What a Weekday: Ba Da Ba Ba Ba I'm Losin' It!

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Lovett or Leave It" – Episode: "What a Weekday: Ba Da Ba Ba Ba I'm Losin' It!"

Host/Author: Crooked Media
Host: Jon Lovett
Guests: Erik Larson (Historian and Author)
Release Date: [Insert Date]

---

1. Introduction to the Episode

The episode kicks off with Jon Lovett humorously promoting Carl's Jr.’s Big Carl burger deal. Shortly after, the hosts transition into a candid conversation about self-awareness and the importance of having friends who can provide honest feedback.

Notable Quote:

• Jon Lovett [00:55]: "I always want to be told."

---

2. Exploring Erik Larson's "The Demon of Unrest"

Jon Lovett introduces historian Erik Larson, discussing his latest book, The Demon of Unrest, which delves into the tumultuous period leading up to the American Civil War. Larson highlights the intricate buildup between Lincoln’s election and the onset of the war, emphasizing the perspectives of those who inadvertently set the stage for one of America's bloodiest conflicts.

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Lovett [01:35]: "I love this book. I found it to be a fascinating period of time... what it is like to think about the perspective of the people that were making that Civil War a reality."
• Erik Larson [42:02]: "The 'Demon of Unrest' being unleashed in America in this anti-villain antebellum period leading up to the Civil War."

---

3. Political Highlights of the Week

The discussion shifts to current political events, focusing on Vice President Kamala Harris campaigning alongside Liz Cheney in key battleground states. The conversation critiques Republican strategies, highlighting perceived hypocrisy and moral standards.

Notable Quotes:

• Halle Kiefer [03:14]: "There will be millions of Republicans who do that on November 5th, vote for Vice President Harris."
• Jon Lovett [03:40]: "The whole point is to do it when they can see it. That's what it's about."

---

4. Donald Trump’s McDonald's Visit

A significant portion of the episode analyzes Donald Trump's recent visit to a McDonald's in Feasterville, Pennsylvania. The hosts humorously dissect Trump's behavior, attire, and the overall impact of his appearance on public perception.

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Lovett [04:56]: "Something you do is going to be great, it's okay, and you do something that's supposed to be okay... But he did put on an apron."
• Erik Larson [06:08]: "We're going work."

---

5. Elon Musk’s Involvement in the 2024 Election

The conversation critiques Elon Musk’s attempts to influence the 2024 presidential election, particularly his America PAC's canvassing efforts in Arizona and Nevada. The hosts discuss the implications of fake door-knocking reports and Musk's controversial proposal to give away $1 million each day to registered voters in swing states.

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Lovett [26:15]: "It's a good question. I don't know."
• Erik Larson [26:24]: "I'm doing."

---

6. "Wicked" Musical Poster Controversy

The hosts address the backlash received by Cynthia Erivo regarding a fan-made poster for the musical Wicked. The discussion delves into issues of fan art, character representation, and the fine line between creative expression and offensive content.

Notable Quotes:

• Cynthia Erivo [34:15]: "None of this is funny. None of it is cute. It degrades me. It degrades us."
• Sarah Lazarus [34:40]: "There's an earnestness that does speak to... comes out in their talent."

---

7. Call to Action: Election Engagement

As the election approaches, the episode emphasizes the urgency of voter participation. The hosts encourage listeners to engage with VoteSave America’s Last Call program, urging them to contact friends in battleground states to secure votes. Practical advice and inspirational messages are provided to motivate active involvement.

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Lovett [30:01]: "There are two weeks left. If you are listening to this, you can get to a swing state to knock on doors."
• Halle Kiefer [32:26]: "It's a good question. I don't know."

---

8. Sponsors and Final Remarks

The episode wraps up with promotional segments for sponsors like BetterHelp and the International Rescue Committee, followed by a brief plug for PayPod, reinforcing the show's blend of humor, politics, and cultural commentary.

Notable Quotes:

• Jon Lovett [38:28]: "If you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help a try."
• Jon Lovett [41:57]: "Thank you so much to Erik Larson."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Historical Insight: Erik Larson’s exploration of the Civil War era provides a mirror to contemporary political tensions, emphasizing the cyclical nature of societal conflicts.

• Current Political Dynamics: The episode critically examines recent political maneuvers by key figures like Kamala Harris, Liz Cheney, and Donald Trump, highlighting underlying hypocrisies and strategic missteps.

• Influence of Wealth in Politics: Elon Musk’s attempts to sway the 2024 election underline concerns about the disproportionate impact of billionaire donors on democratic processes.

• Cultural Sensitivity: The Wicked poster controversy serves as a case study in the delicate balance between fan creativity and respect for public figures.

• Voter Engagement: With only two weeks left in the election cycle, the call to action underscores the importance of grassroots efforts and personal outreach in securing electoral victories.

---

Conclusion

"What a Weekday: Ba Da Ba Ba Ba I'm Losin' It!" offers a rich tapestry of historical parallels, sharp political critique, and cultural observations. Through engaging discussions and insightful commentary, Jon Lovett and his co-hosts provide listeners with both entertainment and a deeper understanding of the forces shaping current events.

---

Listen to "Lovett or Leave It" wherever you get your podcasts and don't forget to check out their YouTube channel for additional content and highlights!

Transcript

[John Lovett]

Carl's Jr. S. Big Carl fans know nothing beats the layers and layers of flavor of a Big Carl. Nothing beats that Char rolled beef, American cheese, and tangy Carl's plastic sauce. Nothing except getting a second Big Carl for just $1. Big Carl, just one ups itself for just one buck. The buy one Big Carl, get one for a buck. Deal only at Carl's Jr Big Burger. Good Burger, available for a limited time at participating restaurants. Tax not included. Price may vary. Not valid with any other offer, discount or combo. I need. There needs to be. You need to have, like, a warning system with friends to be like, hey, am I being. Am I turning myself into a clown? Can someone tell me?

[Sarah Lazarus]

I think the answer is just having real friends. So who would say that to you?

[John Lovett]

Yeah, I just say that as someone who's like, I'm not even. I could absolutely see myself going down that path. Like, I could become one of those clown people.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Yeah, we know.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, I know you know.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Do you want to. Do you want us to tell you if we started to slide? Okay.

[John Lovett]

I always want to be told.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Yeah, no, you're still good.

[Kendra James]

You need a stronger fear of needles.

[John Lovett]

I will do whatever works. And even some things that don't work.

[Sarah Lazarus]

To flee from your own mortality, to avoid aging.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. She was saying, like, when you're dating someone, your check should be, is this a person who could help me through the death of my mother?

[Sarah Lazarus]

I think that's totally reasonable.

[John Lovett]

Well, you just don't think that way on a first date.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Yeah.

[John Lovett]

Or a third date. But, like, you should.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Yeah.

[Kendra James]

Yeah.

[John Lovett]

We're back with Kendra, Halle, and Sarah. This week we also have an interview with historian Erik Larson about his book the Demon of Unrest, about the lead up to the Civil War. For some reason, I felt it was timely. I. I love this book. I found it to be a fascinating period of time to think about, which is the time basically between Lincoln being elected and inaugurated and the march towards the Civil War and what it is like to think about the perspective of the people that were making that Civil War a reality, even though they did not believe and could not predict how bloody and terrible it would turn out to be. And Kendra and I were here. We were into it.

[Kendra James]

I loved it. I started reading the book this weekend. And it's funny because you say period of time. What you did not explain is that it literally goes day by day across multiple locations, which I'm fine with. But you said during the interview that you stopped reading Grant's memoirs because you hated the troop movements. And he does which, again, I love this stuff. Erik Larson does describe, like, full on troop movements from Moultrie to Sumter. Yes, back to the mainland.

[John Lovett]

But it's really, it's much more like a narrative. The Grant memoir. It is a mechanical description of various aspects of the war planning. A topic for another day. We've got too much to talk about. Let's get into it. What a weekday. On Monday, Vice President Kamala Harris campaigned with former Wyoming Congresswoman Liz Cheney in the suburbs of Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin.

[Halle Kiefer]

I certainly have many Republicans who will say to me, I can't be public. They do worry about a whole range of things, including violence, but they'll do the right thing. And I would just remind people, if you're at all concerned, you can vote your conscience and not ever have to say a word to anybody. And there will be millions of Republicans who do that on November 5th, vote for Vice President Harris.

[John Lovett]

Imagine doing something and not telling everyone about it immediately. Couldn't be me. Republicans can be moral, but only under the COVID of night. Like, waiting till the cashier turns their back to put money in the tip jar. Makes no sense. The whole point is to do it when they can see it. That's what it's about. It's about the credit. You make a lot. You put the, you put the money in and you make a long, sustained eye contact, big smile.

[Sarah Lazarus]

That's for you.

[Kendra James]

You must be a delight to deal with.

[John Lovett]

I am a delight to deal with. I am a, I'm a delight. Added Cheney, like, if you wouldn't, if.

[Halle Kiefer]

You wouldn't hire somebody to babysit your kids, like, you shouldn't make that guy the President of the United States.

[Sarah Lazarus]

That's like.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, that rules out most presidents we've had. You think Rutherford B. Hayes knew how to change a diaper? Going forward, though, good rule. And also, by the way, even babysitting is an unnecessarily high bar for Donald Trump. Would you trust Donald Trump not to give your child a peanut butter cookie when you went to the bathroom even though he has a peanut allergy? Was the only piece of information you conveyed to him? Would you trust him not to think she's just being crazy? And kids love peanut butter. Now you're using the EpiPen. You never use the EpiPen. But Donald Trump gave your kid a peanut butter cookie.

[Erik Larson]

I guess he's likelier that he would just eat the peanut butter cookie, right? He's not giving his kids.

[Sarah Lazarus]

But then he'd, like, wipe his hands on the kid like, you use Your kid as a napkin.

[John Lovett]

And then, yeah, now we got hot. Now it's hives, the clock. Also in Michigan, Maria Shriver had this question for Harris. You know, everybody I talked to says, you know, I have to turn off the news. I can't read anything. I'm meditating, I'm doing yoga.

[Erik Larson]

I'm doing.

[John Lovett]

I'm so anxious. I just don't even know. I'm eating gummies. All kinds of things, you know. What are you doing? What are you doing?

[Sarah Lazarus]

Not eating gummies.

[Erik Larson]

Cop the sounded like she's eating gummies.

[Kendra James]

Yeah.

[Chris Lord]

Yeah.

[Kendra James]

I thought that's what she said.

[John Lovett]

And then Maria Shriver was arrested backstage. Can I just. It was all fine. That was the most. I'm talking to rich friends in New York and LA question I've ever heard. Oh, you're meditating and doing yoga. That's some. That was. That was rich person shit. Yeah.

[Kendra James]

The rest of us are going to work.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. I mean, some people are doing yoga, but, like, are we in Michigan here? We're in Royal Oak, Michigan. Are we meditating and doing yoga? Are the undecideds. We need doing? Are they meditating and doing yoga?

[Erik Larson]

Michigan, Weigh in in the comments.

[John Lovett]

We're going work.

[Erik Larson]

What are we doing in Michigan?

[Kendra James]

No, we're going to work, we're coming home, we're smoking a joint, and then we're watching Real Housewives. I think that is what.

[John Lovett]

That's what you're specifically doing.

[Sarah Lazarus]

But I do think, like, this straddles the line. I think it's like, how to be relatable and also like how to be aspirational to women. Where I think, like, there is something where it's like, okay, well, there. Maria Shire is having to medicate herself through this. I understand that part. Like, I think there is that element to it.

[John Lovett]

Yeah.

[Kendra James]

Wearing a sneaker. Very relatable.

[John Lovett]

It's a cool outfit.

[Sarah Lazarus]

I love.

[Kendra James]

I like it.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. I like that. They like. It's a good. I like this look. I like this group. I like the exactly six people sitting. Meanwhile, in a low energy interview with Dan Bongino on Friday, Trump offered this fresh take on serial rapist Harvey Weinstein.

[Donald Trump]

I was so amazed that Harvey Weinstein got schlonged. He got hit as hard as you can get hit because he was sort of the king of the walk, right? And yet he got hit.

[John Lovett]

Fuck, said Kamala Harris, lowering her head in her hands. That was my closing message. Interesting moment there of a man in decline. He didn't plan to say schlong.

[Sarah Lazarus]

No, you can see. You could see him hesitate.

[Erik Larson]

He searches for the perfect word, and that perfect word is schlong.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Schloss.

[John Lovett]

But I think it's more that he couldn't. I think that, like, we are watching Donald Trump decline. He said schlonged. I think he couldn't find a better word.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Yeah, no. His brain said, I got it. Don't you worry, sir. Schlogged.

[John Lovett]

We got to beat this guy. We're in for four schlong years. Interesting. Interestingly, the last time you heard the word schlonged was in 2015, when Donald Trump said Hillary Clinton got schlonged by Obama in the 2008 primary. He then posted this tweet for the ages. When I said that Hillary Clinton got schlonged by Obama, it meant got beaten badly. The media knows this often used word in politics. I wanted to talk about this because this is a reminder that when Trump first ran in 2015, he felt like he had to explain himself a tiny bit. Like he felt like when he said this, he needed to say, no, no, no, I just met beaten badly. Don't worry, I wasn't saying something more vulgar than that. No longer is he bound by whatever sense of restriction he felt in this moment. That's gone. We're thinking about this.

[Sarah Lazarus]

And the 14 other tweets from this specific day are captured at UC Santa Barbara's American Presidency Project, because it's like they just are capturing documentation from every account, like a presidential election. And that's it. That's what we got.

[John Lovett]

It's funny, we were talking about Ulysses as you write memoirs in which he writes, like, movingly about the. About, you know, standing up to a confederate and saying the importance of standing up for the American flag and that that will sit side by side with. By schlonged, I, of course, meant. On Saturday, Trump was speaking at a rally in Pennsylvania when He rambled for 12 minutes. 12 minutes about the late Arnold Palmer, eventually getting lost in a reverie about Palmer's genitalia.

[Donald Trump]

But Arnold Palmer was all man. And I say that in all due respect to women, and I love women, but this guy, this guy, this is a guy that was all man. This man was strong and tough, and I refuse to say it, but when he took showers with the other pros, they came out of there, they said, oh, my God, that's unbelievable. I had to say it.

[John Lovett]

Thank you, Mr. Trump. The question was about abortion. What's annoying about all of this is now when I ask for an Alma Palmer, some jokester is Going to bring me iced tea and lemonade.

[Kendra James]

One of my qualifications for dating was not someone who helped me through a passing of a relative, but was specifically, I wanted to be with a man who would never bring up golf or anything related to golf in a conversation. And I really think this is why.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, golf is bad. Well, I mean, the problem is golf. A case of golf, you can come down with it later in life. You know, it's something that you can become golf with age. Well, it's not. You may not be golf in your 20s, but you can become golf in your 30s or 40s.

[Kendra James]

I think it's actually hard to come down with golf with age because. No, it hurts the back. When you get back into it, it hurts. Have you taken a golf swing lately?

[Sarah Lazarus]

Let me guess. No. It was polite of you to even ask that question.

[John Lovett]

No.

[Kendra James]

You haven't been to a top golf.

[John Lovett]

I haven't been to a top golf. I don't hate golf. I used to go, you know, Travis and I would golf. That's right. During the pandemic too. We would go golf. How about that? I mean, like three times.

[Kendra James]

I just lost like three points of three hits for you.

[John Lovett]

Oh, really? Are there hits left? How many?

[Sarah Lazarus]

Yeah, negative hits.

[John Lovett]

How are we?

[Barack Obama]

Are we.

[John Lovett]

Are we at the bottom of the. Arnold Palmer had a huge hog, huh? Well, that's all I needed to hear, said an undecided voter in Pennsylvania. And the hits from Trump kept coming. On Sunday, Trump visited a McDonald's in Feasterville, Pennsylvania, which had been closed for the photo op as he pretended to work at the fry station and pushed his basis claim that Kamala Harris didn't actually work at McDonald's in college. The best part is when Trump took a good long stare at the fry oil and said, this is what will inevitably kill me. Trump spent about five minutes making fries sans hairnet, and then he said, this.

[Donald Trump]

Never touches the human hand.

[John Lovett]

Nice and thank you. Never touches the human hand. Nice and full set of McDonald's employee. I've never heard it described that way, but sure. Did Trump think they just plunged their hands into the scalding fried and scoop them out with burning fingers? Is this guy a fucking gorilla man suit? I hate how much this made me want McDonald's. By the way, that's the ultimate testament to McDonald's fries. They could be subjected to this and come out unscathed. I went to McDonald's because of this, of this story yesterday. And even though I am currently on a miracle weight loss drug, I still managed to get down a McDouble, a hot and spicy McChicken and a 10 piece nugget meal.

[Kendra James]

And my normal order on Sunday when I was coming back from Target because this was all.

[Erik Larson]

Well, you guys looking at this right now? It's 10am I want fries so bad.

[John Lovett]

Come on.

[Kendra James]

The only thing I ever order in McDonald's.

[John Lovett]

It's going to be something crazy.

[Kendra James]

No, it's not to reward them. No, I got, I got a large fry, large Sprite. That's the only.

[John Lovett]

Oh well that sounds perfect. That's great. You just don't get a, you don't get a sandwich.

[Kendra James]

I haven't eaten McDonald's meat in.

[Sarah Lazarus]

I'm fish filet all the way.

[John Lovett]

I know you're fish filet. I know you're fish filet. I remember when I would, because there was a time when I would, when I would go to McDonald's more frequently and I just, I knew that if I got you a fish fillet you'd be pleased.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Keep think of me next time you go anyway.

[John Lovett]

No prison can hold my appetite. Once the idea of McDonald's is introduced. Trump spent 15 minutes at the drive thru window handing pre screen drivers bags of food that they hadn't ordered and dodging reporters questions. Obviously the drivers had to be pre screened. Anyone who has worked at the drive thru can tell you about the full spectrum of humanity's flaws and mental illnesses that come before you out that window. A person's car is a portal into their secret lives and your job is to reach out toward that portal time and time again. And then from the other side, imagine you're on your way to work. You pull into a drive through for a shame Egg mcmuffin that you plan to keep between you and God. You come around the corner to pick it up and fucking Donald Trump pops out of the window. It's a wake nightmare. You might disassociate, you might not trust that you aren't dreaming until you fully alienated yourself from every person who loves you. Seeing Donald Trump in a McDonald's drive through window could ruin your fucking life. Could you imagine, could you imagine like I was thinking about what it would be like to have that physical form, that shape pop out of the drive through window to hand you a bag of food. I think I would scream at the top of my lungs. Like, not even like in a self aware way. I think I would just, just like, like when, when that, when that studio head finds the horse in his bed, like that kind of car into a.

[Erik Larson]

Tree just to see if you were real.

[John Lovett]

What'd you do?

[Erik Larson]

You would crash your car into a.

[John Lovett]

Tree just to see if you were real, Right? Exactly. Like this can't be happening.

[Kendra James]

You can't eat that food. Like that's the other thing you have to go to. You have to go to the next.

[Sarah Lazarus]

McDonald's because, you know, he wants to touch it with his human hand.

[John Lovett]

Yeah.

[Kendra James]

Also he keeps bringing it up and like I don't, I, I don't know what they do at McDonald's normally, but he's not wearing gloves.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Well, he doesn't have a hair net.

[John Lovett]

Yeah.

[Sarah Lazarus]

See all that shit's just falling in there.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. He doesn't have a hat on.

[Kendra James]

I'm not eating it.

[Sarah Lazarus]

I'd probably eat it, but I feel bad.

[John Lovett]

I'd eat it. 100% eat it. We know I can't get McDonald's again, right? No, I can't.

[Kendra James]

No, there's definitely another McDonald's around the corner that you can go to.

[Erik Larson]

Try.

[John Lovett]

We're not doing it. I don't want it. I had to eat it.

[Kendra James]

I don't have a close one here.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, you have to drive to. I know where you have to go. You have to drive to. It's at La Brea in Santa Monica. Yeah, it's best to come in so.

[Erik Larson]

That like it's through a Narnia wardrobe.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, I mean you don't want to go through the. You have to make the. It's a tough left from La Brea, so it's best to either come around or to take Lexington to make the left to get into the McDonald's or go down Santa Monica, make the right and then the right. I would say if, hypothetically, if I've.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Got Grant's diary of your movement.

[John Lovett]

Anyway, even though the drivers were pre screened, things got dicey when one asked for an extra barbecue sauce and an abortion because you only get one sauce with the four piece. People don't know that. Of course, the fun of the event couldn't help but make way for the snarling chaos and evil just beneath the apron, as Trump once again refused to say he'd accept the election results. Either way.

[Chris Lord]

Will you accept the results of the election?

[John Lovett]

Yeah, sure.

[Donald Trump]

It's a fair election.

[John Lovett]

Somehow, as usual, awfulness is even more offensive when spoken through a drive thru window. The drive thru window is a place of receiving what you asked for, of what you see is what you get of the best America has to offer. A place of fairness, a place of truth. The reporter then took the opportunity to ask the Hamburglar if we could trust him around all these juicy piping hot Big Macs. Another question. Trump refused to answer a question about raising the minimum wage.

[Donald Trump]

Well, I think this. I think these people work hard. They're great. And I just saw something, a process. It's beautiful. It's a beautiful thing to see. These are great franchises and produce a lot of jobs, and it's great and great people working here, too.

[John Lovett]

Ba da ba ba ba. I'm dodging it. These are great franchises. He's there at the behest of the owner. Trump as president will break unions, oppose the minimum wage, eliminate the protections against out of pocket costs for Obamacare, and pass a national sales tax to pay for tax cuts for billionaires while exploiting working people in every way possible and turning the federal government into a favor factory for his rich friends. But he did put on an apron.

[Sarah Lazarus]

He's wearing it.

[John Lovett]

Will it work? It's a good picture for him.

[Kendra James]

It's the one time the tie works and matches, and it's because you can't see how low it's been hanging.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Damn it.

[John Lovett]

It just works. It's a great picture for him. And you know the Trump people, their bet is that the picture will work because they think everyone's stupid. That's what they're counting on. It's like a sick and twisted joke.

[Sarah Lazarus]

And you guys all ran out, went to McDonald's after you saw this?

[Erik Larson]

No, but I would like to.

[Kendra James]

The pictures were everywhere, and I was sitting at home and I knew I had to go to Target. I knew that There was a McDonald's. It's the Valley. I don't have to go too far. There's just one everywhere.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, I mean, I. I didn't want to go to McDonald's because I saw Trump in a McDonald's apron. I wanted to go to McDonald's because I heard the word McDonald's. McDonald's. McDonald's.

[Kendra James]

And fried, like fries.

[John Lovett]

Specific McDonald's.

[Sarah Lazarus]

You got to get Tim Walls in there. We got to get something about seeing.

[Erik Larson]

Him scoop the fries. Just seeing that many fries.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, it's a lot of fries. You see all the fries? You think, My God.

[Kendra James]

Yeah.

[John Lovett]

You think, you think abundance.

[Erik Larson]

Just the abundance.

[Kendra James]

If Tim Walls wants to go to, like, a five guys, I will go to five guys.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Second.

[John Lovett]

Five guys.

[Kendra James]

I love five guys.

[Sarah Lazarus]

It's a better, better girl.

[Erik Larson]

They have a nice grilled cheese.

[John Lovett]

Oh, yeah. Well, it's just. They just. On the bun. Yeah, yeah, they do have a good grilled cheese. I don't like the Fries that much there. I'm sorry.

[Kendra James]

Oh, I like how much they give you. Because you don't have to get a large, you can get a small.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, they can get fries in the bag. That's the. That's the bargain you make when you go to the five guys. But I, you know, I'd rather have less. I'd rather have fewer fries of a fry. I prefer McDonald's.

[Erik Larson]

That's just un American. I'm sorry.

[John Lovett]

Shake Shack. I know what I'm saying is blasphemous. You don't like Shake Shack.

[Kendra James]

Well, I've moved. So I was eating a lot of Shake Shack, and then I rediscovered five Guys. And I genuinely think five Guys makes a better product all around.

[John Lovett]

Really?

[Kendra James]

Yeah.

[John Lovett]

Not my position. I respect five guys. I don't. It's just not my preference. I. If I. You know why I think. I think the problem is, and I think it's important that we really get into this 14 days before the election is that I. For me, Five Guys sits in between McDonald's and Shake Shack.

[Kendra James]

Really?

[John Lovett]

Yes. And that in that I think of five Guys as a little bit more of a. It's more effort. And if I'm going to do the more effort version, I'd rather go up to Shake Shack. And if I want to do less effort, I'd rather go down to McDonald's.

[Kendra James]

I would put Shake Shack in the middle of McDonald's and Five Guys. Because I feel like Five Guys is the more effort.

[John Lovett]

No, but Five Guys. Five. Five Guys is. It's. Shake Shack is. Shake Shack's problem is the price. It's a price. Shake Shack is priced up. And so you end up like. Shake Shack is just. It's a little bit more premium. And I just. If I'm not going premium, I'm going to McDonald's or Taco Bell. To be honest, if we're being honest, Taco Bells.

[Kendra James]

You know how I feel about Taco Bell.

[Sarah Lazarus]

I looked up and all five guys are voting for Jill Stein. So something to keep in mind.

[John Lovett]

Four out of five, five guys. Trump reflected on his McDonald's stop on Monday.

[Donald Trump]

You know, you never know about life, and you never know what's good, what's bad. You do something that's going to be great, it's okay, and you do something that's supposed to be okay. This was supposed to be a routine stop, and it turned into a monster. But it was a beautiful monster. There was a lot of love.

[John Lovett]

Hey, do you ever wonder what it sounds like when a declining maniac Tries to wax poetic, but his vocabulary has dropped to about 300 words. That's what it sounds like.

[Sarah Lazarus]

14 days.

[John Lovett]

14 days, baby. I'm losing it. Ba da ba ba ba. I'm losing it.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Yeah, we could tell.

[John Lovett]

I am losing it. McDonald said the company does not endorse candidates for elected office, and that remains true in this race for the next president. We are not red or blue. We are golden. Really? Then explain to us how Mayor McCheese has run unopposed 12 times in a row on a platform of sending Grimace back to where he came from, which is hell. Where?

[Erik Larson]

Amy's grimace on January 6th.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. Where was Mary McHies on January 6th? He was there. Mary Cheese was at the Capitol.

[Kendra James]

Is it a real character, Mary Cheese?

[John Lovett]

Of course he is.

[Kendra James]

Oh, I genuinely didn't.

[John Lovett]

What's the sheriff called? Sheriff Burger. No, what's the cop called?

[Sarah Lazarus]

God damn.

[John Lovett]

Constable Chicken.

[Sarah Lazarus]

There's a bird, right? There's a bird that's like a pilot or something.

[Kendra James]

Really?

[John Lovett]

Sheriff.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Yeah. Female bird character.

[Erik Larson]

Huh?

[Kendra James]

I've only heard.

[John Lovett]

Is it Officer Big Mac?

[Sarah Lazarus]

Okay. And is there a girl bird? Did I make that up? I think it's Birdie.

[Kendra James]

I can only think of Grimace and the burglar.

[Sarah Lazarus]

There is a pantheon that they. They kind of got rid of.

[John Lovett]

Not the burglar. He's the Hamburglar.

[Chris Lord]

Okay.

[John Lovett]

He never shorter to the burglar.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Oh, okay. For breakfast, probably.

[John Lovett]

Anyway. Is Donald Trump a ridiculous clown? Is he a terrifying threat? He is, of course, both at once, a balance that Barack Obama attempted to strike. During a rally in Nevada over the weekend, Obama highlighted the mistake of dismissing Trump as unserious.

[Barack Obama]

When Donald Trump repeatedly lies or cheats or shows utter disregard for our Constitution or just insults people, people make excuses for it. They say, well, he's not serious. He's not everything a president says is serious.

[John Lovett]

Mass deportations of immigrants, punishing his enemies. Arnold Palmer's big hog being shocked. You don't touch scalding hot french fries with your bare hands. Because he never thought about, let alone saw, how his favorite food was delivered to him on a silver tray. He means every word. Obama also called out the inherent danger in Trump's recent looniness, describing his long word salad speeches in the town hall, where he swayed to music for 39 minutes.

[Barack Obama]

You would be worried if your grandpa started acting like this. You would. I mean, right? You'd, like, call up your brother, your cousin or something and be like, have you seen grandpa lately? What are we going to do? But this is coming from somebody who wants unchecked power wants the most powerful office on earth, with the nuclear codes and all that. Now, the point is, we don't. We do not need to see what an older lunar Donald Trump looks like.

[John Lovett]

With no guardrails, especially around the bathtub. As voting began across the country, pundits and podcasters alike rushed to predict the significance of the early vote. Spoiler? We don't know. Nobody knows. There will be no clear answer on who's winning this election until the election is over, and even then, probably not for a few days. Every moment spent trying to decipher ambiguous scraps of data is a moment you could be spending pestering an exhausted mother of three in Lansing, Michigan, via phone. In a bit of good news, Elon Musk's attempt to bump Trump's ground game in Arizona and Nevada might turn out to be a bust. Why? Because his canvassers were faking it. Or, as Musk calls it, coming every time. I like that one, yeah. According to league data obtained by the Guardian, up to a quarter of door knocks registered by Musk's America PAC in both states were reportedly fake, with canvassers allegedly lying about the number of houses they visited. Also, many of the canvassers appear to have been porn bots troubling the PAC's internal system flagged 24% of Arizona door knocks and 25% of Nevada door knocks as unusual survey logs. In one example, a canvasser logged home visits while sitting at Guayo's on the Trail restaurant in Globe, Arizona, a half a mile away from the doors he was allegedly knocking. Bad look for democracy, but excellent look for Guayo's incredible happy hour deals, bottomless chips and salsa for 5 99. I lie about canvassing voters in Arizona, too. Of course, canvassing for Trump is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to Elon Musk's attempt to influence the 2024 presidential election. Last week, Musk announced that he would give away $1 million each day to registered voters in swing states from now until the election. He's like a more sinister Willy Wonka, which is saying something because most of the kids who visited Willy Wonka's factory died horribly. To enter, voters have to sign Elon's petition pledging to support the first and Second Amendments. Some experts say Musk's offer may be illegal and constitutes election interference. Yeah, we can't have one billionaire illegally buying elections. It's not fair to the other billionaires and corporations trying to buy it legally. If I were in one of these swing states I'd sure as shit sign that pledge. Many of you listening are perhaps eligible. Consider taking that pledge. Might put you in a position to take a million dollars from the world's richest loser and get the funniest fucking story of your life. That'd be awesome when you sign it. If you lived in Pennsylvania, I would.

[Sarah Lazarus]

It's a good question. I don't know.

[Kendra James]

I don't. I wouldn't want my name on that for posterity's sake.

[Sarah Lazarus]

I would immediately donate it to like plan. Yeah, I feel like you have to immediately donate it.

[John Lovett]

And by the way, if you win a million dollars, a meal mux, you could donate some of it. I still feel pretty good about it. How about this? Buy yourself a car as a down payment for a house and hundreds of thousands of dollars for good cause. That's a great day.

[Erik Larson]

It's easier than going on Survivor and losing immediately.

[John Lovett]

Oh, wow. Just didn't expect a. Wow. Just didn't expect it. Just a.

[Erik Larson]

Just as far as we can.

[John Lovett]

Samurai swords indeed. Just sitting here, having a nice time. Next thing I know. Ow.

[Kendra James]

That's my job.

[Erik Larson]

Lest you forget.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, lest you forget. Well, got him. While Elon Musk might not like being in politics, he sure likes spending his money on it. According to the Guardian, Musk donated $75 million to his America PAC to support Trump in the last three months. He remains the PAC's only donor. Fortunately for our side, Kamala Harris has set a record for fundraising this fall, raising over $1 billion in the three months leading up to September 30, while Trump has raised less than he did in 2020. Between targeting battleground states and focusing on canvassers, Elon Musk and Donald Trump are essentially running the evil version of the Democratic campaign. If Kamala is Spider Man, Elon and Donald are like Green Goblin, crazy rich villains. While we're all out here just missing our uncle. You know, I think one of the.

[Kendra James]

Other things that I took from Demon of Unrest that I didn't know anything.

[John Lovett]

About, by the way, look, it's happening now. Kendra's talking about it.

[Kendra James]

I like it.

[John Lovett]

I know, I know, Eric.

[Sarah Lazarus]

I know you would like it.

[John Lovett]

I want to hear what you have to say.

[Kendra James]

Erik Larson, he's a good writer. He makes history really accessible to the masses. It's very important. But there was one of the guy, one of the main protagonists in the story. It's either Ruffin or him, and I think it's Ruffin. He was also a scientist who, because he was a. Remember, he studied soil that was his big thing. He studied soil in order to make crop yields larger. But then. And he was also a very rich plantation owner. And then his side gig was being a rabid secessionist who went from state to state after.

[John Lovett]

That's roughing.

[Kendra James]

Yeah. And I'm just like, oh, he's. This is the same thing. A person who could just be doing science.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[John Lovett]

Yes. There's a moment. So in the book, there's this guy Ruffin. Edmund Ruffin.

[Kendra James]

Edmund Ruffin.

[John Lovett]

Edmund Ruffin. He's just a vile, egotistical narcissist who craves attention and praise for. For pushing success, for pushing. Craves attention and praise for pushing the Civil War to the point where he goes to the battlefield and rides on a cannon. And there's just clearly soldiers who have to manage this old man who's famous, who's come to be part of the battle.

[Kendra James]

And he's 67, so he's very old by 1861 standards.

[John Lovett]

But at one point, he is sleeping nearby a cannon, and a bunch of soldiers set the cannon off, basically deafening him. And it's very clear, like, they fucking hated this guy. And it's just funny to like. It's like. Yeah, it's. There's a reason I thought it would be worth talking to Erik Larson, because.

[Kendra James]

I get it now.

[John Lovett]

Oof. Yeah. So. And again, we're not. We're not saying these things are the same. I'm not saying these things are exactly the same or equivalent. But history. History. It's almost like Joe Biden would say, quoting Seamus Haney. It does rhyme, right?

[Sarah Lazarus]

I would say if. It's almost like if we didn't learn from it, it will repeat itself.

[John Lovett]

Yeah.

[Sarah Lazarus]

We're really dedicated to not learning from it.

[John Lovett]

And even sometimes we learn from it and it repeats itself. You know, it's sort of like if you don't learn from history, you're doomed to repeat it, but you're also doomed to repeat it if you learn about it.

[Erik Larson]

You know, there's only so much stuff that can happen. Eventually it's got to start repeating.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. Like when we're trying to decide on what color should be the crooked color, and we were talking about what brands use which colors, and the person that was designing it got pretty annoyed with how circuitous the conversation had become and said, well, yeah, it's tough to choose, but there are only six colors. So instead of spending the next two weeks refreshing Twitter and panicking yourself in your group text, how about you volunteer? Knock on Doors. Make calls. Get together with your fellow anxious Americans to make an actual difference. Do not sit home and just freak out. Save that for election night. As Hawaii Senator Brian Schott said during our Prod Save America interview, if we do everything we're supposed to do, we will win. And if we do anything we're not supposed to do, we will not. Are we going to win? No one knows. I feel terrified. Correct Feeling. You don't get to feel okay these next two weeks. And if you do, you're just lying to yourself. Because if Donald Trump wins, none of us are anxious enough. And if he loses, it will be because we were awake to the danger. There are two weeks left. If you are listening to this, you can get to a swing state to knock on doors. You can make calls, you can donate. And at VoteSave America, we are launching a new program. It is called Last Call. Because the messengers that will make the biggest difference are the ones people know and trust. So we need everyone listening. We need you to think of three people you know who live in a battleground state like Arizona, Nevada, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, North Carolina or Georgia and make sure they vote. Scroll through your contacts, find those names, text or call them. Then do that a few more times before election Day. We are not kidding. The reminders work. And if you don't know anyone in those three states, you definitely know three people who could use a nudge to vote, no matter where they live. If you don't know what to say in those texts, DMS and calls, go to votesaveamerica.com vote to see your voting checklist and click Last call to get your script to convince three people you know to vote. That's votesaveamerica.com vote. And if you do it, email us to tell us how it went with a voice memo and Crooked might play it on an upcoming pod. Everybody knows three people in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Georgia, Nevada, Arizona, North Carolina. Text them. They could be an old friend. They could be a college friend. They could be someone you slept with. They could be someone you didn't sleep with. They could be the love of your life and the time you didn't work. But you think about them every day. You think about them every single day.

[Erik Larson]

This is your in.

[John Lovett]

This is it.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Two birds, one stone.

[John Lovett]

Speaking of having to do a whole song and dance, Cynthia Erivo took the Internet to task for a fan made Wicked poster, which obscured her character's eyes, a reference to the musical's original poster, as well as an infamous Wicked meme that asked, is your pussy Green. So here we have the movie poster as it was released. It's inspired by the original cartoon version for the Broadway show, but they have Ariana a little more visible, and they have Cynthia Erivo a little more visible. You can see her eyes. So then some fan made this alternate poster that obscures the eyes, makes the lips red like in the original poster, covers up a bit more of Ariana's face, like the whisper, and also gives Cynthia Erivo more of a smirk. Someone also made reference to the fact that on the original Broadway poster, somebody had scrawled graffiti that said, is your pussy green? Which made the rounds many times over the years. Cynthia Erivo saw all this and said, this is the wildest, most offensive thing I have seen. Equal to that awful AI of us fighting. Equal to people posing the question, is your pussy green? None of this is funny. None of it is cute. It degrades me. It degrades us, wrote Erivo. The original poster is an illustration. I am a real life human being who chose to look right down the barrel of the camera to you, the viewer, because without words, we communicate with our eyes. Look, she's a theater kid. She's earnest. You don't get vocals like that. Being ironic or detached. That's for incels and podcast hosts who are incels. It sucks that you have to take yourself this seriously and be a little bit insufferable to be that good at musical theater, but that's the bargain every Broadway star makes. With the ghost of UTA Hagen, it was just sort of like, oh, it's not that. It's just a fan art. It's not a big deal.

[Kendra James]

The original poster, that's. I didn't.

[John Lovett]

You should be excited.

[Kendra James]

The original poster.

[John Lovett]

Ha ha. That's cool. That's the Ha.

[Sarah Lazarus]

It is sort of. It is interesting. I feel like musical theater people in. I think there is an earnestness that does speak to. That comes out in their talent, but then it does require them to be so humorless about their craft. I think I allow it. I think they're allowed to be just mad about everything. If I like it, if it helps their talent.

[John Lovett]

Oh, I just. I am glad. I am glad. Like, I am glad. Cynthia Erivo is just telling us how she feels, and she's not doing anything polished. She's out there. She's out there being herself. Great.

[Sarah Lazarus]

It's nice. I feel like everything is so ironic and detached and like, if you're younger, it's like, oh, everything's cringe. I like someone being like, I'm Just going to tell them how this, you know, how upset I am about this thing. That doesn't really matter.

[Kendra James]

I mean, until they're endorsing or not quite endorsing Kamala, then we have to have a whole 15 minute conversation about it.

[Sarah Lazarus]

That's.

[John Lovett]

Well, that's because the stakes. There's no stakes here. That's why this is fun. The stakes here are zero.

[Erik Larson]

I think it's right that she's outspoken about being upset. I do think it's a very funny thing to be upset about. That your fans are engaging with the thing you made and that somehow it hit on you.

[John Lovett]

I love it. I love it. I'm excited for the Wicked musical.

[Sarah Lazarus]

I couldn't believe you said that.

[Kendra James]

Yeah, I was really shocked. This PR campaign has been rough.

[Sarah Lazarus]

It's too much.

[John Lovett]

So I only found out yesterday that it's a two part movie that they divided in half. But actually, to me, that's not a bug, that's a feature. Because the first movie must go till Defying Gravity and that second act is the first.

[Sarah Lazarus]

So then who's going to see it?

[John Lovett]

Yeah, I don't know. But that's not my problem. I get to leave on Defying Gravity. And when I saw it the first time, when I saw Wicked, I saw it when it came to D.C. actually, I saw it. I mentioned this to Senator Jackie Rosen, in fact, because I was interviewing her and when I saw it with my mother at the Kennedy Center, Harry Reid was in the box next to us. And after Defying Gravity and the current comes down, like I was like crying and like applauding and on my feet. And then I looked to my right and Harry Reid fully asleep, which was awesome. But I didn't know really anything about Wicked when I saw it. And I don't really remember anything after that. Defying Gravity. I don't think anyone does, really.

[Kendra James]

Yeah, yeah. It's not. It's no. Into the woods second act.

[John Lovett]

Well, that's true. And finally, during Dua Lipa's rendition of do you believe in life after love, during the Rock and roll hall of Fame induction ceremony, Cher joined her on stage and said, I'm Cher. Wow. Yeah.

[Chris Lord]

Unbelievable.

[John Lovett]

I. I like, I thought Dua Lipa was doing fine. It's like a great live performance, just not, you know, just Dua Lipa doing a live show. And you don't realize until you hear Cher singing what Cher singing is like. And you hear that booming tone, that rich voice, and you're like. And that is a. That woman. How old is she in her 70s?

[Kendra James]

Yeah.

[John Lovett]

Incredible.

[Kendra James]

A very.

[Erik Larson]

I don't know. It's just going to Italy and be like, well, I've had Olive Garden. I guess I kind of know what this is than having actual pasta.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Like, oh, no, dua Lima is Olive Garden. Cher.

[John Lovett]

This is like if you were recording a weekly political podcast and then bam, Cher walks in and starts podcasting.

[Erik Larson]

I bet she's great at it.

[John Lovett]

Yeah.

[Sarah Lazarus]

Oh, God. If she had a podcast, how much.

[John Lovett]

Better would this episode be if Cher walked in right now?

[Erik Larson]

So much better.

[John Lovett]

Okay, before we go, I have not been able to stop talking about this book, and now Kendra's reading it and she understands why. So I sat down with Eric Larson to talk about Fort Sumter January 6th, and what we can all learn from a time in which a group of Americans turned against the country as a result of right wing and racist propaganda and also the Civil War, you know? So when we come back, my conversation with Eric Larson. Hey, don't go anywhere.

[Kendra James]

There's more of Love it or leave it. Coming up.

[John Lovett]

The credit card companies are ripping you off and you don't even know it. Every time you use your credit card, they charge a hidden swipe fee. It costs the average family more than eleven hundred dollars per year. Really? $1,100. That's because the credit card companies organize banks into pricing cartels. It's like OPEC for credit cards. With no competition, we have the highest credit card swipe fees in the world. That is just wrong. Thankfully, the House and Senate have a bipartisan bill to fix this problem. The Credit Card Competition Act. It would finally make credit card companies compete like every business across the country is supposed to do. So call your senators and representatives and tell them to pass the Credit Card Competition Act. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. This month is all about gratitude. And along with thanking family and friends, is another person we don't get to thank enough ourselves. I've been saying that to myself. In between my weekly dose of applause from an audience, I've been looking for more opportunities to thank myself.

[Kendra James]

Maybe a standing O for you.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, from you right there in the mirror. It's sometimes hard to remind ourselves that we are trying our best to make sense of everything. And in this crazy world, that isn't easy. Here's a reminder to send some thanks to the people in your life, including yourself. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. It's now the time of the election season where I realize that the low hum of anxiety of the election is hitting me in other places. Same like I'm starting to realize, like, oh, that's why I'm in such a bad mood. The country's on the precipice of decline.

[Kendra James]

Like, oh, my tummy hurts.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kendra James]

Why all the time?

[John Lovett]

Oh, yeah, it's weird that I have all of a sudden. It's also just all of a sudden I realize that like, oh, there's Tums in my car now. You know, I think maybe you turn 40 and then like the Tums appear.

[Kendra James]

The times I take a couple every day just to be proactive, you know.

[John Lovett]

Like, I got acid reflux. I got trump reflux. Huh? That's what's happening right now, that feeling in your chest. The point is, you need therapy. And if you're like me and scheduled a podcast recording where your therapy used to be, you realize how much that was a mistake. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give better help a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapist anytime for no additional charge. Let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com loveit today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H E L p.com loveit Love it or Leave it is brought to you by the International Rescue Committee. For more than 90 years, when crises strike, from war and violence to flood and famine, the International Rescue Committee has been there helping displaced families survive, recover and rebuild. The IRC responds within 72 hours of an emergency and stays as long as needed, providing humanitarian aid to millions of families. Right now, in crisis stricken places like Gaza, Lebanon, Afghanistan and Ukraine, severe winter weather is putting displaced families at even greater risk. Many makeshift camps can't withstand the extreme cold. Some people live without reliable electricity, while others can't afford the fuel to heat their homes. Pregnant women, children, the elderly and people with disabilities are especially vulnerable. Your tax deductible donations can help the IRC provide critical resources. Emergency food, clean water, shelter, fuel, medicines, blankets, winter gear and cash assistance. You can give confidently because the IRC is consistently awarded top marks by charity watchdog groups for their efficient use of donor contributions. Donate today by visiting rescue.orgrebuild that's rescue.orgrebuild. earlier this year, I read a book I haven't stopped thinking about and to my producer's exhaustion, talking about. Joining me now is the author of the book the Demon of Unrest, it's Erik Larson. Erik, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here.

[Chris Lord]

Thank you.

[John Lovett]

Let's start with this. What is the Demon of Unrest?

[Chris Lord]

Well, so the reason, the reason I call it the Demon of Unrest, I'm taking that actually from a letter written by one of the minor protagonists in the book and he's commenting on the demon of unrest being unleashed in America in this anti villain antebellum period leading up to the Civil War, some political discontent and discord. And I found that particularly striking because it really is, is a sort of an interesting resonance when you think of a demon, you know, running, running amok in the landscape, stirring up trouble. And so, so that's why, that's why I borrowed that for the title.

[John Lovett]

So when I, when I picked up the book, I just assumed that you had seen the events of January 6th unfold and all the tension and plotting that went into it and then started looking into Fort Sumter as a parallel. But actually you had begun working on that book during the pandemic long before January 6th, is that right?

[Chris Lord]

Right. Well, before, essentially a year before January 6th. Just sort of exploring the nature of, well, trying to answer for myself, I mean, how did the American Civil War start? It's a question that occurred to me back when my book tour for a previous book, the Splendid and the Vial, about Churchill, got cut in half by the pandemic. And I found myself with a lot of extra time on my hands. And back in that period as now, unfortunately, there was a lot of political discord. People were, you know, fringe people were muttering about a contemporary Civil War, contemporary secession. I just found myself thinking, well, how did the Civil War start? So I started looking into it. What happened with January 6th, as I watched that unfold was that it persuaded me in a very visceral way that this story that I've been working on for a year was not just a story from the distant past. It had a real contemporary resonance now, unfortunately, mentioning January 6th. Who knew, who knew that this would be a real flashpoint in America today? But apparently it is. I got a lovely, a lovely note from a cordial reader who tore out my author's note and said, and said January 6th, poor shit.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, well, it's. Well, in reading the book, you know, you write about someone named Edmund Ruffin, who was a fire eater, a very pro slavery, very anti Union Confederate. And can you talk about the role maybe this isn't the right term. I'm not drawing an exact parallel, but between the role of a form of right wing propaganda about the north and about Lincoln and the role that kind of writing played in exacerbating tensions and leading to the events of the book.

[Chris Lord]

Well, here's the thing. Back in the antebellum period, much as there is today, you know, we talk about echo chambers and people talking to themselves and wrapping themselves up into believing things that aren't, aren't, aren't true. This was the case back in. Back in 1860, 61 in particular, with regard to how the south viewed the advent of Abraham Lincoln, of course, was elected November 6, 1860, was not inaugurated until March of 1861. When he was elected, he made it very clear, and prior to his election, he made it very clear that he had no intention of abolishing slavery in states where it already existed, nor was he going to oppose the Fugitive Slave act, which abolitionists in the north found really atrocious. So basically, his stance was very moderate in terms of slavery. The south would not believe it. They saw him as the Antichrist. That they came to believe that his one goal was to abolish slavery, which of course to Southerners, Southern planters in particular, was an existentialist threat. So when you talk about propaganda, the south was convincing itself, the south was convincing itself that Abraham Lincoln had one goal in mind, and that is to abolish slavery. In the north, where abolitionism was on the rise, they saw the south and its protection of the institution of slavery as equally atrocious on their end. So you had this rift that grew ever wider in the course of those months between November 6th. Excuse me. And March 4th of 1861, Inauguration Day.

[John Lovett]

I was reading Grant's memoirs. Actually, I was reading them before I read your book. And I got to the part where he was describing in exquisite detail various troop movements, and I got bored.

[Chris Lord]

Okay, I love it that you said that you were reading about troop movements. You got bored. I've actually had a lot of people come to me and say, you know, I really didn't really want to read your book because I thought it would be boring. I wanted to wait for the good stuff, which of course is the troop movements of the battles.

[John Lovett]

So thank you. Yes, look, it's very interesting, but it's a lot of logistics. Grant goes into a lot of logistics in that book, but there's one part where he's talking about being in Missouri and the Union forces have just taken Camp Jackson, which was a Rebel military installation. And he's on the train and there's a pro Confederate guy on the train and he's ranting and raving about the north. And he says, things have come to a pretty past when a free people can't choose their own flag. Where I come from, a man dares to say a word in favor of the Union, we hang him from the limb of the first tree we come to. He thinks he's in a safe space. Grant goes up to him and basically says, I had not seen a single rebel hung yet, nor heard of one. There were plenty of them who ought to be, however. And what Grant says is, that man was so crest falling that I believe if I had ordered him to leave the car, he would have gone quietly out saying to himself, more Yankee oppression. And I do not believe, I cannot believe how modern that felt, how contemporary that felt. And I'm wondering if in your research for this book, you're doing all that, you're in all of these documents, these diaries, this source material, and then January 6th happens and was there some part of you that said, you know what, maybe this isn't as shocking as I, as, as I, as I felt. Maybe this is exactly what flows from what I've been looking into?

[Chris Lord]

Well, yeah, when January 6th unfolded, I mean, I was watching it right here in my office on cnn. I watched for hours as this, as this thing happened. And with, you know, just a growing sense of fury, anxiety, shock, what was going on, but also with a sense that I'd just been through all this reading these historical documents. Some of these things that I had been reading could have been written today, for example. Case in point is that in 1861, the two moments of gravest national concern before the actual start of the Civil War were would the electoral count be certified? Doesn't that sound familiar? And would the inauguration come off with Lincoln surviving? Now, the electoral count back in 1860, they took it a lot more seriously, the potential for disruption of this. There was a gentleman named Winfield Scott, General Winfield Scott, commanding general of the US army, who was a lot of things. I mean, he was ill, he was 6 foot 4, 350 pounds, ailing in every conceivable way. But one thing he was, was utterly loyal to the Union. And he vowed that nobody was going to interfere with this electoral count. And if they did, he was going to, if anybody did, he was going to strap him to the muzzle of a cannon and fire that cannon and as he put it, manure the hills of Arlington, Virginia with his body and he flooded Washington with cavalry, with cannon, with soldiers. And indeed, the electoral count came off fine, although there was an attempt to disrupt it with people trying to get into the Capitol. But with that kind of force, it was obvious that there was not going to be any disruption of the count.

[John Lovett]

So you rely on a lot of original documents, diaries, source material. But of course, some of the best stories people don't write down, you can't know what they are, you can't always report them because they weren't recorded. But how do you think about that? Right? Because if you're trying to base as much as you can on what people were willing to put to paper, those are accounts that are inherently going to be in some way sanitized.

[Chris Lord]

Well, I don't know. I mean, look, you use the phrase based on, which suggests that there's partly based on these things, partly not scrupulous with this book to adhere entirely to the documents that existed at the time. The documents, both government, private and the diaries and so forth, pretty comprehensive and give a really, really very rich view of how people were thinking and what was happening. Is anything being sanitized? I don't know if Edmund ruffin In his 4,000 page diary, he's one of the villains in the book. If Edmund ruffin in his 4,000 page diary is not telling us the truth about some aspect of what he's writing about. Well, maybe that's true, but boy, he sure gives you a lot to go with. You don't have to worry about the rest.

[John Lovett]

It's funny that you call him a villain because you're very. You really try to let their words, let people hang themselves with their own words. But as I'm reading the book, I thought, Eric Larson fucking hates this guy. Is that right?

[Chris Lord]

Well phrased. First of all, no, you know, I'm a journalist. I'm a trained journalist. There are two of me. You know, there's one that sits up here, this is the good guy who says, wow, this is really, this is sad, this is hard, this is aw so forth. This one sits up here and sees this stuff, sees Edmund Ruff and reads his diaries. Like, wow, this is really good stuff. This is great. You know, did I do I hate Ruff and you know, no, not, not, not really. I mean, but you, as you say, I just, I let him hang himself. I mean, he was a hateful, hateful man. And so I just play out what was in his diary and let, let him tell us exactly how he was feeling. His hatred, his absolute hatred for Yankees, anything Northern and just his, even his initial hatred of being a Virginian, that's where he hailed from. Because Virginia was not avidly seeking secession in the way that South Carolina was. Even there, he was like continually complaining about Virginia, Virginia, Virginia. His diary, if you can stand it, is really well worth reading. It's an amazing, amazing document. Like I said, 4,000 pages, very candid pages. When you read that diary, you come away thinking, yeah, Ruffin has bared his soul to me and he is not, he's not dissembling about anything. Similarly, I may say to another villain.

[John Lovett]

In the book, which one?

[Chris Lord]

James Henry Hammond from South Carolina, Planter and Senator, who also left a very detailed diary, sufficiently detailed that he reveals that he had a sexual dalliance with four of his nieces at one time. Yeah, pretty candid.

[John Lovett]

That's what I actually, that was going to be literally my next question, because that's another villain in this book. And this is somebody abusing several children. And you tell the story from multiple perspectives. You get Edmund Rufford's perspective, you get James Hammond's perspective, you get Robert Anderson's perspective. He's the Kentucky born commander at Fort Sumter. And what I thought as I was reading the book is you're telling the stories through these various perspectives. And every person in their own mind is a hero of their journey. And yet there is evil here. These are people participating in contributing to being genuinely evil. And I wonder how you grapple with that in trying to tell this story, because the documents you have about James Hammond are by James Hammond, but he's committing atrocities inside of his house and telling himself a story about what that looks like. And so how do you strike the line between letting, as you say that being meticulous and scrupulous and using the words that these people put to paper while also recognizing that in history's lens these were monsters.

[Chris Lord]

Right, Right. Well, in the case of Hammond, it's pretty clear that dalliance with four nieces is inexcusable by any standard in any time. If we take that off the plate and we talk about other things that he did and other things that he felt, you really have to view them through the lens of the. Something that I always have to remind myself is that it is a mistake of the first order to bring modern judgments into play when reading past documents, past diaries and so on. Again, I make the exception of the sexual downloads with four nieces. I don't care what area you're in. That's pretty vile. But screenwriters always refer to point of view, and this is something I really try to adhere to, is I'm trying to look at this period. I was trying to look at this period through the eyes of people who existed in that time, what their goals were, what their standards were. I mean, for example, another thing that today we would classify as evil, but back in that era was fairly pretty much the norm among southern planters. Senator Hammond has a manual for his overseers to help manage his population of enslaved blacks. And the last portion of that manual is a very detailed essentially how to guide for how to whip his enslaved laborers. Now today, we are outraged by this. This is absolutely incredible that this happened back in the day. This was the norm. Such so much a norm that he felt he could actually codify it in his manual.

[John Lovett]

A norm in one part of the country. And yet obviously you have abolitionists, white and black, fighting against the practice.

[Chris Lord]

Exactly. A norm in the South.

[John Lovett]

But at the same time, and I struggle with this a little because it's funny, it's like if I'm talking, I'm supposed to be this sort of, I don't know, lefty progressive, but I find myself less a moral relativist, like you see in this work. The way in which their participation in slavery destroyed their souls, made them. Made them coarse, egotistical, narcissistic, mean spirited, closed off, and ultimately unhappy. I don't want to. Edmund Ruffin's story does not end happily. Right. These are people that were corrupted by something even though they tried to convince.

[Chris Lord]

Spoiler alert.

[John Lovett]

Yes, yes. Spoiler alert. Edmund Ruffin. And honestly, I'm sorry, I was like a little bit like, good. I was satisfied. I was like, you may not want to say that you hated that guy. I fucking hated that guy.

[Chris Lord]

It was sort of a perverse slow clap moment.

[John Lovett]

Yeah. The zealotry of someone like Edmund Ruffin, the convincing themselves of the righteousness of their cause, almost the kind of projection, the way in which they defended their kind of way of life. On some level, in reading it, you couldn't help but think, I don't know, that these people really believe this. I think on some level there is a way in which they are trying to convince themselves while aware of these horrors. Is there any truth to that?

[Chris Lord]

You know, one of the things that I found particularly fascinating is, is the advent of the so called pro slavery movement, which is a big part, I feel, of what provided fuel for the start of the Civil War. You know, going back to as early as 1800s, Southern, even Southern planters felt that slavery was. They would Refer to it as a necessary evil. But over time, as slavery began to be perceived as, as an act of evil by the north, by the international community in the south, there grew this pro slavery movement because they couldn't abide this perception of themselves as evil because they kept slaves. So they came up with this rationale, this idea that, and came to really believe it. The pro slavery movement was very, very effective in having the South. It was not meant to persuade the North. It was meant to persuade southerners that really what they were doing was what they were maintaining in terms of the institutional. Slavery was the best of all worlds for everybody concerned, including the enslaved blacks. That's the really interesting element of their argument. They felt that they were doing these people essentially a favor by giving them basically, you know, three squares a day, insulating them from the labor market vicissitudes up in the north, protecting them through economic ups and downs. They really came to believe that, and they weren't kidding around. It was not like they were looking in the mirror in the morning saying, okay, I think this is horrible, but I'm going to propound this view, this pro slavery ethos. Now, there were people who were very clear eyed about slavery. One of them is somebody I love in the book, a diarist named Mary Boykin Chestnut, the premier female diarist of the Civil War era. And she was very conflicted about slavery and she was not shy about stating that conflict. And so that. And I found that very compelling. She's sort of the person who stood there in the murk between north and South.

[John Lovett]

So one point you make throughout the book is this is a group of people motivated by their ideological sentiments, by their belief in this evil institution, by their loyalty to the Union. But. But few could have comprehended that what they were marching towards was the most deadly war in American history. And yet that is what they were marching towards.

[Chris Lord]

Right, right. Let's stop there for a second because that to me is one of the also very, very fascinating elements of the saga and something that actually I think has a lot of relevance today. You know, what amazes me is that with this tension, there was the prevailing belief certainly in the south, was that there would be no civil war. And if there was, there would be so little, there would be so little bloodshed. One guy vowed that he would drink, that first of all, there would be so little bloodshed that it would only fill, as quote, unquote, a lady's thimble. And another guy vowed that he would eat all the corpses of this civil war because he Believed that there would be none. So here is this very interesting situation where people have persuaded themselves that this conflict is not going to lead to a civil war. The civil war that ultimately killed the current count, it lead to be 750,000 people. What underscored for me vis a vis today, first of all, my takeaway was that a, you know, when people say crazy things, take them seriously. When people today start talking about civil war, talking about violence and so forth, take them seriously because, you know, they probably mean it. The other thing that might take away from my research was that, you know, the inconceivable is always conceivable to someone. Case in point is Edmund Ruffin. He was one of the few in his diary. Well, actually, sorry, in his really, really bad novel called Anticipations of the Future, he was one of the few who actually saw forward far enough and darkly enough to recognize what a conflict like this would actually do. He envisioned the complete incineration of New York City by Southern forces as part of this conflict. And that came, not New York was never destroyed in the Civil War, but that volume that, that, that degree of violence comes a lot closer to what ultimately happened than this self delusion that any civil war would only provide enough blood to fill a lady's symbol.

[John Lovett]

As you look at this election, there's a lot of people listening to this that feel like they are seeing the kinds of. There are Edmund Ruffin's versions of Edmund Ruffin. I'm not making a direct comparison, but there are versions of Edmund Ruffin all around us. People who are saying the most extreme things, thirsty for blood, wanting the fight, vilifying their enemies. What lessons did you take from that of looking at how we kind of went into the Civil War that we could apply now and how we fight back against that kind of tension? How we. I don't know how you, how you deal with a demon of unrest.

[Chris Lord]

So my answer is, I mean, what you do is you try to have a safe and, you know, unthreatened election. And that's the best that you can do. I mean, we're living in troubled times and, you know, that's no secret to anybody how this gets resolved. I'm not the person to ask. I wrote a book about the start of the American Civil War in 1861, you know, with certainly no anticipation that the events of January 6th would occur. So. So it's anybody's guess what's going to happen and how to deal with it.

[John Lovett]

Well, you know, well, what help is that? We need you to write Something about the future.

[Chris Lord]

Well, I wish. I wish. I wish I could. I wish I could for, you know, you know, one of the things that is always tempting when you. When you look at history of historical patterns is that you maybe delude yourself into thinking that you can see, oh, this is not going to have a good end because we're moving in a direction that historically has not resulted in a very positive outcome. I think my speculation is that I think there's tremendous potential for violence in America. I know that the national intelligence, domestic intelligence entities, you know, Homeland Security and the FBI know that they are deeply concerned about this happening. And I come back to what I said before, is that, you know, when people start talking crazy, when people start talking crazy, take them seriously. And I, you know, maybe I'm. Maybe I'm alluding here to certain things that a certain individual has said about, you know, locking up Democrats and. And so forth, but, you know, take it seriously.

[John Lovett]

Thank you so much for your time. Last question before we let you go. What's the silliest or most surprising or funniest thing you've ever seen in a piece of primary documentation that you've been looking into?

[Chris Lord]

Oh, I mean, in any book.

[John Lovett]

Yeah, any book.

[Chris Lord]

Well, I'd have to say so often I come across things that actually just make me laugh. And if I can, if they work in the actual primary narrative, they go in the primary narrative. If they don't work in the primary narrative, readers of my books, I think, now know enough to know that they should go to the footnotes because that's where I stick the stories that are particularly funny or particularly off. B. I mean, one case in the case of demon of unrest was this guy. This guy's walking congressman, I believe, was walking in the vicinity of the Capitol in Washington on a dark night. This is before the Civil War. And he's molested by two guys, one who tries to stabs him through a folded edition of the Congressional Globe, which is, you know, the past version of what we call a Congressional Quarterly. So he isn't hurt by this display. He survives that. He pulls out a gun, shoots one of his attackers, punches another one and knocks him out. And he fights off this group of assailants in a very, very dramatic and very funny way, as if you expect him next to have a cannon come out of his coat and blow these guys away. The New York Times wrote a piece about that back in the day that was actually very funny. Now, we're not talking knee slapper here. I'm sure I could Count on something if I had more time. But that'll do it for now. That's in the footnotes.

[John Lovett]

I love that story because these guys think they're going to get away with screwing with this pro Lincoln guy and he just fucks him up.

[Chris Lord]

That's a good way to put it. That's a good way to put it. Totally, totally surprised.

[John Lovett]

Eric Larson, thank you so much for your time. I really appreciated Demon of Unrest. I really felt like it was helpful, a helpful bit of history that resonates with what we're going through right now. And as you said, to take. Take these kinds of people seriously, even if no one. Even if. Even if they are not serious people. So, Eric, thank you for your time.

[Chris Lord]

Sure, sure. Thank you.

[John Lovett]

All right. Thank you so much to Eric Larson. That's our show. Thank you to Sarah, thank you to Hallie, thank you to Kendra. We got 14 days. If you haven't signed up yet, go to votesafeamerica.com Sign up right now. Shots told me this on pod. Save America. They need bodies in Pennsylvania. They need bodies in Wisconsin. They need money in Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Texas, a bunch of other places. You can donate to our Senate fund. You can donate to our house fund. At VoteSave America, you can sign up for shifts to make calls and knock on doors. Now is the time. Early vote tells you nothing. Polls tell you nothing. Everybody's got to do everything. See you sluts on Saturday.

[Halle Kiefer]

SA.

[John Lovett]

Love it or Leave it is a crooked media production. It is written and produced by me, John Lovett and Lee Eisenberg. Kendra James is our executive producer, Chris Lord is our producer, and Kennedy Hill is our associate producer. Halle Kiefer is our head writer. Sarah Lazarus and Jocelyn Kaufman, Peter Miller, Alan Pierre, Will Miles and Mohana Del Shiki are our writers. Evan Sutton is our editor. Kyle Seglin and Charlotte Landis provide audio support. Stephen Colon is our audio engineer, and Milo Kim is our videographer. Our theme song is written and performed by sure Shore. Thanks to our designer, Bernardo Serna for creating and running all of our visuals, which you can't see because this is a podcast. And to our digital producers, David Toles, Claudia Shang, Mia kelman and Matt DeGroote for filming and editing video each week. So you can just love it or leave it.

[Erik Larson]

Perfect.

[John Lovett]

And I didn't order lunch. We're going to McDonald's. No, no, no, no, no McDonald's. Come on, people. In a statement released after Trump's visit. I'm gonna order a salad.

[Kendra James]

I just don't understand how you can eat the McDonald's. Like you have to go with him to get the McDonald's. You can't eat McDonald's after it's been transferred.

[Erik Larson]

I'm fine with that. Okay.

[Sarah Lazarus]

I'm fine. We'll go.

[John Lovett]

We'll all go. But also, yes, you can. We're four and a half minutes from the McDonald's.

[Kendra James]

That's too long. You gotta. You gotta eat it as soon as it comes out. As soon as Trump hands it.

[John Lovett]

Is it.

[I]

FedEx doesn't know your small business yet? Maybe it's handmade apparel for dogs. Maybe it's handmade apparel for cats. Maybe it's a third example I can't think of. What FedEx does know is that running a small business is hard enough without the hassle of complex shipping. That's why there's FedEx one rate. Did you know that with FedEx one rate you can ship your holiday packages cheaper than the post office? Send packages as low as 1450 for small boxes. Visit fedex.com onerate for details. Exclusions apply. Valid 10, 6, 24 through 11925. FedEx one rate. Two day retail shipping. One flat rate wherever the road may take you.

[John Lovett]

Discount tire and Continental Tire get you there safely with the perfect combination of style, comfort and price. Get a set of Continental tires at your local discount tire store or [e-mail] Discount Tire. Let's get you taken care of.