Luxury Living: Lighting Industry's Decades-Long Failure & Who's Reshaping + Fixing It - Tom Doherty

Summary

LytePod Episode Summary
Episode Title: Luxury Living: Lighting Industry's Decades-Long Failure & Who's Reshaping + Fixing It
Host: Lytei
Guest: Tom Doherty
Date: May 12, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of LytePod brings together host Lytei and guest Tom Doherty, an industry veteran now leading transformative efforts in how lighting solutions reach luxury and residential spaces. The conversation pulls back the curtain on decades of missed opportunities in the lighting industry, analyzing why it “failed” to create consumer desire the way other home features (like kitchen appliances) have—and how integrators are now shifting this narrative. Doherty delves into the practical, creative, and sometimes chaotic realities of integrating lighting into high-end projects, explaining who’s succeeding, who’s learning, and how lighting is finally becoming a central, valued part of both design and the homeowner experience.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Role and Rise of Integrators

• Misconceptions About Integrators: Most people lump all integrators together, misunderstanding the spectrum of expertise and specialization. According to Doherty, only a small fraction (about 100) out of 18,000–20,000 “integrators” are truly excelling in lighting.

  “You can't just call plumbers, plumbers and electricians, electricians and custom builders, custom builders and put them all in the same bucket.” (00:00, Tom Doherty)

• Integrator as Client Advocates: Integrators serve as the direct link between manufacturers and homeowners, developing deep relationships and acting as project managers, designers, and educators all at once.

  “We are the direct link. We are the only person between them and the client. That's why our relationships are directly with the manufacturer...” (00:21, Tom Doherty)

2. How Integrators Got Pulled Into Lighting

• Accidental Beginnings: Integrators didn’t originally seek out lighting as a category. Initially, their only concern was lighting control (mainly wattage). But as LEDs and smart controls complicated the ecosystem, they were forced to learn and eventually take ownership of fixture specification and even design:

  “We got pulled into it in that we were touching lighting, but strictly from a lighting control standpoint… ultimately, we kind of had to take the bull by the horns and learn more about lighting.” (02:23, Tom Doherty)

3. Project Management: The Secret Sauce

• The "Shelf of Shame": The challenge in lighting integration is managing complexity—errors lead to wasted inventory (“the shelf of shame”). Doherty draws a sharp line between companies: those with robust project management thrive; those without it struggle.

  “You can measure how good of a project manager… based on how big is your shelf of shame.” (06:03, Tom Doherty)

4. Manufacturer Partnerships—A New Dynamic

• Relationship-Driven Business: Manufacturers are becoming more aware of the custom integration channel. Success depends less on the sheer number of manufacturer relationships, and more on the depth of partnership and reliability.

  “We want to deliver solutions with as few… manufacturers as we can because we have to depend on the kind of service… you build by supporting people to the max.” (10:18, Tom Doherty)

• Client Experience Is Paramount: The analogy of a “concierge at a five-star hotel” illustrates just how essential responsiveness and trust are for integrators.

  “It's kind of like a concierge at a five-star hotel… and then when they need a favor… they need to be able to make that call.” (11:09, Tom Doherty)

5. Learning Curves: Comparing Shades and Lighting

• New Vocabulary & Higher Complexity: While the integration of shades brought new terminology, lighting is even more complex and risk-prone for mistakes—requiring new skills in design and coordination.

  “Lighting has got way more variables, a lot more to learn, a lot easier to make big mistakes… it for sure has a much more painful start for an integrator taking it on.” (13:01 & 15:52, Tom Doherty)

6. Barriers, Economics, and Motivation

• Duty Over Profit: Many integrators feel compelled to offer lighting—not just for margin, but to save clients from “mediocrity” and get in earlier in the project lifecycle.

  “The reason why they do it is… they see the mediocrity of what's going to happen otherwise… it's our duty to create the awareness of what's possible.” (18:51, Tom Doherty)

7. Why Some Succeed and Others Don’t

• Attitude Towards Change: The main failure point is lack of will to adapt, or underestimating the effort involved.

  “Some people just don't want change or just don't want to take. You know, either they recognize that looks like a lot of work, or, you know, I don't need to do that.” (22:45, Tom Doherty)

• Early Stages of Adoption: Many try and retreat at the first sign of difficulty, but the field is still in its infancy.

  “I'm sure there are examples of people that try to don't succeed and say, well, I'm not doing that again… It's still really early in this whole curve.” (23:08, Tom Doherty)

8. Lighting in the Residential World vs. Commercial

• Fewer Gatekeepers: Unlike commercial projects with developers, designers, and GCs, in residential the integrator is the sole decision-maker for product, design, procurement, and service.

  “In our world you don't have to market to all those different people. You don't have to convince the lighting designer and the developer and the builder…” (24:00, Tom Doherty)

• No Value Engineering: Designs are more likely to be implemented as specified, preserving design integrity.

  “That results in almost every single time, no value engineering. So the integrator is able to specify the job and the integrity of the design… sticks.” (24:00, Tom Doherty)

9. Market Growth and Product Curation

• Selective Manufacturer Integration: The market is growing but still nascent; careful curation of vendors ensures ROI for those who pioneered the vertical.

  “[We] purposely curated… partnerships… with as few manufacturers as possible because these manufacturers that came over in the earliest days… the sales weren't that great and they've been climbing...” (27:45, Tom Doherty)

• Exponential Opportunity: Lighting control is now common, but fixture specification by integrators is rapidly growing.

  “Probably of those 50 [projects], they're only providing three or four… with fixtures on them. And next year will be 6, and the next year it'll be 10, and… eventually… every single project...” (27:45, Tom Doherty)

10. The Industry's Historic Failure—And the Path Forward

• Raising Awareness Drives Demand: Historically, poor consumer awareness held back lighting—unlike the kitchen or bath industries, lighting never “productized the desire.”

  “The lighting industry is such a failure. When you look at from the 80s, 90s, 2000s, what people have spent on kitchen appliances… But you make them aware and it's like, oh, I want that.” (31:19 & 34:38, Tom Doherty)

• Educating by Demonstration: Once customers experience quality lighting in integrated showrooms, demand skyrockets.

  “I did my demonstration of layers of light and wall washing versus precision adjustable… they all saw that for the first time.” (31:19, Tom Doherty)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The shelf of shame…"

  “You can measure how good of a project manager… based on how big is your shelf of shame.” (06:03, Tom Doherty)

• On integrator relationships:

  “It's kind of like a concierge at a five-star hotel…” (11:09, Tom Doherty)

• Cultural Mindshift:

  “Lighting has got way more variables… a lot easier to make big mistakes. It for sure has a much more painful start for an integrator taking it on.” (15:52, Tom Doherty)

• On why integrators embraced lighting:

  “They see the mediocrity of what's going to happen otherwise, and they know that they could make their clients home environment that much better. That's what we're all about.” (18:51, Tom Doherty)

• Industry failure in context:

  “The lighting industry is such a failure. When you look at from the 80s, 90s, 2000s, what people have spent on kitchen appliances... But you make them aware and it's like, oh, I want that.” (34:38, Tom Doherty)

• Demonstrating what's possible:

  “All those neighbors would come over and like there’s something about oh my God… and then they would go back to their house and they’d say we hate you. Our house looks terrible. I had no idea.” (34:38, Tom Doherty)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:00 — Opening, integrators' unique role and industry misconceptions
• 02:23 — Accidental adoption of lighting; learning curve for integrators
• 06:03 — Project management challenges, "shelf of shame" concept
• 10:18 — Importance of direct manufacturer-integrator relationships
• 13:01 — Introducing and comparing shades, lighting as new complex vertical
• 15:52 — Pain points and risks for integrators embracing lighting
• 18:51 — Motivation for integrators: Client-first philosophy and earlier involvement
• 24:00 — Residential vs. commercial lighting supply chains
• 27:45 — Market growth, early adoption, and future trends
• 31:19 & 34:38 — Raising awareness; why the industry failed; demonstration effect

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Closing Remarks

Tom Doherty underscores that the residential lighting industry is at an inflection point: with the right awareness, tools, and partnerships, integrators are not only making homes more beautiful and functional but are overcoming decades of “failure” to capture imagination and market share. The episode wraps with a call for collaboration between lighting experts and integrators, and a recognition of a new, more intentional era for lighting in luxury living.

“The lighting, the traditional professional lighting experts, we should be collaborating and working together because… we can really achieve great things, 100%.” (37:41, Tom Doherty)

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For listeners: You’ll get an honest look into the evolution and promise of home lighting integration—from “shelf of shame” to delighting clients beyond their imagination. The message: When you show people great lighting, they never want to go back.

Transcript

[A]

You can't just call plumbers, plumbers and electricians. Electricians and custom builders, custom builders and put them all in the same bucket.

[B]

Tom Daugherty used to be an integrator, but now he's quietly reshaping how lighting actually reaches people's homes. He is, in the best way possible, the Willy Wonka of custom integration and lighting coming together.

[A]

A lot of people just think of integrator and they stick all of us, all 20,000 companies in the same bucket. But there's, there's this other segment. We are the direct link. We are the only person between them and the client. That's why our relationships are directly with the manufacturer and because we're working with homeowners, there is a limited number of seats at this table. Really quickly our people can learn and know more about lighting than the architect does, the builder, the electrician, the interior designer, the client. So all sudden the lighting industry is such a failure. When you look at from the 80s, 90s, 2000s, what people have spent on kitchen appliances, almost everybody used to have a kitchenaid and now certain houses have a wolf, but you make them aware and it's like, oh, I want that. And that's what the integration channel is doing, is they're exposing people to what's possible to that the lighting industry has failed to do for decades.

[B]

And all you have to do is stand up and say, welcome to the party. Let me teach you a few things. Every project deserves lighting that feels intentional, not like an afterthought you settled for under deadline pressure. That's why Lucetta CI engineered a linear lighting portfolio that integrates seamlessly with control systems. You already specific ships from a ready inventory in Reno and arrives when you actually need it. Residential, commercial and custom. Their team builds solutions around integrators, not the other way around. Lucetta CI is custom integration made easy. Check them [e-mail] Adding a category is hard. Lighting as a category. Is this something that integrators wanted or was it something that they got pulled into?

[A]

They got pulled into. They had no intention, clearly no intention of providing it or selling it or dealing with it. We got pulled into it in that we were touching lighting, but strictly from a lighting control standpoint. But over time, lighting control became a very common thing on almost every project. And at that time, the only thing you need to be concerned about was the wattage load on a switch leg or on a dimming module. So the integrator just needed to calculate up and understand from whoever was providing the fixtures what is the total wattage and that was it. Things worked great. You know, we're there to troubleshoot and make things fix and often maybe with things that we didn't provide, but somehow it's tied to our system. And LEDs were tied to these lighting control systems. So we were experiencing flicker and cutoff and non performing dimming. We had to kind of jump in and start in the beginning influencing on what went into the project. That has limits because people don't always do what you tell them to do. So ultimately we kind of had to take the bull by the horns and learn more about lighting, understand it and starting to not just influence on decisions that were made on projects, but actually start providing it.

[B]

What different categories of integrators exist around working with lighting in the current environment of residential construction?

[A]

By and large, the ones that have taken on this new category have invested the time and effort into it over the last several years. Because it's pretty new that people that integrators have done this. Primarily it's the more most advanced. But you can't say that generally because I'm sure there, I know that there are integrators that are not as prepared as others. So there is differentiation between one integration company and another. You can't just call plumbers. Plumbers and electricians. Electricians and custom builders. Custom builders and put them all in the same bucket. I'll make up a number. I'll say that there's first of all, like you mentioned, there's between 18 and 20,000 people that might call themselves an integrator. So what does that mean? That means somebody that can buy a TV mount and offer a service and help some family mount install their wall television. Serious integration companies that are really competent along traditional means. You know, there could be, you know, three or 4,000 of those and maybe there are 500 or 600 that presently, after a number of years, we're in 20, 26 that will raise their hand and say, yeah, we're providing you lighting control. Oh, and by the way, we can help you with the right kind of LED solutions, whether it's linear tape or recess. And there's a range of that too. There's some that are finding their way. I would say that there are. This is probably debatable, but I would say that there are a hundred that are really pretty good at it.

[B]

Now what would you say, you know, their current limitation is and what they're still interested in trying to know and learn more about?

[A]

And again, it just depends. There's some people that don't have any limitation now because they've invested in it, they've been doing it for a while and they're pretty expert at it a because they've taken it so seriously that they've been able to bring in traditional professional lighting design employees. The top integrators are as experienced as anybody on the planet for project managing complex technology solutions. So they've been at it long enough that they're excellent at PMing the lighting and the commissioning and they've got the great lighting design capability in house. Others are, you know, using it third party. So there are a number of people that don't have any weaknesses. Now the number one limitation is primarily creating the processes such that they're efficient at project managing these projects because there's as you know, a lot of complexity, not just with the lighting, but the realities of the construction site and the changes that occur. And high performance lighting, spec grade lighting is generally built to order and they're not returnable. And so we have this concept called the shelf of shame. So you know, you can measure how good of a project manager or how tight your processes are as an integrator based on, you know, how big is your shelf of shame. But we've learned that there are kind of two camps. Both camps can be really successful and their team can talk the talk and they can demonstrate it and they can sell it. And then one company is humming along and the other one is struggling. And the differentiator we've, you know, put our finger on is, is the project management side because as a whole, you know, we do very complex things with the other categories that we deliver and a lot of them. But the lighting is just a whole nother set and it requires, you know, you got to be all in and you really gotta, you really have to up, you really have to discover and create processes that are not intuitive.

[B]

I want to talk more about that and, and how that shift is, is approaching us maybe faster than we see. But before, before we go dive into that, I want to talk about kind of the other part of this business which is the supply and what's being supplied and that's luminaires. What's driving manufacturing to want to be a part of this channel?

[A]

The manufacturer's awareness of it has rapidly increased. We have I think 60 non exhibiting manufacturers and maybe that's 35 companies, but there's I think 35 separate companies on the show floor. Taken a look and it appears that you know, the commercial space is, you know, not maybe it's doing fine. But I think manufacturers are, you know, becoming aware of this new vertical and then a lot of it is because there was a little, maybe a little stigma amongst manufacturers to, to go after this new vertical. And so they had to work through managing the perceived conflicts and disruption that this channel seemed to bring about. And now that enough of them have crossed the picket line, let's say now, it's like everybody wants to be in. Everybody. Everybody. We turned away 30 manufacturers from the show floor that wanted to exhibit here because we're looking for, we're looking for manufacturers that understand the channel first and are then also willing to make the investment in supporting this vertical which is different than what they're used to. It's different, different flow.

[B]

My quick perception of that is it's just additional revenue for them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is it anything beyond that?

[A]

Our industry won't support 350 lines. We have three automation lines. There's only a, there used to be hundreds of speaker lines. We want to deliver solutions with a few of the manufacturers as we can because we have to depend on the kind of service and relationship that you build by supporting people to the max. And you need to be able to have a relationship. So if, hey, I need something overnighted and I'm in trouble and you have a relationship with, you know, the person, you know, it's not just inside sales or customer support or whatever. It's like, you know, you get that by you know, being a great patron of your partners.

[B]

Why, why do they feel like they need to know someone versus just a general inbox?

[A]

We're serving people that don't have to have what we have. Our responsiveness and our quality and our ability to fix things and make our clients lives smooth as possible. It's kind of like a concierge at a five star hotel. You know, they know they have certain relationships with restaurants and they shove them enough business because they deserve it of it. And then when they need a favor and they need a table, they need to be able to make that call.

[B]

It's driven by the client.

[A]

Yeah, we are completely driven by the client. And I'm sure every manufacturer says the same thing. But we are the direct link. We are the only person between them and the client. They're not going through distribution and the agency and the specifier and the architect and the developer and so on and so forth. That's why our relationships are directly with the manufacturer and because we're working with homeowners who we are giving the highest level of service and we have that level of relationship, we expect that same sort of connection with our vendor partners. And so the ones that give us that and we've developed these multi year relationships, we're able to get the job done with as few people as possible. There is a limited number of seats at this table and it doesn't matter how big or important you are in the commercial space, it's at this point getting harder and harder to find a seat at the table because the people that are already here and have been supporting the integrator from the beginning and took the risk are it's going to be pretty hard to displace them.

[B]

People all day like to right now kind of compare lighting and shading because it's, you know, the current category being added compared to the last category being added. What's the same and what's different?

[A]

Primarily, most of the technologies that the channel has been serving have been entertainment based. And so shades was a life, you know, lifestyle. I mean, all of them is lifestyle, but, you know, had a decorative function to it. And normally, you know, why would an AV guy provide shades? And it made sense because they were motors and you could integrate it with the lighting control system and you're controlling natural light and artificial light. And so people, when that was first introduced was like, why would I do that? The interior designer does that or somebody else does that. But turned out that the integration channel drives the motorized shade business. And what was challenging about that was a whole new things that you need to learn. Networking. All the other things that were added to our, our world in the entertainment side, new formats, that sort of stuff you could adapt. This was a new vocabulary. Inside mount, outside mount, ripple, fold, pinch, pleat, deflection, reflectance, transmission, openness factors, all that was like new stuff you had to learn. It was an area that you can make mistakes, measure wrong, own the thing. Oh, I measured the shade. If it was too short, you were in trouble. If it was too long, there were tricks you could do where you could cut things in the field. Lighting also was like, well, the electrician provides that or somebody else provides that or the lighting show. Why would I do that? You know, that doesn't make any sense. And it's a whole new vernacular to learn. It had this impact on the vibe of the space, not just through audio and video, but feeling. And what was also similar was the new vernacular. What's different about it? It's a lot more complex than shades. Shades is pretty easy to learn and pretty easy to figure out how not to make mistakes. Windows are easy to measure. A lot of that stuff happens after it's all installed. So you just need to get the wire in the right place for shade. Great business. High margin doesn't fail. People need lots of them. Lighting has got way more variables, a lot more to learn, a lot easier to make. Big mistakes. Oh, I didn't realize the cabinets were coming out that far. But it for sure has a much more painful start for an integrator taking it on.

[B]

I can only guess what you mean by painful start, so I have to ask you to elaborate a little bit more on that.

[A]

Most, most projects are builder driven, electrician driven. And that is just, you know, specking, you know, 100 contractor grade cans on a job, whatever. Now that dealers can learn the vernacular, you can be the smartest person on the whole project really quickly. You, our people can learn and know more about lighting than the architect does, the builder, the electrician, the interior designer, the client. So all sudden, you know more about it than everybody else pretty easily. And then if your showroom, if you fit it out, you can demonstrate and show things that no one is being shown. It's like client sees art lit for the first time for the, you know, well, or they see, you know, things accented in layers of light demonstrated to them for the first time. Because you don't go in lighting showrooms and see layers of light. So you can, so everybody's like, great. And then our people are really good at putting proposals together and selling complete technology packages. So all of a sudden, you know, there's, you know, pretty nice proposal for really great lighting. And then it's time to order the stuff. And just that it's really the project management part. There's all kinds of challenges that occur during that process of then coordinating, you know, telling the electrician, we got a different plan that you were bid from and that you worked on and everybody's expecting for you to reprice this, but here I'm going to provide all this stuff and it needs to go here, there, wherever. And then, oh, well, it looked good on paper on that reflected ceiling plan, but the framing doesn't allow any of that. So what changes do we need to make under the current construction reality? And it's like, okay, we got to redraw this. Oh, we ordered the wrong stuff, we ordered too much stuff. We didn't order enough stuff. And then, you know, every manufacturer is different on how they package it up. All sudden, you know, the salesman and the owner all excited, they flip this order over, that this needs to be order, and it's like, well, I don't know who any of these vendors are. Who now, who do I call? And then they order the wrong thing and then a bunch of trims show up that are wrong. And then they got to scramble around and get the. I mean, it just. There's lots of places for failure, lots of points of failure. And. And then the AV guy has to eat all that.

[B]

So when you talk about all the points of failure, what's the economics of that? For an integrator as it relates to everything they have to provide in order to get lighting on a project, the

[A]

reason why they do it is that they feel it's their duty to serve their client. They see the mediocrity of what's going to happen otherwise, and they know that they could make their clients home environment that much better. That's what we're all about. Been working with architects for decades. We've been working with interior designers, and we're sensitive to design. And so we now know that, that there could be something better about lighting than what this client's going to end up with. So we kind of feel it's our duty to create the awareness of what's possible. And so that's why we want to do it. And then I've been evangelizing the reason why you do it, in addition to being a good citizen, is it gets you into the conversation earlier. Again, there was a time when what we were doing was super cool. Like the dawn of home theater is like no one, you know, that was like super cool. And then the earliest days of home automation. Oh, that sounds cool. That's cool. But people become numb to that. And so. And now it's not just one integrator in a market. You know, there's dozens or 100 integrators in the market. And so I experience myself that evangelizing better lighting created a gateway for me to get involved in the project earlier. And so the motivation is that is to get in the conversation earlier. And what I mean by that is not being called into, okay, we're ready to figure this out. And Sheetrock is going to go up, you know, in four weeks or whatever. The house is framed. You know, we need a quote on the AV stuff. We need with this lighting and being able to educate the builders and the architects and the designers and our former clients in our showrooms. And they see something that, wow, you can do all that. Then they're inviting us while they're sketching out the house, and then you're part of the design team. And when you're part of the design team, you are able to, through that period of time, create trust and credibility. And then when it's time to talk about where televisions and stereos and outdoor stuff and cameras and all the other things we do, it's a very easy

[B]

conversation going back to those hundred integrators that are in it today and the 500 who are right behind them wanting to get into it. Is it growing revenue or is it getting it right?

[A]

It's getting it right. And the evidence of that is integrators, the top ones, take seriously of operating at a level of excellence that the kind of customers and projects around require. These people take what they do really seriously because they also are very much on the hook. You know, it's not like, you know, I'm going to install a pool and then, you know, you can't get me to come back. A lot of people just think of integrator and they stick all of us, all 20,000 companies in the same bucket. But there's. There's this other segment, just like in any profession, but in ours, there's a segment that operates at the highest levels, highest ethical integrity levels, and that is, by large, the group that is pursuing this next category. And they're investing their time and energies into learning from the best in the business.

[B]

What's the number one reason they fail at adopting this category?

[A]

Some people just don't want change or just don't want to take. You know, either they recognize that looks like a lot of work, or, you know, I don't need to do that. I, you know, and some people, you know, it's like, hey, I'm doing well just providing the AV and I'll just let somebody else do that. You know, some. Some are. Some are doing that. Some are.

[B]

What about the ones that try, that don't succeed?

[A]

I'm sure there are examples of people that try to don't succeed and say, well, I'm not doing that again. You know, okay, I stuck my hand in the disposal and it was running. That wasn't smart. It's still really early in this whole curve.

[B]

So let's talk about the last thing. None of this happens without the product.

[A]

Yeah, right.

[B]

Undeniably, unequivocally, the people who are taking advantage of all of these systems in their homes have the opportunity to afford it. You mentioned earlier, they don't necessarily need it, but they like it and it's fun. So lighting has to become fun and sexy and cool and fascinating and interesting. What is the biggest difference between the commercial world that lighting manufacturing knows and

[A]

this world, the commercial world has got a lot more gates to go through for it to ultimately have their product on a project. And in our world it's nothing like that. In our world you don't have to market to all those different people. You don't have to convince the lighting designer and the developer and the builder and the GC and on and on and on and on. The manufacturer in our world just has to earn the trust and support of the integrator because the integrator is the person that you know, acquires the client or the opportunity they acquire. That that's not done by agencies in our world do not acquire opportunities manufacturers don't generally acquire. This is all like all politics are local. Our thing is the relationships with somebody building a house. The integrators are able to identify the opportunity. The integrator works directly with the person that writes the check, the client generally. The integrator then is able to find the opportunity, ultimately design the project, submit the proposal and the bid, get the thing accepted, place the order, procure it, deliver it, project, manage it, commission it, service it. So one point of contact handles all of that. And so there aren't a bunch of people stepping on it and participating in it. And so you don't have multiple people that have to be convinced or so on and so forth. And then that results in almost every single time, no value engineering. So the integrator is able to specify the job and the integrity of the design and the intent of the product and performance. That's being spec'd sticks. That's a big difference. Prior to joining HTSA, I was doing this since 2008, talking to manufacturers. So it's almost 20 years ago now and I've been with HTSA since 2017 and the big education is educating the manufacturers that first we can bring you projects that you otherwise will never have seen. But, but you have to do business and support us and have support services that are identical to all the other vendors that we deal with, meaning the television, the Sonys of the world, the speaker manufacturers of the world, the Crestrons. Their big learning curve has been to figure out how they can go. Their go to market strategy has to be completely adapted to, to how our channel works. And everything that they do in the commercial world has to be forgotten and left at their office.

[B]

Do you think that it's achievable for lighting manufacturing to set up and support that set of demands 100%?

[A]

And they've all adapted and feel just like every other vendor partner in all the other categories that we work with.

[B]

Is it a one in, one out already with lighting manufacturing in terms of what this channel is willing to support versus what's already in it?

[A]

You know, the market size is X size. It's much bigger than it was last year and the year before. And, you know, the growth of integrators providing lighting on projects is greater than prior, but it's still a tiny percent of the potential. I would put it this way. Almost every project today does get some level of lighting control. Almost every project today gets some shades on it. When shades were introduced, almost zero projects got shades on them. I would say today that even the most successful integrator, let's say they do 50 projects and probably 48 of them, 49 of them have lighting control on them. And maybe, you know, a similar number have some motorized shades on them. Probably of those 50, they're only providing three or four of those projects with fixtures on them. And next year will be 6, and the next year it'll be 10, and next year it'll be 25, and eventually high probability, they'll be providing intelligent lighting fixtures on every single project they're providing lighting control on. So the growth opportunity is such. And so as the more and more growth happens, there's more room for more manufacturers, not 350. We purposely curated, you know, our partnerships with HTSA with as few manufacturers as possible because these manufacturers that came over in the earliest days, you know, they were, the sales weren't that great and they've been climbing and we've needed them to get an ROI on their investment in this channel. And I didn't want to dilute their efforts by, you know, piling on more members within our group. And then with lidapalooza, we carefully selected a few and over time we've allowed more in based on what I believe to be the elasticity of what the demand is.

[B]

I think there's respect, right? Yeah, there's, there's mutual respect to say if this is going to come into our, our core set of responsibilities as custom home integrators, let's not try to do it all at once and let's work to get it right. And there's the fortuitous opportunity to be first. A home can only have so many, I guess, applications of lighting, so that probably limits it a little, but at the end of the day, it's the way of doing business. It's a mindset, it's a, it's a Mind shift from the commercial world as you look at where we're at today and where we go three to five years from now. You alluded to more projects for integrators, but holistically, the value of lighting, good lighting, understanding lighting, designing with lighting. I can't, I can't help but get excited to think about the fact that well, maybe a thousand or two thousand people a year are getting beautiful lighting their homes. Because I hire the world's best and elite. There's now 10,000, maybe 100,000 people a year getting something better than what's off the electrician's cart in their home. I think it advocates for just like the broad general awareness of good lighting. Do you?

[A]

Yeah, it's awareness. So why is there such contractor grade stuff so prevalent throughout the United States except for a few markets? And then why me? From Indianapolis in 2008 when I built a lighting lab and it started showing it to homeowners, the same homeowners that we're going to get contractor grade lighting and I did my demonstration of layers of light and wall washing versus precision adjustable versus a projector and they all saw that for the first time. I even demonstrated. Yeah, I know you want a white baffle, but let me show, show you what an Alzac is. See this? The same amount of light is hitting but there's no glare. Oh, no one's ever shown that to me. So there's, there's what, what this integration channel is doing is it's increasing the awareness amongst people and once they see it, they want it. And, and to me that was my frustration as I was starting to lobby these manufacturers two decades ago is like, you know, we, we can serve people that you're otherwise not seeing and then ultimately you as an industry, the lighting industry is such a failure. When you look at from the 80s, 90s, 2000s, what people have spent on kitchen appliances. Almost everybody used to have a KitchenAid and now certain houses have a wolf. I mean that whole wolf thing and fancier stoves and higher end Italian cabinetry homes. In the 80s everybody had Formica and laminate and then Corian came out. And what people have spent and their other technologies that we've been delivering has ever elevated based on awareness. And oh, I didn't know you could have that. I'd like to have that. And so we are now demonstrating to a base of consumers of what's possible and oh, I had no idea because when you're building a home and the general contractor has, you go and look at the Stone center and the kitchen cabinet place. They send you to the lighting showroom. What happens at the lighting showroom? 95% decoratives. No lighting lab, no demonstration, no lighting design services. Most people just go in and put in. You know, everybody has the same stuff. But then when you show them what's possible, I had no idea. You know, in the 80s like well you can have this 26 inch trinitron or I can use this commercial grade broadcast Sony projector and somehow we'll give you a 10 foot screen. I had no idea I could have that. And home theater is this giant explosion. Home automation is this giant explosion. I didn't know I could have motorized shades. I didn't know I could have a single button and make all lights turn off. Oh, I thought I had to have lighting that was like this, Is this all I get? 4 cans and a fan? Yes, that's what you get.

[B]

And if you put it in people's homes, those people leave and they go places. They own companies, they own businesses. And the answer is if I have it here, can I have it there? And the answer is yeah, you can.

[A]

The last short story is I learned a little bit about lighting and I built a house with pulte production home. And so we're in a neighborhood with everybody's got essentially the same floor plan, same elevation, different materials, 31 lots. And I was able to convince polti supervisor to allow me. I put in all at the time. This is 2012 Juno Aculux Halogen 3 inch Mr. 16s. The rest of the houses were all BR65 6 inch cans throughout. And so I did an intentional lighting and I just said hey, you know the electrician, he can keep all the fixtures, I just want him to place them. So I did that. And you know, and so all those neighbors would come over and like there's something about oh my God. And then they would go back to their house and they'd say we hate you. Our, our house looks like is terrible. And I had no idea. And that's. And every one of those neighbors of mine could have afforded and would have selected that because every other high end thing that they opted for the options they did. But production homes aren't motivated. No one's motivated. The industry's not motivated. The builders aren't motivated, electricians aren't motivated. No one's motivated. The lighting industry is not motivated to educate the differences in what lighting is. No one's aware of it, but you make them aware. And it's like oh, I want that. And that's what the integration channel is doing, is they're exposing people to what's possible that the lighting industry has failed to do for decades. And we are delivering higher quality lighting than otherwise would happen. I think as an aggregate that's occurred over the last three decades.

[B]

I would say I wouldn't have known anything about anything you shared with me three years ago. I love lighting. I've been in this industry for a while. So thanks for summing it up and sharing it, sharing it with me and everybody else who gets a chance to listen to this. It's, it's a cool moment for lighting. That's my take. Like there are. Name a profession, name it, name a trade, name a name a feature, I don't care. Call lighting whatever you want to call it. How often does thousands, let alone five or ten thousand people come running and say, I want to be a part of what you do. And all you have to do is stand up and say, welcome to the party. Let me teach you a few things. Keep going, keep doing it, Keep light up, losing it up, and have fun. Thanks for your passion and your commitment.

[A]

Well, thank you. I've enjoyed getting to know of you over the years and I really appreciate what you're doing and bringing these communities together because there's a lot that we can do together. The lighting, the traditional professional lighting experts, we should be collaborating and working together because I think both communities working together and understanding each other, that we can really achieve, ever achieve great things, 100%.

[B]

Thanks, Tom.

[A]

Thanks, Sam.