← Lunch with Jamie
Lunch with Jamie
The Man Suing Trump 67 Times (And Winning) | California's Attorney General Rob Bonta
00:57:17
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- [00:04]
A
Today my guest is Attorney General Rob Bonta from California. Rob has become one of the standard bearers for attorneys general. He is somebody who's fought consistently at his time in California for everybody. Everything from, you know, gun related cases to fighting gak against the federal government after sending troops into our state. You know, he is exactly the type of person that you want fighting for you. He is focused, he is hard working, he's clear eyed. He's not messing around. There's no case that's too big for him to tackle at the same time, no issue that's too small. This job is a massive job. You know what, nationally and federally, when between Janet Reno and Eric Holder, people started to really pay attention to this job. But it really became the Trump presidency where the state AGs really became front and center. And Rob, along with Letitia James and Jeff Jackson and Dana Nestle have been some of the best and the brightest. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. He really impressed me. You also got to learn a little about him. If you listen, you're going to learn why Lupi fiasco is important to him. Not a name I thought would come up in this conversation, but I hope you enjoy it. Now here's my conversation with California Attorney General Rob Bonta. Attorney General Bonta, welcome to lunch with Jamie.
- [01:44]
B
Thank you. Good.
- [01:47]
A
I always start with the toughest question, which for you could come so many different, so many different avenues and only different lanes, which is although we're not having lunch, if I was visiting you up in Sacramento, where, where would we be eating? Where would you taking me to dinner or where would we be having lunch?
- [02:06]
B
I love this place called Mikuni. It's a sushi restaurant and you can get all sorts of delicious sushi using my, my fave. I, I go for sashimi sometimes, but there's a little something for everyone. It was a place that started in the town that I grew up in. So when, when I was growing up in a suburb called Fair Oaks, I'd go there with my family to celebrate birthdays and graduations. And then it's expanded and grown. It still exists today. So I went away for a while to the east coast and other places and came back to Sacramento as a legislator. And lo and behold, Mikuni was still there. So it's got a special place in my heart and delicious food.
- [02:43]
A
I love that. Where did you actually grow up?
- [02:46]
B
Well, I was born in the Philippines and spent time in the headquarters of the United Farm Workers of America in La Paz before landing in Sacramento in the suburbs by first grade, and I was there through 12th grade before going away to college. So most of my formative years were there. It's a suburb of Sacramento called Fair Oaks. A small township. Small, small little town, sort of at the time was a bedroom community. A lot of folks like my parents who worked in downtown Sacramento, lived there, had good schools, good school district. My parents picked it for the schools for me. My brother, my sister and my parents were state employees.
- [03:24]
A
So there's so many complex topics to talk to you about, but I want to sort of set the table a little bit because I think your role, although, has become more and more prominent and your job, I should say the Attorney General's job has become much more prominent. And I'm curious if you think you can kind of pinpoint when that role became something that more people were paying attention to and that job, I mean, I was thinking about it in preparation for this, and to me it feels a little bit like Eric Holder. And during that era, maybe my, you know, you know, my history is a little off, but in popular culture, is that a turning point in this role? There's something else I'm missing. What would your take be?
- [04:13]
B
Well, I think the United States Attorney General has always had quite a bit of attention and focus. You know, I remember Janet Reno and I know there were others since then, but that's at the federal level, I think at the state level, you know, the role is always important. It affects a lot of people's daily lives and maybe ways that they don't always appreciate. And maybe there wasn't a lot of fanfare in the past, but I really saw, and I called it the rise of the AGS. And referring to the state AGS in 2016-2020 with the Trump administration, Trump won. And that's really when the state AGs exerted, they started exerting invisible ways in meaningful ways that impacted national policy and protected people from unlawful attacks by the president, unconstitutional attacks by the President at that time, things like there were attacks on the Affordable Care act, on Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, daca, other things. There was a citizenship question in the census that was proposed. You may remember that. That's what I really thought was the rise of the ags. The state ags were on the front lines, exerting their state sovereignty, going to court and winning consistently when there was an out of control, blatant and brazen, consistent and frequent lawbreaker in the White House in the form of Trump 1.0. So that's where it really rose in my estimation, I think it kind of kicked the role into another gear where it was just front lines, visible, front page, high stakes, bright lights are on and the state AGs were delivering. And Trump 2.0 is more of the same, actually. More. There's double the lawsuits, double the law breaking, high speed, high volume, high stakes. Our elections hang in the balance. Constitutional rights like voting rights and birthright citizenship, billions of dollars in funding. We protected $200 billion of funding for California so far. That's when I think the state ages. And really, at least in my own, my own perception rose to another level.
- [06:21]
A
That makes total sense. And you know, I think, you know, you just mentioned something which I think is as I learn more about, you know, your role and your job and this job, what you're dealing with on a daily basis is just mind boggling. I mean, I produce movies and the majority of my, my time when I'm not hosting a podcast and you know, I get a lot of curve balls thrown at me, right? You know, a star falls out, money falls out, a location falls through that is slightly less stakes than your, in your role and as you fight for the 39 people, 39 million people of California. But I'm just curious to whether, you know, you can walk us through a little bit of the first half of this day or on your kind of average day, what the range of cases and topics and subjects you and your office are handling.
- [07:18]
B
Well, it's everything, which I love. When I first got into elected office, this is my fourth elected office. I've been in elected office for 20 years almost. I started with the healthcare district board and then city council, state legislature, and now ag. Someone told me when I got to my first elected office, they said you can't do everything. Focus on one or two things, maybe three. Make those your signature issues, issues, you'll be known for doing those things and leave the rest to someone else. And I've never followed that advice, I never will. I always believe that we can do more for the people that we serve and that we can't sort of chart a set of static priorities in a strategy session and then leave it at that. If the world is changing and different risks and threats are occurring and people are worried about different things. If I charted my priorities and stuck with him before Trump took office, I would never be protecting the people of California from Trump's unlawfulness. And so my goal is to be the people's champion, make their fights, my fights, be right by their side on all the issues that are important to them right now, a lot of that's affordability and the protection of democracy. Public safety, of course, as well. But we do it all, which I love. We're engaged in public safety. That's job number one, two and three. We're tackling human trafficking and fentanyl trafficking and hate crimes, organized retail crime. Today I just came from a press conference with a local police department and a local county DA on a cold case that we work with them to crack and brought to justice a rapist, someone involved in sexual assault of a victim from years ago, where we were able to do some DNA testing and identify the perpetrator. We just got him extradited from Texas and he was arraigned yesterday. So we do that. And then I got briefed later today on a lawsuit that we're filing tomorrow against trump. It's our 67th lawsuit. So we go from a local cold case to a lawsuit against the President of the United States on an issue of national importance and then everything in between. But broadly, I'm the chief law officer of the state of California. I protect the constitutional rights, civil rights, consumer rights of the people of the state. I mentioned public safety. We also do a lot of gun safety and gun prevention work, gun violence prevention work. We are promoting the building of more housing consistent with California's housing laws and enforcing those laws mostly with cities, local jurisdictions who are not following them and not building their fair share. We're making sure there's true access to high quality, affordable health care by making sure that all the laws in the health care space are followed. We're involved in climate action. We have some lawsuits against some of the, the biggest polluters and biggest liars who have deceived Californians with respect to climate change and the myth of plastic recycling. We're involved in the antitrust space, which I know we'll talk about, and exerting our role in making sure that laws aren't broken with respect to corporate consolidation and anti competitive conduct. We're protecting workers and protecting labor rights. And so we do it all. And that's what I love. Whatever might be an issue in a Californian's life that they're struggling with, I have a chance to help provide a solution and make that person's life better. And I see every day in this role as a privilege and honor to be able to serve, to be able to give something back. I always wanted to have a say in our future, to be able to contribute to where we go from here, help write the next chapter and in the role of attorney General for the biggest state in the nation, the biggest state department of justice in the nation. I have this incredible gift that I'm just honored to be able to serve in every day.
- [11:05]
A
Yeah, well, you're doing a great job as a resident of California, so thank you for all your hard work. What is the magnitude of the size of the office, out of curiosity? I mean, how many people work under your domain?
- [11:19]
B
6000 employees, 1200 attorneys, $1.3 billion a year annual budget. So big team, big budget. We do a lot of civil law enforcement, so civil rights and lawsuits that involve injunctive relief, which is change of behavior or monetary damages. We also have a criminal side. We have our own law enforcement agents, special agents, and then we also have a whole prosecuting team. Sometimes we prosecute cases that go to trial, but mostly we do the majority of the criminal appeals throughout the state of California. So, you know, big team, civil side of the house, criminal side of the house, law enforcement side of the House. A lot of reach, you know, a lot of ability to really make people's lives better.
- [12:12]
A
Yeah, that's a massive team. But for the breadth of what you're working on, it's probably never enough. What's the last case or issue that sort of you really lost sleep over or something? I mean, it's probably challenging for you because there's so many things on a daily basis and the individual cases probably are the toughest. Right. But just I'm curious, is there what's something that really stood out to you?
- [12:37]
B
The National Guard coming to la, first one in the nation. The militarization of our streets right here in the biggest city, you know, in the biggest blue state in the nation. And, you know, just having that focus that there was an ice surge along with a massive deployment of unlawfully, as it turned out, federalized National Guard as well as Marines. And they were on the streets every day in la. And this idea of this kind of militarization of our cities by our own federal government is something that is anathema to who we are. It's prohibited under our law by the Posse Comitatus act, at least to engage in civilization. Criminal. I'm sorry, excuse me, criminal enforcement of civilians. And that was kind of a, you know, every minute it was. There was like a tick tock on that where, you know, what the developments were, every minute, where the deployment was, what was happening, going to court and moving to stop and block the federalization, getting an order, you know, that same week and then going to trial soon thereafter on the issue of this Posse Comitatus act, the inability to enforce criminal law by the military on American soil. And we won every step of the way at the trial level. And there was so much at stake because President Trump was talking about doing the same thing in cities across the country. So a lot of hung in the balance. You know, if we were able to stop it in California, then we'd be able to stop it elsewhere. And he ended up deploying in other cities like D.C. even, and Chicago and Portland. And we all work together to work the case up to the US Supreme Court and have a final order stopping him from this unlawful deployment and getting the military, or the military and the federalized National Guard out of our state. So that one, you know, I do sleep well because I know my team is doing great work and we feel that we're prepared and we got things under control. But that one had some late nights and early mornings and, you know, amongst our team all nighters to deliver what we needed to do and meet the moment and rise to the occasion for the people of our state.
- [15:03]
A
Yeah, that was a moment, as an Angeleno, that I was really proud of you, of Governor Newsom and of Mayor Bass. You know, I think that was, you know, nothing anybody would have expected when you set out in this role even after Trump won, maybe that that would be top of your issues. And it takes a lot for you guys to fight back, and you really, really did it. And I mean, to see the guards on the, and the ICE officers on the streets of L. A and to see Mayor Bass confronting them in MacArthur Park, I think was a real, real watershed moment in the sort of, hey, you know, these cities and these states actually have a lot more power than we even thought, to some extent, 100%,
- [15:46]
B
you know, and I think some people were, you know, resigned to the, to the possibility, maybe even probability that the Trump would just be able to do what he want, what he wants, and, and there wouldn't be guardrails and, and that these were our norms and that he decided to just not follow. And we couldn't stop them. And we said, not so fast. There are laws here. Everyone's got to follow them, even, and perhaps especially the President of the United States needs to follow those laws. And so that's sort of our shield and our language and our bread and butter when we go to court. The law, the facts, we just present it dispassionately to the court to make sure that the president is not exerting authority that he doesn't have, not overreaching and that was a way that we were able to do that. I don't think a lot of people would thought, you know, if Trump comes with the National Guard, then the AG is going to stop him. I think we had to show that we could. And I know we're going to talk about antitrust, but I think people are thinking the same thing in the antitrust space. If the federal government, the US doj, the FTC aren't engaged in tackling this unlawful conduct, and they traditionally have, and they have the biggest teams and the most resources, then who's going to stop them? If Trump wants to usher these unlawful mergers through and bark orders at Brendan Carr to allow nexstar Tegnet to merge, who's going to stop them? Well, the answer is ags, and some people just still don't believe it until they see it. So we're not trying to convince anyone to believe something or not. We're just taking action based on the authority that we have and the unlawful conduct that we see. But the National Guard was a big one. And, you know, we defended Prop 50 all the way up to the U.S. supreme Court. That was a big one. The lawful redistricting by California voters here to respond to the partisan gerrymandering in Texas that Trump asked Governor Abbott to deliver for him. We were able to strike down the unlawful tariffs. That was really Trump's centerpiece economic policy, but it was raising costs and increasing unaffordability for Californians, and we took that one to the U.S. supreme Court and won. There's been some really big victories that we've been able to deliver for the people of the state. They're massive losses for Trump, but more importantly, they're wins for Californians for their affordability, for the quality of life, for the rule of law, for the Constitution, for our democracy.
- [18:18]
A
Thank you for that and all that work on those issues. I'm the eternal optimist. So I see a future when Donald Trump is no longer in office where a fair amount of these irregular aspects of how this Trump administration and the previous one have worked. Go back to the way the founders set up the country to work, warts and all. Do you think, are there certain things that are here to stay that you just don't see going back to some ways the way they were, or there's certain things that you, you're confident that will, will change? I mean, gerrymandering is a great example. I mean, nobody likes gerrymandering. I mean, we all, we all wish it was. You know, there was there was no partisan districts and it just was split up into some sort of structure that was really, you know, honest and, and everybody was represented. I'm hopeful that California goes back to a more even, you know, district, you know, set up. But, you know, unfortunately, this new type of politics has made this challenging. What, you know, whether it's gerrymandering or other areas, do you see us being able to go back to some of the things that we would have liked to see and then doubling down? Right. You know, there's issues like Citizens United that, you know, need to, need to get rid of. We need to get money out of politics better what we could. This is not, I don't want this too open ended, but are there certain things that you, you can see when Trump's out of office? Hard to know who, who will come into office, but that where you, you think we may be able to get the ship back on course?
- [19:58]
B
Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I think this is a unique moment led by a leader that's unique in, in terms of the cult of personality that he is able to advance and the following that he's got, the base that he has. I don't think anyone will be the same. I think sort of the MAGA movement will continue. But Trump has been unique in some ways and uniquely law breaking, uniquely an offender of the Constitution. And the tide are really turning right now in multiple ways, both with respect to Trump's agenda getting blocked in court and the US Supreme Court, which maybe he and maybe even others thought would be his rubber stamp to support him. I've had people say you might win at the district court level, the trial level, you might even win at the intermediate appellate court level. But if you get to the U.S. supreme Court, you're in trouble because that's Trump's U.S. supreme Court. I never thought that. I thought if we had the law, we had the facts on our side, we'd win more times than we'd lose. And we are winning on really big cases in front of the, the U.S. supreme Court. And his polls are. He's in the 30s with his approval ratings. It's historic lows. They're in the tank. Midterms are upon us. At least the primary of the midterms with the general in November. That should be a real wave of voters rejecting Trump and Trumpism. So that sort of return to the way it was or the way some of the things should be again is already happening. You're right. There are some times where we've done things to respond in this moment that aren't the ideal things. I think redistricting is probably the best example, especially given California, we had a position on this. We like independent citizen redistricting committees that are supposed to be apolitical and we like keeping communities of interest together and not letting politics get into the determinations of the districts. Although under the law of the United States it's fully legal for politics partisan gerrymandering to occur. And we were leading by example with our independent citizen Redistricting Commission, but others didn't have that. And so we were at a disadvantage nationally. We when it comes to the number of seats that were drawn for districts where they're likely to go Democrat and other states were very much being partisan and the balance of the House of Representatives really could swing because of that. When Trump sought the five additional seats in Texas by telling Governor Abbott that he was entitled to them, and Governor Abbott, you know, saluted and gave a yes sir and delivered what Trump asked for. We thought we had to fight fire with fire in California. You know, the governor did and he thought we should put it before the people. Do it in a different way. Not a smoke filled room where you emerge with some new districts, but ask the people of this state, what do you want to do? Here's the situation, here's what Texas did, here's what we can do. We don't have to do it. It's up to you. We have an independent citizens redistricting commission. If you want to keep it, keep it. You want to have these five new seats vote for them and they overwhelmingly voted for them. And Also in Prop 50 was a position of the state of California that said, we think that the whole federal government, every state in the United States, should have an independent citizen redistricting commission and that everyone should have the same rule. But it's hard when we have a rule and others don't and then they take advantage of their process and then where people literally suffer, then you get a house that swings Republican, you get things like HR1, the so called, one big beautiful bill act where health care is stripped away from people and Planned Parenthood is defunded and the rich folks are given tax breaks paid for by poor folks who lose healthcare. And so I think that one day, I think in hope there will be a Congress with the wisdom collectively to require that every state have an independent citizens Redistricting commission. Another place where we're going to, I think move quickly back to the way things were and the way should be is right now we're Seeing in the US DOJ a weaponization of the office. It's more an office that is interested in political persecution instead of criminal prosecution. And they're going after political enemies like James Comey and Tish James and others. And that is completely inappropriate. That is not what criminal law and criminal process is for. It's an abuse of that process. It damages the reputation of the US DOJ as well as the federal government more broadly. And I think under a more thoughtful, fair, law abiding leader, that will go back to becoming a office that is not interested in politics. It's just interested in the law and the facts and being firm but fair and applying the law objectively and fairly and helping deliver blind justice. That's another place where I think we'll be swinging back. But sometimes you got to fight the fire with fire. And we're doing that now. Even when it's not the ideal long term landing place, it is, in my humble opinion, often inappropriate short term response to a real threat. That is a tremendous risk today.
- [25:54]
A
Well, I hope so as well. You obviously have a lot of cases you're working on. Certain things you can talk about, certain things you can't. The Warner Brothers Paramount acquisition is obviously top of mind for most people in Los Angeles and people who care about the future of content, film, soft power in America. What are some things you can kind of can talk about in relationship to that case and what you guys are looking at, what you're seeing?
- [26:23]
B
Well, I can talk about the fact that we are investigating. We have said, and I'll say it again here, the Paramount Warner Brothers merger is not a done deal. It has not cleared regulatory scrutiny. Regulators, including California, who has a regulatory role to enforce antitrust law, still have an opportunity to investigate, review and potentially act. We could, if we decide to sue in court to block the merger. And you know, a recent example of us doing that in another case is us suing to block the nexstar Tegna merger. And we blocked it. We have a preliminary injunction right now where a court is saying that we're likely to succeed on the merits of our case. And if the court doesn't issue an order to block the merger, then the states risk suffering irreparable harm. That merger is blocked for now during the pendency of the litigation. And we think that we're going to get a permanent win in that case too. Just the straight up metrics, the numbers, the math show that the market share of the merged entity of Nexstar and Tegna is presumptively unlawful. It's over the 30% threshold. And so we're looking at Paramount, Warner Brothers. We're looking at the impact of what the merger would have on the different markets that Paramount and Warner Brothers are involved in. They're involved in theatrical release, they're involved in distribution of cable channels. They're involved in streaming, they're involved in acquiring from writers. They're creative pieces. So we're just looking at all the markets and assessing what the impact will be and looking at things that you would expect us to look at. What's the market share? What's the impact going to be on price for consumers? What's the impact going to be on job loss and wages for workers? What's the impact on choice, on quality, on competition? Corporate consolidation generally increases prices and decreases competition and choice and quality. There's already been corporate consolidation in this space, Disney, Fox. And so when there's already consolidation and there is more to come, that raises even more, potentially more to come, that raises even more red flags. So we're looking closely and we're also monitoring what's happening with the steps of the merger. There's a shareholder vote today. There's efforts to clear regulatory scrutiny in Europe. And we will make sure we conclude our investigation and make a decision about whether we're going to act or not in a way that's timely and that preserves our rights to.
- [29:15]
A
To.
- [29:16]
B
To. To act, if that's what we decide to do.
- [29:19]
A
Does the Warner Brothers shareholders approving the sale today have a major factor in the timing of what you need to do?
- [29:29]
B
No. No, it doesn't. We don't need to act before today's vote. It is another step closer in consummating the merger. But we sued the day before the merger and next to Artegna, and we successfully blocked it. That was not too late. And suing after the shareholder vote is also not too late. And we still preserve all of our rights to act. And if we decide to block the merger, to try to block the merger, then we preserve that right as well.
- [30:10]
A
I feel, you know, it feels like the climate is this climate of sort of wild, wild west of these mergers just happening and them all getting through. But the flip side is that when you talk about it, you know, it actually does seem like you've. You've had some success. There was obviously a success in the Live Nation case. Are you surprised that some of these things are not going through with. With the climate that you see in the times ultimate? Is the system working? Is the court system working the way it should work.
- [30:45]
B
The court system is working and the states are playing our role. And we're required in this moment to have an enhanced role, an increased role, to do more, to step up and step in. And why? Because the federal government is not playing its role. So that's the biggest noticeable omission from this equation here, is that the federal government, through the US DOJ and the Federal Trade Commission, the ftc, they have the biggest teams, antitrust teams in the nation. They have hundreds of attorneys, they have a ton of resources. They have a lot of experience. They have a history and tradition of firmly but fairly applying the antitrust laws to corporate mergers and corporate conduct because it protects Americans, it protects consumers. And they are now not doing that. They are ushering through seemingly, the federal government is more the White House and Trump deals that they want based on seemingly self enrichment, helping their friends, a deal that they just like because they like it without any appropriate antitrust scrutiny. So having the FTC and the US DOJ retreat from their traditional role, abdicate their responsibility, leaves much more work to do for the states. And I think the sort of message is being received by some in the corporate world that maybe this is the time to try to consummate a merger or engage in some sort of conduct that normally the DOJ or the FTC would block and stop because they're not necessarily interested and focused on doing that right now. And Ticketmaster Live Nation was an example. We sued California and multiple states, bipartisan states, by the way. Both Republican and Democratic states sued alongside the federal government. The U.S. dOJ under Biden, you know, brought the lawsuit and then the trial was scheduled to occur under Trump. And it is very common for the federal government and the states to work together on an antitrust case that affects, you know, the states involved and the shared constituents in those states. But right before trial, the federal government went dark. The US DOJ went dark, meaning they stopped talking to us, the states. And we didn't know what they were doing. We were very suspicious. We are not naive. And we feared the worst. And it was the worst. They were cutting their own weak, slap on the wrist, sweetheart deal with Ticketmaster Live Nation. And they ended up with a settlement that was very inadequate and left the states to go to trial on our own and to fight on. And we did. But we had to muster and marshal the resources to do that. We had to prepare very quickly to fill the gaps that the US DOJ left behind with their last minute courthouse steps, eve of trial, weak settlement. And we did. We went to trial. And we won. And we got Our jury verdict. 11 page jury verdict form that on every question found for the states and against Ticketmaster, Live Nation. So that's an example of the federal government not doing its job, the state stepping in, doing ours, showing that we have the talent, the resources, the commitment to protect people when the antitrust laws are violated. And antitrust basically just means affordability. We're increasing affordability for the people of this country, making sure that they're treated well, treated fairly, treated lawfully. And that was a big win for us. And then we had Nextar Tegna, we got the preliminary injunction on those conglomerates of local TV stations and blocked that merger. And we're looking at Paramount, Warner Brothers. We have an objection to a settlement that we believe was corrupt with. And we've made our allegations and concerns clear through something called the Tunney Act. It was a merger of hpe, Hewlett Packard and Juniper on and the federal government, the White House actually seemingly greenlit that merger for inappropriate reasons. So it's not supposed to be that the federal government doesn't do its job, but if they don't, the states should be able to and can, and here are stepping into that breach, stepping into that gap and filling the role that the federal government is no longer delivering on and doing the antitrust enforcement that needs to happen.
- [35:34]
A
It seems like you, the attorneys general or nationwide kind of need to come together on some of these big topics. I mean, the scope and scale some of these big companies. It's just you don't have enough money to go to some of these cases. Obviously there's a strength in numbers. There are a lot of really exciting and dynamic AGs out there right now, at least on the Democratic side, between Dana Nestle and yourself and Jeff Jackson and Tish James and you know, there's a long list. Do you guys have some signal chat where you guys are all talking about your favorite TV shows and also what's the next case you're working together on? Is that that legal? I don't, I, you know, I don't even know we're allowed to communicate.
- [36:18]
B
And without getting into to the specifics, we do communicate regularly, consistently. I'm, you know, I'm talking to Tish regularly, where I'm talking to, you know, Jeff and Dana and you know, the whole team. Phil Weiser in Colorado is a big antitrust focused attorney general. And you know, we have Kwame, Raul and Illinois. So we are in consist, you know, constant contact because we have to be because the threats Emerge, new threats emerge every day, ongoing threats progress and cases become ripe, meaning we can now sue and go into court to block unlawful actions. And, you know, we hear percolations and whispers of something that's, you know, going to emerge. And then it does emerge, and we have to respond quickly to protect our people, protect their rights, protect their funding. And so we are in constant contact. And it is a incredible group. 24 Democratic AGs consistently working together, sharing ideas, sharing expertise, sharing institutional knowledge, talent, energy, resources that together are able to create a whole that's much more than the sum of the parts that can really deliver on big issues and a whole range of issues, from billions of dollars in funding to constitutional rights to antitrust. We have some big lawsuits against social media platforms as well for mental health, harms to kids. So a whole range. But yes, antitrust cases in particular are very expensive. Experts are expensive. They're resource rich, meaning you need to put a lot of attorneys on these cases. There's highly paid private attorneys on the other side that are billing all sorts of thousands of hours. So when we can share resources and talent and, you know, both money and, and, you know, attorneys and, and, and other staff, like paralegals that are part of litigation teams, we're able to deliver for the American people.
- [38:19]
A
Jeff Jackson is an interesting, an interesting guy. He's went to my alma mater, Emory. I got to meet him when I was actually shooting a movie in Charlotte. And are you, are you surprised to see an attorneys General with over 2 million Instagram TikTok followers? And are we going to see you playing a big role on TikTok soon? And the thing that's great about Jeff, which really just impresses me, is he has amassed this following, being himself, being. I mean, he couldn't be more boring on TikTok, but somehow his straight to no, yeah, I'll tell them myself. I mean, but it's working and, you know, it proves something. And not to shift into sort of higher office or politics today, but, you know, people want authentic people. That's what we're looking for in our elected officials. Looking for trusted people who speak from the heart, who care, who are honest. And Jeff's really captured that. Do you see, you know, in, in your role and the role of elected officials, there's a, there's an aspect of, you know, sure, you got to do the job and you got to be great at the job, but there's an aspect of really communicating to your constituents in a way that they can digest it, they can understand it, and they can rally behind it 100%.
- [39:49]
B
All true. And first, I'll say there's a lot of envy about Jeff's following among the AGs. Admiration, respect and envy. I mean, it's incredible. And we're all attorneys, by definition, to be the attorneys general of our states and attorneys talk in a certain way. When we're formally trained, that way of talking isn't necessarily the best way to talk to our constituents. It can be inaccessible or hard to penetrate and hard to understand some of the legalese and the legal talk, the procedural talk, the jargon and the lawyer talk isn't always the best. So trying to make it real, tell people why it's important. Antitrust is like that. Like what's antitrust? Well, it's about affordability. If you care about your pocketbook, affording your lives, then you should care about antitrust. And so we try to break it down into clear ways, but we do so much. And it's kind of the old adage, if a tree falls in the woods, who's going to know what you're doing? So we got to communicate to folks. So they know a lot of people are anxious, they're worried, they're wondering who's doing what, who's fighting for them. Is anyone. Is anyone delivering? And I think there is actually some hope and optimism in our message that, yeah, we are. You may not always see it, but we want to tell you about it. We're fighting it back against unlawful corporate mergers. We're fighting back against the president who breaks the law. We're fighting back against attempts to have your funding withheld and your rights violated. Yeah, we're fighting and we're winning. And, you know, I think when people hear that we're getting court orders and that Trump is following those court orders and that we're getting court orders even from the U.S. supreme Court, that gives people hope. And we're not trying to, you know, manufacture hope. We're just telling the truth. That is a. And the truth is hopeful in this regard. So we do spend a lot of time communicating what we do. And Jeff in particular is very successful at doing that. And I agree that authenticity is invaluable and people want it and they crave it, and they can sense inauthenticity right away. And they can sense people who are, you know, just like you say, speaking from the heart, speaking their truth, you know, showing that they care, trying to help, trying to be part of the solutions, being sincere, really putting in a good faith effort. I think, you know, the American people are very smart and they see that right away.
- [42:13]
A
I think, you know, listen, I. No one knows the answer of what's going to work and connect and cut through with people. I can't imagine going back to watching Jeff's first video that he did where he was sort of just walking people through this straight to camera address would have caught on. But I do think there's something to be said just for letting the people know what you're doing and what you're up to. And I think that's one of the things that we get frustrated about with our elected officials is, you know, hearing what you're doing on a daily basis for one minute every morning. Not to give you another thing to do on your day, but I think, I think that really people want to know. People don't understand the complexities of what you and your office has to do and how critical it is to their daily lives. They think it's, oh, it's far away or it doesn't relate to, to me, but it relates to everybody. And when you have elections coming up and people get to the place where they think these elections don't matter, they don't, you know, who you know, really, at the end of the day, they really do. And I think it's important that all of our elected officials take a page from Jeff's book and other books that help convey what our elected officials are doing for them.
- [43:17]
B
I totally agree. And you know, our constituents, for me, the people of California, the voters of California, those are my bosses. And if you have a boss, you should report to your boss, tell them what you're doing, tell them what you've been working on, tell them what sort of you've accomplished, what the results are. And we, a number of years ago when I became ag, started a weekly newsletter where we send, it's electronic, we send it out, millions of people subscribe and receive it. We usually send it on a Sunday. And it's interesting you might think otherwise, but we have huge open rates on Sundays. And one of the things I hear the most is from people, constituents when I move around the state is they say, I get your newsletter and I appreciate you telling me what you're doing. So it's kind of a weekly wrap up all the cases that we worked on, the major actions and initiatives that we engaged in that week. And I believe I owe it to the people of our state to tell them what I'm up to. And more and more you write that the mode of communicating changes. Not everyone looks at weekly newsletters and email. And more and more people want the video.
- [44:25]
A
Right?
- [44:25]
B
They want the short 30, 30 second, 1 minute, 90 second video. So we're shifting more in that way, in that direction as well.
- [44:32]
A
That's great. This is an election year for yourself as well as many other people. State of California, city of LA is in a very complicated elections. I know you have not endorsed anybody for governor yet. I don't know if, if you plan on it. It's obviously a critical role internationally, the world. I mean, who's. The California governor is one of the most important elected officials in the world. So I'm curious what your thoughts are on the current race and how you're looking at it.
- [45:07]
B
A race like no other, very different than the last few races where a front runner emerged and kind of owned the, the lane and the space and was able to be successful. Jerry Brown a couple cycles ago, Gavin Newsom most recently. This one's just wide open and it's wide open, you know, with, you know, ballots about to hit and you know, 30 days plus before election day. So, you know, and it's had some major shifts and changes along the way, obviously with Congressmember Swalwell being a front runner, not the front runner, but you know, a front runner and in some poles, the front runner. And then, you know, him having an out, you know, just completely unacceptable and disgusting scandal and rightfully, you know, withdrawing from the race with resigning from Congress and needing to face full accountability for all of his conduct and actions. And, you know, my thoughts are with, and my support is with the victims and survivors who courageously spoke up and spoke out, who deserve healing and deserve justice here. And then Becerra, who is trailing in many polls now having a surge. Mr. Steyer continues to be a front runner. Some people are dropping out like Betty Yee. Ian Calderon dropped out before concerns and hand wringing around whether there'll be two Republicans. Some polls show that I don't think that's going to happen. I do think there'll be a Republican and a Democrat, Most likely, likely Mr. Hilton on the Republican side and on the Democratic side either to me today. And again, just given the dynamics of this race, it could change quickly. But probably Steyer or Becerra is what I'd say today. That's just me looking at the polls. It's not a personal preference. Just looking at the metrics and the data and trying to be as objective as possible. So they're different. It's a benevolent billionaire progressive who hasn't had elected office before but has been Adjacent to it quite a bit. You know, he's, he's been involved in California politics, presidential politics. He ran for president a couple cycles ago and also helped with some major propositions. And then Becerra, you know, assembly member, Congress member, attorney general, cabinet secretary, a lot of experience there. So they're just different. And in, you know, in the end, the people will decide what they want. I think there's a lot of appeal of Mr. Steyer's agenda to certain voters in California. There's also an appeal of Mr. Becerra, you know, sort of his steadiness, his experience to people as well and voters. There's still a lot of undecided, so some aren't really focused yet. And a lot of the communication that occurs in governor's races is really just starting to kick off now. The voting window is from when you get your ballot, the end of voting, that sort of 30 day window, and then we'll see. You know, if you don't think you're already saturated on TV and digital and social media with ads, you're going to see more because that's when the communication really kicks in. But, you know, my goal will be as the Attorney General. I'm seeking another term this year. I'm hopeful and optimistic that I'll be able to earn that, you know, if it's up to the constituents, but I'm hopeful that they're enough of them, are supportive of and proud of, supportive of my record and want me to keep on doing some of the work that I'm doing and more. And my goal will be to be the best partner with the new governor that I can be. That success of the governor means the success of California, and I want to contribute to that in any and every way that I can.
- [48:52]
A
So as of now, you don't have any plans to endorse somebody?
- [48:55]
B
As of now, no. Okay. I might, you know, because things change every day, but I have no current plans.
- [49:02]
A
Yeah, I mean, obviously who governor is is probably one of the most important aspects of your job. I would assume it is.
- [49:09]
B
I've had a great partnership with Governor Newsom. I hope to have that with the next governor as well.
- [49:13]
A
Well, you have my vote if that helps in this, in your, in the energy.
- [49:17]
B
Thank you.
- [49:17]
A
I'm honored. There you go. It's one every vote.
- [49:20]
B
I won't get shut out, that's for sure. I got my mom, I think. I hope I. All right.
- [49:27]
A
We started with some tough questions. We're going to end with some, some, some tough questions. A couple of personal questions for those who don't know know you just some rapid fire things, short answers as possible. All right, what's a skill we'd be most surprised that you have?
- [49:41]
B
I can juggle a soccer ball probably over 300 times.
- [49:46]
A
Wow. Okay, that's very impressive. Where do you get your daily news?
- [49:54]
B
Gosh, I, I love npr and I listen to the NPR podcast, the audio, you know, I turn it on in the morning when I'm, when I'm getting ready, when I'm exercising, I like to listen to NPR politics, that, that part in particular. And then I, I also like to go to New York Times as well and, and, and listen, they have some really good podcasts and obviously really good reporting. But I, but I have a comms team and they're always sending me articles as well. And then, you know, I'm on, you know, X and Facebook and Instagram and you see news there. It's not the same type of news, but there's, there's always, you know, current events that are, that are developing and you know, you gotta have a grain of salt, especially on X, have a, you know, maintain your critical thinking, not just accept everything hook, line and sinker. But I try to get it from multiple places and, you know, keep an eye on Fox as well and, you know, just kind of see what everyone's saying.
- [50:50]
A
I know you have no free time, but if you did have a true day off where you could shut off your phone and just sort of take a day for yourself, what would that, what would that look like?
- [51:05]
B
Well, my wife and I do that sometimes. We call it our hooky day. We try to do it once a year. It doesn't always happen. We got our aligned schedules, but we try to just be together. We met when we were 17. We've been together ever since. We, we went to college together, law school together. We built our careers together. And you know, in our busy lives, you got to carve out, you know, space for, for each other. And we've always loved going to the movies and you know, sometimes we would, we would go to the movies and see multiple movies at once and you know, just enjoy it and relax and have some popcorn and you know, have some Whoppers and you know, Red Vines or whatever it is and just enjoy it. So that, that's a type of relaxation for me. I love watching soccer. I played it in college and a little bit afterwards. My daughter's a professional soccer player. I love to watch the English Premier League. I'm a Manchester United fan. I just Lost half of your following when I said that, if not more. But I do love them. The Sir Alex Ferguson, Manchester United. I'm going to be watching the World cup right here in the United States, kicking off in a, you know, a few weeks, but watching soccer, being with my wife, watching movies. And honestly, exercise is relaxing to me in a sort of mental health way. It kind of, you know, takes down the temperature, gets me relaxed, you know, sun, fresh air, getting the blood flowing. That's a way that I like to spend my downtime as well.
- [52:39]
A
I love that. Okay, just a couple left. Since you are a movie watcher, what's the last movie you watched that you enjoyed?
- [52:45]
B
Oof. One battle after another. I just saw with a great Leonardo DiCaprio performance of that one, but a great plot. Sean Penn, obviously awesome as well. But I recently saw that one and really enjoyed it. I thought it was very well done.
- [52:58]
A
Okay, if you could put in a song or an album when you finish work tonight, what might it be?
- [53:08]
B
I have a ridiculously sort of eclectic type of, you know, my playlist. Like, when people listen to it, they're like, you've just gone from the 70s to the 90s, from rap to country. But one of the songs that I like is Lupe Fiasco. The show goes on. It just like, it's motivating. It's, you know, kind of meaningful today. Like, keep fighting, keep moving. Put one foot after the other and, you know, just keep things rolling. That, that gives me energy and inspiration.
- [53:39]
A
If I could have guessed a thousand artists, I'm pretty sure Lupe Fiasco, who I know as an artist, would not have been on that list. Okay. All right. Okay. Real rapid fire. Coffee or tea?
- [53:49]
B
Coffee for sure. Double espresso, if possible.
- [53:52]
A
Early bird or night owl?
- [53:54]
B
More early, but I go both ends.
- [53:57]
A
Pizza or tacos?
- [53:59]
B
Pizza, baby.
- [54:03]
A
Beach or hiking?
- [54:05]
B
Oh, I like both, but beach means relaxation and joy for me. Happy place.
- [54:10]
A
All right, great. I love these so much. Okay, last question. What makes you most proud to be a Californian and what. Just what sort of. What means the most to you about this state?
- [54:23]
B
I'm just proud of our fighting spirit right now, you know, on full display from, you know, everyday folks who, you know, don't have fancy titles but have the most important title that that there is, you know, citizen. And they're exerting that by coming out with millions of people on no, Kings Day to, you know, all the way to our governor, Governor Newsom, who's kind of fighter in chief right now, really channeling a lot of the energy of the people, you know, fighting not just against something, although, you know, there are attacks that we have to fight back against, mostly coming unfortunately and tragically from the Trump administration. But fighting for something for, you know, a more just world, a better tomorrow, a world that's good and fair and safe, that's inclusive, that gives opportunity for all, that gives our kids, and there are grandkids, you know, hope and a planet for tomorrow and an opportunity to be successful, to buy a home, to have an affordable life, to have a good life. And we're fighting for that. And every moment requires people to meet that moment. No one is given their democracy. Democracy isn't guaranteed rights and freedoms aren't guaranteed yet to fight for them. And California has always fought, and I will always bet on the people of this state, the spirit of this state. I'm a proud Californian through and through. It gave me a home when I was born in another country and democracy was being taken away by a dictator who declared martial law. And I went to great California public schools. I built my career here, raised my family here, three amazing kids who I couldn't be more proud of. And together we are showing why there's a California dream, why there's people refer to the California spirit. We're meeting this moment, and I'm proud to be side by side with so many Californians who are demanding better, demanding more, and refusing to accept what's so unacceptable. And it makes me proud to be a Californian and makes me want to fight harder alongside them and do everything I can with all the authority that I have.
- [56:21]
A
Well, you make me proud to be a Californian, and your answer is perfect. It's a great state, and we're lucky to have you as the people's attorney. Keep fighting hard for us. Keep spending that wonderful time with your wife and your. Sounds like your amazing family. And thank you so much for all you do for us.
- [56:42]
B
Thank you, Jamie. Very kind of you to say. Honored to be with you today.
- [56:44]
A
Thanks a lot. Okay, thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Lunch with Jamie. As always, be sure to subscribe to my newsletter@jamieslist.com for my thoughts on all things food, pop culture, politics, and more. And remember to join these online conversations and ask my guests questions in real time. Sign up to get a paid subscriber. You can listen on Apple podcasts, Spotify or Audible, and be sure to leave a review. Thanks and see you next time.