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Lunch with Jamie
Meet the Candidates: Mallory McMorrow on Leadership, Authenticity, and the Future of Michigan
00:57:09
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- [00:04]
A
Welcome to the new Lunch with Jamie series, Meet the Candidates, where I sit down with exciting, dynamic, fact based politicians and get to know them. You'll hear some familiar people on the series, but also some up and coming candidates. We're going to chat about their childhood, favorite foods, most surprising habits and more, but also get into policy and what they believe. My first Meet the candidates guest is Mallory McMorrow, a Michigan State senator who is now running in the primary for U. S. Senate. We talked about how she would fix the Democratic party, her brewery campaign tour, her surprising affinity for the Chemical Brothers, and why she loves Vernor's ginger ale so much. Now here's my conversation with Mallory McMorrow. As all of you know, I'm Jamie Patricoff and this is Meet the Candidates, my new series where I sit down with dynamic leaders, both rising stars and established politicians, and get to know them on a deeper level. This is actually our inaugural episode, so I'm really excited to be joined by Mallory McMorrow who is actually at Lunch with Jamie alum and is now running for Senate in Michigan. We're going to talk about policy, of course, but we're also going to take a bit of time to get to know her and get to know the person behind the campaign. Mallory, thank you for joining.
- [01:12]
B
Thanks, Shani. It's so good to be back and I'm happy to be the guinea pig.
- [01:15]
A
Yes, yes. Well, we'll see how it goes. So we're going to start off with hopefully in a little less than five minutes, sort of a bit of kind of your stump speech, but as well you know what the current landscape looks like, where the election stands and a little about what you stand for.
- [01:36]
B
Sure. So I will start by saying I did not find myself originally in politics at all. I graduated from Notre Dame with a degree in industrial design and I always wanted to be a car Designer. So in 2007, I had the opportunity to build a concept car live on stage at the LA Auto show. And that would normally set me up for success. But I graduated in 2008 and with a great degree in hand, I found myself sleeping in the back of my car and I had no job prospects. I had no health insurance because the Affordable Care act didn't exist yet. And I applied to close to 300 jobs. I was folding clothes for minimum wage at Urban Outfitters. And I meet so many people, my generation, all generations, who say what I felt, which is, I've done everything right and I'm still getting screwed. I can't afford to Buy a house. I can't afford to start a family. Childcare is too expensive. And I eventually found my way into politics. So I slowly dug my way out of that hole. I became a senior designer for Hot Wheels at Mattel, partner in a production company. I was in media and advertising for some time before waking up the morning after the 2016 election. And there was a video that had gone viral of middle school students chanting, build that wall at a fifth grader. That video was from Royal Oak Middle School here in Michigan, which was my polling place the day before. So I Googled how to run for office. I had never done it before. I had never worked on a campaign. I a great organization called Emerge, which recruits and trains Democratic women to run for office. And a month after my wedding, I filed to challenge my Republican incumbent state senator in 2018. In my first campaign, he had won by 16 points. Local Democratic Party leaders told me, there is no way you can possibly take him on and win. And I got to tell you, it was so freeing to not have any expectation on me. We got to run the campaign we wanted to run. We built up the team we wanted to build up. We had more than 500 volunteers over the course of a year and a half, which included retired teachers and grandparents and aunts and uncles and high school kids who were so angry in the wake of the Parkland shooting and wanted somebody to do something about it. And we took on this impossible task. And when all the votes were counted on election night, I beat him by four points. So we swung a district 20 points in a single election cycle that brought me into the state Senate. And, Jamie, when you and I first met, it was right in the wake of a speech that I had given from the floor of the Michigan Senate back in 2022, where a colleague had accused me baselessly of wanting to groom and sexualize kindergarteners. And I gave this speech that I truly thought would be the last speech I would ever give. And I put the video of that speech online. And by the end of the night, tens of millions of people had seen it. I was on CNN and msnbc and Fox News called me liberal Karen with a headband. And all of a sudden, it was everywhere. And we decided with the spotlight that I had been given. So I opened a pack. I raised millions of dollars, not for myself, but for a dozen other state Senate candidates here in Michigan. And we helped flip control of the state Senate from Republicans to Democrats for the first time since 1984. And when we did that, because it's not Just about winning. It's about what you do with it. So I am the first Democratic Senate Majority Whip here in Michigan in nearly 40 years and we did so much good work. We've repealed the seniors retirement tax. We expanded the earned income tax credit to lift A and families out of poverty. We passed free universal breakfast and lunch for all K12 age kids. We passed Universal Pre K for every 4 year old in Michigan. We passed sensible gun violence prevention legislation, including my law that created Michigan's red flag law. We closed the domestic violence loophole. We passed safe storage, universal background checks. We passed the strongest clean energy legislation in the entire Midwest. We repealed our state's 1931 abortion ban. We vastly expanded access to reproductive health care and the entire spectrum. Spectrum of reproductive care. We banned child marriage, which many people may not know was legal here in Michigan until just last year, along with legislation to make it legal to live together before marriage. So we're bringing Michigan into 2025. And I'm running for U.S. senate now because I just look at Washington and I wonder where is the fight that this is an existential crisis? I was listening to an interview with Robert Reich the other day who said, in the Democratic Party, it's not even a split between progressives and moder moderates anymore. It's a split between do you believe that this man is an existential threat to our country or is this is business as usual? And I see too many people who treat this like it's business as usual. So we need a fighter. We need somebody who stands up, who doesn't accept that we are powerless, who knows how to build power and then knows how to use it when we actually get it so that we can rebuild trust with voters. You know, there are a lot of people who ask me why didn't Democrats codify Roe when they had all the power on the federal level? And I tell them, I blame you. It is all right to be angry that they fundraised off of it for years and then didn't do a damn thing about it when they had all the power. So we have to change not only how we run and how we campaign, but how we govern. And that is exactly why I'm running now. I'll lay out the state of the race really quickly. First, the bad news. On the other side of the aisle, Donald Trump just endorsed Mike Rogers, effectively clearing the field. On the Republican side, there was a congressman, Bill Huizenga, who had decided he was going to run until. Until Donald Trump called him and said stand down. And he said okay. Mike Rogers just narrowly lost here to Alyssa Slotkin last cycle by less than 20,000 votes. So they are expecting that he won't have to spend any money. He already has universal name recognition. He won't have to earn the nomination. While on the Democratic side, we beat each other up, we spend money and they can just skate into a United States Senate seat. We cannot afford to lose that. So we're running a very serious campaign this early. I am on a statewide brewery tour right now, which I'm very proud of. I am coming to you as the 2025 Beer Defender of the Year from the Michigan Brewers Guild. And this early, we just need to build relationships with people. So we are inviting people all across the state to come grab a beer. Get to know me. There is no question that's off limits. We are not closing the venue. We are not pre vetting any of the questions, which can be risky. But we need to take risks and we need to show up and we need to have tough conversations with people and have them get to know us and frankly, have me get to know them so I can hear what's keeping them up at night and solving their problems. It's going amazingly well. And we have families coming up out. We have young people coming out. In our first weekend of the brewery Tour, we did four stops in four counties in 24 hours. And I thought maybe a few dozen people would come out and I would sit around a few tables and talk to people. We had more than 750 people show up. So we have had to change how we do these, give more time for questions. But it's just growing and growing and growing. And I'm just thrilled with what we're building and I feel like it can be a roadmap and a blueprint for Democrats across the country on how to show up, how to show up differently and build relationships.
- [09:03]
A
I love that. I love, I loved our last conversation. Now this is becoming very clear why it's so refreshing to speak to somebody like you who's got such a unique story, so different than anybody else you really hear in politics. Although, although so many politicians bring something different to the table, but yours obviously stands out. Can you talk a little bit? It's unusual. You're. You're running in a primary. You have other Democratic friends who are running against you. Can you talk a little bit about that?
- [09:29]
B
Yeah. So we've got a four way Democratic primary. It is myself, Congresswoman Haley Stevens, Abdul El Sayed, who was most recently the Wayne County Health Director who ran for governor in 2018, and Joe Tate, who was the speaker of the State House.
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A
And what's that? You know, listen, I think it's. I think it's important that we have strong primaries. I mean, we all saw that from the presidential election. You know, it's something people want. It's potentially a way to start to build trust back with the Democratic Party to think people aren't being just anointed. So I guess you're obviously friends with some of those people. And so how's that sort of process been going, and how do you kind of handle that?
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B
You know, it's great. There were some people who were nervous about it, right. And reached out and said, why can't you guys just sort it out and just pick somebody? And you hit the nail on the head that if we learned anything from the last few years, it's that voters do not trust when it feels like the parties make the decision for them. Voters want to vote, they want to have the right to vote. They want to choose their candidate. And the way that I look at it, especially with just Trump just did, what a contrast. You know, Trump is not trusting Michigan voters to pick their Republican nominee. He's already picked it for them 16 months before the election. What we're seeing now, especially the fact that we're doing events this early, that we've got staff this early, is that people are getting involved now and they're excited, they're energized. And I know all the candidates running, and I can speak for all of us when I say no matter what happens in the primary, we're all going to be there together the day after, because that's what we do. And I think Democratic primaries are healthy and exciting and gives people a chance to really get to know everybody and make a decision that's best for them.
- [11:14]
A
I totally agree. I think that's great. Thank you for going a little bit back into history, But I want to take a couple steps further back. You can you. Where were you born and raised?
- [11:27]
B
I was born and raised in rural New Jersey. So I know that's a scandalous thing to say when you're running for office in a different state. I've lived all over the country. My husband is a native Michigander, but friends of mine started a road rally around the state of Michigan a few years ago when I was working in. In other parts of the country. It was a thousand miles around the state, a different route every year, and they would invite 30 creative professionals to come on this trip. I absolutely fell in love with this state and the people here are so passionate and like out for each other and want to build something collectively together that was so infectious. So when it was time for us to put roots down, I moved us back home. My husband didn't want to come initially, didn't want to move back home. My mother in law was very happy with me, but it was the best decision I ever made. I was running a consultancy here, I was doing really well and Michigan made me the best version of myself. And I wanted to give that back to the state.
- [12:20]
A
I love that and I don't think people need to be tied to the state they grew up in or the state that they, you know, even lived in for a while. I think it's, you know, where you, where you find yourself, where you think make an impact and a difference. So I'm glad you didn't let that hold you back. Can you take me back to Mallory in high school for a minute? Did you, did you play a sport?
- [12:40]
B
I tried, I tried at a lot of sports. I tried out for the lacrosse team and got cut twice. I was a figure skater for 15 years. So I competed regionally. Made it into kind of some lower level competitions. One of the most horrific injuries I ever saw was between myself and a skater. We were on the ice at 6am There was nobody else on the ice. The two of us collided midair. Her toe pick scraped the back of my leg and then she landed on the the back of her blade when she fell. So it's a gruesome sport. Don't let the beautiful dresses and the music fool you. It's not for the weak hearted.
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A
What's the skill that we'd be most surprised to know you have?
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B
So I'm a pretty good karaoke singer. I was in a band growing up. I was in a screamo band. We had a pretty gnarly underground punk and sky scene in rural New Jersey where there were shows every Friday at a restaurant called the King Buffett. It was a Chinese buffet restaurant. They cleared the tables out every Friday and would make a little stage. And I was in bands there. So I played the drums for a little while. Played clarinet, bass clarinet, but with this voice, I'm a pretty solid karaoke ringer.
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A
One of my questions was gonna be randomly, what's your karaoke song? So now I have to, now I have to ask that question.
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B
Oh, my go to is Backstreet Boys. I want it that way. Crowdface.
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A
I love that. Tell me a little about your morning routine.
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B
My morning routine? I have Tried really hard to not have my phone next to my bed. That has been something that has been life changing over the last few years. It is a skill, you have to work at it. So it's not the first thing I look at when I wake up in the morning. I really try to give myself a good hour to wake up, read the newspaper. It's usually sitting out on my table from the weekend. And I read a little bit at a time throughout the week, make myself a cold brew. We make cold brew at home year round. I don't care if it's negative 20 degrees. And then. My daughter is 4, so I wake her up. She either has yogurt with fruit or pancakes depending on the day. And she likes me to make a smiley face on the plate with chocolate syrup for her to dip in. She's very particular about that. And she is watching either Bluey or Octonauts. So we watch that for about five or ten minutes and she gets dressed and then either my husband and I drop her off at school and then we start our day.
- [15:14]
A
And I know you mentioned you read the news, but what, what newspaper are you reading?
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B
An actual hard, hard copy, physical newspaper. Yeah, I think it is so easy to just get caught up in social media for news or just endlessly scrolling doom scroll if you kind of read your, your news on your phone. So we subscribe to the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, the Detroit Free Press, the Royal Oak Tribune, and I figure kind of between all of that, I've got a pretty even mix of both sides. Without getting into the extremes. I know what's happening in the state and I know what's happening in my community.
- [15:45]
A
I get the LA Times and New York Times and the Financial Times. So I'm right there with you.
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B
Salmon pink paper is nice.
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A
It's very nice. I love the fact that you don't. You aren't sucked into your phone right away. I'm the opposite of that. When you go to your phone, what's the first app you go to?
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B
Spotify.
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A
Spotify, Great. Okay, gets the next question. Okay, what, what's, what are your. Who are you listening to right now? Music.
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B
I mean right now it's a lot of music in the background. So Marabou State is a band I've gotten really into recently. Bonobo is sort of in that vein of like a little bit edm plus strings I guess is the best way to describe it. Like a nice beat in the background where I can read or do some work or not interrupt. And there's also just the Moana soundtrack on repeat. I am, like, in the top 2% of listeners in the world for the Moana soundtrack.
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A
That's saying a lot because there's probably a lot of listeners for that.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Do you have a campaign theme song or some walkout music
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B
go by the Chemical Brothers? It is a little more old school, but it is one of my favorites, and that is my. My walkout song.
- [16:58]
A
Do you have a favorite emoji you use on your phone?
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B
Oh, the, like, melting smiley face. It's like, everything's okay, but it's not.
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A
So since you are the beer candidate, what's your beer of choice?
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B
So it's summer right now. There is a beer called Shorts Soft Parade Sandy. It's like a fruit beer mixed with a little bit of lemonade. That is a great poolside lakeside beer. And the guys who own Shorts, which is way up in Northern Michigan, Elk Rapids, are phenomenal. Like, the most hilarious people you will ever met. Meat. And that is my go to this season. In the winter, there is a stout that is a peanut butter chocolate stencil stout by a brewery right here in. In the town that we live in.
- [17:42]
A
You and I would not be good beer drinking buddies. I drank. I drink, like, the most boring beer you could possibly get. Give me, like a Modelo or something else. I want no hops. I want no IPAs. I want nothing.
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B
Yeah, I can't do the IPAs. I don't want to get punched in the face by hops. But I do like flavor. Like, really thoughtful. Flavor is good.
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A
Since this is part of the Lunch with Jamie universe foods obviously very important to me. What would be your last meal? If it could be from one place or from various places?
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B
Oh, my last meal would be Jenny's blackout chocolate ice cream. Just ice cream. That's it. I'm going out. I'm going out Happy.
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A
I love. I love that. Okay, you were doing. Give me three dream dinner party guests, alive or dead.
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B
Ooh, this is a fun question. Lucille Ball. Fellow redheads, we gotta stick together. John F. Kennedy. I don't know if he'd be a good, good dinner guest, but I would want to talk to him. And Aretha Franklin. I gotta ask her, like, which will is the real will? Where is it? Which house is it in? I have so many questions.
- [18:55]
A
Who do you consider your political role models and why?
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B
You know, I came up and this is going to sound trite, but I was in college when Barack Obama got elected, and what I admire so much, and I think that this is just missing from so much of our politics right now is when he spoke, you felt better about yourself and what you were capable of, and it wasn't about his accomplishments or his background. It was just inspiring and it made us all want to do more. Right now, as I'm looking at who's stepping up and doing some interesting things, I have a lot of admiration for Chris Murphy. You know, as somebody who gun violence prevention is an important issue of mine. I lost the older brother of one of my best friends to the Virginia Tech shooting. And I meet so many people who've been directly impacted by gun violence. And seeing so much of his good work on that issue, but then a willingness to pivot his approach now that we're in a second Trump presidency. So you've seen sort of an evolution. And going back to my earlier point about Robert Reich's comment about is this an existential threat moment or not realizing that maybe you have to change your approach? So he's trying things on social media. I remember, like tuning into Instagram once and he just happened to be live and he just cracked a beer and said, hey, today was really fucked up. Let's talk about it. And it was just, just, you know, it wasn't scheduled and the staff hadn't written anything and, and doing all these town halls across the country and recognizing we have to build back power in this moment is something that I admire a lot.
- [20:37]
A
What is the most difficult part of campaigning that no one talks about?
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B
The most difficult part that no one talks about? I mean, fundraising is something everybody talks about. So I'm not going to talk about fundraising. Although if anybody wants to chip in@mcmarrow from michigan.com you can. The hardest part, I think, is just, it's time. I, I love it. I love meeting people, I love traveling the state. But you need your family and all of your friends to be fully bought in. And I tell all of my friends I'm sorry for being a crappy friend because it's, it's a sacrifice. I spent the last three days, you know, traveling to the west side of the state and up north, and we did 15, 20 different events sense. And that is a choice that I'm making. I recognize that. But it means less time going out with friends for dinner and my, my husband and my 4 year old hanging out at home. And she is amazing. She gets it as much as a four year old can. My husband is amazingly supportive, but I think that's the hardest thing. You know, people expect to see their elected officials and their candidates at everything. And occasionally I will get an email from somebody who's deeply disappointed that we had turned down their event. I have one day off a week, and I've learned I have to really protect that time off so that I can be at my best the other six days. Although my. My instinct is to say yes to everything and be there for everybody. But I. I won't be very good if I'm burned out and I'm not spending time with my family.
- [22:10]
A
I think that's really important. I think taking time for yourself is. Is critical in any professional, especially your profession. And you can't be. You can't give it 247 or you just won't be your best. So what is your ideal day off?
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B
My ideal day off, I think because this is such an extrovert job. I am talking, you know, for 12 to 16 straight hours on days when I am campaigning. So my ideal day off is reading the newspaper, having a cup of coffee, going for a nice run. I, for better or for worse, signed up for the Detroit Free Press International Half Marathon this year, which is the only international half marathon in the world. We run over the bridge to Canada from Detroit and we come back through the tunnel. It is so cool. This would be my third one, but means that I need to actually take time to train for that. Spend some time in the pool if it's hot out and make a nice dinner. I'm not the best cook, but I like to try to learn and go to sleep by nine. Ideal day off. Really introverted. It's my one introvert day.
- [23:18]
A
I, I love that day. That sounds great. And that marathon sounds so much fun. Does everybody have to show their passport as they're running, or is that so?
- [23:25]
B
You have to. You have to sign up with a passport. They recommend you bring your passport or passport card with you because they will pull random people. So they also advise, like, don't sign up for this marathon if you're running for time. It's about the experience. And I gotta tell you, like, running with thousands of people over the bridge as the sun is coming up over the Detroit river with Canada on the other side. Like, it is unbelievable and probably one of the most underrated races in the country. So big shout out to the Freed
- [23:53]
A
Marathon if you're allowed to walk it. I might actually take you up on that.
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B
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've always wondered. There. There were some women who ran next to me last time and they, they were amazing. They. Their vibe. They were. They picked up some Timbits at Tim Hortons on the Canadian side. And they were just, like, eating donuts and walking. And they're like, we're good. Have a great time. Like, what a vibe.
- [24:12]
A
Please connect me with them. Are you binging any TV shows right now or on that day off?
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B
We just finished. I'm looking for a new one. So if anybody has any suggestions, that's like humor. Dark humor is my jam. So we finished Hacks, which I adore. Oh, my gosh. So good. And finally finished Righteous Gemstones, which I was deeply disappointed there wasn't another season when we got to the last episode.
- [24:37]
A
Those are great ones. And are you. Is there any Michigan specific food that you're eating on that day or that we need to be eating?
- [24:44]
B
Ooh, that you need to be eating. So Vernor's ginger ale is pretty unique to Michigan. It has a very distinct flavor, unlike, you know, Schweppes or the really sharp ginger ale. This has more of kind of a vanilla barrel flavor to it. So it's just really good. And we also, fun fact, we provide more potatoes for potato chips than any state in the country. So Great Lakes Potato Chips makes a purple potato with a purple potato that was invented at Michigan State University. And it has high in antioxidants and it is bright purple.
- [25:20]
A
That's very impressive. By the way, chatgpt suggested I ask you which sweet is better, Vernors or Sanders? Hot fudge.
- [25:29]
B
Oh, burners.
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A
Burners is a ginger ale, though.
- [25:32]
B
Yeah, it's a ginger ale. It's weird. The ChatGPT was like fudge or ginger ale. Yeah, that's as if those are the same thing. AI is not quite there yet.
- [25:40]
A
Yeah, they're not. They're not quite there yet. Okay, what's the best advice you've gotten and who is it from?
- [25:47]
B
The best advice I've gotten? I had a fourth grade teacher who this is probably telling on myself a little bit, But I have ADHD. I did not know this when I was in fourth grade. So I owed 52 homework assignments. And a letter was sent home to my mom. And I couldn't go to the picnic unless. Unless my mom signed this letter saying she knew that I owed all these homework assignments. And I forged my mom's signature, which I brought it back in. And my teacher knew my mom so well because my mom was a homeroom mom. Like, she knew I was in so much deep shit when I got home that my teacher, knowing this and not wanting to pile on, she pulled me aside and she was like, you know, that was a really good signature, and you're a really good artist, and you should lean into. She's like, you know, maybe not this. This wasn't it, but explore that, because that's a talent you have. So I don't know if that was the best advice, but just encouraged. I like that she recognized that I was going to be in trouble and found a way to not pile onto it and encourage me to be artistic.
- [26:46]
A
I think that's pretty good advice. All right, now we're going to get a little bit more into policy and the Democratic Party overall today. So I don't know factually if it's true, but the Democratic Party is at the lowest it's probably ever been or it's been in a long time. What. What are they doing wrong today? You know, why aren't they reaching people? And why have they lost so much trust?
- [27:10]
B
You know, I think a lot of it boils down to listening and being out in community. And for better or for worse, Donald Trump has taken over the GOP and runs the presidency and the entire party like it's a reality TV show, because that's what he knows, right? There's a reason that half of the Cabinet comes from Fox News, and it's programmed effectively, if you think about it that way, from sunup to sundown down with every press conference. And I get so angry how good a lot of the White House Instagram posts are. Like, the content is obviously terrible, but the production is good and it tells a good story. And I'm like, I look at it like, oh, God, makes me want to tear my hair out. They are really good at understanding how to capture the attention economy. This is something I've heard, like, Chris Hayes talk about for Democrats. I had a constituent once say to me, it feels like Republicans and Democrats are sitting down at a table to play chat chess. Republicans have flipped the table over and set the house on fire. And Democrats are still planning our next move. So, like, this refusal to accept that things are different and wanting to just adhere to the rules and the norms. And we always talk about process and procedure, and that doesn't connect with people who don't eat, sleep, and breathe politics all day long, which is 90 plus percent of people. So we have to be willing to get out of our legislative chambers and get out of Washington and get out of the bubble. I mean, there's a reason why we are doing this brewery tour. Like, yes, it's fun and it's different, but we've had so many people Come who I would never see at a Democratic club meeting, at an indivisible meeting, at a rally, at a town hall, especially younger people. And we've had a lot of young men come, which that's been a big kind of, why are young men leaving the party? You show up and you ask. I had an interaction with a young man, probably a little bit younger than me, who came out to our Ann Arbor brewery tour stop. And he asked me kind of where I was at on some policy that might benefit young men like him. And I threw out a tax policy idea on a more fair tax policy. And what I threw out as an idea was maybe instead of talking about a millionaire or wealth tax, could we flip it on its head and say, okay, if you make, make $70,000 a year or under, you pay no income tax. And we try to rebuild the middle class. Same idea, but we're talking about it differently. And then I asked him, I said, what do you think? What do you think about that? And he was so taken aback. He just looked at me and he's like, wait a second, you, you want to know what I think? I said, yeah. And he thought about it for a minute and he came back and he said, you know, I, I see where you're going, but I can tell you, men like me, we don't want to feel like it's a handicap out. We want a fairer structure, but we want to do it ourselves. You know, we don't want to be given anything. We want to earn it. And I feel like that has been lost. And it was this exchange that now I'm going back and I'm thinking, okay, how can we revise this policy? Taking in his feedback. And he said in the middle of this event, he said, I just got to tell you, it was so cool that you asked. And just that, I mean, just showing up and really listening and genuinely caring about what the answer is instead of lecturing people with 30 policy points. And I think about it as simple as this. My brother in law whose birthday is today, so happy birthday. Logan is a real estate agent. And he put it really simply, he's like, mal, this is a popularity contest and people will not vote for you guys if they don't like you and trust you. And that means you have to build relationships first. And I think if you polled a majority of voters who are not the most political, they probably couldn't tell you what Barack Obama's policies were or what Donald Trump's policies are, but they vote for them because they like Them. So as a party, I think the first thing we got to do is figure out how do we build real human relationships with people and go out and meet them and talk to them and not judge them and listen to them and be willing to offer up their ideas instead of ours.
- [31:14]
A
That's so, so well said. You brought up an interesting point with the gentleman. You were just speaking about how he, you know, he didn't a handout and they wanted to be, you know, working for something. Do you what's your take and perspective on UBI and, and, and then I also want to kind of dub that, that into a little bit of AI itself and how those kind of play together.
- [31:36]
B
Yeah, you know, I think it's, it's a good idea that misses that gap that this young man identified that, you know, basically from Reagan on. We have now been living in this 50 year experiment of trickle down economics that simply does not work. We've had greater income inequality than any other generation before. You know, the average home price for my parents generation was $200,000. The average home price now is something like $490,000. People simply cannot afford things if they're doing the same amount of work that that the previous generation did. I don't know that starting with a universal basic income fixes that it's a band aid. And you would continue to kind of see everything spiral the way that it does. And I really take this, this man's feedback to heart of like, I don't want a handout, I want to earn it. I just want it to be fair so that if you do everything right and there's a reason that I, I led in my opening remarks about saying like, I graduated from college, I graduated from a great university and I was sleeping in the back of my car because there are so many people who, you know, Donald Trump, Trump was the symptom, not the cause. And that things have been broken for people for a really long time under both parties. And we have to acknowledge that. And I think more than, you know, let's put a band aid on it so that people have incomes. Like we got to figure out a fairer system so that people can afford housing and afford saving for retirement. And we're not giving Elon Musk. I mean, what were the numbers this week? $460 billion. I mean, that's the state of Michigan's budget for 10 million people for an entire year, inclusive of all of our education and infrastructure. And health care is $80 billion. That's insane. So I think we have to fix the system so that people feel like they're getting a fair shot and that they can earn the American dream like our parents could.
- [33:34]
A
How concerned are you about AI? How it's going to affect your, you know, the, the people you represent? You know, obviously factories have been affected by AI in many ways as robots come into play. Where's your mind right now? Obviously everybody's sort of learning every day as we go on. But what are some of the sort of either big ideas you're thinking about or with most concerns?
- [34:03]
B
Yeah, I think, look, it's here and we have to learn how to live with it and deal with it and work around it and work with it. If we've learned anything, it's, you know, technology is going to move forward no matter what happens. And I think regulatory policy has always been behind technological advancements, maybe because the average age of many legislators is significantly older than people who are working on these technologies. But I would say that my concern with AI is more so in white collar spaces where people may not be anticipating the disruption that if you were told that, that you have to go to college, you have to become a software engineer and that's your key to success. What we are seeing right now is some of the industry areas with the highest amount of layoffs are software engineers, because AI can do that work now. So something that we've done in Michigan that I love, that I would want to bring up to the federal level is we have vastly expanded through our Department of Labor and Economic Opportunity certified apprenticeship program programs. So they're modeled after apprenticeships in, in the trades, but for many different things. So we now have certified apprenticeships in Michigan in beer making and winemaking and tourism and hospitality and agritech and beekeeping. So I think of what can we do to make sure people have the tools to be nimble in their careers so that if there's a massive disruption in AI, you don't have to go back to school school for two years or four years to start over, because who can afford that and who has time for that? But maybe you can get into an apprenticeship and try something that you find becomes a career you really love. Like maybe there is a coder out there who really wants to be a beekeeper, but never thought that was possible. You take on this certified apprenticeship, you have an entirely new career that it is very unlikely that AI is going to disrupt in the future because it is more hands on. So that's how I think about it, is how do we grow the certified apprenticeship program? So that people have the ability to change their career maybe even multiple times throughout their lives so that they're not stuck if there are technological changes that disrupt the workforce.
- [36:20]
A
I think that that's well said. And it's here. It's people are need to figure out how to use it and how to harness it and to make them more productive and more successful. And obviously there are a lot of jobs it's going to wipe out in its path, but hopefully, like so many other technological inventions that will lead to positive assets of productivity. I guess speaking about that, how do you. What's your sell to the people of Michigan and sort of the state of the economy and how you're going to grow it and what areas of why it's. How it's not working for people and how if you win, how it can work better potentially.
- [36:58]
B
Yeah. So Michigan in the 1980s, five of the top 10 metro regions in the entire country for median household income were here in Michigan. Michigan. So on the whole, we were the most prosperous state in the country for our residents. And I think that's why the idea of Make America Great again was so compelling in a state like ours. Because today, zero of the top 10 metro regions for median household income are Michigan. Our median household income is declining. The average income for a single Michigander now is $39,000, which you can't afford any, anything on that salary. We have been so singularly tied to the auto industry. And when it's booming, we do well. When it crashes, we crash. And when I came into the legislature, we were still reeling with the impacts of the 2007, 2009 recession and trying to build back what I've seen happen here in Michigan. And I am the chair of the state Senate Economic and Community Development Committee. So this has been the bulk of my work for seven years is Michigan tries to capture the prosperity of our past by doing the same things we did in the past without recognizing that the world has changed, the workforce has changed. What a lot of people don't know is Michigan is also the number six state in the country for new clean energy jobs. And we passed with the strongest clean energy legislation in the Midwest. What better state than the Great Lakes state that has 85% of the world's fresh or the nation's fresh water supply to lean into? How do we solve climate change and do it alongside industry and manufacturing in a way that is sustainable in real and we can replicate elsewhere? So I have introduced legislation on the state level with State Senator John DeMoose who's a conservative Republican from Northern Michigan to compel the creation of a 10 year comprehensive economic development strategy that is less about jobs created, which is the traditional metric for large scale manufacturing plants and large economic incentives. And more, how do we raise median household incomes? How do we grow our population so there are more young people staying in the state? How do we invest in transit and have access to housing and decentralized so that we're investing more in small businesses, entrepreneurs, startups. We have so many great startups coming out of msu, University of Michigan, Michigan Tech, Northern, I mean great universities. But a lot of these startups can't grow in Michigan because the talent isn't here. So how can we bring more venture capital into the state? How can we invest in things like regional transit where it makes sense knowing that young people may not want to own a car and pay for insurance. So that's my pitch is I also see that we are really at the whims of what comes down at us from the federal level. So the CHIPS act was fantastic, but it meant we were competing for another large scale manufacturing plant. And what just happened here in Michigan was Sandisk was ready to invest billions of dollars in the state for a new manufacturing facility. But with the change in the administration and the tariff tariffs, they pulled out. So now we're left holding the bag. We've invested $250 million in this site just outside of Flint. And that to me says okay, we got a plan so that we diversify our economy and invest more in what is going to be the next Ford and the next GM and how can we build it right here?
- [40:20]
A
Partisanship is obviously something on the top of everybody's mind where we've never been more divided. Oh sorry, we haven't been this divided in a long time in our country. I think people forget this country has had a lot of ups and downs in short life of 250 years. But it's on everybody's mind and I'm sure in Michigan you're, you're in some ways on the front line of it. So what are some things you think that can be done to sort of battle that both in personal lives and also how you're dealing with it in, in the political arena?
- [40:55]
B
Yeah, I mean look, I, I do think a lot of it comes from the incentive and reward structure in our campaigns. We have to overturn Citizens United. We have to get dark money out of politics. You should not be able to trade stocks if you are a member of Congress and get wealthy off of your position. In public office. And there was a really interesting interview that I listened to a few years ago on the Hidden Brain podcast with Eitan Hirsch, who is a political scientist who I actually interviewed for much book. And he said that with the rise of small dollar donations online, which many of us view and I think is a very good thing, you know, democratizing campaigns, but the incentive structure is to have that viral moment and to throw a punch and to be in a fight constantly, because that conflict is what gets people to donate 5 or 10 or $20 to you and you grow these kind of careers. And I will say, you know, as a Democrat, I don't think we need a Nancy Mace of the the left. We. I don't want to be arguing all the time and trying to pick fights and make culture wars. So the incentive structure has to change. And I think that comes from. From vastly changing our campaign finance structure. Beyond that, my approach is I will sit down with everybody on both sides of the aisle, and if you want to work together genuinely, let's work together. I mentioned John DeMoose, who I'm working with on, on economic development work. He will say in public, and I've heard him say it, that there are events in Maller's life that led her to become a strong Democrat, and there are events in my life that led me to become a conservative Republican. And there are some issues where we're never going to agree and we debate, we do it respectfully. But on the issues where we do agree, let's work together because that's our job. He and I spoke at the Northern Michigan Policy Conference on a panel about economic development. And we had so many people come up to us afterwards to say not only how refreshing it was to see us working together, but that you could tell we are genuinely friends. And modeling more of that is something that's important. But I also don't believe in continuing to offer olive branches to people who don't want to work with you, because there are some colleagues of mine on the other side of the aisle who don't want to work with me at all. You know, the woman who accused me of being a groomer and a pedophile like, does not want to work with me. And we also need to know how to stand up and kind of push back and very clearly communicate with people. People who does want to work together and who doesn't. And I will never waver in my values or my beliefs. And agreeing to disagree on, on the areas where we don't is, I think, something that we just we don't celebrate enough. But that's my goal is, you know, I want to model it where I can. And I've had really good feedback from people who just say how refreshing it is to see people on polar opposite ends of the aisle style, genuinely be friends and work for Michiganders.
- [43:56]
A
I think that's great. Yeah, I, you know, I, right before last election, I sort of couldn't talk to someone who voted for Trump and I just couldn't have a conversation. I sort of just wrote them off and I realized that was not the right approach. And it was my responsibility to be able to reach out to people and try and understand what I was missing and find the kind of common ground. That being said, it's interesting because my original goal with Lunch with Jamie and the Jamie's List community was to create, get outside the echo chamber, create a safe space where people could talk with different points of views and Republicans and Democrats and whatnot. And now we're living in a place where the Democratic tent has gotten so confusing. And even trying to have a conversation amongst Democrats has gotten very challenging. I mean, look what's happening in New York City with the mayoral race and across the board. What are you kind of seeing amongst your, your fellow Democrats and how are you handling that challenge?
- [44:52]
B
So I have always been very practical and pragmatic. I mean, I got into office defeating a Republican in a Republican district. And then I was redistricted in our last redistricting into the most Democratic district in the state. I now represent about a quarter of the city of Detroit and some of the inner ring suburbs. My job has always been to be responsive to the needs of my constituents. Constituents. And on really fundamental values and rights issues like reproductive rights and gun violence prevention, I have been very aggressive. But, you know, I don't think anybody would say economic development is the most progressive, like lefty issue of how do we grow small businesses and entrepreneurship and, and all of that. So across the board, I want to make sure that I am addressing everybody's needs because ultimately that's my job. Job is not just to kind of pick my lane and stay there, but to ask questions and be curious and hear what keeps you up at night and what do you need. And as a party, we have to get to a place where we recognize the difference between malice and accidents. We gotta stop canceling people for using the wrong language. Like there's a difference between people who genuinely want to proactively hate somebody and keep them out and somebody who has maybe never met somebody who's not like them and might use the wrong terminology and might not be there on 100% of our things. That's the, I think, unique responsibility of the Democratic Party is we are a big tent party and we have a lot of ideas and we have to be able to kind of stitch this coalition together. And that's why I think anchoring how we move forward has to be in how do we restore the American dream? How do people get back to a place where if they work hard, they can have a house and support their family and have their basic move needs met and acknowledge that the status quo wasn't working even within our own party. And I think that is a way that we can get a lot of people together. Because when you get into some of the social issues and the people who are under attack, my fundamental belief is we protect everybody when we help 90, 100% of people meet their basic needs. Because what Donald Trump did was he tapped into people's very rightful anger about the fact they can't afford a house and they can't support their family and they're not doing as well as they wanted. And instead of solving that problem, he weaponized it against somebody else. Like, you're not doing well and it's immigrant's fault. You're not doing well and it's a trans kid's fault. And the way we protect everybody is solving those issues at a moment when Donald Trump and the Republicans are not.
- [47:29]
A
If we lived in a country where you could legally, with a stroke of a pen, institute a policy and Mallory McMorrow was president tomorrow, what is that first thing you're doing?
- [47:44]
B
Universal paid leave. I would be the only Democratic mom of a young child in the US Senate. Katie Britt is the only mom of a school age child in the Senate right now. And it is appalling that we are the only industrialized nation in the entire world with zero guaranteed paid leave. So when you hear people haranguing about the birth rate and why aren't people starting families? It's too damn expensive. And we have to get to a place where we are supporting moms and women and families so that you don't have to choose between kids and your career. And we fight back against this shift on the other side of people thinking, you know, trad wives and going back to kind of the traditional 1950s setup is more appealing because right now the system is not working right.
- [48:35]
A
I think that's great. It's something. As the father of two daughters, I would think that I would have crossed my mind on when I think about those policies, but I hadn't. And there was somebody else who I had had once before who said, you know, universal childcare being another of their first things. It's wild. We're going to a couple of questions from our members from Will Knox. How best would you say to combat the constant lies and illegal actions that's happening? And then secondly, he wants to know how to get Zingerman's to Californ, California.
- [49:08]
B
Amazing. I don't know if they're on Gold Belly. I don't know. I could ask them. Zingerman's is delicious. For those who don't know, it's a deli in Ann Arbor. Best sandwiches and bread you'll ever have. I do think they sell some of their their things online, but I will work on that. On the first question, how do we combat a lot of the lies? I think that our instinct is to just pummel people with information and research. Like, did you see this? Did you see the story? Did you see this link? I was up in Antrim county yesterday, which is one of the deepest red counties in Michigan, and the attendee said, what should be the one thing we do for the next two years before this election? And what I said was, we all have one or two people in our lives who we have been avoiding having conversations with for, let's be honest, the last 10 years. And it is much easier sometimes to talk to people we don't know. So we sign up, up to do phone banking and do postcards and come out to rallies and when the hardest thing is having that conversation with somebody we love who might disagree with us. So what I said to this group is like, don't lead with politics right away, but maintaining those relationships so that people don't feel like they're being cut off because they disagree with you politically. Keep inviting them over for dinner, keep having a coffee, keep having a beer and. And I spoke to a guy up there who said he has joined Euchre Club, which is very popular here in Michigan with all Trumpy dudes in northern Michigan. And he's starting to see they don't talk about politics, but every now and then one guy in the group is like, did you see this thing Trump did? Or like, have you seen what he's doing with ice? It's not okay. And there will be an opening for us to then come in, but it has to come from a place of trust in relationships first and not constantly trying to pump pummel people with responses to all the misinformation because we have to recognize it is an intentional strategy to unleash a fire hose of bad information all day, every day. And we can't play whack a mole with all of it. We can keep relationships with people who the door will open, I promise you, and then we can be there and they already trust us.
- [51:16]
A
I. I think that's really well said. One more question from Doug Miller, who his question relates to what can we do to regain some sense of normalizing our lives while at the same time deal with the political world that has taken over our daily lives? And we talk a lot about action here and what people can do. And I think people want to do stuff, but at the same time, I don't think it's fair to make them feel like 247 they should be fighting the good fight. It's like they have to do. But what are things that you think people should be doing or can be doing?
- [51:47]
B
So you gotta pace yourself. And I will be the first to say I hate with the fire of a thousand suns when I hear politicians say this is the most important election of our lifetimes. Because it just implies that if you vote hard enough or if we just do this one campaign, this one last time, then everything's going to be fixed and we will go back to normal. And that's a lie. You know, it sets everybody up to be disappointed. We have to change our mindset and realize that civic engagement is a lifetime work. And that means we got to pace ourselves. So what can you do every single day that you're going to do every day for the rest of your life that that is sustainable? I advise people to find their one issue, the one thing that really moves you in. In my book, I interviewed Shannon Watts, who was the founder of Moms Demand Action, and Brandon Wolf, who was a Pulse nightclub shooting survivor. Very different tracks that they kind of found their way to the same issue. But if you give yourself permission to not ignore, but let go of every other issue and trust that somebody else is going to have that issue that's going to be their one thing, then you don't have to send an email to your congressperson on every single issue or make a phone call or, you know, go on five calls or come to every single rally. And the way I think about it is just like you would learn any skill. Like, if I want to become a chef and play a musical instrument and run a marathon and, you know, learn to sing off opera. If I try all of that, I'm going to suck at all of them. But if I go deep on one thing and commit time and energy and effort, I'm going to build up mastery. And the same thing is true for civic engagement. So if you pick your own issue, find a group that already advocates on that issue that you could join and then maybe they have a meeting, maybe it's in your town, maybe you can join it and there's a meeting once a month and you find like minded people and you learn how to engage with elected officials. And you will see over time you are actually making a real impact and making change and giving yourself time to check out and take care of yourself. You know, for me, it's my one day off and my introvert day, but you got to do it and just recognize this is a lifetime of work and we can't just wash our hands at the end of the election and say, I'm done. I did everything. Because then it's going to fall apart. It's a push and pull.
- [54:09]
A
Cory Booker has a great quote. Never let your inability to do everything undermine your determined to do something, something. And yeah, I think that's, you know, nobody can do everything. Okay, we're going to do a rapid fire, one word, answered a couple questions and then you're going to take us home. Ready for it?
- [54:27]
B
I'm ready.
- [54:28]
A
All right. Coffee or tea?
- [54:30]
B
Coffee.
- [54:31]
A
City or countryside?
- [54:36]
B
Depends on the day. Extrovert day. City. Introvert day. Countryside.
- [54:40]
A
All right, I'm gonna let you give you. Give you an out there. Text or call?
- [54:46]
B
Text.
- [54:47]
A
Early bird or night owl?
- [54:49]
B
Early bird. After I turned 30, weirdly, it switched over.
- [54:52]
A
Sweet or savory?
- [54:53]
B
Sweet.
- [54:54]
A
IPhone or Android?
- [54:57]
B
Now? IPhone. Because my husband told me he would throw my phone out of the car and run it over. For the safety, the sanity of my marriage.
- [55:05]
A
Door knocking or phone banking?
- [55:07]
B
Door knocking. I've been invited into so many dinners.
- [55:12]
A
Podcast or music?
- [55:15]
B
Music.
- [55:17]
A
Beach or city?
- [55:19]
B
Beach.
- [55:21]
A
Plain aisle or window seat?
- [55:23]
B
Window.
- [55:24]
A
All right, you've got. You. You. You pass with flying colors. A.
- [55:29]
B
All right.
- [55:30]
A
Okay, last question. And I really appreciate you joining us and being here and running and putting yourself out there and your family. It is one of the most thankless jobs there is, even more now than ever. And it's so hard. And I just, I really thank you for what you're doing and all the hard work you put into it. So in one sentence, can you sum up what the Democratic Party stands for?
- [56:07]
B
Making life better.
- [56:10]
A
I love that. I agree. That's why I'm. That's why I'm a proud Democrat. Mallory. Thank you. Please let everybody know how they can help you as we finish up here. And I look forward to seeing you in person someday, not just over the, the the computer.
- [56:25]
B
Absolutely not in little screens. All right. You can find out more at mcmorrow for michigan.com you can donate sign up to volunteer Spread the word on social media. This is going to be one of the most important races in the country and we'd love to have your help.
- [56:37]
A
Thank you and look forward to seeing everybody again on another Meet the Candidates.
- [56:42]
B
Bye.
- [56:42]
A
Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Lunch with Jamie. As always, be sure to subscribe to my newsletter@jamieslist.com for my thoughts on all things food, pop culture, politics and more. And remember to join these online conversations and ask my guests questions in real time. Sign up to get a paid subscriber. You can listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Audible and be sure to leave a review. Thanks and see you next time.