Beyond the NRA: Why School Shootings Have Become a "Reality" (and How We Fix It)

Summary

Podcast Summary

Lunch with Jamie – Episode:

Beyond the NRA: Why School Shootings Have Become a "Reality" (and How We Fix It)
Date: April 30, 2026
Host: Jamie Patricof
Guest: Manuel “Manny” Oliver (artist, activist, father of Parkland victim Joaquin “Guac” Oliver)

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Episode Overview

This powerful episode explores America’s gun violence epidemic through the voice of Manuel Oliver, father of Parkland shooting victim Joaquin “Guac” Oliver and creator of the one-man theatrical show, Guac. Jamie and Manny discuss grief, activism, art as a vehicle for change, the frustrating politics of gun reform, and what all of us can do to fight the normalization of school shootings. The conversation is heartfelt, candid, and focused on solutions rather than despair or partisanship.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Genesis and Impact of Guac (03:19–11:59)

• Theme of the Show:
  Manny stresses that Guac is not just "a sad play"; it celebrates the life and personality of his son Joaquin while addressing gun violence as a reality that can be changed.

• Quote:

  “That's the kid I want everyone to meet. And by the way, he was shot. So let’s also talk about that… let’s see what we can do to stop this from happening.” – Manny [03:45]

• How the show began:
  After frequently being asked to tell Joaquin’s story in fleeting moments at events, Manny realized theater allowed for a deeper, sustained, and more complex dialogue with audiences — especially with those who may initially disagree.

• Approach:
  Guac is intentionally non-partisan and uses both humor and emotion to open minds. Manny wants people to come not knowing what to expect, believing surprise deepens their engagement.

2. Remembering Joaquin & the Realities for Families (05:14–07:01)

• Joaquin’s Personality:
  Described as unique, active in social issues, loved sports, music, movies, and family, and was "by far my best friend." Immigrant experience made the family bond closer and more resilient.

• Quote:

  “Joaquin was by far my best friend, and I miss him very much every single minute.” – Manny [06:26]

3. The Power and Purpose of Storytelling (11:59–13:31)

• Empowering Others:
  Manny notes that Guac helps those who have lost loved ones recognize that their stories and actions can be transformative — grief doesn’t have to be only private misery.

• Mother-to-mother connections:
  Patricia (Manny’s wife) often receives support and solidarity from mothers after performances, a “magic energy” that empowers others to act.

4. Why Real Change is So Hard (13:31–19:20)

• Media & Content:
  Despite a proliferation of documentaries, dramas, and news coverage, there is a lack of real legislative progress.

• Why?

  • Politicians have power to change things but default to "drills" and adaptation rather than prevention; the White House shooting attempt becomes a case study of leaders personally experiencing the terror but taking little real action.

  • Cultural normalization:

    “We saw representatives hiding under tables…just like probably Joaquin tried to do that day.” – Manny [15:00]

  • The gun industry benefits from fear and the perception that guns are needed for protection.

  • The NRA is not the only barrier — with 400 million guns in America, the culture of escalation and self-defense goes “beyond the NRA”. [17:27]

• Quote:

  "If I’m doing this, what makes anyone else not do something? That’s the big question here." – Manny [19:11]

5. Where Hope Rests: Small Wins & Next Generation (20:48–23:14)

• Wins:
  Manny measures progress not just legislatively but in human engagement: each performance, each conversation, and especially the mobilization of young Americans.

• Young People:
  There are no youth rallies in favor of more guns—but thousands reject gun violence, offering hope for cultural transformation.

6. The Journey of Guac and Creative Activism (23:38–28:10)

• Growth:
  The play’s humble beginnings — “rooms for 20 people, churches without A.C.” — to opening at the Public Theater in New York.

• Art to Activism:
  Manny, a creative director by trade, used painting murals and other unconventional art forms to launch his activism — later evolving into performance and digital/social campaigns.

• Collaborative Spirit:
  Open to others using the platform, Manny invites collective action and believes creativity is central to impact.

7. Innovation: Gaming and Digital Campaigns (30:20–32:39)

• Roblox Campaign:
  During COVID, Change the Ref held a 24-hour event on Roblox, simulating a virtual birthday party for Joaquin, drawing nearly 20 million visits; focused on gun violence awareness.

• The aim: leverage platforms where young people gather to educate, not just entertain.

8. Core Problem: Access to Guns, Not Culture (33:16–35:40)

• Cutting Through Excuses:
  Rejects blaming “video games” or “Hollywood”, pointing out that other countries consume the same media but don’t have mass shootings — easy access to guns is the difference.

• Quote:

  “If you want to really talk about the root of the problem… it’s the easy access to guns.” – Manny [34:44]

9. Avoiding Partisanship and Building Empathy (35:40–38:14)

• Learning Non-partisan Advocacy:
  Despite early frustration with politicians from both parties, Manny and Patricia now eschew party labels and focus their activism against harmful ideas, not individuals or groups.

• Quote:

  “We fight against ideas. Not party colors or anything.” – Manny [37:02]

10. Engaging All Sides: Art as a Bridge (38:14–45:17)

• Special Segment:

  • Doug Pray (documentary filmmaker) joins to discuss his new film Louder Than Guns, which explores gun violence through music and by fostering cross-aisle conversations.
  • Both Doug and Manny emphasize the power of art to reach people emotionally and bypass polarization.

• Quote:

  “The hardest thing to do in 2026 is to listen to others and respect other people’s opinions who you might completely disagree with.” – Doug Pray [41:21]

  “There’s a lot of empathy with me and the play just because I lost my son, number one. But… we need more than that.” – Manny [42:14]

11. The Role of Corporate America and Distribution Challenges (46:46–50:57)

• Brands Must Step Up:
  Big change requires corporate involvement (e.g., campaign with Lush Cosmetics in over 200 stores).

• Economic challenges:
  Films and plays about gun violence face distribution hurdles — “Distributors do not want to touch [the] movie.” – Jamie [49:11]

• The role of activists and audiences: support art that tackles tough subjects to keep these stories in the public arena.

12. Coming Events & Sustaining Momentum (50:57–53:10)

• Upcoming Shows:
  Guac will be staged in Coral Springs, FL (sister city to Parkland), a particularly emotional return to where the tragedy happened, as well as in New York City.

• Community’s Role:
  Communities often move to forget, but sustaining the conversation is needed for real prevention.

• Sobering Statistic:

“Since Joaquin was shot, more than 380,000 people have been shot.” – Manny [52:16]

13. The Path Forward: Concrete Actions and Policy (53:37–59:22)

• #1 Recommendation:
  Safe Storage Laws — mandating that gun owners lock their firearms. Doesn’t infringe on the Second Amendment, but dramatically reduces accidents and theft.

• Quote:

  “Safe storage… will decrease the amount of victims in a dramatic way. Everybody's keeping their gun, but you just need to lock it.” – Manny [54:33]

• Universal Background Checks:
  Exposes loopholes like private sales and gun shows (Manny bought an AR-15 with no background check in FL on camera).

• Frustrations with Congress:
  Bills exist but are never brought up for a vote; endless cycle with each administration.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• On grief and activism:

  “I’m over that moment of me feeling as a victim here. I’m not a victim. My son is a victim... The fact that I can do this, it empowers me as a father.” – Manny (07:10)

• On American normalization of violence:

  “Any argument … could escalate and easily kill someone … in here, there’s a big chance we can escalate these and reach our guns and someone’s going to get shot.” – Manny (18:06)

• On generational hope:

  “Young Americans do not want guns around them.” – Manny (22:59)

• On the pointlessness of engaging with zealots:

  “I wouldn’t. Some conversations are just … you’re going to waste your time.” – Manny about a hypothetical conversation with Charlie Kirk (46:58)

• On the only right to prioritize:

  “Your right to carry a gun cannot be more important than the right that my son had to enjoy his life.” – Manny (44:06)

• On political obstruction:

  “There’s plenty of bills in there. We don’t need to write any bill. The bills are there. We just need to pass them.” – Manny (58:49)

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Important Timestamps

• [03:19] – Manny introduces the concept and tone of Guac
• [05:14] – Describing Joaquin
• [07:01] – The moment Manny realized he needed to create the show
• [13:31] – Why public storytelling and activism are hard but necessary
• [15:00] – Politicians being subjected to the same terror as children (White House Correspondents Dinner shooting)
• [17:27] – “Beyond the NRA”: gun culture’s deeper roots
• [22:59] – Kids versus adults on gun advocacy
• [30:46] – The innovative Roblox/online gaming campaign
• [34:44] – Simple truth: the problem is access to guns
• [37:02], [42:14], [44:06] – On partisanship and empathy
• [54:33] – Why safe storage is the single most effective first step

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Actionable Takeaways

1. Promote Safe Storage Legislation:
   • This is the least controversial, most immediately impactful measure.
2. Push for Universal Background Checks:
   • Expose/dismantle loopholes especially private sales and gun show loopholes.
3. Support Art and Content Tackling Gun Violence:
   • Attend shows like Guac, fund documentaries, and amplify diverse creative approaches.
4. Engage Corporate America in Advocacy:
   • Encourage brands to take public stands and use their platforms for awareness.
5. Empower the Next Generation:
   • Uplift youth-led movements and help young people claim their voices in the debate.

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Tone, Style, and Final Thoughts

The conversation is deeply personal, urgent, and yet full of hope, humor, and creativity. Manny refuses to be a victim, demands truth and clarity, and invites everyone—regardless of ideology—to join the movement in their own authentic way.

• Memorable Closing:

  “If Joaquin’s movement and his play and everything that we do … can take those steps and change things, I can find some balance and some happy moments too. I’ll be fine with that.” – Manny [57:55]

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Recommended Next Actions: Attend Guac if possible or support the play’s tour, demand safe storage laws in your community, back youth organizations and artists taking on this issue, and pressure lawmakers not to let these common-sense bills die in committee.

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to lunch with Jamie. Today. My guest is Manuel Oliver. Manny is currently on his second run for his show Guac at the Kirk Douglas Theatre. And today's conversation is a very unusual conversation where we're talking to an artist who created an extraordinary show, one of the best I've ever seen, out of the tragic murder of his son Joaquin during the Parkland shooting in 2018. But Manny is someone who doesn't want you to be sad, doesn't want you to walk on eggshells. He wants to talk about the gun violence in a nonpartisan way and just wants to hear the story of his son and how he was such a special person and taken from him. We talked about his work with his wife Patricia and change the ref. We talked the unique ways that Guac is getting the story out there, what you can do to stand up against gun violence, the one law that he thinks should be enacted immediately, which will surprise you and much more. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. I hope if you're in Los Angeles, you get a chance to go see Guac. I guarantee you will enjoy it. If you don't send me the bill and I'll send you your money back. And it's funny and heartfelt and emotional and inspiring. And for those of you in Florida and New York, you'll be making its way around. Check out this conversation with Manny Oliver. Hi, everyone. Welcome to a very special lunch with Jamie. Today I am joined by Manuel Oliver, who is the writer and performer of Guac, a one man show that returns the Kirk Douglas Theater tonight. Manny, who immigrated from Venezuela, was living in Florida and working as a creative director when tragically, on February 14, 2018, his son was lost at Parkland school shooting. Since then, Manny and his wife Patricia have worked tirelessly to become activists for gun control and created what I would say is one of the most powerful and brilliant pieces of art in Guac. Manny, thank you very much for joining us today.

[B]

Thank you. Thank you for having me here. It's my pleasure.

[A]

So I was. It's a complicated topic, obviously, to talk about and show to talk about. I was, I'd say, lucky enough to get to see Guac and its first run in the Kirk Douglas Theater. And I was speechless watching it. And I was speechless after, while I was laughing and crying and cheering. It's as close to perfect as you can get. So I just want to thank you for what you've brought to the world.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

We are a few hours away from the return of Guac, which I will see you at tonight, unfortunately, some of these people and are listening, haven't seen it. And although you've been traveling the world, there are people left that you need to reach. Can you just talk a little bit about the show and explain to people and give people a little bit of a sneak preview of what it is?

[B]

Absolutely. So let me start by saying that this is not a sad play. Okay. My reality is pretty sad. My wife, Patricia, myself, we lost our son. Our son was shot in the Portland school shooting. And then we decided to find ways to tell the story. Tell the story about Joaquin and then along with that fight against gun violence. But the story about Joaquin is not based on the fact that he was shot eight years ago. Story about Joaquin is wonderful. 17 years of happiness, joy, sports. You know, like, that's the kid that I want everyone to meet. And by the way, he was shocked. So let's also talk about that. And now that we're talking about that, let's see what we can do to stop this from happening. That's pretty much what happens on. On the stage. What will happen tonight. And as you said at the beginning, yes, you might be crying at some point, but I promise you will be laughing really loud in some other moments. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, that's one of the things that is so special about this, is that it's a. It's a. It's a topic that is complicated to talk about and is, you know, you had what occurred that every parent's worst nightmare and every person's worst nightmare. But I felt that this. The way you told this story just, you know, was so rare to see it done in that way. And the honesty and bravery that you and your wife have gone through to share this, I know this is a big part of the show, but since some people aren't in Los Angeles and aren't around right now, would you just tell me a little bit about Joaquin and tell everybody about Joaquin?

[B]

Sure. Joaquin had a very own personality and attitude. So by meaning that I wouldn't say that he was like me or he was like Patricia. He had his own thing going on. Very active when it comes to social issues. Very vocal on social media and also everywhere, the center of the party the whole time, sharp humor, dark, sharp humor. Like no one else. In love with sports, music and movies. What else? He loved popcorns and hot dogs and sodas. And he loves his family. You know, we had a very close relationship, maybe because we came from another country, and that. That makes us more a team that is adjusting as a family to this new culture so that it's a way of holding us together that probably other families don't need. So that describes my son. I have to add that Joaquin was by far my best friend, and I miss him very much every single minute.

[A]

Thank you for sharing that. He sounds like a very special boy, and I know from having seen the show how special he was. What was the. And I hate to go back in time for you, as you do in the show, but what was the moment where you knew you had to create guac? Sure.

[B]

Listen, I don't want you to be concerned about the way you're asking things or what to ask. Go for it. I'm over that moment of me feeling as a victim here. I'm not a victim. I also want to make that very clear. My son is a victim. I am the father. And the fact that I can do this, it empowers me as a father. So I'm easy to talk. And I really think this is a conversation that a lot of people should have. The same way that we talk about climate change, same way that we talk about things that concern us, this is something that should concern us. And as long as we keep that line of that ethical line or that line of respect, because we won't get to the solution. So I just try to open the dialogue now. And what made me do this? I'll tell you. I have to talk to people about my son, and then I'm invited very frequently to these events, local events, and they will give me 5, 10 minutes to speak to an audience that already loves what we do. Okay, so that's pretty easy. Five minutes, 10 minutes. You're in a panel, you answer a couple of questions, and everybody agrees with you. They will all cheer for you. What if we have a play? We have one hour and 30 minutes, and we have 300 people in front of us 17 nights in a row for me to tell the story of my son. The only way to do that is through theater. That interaction, that relationship between me as a father, not as an actor, but as a father that try his best to become an actor, if you can say that. That exchange with real parents that still enjoy their kids, that exchange with go owners that I wouldn't have if I'm just in an isolated event of people that will agree with my ideas and only my ideas. That is the magic of theater. So wherever you look at this from every angle, it makes sense. People come to the show. They don't expect what they're going to see. There is a chance that they Will, if they don't already agree with us. There's a chance that will agree with us at some point.

[A]

Thank you for saying all that. And you're right. It's. It's something we need to be talking about. And to, to be able to have to tiptoe around it on eggshells all the time, unlike some of these other issues, maybe is part of the reason. It's a small reason why it doesn't. Isn't top of the conversation every day. You know, I'm curious how you want people to come to the show. I'm gonna admit something very embarrassing, but I'm very honest. I am on the board of the Center Theater group. I try and see all of our shows. I try and stay in tune with what we have happening. I missed what Guac was about. I showed up to Guac. It could have been a musical. It could have been puppets. It could have been about Guacamole. I had no idea what it was about. I didn't know it was a one man play. So you can imagine that was probably. I was probably in the minority of the people in the room that night. But I'm curious, you know, what, what do you. What do you want people to expect when they're seeing it? Or what do you, what do you. What's. What do you want people coming into the theater with when they arrive at Guac?

[B]

Sure. Well, I like that. I mean, what you just said, I, I think it's great that we're not revealing that much with the name Walk. You're right. You don't know what's going to happen. It could be a Mexican festival going on in here and you have no idea. But once you're in the room, it makes total sense. And I think I want from people exactly that. Not knowing what they're going to find. Most of them do because we have an activist life along with what we do every day. We have a lot of things going on, but when they come in total, like not knowing what's going to happen, I think it's a better experience. And for me it's definitely a better experience because now, now the conversation is getting out there. And that is exactly my goal. I mean, probably you're going to ask today, but just in case you don't ask, my goal here is to have more and more people listening to this message, getting to know my son. And yeah, the plan is to do this forever. This is my priority right now.

[A]

What surprises you the most when people come out of this show and maybe There's a couple of examples of conversations that you've had either directly after the show or in relationship to the show.

[B]

There's a lot of support. A lot of people are very thankful for this. I'm going to give you a great example. A lot of people that have lost loved ones, they see the show and they find now that there's a chance that they can do something about it. You don't have to stay sad and miserable for the rest of your life and you don't have to put a play together. You don't have to write down a script or paint a mural. But you will find what to do. And that happens a lot. We have a lot of Patricia. She's the one that gets along with everyone. Everybody loves her. Will see a lot of mothers talking to Patricia after the show. And there is that mother connection. I can't find anything harder than losing a kid. And when it comes to mothers and they find each other, it's like a magic energy. So that's what I value more from the show, the way that other people react. And now they go like, okay, now we can do something. I like to think that they feel better. I like to think that we empower them in a way.

[A]

Yeah. One of the things that really surprises me when it comes to this topic is there is a fair amount of, I'll use the word content that is made about this subject. I made a documentary about parkland called Us Kids. There's people who are in the Jamie's List community who, Doug Pray, who's on here, just made a new documentary that just coming out. There's documentaries being made all the time. The drama right now, which is the big all the rage and the new film with Rob Pattins and Zendaya, it's all about, you know, deals with this topic, yet nothing changes. You know, we're having this conversation just a few days after. After the attempted shooting at the White House Correspondents Dinner. But that's just one of many that happened on Saturday. You know, some were fatal, some weren't fatal. Are you able to put your finger on why you don't see much change in this, in this arena?

[B]

Yeah, let me. Let me use your question as. As the answer maybe. Yes, there was an intent of assassination of the president a couple of days ago, a shooting that failed in a way. And we saw representatives and the cabinet and, you know, very important political figures hiding under tables, just like probably Joaquin tried to do that day. We saw these representatives practically being part of a drill. Okay. And that was their choice. They could change things. Now the kids in school, they cannot change things. They have to adapt to whatever our politicians are deciding that is the right solution for this. And they decided that having drills and getting them ready for an active shooter situation is the right thing to do. I met a guy once, I don't even want to mention any name or anything, but it, it surprised me when he said, well, you know what? I think that the kids will need more drills so they can, they can practice more. And that way, in some, some way blaming it on the kids because they didn't practice enough, like if it was a sports team, you know, so that's the wrong reality. It's not even a narrative. It's a reality. It's a fact. So I think that as long as we have the President hiding under the table, we are far from a solution. However, we have to keep on doing what we do. You have to keep on doing your documentaries, by the way, and anyone that is working on this, on getting the word out there, has to keep on doing what you're doing, because this is about flipping our culture. And, and we have done that before. We did it with the tobacco industry. We, we have done that before. And, and we have to do it to the gun industry. The gun industry is the only industry in the United States that has a protective shield. No one can go after that. And that's wrong because at this point, I think we should prioritize life over guns, period.

[A]

But it seems like even, even the NRA believes in certain laws that haven't been passed. You know, and it just, I, you know, I don't know, it's sort of shocking that we're, we've come out of that event on Saturday and it's not all these people want to talk about.

[C]

Right?

[A]

It's not. I mean, that must frustrate you to no end.

[B]

A lot. A lot. The problem is also beyond the NRA. The NRA has, I guess, 6 million members or so. We have 400 million guns in our country. Okay, so that's beyond the nra. Any argument that people that live in the United States could have, it could escalate and easily kill someone. Like if we have, if we, if we're around in London or Paris or Sydney and we have some argument with someone in the middle of a street, I can punch your face and you can punch me or kick my ass, and then it's done in here, there's a big chance we can escalate these and reach our guns and someone's Going to get shot. And then I'm going to say it was self defense. So we're getting used to that. At the end of the day, the only winner is, is the gun manufacturer. They keep selling guns. They, they, they told people, they, they tell us every single day that we need to find ways to protect ourselves. And the best way and fastest way to do that is by carrying a gun. We need to fight that. Listen, if I'm fighting it, and this is so important, if I. There's no place for frustration here. I. Yes. I feel sometimes that I just want to say, okay, I'm done. I can't do this. But I don't have that right. I. No space for frustration. And I have to do this. And if I can do it, I don't want anyone that is listening to this right now. I lost my best friend. I lost my son. 17 years old, beautiful kid. Was shot four times with an AR15. I thought about killing myself, but I didn't. I'm here and I'm planning to do this. So if I'm doing this, what makes anyone else not doing something? That's the big question here.

[A]

Yeah. And I don't know the answer. I mean, I saw the show six months ago or so. I wanted to have you on here as a conversation. I'm putting together a fundraiser for the show while it's here and for the theater. But I, I haven't done as much as I should have since I saw the show. You know, I think there's. We're in this news cycle, right, of where 24, 48, 72 hours. Even when it comes to gun violence. I mean, that's the, that's the shocking thing, right? Is there other industries where, you know, what does it have to get to so that, you know, people make a change or make a difference or make it or make a stand. You know, it's incumbent on myself. When I talk to lawmakers, I don't ask them about gun. Their stance on gun control and gun violence and what are they doing and they vote for this or that. And I probably need to. So I guess what do you a. Are there some wins that you've taken since you've started this show From a, from a legal standpoint, are there things you've seen change? Are there any cracks in the armor that you're getting excited about? Obviously you raise awareness within the people who get to see the show, and you can't leave there not having an emotional reaction and being energized. But what are some of the what are some of the wins you've taken?

[B]

Okay, so let's all remember that I started this fight by losing the battle. Okay? That's number one. I lost the fight on round one. My son is not here. So it's hard for me to reach that level where we can just now. It's a fair fight. I try to hold myself to small victories. For me, the fact that I'm here in Culver City having a play again that will probably be seen by more than 6,000 people, that's a little victory. And I keep that one with me. I think that is a step forward in our direction. Just like you, if I lost hope on something, it's on our politicians. I had a long, long time invested talking to politicians and they don't seem to react. So that's a slow process. So I, I find more effective talking to people. At the end of the day, people will choose the politician and not the other way around. And I also think, and this is the good news, and this is probably the answer that when it comes to, if I have seen some success, it's on the younger generation. Young Americans don't like this. They really are not on board for or carrying guns. You don't see a march or a rally of 18 year olds asking to have guns, demanding the right to carry guns. You see adults doing that for them, but it's not them. But you do see a lot of rallies of kids rejecting gun violence on daily basis. So that gives me hope. I think there's a lot of people that will at some point take the lead of a conversation, make the right decisions and then things will change. This is not going to change tomorrow or it's not going to change because I'm making a play here tonight. It will change with the addition of actions. And I think the number one action is getting those young Americans to raise their voice and to use their rights because they do not want guns around them.

[A]

I think that's right and I do think we just have to put it, shake it in lawmaker's face every day and just remember that. I have to remember that personally. Could you go back to the beginning a little bit? But what is the Journey of Guac been from the first day you performed it? And just out of curiosity, where, where have you traveled? How many theaters have you traveled to? What are some of the kind of numbers related to it?

[B]

Let me tell you. Okay, that's funny story. I've been in, in rooms for 20 people, okay, where I have to carry everything in my car. Unload, no rehearsal, no lights, do your thing, no microphone, and then get out of there. We've been in a church in Oklahoma. No A.C. like trying to do our best in front of 30 people. And then there's a tipping point. And in theater and you know these way better than me, it also is about who you know and who watches the show. I mean, you can have 300 people watching your show, but one person is the one that you need to get to the next point. And we were lucky enough to have the right people. And then that. That was an opening door to the Public Theater in New York. And from then on it became a nice solid play like the one that we have today. I think the next goal here is to have more presentations. Not longer runs, but more places. I mean, we have a school bus that we use to travel. Patricia and me, we really literally hit the road. So we can visit a lot of small venues or 300 people venues all day long and have a tour. That's the plan. Yeah.

[A]

Don't take this the wrong way. And I appreciate you've given me some space to say the wrong thing. So thank you for that. Are there. Is. Is there a place for other people to do their own stories, sort of that you've worked with that are their own stories of their child or their person they've lost? Have you ever had that conversation with people so grieve.

[B]

It's very personal. You have to. What I do, I don't think. And it's not because I have a skill or anything. I had no idea about theater before this, but I don't think if everyone is happy doing this, maybe it's not fitting you well in my case. My background as a creative director has always been how to send the message in the most effective way. So for me, it's kind of a normal thing. It's legit. It's legit for me to stand on a stage and talk to people. I know other parents that have similar actions. Not a play, but maybe they're part of some kind of event. And they do that frequently. There's also a lot of public speakers out there. There's also the option of what are you fighting for? Okay, you will find people that are fighting for school safety. I get it, it's very valid. But it's not covering the whole mistake, the big issue, the big picture. And then you will find people that will actually, believe it or not, some people will think that we should arm teachers. But I'm not here to fight with other parents that have Lots of kids, they can do what I do. It's. It's an open space. I had people invited to my events so they can use the platform. We had groups invited to our events, so they can use our platform. And I think that collective efforts always more effective than individual efforts. So in our case, we're open. Whoever is listening and wants to be part of this more than welcome.

[A]

One of my members, Pamela Frank, had a question about how you went from artist to activist. But I guess I'll take it one step back. I mean, that was a big change, life change in the sense of you had never acted, you had never been on stage. So. And. And I guess with day one, did you see yourself as a artist and activist when you did that first performance of Guac, or did you really not know what you were doing?

[B]

In some ways, it's a process that I think started with paintings, murals. When I. Very, very recently, after the shooting, I was able to paint a wall in Miami. It was a very, very much an activist, little disruptive action that we did. Not much planning, but it came out really nice, and it had some cool reactions from people. And I think that opened that path. That opened a path of getting more creative, more disruptive, like demanding real change in any possible way. There is no rules in here, and nothing is wrong. The only thing wrong here is that kids get shot in their school. So that said, you can do whatever you want to reclaim that. So we also have a lot of campaigns out there. We have partnership with the most creative people from the planet. We get calls. The way that Chainsaw Ref works is that we get calls and submissions for campaigns from all around the world, and then we will tweak them here and there, and they're all directed to sending messages about gun violence in the United States and how absurd these realities. And that evolving in that same direction opened the option of the theater. So it's not like a. It's not like I lost Joaquin and I decided to have a play. No, it's that Will. As Joaquin, we started questioning what is it that we can do that really represents our son? And eventually we arrived to this point. Now story continues. I don't know if there's something next, higher. I don't know if we're going to raise the bar. And it's not theater, but something different. We're also open for that. Technology is doing a lot of things that we're using, too, so there's no limit.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's one of the things I hope people take away from this conversation is to think outside the box of how to reach people. Chris Froehlich, who's a member, who's on here with us today, shared with me what you did with Roblox, which was just. I couldn't believe it when I learned about it. Would you, would you share with people what, what, what you guys did?

[B]

Yeah. So we had, I think it was during COVID and during COVID there was no way for us to get out there and do you know, physical events. So we decided to do a gaming event as part of Walkathon, which was a 24 hour event online. For that event, we were able to design a video game and Roblox was on board with the idea. So we created this universe around a party, a concert on the Roblox platform and it was celebrating Joaquin's birthday. Now, funny you're asking me because I just set it up here. We have, during the play, we have an exhibition in the lobby with more than 30 different pieces of art, sculptures and campaigns. And one of them is a gaming project that we have done. I just checked it out an hour ago and we had so far 19.9 million visits. So that's. And this is about, this is talking about gun violence. That goes back to the beginning of our conversation. I need people to talk about this. I need kids to find spaces where they can learn about this. Not to play a game where they can kill people, but where they can play a game where they can learn about how to prevent this from happening. The Roblox experience is one of those huge projects that we did. Then we came out with another game. It's called the Final Exam. So gaming has also been one of those branches that we have used and again, lead not by us, but by very talented people in each of these activities.

[A]

Do you think that, you know, again, it appears that, you know, gun violence is across mainstream media. There's gaming around it, there's all these topics, but again, it's, it's not act, you know, it's not changing laws. When you look at some of these other critical issues that do change laws, like what do you think needs to happen and what do you, you know, in regards to what you're doing with change the ref? Like what is there, is there a tipping point that you potentially see out there? I mean, again, people are dying every day. So it's not, that's not.

[B]

I think, I think we need to keep on telling the truth. This is not a, it's not even a debate. I don't know why this term or when it turned to a debate that the fact that it's okay or it's kind of fine because we have a second amendment rights. We can live with kids getting shot in school, basically. I've heard that from people. That's the price that we need to pay in order to have the right, the Second amendment rights. So that's false. And we have to tell the truth. We have to tell the truth. And the truth is that it's not the video games. And we all have seen our leaders blaming it on the video games. Sometimes they blame it on Hollywood. Oh, because you know what? Well, guess what? Hollywood has presence everywhere. I mean, Quentin Tarantino has his movies in Australia, and people don't get out from the movie theater and start shooting others. They don't. Why? Because they don't have access to guns. Same thing in London. Same thing in any country in Europe, Canada, even South America. So we have a problem here. And it's basically. And if you want to really talk about the root of the problem and we could all just cut the bullshit and get to the root of the problem is the easy access to guns. Now you want to call me a guy that wants to take your guns away. Well, not really, but I will love that anybody that has a gun went through some kind of requirements that will provide me the safety that I need. Because I don't care about you carrying a gun or not. Just don't bother me and don't end with the life of my loved one. So we should all agree on that. Anyone that is not agreeing with that is a fanatical political freak, and then that person is not right. So we need to raise the truth, be loud and clear again. Documentaries, theater, anything. Things that we haven't tried before. And I think there's a lot going on today that we never tried before or that others did not try before.

[A]

Yeah, the. One of the things you do so well is your show really is a nonpartisan show. It's not condemning one group of politicians or. And it. When I made our film, you know, what was one of our challenges was, was, you know, really did come out and, you know, it was really. I think it became very partisan in many way. It's an issue that becomes partisan really quickly. How do you take a step back and not make it partisan out of frustration?

[B]

I've learned that I was not like that. I thought at the very. You know, what happens when. When. When. When a kid gets shot. When your kid gets shot, the first thing that happens is that your local Mayor, your, your, your local governor will call you and maybe the president will call you. We got those calls from politicians. I am so sorry. What can I do for you? I had Marco Rubio calling my house. Trump did not call, but they invited us to the White House. So they will show, keep showing and giving and promising their support, which is total bullshit. You don't hear from them after that. So they break that promise. Anyone that breaks that promise could break any promise, by the way. So that frustration, it automatically made me. You know what? I cannot support any of these guys. I think they're using me. I think there's a way to grab, oh, the Latino parents from Parkland. They could help us raise some voice on the Latino community on the next election. Well, no, not anymore. We don't do that anymore. By the way, you're totally right. Patricia and me, we fight against ideas. Not party callers or anything. Against wrong ideas. More. I was arrested during President Biden's administration asking for change. I've been in big trouble. I get threats almost on daily basis under Donald Trump administration. So no, if there's someone that I don't trust, here is a politician giving me false promises. I rely on people and again, people will choose the right representative.

[A]

Yeah, that's well said. I want to take advantage. We do. Doug Pray is on this conversation. He does have a new movie that's documentary. It's coming out and I think as I think about what people, things people can do, you know, creating more content. I think you're right, is critical. So Doug, I would, I would love you just to tell, to sort of tell quickly what your film is about and anything else you have to say.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

I mean, thank you. And your play sounds amazing and I love the approach you're taking of like just wanting to affect anybody in any way they can. Our, our film is a music film. So it's a, it is a different approach. You could say it's a music film about gun violence and gun rights in America. And the approach we're trying to take is to, is trying to cross the aisle as much as we can and listen to the, to all sides. Like have the hardcore gun owners listen to those who are very much in favor of banning and vice versa. Those who are very anti gun and never held a gun in their life. Really having them actually kind of listen to and talk to respectfully to talk to gun owners who grew up with them because our culture is steeped in guns and the entire history of America is really, is so much about guns. It's incredible. And so we're just. It's a music film because we basically just went city to city and had what we call the hard conversation, which is where you bring people together of many different views, sit them down at a table and just have a respectful conversation. And by that I mean not looking for conflict. It's not reality tv. We are not looking for arguments. But like, wait, let me really try to understand you because the hardest thing to do in 2026 is to listen to others and to respect other people's opinions who you might completely disagree with. Like, I don't agree with half the people in my film but by listening to them I start to understand them and it starts to present a way through the morass of the laws or the what I. The polarization which you've referred to where it's just like, you know, if you're sort of anti gun, you're immediately like in your corner and if you're pro second amendment, you're in your corner and like, oh, you're just trying to take my guns away way. So I'm not going to listen. There's no conversation. And the person who's very, very anti gun, like I grew up and have been my whole life is like, oh, you're just, you're just a violent this and that and you, you know, you just want to shoot people up. You don't give a about it. It's like it's so hopeless, the conversation, the conversation itself is so hopeless right now that that's why we made the film. And so that's really all I can say. It's called Louder Than Guns. It's coming out and actually it's going to open in New York next week and so, and then it'll go to some other cities and. But, but it's weird. We don't have a call to action. There's no bill or law that we're supporting. There's no, we've tried very hard not to even line align with groups. We may very much love what they're doing because we want gun owners and people in red states to also watch the film. And we want people who may be more considered typically liberal like I tend to be, to also watch the film and have an open mind. And I guess that's just, that's how I kind of see as one way through is open conversation. And I wanted to ask you, Manuel, you talked about having gun owners at your performances or people who maybe, maybe are have a different political point of view. And I wonder if you feel, feel like, like your performance or seeing the human side of this has, you know, if you've had an effect in that way, like, how does you know, is that something that you enjoy seeing? You know, it's kind of like different approaches. So we're not just preaching to the choir, as they say.

[B]

Yeah, I think that's a lot of empathy with me and the play. Just because I lost my son, number one. But that's, that doesn't mean that they agree with my, you know, proposals in terms of solutions. And I appreciate that support because I'm a father before anything else, before becoming an activist or whatever. But, but we need more than that. And you know what? There's some false. Misperception of the fact that I carry guns. You're going to take my guns away. There's no way to prove that. There's no way. We haven't tried that. We haven't tried. You know what? Let's, let's regulate the access to guns for five years. I'll sign you a contract for five years and then we'll see what happens. Let's ban assault weapons and let's just. Mandatory universal background check, safe storage, like easy steps. Let's do that for five years. I'm pretty sure that we're going to save a lot of lives. For me, that's more important than anything else. You know what, it's really bizarre someone coming to me saying, but I have the right to carry my guns. I will never be able to have an argument of me needing the right for anything because I want to debate the fact that you lost your loved one. It's not even in the same. It's how, how are you bringing. It's like someone say, oh, I know what it feels. I lost my dog. And I know, dude, this is not the same situation. So your right to carry a gun cannot be more important than the right that my son had to enjoy his life. And if it wasn't my son, but your son, I will also agree on the point that I'm making right now. So it's a little more complicated than that. We have not tried the fact that some people say, no, you just want to take all our guns. That's a myth. It's a lie. It's not true. You don't know that. Now I know it's a fact. I know that my son was shot because someone legally had access to an AR15, not even illegally. A 19 year old kid in Florida was able to walk into a gun Shop, purchase two AR15s 2000ammunitions. 2000ammunitions. Why is that not a red flag? How can anybody buy 2,000ammunitions? If I go to any store and I buy 2,000, whatever, there's going to be some questions. So that's what we cannot normalize. And, and, and, and it's beyond any debate. Beyond any debate.

[A]

It's so true. And I want to thank Doug for going through making that film. Doug has a very accomplished documentary filmmaker. I worked on a film with him and did Surf Wise and Lizzo's film and a film all the way back in the 90s called hype. And I think it's important. Manny, you're really setting the bar because I think art, as someone who's a producer my whole life, art is one of the ways I think that will be the things that really do crack through the armor more than anything else. That's really how you can reach people. I mean it's obviously slow, but I'm going to believe it's making a difference. However, on the other side, and this is just relates to something you just said, gun violence is horrific no matter who it happens to. Just there's no case for the use of guns. But there was. And when it came to Charlie Kirk and his story, there was that quote where he said something along the line of I think it's worth it to have the cost, unfortunately some gun deaths every single year so we can have the second amendment to protect our God given rights. So when you're fighting, you know, what you just said is so black and white to me. Like there's no world where it's worth it to have a gun if it's going to lead to the loss of your son or anyone's son. But how, how do you, how would you have that conversation with Charlie Kirk? You know, how would you have that conversation with somebody who has that thought process?

[B]

I wouldn't. Some conversations are just, no, you're going to waste your time. I remember it when Charlie Kirk said that actually Elon Musk retweeted that. And, and I said, wow, this is like really the, the, the, you know, maximum level of fanatism I can see here. I think that one point that we're missing is how do we get corporate America involved? Okay? We live in the biggest capitalism in the whole planet. A lot of brands, a lot of people. That is a really important thing here in our country. And, and I'm jumping to another topic, but it's really important because we did something, a campaign, a very interesting campaign with lush Cosmetics. They have more than 200 stores in our country, and we had presence in all those stores for more than a month. That goes back to your question about victories. That was a huge victory because you have customers. They're not coming to my show. They're going. They're getting into a large cosmetic store, and they learn about change the rep. They learn about Joaquin, and they can sign a petition for changing. So I think getting corporate America involved in documentaries in. And. And again, like. Like our friend was saying with his documentary, like, you don't. You did not get any group involved. I think that's smart because you're opening the option of anyone coming to see the movie. I would love to see the movie, but imagine how. How cool would it be for a corporation to get involved with that and put their name in the movement. Like, same way that they have gone shows. We have a gun violence prevention show, and then we bring the documentaries and we have panels. There's nothing like that happening right now. So we need to increase the volume, increase our power, and use all our skills. Look at you guys. I mean, all of you are doing what I'm doing. Like, this is not a conventional interview.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

Where they all. Oh, so, you know, we're all doing the same thing. We're all trying to get the word out there.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, listen, that's. You. You just mentioned something that was one of the most frustrating things to me. You know, we made this film about Parkland. You know, say what you want about the film, whether you loved it or wasn't, you didn't love. Went to Sundance and we could not get a distributor. You know, distributors do not want to touch movie.

[B]

By the way, it's a great movie.

[A]

Thank you very much. I appreciate that. But, you know, people like you, I mean, you're not. You're not selling out shows on Broadway on a daily basis and raking in the dollars on this show. This is a life's passion. I've seen the. The bus you live in that you. You travel around and it's.

[B]

It.

[A]

It could probably use some repairs like that. Not done with, you know, electrical tape. You know, Doug pray is not getting rich off this documentary. Josh Seifedel, who's the empty rooms not getting rich? Nobody who is doing films or content around these issues and many other issues. People are running from them. And I think that comes down to the audience and to the people listening to this. They need to be the ones to come out and spend with their dollars and support these films and these stories that are about these tough subjects or else, you know, they're not going to be able to get made anymore. I talk. So Guac is in LA for a couple weeks now. I know you're going to be in New York in September, correct? September, I think. 25th, for a couple of weeks. Are there any other things that we can expect from, from Guac over the coming months or year?

[B]

Yes, there's a. There's a huge one on September 4th. We have September 4th and 5th. We're going to be in Coral Springs. Coral Springs is the sister city of Parkland. So it's this venue, the Coral Springs center for the Performing arts. It's a 900 seat venue and it's only two miles away from the school where the shooting happens. So when I say this is a huge event is because it's the first time that we're bringing it, we're bringing the conversation to the home where we have the media support, like way easier than in any other place. And we're invited every part of that community. And this is also an issue communities, when this happens, and it happens so often in so many communities that now it's like a, a rule, like a template, communities tend to forget. They have to. They find ways to forget and put that on their bag and try to go back to the normal. And this is when we remind communities what happened. Because the only worst thing after a shooting is forgetting about the shooting. You cannot, you cannot forget about the shooting because it could happen again at any point. Cortex Prince has been suffering gun violence ever. I want to finish with a. With a. With a number. I don't use stats in my interviews because I think it's a little boring. But it's impressive that since Joaquin was shot, more than 30, 380,000 people have been shot and that. And there's still the same, or the same inaction or even less. We were able to pass some bills that were reverted six or seven months ago. So again, this is not something that politicians will solve like a. Like a magic thing. It's us and our efforts and our documentaries and our hard work out there in the streets that will make change happen.

[A]

So. Well, I. I'm going to see the show tonight. I'm going to come back. As I mentioned, we're putting together a fundraiser as well. I.

[B]

And I'll.

[A]

Maybe I'll make it to New York as well, because I can't. I can't. It sounds strange, but once you see it, you understand why you want to see it again. I mean, it's it's just very unique and it's very. And I want that inspiration to do more.

[B]

What are.

[A]

I like to leave people with some action and what are the, you know, the five things you think are need to be done that you, you've done more research and studied this topic more than most people. You talked about some of them. But I really. I'd like that concise message. Okay. If you're speed, if you were speaking to Donald Trump or you were speaking to Governor Westmore, you were speaking to Governor Newsom or you were speaking to Ron DeSantis or whoever it was, what are the five things? If it's four or six, that's okay. I won't hold you to five. That, that should be done today. That shouldn't really be partisan. That's not. It's just very straightforward. This based on the data and the research and the science and everything we've read would lead to less deaths and should be something that could be passed.

[B]

You know what? I'm going to give you one. I want to be really specific here. Safe storage that won't remove the guns from whoever has a gun. It will urge the owner of the gun to put a lock on it when you don't have it with you. That will decrease the amount of victims in a dramatic way. Everybody's keeping their gun, but you just need to lock it the same way that I lock my car. It's not in any way affecting your second amendment rights. It will prevent kids that are just looking for things to play with in your house not to find a gun and kill their friends by accident. It will keep a thief that gets into your car to steal your gun and kill someone by accident. So that's an easy one I think is something that we could all agree and it will make a big change. Then I have many others, but there are more arguments and there is more debate on the others. I think this is a very clear one. Of course I will ask for a universal background check. There's a lot of loopholes in the law. Believe it or not, I went to a gun show in Miami and I was able to purchase an AR15 without any background check just because I was a Florida resident and there was a. We have in Florida and other states we have the right to purchase anything from another Florida resident and without any need for background check. So me and I film it. I had a spy camera with me. How easy it was for me to purchase an AR15, ammunitions, magazines and everything. I left that place like ready for a mass Shooting. You know what I did? I made a sculpture with the gun. That's not what people do

[A]

that. You know, I don't want to leave frustrated, Vanny. But now, now I'm frustrated because, you know, that's something that just pisses me off because it's saying, okay, the idea that, that can't get passed. The idea that our lawmakers, that you can't having done this amazing work and they all have heard about this and know about, know who you are and the fact that that law can't get passed is just. Is insanity. And you're right. I mean, the idea that somebody can be against that law is. Would be mind boggling.

[B]

So let's. You know what? I want you to really live motivated out of here and I will see you tonight and I can, I can give you a hug and you will feel more motivated. But let's work on that. Let's try to get those, those locks out there. Let's. Let's try to get the gold owner to understand that it's a good idea to have a lock that is not an imposition from me. It's a good idea to have a lock. And now we're all happy. Now I will never have Joaquin with me. I will never. But, but if, if Joaquin's movement and his play and everything that we do and all that energy that we. That we receive from him can, can take those steps and change things, I can find some balance and some happy moments too. I'll be fine with that. I'll be totally fine with that. So you will see a lot of change of ref. Getting into the safe storage because we already understood that. You know what the reality is that we have 4 million guns. There is no way to get them, but there's. There are ways to lock a few of them and that will keep people safe.

[A]

Before you go, is there an actual law on the books or that's been in Congress that relates to simply safe storage? No, it's all tied up.

[B]

There is, there is, there is. So, so here's what happened in Congress. They have the bills, the bills are there. They just don't discuss them. And, and every time there is a new administration, it goes back. You have to introduce the bill again. So it's a wasting time. The political game is really ugly. Believe it or not. They demand us to do things again and again and again and again. So I decided to be a little more aggressive and this gives me my own platform to talk to people. But there's plenty of bills in there. We don't need to write any bill. The bills are there. We just need to pass them.

[A]

Manny, thank you for everything you do. I put a link to the fundraiser coming up in the chat. I will see you after the show. I look forward to. If you're in LA, it's on until the 17th of May at the Kirk Douglas Theater. Please go. Please bring your friends. Mark the dates in New York or in Florida, if you're in Florida. And Manny, I thank you for everything you do. You're. You're a shining star and a role model for all of us.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

And I just, I love talking to you.

[B]

Thank you, buddy.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

You enjoy the rest of the day. Thank you, everyone.

[A]

Okay, take care. Thanks. Bye.

[B]

Bye.

[A]

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Lunch with Jamie. As always, be sure to subscribe to my [e-mail] for my thoughts on all things food, pop culture, politics and more. And remember to join these online conversations and ask my guests questions in real time. Sign up to get a paid subscriber. You can listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Audible and be sure to leave a review. Thanks and see you next time.