. And the problem with luck in Survivor is it's a zero sum game. So any person's lucky loss is another person's lucky gain, and so it inevitably cancels out. And so I always love just. I want to see people fighting each other and having the rules fall back a little bit. But I also get that, like, you know, people now criticize the new era, but they also forget that some of those early seasons, those early episodes could be pretty boring because there weren't twists and alliances had formed and you could try to find drama in it. But, like, you went through multiple episodes where it was just. You knew what was going to happen, like, pretty early on. Right.

[Parvati Shallow]

Cook Islands was really straightforward.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

Micronesia was less so because they did have a tribe swap and people were, like, gunning for me from the beginning. So I did have my back against the wall early. And for me, when that happens, like, I come out kicking and screaming like, you are not going to get rid of me easily. And I think that makes good TV when someone's got their back against the wall and they're someone who will do whatever it takes to get themselves out of that situation. Like, that's what I want to watch. I loved watching Rob at the roundtable on Traders fight his way back.

[Jon Lovett]

It was awesome. It was awesome.

[Parvati Shallow]

Oh, that was awesome. That was so good.

[Jon Lovett]

What do you think about the new era?

[Parvati Shallow]

I've kind of fallen off on watching. I'll watch if I have a friend who's, like, really into it or, I don't know, someone else is excited about it, I'll watch. But it's like, there's a lot of people.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, right?

[Parvati Shallow]

Well, yeah, it's like 50 seasons of the show and I'm kind of. I'm at a place where I'm moving forward with other projects that are not Survivor related. So it's just a big time commitment.

[Jon Lovett]

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[Jon Lovett]

I realized when I was out there that like cause I am very, I can be very intense. I was very focused. But what happened in my vote out was basically somebody had just kind of like they kind of collapsed and kind of Begged and had like, a real, like, kind of crazy moment on the mat where they basically, like, immolated a little bit. And whether it was, like, fully strategy or not, what I realized is, oh, like, I'll fight really hard. And, like, I did. And, like, we. I tried so many different things to get out of it, but I just didn't have a lot of leverage. It was the first vote. It was, like, hard to. It's hard to move. But I realized that something I couldn't do is, like, oh, I'm not gonna. Like, there's a camera here. Like, it's. I'm not gonna beg. Right. Like, I don't want it. So I want to fight hard and win, but not in a way that was like, I wasn't willing to humiliate yourself. Right. I wasn't. Or be pathetic. And, like, in your seasons, in the early seasons, there really just wasn't. That really didn't happen as much. And now there have been seasons where people just kind of go a little bit pathetic, and then they're not threats anymore, and so they hang on for a while.

[Parvati Shallow]

I think you really have nailed something. Yeah. The casting is very different now than it used to be. I mean, look, they used to recruit like, I was recruited. I'd never seen the show. Now the way that people are getting cast in the game is they've wanted this for 20 years. They've tried out over and over and over again. This is their shot. They've now been filmed at home. Their family knows they're going. I think they talk to their family and they're like, whatever it takes. Do whatever it takes. And I don't know if they're being encouraged to have those more emotional moments, but it does seem that we're seeing a lot more of those.

[Jon Lovett]

I don't think they're being encouraged. I think it's. I don't. I think it's just happening. I think it's just happening.

[Parvati Shallow]

Cause that did also. Did not happen on Australian Survivor.

[Jon Lovett]

Really?

[Parvati Shallow]

So. No. So that's, like, not a thing.

[Jon Lovett]

But it's longer, right? Australian Survivor.

[Parvati Shallow]

Well, the one that I played was shorter because it was a special season, so they did it as a big celebration. It's like the Olympics of Survivor.

[Jon Lovett]

How long was it?

[Parvati Shallow]

16 days.

[Jon Lovett]

16.

[Parvati Shallow]

But I'll tell you what, Saree and I were sitting under a log crying because we're getting rained on. And we're like, why are we doing this? Even one day of getting rained on is actual torture.

[Jon Lovett]

Why were you doing it?

[Parvati Shallow]

Why? Because I had unfinished business because it was in Samoa. I lost Heroes versus Villains by a smudge. I felt like I really. I had some unfinished business in Samoa specifically. And I never wanted to play survivor again. The US version after season 40, because I was like, there's pre game alliances. These new people don't want me around. They don't wanna play with me. So I'm not gonna go and play a game that no one wants to play with me. That's like torture. But the Australians might wanna play with me. The international people might want to. So I was like, oh, there's. There's a sliver of hope that maybe I could win this game. And when they called me to do it, I was like, olympics of Survivor. 16 days. I can leave my kid for that amount of time. It's not as big of a lift to go leave for a month and a half, but 16 days, I can do. It ended up being like three weeks all in, but I was like, I gotta go and I gotta, like, reclaim my victory that I lost in Samoa in 2010. It just felt like the culmination of my legacy.

[Jon Lovett]

Wow. It's funny to, like, you are one of the best to ever play Survivor. Let's talk about that moment, actually, because you should have won Heroes versus Villains. Like, you should have won that. Is that something you want to believe? Is that something you do believe? Do you think it's unfair that you didn't win that season?

[Parvati Shallow]

I believe life works in mysterious ways, and I think that's. I ever played at that point in time, like, I played a better game on Heroes Villains than I did on Micronesia, and I won Micronesia. So ergo, I believe I should have won Heroes Villains. But the way that the jury was set up, it was. Amanda was on it and we had lost our closeness. Candace was on it from Cook Islands, and they'd started on the other side. It's like people were not. The jury was not in a place to reward gameplay like they are now.

[Jon Lovett]

Do you think that part of it, though, not to. Not to impugn any one person, but you weren't given the credit even in the moment because you're a woman.

[Parvati Shallow]

I think that has a lot to.

[Jon Lovett]

Do with it because everyone was crediting it to Russell, even though they had seen. They had watched Russell have no idea what was fucking happening multiple times. And yet you were seen as. And described as someone who was sort of following or kind of filling a.

[Parvati Shallow]

Role for Russell as a battered wife, is how Candace described me when she got up and gave her jury speech. She was like, you acted like a battered wife in an abusive relationship, and you didn't get out of it. And I was like, that's bullshit, because you wanted to work with Russell two days ago before you got blindsided by him. So you saying that to me is incredibly hypocritical. But they wouldn't let me speak at the final tribal. Amanda silenced me. Candace didn't want me to talk. They were like, we don't want to hear you speak because we've already made our minds up. So for me, I was like, yes. It was very much an issue of me being a woman. It was very much an issue of the men already feeling, like, sort of protective and wanting to defend Eric Reichenbach from the previous season. When I destroyed him, it's like, we're gonna get revenge on this girl kind of a thing. And then they had also been humiliated. Like, JT Got played by me, by his own letter and his own immunity idol. So he got Eric Reichenbached in Heroes Villains, and JT Was really pulling the strings with Amanda and Candace. So those girls were following along what he wanted at that point. And in Ponderosa, it's just. It's like the law of the jungle out there. Ponderosa, they, like, they just listen to whoever is the most alpha.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, there was just whatever the, like, the. The personality issues. It just. There was a feeling that, like, because Russell was such an aggressive personality, people could not just instinctively see that he was working for you.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yes. Well, I mean, it was so obvious when he gave me his idol, knowing that he was being voted, like, early in the game, he was willing to sacrifice himself for me.

[Jon Lovett]

And it happened in front of the jury. They watch it happen. You can see his face. He has. Cause there's another famous moment in that episode where you play a second idol and it's clear you ran that game well.

[Parvati Shallow]

He gave me two idols.

[Jon Lovett]

Right. Cause he didn't know you had one.

[Parvati Shallow]

He didn't know I had one. Even before that, before the jury, before the merge, it's either me or Russell that's getting voted out. Russell knows he's on the chopping block. He gets up and plays his idol for me. So I'm like, this guy was willing to die.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

Like, he would be out of the game to save me. And people are just like, he's in charge. Cause he's the man. He's the loudest. He's the most aggressive. He was dominating. He was scaring people left and right. And I was like, no, I'm not gonna do what you say. I'm going to fact check what you're telling me about Danielle because she's my ride or die over here. And I'm gonna talk to her. He's like, don't talk to her. And then I go talk to her. And he's lying. And I'm like, okay, you're lying, but I know how to work with people like that. Yeah, it's just like I talk about it in my book, it's cheap sugar. You just throw him a little cheap sugar. You call him your hero, you give him a hug. Oh, my God. I couldn't do it without you.

[Jon Lovett]

I always thought it was an interesting example of equality versus equity when basically everybody, the men and the women all got one pair of underwear, which was equal, but women were getting a bunch of UTIs. And so women started. They said, this sucks. It's not fair. It's equal, but it's not fair. And that real equity was acknowledging that there's a different outcome based on this equal start. And I'm just. It's interesting having watched you been with Survivor as it kind of faced some of the ways. It really was like a microcosm, especially around what it was like for women to play. And I'm wondering, like, what your reflections are on that.

[Parvati Shallow]

It has evolved so much. Like, the way that they produce the show and cast the show is now very different. And, yeah, like, my season, it was hard. I wrote these stories too, because I just, like, needed to tell my own story because of what was going on in my personal life. After I played Survivor, I was slut shamed really bad after I played Survivor, my first game. And then after Micronesia, although I had never hooked up with anyone in the game, other people were making out with people on the show. I wasn't. I just used my sexuality and flirtatious sort of feminine power, which, I'm sorry, but it's truly the only thing we have as women over men. Like, that's all we've got. Sere's like, if. If you can't beat them with these, you can beat them with these. But, like, men have brains, too. I mean, some of them, yeah, occasionally.

[Jon Lovett]

You'll find one now and again.

[Parvati Shallow]

Well, for me, I'm like, I know that I have this power and I'm gonna use it to win this game because winning the game is my number one goal so people can think of me how they want to think of me. And back then in 2006, 2008, 2010, when the three shows came out pretty much back to back. It was full on, like, Slut Shame City, where any woman who was confident in her sexuality, who was flirty, who was unapologetic about, you know, being confident and sexy, was pushed down. Slut Shamed, like, taking the power away because it was scary for people. And I think with what people saw on Micronesia, that that power works to the point of someone making a really dumb move like Eric. And then that move, following him for the rest of his life, it's like, ooh, this is what can happen if we let women have power and let them work together. And it just really scared people. So I dealt with that in my personal life a lot in the dating world. For me, it was a true shit show. It was.

[Jon Lovett]

There was, like, a hangover from the show.

[Parvati Shallow]

Dark Times.

[Jon Lovett]

Why? Like, what does that look like? What is like, people. They know you. What does that mean?

[Parvati Shallow]

I felt like, because I had lied and manipulated and hurt my friends and blindsided Ozzy, and he was so mad at me, and I'd lost my friendship with Amanda. I was like, I'm a bad person. And, like, I guess I'm like, what guy is gonna wanna date a black widow who, like, brings guys in to get close to her and then betrays him and stabs him in the back? So I was, like, setting myself up for a failure. Every time I went on a date, I was like, I'm not going to date good guys because a good guy wouldn't want to date me. So I started, you know, I started making some pretty rough choices in my dating life that I had to really. Once I got divorced, I, like, really took a hard look at this, and I was like, oh, this is me creating this pattern. I want to change this. But I was so scared. I was like. After I got divorced, I was like, oh, God. Like, I don't know how to date. Like, what if I go out in the world and meet someone, I think they're good and they're not, and then I make another relationship like I had, and I was so scared.

[Jon Lovett]

Did you ever Correct.

[Parvati Shallow]

No. What happened was I dated, like, kind of lightly. And I was meeting men who were. They fell into two categories. One was emotionally available, very kind, very, like, fun to talk to, terrible in bed, no chemistry. And then the other one was, like, great in bed, emotionally stunted.

[Jon Lovett]

Sure.

[Parvati Shallow]

So I was like, I'll just never be able to find both.

[Jon Lovett]

So you started doing both in a man. Yeah, but that's where the women come in.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

A classic Story for there ever was one. Yeah. I was single when I was 29 and then I was next single when I was 40. So I was never single in my 30s. That was an adjustment.

[Parvati Shallow]

Big one.

[Jon Lovett]

Woof.

[Parvati Shallow]

Is it better now?

[Jon Lovett]

Oh.

[Parvati Shallow]

Cause you know yourself better now so it's faster.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. I mean it was very confusing. It was like I don't even remember how to do this. Like, you know, I was like pre apps. It was just like I didn't know how to do anything. But it is true that you know yourself better and that was real, like that was like. There was real power in that. Especially when like I was like single. I'm not single anymore, thank God. I never want to be single again. So that gives you a sense of how much I hated it. Oh my God. So this is what I wanted to say about Eric. It is true that like kind of, I guess you were flirting. The four of you were kind of, kind of getting Erryk to come in flirtatiously. But I almost think maybe one of the reasons it was more threatening is it was. It was sort of almost like playing on his desire. Not like sexual, but just like to be a man and to be protective of. Like there's like a. Like that he's a man and so he like the right thing for a man to do is to like sacrifice for women. The weaker sex.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

And like maybe that like because there was a sweetness to what he did. Right. And it wasn't. It didn't seem like. Cause he wanted to date anybody. I don't know if that's how it felt like.

[Parvati Shallow]

No. And I. To be clear, not everyone was using the flirtatious strategy. Like that was my go to with specific people. James mostly. But with Eric, Eric didn't really like me. We didn't really gel. So I was like bad cop in that scenario. We just had specific roles to play to get him to give the neck of it.

[Jon Lovett]

Truly amazing. Amazing.

[Parvati Shallow]

I think you are so right with that instinct and I think you're right with men being like, wait a minute, they played him with this thing where we're trying to be good guys and do the right thing that we've been taught to do since we were kids and we got screwed and made to look stupid. So yeah, I think there's something even deeper at play there.

[Jon Lovett]

We're going to hold it there for a second and we will be right back. Hey, don't go anywhere. There's more of Love it or leave it coming up.

[Podcast Advertiser/Host]

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[Jon Lovett]

So what was it like hanging with the Bravo crowd when you were on Traitors?

[Parvati Shallow]

They are. It's so funny because survivors are very calculated and we automatically assume someone's up to something and the housewives are not. They're just having a good time. It's like Kate Chastain, she just wants to have her cocktail and shoot the shit and enjoy whatever she's doing or complain about it. And they're more color commentary and we're more of like the play by play kind of people. If you're like doing a game analogy because you need the color people who are like flair adding flair. But then the survivors are moving the ball down the field. We're like, oh, this is what's happening with the ball. It's going here and there. And they're like, what ball? Where we don't see it?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Is that like where Sandra's explaining how the numbers might work? Being like, no, if we have an alliance, it's maybe okay that there's a traitor here. Let me explain why.

[Parvati Shallow]

And it's like, they're like, nope, absolutely not. This game is Called Traitors. We gotta get the traitor out. And I'm like, no, don't.

[Jon Lovett]

Do you feel like traitors still? Russell was a little bit a part of this. You were a part of this. But like Survivor, one thing that was amazing is how players made the game more of changed the game and like found depth and nuance and strategy inside of it over time and then the rules change and everything, it evolves together. I feel like traitors still hasn't had that moment where somebody comes in and is like there are things we can do that haven't been done here before, you know, that hasn't been like there hasn't been like a villain like a Russell type to kind of turn traitors on its head.

[Parvati Shallow]

This is my take on traitors is it's so many people. First of all off the bat, like it's 21 something players that you have to get to know every single one of them. Survivor, at least you're split into tribes so you got 10 that you gotta get to know and then the other 10, you're competing against them so you don't have to worry about them yet. But Traders is like, okay, oh my God. You have to get to know every single person as best as you can right away. And then you have to see how are they casually before we go to the roundtable and then we claim who the traitors are. So it just moves at lightning speed and everyone's super paranoid. And then there's also this element of it's a show. It's a show like people are making TV for traitors and the gameplay is sort of kind of secondary because it's really hard to win as a traitor. I think you have to be a full on sociopath. Like you just do. Like you have to be able to like cold blooded lie for three weeks straight and not lose your cool and be cutthroat at the roundtable and redirect the conversation. Like I had a really hard time just living. I was just like, just let me live. I just gotta get a glass of water and like in the bathroom you.

[Jon Lovett]

Sort of developed a look that people talked about. You developed a look on that. It was a kind of like appearing kind of a. Yeah, yeah. Was that, what was that?

[Parvati Shallow]

It was a squint pout.

[Jon Lovett]

Was it just sort of trying to keep it togeth? Like is it like a way to make your face, you're not revealing something.

[Parvati Shallow]

Look, I have no idea where.

[Jon Lovett]

You don't know where it came from?

[Parvati Shallow]

I don't know. I've Been told that I make this look when I'm, like, deeply listening to people. My mom makes the look, but she makes it in a way that looks a little more judgy. It's like, I'm listening, but I'm also judging. And for me, I'm like, I'm listening, but I don't believe you. I don't know what the look was, but it was like, Ekinsu told me. She's like, are you aware that you make this look when you're thinking really good? I didn't know. But then they montaged the look, and I was like, okay, I see it. I get it. I make this. But I also couldn't be myself. Like, I was, like, clammed up and real tight, which is not. It doesn't feel good for me to do that. I'm usually very warm, very open, very friendly. I want to connect with you, and I, like, bring you in to my, you know, enthusiasm bubble. But on Traders, I was like, don't let them get too close, because I didn't know if I would say the right thing or the wrong thing. And then Peter comes at me and he's like, how do I know you're not a trader? And I'm like, how do I know you're not a traitor?

[Jon Lovett]

It's a good response. Answer a question with a question.

[Parvati Shallow]

It's so bad.

[Jon Lovett]

So what, like, do you consider reality TV your career?

[Parvati Shallow]

I mean, I didn't intend to make it my career, but it seems it.

[Jon Lovett]

Has become that there's such a fascination with it, and people have come back to Survivor in the last couple of years, and it seems like that's in part because it is a microcosm at a time when people feel a little bit disconnected from each other. And I'm, like, wondering why you think Survivor has remained so interesting to people. Is it the politics of it? Is it the competition of it? Is it the watching people suffer? Like, what do you think makes people excited about it?

[Parvati Shallow]

I think it's all of that. And I also think it's a nostalgia because people started watching this show in 2000, so now it's been on for 25 years, and they have memories of watching it with their parents when they were little, and now they're adults and the world is hard, and they get to, like, kind of reconnect with that little kid comfort of sitting with their parents on the couch watching the show, or they also still have that thread to their parents. Like, maybe they've grown up and they've moved across the world, and they've lost, really, a lot of connection with their parents, but they can. They can still watch Survivor. They can still talk about their favorite players. So it does connect people generationally, and it also is like a nostalgia. It's a feeling. Survivor gives people a feeling. I know you played three days, so you probably know this feeling for sure. Very.

[Jon Lovett]

Whatever you about to say, I get it.

[Parvati Shallow]

Very embodied feeling. But, like, I have this feeling when I like, it's a smell. Survivor is a smell to me. It's like the feeling of damp clothing. I put on a sweater today that wasn't fully dry, and I was like, feels like. And I had to take it off because I can't actually wear damp clothes because it feels like that to me. But I know viewers also have that. And then now that I'm out in the world promoting my book and doing these drag shows, I'm meeting a lot of people, a lot of fans, and they tell me stories about what Survivor means to them and how it has given them the confidence to be themselves and come out to their parents or their family. And it's like people's gay awakening a lot of the time. And I'm just like, that's so cool. I think that there are so many reasons why Survivor has stood the test of time, but it's like a primal human experience that we get to watch play out.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, there's part of it, too, I think. Like, this comes from, I think the show, but also from Jeff, which is. It's not ironic. It takes itself seriously and it's really earnest. Right. It's not cynical at all. Like, Jeff is so keyed into it, truly believes in it. And there's a lot of places where people think, oh, like, you don't have to try that hard. Or like, like. Or places where it doesn't seem fair. And survivors, of course, can be not fair, but, like, it rewards people who are willing to, like, fucking work hard and fight and try. And, like, maybe I think there's something to that about, like, a completely earnest, unironic direct. We compete. Like, you get votes. You have to win. There's something missing from our culture now. There's part of the nostalgia. There's something missing from our culture that's like, we're a less earnest place.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah, I think so. And I think there's also that gritty, kind of earthy element to it that you're talking about. That's just we are where everything's high tech in a cloud. So now you get to watch people feel Physical symptoms of hunger. When do you ever have to deal with that? Like, very rarely in our privileged society do we have to deal with that. And not having a roof over your head and being exposed to the elements and watching people go through that is sort of a cathartic experience, I think, for the watcher, where we can. We can feel it a little bit in ourselves.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. And watching other people go through it. Right. There's no. Right. There's no screens. Well, there are a couple seasons where all of a sudden there'd be like, a T Mobile. Yeah, T Mobile product placement, for the most part, no screens. All right.

[Parvati Shallow]

I think I had the Sprint Palm Pre.

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, yeah, you did. Wow, that's a lot. Wow. Pre. Yeah, that's a lot. Did social media make going on Survivor different? Better, Worse?

[Parvati Shallow]

Oh, this time for going on Australian Survivor, it doesn't really factor in for me for how I play the game because I don't think about how I'm gonna be perceived afterwards. Like, I've really let go of any kind of caring or control over trying to manage anyone else's perception of me. So whoever's gonna watch me play is gonna have their opinion, and I have. No, that doesn't matter to me. So when I go out and play, I'm just gonna play to win, and social media will be what it is afterwards. Like, when I went and played Traders, I was like, oh, my God, can I do this? Cause I had just finalized my divorce and I hadn't played anything since 40, and I sucked on 40, so I was like, oh, how am I gonna do? And going out and playing, I was like, I did not do well. I didn't think I did well when I played Traders. But then watching the show, I was like, oh, actually did great. Pretty good. And then the. The feedback from the fans was wild love, like, big love. And that was such a new experience for me because I'd only had kind of like, drips of love and sort of like backlash in real time when I've done a show in the past. So that was really fun. I think the tides have turned with social media for me. I get a lot more praise than backlash now. And I think for other people that are new, that are playing, it's very different.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Yeah. It's funny because it's something similar that I think to be good on Survivor or Traitors or to be a good housewife, part of it is the knowing yourself is what Dorinda talked about too. That, like, oh, like, I just do what I do and if you worry about it, you're not being yourself. You're not being authentic. And I do think, like, had I had more time, boy, how much fun I could have had. What lessons do you think a good politician can take from a good Survivor player?

[Parvati Shallow]

A good politician?

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Like, do you ever see politics unfolding and thinking, oh, like, these people could use a season.

[Parvati Shallow]

They could use some training, some coaching? Yeah, they could certainly use some coaching, I think. Yes. Well, first of all, authenticity matters. Being connected to yourself and your message and, like, really actually believing in it is important. So if you want to win your race, like, cool. But pick something that you actually care about.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

And then get out there. And the way to galvanize people is to, like, really just speak from the heart and don't be afraid to make connections with people. And it's okay to shake up the game.

[Jon Lovett]

Gotta shake up the game sometimes.

[Parvati Shallow]

You gotta shake up the game sometimes. Do it differently. Don't do it the same way that every other stuffy politician has always done it. Get out there and do something different. Shake it up. Let's have, you know, some cool stuff in politics. It's been pretty dark out there.

[Jon Lovett]

Which of these politicians do you think would do well on Survivor? Are you ready? Donald Trump.

[Parvati Shallow]

Oh, God. I think he would probably die.

[Jon Lovett]

I think he would throughout the makeup. Yeah. No, he's not one for roughing it. He is.

[Parvati Shallow]

Face would melt off his skin. Is it even real skin? It's like latex. It would just.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. So maybe he wouldn't do so well. What about Nancy Pelosi?

[Parvati Shallow]

Nancy Pelosi? I think she would probably do well. We like a strong, authoritarian lady.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah, that's true.

[Parvati Shallow]

Bring the.

[Jon Lovett]

Bring very tough.

[Parvati Shallow]

The dom energy.

[Jon Lovett]

What about aoc?

[Parvati Shallow]

Oh, well, I'm obsessed with her. She would crush.

[Jon Lovett]

I think she would do well.

[Parvati Shallow]

I think she would do great.

[Jon Lovett]

She's a threat, though. She's a threat. She's very charming.

[Parvati Shallow]

She's a threat. But sometimes threats can continue to be threats and still make it always the end and win.

[Jon Lovett]

I've never seen that. I didn't know that that was possible. That's not my experience. That wasn't my experience. Can we. Can we roll the clip of you getting voted off? Yeah. No. Let's see. I want you to see.

[Parvati Shallow]

Do you have the tissue? First vote.

[Jon Lovett]

John didn't even spell my name right.

[Parvati Shallow]

This is hard to watch.

[Jon Lovett]

Monica, one vot. I didn't realize you were going to watch all of it. That was my vote.

[Parvati Shallow]

John, that was your.

[Jon Lovett]

Disaster.

[Parvati Shallow]

John.

[Jon Lovett]

Three votes John.

[Parvati Shallow]

What are you feeling right now?

[Jon Lovett]

I, I so my regret. First person voted out of survival. You're like, no more, no more, no more. I can't take any.

[Parvati Shallow]

I don't even want to hear.

[Jon Lovett]

Although I look at that wasted that Todd Schneider shirt. Omnia.

[Parvati Shallow]

But you get up. No fanfare, no goodbyes.

[Jon Lovett]

No. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. Didn't even look at them. I don't think I made a little joke. Job is spoken. Burn bright and fast.

[Parvati Shallow]

Burn bright and fast.

[Jon Lovett]

Tried something.

[Parvati Shallow]

Stick a dynamite. You did give them a goodbye.

[Jon Lovett]

I waved, I waved, I waved.

[Parvati Shallow]

You did. Do you wish you didn't?

[Jon Lovett]

My regret is so. I wasn't surprised at all, as, you know, like, they show. There's so much talking and trying to figure things out, and I felt like I had, like, a 20% chance and my only question was whether I should play my shot in the dark or not. But I wasn't. My regret, looking back is like, I had this thought of, like, I should dump out my bag in front of everybody and take the shot in the dark and go back there. But, you know, it's just, I felt like I never got purchase, you know, Like I never, like, I needed to get through. I told Jeff when I, like, met him for the first time, like, I'm gonna go far in this game or I'm gonna get out first. And, like, that's just my personality. And I just, like, never, like, I needed to get through one vote to just sort of get my ceilings. And I just didn't get that chance.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah. Next time playing again.

[Jon Lovett]

Next time, next time. Next time.

[Parvati Shallow]

You burn bright and long.

[Jon Lovett]

That would be nice. That'd be nice.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

All right, now, before we let you go, you are world renowned for the backstab, for the blind side. We have some historic political, political backstabs and blindsides we would like for you to review. First up, we have John McCain, who surprised everybody by voting to save Obamacare by giving it a thumbs down in the stunned face of Republicans. And then President Donald Trump. And now President, unfortunately. Do we have that clip 1:29am Senator.

[Parvati Shallow]

McCain reenters the chamber. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell stands at the front of the room like he had most of the night. The grin on his face, though, quickly disappears.

[Jon Lovett]

Mr. Peters.

[Parvati Shallow]

Senator Bernie Sanders appears to nudge Senator Jeanne Shaheen as if to say, watch this.

[Jon Lovett]

So good.

[Parvati Shallow]

McCain waves his hand to get the attention of the Senate clerk, pauses for just a moment, and gives a dramatic thumbs down.

[Jon Lovett]

Boom. Thumbs down.

[Parvati Shallow]

Audible gasp on the Senate floor That.

[Jon Lovett]

Was a real blindside.

[Parvati Shallow]

I love that.

[Jon Lovett]

That was a real political blindside.

[Parvati Shallow]

Well, this is the other reason why people love Survivor, because we are so trained in this kind of game in life. Like, we watch that and we're like, oh, my God, we love it. It's like getting some. Like winning something or getting something over on somebody.

[Jon Lovett]

Yeah. Healthcare. In this case, it was healthcare.

[Parvati Shallow]

Let's win healthcare.

[Jon Lovett]

Sometimes it's like a sandwich and maybe an idol, but in this case, it was Obama.

[Parvati Shallow]

Something that really, really mattered.

[Jon Lovett]

Did matter a little. Did matter.

[Parvati Shallow]

I love a blind side like that.

[Jon Lovett]

Let's do one more, which is. This was Ted Cruz at the 2016 Republican convention. He was speaking because he was meant to endorse Trump. And then he did this. If you love our country and love your children as much as I know that you do, stand and speak and vote your conscience. Vote for candidates up and down the ticket who you trust to defend our freedom. Be faithful to the Constitution.

[Parvati Shallow]

Wow.

[Jon Lovett]

It was, I would say, the only act of political courage in his life.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah.

[Jon Lovett]

And he did. He did recant soon after. Yes. He said, my conscience tells me, let's do everything we can to stop Hillary Clinton. So he did backtrack on it, but it was pretty good. That was. That's an intense backstab on the floor of the Republican convention.

[Parvati Shallow]

I love a good backstab. God. Especially when there's a huge live audience.

[Jon Lovett]

Oh, yeah.

[Parvati Shallow]

And you know the feeling that he has when he's saying it, he's like, oh, I'm the most badass dude in the joint. And then afterwards he's like, shoot, I have a courage hangover.

[Jon Lovett]

Did you ever have any. Do you ever have any courage hangovers in a blindsign?

[Parvati Shallow]

Well, I always felt a little bit like, oops, Like I'm gonna have to do damage control. Like after we blindsided Ozzy and then I had to deal with James and then after I played the double idol. So I played one of Russell's idols and he wasn't aware and I stole his thunder. And then I had to deal with Russell after that. Those moments were like, oopsies.

[Jon Lovett]

Ever done a blindside in the world? In the real, actual non survivor world?

[Parvati Shallow]

Oh, my God. Probably, like, I would really have to dig into the archives of my brain for that. But I'm sure I have, like, I do a lot of stuff, so possibly most likely I have.

[Jon Lovett]

I don't know what.

[Parvati Shallow]

Yeah, okay. Moving on.

[Jon Lovett]

I like that. I like that. Dating women. You gonna stick with it? You don't have to answer that. You don't have to answer that. You don't have to answer. Parvati, thank you so much for being here. This was so much fun. It was so good to talk to you. Thank you so much.

[Parvati Shallow]

Thank you.

[Jon Lovett]

Love it or Leave It It's Love.

[Parvati Shallow]

It or Leave It.

[Jon Lovett]

If you're already scrolling endlessly, which we know you are, don't forget to follow us at Crooked media on Instagram, TikTok and all the other ones for original content, community events and more. You can also find Love it or leave it on YouTube for videos of your favorite segments and other YouTube exclusive content. And if you want to sing our praises or rip us a new one, please drop us a review. Finally, if you want to listen to Love it or Leave it ad free and get access to exclusive shows, go to crooked.com friends to subscribe on Supercast, Substack, YouTube or Apple Podcasts. Wherever you are, you can find us Love it or Leave it is a Crooked Media production. It is written and produced by me, John Lovett and Lee Eisenberg. Kendra James is our executive producer, Bill McGrath and Caroline Reston are our producers and Kennedy Hill is our associate producer. Hallie Keeper is our head writer. Sarah Lazarus, Jocelyn Coffin, Peter Miller, Alan Pierre and Subha Agarwal are our writers. Jordan Kanter is our editor. Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis provide audio support. Stephen Colon is our audio engineer. Our theme song is written and performed by sure sure. Thanks to our designer Sammy Kaderna Reeves for creating and running all of our visuals, which you can't see because this is a podcast. And to our digital producers David Toles, Claudia Shang, Mia Kelman, Delon Villanueva and Rachel Gajewski for filming and editing video each week so you can. Our head of production is Matt de Groat and our production staff is proudly unionized with the Writers Guild of America.

[Parvati Shallow]

Love it or Leave it or leave it.

[Jon Lovett]

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