← Lunch with Jamie
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- [00:04]
A
This week, I sat down with Congressman Sarah McBride for a frank and honest conversation about what's really happening in Washington. As you may or may not know, Sarah McBride is the first transgender member of Congress and represents her state of Delaware very proudly. She's someone who truly tells it like it is, who's honest and who really, to me, one of the most important things that she focused on is the concept of imperfect allies. We live in a world now where someone says the wrong thing at the wrong time, they're immediately canceled, they're put in the corner, they're shunned. She explains firsthand how that strategy doesn't work. We also got to know each other a little bit more. She explained her love of Taylor Swift, which obviously, as a die hard Swifty, I can get behind. She told me about her favorite fried chicken place in Delaware called Waltz, which definitely got me excited for my trip to Delaware, where she promised to take me there. She's also somebody who is out there every day fighting for health care and for the extension of the ACA tax credits. She gave us some stark numbers on the reality that these credits don't get extended next year, which is just heartbreaking. No matter who you are, no matter if you're a Democrat or Republican, Sarah McBride is the type of person you want fighting in D.C. you want her fighting for you. You want her being open and honest and listening to other sides and other points of view, which she truly does. I think you're going to really appreciate this conversation, and I hope you're as excited about Sarah as I am. Now, here's my interview with Sarah McBride. Hey, everybody. Welcome to another lunch with Jamie. This is a first for me because I'm recording this from the Delta Lounge at JFK because of some flight challenges. So hopefully that will not get in our way. But when you see some people walking in the background, don't be confused.
- [01:52]
B
So.
- [01:53]
A
But welcome. I'm really excited to be joined by Sarah McBride today. I've been trying to find a time to talk to Sarah for a long time, so I'm really happy that she was able to make some time for us. This is going to be part of our Meet the Candidate series. So, you know, it's going to be. We're going to go from some personal questions to some policy questions. Sarah is, without question, one of the most exciting freshman Congress members there is. She has been doing some amazing work. She's representing Delaware. She started in the state Senate and this is end of her first year. And Sarah, I want to thank you and welcome to lunch with Jamie.
- [02:35]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [02:37]
A
Of course. So, as I said, I'm going to throw you some curveballs and some of the toughest questions to start with. So, first, where were you born and raised?
- [02:47]
B
I was born and raised in the greatest state in the history of the Union in Delaware, in Wilmington, Delaware. I actually got to represent in the state senate, the district that I was born and raised in, and I live not too far from where I grew up now.
- [03:01]
A
Love that. Okay, and where was your first job?
- [03:05]
B
Oh, my first job was babysitting. I was actually having this conversation at a fundraiser this. This Sunday in Wilmington because the people who live in the home where I babysat were there, and the previous owners I used to babysit for. So I started at 13. Wow.
- [03:23]
A
Okay, great. All right, next question. If you weren't in politics, what do you think you'd be doing?
- [03:30]
B
Oof. Two answers. I would love to be Rick Steves, a travel writer. That would be a dream job of mine. I am a Rick Nick. I love Rick Steves. Second, if I wasn't doing that, I would love to be a movie director. I went to an art school for high school, and I was a cinema studies major. So if I wasn't doing this, I'd either want to be a travel writer or a movie director.
- [03:55]
A
I've never heard of a Rick Nick, but now I'm excited to do some digging and learn some more. What skill would be most surprised that you have?
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B
Oh, God, what skill. I would. I don't know what would be surprising. I'm a reasonably good cook, and I love, love, love cooking. It's like my happy place. It's meditative for me, and any chance I get, I love to cook.
- [04:24]
A
Great. Great. Love that. Where do you get your daily news?
- [04:29]
B
I get my daily. I start my morning typically reading tip sheets from Politico, Notice and Punchbowl. I peruse the New York Times and Delaware Online, which is our in state paper. And of course, I doom scroll way too much on various social media platforms where I do get some news from from those platforms.
- [04:53]
A
All right, then. And great. Tee up to what is your most used app?
- [04:59]
B
I fluctuate, so there'll be periods. I shouldn't admit this, but there'll be periods of time where I'm, like, deep on TikTok and. And then there'll be, like, weeks that go by where I forget to use the app entirely. But I'm definitely, I think, right now in my. In my TikTok phase. I can do the Taylor Swift Fate of Ophelia dance, because that's been fed to me way too many times. Victoria, who's in this room with me, is now covering her face in embarrassment and shame.
- [05:30]
A
I would say I'm jealous that you can do the dance because I love the song so much and I'm such a swifty that if it wouldn't embarrass me too much, I would probably try and learn it.
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B
I mean, and let me just say, do the dance is generous. Like I know the dance. Not so sure I can do it very well because I'm not. That's. Dancing is not one of my skills that I could say I have.
- [05:52]
A
What would you say is your campaign theme song?
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B
Last cycle it was From now on, which we would play in the car. It wasn't actually like what I walked onto when I won, but from now on, from the Greatest Showman was our pump up song during the campaign. Now it's speaking of Taylor Swift. It's who's Afraid of Little Me from Tortured Poets Department.
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A
I love that you can't go wrong with any Taylor Swift song in my book.
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B
And it's so. I mean, that song describes my life in Congress so well.
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A
Yeah, totally makes sense. What was your most used emoji?
- [06:32]
B
Probably heart. Red heart.
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A
I like that. Are you someone who changes up the heart color based on, like, what you're doing or you stick with the red heart?
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B
No, because I can't keep track of what the different colors are supposed to mean. So I just do the red heart all the time.
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A
I'm kind of with you on that. What would be your last meal? You could come from different places.
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B
Probably fried chicken from Walt's in Delaware. And then I don't know if they still exist because all of the ones closed near me. But I would get Walt's fried Chicken and then go to Boston Market and I would get a bunch of Boston Market sides.
- [07:17]
A
I'm very excited to come visit you and get some Walt. That sounds delicious. Who would be three dinner party guests for you? Dream dinner party guests, dead or alive?
- [07:29]
B
Abraham Lincoln, John lewis, and. Probably Alice Paul. Love that.
- [07:51]
A
Okay, I know you don't get a day off, but if you had a day off, what would your ideal day off be?
- [07:59]
B
Oh, I can easily answer this. Doing nothing. I am an introvert. There are actually a lot of introverts in politics. But I am an introvert. And if I get a day off, the perfect day is I wake up, have a cup of coffee, eat a big breakfast, take a two hour nap, wake up Have a cup of coffee, watch some TV or a movie, have dinner, pass out. That's my dream day.
- [08:24]
A
It sounds perfect. Great use of a day off. Are there any movies you've been watching recently? What's the latest movie you watched that you loved?
- [08:35]
B
I loved Sinners. God. There were a couple of ones that I just watched. Really liked Weapons. Two movies this year that came out, Nosferatu. I also enjoyed the new one that came out, I guess, in the last year. I'm also a big, like, I love streaming series, and my favorites are Ted Lasso, Derry Girls, and 30 Rock.
- [09:05]
A
All great answers. There is a correct answer, which is my latest movie, Roofman, but I'm not gonna hold it against you, but next time someone asks you that question, that's make sure you give the right answer. Okay, good.
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B
I'll make sure I'm prepared for that next time. All right.
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A
What's the best advice you've ever gotten, and who is it from?
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B
The best advice I ever got was when I was in my senior year in college, interning, actually, in the Obama White House by a guy named Dave Noble, who was a political appointee there, openly gay, had been an advocate, and then went into the Obama administration and was like chief of staff for NASA and then was at the national this and national that. And by the time I met him was at the White House. And I was very concerned, as I was. I was a senior, I was coming out, and I started getting involved in LGBTQ advocacy because I had just come out as. As student body president at American University, as trans. And I was really passionate about doing that work, doing that advocacy work, but I was worried that it was going to pigeonhole me for the rest of my life into just that advocacy. And he. He gave me advice, and he said, you can always reinvent yourself, and you should do what makes you happy and what you're passionate about in the moment. And I followed that advice, and it was absolutely true.
- [10:34]
A
I love that. I think that's great. I always talk about how, you know, when I'm. When I'm talking to college kids or younger kids, I'm always. When they. I always say, I'm still trying to figure out what I'm going to do with my life. So don't. Don't beat yourself up over it. What moments along your path to Congress have influenced you, your kind of approach to public service? Is there sort of one moment in particular that really sort of led you to where you are today?
- [11:05]
B
Are we still in rapid fire right now? Because I feel like That's a bigger, bigger question.
- [11:11]
A
All right, let's. We're, we're moving on out of rapid fire into. Yeah, yeah, there you go. You're so good at following the following. The rules here. I love this. What a great.
- [11:21]
B
My team is going to ask you for advice for how to keep me concise, because you just did that with, with those rapid fire questions. You know, for me, my journey to public office, I think in a lot of ways has been a 35 year journey back to hope for me, because my first interest in politics and government and advocacy, it really stemmed from when I was a young person. And I started to realize that there was something about me that society didn't approve of, that society wasn't ready for. And I was scared. I felt alone. And I, I really wondered whether the heart of this country was big enough to love someone like me. And in that really crisis of hope that I was feeling as a young person, I went searching for solutions. I went searching for examples of our world becoming kinder and more just and more inclusive. And at that point, I wanted to be an architect. So I used to read about different buildings and I stumbled across books about the White House and the Capitol and, and I started to read those books and I marveled not just at the architecture and the beauty of the buildings, but the history that I realized occurred within their walls. Because I realized that the through line of every chapter was the story of advocates, activists, and a handful of courageous elected officials working together to right the wrongs of our past, to address injustice, to bring people from the shadows and the margins of society into our circle of community and opportunity. And I found hope in that story, and I found hope in the possibilities in our politics. And so I got involved at a really young age. But, you know, I never thought that someone like me could run for office as our authentic selves. I never thought it would be possible for a trans person to run for and win office, let alone federal office. So I honestly never really thought that, that, that I could come out and run. But two things happened in the mid 2010s that really spurred me to, to want to run. The first was my experience as a caregiver to the man who would become my husband, Andy, during his battle with cancer. He was in his 20s. He was diagnosed with cancer as a. When he was an attorney in his early 20s, mid-20s, working to implement the Affordable Care Act. And when you're in your 20s, you never expect to hear the word cancer. You. You feel like you're invincible and obviously when you. When you get diagnosed with that at any age, let alone in your 20s, it feels like the world is just coming crashing in on you. And despite that, though, he knew and I knew how lucky he was. And we were. We knew how lucky he was to have health insurance that would allow him to get care that would hopefully save his life. And we both knew how lucky we were to have flexibility with our jobs that would allow him to get care and me to be there by his side to care for him. And when he found out that his cancer was terminal, to marry him and to walk him to his passing. And I decided to move from LGBTQ advocacy into elected office in large part because of that experience and my belief that in the wealthiest, most developed nation on earth at that time and that ability to get care that we were lucky enough to have despite Andy losing his life, that in this nation, it should not be a matter of luck. It should be the law of the land. And then, More positively, in 2017, I saw someone who's become a friend of mine, Danica Rome, get elected in Virginia. And I saw that people like me can run and win and be damn good legislators. And so in 2020, when my state Senate seat that I had been born and raised in opened up, I ran. I was lucky enough to win and serve for four years in the state Senate and now find myself here in Washington, D.C. having the privilege of representing the entirety of what I said at the start is objectively the greatest state in the Union, in the House.
- [16:02]
A
I really appreciate you sharing that with us. And, you know, your journey to where you are today is extraordinary. And I know, you know, appreciate how hard you're working and what you've done. I heard you say on a podcast, in our politics, we don't grapple with the fact that people don't know what they don't know. Can you expand on what you mean about that?
- [16:31]
B
Well, I think one of the challenges that we have had in this country for a long time is that people's patience and grace has been abused. There is absolutely no question about that. And the course correction in our politics, in our civic life, cannot be to eliminate all grace from our politics. I am a big believer in people's inherent goodness. Our perpetual struggle in life is a struggle internally between our base instincts and our better angels. But I do believe that when you give people a chance, most people, if in the right circumstances, with the right information, will want to do the. The right thing, the kind thing, the fair thing, the just thing. Not everyone, not all the time. But in most cases, in most circumstances, if given the right information, if given the right opportunity and the right incentives, they will do the right thing for sure. And I think that a lot of, a lot of the, a lot of the challenges that we face right now, a lot of the unfinished work in our nation's pursuit of social justice, a lot of the backsliding that we're experiencing right now, a lot of that can be rooted, traced to, I think, a sense of uncertainty, a sense of fear. And I do think that when people are scared and when they're fearful, that uncertainty, that chaos is exploited by politicians, by strong men, by autocrats, by nefarious forces that want to place blame on the other and the unknown. I believe it's much harder to hate someone whose story you know, I think that it's much harder to hate up close. And I think that a lot of times when people are scared and feel uncertain and unmoored and they don't have a clear picture about who a community is or what a community, what a community is, that lack of knowledge, that knowledge gap is able to be exploited. And I think that that's been particularly true for people like me in our politics right now. And I think that a lot of people are just trying to get through the day. A lot of people are feeling unmoored and uncertain and they don't know what they don't know. And when that knowledge gap is exploited by strong men, I don't think it's a productive path forward to lay blame on the people who don't know what they don't know, who haven't had that opportunity to learn and grow and be educated. And instead it's an opportunity for us to come in with grace so that people can indeed grow.
- [19:40]
A
That's really well said and I think so true. I'm curious, do you, are you surprised at how far the country has come
- [19:54]
B
to
- [19:57]
A
protecting trans rights or trans rights, or are you surprised at how slow the journey has been?
- [20:07]
B
You know, I think in my answer would change over time. I think three years ago I would have said I'm amazed at the speed with which we've had progress. And right now I would say I'm very cognizant of the speed in which we've regressed legally, politically and in many ways from a public opinion standpoint. And I think it is an important reminder that progress is neither linear nor permanent. And I think the balance and the struggle in change making, and I don't just mean this from a legislative or policy perspective, but Also from a cultural perspective, is to demand change as quickly as possible, but to recognize that if change isn't built on a solid enough foundation, that it's much easier for that. That progress, legal, political, to be reversed. And I, I think that in the 2010s, there was a false sense of security that many felt not just in the LGBTQ community. I think in sort of the progressive movement writ large, there was a false sense of security on, on sort of social issues that we had won the day, that we were on this unending cresting wave of cultural momentum, that it had sort of felt like we were on by and large, for the last 60 years, since the 1960s. Yes, there was Reagan, there was Nixon, you know, there was Bush. There were, there were moments where that progress felt. Felt slower or where there were moments of regression. But broadly speaking, we could see the arc of the moral universe over the last 60 years fairly consistently been toward justice. And I think because of that, there was maybe not the legwork done in the 2010s on some of the more emerging conversations, including on trans rights, to really fill that knowledge gap, to do the kind of public education that is unfair and uncomfortable and not easy and shouldn't be necessary to do that as fully as we had done, say for marriage equality and gay identities. And I think it ultimately resulted in a more fragile state for the progress. Now it had been, it was later than attacked through a well funded, well coordinated effort with misinformation, disinformation and caricatures by the right wing, without question. But I do think that a lot of the backsliding that we've seen was exacerbated by cultural, political and legal progress that was in some ways built on a degree of house, of degree of sand. A house built on sand. And I think we have to get back to the basics to really re. Solidify the foundation of public opinion on a whole host of issues where we can recenter the conversation on the fact that we are talking about people. At the end of the day, this is an academic or intellectual, and I think sometimes we got into a more academic or intellectual space and lost track of the fact that really we're just talking about human beings.
- [23:47]
A
Yeah, I think that's so important. You talk a lot about imperfect allies, which I think is such an important idea and something that people really need to make front and center. And I'd love you just to kind of expand a little bit on that. And I'm curious if there's any great example that you can use as one of sort of the best references for that in your experience.
- [24:20]
B
Sure. You know, I think a lot of time. A lot of times I think about the role of an imperfect ally and, you know, maybe an LGBTQ young person in rural Delaware who often feels alone, who's facing bullying and in a crisis of safety and hope, often will be forced to summon the ruthless survival skills that prioritize goodwill and good intentions over purity and perfection, that allow for that young person to just survive through the day because of that principal who maybe makes mistakes on pronouns, maybe doesn't totally get everything, but who recognizes that the student is a person who shouldn't be facing bullying or be mocked. And, you know, I get that that's not a high standard. It's not a high bar, necessarily. But I do think we have to do a better job in our politics in this moment, between making a distinction between opponents of equality and people who are still on a journey around these conversations and these policies. I think we have to do a better job of making a distinction between someone who really, their end goal is very obviously to eliminate certain kinds of identities, certain kinds of people from our public spaces, and someone who says, for instance, I want trans people to be dignity treated with dignity and respect and to have opportunities, but I do have concerns around fairness in sports, and we have to be able to make a distinction between those kinds of people and one, because if. If we say to everyone who has questions or concerns about, say, trans participation in sports, you're a bigot and you have no place in our coalition, then we're going to cap our coalition at about 30%. We're going to have a really morally pure club at the gulag we've all been sent off to. If everything is truly on the line for our democracy, as everything is truly on the line for trans people in this moment, which I believe they are, it is. Then we're going to have to have people helping us against some of the worst actions by this administration who might have those questions or concerns, but who recognize that trans people are people and are worthy of being treated with dignity and respect. And I will just say, I think one of the problems for our coalition and our party over the last decade is that we have started to treat relationships as a tool to reward or punish people for their beliefs that we deem wrong or we deem right. And that makes coalition building really challenging because we have started to treat relationships, which. I get it. I get when someone says something that you find to be offensive, especially if it's not toward you, but Toward a friend, you say, I'm going to be. I'm going to be an ally. I'm going to cut that person off. I'm going to punish them for being wrong here. And maybe that form of accountability will get them to do the right thing. Well, what that has done is it's resulted in us shedding as a coalition all of these people who we would deem to be imperfect allies. It caps our coalition when we need all of the help that we can get in this moment in this country. And I think we have to uncondition ourselves from that. To no longer treat relationships as a tool to reward or punish, but rather to start treating them as the starting point in a conversation. You cannot change those imperfect allies from imperfect to perfect if you aren't in conversation with them, if you don't have a relationship with them to pull them along. But on top of all of that, we have to move past this notion in a pluralistic society, in a big coalition that is the progressive movement, the Democratic Party, we have to move past this notion that welcoming people in means that we condone everything they think or believe. Again, you cannot change their minds if you're not in conversation with them. And you cannot build the supermajority necessary to save democracy. If you have an approach that says, I'm, I'm going to reject you if you're with me on 80% but against me on 20%. Because once you do that, I know this is a long answer, but once. This is the crux of our politics right now. Once you do that, once you say you're with me on 80%, but you're not with me on 20%, and I'm going to reject you because of where you are in the 10 or 20%, the other side does a really good job of welcoming that person in, of saying, you've been punished, you've been canceled, you've been silenced for your. For your heresy against the left. Welcome to our cause, welcome to our coalition on the right. And then human nature is that once you're then welcomed into that community on the right, even though you started out only agreeing with them on 20% of things and agreeing with us on 80% of things, human nature is that you start to adopt the beliefs and the mores and the traditions of the group of the community that you've been welcomed into. And so instead of being with Democrats on 80% of policy and against us on 20%, that person ends up being with us on only 20% of things. And with that new community they are part of, on 80% of things. And I think that's part of the public opinion regression we've seen on a whole host of cultural issues. The right has welcomed in these people who didn't sort of line up with us perfectly on issues and on rhetoric. And that has resulted in those people who have been welcomed into the right starting to change their positions on some more fundamental issues.
- [30:14]
A
Yeah, no, I think you're right. It is sort of the crux of the conversation. The one thing I might say I'm sort of curious about, though, is I. I actually think that person still only agrees with 20% of what potentially maybe the right sort of, or sort of the, you know, conservative movement may be they've just been so lambasted or chastised or, or, you know, throw, you know, or, or made fun of or even even potentially harassed because of one view or one even, or one word, right? One statement, one misstep. Even if that person takes the time to say, oh, I didn't mean that, or I apologize or I said something wrong. But if it's about a certain group of people spoken in a certain way, it's like, well, why am I helped fight. Fight for you or fight for this group of people if that's what you're going to do?
- [31:09]
B
To me, I think that. I think that that is right at the start. I think that is right in the beginning. But once they've been welcomed in, I've seen too many people, a year later, like, they start out, I start to see. I feel like social media is littered with these people. What you just described happens, and their mindset is exactly what you describe at the start. But then over the course of a couple months or a year, it becomes too difficult for them to maintain the heterodox positions in that coalition that they've been welcomed into. And so they start moving in that direction more broadly. I mean, I just, I've seen it too many times to not believe that there is a trend. That doesn't mean that's always the case. But I think what you have described is fundamentally right, which is at the start. That is the mindset that people have because. And they, and they go into that coalition that's welcoming them in, that they might actually disagree with on most things or on many things. Because I think at the end of the day, people, voters, but, but people, when they are thinking about political coalitions that they are a part of, they often will ask two questions. The first question is, what is this candidate? What is this coalition? What does this party think of me? Do they like me? And by extension, do they respect me? Will they? Do they care for me? But really, do they like me? Do I think I'm a good person? Then the second question is, what does this candidate, coalition, party think? What are their policies? If you cannot answer that first question to a voter's satisfaction, they never get to the second question, what do they think? And so when we communicate to people that we don't like them, we end up essentially cutting ourselves out of consideration for that voter. Now, people might say, you know, the Republican Party doesn't like a lot of people. And they, they, they continue to win their votes, but they do a very good job of cherry picking who they communicate that they don't like. And they have been able to cherry pick the kinds of people that they don't like in a way that they can get a majority coalition in support of them. Because a lot of people will look at these parties and say, well, the Democratic Party is an asshole to me. The Republican Party is an asshole to other people. And if I have to choose, I'm going to choose the party that's an asshole to other people, not me.
- [33:48]
A
This has been a very unusual first year in Congress and in politics. I can't imagine what you thought you were getting into and what it's been like. I know you've had a lot of priorities that you wanted to focus on and the Democrats wanted to focus on. As you now get to the end of this year and start thinking about next year, what are the priorities for you? And then specifically in regards to health care, which I know is a priority, you've said you believe that the GOP doesn't want to solve the health care problem, and I'm curious why you think that. And then sort of what your sort of focus is going into next year.
- [34:37]
B
Well, my focus throughout this year in Congress, my focus moving forward continues to be defending Delaware and delivering for Delaware. Delaware is my home. It's my heart and it's what I think about every day. And I know that that sounds like a trait cliche from a politician, but I am an absolute stateriot. I love my state and I love my constituents, and everything I do ultimately comes back to them. I said during the campaign I'd work with anyone who was willing to work with me to help Delaware. I've actually been able to introduce more bipartisan legislation than any other freshman in Congress on issues ranging from workplace benefits like family leave to consumer protections, to supporting farmers. In my district, AG is the Biggest industry in Delaware, in my district, I represent the whole state. But I've also obviously had to stand up to anyone who I believe is hurting Delaware. And there's been a lot more defense over the last year because of the Congress that I have entered and because of the administration in Washington. And at the heart of the attacks we are seeing on my constituents are attacks on our freedoms and our democracy and attacks on our health care. This, this administration has inserted a $1 trillion bomb into the center of the American health care system. And it is going off. It's going off with the expiration of the Affordable Care act tax credits, which will result in tens of thousands of my constituents seeing their health care premiums increase 100, 200, 300%. It'll go off with the historic Medicaid cuts that are on the horizon. When it goes off, 15 million people at the end of the day will lose their health coverage. But the collateral damage extends far beyond that, because when 15 million more Americans don't have health coverage, it's not that they never get careful. It's that they get care when they're sicker and it's more expensive. And when someone who is uncovered goes into a hospital to get more intensive, more expensive care, the costs are spread out to everyone else. And when you remove $1 trillion from the American health care system, cash strapped hospitals, health care clinics, doctor's offices, especially in rural communities, what do they have to do? They have to cut services and in some cases, close their doors. Which means that the communities, the patients that rely on those facilities for care, will have to drive longer, wait longer, and take more time off work to get care. And I know Donald Trump loves to own things and slap his name on them. Well, he now owns the American health care system. With what they have done, it is Trumpcare. And that means 15 million more Americans losing coverage and everyone else having to pay more and wait longer to get careful. Now, people often will say to me, they're like, well, why are the Republicans doing this? And I think at the end of the day, it all comes back to two unholy alliances that Donald Trump made over the last 10 years. The first is an unholy alliance with billionaires, with tech oligarchs, who he said to you fund my campaign and facilitate my consolidation of power, and I will pay you off with massive tax return breaks. And in order to fund those tax breaks, just partially, he had to use the health care of the American people as his piggy bank. The second reason for this assault on health care is the other unholy alliance that Donald Trump made, which is the unholy alliance that he made with the Republican Party, with Republicans in Congress. When Donald Trump became the nominee in 2016, it was a hostile takeover of the Republican Party. And that hostile takeover resulted in basically an implicit deal. Donald Trump gets to dictate policy on terrorists, immigration and on executive power, and he gets to leave everything else up to Republicans in Congress, all the other policy. And one thing that Republicans in Congress have always been consistent on is that they believe that government has no role or responsibility to guarantee health care to the American people in any form or fashion. This is where they remain genuinely small government conservatives. Because if there is one thing that Congressional Republicans have demonstrated more loyalty to than Donald Trump, it's the cutting the health care of the American people. And so when you combine these unholy alliances, the agreements with tech oligarchs and the agreement with House Republicans, that comes together to create a very clear path forward for Republicans in Washington, and that is to cut the health care of the American people to satisfy House Republicans and to help pay off billionaires.
- [39:34]
A
What's going to happen next year with these subsidies expiring and the fact that they're not going to come back? I mean, how, how are people going to survive
- [39:48]
B
if the ACA tax credits are not extended? People will not, there will be people who will not survive. I mean, that, that is, that is the reality. That is the consequence of this Republican health care agenda. It's vast, it's dangerous, and it's deadly. Like I mentioned, 50,000 of my constituents roughly are going to see their health care premiums increase 100, 200, 300%. Constituent of mine from, from, from Newcastle, a guy named Dave, his wife has severe medical conditions, several different medical conditions. She has coverage under the aca. Their health care premiums are going to skyrocket from a couple hundred dollars a month to $1,200 a month, over $10,000 a year for healthcare that this working family really can't afford. And you know, for folks who can continue to afford those types of premiums, they're going to have to pay an arm and a leg for coverage. But a lot of people will not be able to afford that coverage. And that means they will lose coverage entirely. And when you take the ACA tax credit expiration with the Medicaid cuts, a nonpartisan independent analysis found that there will be more than 50,000 deaths a year nationwide, preventable deaths a year because of this Republican created health care crisis. So, you know, we're fighting to defend the aca. We have a discharge petition on the floor to force a vote in the House on an extension of the Affordable Care act tax credits, a clean extension. The Senate this week is going to have a vote that unfortunately, I don't think will pass because I don't think enough Republicans will support it. But we're going to continue to use every lever at our, at our, at our disposal to try to extend the ACA tax credits. But Republicans clearly are not operating in good faith or with a real willingness to try to extend these tax credits because at the end of the day, they don't want to see government involved. They don't want to see government help people afford health care.
- [42:04]
A
It's very stark when you put it that way, but very true. And thank you for sharing those, those numbers and those facts. You it seems like the tide is turning a bit, as we saw from the recent elections, that we continue to see from recent elections. Whether it's just outright win for Democrats or just making inroads like with Tennessee recently, I am one of the few people who actually think, although it was, I think Democrats stumbled into it and it was by accident, I actually think ending the government shutdown when it was ended was, was actually the right time. It does to me appear that affordability has become the issue now. It does seem like people are starting to catch on to how, how radical the effect of the healthcare or subsidies changing is. And I think Democrats now going into next year have shifted the conversation and in large part it was due to the government shutdown. I wish there was some coordination and some leadership in that sense, but you know, you can only hope and dream. Do you are you optimistic now going into next year and what do you think Democrats need to do to really punctuate the point you just made and to actually cut through and get people to pay attention.
- [43:27]
B
Great questions. And and I think you are spot on that regardless of what one thinks about whether the deal that was struck was the right deal or a good deal, there is no question that the month plus of the government shutdown resulted in a spotlight being shown on the ACA tax credits specifically, but also the Republican health care crisis and their absolute indifference to the affordability crisis writ large that has resulted in not only the public feeling betrayed by Republican politicians who promise to lower costs, who promise not to cut Medicaid or Medicare, but also now recognizing that the Democratic Party is indeed the party that actually cares about affordability. And the polling over the last two months has changed pretty dramatically on that when we started this year, we had a massive deficit in public opinion when it came to the issue that was most important for people, which is affordability. That has flipped in large part because of the spotlight that we shined on these issues and the priority that we very clearly demonstrated, the prioritization that we very clearly demonstrated on these issues as we fought to extend the ACA tax credits through the shutdown and as we continue to. Do you use an important word there, which was optimism. And I always, I always try to make a distinction for people between hope and optimism. Hope is transcendent. It exists and should exist, no matter context or circumstance or chance. Optimism was more fickle. Optimism changes based on circumstance and chance and facts on the ground. And I will say to your point, I agree. I am starting to see the first glimmers of optimism since last November, November 2024, not November 2025. Partly that's the results we saw in New Jersey and Virginia and New York and Georgia and California and this past November. Partly it's the fact that, especially with Epstein. But since we have started to see cracks of disunity in the cult of personality among congressional Republicans, Epstein sort of broke the seal. But we've seen it now on other issues, from ACA tax credits to the extrajudicial killings in the Caribbean. Disunity, accountability and transparency demands for those things from Congressional Republicans in ways that would have seemed unbelievable four months or five months ago. And the public, I think, is shifting from frustrated to outright hostile to this administration and to House and Senate Republicans. As we look forward. I think we have a lot of lessons from this past November's election in New Jersey, Virginia and New York. And that is when you look at all of the successful candidates, all of them successfully employed three kinds of politics. The first kind of politics is the politics of affordability, that hyper focus on lowering the cost of health care, of housing, of groceries, of everyday services and everyday goods that people need to live and thrive in this society. The second was a politics of curiosity. I mentioned earlier, I'm a big fan of Ted Lasso. And all of these candidates, from the left to the center, they were all curious and not judgmental. They built diverse coalitions, diverse in identity and to some degree, diverse in ideology. When it was the first video that Zohram Nomdani went viral for, it was a video where he was talking to Trump voters and actually finding common ground with them, tapping the audience's curiosity, because we don't usually see a progressive Democrat and a Trump voter having a civil dialogue, let alone finding common ground with one another and implicitly communicating to the audience that no matter who you vote for, Zoran Mamdani likes you. He respects you, he sees you, he's fighting for you. And then the final thing that all of them did was a politics of place. A politics rooted in a sense of community that you were seeking to represent, regardless of what district or city or state people were running in. Their politics transcended ideology, transcended partisan affiliation, and were all about the place and the people in that place that they were seeking to govern or represent. Because people are willing to look past policy disagreements so long as they know that you are fighting for them. And when your politics is not defined by your party or your ideology, but by your community that you are fighting for, that allows us to build that super majority coalition we need to build to win everywhere so that we can ultimately deliver for everyone.
- [48:32]
A
That's great. I guess we probably learned a lot of things from Ted Lasso. Do you think that the Democratic Party. The tent needs to get bigger? The tent is big enough. The tent gotten too big. What do you, what do you hear? Things. Different things for different people. What's your take on that?
- [48:50]
B
Well, we lost the last election, so I think it's undisputable that the 10 is not big enough. We have to win in more places and with more people than we did. We have to win in deep blue areas. We have to win if we are going to have any chance of having the United States Senate in more red areas. And that means building a bigger tent. But I think what we have to recognize is a big tent goes both ways. It is not just about welcoming people who are to the center of us. It is also about making sure that people who may be to the left of some of us know that they are respected and welcomed and listened to and heard in our coalition. We need the base and we need folks who are persuadable one way or the other. It is a false choice and the notion the strategies necessary to build a big tent are not a choice between our values and selling out. We can stay true to ourselves. We can stay true to our values and welcome in people who maybe aren't with us on every single issue. Now, we obviously have to have organizing principles. We have to have sort of a basic philosophy that we are organizing around. And for me, that is in this moment. If we do truly believe that everything is on the line, then my message to anyone is if you believe that working people need a fairer deal and you believe Freedom and democracy are good, then welcome to our cause. Welcome to our coalition. This all comes back to what I said before. We have to not treat welcoming people in as condoning everything they say, believe or think. We have to recognize that politics is coalition building and politics is the art of persuasion. And the only way to persuade those people of the rightness of your position on the areas where you disagree is to be in conversation with them. And so I believe that if we can return to that, the practice of politics, then we can stay true to our values, we can win elections and we can change hearts and minds. So the things where we need larger public support for that we don't yet have them on, we can ultimately get that too.
- [51:21]
A
I think that's, that's very well said. I'm going to give you a couple more rapid fire questions and then we're going to finish up. Okay, ready? Coffee or tea?
- [51:33]
B
Coffee. 100%.
- [51:35]
A
Text or call?
- [51:38]
B
I mentioned I'm an introvert. I love a good text over a call.
- [51:42]
A
Early bird or night owl?
- [51:45]
B
Neither. 10 to noon is my prime time.
- [51:51]
A
Sweet or savory?
- [51:55]
B
Savory. But I, I mean, I do love sweet but savory. If I had to choose the waltz,
- [52:01]
A
fried chicken with some honey on it would be the perfect thing.
- [52:04]
B
No, but that's the thing. I can't, I can't mix sweet and savory. That's why.
- [52:07]
A
Okay.
- [52:08]
B
I'm, I keep them separate.
- [52:10]
A
Okay.
- [52:10]
B
All right.
- [52:11]
A
Door knocking or phone banking?
- [52:14]
B
Door knocking. 100 every, any anytime podcast or music. Depends on what I'm doing, if I'm driving, music, if I'm getting ready podcasts.
- [52:28]
A
Okay. All right. All right. I want to just before we finish up on a special, a special thank you to Lily Patrick off, who's on the zoom, who started the Juno Fund helping support women, women in politics and introduced me to you. So I just want to say thank you to her and a special shout out to what she's working on in the Juno Fund.
- [52:52]
B
I love Lily.
- [52:55]
A
And. And then now maybe in theory, what should be probably the easiest question, but somehow it seems to become the hardest question as, as we finish up here, what would you say it means to be a Democrat today? And how would you convince somebody that supporting the Democratic Party is what's in the best interest of this American experiment as we get towards our 250th anniversary?
- [53:25]
B
So like I said before, right now, I believe the organizing principles of the Democratic Party are two core beliefs. One is that the economy is not working for people and we need a fairer deal for working families. And two, that the greatness of this country lies in our imperfect, all too slow, but perpetual pursuit of more freedom and truer democracy. And when you look at the story of our country, the parties have changed. The. The coalitions look different. But when you look at every great step that this country has made, it has been those on the left who have fought for and ultimately delivered that progress. Whether it was the abolition of slavery, the passage of the 13th Amendment, the guarantee of equal protection with the 14th Amendment, it was, for lack of a better term, liberals who did that. When women got the right to vote, when Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid were created, when the Affordable Care act was passed, it was people with our values and our beliefs who delivered them. And over the last 100 years, from the Great Depression on, which party has delivered progress for working people in this country? It has been the Democratic Party. We crafted and passed Social Security. We crafted and passed Medicare and Medicaid. We crafted and passed the Affordable Care Act. We are the ones that ultimately got the Civil Rights act and the Voting Rights act passed. Every step of the way, conservatives have fought us. Every step of the way, conservatives have tried to slow down or stop that progress that most people in this country recognize is what has made this country great and has guaranteed that we live in the most free and prosperous society that has ever existed in the history of humanity. And that is our charge. That is our responsibility in this moment. Not just as Democrats, not just as progressives or liberals, but as Americans. We can move forward. We can build or we can destroy, and we can stand in the way of progress. I choose, and I believe Democrats choose to build and to move forward because that's the only way. That's the only way we can truly make this country as great and as perfect as we know it can be.
- [56:18]
A
Well, Delaware is lucky to have you fighting for them, and we're lucky to have you in Congress. So I really appreciate everything you're doing. If I was in Delaware, I'd vote for you. I'm going to contribute money to you, which you can do from anywhere. You don't have to be in Delaware, so we can do that. Sarah McBride.com I really appreciate. I really appreciate your time and everything you have to say. I feel like I learned so much and I can't. Look, we can't wait to have some fried chicken with you at Walt's next year.
- [56:51]
B
I look forward to that. Come visit me. Thank you so much for having me, Jamie. This is a great conversation.
- [56:57]
A
Thanks, Sarah. I really appreciate it. Okay, bye everybody. Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of Lunch with Jamie. As always, be sure to subscribe to my newsletter@jamieslist.com for my thoughts on all things food, pop culture, politics and more. And remember to join these online online conversations and ask my guests questions in real time. Sign up to become a paid subscriber. You can listen on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or Audible and be sure to leave a review. Thanks and see you next time.