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- [00:00]
Michele
We try to be as we are. We don't sell something that we are not.
- [00:05]
Host/Announcer
Michele is an architect from Italy and Travis is a lighting designer from Los Angeles. They've built spaces around the world and light is something that brings them both together.
- [00:16]
Michele
They call it la bella vita. It's like enjoying life that we have. The key to design spaces that allows you to enjoy life.
- [00:26]
Travis
You know, lighting design in the global scheme is a small piece of the building design pie and probably because there
- [00:33]
Michele
is a lot of technical issues about that that we are not capable of managing and you need this sensitivity.
- [00:43]
Travis
So there's the obvious, the visual component, but then the health and well being when you get into daylighting, circadian rhythms and everything. So how humans interact with light on a daily basis without even acknowledging it,
- [00:54]
Michele
we probably should need to teach our children how to feel the light, how to see the light.
- [01:00]
Travis
It's a fine line between too much, too little, what is the right amount? But also, where is that light going? When is it on?
- [01:15]
Host/Announcer
Before we jump in, I want to thank five companies that show up for this community. Mark Diode, led, Kelvix, Ledflex and Targetti usa. Because this show exists thanks to their belief in designers and the way they work every single day. Before we get into this episode, I want to talk about a company I think is worth your attention, and that's Mark. Here's the truth. Nobody gets into design to manage logistics. You got into this to shape how people experience space. But somewhere between the concept and the install, the friction creeps in the timelines, the specs, the supply chain, that's the problem the team at Mark is actually solving. Their architectural linear portfolio is built to disappear into your intent. Restrained when the space calls for it, bold when the moment demands it. Always serving the architecture, never competing with it. And behind it, the kind of specification, simplicity and manufacturing scale that lets you stay focused on the work that matters. Get back to designing Mark Lighting. Acuitybrands.com this is a conversation from a
- [02:20]
Sam
special moment at Leyton Building in Frankfurt, Germany, and I want to welcome both of you. Someone has to value design. Someone has to want to pay you for your time. It's not necessarily a conversation about the business of design, right. But it's a conversation of how you build and protect what you have. And then you get people to buy into you. And I have to imagine not really selling them, but you're inspiring them themselves. When you look at who you are, when you look at what you do, how do you protect the integrity of your craft?
- [02:56]
Michele
Well, it's really important. I think integrity means a lot of things for us, means being honest with our process and have a clear vision of what we want to get, where we want to get, and try to get as much as we can to pursue that final idea. That means that during the process, you don't have to be, you know, always just protective of the concept. You have to start a dialogue with the place where you are the client, the community where you work with. And then your concept needs to have this integrity till the end. But with a lot of things that change the course of that process. We as a firm, we also try to get as much as we can inside competence, inside things that we want to control. So we have a render house inside a model making laboratory. Communication. We're doing from inside because everything is project for us. Everything is our way of communicating. So will be very strange for us to call an agency to do our communication because our communication is part of what we are. So in the years we try to get everything inside, which is unusual for a lot of firms, but for us, it's a way to expand our idea, our way of working throughout all the elements, that component, our way of showing our project. So even the way you're doing 3D images is part of what you want to achieve in terms of a project or even the graphic where how you actually present a project as part of that. So I think the control for us means to give a unity idea of our concept, to have a very clear vision and to be constant in everything that happens around the project.
- [05:12]
Sam
It's bringing this big theme forward, right?
- [05:17]
Michele
Yes.
- [05:18]
Sam
But it's saying don't let any part of it show up or present itself unless it has us behind it. Who we are, how we think, how we dream, how we envision it.
- [05:29]
Michele
Yeah. I talk about honesty because I think it's very important. I mean, we try to be as we are. We don't sell something that we are not. So it happens many times that we say to a client, we are not the right firm for you. You know, we know what we can do and where we can be good at, and we know what we will never be so good at. So you better call somebody else in
- [05:56]
Sam
that case, you know, you bring up the client. Right. You bring up maybe not being the right fit for them. And I'm excited to get into that. Right. And talk more about how you figure out who you are and who they are. Then who makes that decision? Before we get there, though, Travis, when you think about what you've done the work that you've done both domestically and globally, where do you feel like the core lies as a lighting designer for you?
- [06:28]
Travis
I think for me, the, you know, the types, the scope, all these different projects that I've worked on over my career at Lighting Design alliance, the, you know, the interesting thing is that it evolves constantly and every. Every project, every client, every situation obviously is going to be different. But I think that, you know, in order to be successful as a lighting designer in our industry, we have to kind of reevaluate and almost redefine sometimes what our value is to a certain project, you know, even simultaneously. Project A, project B, how we determine how we're approaching the design aspect, communication as part of the project team. It's, you know, there's a lot of variability behind that and we have to be very cognizant about, you know, how we. How we view our own value, I guess, for these two hypothetical circumstances. So, you know, I think what it boils down to is always wanting to be a good partner.
- [07:31]
Sam
Yeah.
- [07:31]
Travis
As part of the project team, and communicating what our grand vision is, what our overall overarching design is.
- [07:40]
Sam
When you think about what you're going to put in front of someone for them to make that initial decision or maybe just have a conversation and then say no, like, what do you feel like? What's the real integrity behind your creative ip?
- [07:56]
Michele
It depends.
- [07:59]
Travis
You're going to get that.
- [08:00]
Michele
No, I'm just saying, really depends is a word. But I would say because as an Italian firm that works in Italy and abroad, for example, it's very different when we work in Italy or abroad. Also the respondent that what we are asking for is different. And so, you know, we try to change also our way of being perceived by, let's say, the clients or the public, let's say. And I'm quite sure that one of the reasons why we usually choose outside of Italy is because they see that we have an Italian approach in terms not just the way we are, but also in terms of design. I think if I will point out one special item that Italian culture has developed through the years is the value of a public space, the value of the way of people, how they communicate, how they integrate with each other. And this is something that very often they ask us, you know, you are Italian, you know, how to make a very live public area, how you make something that is really working and it's not just well designed, but nobody really wants to go there. How you want to create a building where people actually meet in different places. And, you know, you actually point out some areas where they actually can work in a different ways. Or even in residential building, you know, you have this feeling of what, you know, they call la bella vita. It's like enjoying life. And they think sometimes it's true, sometimes it's not, but we have to play with that, that we have the key to design spaces that allows you to enjoy life in public spaces, in residential, in office. It's part of a deal. In Italy, of course, it's different because you are like the others. It's not so different. Everybody's Italian up there, more or less. And so I think it's really about, as I said before, the process, the way we are working as a collective. So you don't have one face, you have different faces and you have people that is very passionate about what they're doing. And it's not just the service.
- [10:38]
Travis
You know, the value I think that we really kind of strive for is obviously based on the service side of the lighting industry. But, you know, it really to me comes down to trust between ourselves and these other, these other partners that we're working with. You know, lighting to us is we understand it, we know the process, we have this design vision. But we have to, I think, acknowledge that many people in the design industry may not have the same level of either technical expertise, just general knowledge about lighting. And so to us, I think the real value is helping to educate. That's not so much hand holding, I would say, but it's very much kind of putting ourselves in their shoes and trying to help guide through the design process and really be the ambassador of lighting for the project. And knowing that along the way there might need to be ve sacrifices, something, I think we can still protect the integrity of our design. And, you know, if we're, if we have that trust with the, with the owner, with the architect, you know, I think the ultimate success of the project really hinges on that.
- [11:51]
Sam
If I look at both of you, you work for him, you work for the world, right? And it's really. Yes, very, very generally, yeah, very generalistic statement, right. But there's this, there's this like, filtration of design, design intent and who creates it, who latches on to it, right. What drives you to look for that opportunity to work for the world?
- [12:21]
Michele
We believe not to be specialized because specialization creates a lot of, you know, a lot of reputation as we try to get as much fun as possible during the process. You know, if you do all over again the same project, it's very Hard to get fun, you know, to have fun out of it. So. And you learn less and less because if you're doing the same project, you become a specialist on that subject, but you're losing the opportunity to learn about something else. And so we try, always, we tried during the years to get as much as different kind of projects as possible. And it still is a driving force the fact that the next project is different from the one that we did before. Not just different because it looks different, but also because we have a different task, a different challenge, you know, a different subject. So if you're working for a student house, it's completely different from if you're working for hotel or for a elderly house. You know, it's, it's just a different mentality that you have to house in order to do the project. And I think what really drive us is that is really to understand how we can create quality out of different situation.
- [13:57]
Sam
What do you feel like is the core value of your firm and your thinking that connects all of them?
- [14:06]
Michele
I would say it's always been the human based design understanding about relationship. I mean, when we design an object, it's really about the relationship with that object. And if you design a square, it's really about the relationship between the people inside of a square and as again in the building as well. So it's really probably that part. So we always think about relationship, you know, how you're going to touch that chair or how you're going to leave that square, or how you're going to work in that environment. It's always a starting point.
- [14:43]
Sam
So if I pick on Travis, right. If you're exploring the world and looking for all these different opportunities, but driving home with human design and you look at your value that you're creating as a lighting designer of becoming a specialist and educating people and bringing them along the way. Can you rinse and repeat your value for someone who has also rinse and repeat but for, you know, is it rinse and repeat for you but not for him?
- [15:12]
Travis
Yeah, I wouldn't say it's rinse and repeat. You know, that's maybe a little too far. But you know, I think, you know, every project comes with its lessons learned, it's sets of experiences. And so I think that, you know, our, the other value behind the history of our company is we. You learn from every success, every mistake in design, every project's going to have both inevitably. Right. And so it's, you know, we're never, we're never recreating the same design Twice even say we have a restaurant chain we've worked and done 100 plus locations with. There's always going to be a set of circumstances where a unique design solution is necessary. And whether that's driven by the program, the architecture, the human needs of the space, there's always something that throws a curveball into the design.
- [16:06]
Sam
Right.
- [16:07]
Travis
And I think how we adapt, how we communicate that, you know, hey, there's, there's an issue on this project that we really need to hone in on and consider and come up with a collaborative solution to. And maybe it's a small deal, maybe it's a big deal, but I think, you know, we, we need to ensure, you know, for the integrity of the project that we are raising those flags as early as possible with, with our clients. So, you know, I think that's where the conversation of trust kind of comes back full circle is, you know, where we are trusted with the lighting design to bring up those red flags if they come up, when they come up, identify potential issues so that down the road in construction, these don't become, you know, million dollar issues. And when I see a project getting into construction, like I said, always successes and failures, there's things to be learned. But that's another really, I think core value behind our company is that when the project does reach construction, we really strive to make sure that we are there with the client, we are there with the architect, we're making sure that things are successful. And sometimes that means you have to own up to your mistakes and do whatever we possibly can to, you know, make, make a project successful at the end of the day for, for our client.
- [17:25]
Sam
So there's this dynamic, right? You're in sync. Once you're working together to deliver something. This is where all of this gets very interesting to me very fast. And that is where you're doing that. You're based out of Los Angeles, you're based out of Milan. You seem to be talking the same language pretty easily here, right? What's the give and take of culture around the world as it relates to asking for design?
- [17:54]
Michele
Travis is doing a very different job from, it's a different profession. And I was just thinking when you were talking that, I was talking about how much in house service we're doing around design, but we are not doing in house lighting design. We always work with other companies and probably because there is a lot of technical issues about that that we are not capable of managing. And you need this sensitivity and this, you know, technical aspects that is very important to give quality to that kind of design. But I would say that when I was talking about how we try to do different things, and if you think about that we are doing product design, interior design, architecture and urban design is not typical from a US approach, for example? Absolutely not. I mean, I work in London for a couple of years. I saw Anglo Saxon World and it's really about what you're doing. Architecture. Yes, but what kind of architecture? Office building or residential? And it's really trying to get as much as possible that niche of work that you are developing. As in Italy. If you think about when I graduate in architecture, you graduate in architecture and then you decide to be a product designer, an interior designer or an architect or an urban designer. But the base for five years was just the same. So you have a mentality that you know, you have already this approach, that project is just the same. It's just a way of seeing things. Then of course, a lot of Italian firms, they specialize in something. But I do believe that that was really part of our culture. You know, it's part of seeing the. The project as one thing. You know, there is an important Italian architect from the post war period called Rogers that used to say that the actors should design from spoon to the city. Okay, from spoon to the city. That means everything. Yes, because it's a question of mentality, it's not a question of technical expertise. Of course now you need a lot of technical expertise as well.
- [20:27]
Sam
But inter quality Italian design.
- [20:30]
Michele
Yes, you need to see things through a different possibility of scale. And when we work on architecture, to be able to work on interior design project and have that detail attitude that interior designer have then helps for us to design a building. So you can cross all this experience in your project throughout the fact that you already see things in a different way. So I'm really pro not being specialized. And I understand that Travis has to because he's doing a very specific job where you really need to have a great technical expertise. But as architects, I think it's very important to see different things and not being too much vocalizing one thing only.
- [21:24]
Sam
So in your world of not specializing, but being able to capture it all, what's your experience as you move from region or country? I don't even know how I might classify it, let's just say it from one culture to the other of having to adapt.
- [21:45]
Michele
I think, you know, being an architect is a cultural process. I think, you know, we do believe that when you do a project, you need to study a lot and to have a cultural vision of what you're doing, cultural means. I don't know if it's the right word in this case, but it's to have a big picture around your project. Even if you do a spoon, let's say. But if you do a small things, if you do a small building, you still work in a cultural environment. You're still working on a big picture. And you know, we work a lot in Milan, in our city, we study a lot our city. And I always think that if you learn how to study one city, then you are more easy to get to study another city, another culture, because you know the rules, you. You know what you have to pick up. But of course, sometimes we are too far away. That's why I was talking about. Sometimes we say we are not the right architects because we cannot give you the right project. You know, we need to have to be inside of this cultural cloud. Let's say, if it's outside of its cultural cloud, we cannot give any added value to the project. So it doesn't make any sense for us and doesn't make any sense for the client as well. So I think it's really, you know, sometimes you, you really find amazingly a close connection with very far away places, very far away culture, and sometimes you feel so far away that it's impossible to dialogue. So it really again, depends, but it really depends on what you're finding.
- [23:31]
Host/Announcer
Do you.
- [23:31]
Sam
I'm sure it depends, but always come on. But I mean the podcast will be named.
- [23:38]
Michele
It depends.
- [23:39]
Sam
100. How quickly can you identify if there's an opportunity for. For your client to see what you want to bring to it? Well, or do you let them tell
- [23:55]
Michele
you the client and the brief and what they are asking you is already a good starting point. You know, if they asking you to do things that you don't feel like moral way or because you don't have any interest in that. That's already a good point. But then of course it's a part of dialogue. It's part of understanding how much you can go out a little bit of comfort zone that the client wants to have. You know, it's really understanding how much you can enlarge the cloud. Let's say, you know, so you really have to work and sometimes you see that with dialog you can actually create a lot of area around the project. Sometimes you just see somebody that want a service. If I just want a service, we can do that. But. But it doesn't make any sense to call us from Italy and bring it to. I don't know, Saudi Arabia to do that, you can probably find somebody cheaper and closer to do that. So if they need a different vision, if they need a different approach, of course, in the boundaries of what they are asking us, then I think we are a good team to work with. If they just want, you know, something they already used to, we are probably not.
- [25:22]
Travis
I think that conversation is equally important to the lighting designer as well. I mean, so working on a project in Hawaii vs California vs Saudi Arabia or Dubai, you know, we've done projects in each location, but really having that early dialogue, as you said, that conversation, it helps us to get a really clear understanding of the minutiae of what might be expected from design criteria, just the overall vision of the project. So lighting design in the global scheme is a small piece of the building design pie, so to speak. And even if we're not directly involved at an early stage in a project, it's immensely beneficial for us to at least be engaged in those early conversations to help that mutual understanding, I think.
- [26:14]
Host/Announcer
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- [28:32]
Sam
Do you have to work differently for the first 30% depending on where you are in the world and what the project is. But then finally the process comes together and you do your thing and you're obviously you're unique and you're in your groove. Or is it just, is it a unique reinvention? Every process, all the way, all the
- [28:48]
Travis
time, we're always trying to meet and converge at some point in the design process.
- [28:53]
Sam
How quickly can you do that so that you can take them on the
- [28:55]
Travis
journey and ideally as soon as possible. Right? You know, as early as possible. It depends.
- [29:00]
Michele
I'm sure that about the change of order or so or different ideas of architects and light designer will always say, oh, come on. Yeah, so I understand what he's saying. And we usually agree with, I mean, as soon as you have a clearer vision that we all agree to, then it's easier, it makes more sense. And usually if you, I always ask a little bit more time on the beginning of a project because clients, sometimes they ask to do everything in a hurry, which is fine, but you can go in a hurry when you have a clear vision. And that clear vision, the strategy of the project needs sometimes a little bit more of time. Because when you go in that world, you get in that street, you're losing a lot of time. You ask the light designer to start working on that and then the fans say, you know what I don't want to do, I don't know, a five star hotel, I want to do a student housing. And he like, it doesn't make any sense. And you say, yeah, but from a business point of view it makes more sense. Yeah, but why we didn't investigate that in the beginning. So I always say to the client that it's not so decisive that it doesn't have a clear idea what he's doing. Let's take a couple of weeks and investigate all the things before starting. Then we can be as fast as possible. But it's very important that sometimes people, they get in a hurry when they don't have a clear vision and it's a mess. Usually it's the worst process you can actually have is really when you start working without understanding where you're actually going. So it's usually it's a mess.
- [30:52]
Travis
I'm curious. Yeah. When you don't have that clear initial vision, I guess I'm curious kind of what the process is engaged. Three different design option concepts. Five different. Do you try to work directly and just towards ones?
- [31:11]
Michele
We usually try to get as much as possible the whole process. We try to lead that preliminary phase in order to have all the information. We try to say, are you sure about this? Can we write it down? That is like this. And if they are in doubt, give more options. That's a possibility because maybe they didn't see exactly how. I don't know. That building doesn't work as a hotel, for example. But usually, especially with long clients that we have for a long time, they usually involve us in the preliminary phase. Even in a due diligence phase when they start. Start understanding about a building to buy or a field to develop. So it's usually we now they value our strategic vision that helps them to do a proper business plan.
- [32:13]
Travis
Okay.
- [32:15]
Michele
And you know, it's another service, but it's a good service because. Ben, help us, everybody. Light designers want to work in a more relaxed way.
- [32:26]
Travis
Yeah. And I always think we need to early on, kind of cast a wide net, so to speak. You know, it's. It's. I'd say somewhat rare, it's not unheard of, but it's, it's not common. We have a single design vision right from the start for the lighting alone. It's. It's often undefined or in flux, so to speak. And so I think if we're involved in the concept schematic, we can kind of cast that wide net of design ideas and then working with the architectural teams, that's then where we can reach that convergence point and come up with something cohesive.
- [33:08]
Sam
Let's move around the world for a second. Let's pick North America, South America, Europe, Africa, Asia.
- [33:20]
Travis
Every continent.
- [33:21]
Sam
Yeah.
- [33:22]
Travis
No, Australia. All right.
- [33:25]
Sam
What to you is different about each continent where you've worked?
- [33:29]
Michele
I actually work in US I work in Africa. I work in Europe and Middle east, in China. So, yes, I have.
- [33:41]
Sam
So you do a good job, but
- [33:45]
Michele
it's completely different. You know, we were talking, I was talking before about how we have different kind of projects. And so we work with UNESCO in Africa for some coffee hub, so small pro bono project that we are doing all over the south of Africa, from Ethiopia, Zimbabwe, Kenya and everything. And of course you have a certain kind of relationship, but it's completely different from us. And it's fun, I think, you know, to see the world through Projects, it tells a lot about the culture that you are working with is really, you know, it's not being a tourist. It's really something that you understand the culture in a much faster way. And I don't want to go into stereotypes, you know, because they are not. I mean, sometimes it's interesting because you, you have to go against your stereotypes. So you see that in Africa you have a fantastic local architect, they have a fantastic organization. You know, it's like, wow, I didn't expect that, but it, it happens. So I think it's, it's really nice if you go in different places with an open mind and without stereotypes, without prefabricated ideas, you know, but you go there and try to understand if you
- [35:21]
Sam
arrive without a prefabricated idea, there's the opportunity to follow their lead. Right. But at the same time, I guess it's your job to help them figure out what they don't know, right?
- [35:33]
Michele
Yeah, but also sometimes I say, how can I help you understand? If I am here and I flew from Italy to come here, must be for a reason. Otherwise you can call somebody, but it's 100 meters from you. I mean, doesn't make any sense. You know, I think, you know, we talk about sustainability and then everybody's flying around the world for. For no reason. So I think if I have to take a plane and go somewhere else, I want to understand why I can give something more or different. Otherwise it doesn't make any sense.
- [36:11]
Sam
And what do they tell you?
- [36:12]
Michele
Well, as I say, sometimes they, you know, they want to, you know, in Africa is very. It's a, it's a fantastic experience because you give them a different way of working. So it's not just that you're doing a project, but you raise a new generation of architects in our mind. So we are working with a lot of architects from the early 30s that they are our local. So in some way you have also this great feeling that you really help them to understand a different way of working, a more contemporary way of working. And so they are full of energy, full of ideas, full of, you know, desire to learn. So that's amazing. If you work in America, I think it's really about, you know, giving a kind of quality touch that they usually ask us. So they have this idea of Italian touch that usually is translated into a very good detailing way of designing interiors. Usually. We just did interior design project in US in China, funny enough, they asked us to do a project in Wuhan for a renovation of existing building of the old city. City center, the old, let's say historical. It's not that old, but they call it historical city center. So that means that if they, you know, they wanted to do new buildings, they didn't have to come to us. But if they, they probably recognize in us the quality of understanding old buildings and try to. And how we managed to change completely the, the function, the architecture, using the existing building. So they came to us just for that kind of sensibility, let's say cultural sensibility, to understand how you manage with old buildings. Not necessarily historical listed building, but, you know, buildings maybe from the 50s, the 60s. You know, we always say that that kind of buildings are even more exciting because nobody really loves them. They always see as a bad building inside of the cities. And we always say, oh, let's try to get, to get from a love building to something that everybody loves. So somebody that, you know, changed completely the face of that building. So really, again, depends.
- [39:00]
Sam
But you know, that was the longest run up yet. I love it. No, it's, I mean, this is great. It's this big picture arena of, you know, emotion or deliverable. For you, Travis, it's very different, right? It's, it's. I'm not going to answer the question. Sorry. No, for you it's different. But like, let's go around the world with you now.
- [39:25]
Travis
I think for me, the, you know, the design process itself, I would say, is very similar for me domestically versus on international projects that I work on. You know, maybe sometimes the international work, maybe they squeeze in a little extra design phase here or there or you know, I think domestically maybe sometimes the pacing of the project might be a little bit more accelerated, you know, aggressive schedules, more aggressive budgets. Certainly I think that, you know, when we're designing a project in the Middle east versus in California, you know, there's the obvious difference of codes and standards. That's just bare minimum things we need to understand. But I think getting a good understanding of the building construction methods is critical for us. Not only just the materials, but the procedures, how they go about assembling wall and ceilings. Where do the lighting products come from? I don't even want to get into procurement, so to speak, but understanding that it's a very different process for how we even identify what lighting products are available for a project in Macau versus in the US it's. That part of it is extremely different. And I think when we're talking about maintaining our, the integrity of our design start to finish, that's one of the biggest, biggest challenges. And you know, especially on as a, as a US based designer, on international work, making sure that we're involved, start to finish and seeing a project through construction because otherwise we have, you know, little to zero control over the outcome. And you know, at a bare minimum, you know, reviewing submittals and at least knowing what products they are putting on the job site, I think is kind of the baseline. But you know, in a perfect world, we're out there on the job site, we're with the construction teams, we're making sure that our light fixtures are installed to meet the original design intent. So there's some significant differences, but the process is always the same.
- [41:38]
Sam
It's interesting how you bring up the construction methods.
- [41:40]
Travis
Yes, Very, very big differences departing from
- [41:45]
Sam
everything I've asked you. But now I just have to ask right. Is there a right way to build buildings or you know, why are, why are there so many different construction methods?
- [41:57]
Michele
Well, again, it's part of a culture. You know, if you go in different countries, you see that they have different way of building, which is again part of a, of understanding the culture. You know, because you cannot propose something that is part of your culture or way of building and just because you are on the other side of the world. So you have to understand and sometimes it's very difficult. When we work in US for example, as for lighting, we did a couple of shops and lighting is a nightmare for example, in the US because they have a lot of regulation that we didn't have. We don't, we still don't have. So it was very difficult to achieve the requested, you know, of municipality. So you have to understand, you have to, you know, to, to study again. It's part of that. But why? I don't know. I mean it's part of a, it's, it's a long process of a cultural growing of every, of every country or every continent. But you know, but again, if you go to North Italy and South Italy is completely different. So you know, it's like everybody's built their own building culture, I think.
- [43:16]
Travis
And a lot is availability, cost.
- [43:18]
Michele
Yes.
- [43:19]
Travis
Material and labor both.
- [43:21]
Michele
Yeah, as a matter of fact, probably in the last 20 years is. It starts to be more, you know, international by way of. We are building is still different, but still is getting more and more similar. If you think about 100 years ago, it was, you know, different from one place in Europe to the one 100 kilometers away.
- [43:41]
Travis
So it's, and I think those types of projects as well. It's, it's critical for us to have a successful project to have a local design team, whether that's the architect, oftentimes it's an engineer that we're working closely with that does have that local expertise of how are they feeding the. The wiring to the light fixtures, how is the ceiling get built? So I think having a local partner that has the finer details nailed down, you know, we can help guide the way. But, you know, ultimately that collaboration, I think between different disciplines when working with international.
- [44:22]
Michele
Yeah, absolutely. You have to one very good local architect. Otherwise it's possible.
- [44:29]
Sam
I want to take a moment to
- [44:30]
Host/Announcer
recognize a team that understands what every designer already knows. Light isn't a fixture, it's the soul of a space. For almost a century, Targeti has shaped how people experience architecture using precision optics, performance, and that unmistakable sense of Italian design to elevate every moment a space offers. Because light isn't just seen, it's felt. It drives emotion, guides the eye, and transforms intention into atmosphere. For Tarjeti, light isn't simply the medium. It's the identity, it's the craft, the legacy and the commitment behind every solution they create. Experience it for yourself. Visit tarjetiusa.com as you look at the
- [45:15]
Sam
breadth of your work around the world and you think about these clients and their different cultures, is there anything across all of it that is definitively common or uncommon when it comes to the value of lighting as an entity in space?
- [45:37]
Travis
I would say there is a global commonality that 99.9% of the people experience light without even consciously acknowledging it. And I think that, to me is. What's really fascinating is there's this. There's the obvious visual component to it. You know, you can walk into a space and you see good lighting, you see this great space, and you might not attribute it to lighting, even though that light is playing a critical role in how you're experiencing this. This environment. So there's the obvious, the visual component, but then the health and well being, I think, is, to me is fascinating when you get into daylighting, circadian rhythms and everything. So I think how humans interact with light on a daily basis without even acknowledging it to me is fascinating and I think helps drive some really interesting design decisions.
- [46:30]
Sam
Do you think there's anything that's uncommon?
- [46:32]
Travis
There's a difference between perhaps expectation on what quality lighting might be?
- [46:38]
Host/Announcer
Yeah.
- [46:38]
Travis
On one location to another. Yeah. You know, certain locations may put more emphasis into dimming control or. Or color.
- [46:47]
Sam
Yeah.
- [46:49]
Travis
Color of white versus color color and the importance of those, you know, kind of simple elements is. Can be weighed very heavily. One One way or the other, depending on. Depending on the.
- [46:59]
Sam
It can depend.
- [47:00]
Travis
Yeah, yeah, always. Yeah.
- [47:03]
Michele
Well, you know, you need to be. It's again, a cultural and educational thing. You know, there is a lot of people that doesn't have a clue and doesn't feel. And I don't know how they do it, but they don't really feel any difference between a good lighting or a bad lighting, which is, for me, amazing. But yeah, this is what it is. We always try to give, you know, I'm not just talking about, you know, artificial light, but if you think about natural light is really something that affects you as a people, as a. As a man or a woman, affects the way you treat the others, affects the way you are. And so that's really something that shows you how much important is the light. You know, if you living in a place where there is a certain kind of light, you probably have a different culture for a place where you have a different kind of light. I mean, we were talking about different culture. I think light is really shaping cultures. I mean, the way you are living in a, you know, in a Mediterranean full of sun places, or you living in the north part of Europe, well, you have a completely different attitude to life, which is not bad or good. It's just saying that is really shaping the way you are. And of course, the importance of artificial light is that you can actually help that, you know, if you're working or living in a place where you don't have a luck of having a fantastic, beautiful natural lighting, you can actually create something that, you know, balance that lack of natural lighting. And I think this is amazing. It's part of a technical knowledge that now really can help a lot of situation where you. You have not bad luck of having a beautiful sunset or a beautiful natural light. And so his work is really crucial, I think, for the quality of the project. Not just because it can give spectacular views or, you know, highlight some items, but really for the quality of the people that leaves the building and leaves the spaces. I think it's really. It's a great responsibility, I believe.
- [49:38]
Sam
What do you enjoy giving to a lighting specialist so that they can be armed to do what they need to do?
- [49:46]
Michele
Well, of course, I think I agree. I mean, light designer, we try to get light design involved in the first concept because we give a lot of credit to that part of a project. And again, I was just before talking about how important is the quality in terms of how the people will live in the space. So of course you have a lot of tricks to create something more amazing in your building. But at the end of the day, I think it's really part of feeling comfortable in the space. You know, that's the thing that, for me, is more important. And sometimes you enter a space that maybe is beautifully designed and you feel that something doesn't work, and usually it's a light. I mean, for me, it happens like that. You know, I will. I mean, we are in a fair here right now, and if I don't go outside in 10 minutes, I will not feeling so good because I don't see very natural light. And that's something that everybody has to feel inside. That's why I think it's part of education. We probably should need to teach our children how to feel the light, how to see the light, because it's something that gives quality to our life. It's something that gives a difference between a good place and another, and not a good place. You know, and people, sometimes they just pass through spaces without not even noticing that.
- [51:27]
Travis
Yeah.
- [51:28]
Sam
Travis, what's. What's the one thing that architects can give you as a lighting designer to save you the sake of having to ask the first 100 questions?
- [51:40]
Travis
Good question. I think.
- [51:43]
Sam
Don't say it depends.
- [51:45]
Travis
It doesn't depend. It's the same thing every. No, I mean, you know, first and foremost, I think we always appreciate being part of that early conversation. Like, number one, that. That helps align everyone on the project team towards the same.
- [51:59]
Sam
Yeah.
- [52:00]
Travis
The same end goal. So being engaged as part of the. The collaborative effort, you know, bouncing ideas off of one another, saying, you know, what do you guys think about this, this part of the project, this part of the design? What do we think we should do there? You know, it certainly helps having, you know, talented people that you're working with that can drive those design decisions from a very high level. You know, having a unique architectural environment makes our job as a lighting designer infinitely more fun and enjoyable. So, yeah, it's. It's. I think we're all striving to the same end goal. Right. We want the success of the project, the success for ourselves, and I think just being genuine who we are as designers and respecting the other members of the design team in the same thread.
- [52:57]
Sam
Do you guys have any questions for each other?
- [53:05]
Travis
I feel like I have a lot. But do you have a favorite singular project in your. The span of your career that just really stands out from a. I guess, any unique characteristics about it that you might be able to comment on?
- [53:20]
Michele
You mean one of our projects?
- [53:23]
Travis
Yes. Yeah. That you Personally worked on.
- [53:25]
Michele
I don't. It's very difficult to answer this question, but how will I serve this question Thinking about lighting? Because there is one project where lighting is very important, which is one of our first renovation projects we did 12 years ago where they have this dull for us. Interesting. But everybody hates this building before and we renovate completely this building. And lighting is very important because it's very. Is part of a facade, but in a very subtle way because we use some metal grid with light behind and it really looks like textile from. From the street you see like a curtain, but it's not. And I've always thought that it was. I mean, it's one of my favorite projects by. By far. But it's. It's one really interesting the way we work with light in there. You know, it's. And it was really part of. Of working with light designer from the first concert. First we have this idea of having some light boxes, but it was dull and very boring, I would say, and very common. And then we. We changed that into something that is much more subtle, less. How can I say, showing off and much more subtle and more, you know. And after 12 years old, you still see it as a beautiful building and not. You don't get. You don't get bored of that. You know, if we probably use light box, we will say, oh my God, again, you know, it's. So it was very important to achieve the design, you know, the architecture of a building throughout the work of. Of the light as well.
- [55:17]
Sam
Okay, thanks for sharing. Do you have any questions for Travis?
- [55:22]
Michele
Yeah, I have to. I mean, you say that you're working on urban design.
- [55:28]
Travis
Yes.
- [55:29]
Michele
Yeah. And I think it's. It's one of the projects that now I like more to do is. Is really that kind of project. And I think light usually is not very sexy because they have too much light when they have security problems and maybe not enough light when they don't have that. But it's always difficult for me to find a good balance between too much light and too little. It's like very difficult.
- [56:09]
Travis
Yeah.
- [56:10]
Michele
Is it for you? As. Again, I mean, it's much difficult because if you think about, you know, an office building or a house, more or less, you have more an idea of also of the locks that you need to have. You have more idea of average light that you need to have in a public area, especially if it's a big area, then you have to decide where to put the light. Or you have this kind of stadium effect where you have a cold Light all over, which is not very good to have a social exchange, let's say.
- [56:48]
Travis
Yeah, and to me, yeah, that is a good question because I think that's a really interesting balance point that we're always trying to achieve on our projects. It's a fine line between too much, too little, what is the right amount, but also where is that light going, when is it on? I think are really important considerations we have. And some of my favorite projects are exterior urban environments, parks, master planning. And to me, I have a. My personal design philosophy is less is more. I appreciate darkness in especially me too.
- [57:28]
Michele
But you know, sometimes in public areas, basically. No, not too. This is too dark.
- [57:33]
Travis
When a space is over lit, especially on an exterior environment, it. There's a very strong argument and data that suggests it's. It's more unsafe. Right. If you do not have the proper contrast ratios, the light coming from the proper angles. If, if your eyes are not adapted to that environment as they should, you're going to have issues, safety issues. But also, you know, aesthetically it's, it's not good lighting design. And so I think that's a, it's a balance. It's always somewhat of a moving target depending on the project's, you know, location and what the code requirements are. For us, especially in the United States, that's. It's tough to achieve one project that next because there's all these different restrictions codes on required light levels for certain applications and understanding those on these certain certain projects. It's. It's kind of difficult to consistently, you know, as you said, repeater, rinse and repeat the same design solutions for that reason. And, and yeah, I think that, that just going back to the, you know, this, this idea of darkness, it's to me exteriors, it's, it's just, it's critical I think ultimately makes a much more successful project if you're paying really close attention. I think it's much more difficult those contrast ratio.
- [59:01]
Michele
Yes, it's much more difficult. But of course it's, you know, I think it must be much more satisf. Satisfactory. No, I say yeah. For, for, for a light designer because it's really. Can change the, the way you live in a park or a public area.
- [59:17]
Travis
Yeah. And it's tough when a code says we need 100 lux on a pool deck.
- [59:23]
Michele
Yeah.
- [59:23]
Travis
On an exterior. And we like.
- [59:26]
Michele
Do you.
- [59:27]
Sam
Well, it may sound silly, but as you sit here and discuss this, all I can think about is the key to urban design or you know, areas that would otherwise literally be Completely dark. Is actually being able to design so you can see through the light. Not only what is lit.
- [59:46]
Travis
Yeah. See beyond.
- [59:47]
Sam
Yeah, yeah. Which doesn't make any sense. Like. What do you mean? What do you mean be able to see the darkness compared to the light? It's. Well, actually you want to. You want to be lit where you need to be, but you also want to be able to see what's right next to it.
- [60:01]
Travis
It.
- [60:01]
Michele
Yes.
- [60:02]
Sam
Otherwise we have this.
- [60:05]
Host/Announcer
I mean, it's.
- [60:06]
Travis
It's like.
- [60:07]
Sam
Yeah.
- [60:07]
Travis
And that really needs a multi layered lighting strategy. Right. So if you're, you know, pin spotting one portion of the project with light, everything else around it is dark. You're. It's not going to ever work. There has to be multiple layers to it. Yeah, absolutely.
- [60:24]
Sam
Like from a bird's eye view, you literally have to be able to make. Map out a fall off.
- [60:29]
Travis
Yeah.
- [60:30]
Sam
It's this. There's. Is there a rule or like a. Around contrast ratios, like how much our eyes can adapt to see beyond what we're currently. If we're sitting in a room and it's X amount of brightness, how bright does the space next to it have to be able to be in order for us to transition into it without being completely blind or not developed?
- [60:56]
Travis
Can't say. It depends, can I?
- [60:59]
Sam
All right, fair enough. No, no, it's.
- [61:01]
Travis
No, there's a lot of variability.
- [61:03]
Sam
Yeah. The point is though. Yeah, it's lighting the function and the area around the function.
- [61:09]
Travis
Yeah.
- [61:11]
Sam
Sorry. I'm learning too.
- [61:12]
Travis
I love it.
- [61:12]
Michele
And what's your most difficult project you have done? The most difficult one that you have done till now?
- [61:19]
Travis
The most difficult.
- [61:20]
Sam
It's the one that's not done.
- [61:21]
Travis
It's always the one that's not done. That's when it gets to construction. No, we've. So I've. I've worked on why large projects that have spanned almost a decade. So projects that I've started in 2017, 2018, that are still ongoing, you know, several large projects that maybe span five, six years. So I think on one hand, the duration of projects like that is fascinating to me. Just seeing the evolution of technology, of standards, how we think about design over that time makes me reevaluate constantly throughout the design process on those, which I think is really interesting. I enjoy those projects. The duration of it is certainly a challenge. And cycling through different members of different project teams while you're remaining the constant is difficult. One that stands out in particular was a commercial project I was working on in, in Honolulu that it was kind of right at the dawn of when. I shouldn't say the dawn, but when LEDs in the US were becoming commercially viable.
- [62:28]
Host/Announcer
Yeah.
- [62:29]
Travis
For projects of that scale. And so when we first began that project, I like, I like to say I'm old enough that I did projects with metal halide and CFLs and all these fun other lamps that we no longer use in the US but then halfway through that design, we did a complete LED conversion, entirely new specs, new design. And to me that was just, I mean, it was such a, an interesting time in the lighting industry to have this project, you know, the Spanish four or five years. And right in the middle is kind of when this big transition to LED specifications really occurred. So it was huge learning curve, you know, tons of lessons learned from it. But it was, yeah, kind of a fascinating process to me.
- [63:19]
Michele
Yeah. But timing, I think. I agree timing is, is a big challenge in our work because we, we have, we do have projects that start. Started maybe seven, eight years ago and may probably be finished in two or three years. And you know, thinking about a 12 years period, it's really difficult because, you know, you, you would like to change the project in the middle of that. But.
- [63:45]
Travis
Yeah. Do you sometimes to redesign you say
- [63:49]
Michele
no, okay, it's fine like this. But you know, sometimes, you know, when we do interior design project is fantastic because you design it and in six months you have an architecture or urban design, it takes so long and sometimes you, you missing the freshness of, of
- [64:08]
Travis
the smaller projects and sometimes you need a fresh set of eyes on projects that span that long. You, you're staying staring at the same design, the same plans and specs for years and so you can get kind of blinded by that. So I think having fresh sets of eyes and really a high degree of patience on those projects is what you need. Yeah. Yes.
- [64:30]
Sam
There's ones we love, there's ones we don't love, and there's ones that never end.
- [64:35]
Travis
They're all great projects.
- [64:37]
Michele
Yes.
- [64:38]
Sam
There's so many more questions here as there's a natural dialogue, I think of speaking the same language while not standing in your corner, but sticking to what you love most, which is your area of design and expertise. And I really appreciate you both sharing that with each other and with me.
- [64:56]
Travis
Absolutely.
- [64:57]
Sam
I think we might have to do it again and we'll find another cool place in the world to talk about it.
- [65:04]
Travis
Deal.
- [65:05]
Sam
Sound like. Thank you.
- [65:06]
Michele
You have to come to Milan.
- [65:07]
Sam
Yes, I know. I will be there. Thank you so much.
- [65:11]
Michele
You're welcome.
- [65:12]
Travis
Thank you, Sam. Thank you.
- [65:13]
Michele
Thank you so much.
- [65:13]
Host/Announcer
That's great.