Paul (3:16)

Empathy. It's people. That's why we design. We design for people. And if it's not empathic, then we're doing a bad job. I think it's understanding people is why I got into lighting design, because I love people and I like connecting people in space and their environment and watching that relationship blossom. So that's what design is.

Interviewer (3:39)

When you think about someone having to emotionally connect with a space, is it intuitive to the people that are in it that that's what's happening?

Paul (3:47)

No, it shouldn't be. You know, if you do it right, then nobody should be aware. It just works. And, you know, if. If it works, then it's lighting and architecture and space planning and acoustics and all the other consultants doing a great job. You know, it's the unsung hero, I guess, just.

Interviewer (4:05)

I mean, you just want it to work. You want it to be something that works out. Where does your mind go when you have to, quote, create the design intent to start storytelling?

Paul (4:17)

I think that where my mind goes is to really try and figure out who the end users are going to be, how do we want to curate their experience? And I think if we can figure that out early on and build a story around it, then it's much easier throughout the life of the project to be able to deliver the lighting design. It's not about light to begin with. It's not about that. You know, in the same way, really, if you work with a starchitect, it's not about the building, it's about the experience and the journey that people are having within that building first. And form follows function, right? It's an old saying, but that's where you start. I think that figuring out what's the function of the space, what's the purpose of the space, right? What is that experience? And then start to figure out, you know, if we figured out why we're lighting it, then to start to figure out, you know, with what are we lighting, how are we lighting it, and how are we going to deliver it? Simon Sinek, Stop your eye. Great book, right? Yeah, one of my favorites. Yeah, I think it's actually.

Interviewer (5:21)

It is my favorite.

Paul (5:22)

It's, it's, it's. It's a fabulous book. And it's such a kind of simple principle just why are we doing it? Simple as that. And I think you got to ask those questions to begin with. It's interesting. I see a lot of lighting Designers, they just, you know, you give them a project and they immediately start thinking about what they're lighting in the space and try. I think it's important, especially with youngsters coming into the industry, to try and get them to kind of row back a little bit and understand that it's not about what you're lighting, it is why. So start thinking at a much more kind of higher existential level. Who's it for? How are we, how are we controlling that? The view, the experience. And I think if we do that well, then we'll deliver a fantastic project. And the nice thing about that is just because you've done the macro level work on the project, you've got much more authenticity within that project. And as you get into the more difficult stages where you value engineering and redesigning and so forth, it's much easier to argue the case for your design because there's authenticity to it. Whereas if you just frivolously design for the sake of design, it's easy just to cut things.

Interviewer (6:39)

Put yourself in the room at that first meeting. How do you do it? Where do you start?

Paul (6:45)

Oh, man, you ask a lot of questions. You really do.

Interviewer (6:49)

I have more, I promise.

Paul (6:51)

But I mean, sitting in the room, it's about interrogating. It's interrogating the client's brief. And it's interesting because often the client doesn't have a proper brief. Clients only know what they know. So I think it's our job to really figure out what they don't know and educate first. Do they know about neurodiversity? Do they know about orientation? What do they know about sustainability and dark skies? Do they really need, you know, another circadian style, you know, dynamic lighting system? Do they? Who knows? The question you've got to really ask a lot of questions and figure out. And then once you've asked that around the brief, spend time with the architect or the interior designer or the landscape designer and figure out why are they designing it that way? You know, why is it a big pointy glass thing and not a square, solid thing? Let's really figure out why. It's. It's developing the way it is. And then when we have that background and that knowledge, then to start to figure out how we can layer lighting on top or within? I think so. It's, it's the real work, the hard work is done at the very beginning of the project to build an understanding of, of the, the genesis, I guess, of the project. And, and again, the users that are going to be using that space I

Interviewer (8:14)

love that word interrogate. Right? You interrogate the project. The brief. When you take Paul's hat off of design for the sake of design and put Paul's hat on of design needs to be a business, is there a mindset shift?

Paul (8:33)

It's the most stressful thing about running your own practice, I have to be honest, because there is. There has to be a mindset shift. You know, I am first and foremost a designer. You know, I started my own company because I wanted to be doing more design, you know, and it's really hard because you want to design and look at that, you know, the attention to detail and obsess about everything as a designer, and you want to spend more and more time developing the design and so forth. The business side of things, you've got a fee, there's a program, there's a schedule that we have to meet. There are other consultants that we are obligated to deliver information to. You got to pay the staff, keep the lights on. So we've got to be able to deliver projects at a pace. And in this region, the Middle east projects, you the program. The project is really compacted. You know, we're delivering things significantly quicker than certainly in Europe and the US So it is. It is really difficult to balance the two and to lead a design team, you know, team of very talented designers and get them to understand the commercial aspects of it. You know, we are designers, not artists. And I think there is a difference, unfortunately. So I think.

Interviewer (9:53)

What's that difference?

Paul (9:54)

Well, I think that's interesting. I mean, that is so for me, an artist, I think there's probably more flexibility around brief, and you do get to spend a lot longer developing. I think as design, there's a tighter. There is a tighter brief, I think, as a design, and I think that it is develop delivering to significantly more parameters. We've got to somehow find a way of balancing the ability to design as creatively as possible with as much attention to detail as possible. But do it under pressure and try and make money out of it.

Interviewer (10:29)

No, not try.

Paul (10:30)

Well, yeah, I did make money. You got to make money on it. Yeah, you have.

Interviewer (10:35)

Otherwise the next person's right there.

Paul (10:37)

Totally right. And that is really difficult. Now, going back to what I said earlier about wanting to spend the time at the beginning of the job, you know, obsessing about why we're doing it, who's it for, how are they using it, how they're using the space. If we can spend time doing that, then great. The problem is your fee has got to be competitive. And we're probably up against people that haven't even bothered to include that side of things. They're going straight into design. Usually being given a render by the interior designer or the architect. And just, you know, designing straight onto that time is money. So if I'm putting more time and effort in at the beginning of a project, then it can be our fee is going to be more expensive and that means we might not win the job. So that's. It's really difficult to be able to, you know, include all the bells and whistles of service and creativity for, you know, just 9.95. You know, that's, that's the, that's the challenge. I think it's trying to deliver really high quality on probably too low a fee.

Interviewer (11:39)

I'm gonna let you know the credibility of what you're currently operating with. I think it's 150 people across three different regions.

Paul (11:49)

Four regions. I think nine studios we're in. Yeah, we have a. I mean it's eight manned, well personed studios. It's London, Lisbon, Dubai, Bangkok, Vietnam, Singapore, Bangalore, Pune. I think that's the. All of them. And then we have a post box in Miami.

Interviewer (12:11)

So that's enough to vet, genuinely vet, you know, your ability to figure this out, to turn it into something that has an ability to start with just you and grow. And I think what's curious to me is you can have a portfolio, you can have images, but you know, what does it really take to get somebody to buy it the way you want to design it, not the way they want you to design it.

Paul (12:44)

Yeah, it's really difficult. It is one of the hardest things. I think it's about trying to sell yourself, sell the idea, sell the service, and then, you know, sell the bigger idea that the concept.

Interviewer (12:59)

So why do you think it's so challenging?

Paul (13:02)

Because people don't understand what lighting design necessarily. I mean, everybody knows I was lighting design. You ask my friends, I tell them, they tell me I change light bulbs for a living. You know, interior designers think it's all about choosing chandeliers. And, you know, architects love invisible light fixtures. But I think the kind of common theme with all is that they don't really understand. You know, light is an essence. It is, it's invisible, right? It's. It's the interplay, the wonderful interplay of light on the surface. So I think that's where people struggle. They don't really understand what we do. It's not as much fun as it used to be because I think when I first started, there was a lot more play with light. These days, I think there are more constraints around energy consumption, around longevity and sustainability, and quite rightly so. So we can't necessarily be as frivolous as we used to be with lights, perhaps. But I think it is a real. It's a challenge to get people to really understand what is, what the benefits of it are. And I think a good sales technique is important. You know, it's why podcasts, marketing, PR are a really, really important, because it gets the message out there. And I think we spoke before and I'd say it on camera, I don't think the representative bodies of the industry do enough to promote the lighting design industry. And I think it's now incumbent upon us as individual practices to really try and not just promote ourselves, but promote the industry within which we're working. I think it's important because I don't think enough is done out there to educate. And I think if anything, it's getting harder because you're getting more and more engineering firms thinking they can do lighting design. You're getting more architects having a go at it. There are more and more people that don't have the necessary experience or skill set just getting into lighting design. And I think good lighting design can be done by anybody. It doesn't just have to be done by a lighting designer. But I think it's getting tougher and it's driving fees down and competition is up. The flip side to that, of course, is it keeps us on our toes. It keeps us moving and evolving, and that's important.

Interviewer (15:17)

There's two words that come to mind for me, and it's knock knock. Right. What do most people say after that?

Paul (15:24)

Who's there? Yeah.

Interviewer (15:26)

How do we turn lighting into knock knock?

Paul (15:28)

Yeah.

Interviewer (15:29)

Not lighting designer. Who? Lighting designer.

Paul (15:31)

You? Yes.

Interviewer (15:32)

Right. That's something that I feel like people really, really just want to, like, latch onto and. And if that happened, so many things would get better.

Paul (15:41)

Yeah.

Interviewer (15:42)

What have you seen, you know, in your career here with these crazy mega projects and, you know, all the flashing glitz and glamour to where it is today and then comparing that to the rest of the country, how. How the approach and appreciation for design as a. A hired hand in a business is.

Paul (16:03)

Yeah.

Interviewer (16:04)

Is there versus a means to an end or.

Paul (16:07)

Yeah.

Interviewer (16:08)

Should I even say a necessary evil?

Paul (16:10)

It', look, it's evolved a lot and it's interesting to me. I love looking back at the history of lighting design and I think it's fair to say there are people that were in Dubai plowing a lone furrow many years before we ever came here. Right. And I think they did a fantastic job at building an industry for us. So I've always really respected kind of the history of it, but it is changing. It is really changing. I think what I love about the Middle east is, you know, every project needs a lighting designer. You know, clients understand that they need a specialist to look at it. I don't think they necessarily understand what the specialist is bringing sometimes, but I think they, they understand that. So there should be a lighting consultant. So that's great in that sense, it's sort of an easy sell because they need. There's going to be a tender for lighting, but fees are going down. Fees are, you know, getting, you know, lower and lower and nobody, none of my staff are knocking on my door asking for a pay cut. So it's getting tighter and tougher and more competitive. I think that there are people coming into the industry from various other regions as well, which makes it quite a mixed bag of quality and fee level as well. So I think that's challenging. I think budgets for equipment is getting tougher as well. I feel like I'm painting a bit of a bleak picture here, really. It's just hard. It doesn't make it impossible. It means you just got to be really good at what you're doing and understand the nuances of this industry. And I think you've got to deliver great design. You got to deliver it on tight budgets and you're going to deliver it on very tight programs. But it's also really fun as a market. This region, we're working on projects you just wouldn't work on anywhere else in the world. And it's a privilege to work on those projects. And, and on that level, you do get to play, you do get to try new things. You've got some clients here that will be quite open minded as well to new concepts. It's an industry where energy consumption, sustainability has been less of an issue or less of a priority over the last. Historically at least. It's definitely growing now and maturing, which is great. I don't think it's quite caught up to Europe or the US yet, but it's getting there. And I think as a market, it's way ahead of anybody when it comes to things like dark skies. That's great. You know, I think, you know, that pushes us hard. So I think it's a really interesting market here. And I think, you know, as a. If I were a young lighting designer, this is where I'd want to be right now. I think, you know, there are projects here that, you know, for your CV and your portfolio. You're not going to get that anywhere else.

Interviewer (19:02)

You know, you mentioned this pressure on the fee. We talked a little bit earlier about showing up to the client and saying, I want to build it and design it my way. I'm going to use the analogy of a toolbox real quick. Everybody probably at one point in time seen a plastic toolbox. You open it up, there's a little piece on the top. You pull that out and set it down. And then all the big tools are on the bottom. Right? Right. And some people maybe throw a bunch of stuff in. Everybody, you know, grabs one thing on the top, one thing on the bottom. Maybe other people put some foam in there and organize it. Or maybe, you know, there's no tools in the toolbox. I guess my point is you can put anything in a toolbox and you can organize it any way you want. What you're trying to sell them is your toolbox, the way it's organized. But the first thing that happens is they open it up and take out the tools. They don't think you need to do your job.

Paul (20:02)

Yep. This happens all the time.

Interviewer (20:04)

Right. Advocating for that is something you mentioned earlier.

Paul (20:12)

Yeah.

Interviewer (20:13)

I want to jump off that cliff for a second. When you're really good at what you do, what kind of an opportunity does that give you?

Paul (20:23)

But when I first started my practice, I read a book called Sales on a Beer Mat, and it's a bit of a Salsy Spiely quick, you know, quick read. But the one takeaway I remember from it was that ultimately, you've got to solve someone's problem if you want to be a good salesperson. It's not about. It's the whole kind of selling a pen thing. Right. You know, some. With this pen. And the way to do it is to ask them to sign something. They haven't got a pen. Well, there you go. You've got a problem. Right now. I'm selling you this. So understanding what the client's problem is is the way to really sell it, I think, and the way to sell those tools that you've got. And sometimes you don't need every tool in the box. Right. Sometimes you don't need to spend loads of time at the beginning of the project figuring out why, because it's a short, sharp project. So I think understanding what the requirement of the project is important. It's key. It's more than important. Right. It's everything. You've got to really figure out why. You know, again, why is the client asking for a lighting designer? What is it they. What's their aspiration that they really want? Right. Because if all they want is, is a BMW, there's no point selling them a Porsche. Right. All they need is that. But maybe they actually might want a bit of upsell. So it's just figuring that out. And I think not everyone can do that. Let's be honest. I think it takes a good salesperson to be able to figure it out. I'm not the best at that by a long way, but just trying to figure it out and then sometimes having to push back. You know, you get the RFP comes through and sometimes you're looking and think this, what you're asking is not very disconnected, I guess, from the scope that you're asking for. You know, the aspiration and the scope are two different things. Being brave and being able to push back. I'll be honest, when I first started out, I didn't push back enough. You know, you don't, because you're a bit naive. You know, I'm 15 years in now, so, you know, being a. A lighting design owner, light and studio owner, and I think I've learned a lot and I think I've got braver at pushing back. Got braver at pushing back at fees. Perhaps got a little less angry when I lose projects. I don't know, I hate losing anything. But. But you know, those tools are important. But if you just take this all, you know, the same tools every time to every project you're possibly over providing you've got to. You've got to know your client. That's. That, I guess, is the point. It's not. Don't just know the project, know the client, know what they're really asking for. Have great relationships. It's about. It's a people thing. Again, it goes all the way back to. To understand people.

Interviewer (22:56)

So the book on business is chapter one. Start with the people.

Paul (23:01)

Yeah. On every level.

Interviewer (23:03)

Yeah.

Paul (23:04)

You know, start with your clients understanding your clients. Start with understanding your staff. Start with understanding who you're designing for. It's all people. I love people. It fascinates me. It's all. Light is really simple. It just connects people in space. That's it. Right. So if you put a little table light from IKEA in the corner as lighting design. Right. It's just connecting people in space. And when you do it really well, nobody knows that you've done it. But a Space comes to life. I still get goosebumps to this day when I walk onto a project and we turn all the lights off and. And we just slowly start bringing up each circuit and you're breathing life into it, you know, like a little kid. I'm still there, excited. I love it because it's. It's why we do what we do. You bring a space to life and people just engage and that excites me.

Interviewer (24:02)

So chapter one's the people. I feel like chapter two is how to write the manuals. Chapter three is organizing the manuals with the right tools. Chapter four is putting it all in the toolbox. Or maybe I should say finding the toolbox that fits all the tools.

Paul (24:23)

Yeah.

Interviewer (24:24)

And then chapter six is mine.

Paul (24:27)

Six, y'. All. Yep, six.

Interviewer (24:29)

Chapter six is sort your toolbox before you do anything.

Paul (24:34)

Yeah.

Interviewer (24:34)

And that's that. Why for you.

Paul (24:37)

Yeah, I agree. You've still got to find a way of quantifying it. Or if you, if you can find a way of quantifying it, then, then you've done very well. Because we do live in a tick box world where people want to be able to say, well, are you going to bring this value to it? You know, great anecdote for you. We work with a retail brand. We did a big research topic with them on foundation color matching. So for ladies, or mostly ladies, matching of foundation onto skin tone. We did a pilot store with them and their sales slight where their profitability went up 22%. That was based on sales and reduced returns because it's a perishable item. Usually if you go home and you get foundation color matched, what happens is if it's wrong, you will throw it away or you return it to the store and they have to throw it away. You can't resell it if it's the wrong color. So to reduce that and increase sales is fantastic. Now I can sit in a presentation now with other retailers and say, well, actually we improve the lighting and we increase sales by 22%. So that's a really great quantifiable fact. It's not often with lighting you can have those quantifiable fact. You know, we work with another retail store, sportswear store, we re let their store and sales went up 12%. You know, so it's another great fact. It's when you can quantify it. If you can say to a big corporation, well, you know what, if you relight your space, your sick days are going to be reduced by X amount or productivity is going to be increased by X amount, then that's great. You can quantify things. But it's really difficult because there isn't any, there isn't really enough research or data out there or at least people willing to share that research and data. So there is this creative essence, the why and the rest of it. Yes, you've absolutely got to go in there. But if you can just throw in a few facts as well, then, then that's, that's great because there's gravitas to what you are, you're, you're selling,

Interviewer (26:48)

you're, you're just like nipping at this dying question I have right now. And it's, you know, can you, can you value or propose a fee on a design project that has absolutely nothing to do with how much time it's going to take people to do it? Because there is a different way to value it would.

Paul (27:11)

Yeah, I mean I've sort of heard lots of maybe old wives tales on this one. I'm not sure. But the theory goes, I, you know, even if it's for a few days work, I should be able to charge you half a million dollars because it's, you're not paying for two days work. You're paying for 25 years of my career and you know, thousands of years of my collective team's lives and careers. You're paying for all these other projects that we've worked on, this knowledge and that knowledge. So yeah, in theory, yes, but I say it's an old wives tale because inevitably the client will come back and say yeah, but it's, it's two days. So I would love to be able to, to do that, you know, and maybe there's a balance, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, there's a bit of. When we value a project, we think it's going to take this amount of time. I think we probably do massively as an industry and you know, personally undervalue the experience that we have and the knowledge that we have. And we are probably, you know, guilty, very guilty of that. I think so, yeah. You make a really valid point. But I, I think, do I think there's an opportunity to do it. Yeah. Does it happen in reality? Probably not.

Interviewer (28:30)

When I think about it, the probably not becomes the problem.

Paul (28:38)

Yeah, it does, but it's the business, isn't it? You know, let's, so let's you, you know, so.

Interviewer (28:44)

So much can be sold on human emotion. Yeah, that's what's interesting to me. Like design can be sold as a program or as an emotional response to something. It's not that people don't want to say, yeah, bring your toolbox with your 17 tools, with all your master ninjas on how to use them. We don't have the money.

Paul (29:07)

No. But I think what does happen a lot now is you bring in, you know, the big name, amazing, starchitect, star interior designer. Often what will happen now is it'll take you might do the concept phase, you're lucky, you might do the schematic design phase and at that point it goes off to somebody, you know, another design team that perhaps aren't as expensive, aren't as creative because it's all about, you know, it's more about the detailed design delivery. But then I think that misses the point as well because the creativity is in how you finesse and that attention to detail.

Interviewer (29:45)

Before we keep going, I want to spotlight someone who shares the same obsession with the design detail that this podcast is built on. Kelvix doesn't just move fast, they move with purpose, helping the design world turn ambitious ideas into seamless, buildable realities. The Kelvix team works at the pace of your project, delivering tailored solutions backed by the people who know how quality, timing and precision elevate the final outcome. In every spec, in every collaboration, Kalvix proves lighting is more than illumination. Lighting protects design intent, sharpens the details that matter, and brings spaces to life with clarity and ease. See what's coming next. From breakthrough products to standout projects@kelvix.com or on their social channels, I also want to take a moment to share another company that I respect and enjoy learning from @ledflex. Linear light is designed to do more than illuminate. It's engineered to shape how spaces are experienced. Rooted in British manufacturing, LED Flex works alongside lighting designers, interior designers and architects worldwide, supporting projects where detail, precision and execution matter. They're not just a manufacturer, they're a technical partner providing bespoke solutions, rapid prototyping, commissioning and long term support from early concept through final handover. If light is integral to your architecture, choose a partner who stays with the project and learn more@ledflexgroup.com there's also one more company that I want to introduce you to because they consistently show up where it matters. I know and you know, every designer knows the success of a space depends on actually what shows up on site. And, and that's where diode LED comes in. Lighting performance isn't an add on, it's the foundation of every successful linear lighting project. Designers need solutions that carry ideas smoothly from specification through installation. And Diode LED is built to support that reality. With industry leading inventory, reliable delivery and responsive support, Diode LED keeps pace with real project timelines, not theoretical ones, real solutions for real projects, no matter the scale. Learn more about what's happening in Reno, Nevada at diodeled.com Pretty neat, huh? All right, let's get back to the conversation.

Paul (32:08)

You know, it's interesting. I think I always have a feeling that clients always end up with a project they deserve. If it's a great client that buys into their design team, that's really part of it, that listens to their consultants, you know, makes decisions on, you know, with a balanced kind of view on things, they'll end up with a fantastic project. You know, I've had some projects in the past. We worked with a very large accountancy firm years ago and they were just wonderful because they, they knew there were accountants, they knew they were risk adverse. So they, they sat in every meeting and they challenged things and they listened and then they made great decisions and then they got an award winning scheme. I've worked with clients who divide and conquer their design team, they don't listen, they dictate. And their projects, you know, are, are good but never fantastic. And that's that I think is the difference. You know, it's, it's clients get what they deserve and you can take them on that journey if, if they're willing to go on it. And sometimes they don't want to, they don't want to spend the money, they just want to tick a few boxes. Does it meet whatever criteria? And that's it. Are we going to get a certificate? Yeah. And that, that can be, as a designer can be challenging, you know, and my team will often say, well we don't want to work on those projects. And then with my other hat going back to what you said earlier on, I'm like hell yeah, I want to work on that. Because it's short shot we're going to charge a fee, it's going to be no hassle and it's probably going to pay for the projects that we've spent time obsessing over. So you reality of it is you need a balance I think on the books of projects which are less creative but usually pay quite well. And the ones that are really creative that probably don't pay as well. That's a sad fact, right? The more creative and inspirational they are, usually the less money they make.

Interviewer (34:03)

Yeah. I'm broken thinking about it actually.

Paul (34:05)

Maybe I'm just becoming cynical.

Interviewer (34:06)

No, I don't think you're cynical. I mean, every business has risk associated with it. There's always unknowns that are going to come out of something. Even if you think you've got everything predicted, maybe AI will change all of that. I don't know.

Paul (34:25)

Well, let me just tell you something that blew my mind the other day, right? I've been firmly in the AI is going to help, you know, change what we do. We don't have to do the boring schedules anymore. AI can help, I mean, in that camp, but it's never going to take away the creative and creative thinking. When we employ people coming into the, into the business before we offer them the job, we get them to do a test and we give them a little project and we say, look, it's going to take you four or five hours, but we want you to design something for us. We do that because we found over the years it's really easy to make a portfolio look great, especially when you work in a team. When you work in a team and you can never figure out in a portfolio, did you really do that detail or did you get somebody else to do it for you? Right? So figuring out who does what. So it's a really good way of flushing out actually people's skill set, getting, getting them to do this test. So we do that. This.

Interviewer (35:24)

Did you pack your toolbox or did your mom pack? So made lunch today.

Paul (35:30)

So we did this test and I had one the other day that came back and it blew my mind because it was very obviously AI just because you can kind of tell if it's chat GPT, it usually kind of presents things in a certain way, a certain sort of phrasing or bullet pointing and the tone of the paragraph. So you can kind of tell this is done by AI, this guy. The whole thing was AI, the whole document. And it blew my mind because it was actually pretty good. And I had to have another interview with him because I had to figure out, are you just really good at prompting or do you also understand what this document, what's within this document? So it frightens me to say, you know what? It is gonna really challenge the creativity and the way that we document and present and. And for the first time, it's got me worried.

Interviewer (36:32)

When you look at where you are today and the market and the climate with the studios and the people you have, what challenges you and design most right now

Paul (36:47)

there are different. Such a big question. I mean, the biggest challenge is, as I said, already delivering great work on time, on budget, on Fee. The biggest challenges I have are often people HR keeping people happy. I'm a leader that believes in empowering people to what I want. I love my team having creative freedom. I think it's really important. I think, you know, I remember as a designer, that's what I wanted. So, you know, I want to sort of lead as I would want to be treated. But it's always a challenge keeping everybody happy and inspired. And of course, you know, the bigger you get, the harder that is because the more detached you become. I think, you know, I have a great leadership team. They are, you know, fantastic. And we have great team leaders and teams and so forth. So the way that we're structured is, is important. The challenge for me, I'm a lighting designer. You know, I never set out to build a company really. You know, my first business plan was like, I just want to pay my mortgage, you know, and do great design and have fun doing it. And that's kind of really what I still want to do. So there's also sometimes coming to terms with, you know, that I'm having to step back in order to allow other people to, to have their opportunity to shine. And that's, that's part and parcel of it. You know, it is a pleasure seeing people grow. We know we've been around long enough now to have had people come through the organization and leave and start their own practices. I'm super proud of that. Proud dad, genuinely. You know, yes, there's more competition, keeps us on our toes, but it's, it's. I'm proud of being part of other people's lives and, and helping them grow to become leaders in their own right. I think that's fantastic. You know, if anything, that's, that's the long term aim, I guess, of legacy, isn't it? I think to be able to affect other people. So I think there was a multitude of challenges, you know, of what's going on.

Interviewer (39:03)

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Paul (39:55)

I mean, look, our knowledge of light and lighting and the impact of light and lighting on people and lives is growing and it grows every day, right? And I think staying abreast of that and, you know, I think we're starting to see right now just what tip of the iceberg, just what kind of impact light has on neurodiversity, for example, which is huge. And I think it's great. And it's a real hot topic, our organization. And I think that there are so many other elements that are just constantly moving around sustainability, around. Around energy consumption, around ecology and the ecological impact. I think trying to stay abreast of all of those. And of course, what people want to do all the time is quantify all of that. So can then we take a box that says this is neurodiverse friendly, right? Can we take a box that says it, it's X sustainable. Sustainable. I think the problem with that is it then starts to become designed by numbers. And for me, that. That's something I really hate. You know, my background is theater, right? I love, I love theater, I love storytelling, I love narrative. And I remember my old theater tutor, lighting tutor, saying to me, if you ever bring a light meter onto a stage, I'm going to ask you to leave. Because it was not about the quantity of light. It's. Does it feel right, you sit at the front, the middle of the back of the auditorium and you're kind of way up. Does it look right? Doesn't it go up a bit, Down a bit? That's how you learn in theater. It's all about feeling the light. Saddens me a little bit that I think as an architectural lighting industry, we're kind of coming away from that because there are so many boxes to tick. So I think the challenge is to make sure we can keep playing with light, keep being creative and innovative with light as a medium, and not just let it get distilled down into something that's quantifiable. Designed by numbers, I think, is a real challenge. And I do think that sometimes we can be a bit guilty of sort of banging the drum so much for all of these really important elements, you know, really important issues within the lighting industry that we can sort of disappear up our own backsides a little bit at times. And I think sometimes we do remember to get back to the real reason we're doing lighting design, which is making places incredible for people. That's what it's about. You know, it goes all the way back to what I said at the beginning, which is people are the purpose, you know, And I think I. I want to connect people in space. So let's not forget that. Let's not get so hung up on. On it being, you know, the smallest watts per meter squared possible, that we lose track of the fact that someone's actually got to use this space, you know. You know, I've said to clients a few times, we can give you the lowest energy scheme possible, we can just turn off all the lights. But it's not going to be a very nice place to be. So how about we start to introduce a bit more light and talk about an energy budget and so forth and start to design around that. So I think that's the. For me, at a design level, that's the biggest challenge, making sure we continue to design creatively and innovatively. And play. Play with light is the most amazing medium to work with. I mean, genuinely, I still feel like a kid when I'm playing with it. It's. It's beautiful and, and seductive and, you know, it's just. It's fabulous and a privilege to work with it. We've just got to remember that sometimes when we're heads down under the cosh at 2:00am in the morning, you know, it's, it's. Remember,

Interviewer (43:37)

I'm going to repeat something you just said. It's people is the purpose.

Paul (43:41)

Yeah.

Interviewer (43:42)

Not your own ideas, not your ego.

Paul (43:47)

Yeah.

Interviewer (43:47)

Not 30 years of experience you have. It's the people you're doing this for. It really. I feel like it embodies everything you've shared today. You know, it all comes back to the why. Why we do this, why we care about it, why we stand on the cross, why we stand up and say, lighting design should be a profession. Gosh darn it, it should be. Why you should pay for it, why it's worth it.

Paul (44:16)

It's the best profession in the world. We work. My team are tired of me saying this, but we work at this amazing crossroads of creativity, technology, sociology, psychology, ecology. It's just, you know, I love the fact I could never be an architect because. Because I like that we work on such a tapestry of projects, right? But we're pulling all of these threads, pulling all of these threads together and delivering for people. And there are designs that, on a personal level, sometimes I'm like, I don't really like it, but I know it's right for the scheme, right. It's right for the People that are going to use this. And, you know, I think great lighting design can be really simple because of that. That's why, I think, because you're designing for people. Sometimes we've got to stop over designing. Sometimes we've got to just. Just keep it simple. Design beautiful space. If it's a bare light bulb in a space, because that's right, then so be it.

Interviewer (45:11)

Thank you.

Paul (45:11)

You're welcome.

Interviewer (45:12)

I really appreciate it. It's. It's genuinely heartfelt to be able to sit with you and know that this emotion, this purpose, this why is behind something that is so big, so grand and very dominant in. In the world that you work in. Yeah, it's. It's a testament to what hard work can do. It's a testament to when you're driven by something, not just a spreadsheet. Right. Or not just a business plan. You know, we didn't talk about what any of that looks like in your world, but you've mentioned it here and there 20 times. It's very much part of what you do, because it has to be. Yeah, but that's not the driver. It's just a catalyst to it.

Paul (46:06)

Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, it has to be. And finding a balance. Yeah. And you got to be passionate. Right. If you're not passionate about what you do, don't do it. You know, I. I would say that to anybody. Don't be in it for the money. You can't be. We don't earn enough. But you got to be absolutely love what you do, and that's what's kind of. I know we're kind of wrapping up, but I think that's what's a privilege, you know, 99.99999 of the people in this industry love it, you know, and. And that's great because it means there is a passion. I think we've just got to keep doing great work, but we've got to find a way of selling our industry and professionalizing it more. That's a. You know, maybe that's something for a whole other pod another time. But, you know, I know Chip we mentioned before, but Chip Israel, when he did the pod with you, you know, was great. You know, what he said really resonated with myself because, you know, it is a business, and we've got to make money, and we've got to be more professional in the way that we do things, and we've got to understand it. And of course, at college, at university, nobody takes you aside and says, this is how you write a business plan. This is how you price something. This is. They don't teach you how to run a business, they just teach you how to design, if you're lucky. So I think as an industry, we got to get better at it. You know, things like this. You know, I hope that some of your listenership, viewership, you know, is from outside of the lighting industry. You know, I really hope that if it just gets out to a few architects, a few developers, a few interior designers, then we've done our job. Because it's spreading the word, you know, so I get a little, maybe a little evangelical about it. It's not about promoting myself or the business, it's about promoting, Promoting our industry so that people understand the value that we bring and the value that a great designer brings, of which there are many.

Interviewer (48:14)

This last word that, you know, comes to my mind, it was, you said, you know, people are the purpose. And the purpose to me is it's the sensory system. Right. It looks a certain way, the building. Right. It smells a certain way. You go inside, same thing happens again. But how does it feel? And that feeling is so indicatively. Not understood. I feel like, you know, in the human brain and our emotions and, oh my God. Actually no one's the same, so it's always different. Yet you have to create this program. And it's almost like the perfect lighting design will be, you know, you're born, you take a test, there's a chip in your brain. As you walk through the building, the lighting automatically manipulates.

Paul (49:11)

I mean, it is,

Interviewer (49:14)

it is lighting. I mean, holy cow, am I biased? But lighting is just wickedly complicated to get. Right.

Paul (49:28)

Oh, I disagree.

Interviewer (49:30)

You do?

Paul (49:31)

I think it's layers. I think it's. It can be so simple. It can be an IKEA table light in the corner. Right. If it's right.

Interviewer (49:39)

But knowing that.

Paul (49:41)

Well, yeah, I guess that's the thing. It's the knowledge of that, isn't it? And the years of experience that. Yeah, that comes with that. But it doesn't have to be complicated. It can be really simple.

Interviewer (49:52)

The solution itself.

Paul (49:53)

Yeah.

Interviewer (49:53)

Arriving there is a different story.

Paul (49:55)

Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, for that, that I do agree with. But I don't think that's necessarily just the domain of the independent lighting designer. I think there's some great manufacturers out there that do it. It's great agents, suppliers and so forth. And there are a few good architects that understand light and lighting, and I think we should celebrate that. But I think we have to get that message out there in better ways than we have as an industry, and I don't know what the answer is to it. I said this to you earlier on. I wish I did. Maybe one day I'll find it, I'm not sure. But getting that messaging out there so people appreciate it and we become a more professional industry. We're so fractured both geographically, but I think in the UK we have four, maybe five different bodies that represent light and lighting, you know, so that tells you it's not right. It's got to be. The AIA or reba, for example, are great ambassadors for architects. We need something along those lines for the lighting industry to help sell light, help professionalize it. Yeah, it's a challenge.

Interviewer (51:09)

I have many more questions and I'll save them for the next one.

Paul (51:13)

I look forward to it.

Interviewer (51:14)

Thank you so much, Paul.

Paul (51:15)

You're very welcome. Thank you.

Interviewer (51:16)

Talk to you soon.