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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everyone. Welcome to this week's episode of Lunch Therapy. I'm your host, unlicensed lunch therapist Adam Roberts. Well, we've got a very special Thanksgiving week episode for you. One of my all time favorite food writers has always been Amanda Hesser, specifically for her book Cooking for Mr. Latte, which was one of the first food books that I've ever read. And if you haven't read it, I would say go out right now and buy a copy because it's one of the most entertaining and useful books about food you can find. It's about her courtship with New Yorker writer Tad Friend. And in today's session, we talk all about that book and her relationship to it.
- [00:35]
B
I do not go back and read that book because I feel like it
- [00:38]
A
would pain me how she got into writing.
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B
Also an introvert. So I think there's something about the page, you know, writing it rather than saying it, is more comfortable for me
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A
and what it's like cooking with her family on Thanksgiving.
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B
My mom is, like, known for, like, she'll. If she has a cooking question, she'll ask my sister, not me.
- [00:58]
A
I should also say Amanda Hester, before we get to this, is the author of the New York Times Cookbook, and she's the co founder and CEO of Food52, which in 2019 was valued at $100 million. So it's a huge honor to have her on this podcast. And without any further ado, here's my lunch therapy session with Amanda Hesser. Well, Amanda, you are the guest. I am most excited. I can't. I hope my other guests aren't listening to this because you are my white white whale. You are the guest I've always wanted to have on my podcast. So thank you for coming on Lunch Therapy.
- [01:33]
B
Oh, my gosh, I am so happy to be here. And I just thinking, like, we've known each other for so many years and it's like, it's so nice to still be in touch and to be like, I mean, thanks to social media, like, you're able to follow each other. And so, like, when I saw you're moving back to New York, I was like, super psyched. And anyway, I just. It's also just been so cool to like, see your career flourish and.
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A
Wow.
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B
So I'm happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.
- [01:56]
A
Thank you. And ditto. Right back at you. I mean, talk about flourish. I mean, it's so funny. I tell the story of, like, when you started Food52, you were very kind and you had me come over to Your house to do an asparagus making video. And I remember thinking, because I was such a. I'm such a fan of your writing. And I remember thinking, what is this crazy website that Amanda is doing? Like, this is so weird.
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B
And.
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A
And now it's like this gigantic thing. So it's, like, so cool to me that you had this vision. And I guess I'm curious, like, did you know from the very beginning that it would grow to become what it did? Or did you have your doubts? You know, too? I guess.
- [02:33]
B
I mean, you always have doubts when you start something, right? I think there's like, that's a healthy part of the experience. It kind of keeps you sharp. Right. And on your toes. But sure, I think Meryl and I might just for. For listeners. I started the company with my friend Meryl Stubbs. And yeah, I mean, we, you know, we did it because we really felt like we wanted to create this place and this world that we thought, like, would be helpful to people and selfishly would be helpful to us too. And, you know, like, we wanted a place where we could meet other cooks and get great content and find, discover new products and all. All the things. And I think it wasn't so much like we had an idea of like, oh, we'll get, you know, this big, or, you know, a specific size or specific reach. I just think we felt like we wanted to. We felt this. The. Like this belonged in the world. We wanted to be the ones who built it. And we felt like it was something that could appeal to a lot of people. And so if we did it right, it would become a big company, what it would look like. Exactly. We, of course, didn't really know. We just fet. We had a sort of general. We knew the vibe that we wanted. I know that sounds so squishy, but it actually is really important, I think, in. Especially when it comes to consumer products and consumer media that is, you know, about people's lives and how, you know, vibe is, you know, what you're trying to kind of like, pull together the feeling you want to have. And so we knew the feeling we wanted to have.
- [04:09]
A
Well, it's funny because I'm rethinking my question to you, and I think what I was trying to say is, like, I thought of you as a writer, and I know you as a writer, and as now, like, as a writer and being married to a filmmaker, I feel like creative people that I know in general are not great with business and the idea that you can be a great writer and then Also build an amazing business, to me, almost feels like counterintuitive because it feels like the brain that goes into writing is sort of, like, loose and kind of just, like things kind of flow in and out, and then the brain that goes into business is very organized. So I'm curious about that transition of going from writing about food to building a business and having to think about business. And was that always there for you, or was that something that you had to learn?
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B
Well, it's funny, because I became a writer with having almost no experience in writing.
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A
Okay.
- [04:59]
B
You know, I was something that I kind of fell into or leapt into and figured, you know, like, kind of leapt into the pool and figured out how to swim. You know, I studied finance and economics in college.
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A
Interesting.
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B
And I didn't. I really actually, like, dreaded my English classes growing up. I know. I really. I read so few books before I graduated college or high school or college, and I. You know, I just wasn't. I always thought of myself as a math person, and. But then I became a writer, and I had to figure it out. And I did have some kind of. I must have had some kind of natural storytelling ability that I was able to kind of build on. And I learned as I went much, much in the way that many of us learn to cook. You kind of get in the kitchen, maybe someone shows you a little bit, but unless you go to cooking school, you kind of have to fumble around and find your way and find your voice, so to speak. And I think that is, in some ways, I think that helped me in writing because I didn't have the limitations or restrictions that sometimes come with knowing a lot about something. Like, I just kind of wrote from the heart. I really, you know, I had to write in my own voice because I didn't know any other way. And so, you know, I think I. You could say that I have approached my whole career in a similar way and that I tend to follow my gut, follow my heart and what I'm interested in, and then have the. You could say confidence. But I feel like that's too strong a word. Maybe it's more like I have the courage to risk having to figure it out.
- [06:40]
A
Well, you're talking to an amateur gourmet who has always felt that way. I mean, it's funny that I've always felt such a kinship with you. And I think that's probably why. It's just like jumping in and just learning as you swim, I guess, like, just sort of.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Forcing yourself to do it.
- [06:55]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And that's really what Meryl and I both did. You know, I did spend a year before Food52 trying to start a different company that had nothing to do with food. And it. By the end of the first. The first year, I sort of spent all my savings. But I had learned that, oh, this world of, like, new ideas and making things happen and creating something from scratch really appealed to me. And I got the bug and I met a lot of people from, like, you know, you know, computer engineers to investors. And I felt like, oh, I started to get a lay of the land of, like, how you can create a company. And the company that I was trying to start, I also also learned was not really a viable idea. It was. It was an interesting. It was a very interesting concept, but not a business to build around. And so while that experience in the moment was quite painful to discover and go through, it helped me realize that, okay, everyone in this, in Even people with MBAs, if you start a business, you're really just having to find your way every day and problem solve. You know, I was talking to Danny Meyer recently, and he said that it was his father or his grandfather had said to him, you know, business is problems. And it's so true. And it's like, you really just. You have to like problem solving. You have to really get energized by that and excited by that. And I happen to be a person who likes solving problems. And so in some ways, I think my temperament and sensibility, like, kind of lent itself to starting a business without any real business experience and finding my way.
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A
Well, I think one of the. It feels like the big innovation of Food52, and correct me if I'm wrong, but is the way that products are integrated with the content in a way that's not. It doesn't feel like you're being tricked in any way. It's like these are actually items that the people at Food52 really like. And you can buy these items. And that is up. That's next to an article that you might want to read. But it's not, you know, it's commerce. It's art, I guess it's like art and commerce together. Which is interesting based on your background, that coming from writing into business. But it feels like that was the. Maybe. Is that the innovation of food 52 in a way is the way that you integrated selling, you know, products with actually having articles and things for people to read.
- [09:24]
B
I think there were a few things that we were innovating on. I think that was one of them, was Bringing these worlds together. There was something in kind of the traditional, I guess, consumer products that had kept, you know, you know, media is a consumer product. And I, I know it sounds like a kind of business school way to talk about it, but it is a consumer experience and think, you know, a product that you want to read and learn from or get inspired by. And so. But that world was always kept quite separate from anything related to transacting and buying an actual physical product. And so it's not a crazy innovation. It was more just a, it grew out of our own personal frustration of feeling like if we wanted to have friends. Just to take a very simple example, I want to have some friends over in a couple of weeks. I'm going to need to plan my menu, figure out what I'm like, what serving pieces I need, what glassware. I might have some questions I need answered. And, and you could get all of that stuff. But it meant you had to be quite resourceful and had to go to different, lots of different sources for each. You might have to go to, you know, a cookbook or a recipe site for your recipes or maybe multiple. You might have to go to a store like a Williams Sonoma or something more kind of boutique shop in your hometown to get, you know, the napkins that you wanted. And you know, you just, you ended up kind of like having to run all over the place. And not all of those places felt like, like they had a coherent and unified like aesthetic or point of view that you, that you related to. And it just felt like why can't these things live together and make our lives easier? Why don't. And the beauty of the Internet is that technology allows you to do so many of the, like to combine things. And so we just felt like technology would allow us to at least test this out. Can we get, can we create this world where it's comprehensive and fully supportive as opposed to something that's very focused on one area and then leaves you at sea for the rest on your own. And so that was one and then the other. I think another thing that we were, we felt like was innovative was that we could see this. It was really inspired by the, the huge shift in the blog world thanks to people like you who started food blogs, who were not traditional media person, did not people who did not, you know, work at all the sort of name brand media companies, but had really interesting things to say, were super knowledgeable, had great writing voices and decided I'm going to create my, decided they were going to create their own platform and you remember there was explosion of blogs and we just thought it's super cool coming from traditional media. You know, we, we've been in a position of being the broadcasters. We would, you know, broadcast out here is. And we were very, we were the authorities. Right. It was here's the recipes you should be paying attention to. And there was no conversation, there was no interaction. It was just like we were just putting it out into the world and kind of assuming that people would like it and, and not knowing if they did or not unless they wrote a letter to the New York Times. I got lots of letters, but not everyone would do that obviously. And it just felt like, wow, you know, we can see the landscape shifting and yet we felt like the people who write blogs are the most passionate ones. The ones who are and who have the sort of right life circumstances that allow them to, you know, right in a, on a regular cadence to, you know, they know how to formulate a proper recipe. And off as, you know, like food blogs. There's a lot of pressure to like be a great photographer.
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A
Oh, I had to learn. I used to use flash pictures on my blog and that was terrible.
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B
Yeah. And then like, and you know, we didn't have the iPhone with its filters and all that stuff. And so, you know, we thought, well, okay, if there's this many people who are creating really like well designed, well thought through blogs, think of how many more people that next ring of talented cooks and you know, people who have deep knowledge about food who have no platform for it because they are maybe lawyers during the day or they're not good photographers or they're you know, like they have other life circumstances where they can't dedicate as much time or they don't have the full rap, you know, full suite of, of skills that you need to have a successful blog. Can't. Can we pull them together and show the world that there is great content to be had from your neighbors, your people around you, like people who are not professional media people but who have a lot of incredibly valuable stuff to share. So that was to us, we felt like you could create coming from a place like the New York Times, where this is very high quality content that we were creating every day. Could we create a, an equivalent level of content by creating a platform that curated community user generated content you can do. There was, there were user generated content sites but we felt like they were a mess. They were like a place where it just felt like a mosh pit of content. There was no curation, there was no Sense of like the community coming together and saying like this recipe is really great and this person is an amazing cook or you know, this person is an expert on barbecue. And we, we felt like if you could use technology to create a system that, that encouraged community and participation at lots of different levels and ultimately created a product of like a, you know, a, a database of recipes that was really useful because the best content rose to the top.
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A
Yeah. And it's so funny cause on the Internet now, and by the way, we have to get to your lunch. Cause this is your therapy session, by the way. But you know, now when I google for like anything like Thanksgiving stuff and cranberry sauce, the things that come up now are so untrustworthy or just so sketchy for me. I mean like, who are like, what is this? Whereas now if I go to Food52, I mean there are just like a small handful of websites I'll go to now that I know will have good recipes if I search on them. And so that trustworthiness is so valuable.
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B
Of course, like there, there continue to be great databases of recipes from traditional media like the New York Times cooking site. I mean that is not user generated but is super high quality. And they get, you know, they get great, you know, food creators from all over to contribute as well as their own team and you know, bon appetit being another one. So, so of course those still exist and I think those are incredibly trustworthy. We were just trying to kind of add on to those existing models by saying like those are, those are, that's content by people who are professional who like, who create the content as part of their careers. Then there's this pool of people who are incredibly talented who just didn't have a place to be celebrated. And we wanted to be that place.
- [16:51]
A
And then you also. I have so many more questions, but I do want to ask you about your lunch. But I was going to say you've also launched a lot of people who otherwise wouldn't have been launch, like by giving them that platform, which is so cool. I mean, I'm thinking of Mrs. Wheelbarrow, all those, you know, personnel, food 52 personalities that have gone on to great careers. So that's such a cool thing.
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B
Erin McDowell.
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A
Yeah, she's amazing. I'm. I actually was on a flight flying somewhere and it must be Food52. It must be on Delta or something.
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B
And I watched Delta. Yeah.
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A
And I watched all of her pie making tutorials and it was like the best flight ever. Okay, Amanda, this is going to be A therapy session based on what you had for lunch today. So tell us, what did you have for lunch?
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B
Okay, I have. Can I start with the fact that I actually don't like lunch generally?
- [17:39]
A
Fine, yes. There's no judgment here.
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B
This is part of the therapy. I want to confess. Not a big lunch person. I used to be a not very big breakfast person and a bigger and a More of a lunch person. But I've grown into a. Like, I like to have breakfast, and I tend to be sort of snacky at lunch, and then I like to have a dinner with dessert. And so today I feel like all I've eaten is, like, Is starch. Today I. I had for breakfast. I went. I met someone for breakfast at the Crosby Hotel. So I had eggs and this really delicious hash brown and toast. And then I went to the office, and then I had pastries and as some kind of pistachio lemon bread. And then I came home and I was still, miraculously, still hungry, I think, because I did Barry's Boot Camp yesterday, and I had a. Like a Persian rice dish that had barberries and almonds and. Kefir lime leaves and bay leaves and parsley and some other. And lemon. Lemon peel in it. It was. And saffron. It was delicious. And I had that with. On the side, a. And I didn't make this, by the way. I just. I was. And then I had on the side, like, a cucumber, tomato, onion, kind of salady thing. It was delicious.
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A
I love that you say you don't like lunch, and then your lunch sounds better than, like, 99% of the people's lunches that are listening to this. No, that sounded amazing. Wait, how did you come upon this salad? I mean, or this rice dish?
- [19:22]
B
Someone. I. Yes, sorry. Someone who I know made it, and it was delicious. And so that, to me is. But actually, you know, when I'm at the. When I. When I go to the office, my. My. My dream lunch. Not my dream lunch, but the lunch I often actually have is. I really like to have salad and French fries.
- [19:44]
A
Oh, interesting. Okay. So it's like a little. A little virtue and then a little not. I mean, this is bad because it feels food shouldn't. We shouldn't attach judgment to food. But it sounds like a little naughty, a little nice, a little, you know,
- [19:57]
B
something like, clean and then something that's kind of like richer and, like, crunchy or. And, yeah, sort of more savory. So I. Yeah, that's. That was my lunch today. I hope that that passes muster.
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A
Podcast no, it's great. It's. I mean, the idea here is now we kind of use that as a prompt to kind of learn more about you.
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B
Sorry. And then I had Sam Pellegrino and. Which I'm kind of addicted to. And then I also had dried mangoes, which I love.
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A
This is a huge lunch. I mean, you. You're someone who doesn't like lunch. You've had a lot of things at lunch and for breakfast, I guess. Yeah. Well, you know, it's really interesting is like, as your lunch therapist, I've noticed. And this speaks to your abilities as a writer and probably a business person. This real attention to detail, which was like, really telling me specifically, like, what was in the Persian rice salad. And then what. And I. I'm curious, like, have you always been so detail oriented, like, your whole life? Like, were you. Or maybe another way to put it is like a perfectionist.
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B
I'm a Virgo. That kind of explains most of it.
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A
Yeah, I don't know what that means.
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B
I like to have clean hands. I like to. I like to write lists. I like. Yeah, I'm. I'm. I always. And of course, like, like all perfectionists, I'm kind of a failed perfectionist because there is no such thing as perfect. And so I tend to be very detail oriented in certain areas and then other areas not at all. And so it's, It's. It's very inconsistent.
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A
No, that's really interesting. I mean, it's so funny because I'm thinking a lot about what you said about writing and how you were. Have a math brain and that you. But you sort of got into the world of writing, but it's not like you just got into the world of writing. And we're writing like a live journal. I mean, you got into the world of writing and you were writing for the premiere publication, like, basically the place everyone wanted to write for. So, I mean, did you mathematically, like, study, like, what makes for good writing? And like, say, you know, I must have X, Y, Z and I must have a strong lead and I must, you know, like, was there any, like. No. She's shaking her head. No.
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B
No, I didn't. I wish I could say. Or maybe I don't wish I could say. I really. I was winging it. And I did. I did. When I sort of my last year of college, when I started getting really interested in food. And then when I moved to Europe to study, I started reading writers like M.F.K. fisher. I started reading, you know, the Times food section. I started Reading just, you know, kind of some of the classic food writers. And Beverly Rude. And I. And I worked for a woman named Ann Willen who ran.
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A
I have her book. Yeah.
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B
Yeah. I mean, she's written actually, like, 30 books. And actually, I helped and I. What. One of the things that got me interested in writing was working for her and helping her out with one of her cookbooks. And. But he had an incredible cookbook library, like something. Several thousand cookbooks, and many of them very old. And so I really. I got exposed to this really broad array of food writing, and I found it to be this kind of exciting world that had opened up to me. So I think it was more that I was consuming it, not thinking of it as like, oh, I want to emulate this writing, or it was more just. I was really enjoying reading and for the first time and found myself. And I think I found myself drawn to writers like M.F.K. fisher, who had a strong voice and a strong point of view and were not afraid to share it. And that was one of the things I always loved about Molly o', Neill, who wrote for the Times on that time. And so I think that just probably, you know, through osmosis, you know, kind of influenced me when I started writing on my own. And I've always been kind of like an opinionated person. So I. I think. And I. But I'm also an introvert, so I think there's something about the page, you know, writing it rather than saying it is more comfortable for me.
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A
And if you're somebody who likes to work on details, it's like you can sit there with a sentence and rework it and rework it in a way that you can't when you're being verbal. So I. I totally. I relate to that, too. But I was going to bring up my favorite. My favorite food book of all time, which is cooking for Mr. Latte, which I just featured on my new. I started this video series on my Instagram.
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B
I had to repost it, and it. My phone wouldn't repost it anyway, so I'm so sorry.
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A
Well, it's funny.
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B
A note to say thank you because it was so nice.
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A
Well, it's so funny because I made the video. Part of what I was saying in the video is that what I love so much about this book, which is, for those who are listening, if you haven't read Cooking for Mr. Latte, you must. But what I love so much about it is that you're not afraid to make yourself unlikable on some parts of it. Like, you're. And I played it for Craig, and he's like, that's kind of insulting. And I was like. He's like, are you sure you're not insulting Amanda Hesser? I was like, no, I think she knows what she's doing. There's chapters in here, like, where, like, you go to Italy with your grandmother and she's not getting it. Like, she's not into the food or, like, the way you eat there, and then you get frustrated. But I feel like the way you present yourself, it's sort of like you're aware that you're. How would I phrase this? I feel like you're conscious of the dynamics at play and you being sort of, quote, unquote, like a food snob or like somebody who's fixated on food, whereas your grandmother is somebody who came from the Depression, who's not. Doesn't want to eat three courses. And so when I say, like, unlikable, I guess what I mean is, like, you don't necessarily have to make yourself like the hero of the story. It's sort of like you can be the butt of the joke in a way, right?
- [25:50]
B
I mean, my. My. My Mr. Latte, my. Who's my now husband, was the hero. And so, yes, I mean, I did, as a writer, understand that. Well, there were a couple things at play, but I. Which I will explain, but one was definitely that I understood when I started this that ultimately he was the hero. And that I, you know, like, that even though I came. I came at this as kind of like the food expert, and he seemed like he was not clued into food, like, that we were going to learn from each other. And, you know, that some of his. What seemed like kind of klutzy habits or cluelessness about food was actually endearing. And. And that, in fact, you know, foodies can be really overbearing and kind of dull, frankly. And so I was probably, you know, I was, I think, knowingly, as a writer, kind of exaggerating things that were part of me, but probably playing them up, you know, to a higher degree in order to show the contrast, which is, I think, is something, you know, you do as a writer when you're shaping character. And. But I also do think that it's funny because I. I do think when I moved to New York, it took me, like, five years to really like New York. I really didn't like it very much.
- [27:10]
A
Where did you move from?
- [27:12]
B
I moved from. While I was living in France. I moved back home to my mom's house. In Pennsylvania, in the woods, wrote my book. And then I briefly lived in la, like, for literally two months. And then. And then, like, moved to New York for this job. And I knew no one. I had one friend in New York and she worked as a night nurse in the, you know, and at New York Hospital. So we never. We were on opposite schedules and never saw each other. I didn't know anyone. And I had this new job where I was, like, suddenly a journalist at the New York Times and having to figure out what I was doing. So. And I wanted to do well, so I was working around the clock. And then, you know, and just New York is not an easy city to you all the time, even with. Even when you have a good job. You know, it's just. It's like, it can be brutal. And I was feeling it. And so I think it. And the New York Times is a competitive place, and I think it. I think. And also, like, there were other things in my life that I was like, I was. I was not in a happy place necessarily. And so I do think actually it was a. It was a period in my life where I was a little harder edged and. And I think that came out in my writing and where I was. I wasn't so afraid to be opinionated, but I think, you know, I look. Sure. I don't know if you feel this way when you look back at your writing, but sometimes I look back and I feel like, you know, I wish I had toned it down or just,
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A
oh, my God, half the things I wrote on my blog, I wish I'd toned down. Yeah, for sure, 100%.
- [28:38]
B
Yeah. We're just had, you know, and this is just something that. It takes years of living, too. But, like, I wish I had lived more and I would have seen things differently. But then, of course, that's sort of the beauty of youthful hubris, is like, you don't know and. And so you're exposing yourself when you're writing. You're writing personally at that age. And, you know, I think there were some great things that came out of that. And also, like, of course, I, you know, I don't. I do not go back and read that book because I feel like it would pain me. But. Yeah, so I just think it's. It's just funny because I look back when I totally understood what you were saying when you were explaining this on Instagram, that I myself is unlikable, but I also kind of, like, laughed because, like, in high school, I. I was voted most popular, like, Persona that was actually quite unlikable. It's not that different from, like, kind of what happens on Instagram today. Like, we all have our own kind of social media facade or, you know, even if you try not to do that, there's still an element of it that you're kind of presenting a version of yourself, not your full self. And I think that's exactly what was happening here.
- [29:47]
A
But there are some rants in your book that I still like, live by. Including your rant about sharing plates at restaurants, which is so funny because that trend, because I think you go to craft in the book, and it's like everyone's sharing their meal and you didn't. You basically say you don't want someone like, getting sausage flavor on your fish or whatever, you know, And I feel like every restaurant now, it's like, you know, let me explain how we do things here. You know, we share, you know, everything's to share. And that you like, like your own individual entree, which I think is the next trend. I feel like everyone wants to go back to that. Like, we all want our own entrees and our own.
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B
Yes.
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A
So I feel like you were ahead of the curve with that.
- [30:24]
B
Well, I. I will not. I will take no credit because I think it came from. I had a lunch with Julia Child, of all people, at Ocean in New York, and someone at the table suggested switching plates, and she was like, nope, we will very opposed to it. And I loved her for that because. Yeah, it just. I think. Well, I think also, even, yes, you're getting to taste more of the chef's food, but ultimately you're not really fully, like, getting to fully experience what the chef has created if you're like, by passing it along. And so, yes, I, I do. Yes, there are, of course, there are certain cuisines where you do. Their sharing is kind of the norm. But I also, I do. I don't know, I find that more and more when we go out with friends, people aren't passing, which I think is a good.
- [31:15]
A
I have a friend who. She and her husband do havesies every meal, like, every time we go out, they each negotiate who's going to get which entree, and they cut it in half, and then they each do half and they switch, which is kind of cute. Well, I mean, not to belabor this one subject, but I'm curious about the aspect of your. This book, but also your other writing that was, you know, autobiographical and that wrote about people in your life and what the. What the consequences of that were for you and if that's something that eventually, like, you shifted away from. Because I feel like the writing that you do now for Food52 and like the newsletter and stuff is very, like, fun to read, but it's like you're not necessarily, like, going into like, deep personal relationship stuff in the same. Quite the same way. So I'm curious what that, what that was like for you to write a book about your family and all that. And if that was something that you.
- [32:08]
B
Again, I, I would, I might do that again if I felt like there was something interesting to say. It's a danger when you write about, of course, when you're writing about people, you know, but even when you're. I remember actually I wrote a story in the New York Times Magazine about this woman in San Francisco who would cook or excuse me, bake thousands and thousands of cookies every holiday. She, she, for. She celebrated Christmas and she would send these boxes of cookies to like, hundreds of people. And they were like so many different kinds. It was like this hugely ambitious project that would take her months. And I thought it was like the coolest thing. I thought, you know, I, I felt like I wrote with the reverence that I felt toward her and I, but I, you know, she was also a very particular person speaking, but she was very detail oriented and kind of had everything just so. And I, I felt like it was important to kind of establish her character in this piece. And I learned later many, you know, year. Actually I think it was even like years later, just through her son, that I had deeply offended her.
- [33:14]
A
Really?
- [33:15]
B
Yes. And she never, I never heard from her. And after that piece, and I, I really thought I wrote the piece to celebrate her because I thought it was just this miraculous thing that she had pulled off year after year and her whole family was involved. But, you know, it's, you know, it's risky when you write about people and, and maybe people perceive themselves in a certain way and you're proceed. You know, nothing is the actual absolute truth. Right. Because all individual's perception. But yeah, sure, I think there were a couple of people in the writing of cooking for Mr. Latte. You know, it was originally this column called Food Diary in the New York Times Magazine and before it became the book and there were a couple of columns where I heard from people who were not happy. And I kind of learned along the way. And that actually helped me, I think, when it came to writing, because the book has a lot more chapters in it than were ever in Food Diary. And so, yeah, I became, I think you want to be mindful without, like, watering down what you have to say. Right. I think it's a, It's a fine line, but I think, you know, Especially with people. Yeah, it's like, life is long. I, I think that I would, I don't think that I, like, terribly offended anyone, like, but I probably annoyed some people. And I, It's a good question. I mean, I really haven't thought, like, would I do it differently? I don't know. I, I, I think I am a different kind of writer. I think, you know, just as you become a different kind of cook over the years, you. I've become writer. And it's not that I've avoided writing personally. It's more just the nature of the kinds of writing in the, in the kind of platforms that I'm writing in don't kind of welcome personal. I mean, I wrote a, I did write a series that maybe three people read. What meant a lot to me, actually, over, like, a couple of years ago on Food52.about. I think what did we call it was like Space Invaders or something like that. We had a. It was a series about all the different infestations that we've had in our house because, you know, we were covering a broader spectrum of food. I'm sorry, excuse me, of home as well as food. And I felt like something that people never write about is, like, these things, like, you know, clothing mods and, you know, we had, we had a squirrel issue. We, After Hurricane Sandy, we had a rat issue. We've had, We've had everything. Oh, no apartment that I live, that I'm right in, in here. And, and, and they were dark with bedbugs. I mean, we've had very dark periods of, of dealing with these things and how they kind of affected our lives. And so I wrote a series about that, which actually was personal because it wasn't really just about, like, the infestation and how to get rid of it, even though, I mean, I tried to write it in a kind of light and humorous way, but it was, these were. It was definitely extremely personal.
- [36:09]
A
I'm going to check that out. I don't know how I missed that, but I'm curious. Now. We mentioned before we started that your kids are going to college next year. And I'm curious, like, are either of them interested in writing or cooking the way that you and Tad are?
- [36:24]
B
That room is to be seen. Our daughter Addison has been writing poetry since she was very young, and so she still does that. She does some songwriting, but she hasn't you know, no, neither of them has really gotten into any longer form. And. But, you know, going through the college application experience, there's, you know, a lot of emphasis, obviously, on college essays. And so our son was just saying the other day, actually, that. That having gone through this, it's gotten him to the point where he now really can. Feels like he can just sit down and write something, as opposed to feeling like it's like dreaded assignment of, like the right 600 words on a topic. Now he just feels he understands how to, like, really just from the repetition of doing it, which, as all professional writers know, like, that is part of it is just the discipline of, like, sitting down, just writing. And so that's been. That was sort of the first time where I thought, like, oh, like, I don't think he'll become a writer, but I thought, oh, I think maybe he's starting have an appreciation for it and a comfort with it. That makes me happy because I think it's such a. An important way of expressing yourself.
- [37:36]
A
Well, it's funny because I had Dwight Garner, the, you know, the book critic who I think you just did an event with. Yes, I did, but I was talking about reading his wife's work and just like, how loaded that is to be, like, the book critic for the New York Times, giving you feedback on your novel or whatever. But I could also imagine for your kids, like, having such an incredibly talented parents, it must be intimidating for them to show you guys what they've written. Or does that not occur to them?
- [38:03]
B
Well, there's definitely already a hierarchy has been established because my husband, for anyone's listening, is. He's a staff writer at the New Yorker and has been there for over almost, I guess, 25 years now. And he writes really long form pieces. He writes sort of, you know, 8 to 12,000 word pieces, and they're deeply reported. And he's a wonderful writer. And, you know, I obviously have done a lot of writing in my whole career, but when it came to writing college essays, they went to dad. Wow, okay, we want dad. Dad's, you know, stamp of approval.
- [38:42]
A
Are there essays, 8,000 words or.
- [38:45]
B
No, it's. I thought the college essays would be much longer, but they're actually. The common app is like 600 words, which, you know, that's hard. It's hard to write. In fact, when I was at the New York Times, they used. They had. They felt like word counts were getting too high, and so they created something called the Brevity Award. And every month they would award somebody for the best story done in the shortest amount of shortest number of words. And so I think in a way it's maybe it is a really good test. Like, can you say something really meaningful in 600 words? And then the supplemental apps are, supplemental essays are only like 250 words.
- [39:26]
A
Really. That's like a tweet. Best tweet. You just have to do a tweet to get into college. Well, I'm curious to pivot for a second back to the business side of things. I'm just curious like, you know, with your insight all those years ago when you started Food52 about like where things were headed. Now we're in 2023 and I'm just curious, like, how do you see the landscape now of food media? And you know, for me, from my perspective, it really feels like it's shifting into video, like TikTok reels, like that kind of stuff, but on a bigger, bigger. I mean, are you getting ready to do like virtual reality food 52, like, like where do you see things headed?
- [40:06]
B
That's. Well, it's funny because I was thinking like, where, if, if you feel like it's all moving into video, where do, what do you think is next after that? Because to me that's always the question, right? Like we saw video coming and I don't, I, I don't have a, I don't have a crisp answer to it, I'm afraid. And I do think I'm fascinated by the substack phenomenon that is a. Such a strong juxtaposition, obviously at a much smaller scale to something like TikTok. There's something about, I mean, the beauty of food, right, is that expressing it in all these different formats, it's sort of pleasing in everyone. It can be. Right. It can be satisfying, could be inspiring. You can learn, you know, But I do think this number, like, you know, especially there's like a lot of really like kind of big influencers who have their own substacks. And you say they're doing that to monetize. Of course, yes, they probably are. But I think there's also, there's just something about, is longer form expression in food that's like important to creators. And so while I think video is clearly going to be the dominant format that people are creating in and it's, it's more, you could, you could say it's probably like more inclusive to like a broader group of people to create because it's like, you know, short, it's fast. You don't have to like do it. You know, you don't have to sit down and write a long, you know, substack or whatever with, with images or what have you. But I do think it's interesting though that even given the huge magnetic pull toward Instagram and TikTok short form video, there's this sprouting up of. Of kind of longer form sub stack. But I also think, I mean the cookbook industry is such an interesting barometer of you know, it continues to be a really important validation creators to get published and an important way of expressing your. I'll use the word vibe again. You're, you're like cooking your aesthetic, your point of view, your everything on a page in a way that you can't do in a short form video or even a long form YouTube video. And so I think it's. We're, we happen to be in an industry where all of these formats kind of are. Continue to be relevant. I think it's. But I guess I always believe that there's going to be another. There's something there, something will follow TikTok. Like I, you know, since we started Food52, when we started Food52, Facebook existed. Instagram did not. Sorry, Facebook existed. Twitter was basically had just been born, you know, two years earlier. And so we actually did a lot of our social media on Twitter in the first couple of years and then Instagram and then Instagram like it kind of like a slow ramp up and then it exploded and then there was Snapchat and I remember everyone was saying you've got to get on Snapchat. I just felt like this is not, this doesn't feel like, like the right thing for us. And also because we, you have to decide when you're running a company like where are you going to put your resources and you can't every platform and in fact we did but to that same point. So we, we ignored Snapchat which I think was the right call at the time, but we were also ignoring Facebook and I think that was the wrong call. So what we have found is actually we have incredible. We went back to Facebook after a while after we kind of got our sea legs on Instagram Gram. We went back to Facebook because we felt like we saw there's just incredible engagement on Facebook. It is obviously a different demographic age wise generally, but it's a really, it's a really excited and engaged group and so it's important for a company like ours. And now I think we're trying to find like we've, we've grown A lot on talk, but we're sort of trying to find our way. But I think there will surely be another. I just don't know what that's going to look like. I don't believe it's going to be an AI or VR or whatever, like necessarily, but it might be something combo. And I think that, you know, like, it's always. I think it's. All of these evolutions are really interesting. They only cause my. Me stress when I think about how do we. How do we keep up from a company perspective on like in. For serving them all well, because you have to kind of pick your bets.
- [44:51]
A
It's funny, AI. I mean, it's so insidious now that when, literally when I started this zoom call with you, it said, would you like an AI summary of your conversation when this is over? I was like, that is so creepy.
- [45:03]
B
Did you hit. Yes.
- [45:04]
A
No, I should have done it.
- [45:06]
B
Interesting to see what. What it.
- [45:09]
A
Yeah, well, next time I'll do it. Well, that's interesting. I mean, it's. I. I kind of get a sense that things are fracturing in a way in that, like, people are finding their own niche audiences. And like, I feel with my substack that I'm writing for my own little bubble. Like the people who like amateur Gourmet and then people who are reading, you know, Alicia Kennedy substack or people who like Alicia. And it's like we're all kind of like splitting off into little sectors. Whereas I feel like something like 352 is still about community. It's about like this large umbrella that everyone's welcome to be a part of. So it is kind of these two systems that. That are going on at the same time where it's like micro content for, you know, little niche communities. And then there's like still the larger platforms that serve everybody.
- [45:51]
B
So it's kind of a re. Replay of the blog thing, right?
- [45:55]
A
Totally.
- [45:55]
B
You know, and maybe substack is just a format that more people can kind of keep up, more creators can keep up with and, and gives them more ownership, like liberal ownership. Right. If they're, if they charge, I don't. I think it's like, like everything feels terrible in media right now in terms of the industry, but I also feel like these, these kind of churning moments are also when new, great new ideas get formed. So I'm always kind of feeling like there's a. I feel optimism, like a layer of optimism, you know, that I kind of. It's like my life raft.
- [46:41]
A
I'm curious. Speaking of media and different forms. I meant to ask you because I have cooking for Mr. Latte in front of me. Did you ever attempt to turn this into a TV show? Like Sex and the City?
- [46:51]
B
So cbs, did they. So they bought rights to a pilot and I, you know, whatever, advised on the consultant on the. On the pilot script. There was a really great writer. He got, like, super dumbed down and it was like, to a painful point. And they made the pilot with who.
- [47:12]
A
Who played you?
- [47:14]
B
Oh, oh, my gosh, I'm forgetting.
- [47:16]
A
I'm dying to know.
- [47:18]
B
But it was, it was. I never saw it. They wouldn't. So it never was made. And they just have a rule that they don't share the pilots. I'm sure someday it'll, like, emerge on, like, the Dark Web or not, but I. I can't. I still. It like, blows my mind that I have not been allowed to see it, but it probably is saving me, like, from pain because, you know, they. For whatever legal reasons, they just felt like they couldn't base anyone. They had to make. They had to change everybody's identities. But in doing so, you kind of lost the essence of the story.
- [47:54]
A
Was it still called whatever cooking for Mr. Latte? Like, was that the name of the show?
- [47:57]
B
Oh, they changed his name to Professor Frappuccino. And I'm not kidding you, Professor Cappuccino.
- [48:05]
A
That's hilarious. Oh, my God. But I have to, like, we have to find this. This. This could be like. This could be the future of media.
- [48:13]
B
Yeah, maybe. You know how to find these things. You know how to think.
- [48:15]
A
Yeah, I. I thought that Amazon was going to take, like, pilots that never got aired and put them on Amazon, but I don't think that ever happened. So that would be amazing.
- [48:24]
B
Wow, I'm so glad I asked that idea anyway. But it was a fun, like, little. It was a fun little taste of Hollywood.
- [48:30]
A
Yes. Did you go to the taping? Oh, no. You didn't see it. You didn't see it. You ready? You read the pilot, though?
- [48:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I read various versions and had input and no. And I got paid, so. That was awesome. I was like. It was much better than writing rates.
- [48:44]
A
Well, not to keep pushing this, but what was the plot of the pilot episode of Mr. Of Professor Captain?
- [48:50]
B
I don't even remember. I'm so sorry. I would love to tell you, but I've like, I've erased. I've sort of like, you know, according to that all to, like, TV land failure.
- [49:03]
A
Oh, my God, Your kids would have gotten such a Kick out of it, though, if there was like a sitcom of like their parents that they could have watched. I mean, that, that's wild because how many people get. Because usually if it's like a sitcom happens, it's like a stand up comedian or like somebody adapts it themselves. But to have like your own life, like adapted into a sitcom just sounds wild to me.
- [49:20]
B
So that would be wacky. Yeah.
- [49:23]
A
I meant to ask, so how are your.
- [49:24]
B
I mean, are you still doing work for. Are you still working in tv?
- [49:29]
A
No, I pivoted. You know, TV is, It's a tough business to. You have to really, it's funny, ironically. You have to have the stomach for it. And as a food writer, I don't think I did. You have to be willing to get knocked down, dust yourself back off, get back up and do it over and over and over again. And I had a lot of really exciting projects that, like, I wrote a screenplay that was optioned by Netflix that Stephen Fry was attached to star in. I did like a pilot, the pilot that went out, but all these things, like, never materialized, much like your sitcom. And so it's like just that frustration of working on things that nobody was seeing. And even though you can make money doing that, like, you could literally live in LA and have a house and nobody will ever see your work, but you can just keep selling pilots and keep like. I just found that so joyless and pointless that I, I wanted to go back to food writing. So I, you know, got basically just pivoted back. I'm actually working on a novel right now about the food world. So I'm working with a new, new literary agent. I could tell you it's about a ghostwriter who's ghostwriting a celebrity's cookbook. So it's sort of like a little bit of, oh my gosh, fantastic culture. So I, you know, I feel like I'm able to use the, the storytelling skills that I learned from TV writing and then apply them to my knowledge of the food world and cooking. So I'm hoping I can find my own little niche of being a food novelist. Although there's other people who do that too now. So that's what I'm working on.
- [50:58]
B
That's so great.
- [50:59]
A
Thanks. I was going to ask you, I know that you guys just moved to new headquarters and can you tell us a little bit about where you're at now and what that's like?
- [51:08]
B
Sure, yeah. So we were in. We've had different offices over the years, and the office that we had in Chelsea in Manhattan just, we outgrew and during COVID and we, we needed a space where we felt like that really allowed us to focus on like what I think of as like the three core things that we do, which is like creating, gathering and entertaining. And you know, we could see that post Covid people weren't going to necessarily need an office in a conventional way or, or in the fully conventional way that it had been. It would, so that people wouldn't want to come to an office to work, but they would have a different cadence and, and such. And so we wanted to create a space that really was like a place where our team could gather, where our creative team had like all the right light, the kitchens, the studios to really do their thing and create the great content that they do and the great photography and then that we could entertain and do events. Because one of the, the constraints we had in our old office was that we liked, we really, you know, as a community driven company that's focused, you know, on food gathering together and, and, and breaking bread together is a, is a part of who we are. And while we, we made it work in our old space, we often, like if we had an event, we'd have to tell everyone to like leave the office by four so that we could transform it into an event space. And that's not obviously conducive to a happy team. So we designed. So we, we, we look all over the city and you know, in New York City a lot of buildings don't want kitchens built because there's ventilation issues, there's fire safety, and we found it almost impossible in Manhattan to find a space that could work. But then there was this new building and the Brooklyn Navy Yard. And the Brooklyn Navy Yard, which most people don't know where it is. It's, it's essentially like there's the Brooklyn Bridge, there's a Manhattan Bridge, and the Manhattan Bridge is, you know, if you just go a little bit further north in Brooklyn, that's the Brooklyn Navy Yard. It's right on the water, basically wedged between downtown Brooklyn or DUMBO and Williamsburg. And it's a, it's a working shipyard, but it is a big, so it's, it's, it's government owned and it's, it's, it has lots of warehouse spaces and the shipyard is still functioning, but it's much smaller at a much smaller scale than it used to be. So what they did very cleverly years ago, we realized there's this whole creative culture in New York City with people who need spaces to work, and Manhattan Rent don't work for them. So they turned all these warehouses into, like, you know, there's lots of photographers.
- [53:55]
A
There's.
- [53:55]
B
There's ceramicists, there's jewelry makers, there's distilleries, there's all sorts of creative businesses in the Brooklyn Navy Yard. And they have. Because it's. Because it's not commercial real estate, they are able to offer rents that are. Are better for people like the. Basically the creative class. And so we. There was this new building going up right on the water, and they were looking for essentially an anchor tenant who was a creative company who we fit. We fit that description. And they helped us, you know, build out this kind of amazing space that looks out over Manhattan. And the ferry drives right up to the building. And we can actually, from our building, if you look out the window, we're right next to the dry docks. So the ships. You know, every week there's, like, new boats to come in. They, like. They have a lock system, so they, like, empty out. The boats come in and they empty out the water. They fix the boats, and then they fill it back up and they go out. And it's really cool. It's like a Richard illustration of all sorts of things happening. Cranes and. And equipment and. Yeah, it's. It's. It's nice to be in a space that's where you're surrounded by a lot of other creative businesses. There's. There's a, you know, a film studio there. And so we. We. Yeah, we moved into the space. And it's. It's. It's funny because our. We have a very kind of scrappy culture generally, and it's. It's definitely a more polished building than we've ever been in. And so we're kind of still finding our way there. And, you know, it's a lot of learning curves. Like, Navy Yard, you have to have, like to get into it and stuff. So when we have events, we have a great place to have events, but inevitably, everyone ends up being an hour late because it's hard to get to.
- [55:43]
A
Oh, interesting. Okay, well, so if I'm ever in the Navy yard, I'll. I'll try to sneak my way in to check out food.
- [55:49]
B
Oh, I would love to have you visit.
- [55:51]
A
Yeah, I would love to see it. That'd be great.
- [55:52]
B
Yeah.
- [55:53]
A
Okay. Amanda, every podcast begins with what did you have for lunch? But it ends with, what are you having for dinner tonight?
- [56:00]
B
So we are having chicken shawarma and with some sides. And I think actually it's making. It's making use of some of the foods that we have left over from a dinner party. And so it's like. I think we have, like, hummus. We've got labna. We've got some raitas. And I think it's going to be sort of. And some pickles.
- [56:28]
A
Yeah.
- [56:28]
B
So. And. And I'm not cooking it, actually. Oh. A few years ago, actually, like, probably it's been a while, but, like, I had, like, gotten so busy with work, and I was getting home late, and also. And then I would have to, like, work after dinner, so I just, like, I. No time to cook. And. And our kids also just, like, you know, their. Their school lives were getting busier, and so we had this idea that we were going to, like. We were like, what if we could hire somebody who could, like, help. Just help us with our lives, but who could also cook to help us out, Which. And so we. We hired this amazing person named Ava Eva Chambers. And you should follow her on Instagram because she cooks all sorts of amazing stuff. She's like, a food stylist. She also, like, consults with restaurants. She's also worked in restaurants. Her. Her Instagram is flavocat. Flavocado or flavocado. I don't know how to pronounce it. L, A, V, Ac or flavocado. Acado. And anyway, so she worked for us for a couple years, and then she, like, left to do some other things. Some. And then we had another great person, and then, anyway, she came back.
- [57:44]
A
It's like Mary Poppins.
- [57:45]
B
I know. So she's like, a part of our family and, like. And, like, we're. Because she gets, like. You know, food styling is one of those jobs where you, like. You don't really know week to week what your jobs are going to look like, like, if you're going to have a gig or not. I mean, sometimes they're planned in, like, far in advance, but a lot of times it's kind of like the week before you find out. And it works really well for us because we're, like, super flexible. You know, like, if Ava can't cook, I obviously can. I can cook.
- [58:14]
A
I think you can. I'm pretty sure you can. Yeah.
- [58:16]
B
But it's also, like, you know, it's been really. Actually, I have found it, like, very inspiring to, like, have someone kitchen who has come with, like, a different style and a different point of view and different ideas and, like. Like, Ava went on this whole, like, she went. She just got really interested in Korean food. And so, like, we ate all sorts of, like, Korean dishes that she was trying out, or she'll get excited about a cookbook. And, like, for instance, she's super excited about as. As am I, Sola El Whaley's cookbook that just came out. And so she made her, like, mochi brownies, which are called perfect brownies, and so we're gonna have those for dessert. She actually cooked. So she cooked. We had friends over for dinner last weekend, and so she cooked that Persian rice that I had as leftovers for for lunch. So I did. So I'm not cooking dinner. And I feel, yes, a little embarrassed
- [59:12]
A
to say no, no, that's wonderful.
- [59:14]
B
I'm not cooking dinner, but. And I actually look forward to the day when I am not working such insane hours. Like, I'm not cooking as much, but I actually. It's funny because I actually end up doing a lot of the cooking that I do in for. For videos, so. So the cooking I do end up being forward.
- [59:34]
A
I get that. That's funny because, yeah, I mean, I try to cook things for my videos or my TikTok that, like, we'll eat for dinner, but sometimes, you know, the two things don't overlap. But I'm curious, like, when you. When Ava comes to cook, are there any stipulations? Like, does the Hester Friend household say, like, you know, we don't do too much garlic or. I don't know, is there anything that you. You. You ask her to stay away from?
- [59:58]
B
No. Well, so it's interesting because I just. Having worked with a lot of creative people at, like, at my company, but just also, just throughout my career, I. Oh, I think. Well, I think there's two things. I think creative people can thrive, actually, when there are a lot of constraints. Like, if there are, like, you know, budget constraints or, you know, space constraints or whatever it is, like, I actually think kind of brings to life a lot of their creative energies.
- [60:26]
A
Yes.
- [60:27]
B
But I also feel like there's a. There's. Creative people also need freedom and, like, and to be. Have a space where they can just kind of run and, like, play around. And because we like pretty much to eat pretty much everything, and because we. This is sort of like a. Maybe a weird kind of job. Right. Because it's sort of like, oh, hey, you know, like, it's. It's not. It's not super structured. And then, you know, and it's like. It's a mix of, like, helping us with our lives. It's like, oh, hey, you know, like, the kids forgot their such and such for school. Can you, like, go pick that up or whatever? Mixed with, like, cooking, I just. We felt like it's great, great to just kind of like, hey, surprise us.
- [61:09]
A
Yeah, that's amazing.
- [61:10]
B
And. And because I feel like, you know, that hopefully is a. Makes it more fun to work. Work, you know, to do this kind of cooking. But also I really enjoy it because obviously I'm curious about food and curious about how people think about it. But what we do do is that, like, if there's something that, like, she makes that we, like, really love, we're like, oh, hey, we really love that. Is there any way to kind of get. Keep that in the mix? I will say there is maybe one stipulation, which is that we, we love. We love desserts and we love cookies. And so there's kind of like a. Hey, it's. Can you just keep. Always have like, kind of cookies or something sweet around the house. And. And you know, we're perfectly happy with like a plain old, like, toll house chocolate chip cookie. But, you know, Ava is like an amazing baker and she's one of those, like, intuitive bakers. Like, I remember when she first worked for us, she would make cakes without a recipe, which I still like.
- [62:02]
A
That's not possible.
- [62:04]
B
My mind. She does, and they're always amazing.
- [62:08]
A
Wow. I mean, pound cake I could probably do because it's a pound of each thing, but otherwise I would be in trouble. So what I forgot to ask you, because this is going to air on Monday, the week of Thanksgiving is. What are you guys doing for Thanksgiving?
- [62:23]
B
So we. We don't really have a regular Thanksgiving thing for many years. Like, I didn't. Because not only is the lead up, you know, in food and media, the lead up to Thanksgiving is like, super intense.
- [62:35]
A
Yes.
- [62:35]
B
But then we have a, you know, having a commerce business. Black Friday through Cyber Monday is your busiest time of the year. So I, for a number of years, we kind of did very little for Thanksgiving. We would stay home and like, kind of, you know, have a pretty tame Thanksgiving dinner. But this year we're actually going to Pennsylvania to my brothers. And so I'm excited to kind of see how they. How they celebrate Thanksgiving and. And like, be able to, like, just pitch in and, you know, help out, you know, like, roll up my sleeves, get in the. Get in the kitchen. And that's nice. So, yeah, I think it'll be great. Sometimes he fries a turkey, but I'm not sure he's going to be looking at this year. Yeah.
- [63:18]
A
Does your brother get intimidated to cook for you?
- [63:21]
B
Oh, no, no, no. My family, like, everyone, like, likes to cook together, and actually, my. He's a really good baker, and. Yeah, no, no. Everyone, like, loves to cook together. And my mom is, like, known for, like, she'll. If she has a cooking question, she'll ask my sister, not me. I love that.
- [63:41]
A
That's like. That's like. That's, like, perfect mother, like, behavior. Like the sort of.
- [63:44]
B
I know.
- [63:45]
A
Pokey where it hurts. Yeah. That's amazing. And where's your family? Do you have family in Florida, Right?
- [63:51]
B
That's right. My mom's. So actually, the past couple Thanksgivings, we've gone to Florida.
- [63:55]
A
That's where I go.
- [63:57]
B
Oh, you do get. Right. Your parents are there, right?
- [63:59]
A
Yeah, yeah. We're going this year to, you know, Boca. Boca Ratons, where my family lives. But Craig's parents are from Bellingham, Washington. Washington State all the way. The opposite end of the country. And they're coming this year to my parents, which is going to be a real culture clash. It's like Fargo meets the nanny. So it will be very. It'll be very interesting, but I'm excited to go home.
- [64:21]
B
You cook or do you.
- [64:22]
A
Oh, my God. Now, this is where the therapy role is going to switch, because I once cooked Thanksgiving for my family, and it was a disaster just because my mom is a control freak and that she doesn't, like, she doesn't use her kitchen. Like, her kitchen is like a museum. She doesn't cook at all. And so she hated that I was dirtying the stove, and there were just all these fights, and so I never did it again. And we go to a. Their golf club buffet.
- [64:46]
B
That's very funny, because my mom is similar. She's like. She's very particular, and she likes. She loves cooking, but she doesn't really like a lot of people in her kitchen. So we did a couple Thanksgivings where we were, like, we were cooking or. And all together. And then last year when we went down to visit her, she. We went to her club.
- [65:01]
A
Yeah. And it's so nice. Craig loves it. It's like, there's ice sculptures, there's shrimp cocktail, there's carving stations. So I was like, you know what? It's actually kind of easier and more relaxing not to have to do any of that. So I kind of don't dread it at all. So.
- [65:16]
B
Yeah. Yeah. It's a cultural experience.
- [65:19]
A
Yeah, totally. Well, Amanda, have a great Thanksgiving, and thank you so much. Yeah. And thank you for having me. Of course. Maybe I'll see you around Brooklyn.
- [65:29]
B
Yeah, I hope so.
- [65:30]
A
All right, Have a good day. Bye. All right, that's it for this week's episode of Lunch Therapy. Be sure to give me a follow on Instagram and no longer Twitter because I just deactivated it. But you can find me now on bluesky and Threads Amateur Gourmet. And be sure to subscribe to my newsletter, amateur gourmet.substack.com if you need some Thanksgiving recipes. I did a big newsletter this past Thursday that has lots of recipes for you. And I hope you have a terrific Thanksgiving. But don't forget to eat lunch. All right, I'll see you back here next week. Bye. Bye.