Podcast
Macro N Cheese
Hosted by Steven D Grumbine · EN
A podcast that critically examines the working-class struggle through the lens of MMT or Modern Monetary Theory. Host Steve Grumbine, founder of Real Progressives, provides incisive political commentary and showcases grassroots activism. Join us for a robust, unfiltered exploration of economic issues that impact the working class, as we challenge the status quo and prioritize collective well-being over profit. This is comfort food for the mind, fueling our fight for justice and equity!
31episodes
Episodes
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Ep 379 - The Real Cost of War with L. Randall Wray
1w ago00:54:58Tap to summarize** This Tuesday, May 12, come to Macro ‘n Chill, our online gathering where we listen to and discuss this episode. Bring your questions and insights. 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/rn_HAqgaSRGdj8W2UX9aKw Did you think we had abandoned MMT? Well, after a few weeks of tackling some rather prickly topics, we’re back to strictly non-controversial macroeconomics. Heh heh. Just kidding. Don’t get too comfortable.Our old friend Randy Wray is back, bringing his somewhat optimistic belief that a sound reality-based agenda might possibly succeed in the upcoming Congressional elections. But more on that later. First, he and Steve need to dissect Trump’s latest imperialist venture against Iran and expose the bipartisan lie that there are just enough of your tax dollars to pay for war; when it comes to affording social programs, the cupboard is bare.Claims of scarcity are pure ideology. MMT has taught us that the federal government faces no dollar constraints. The real cost of war is measured in diverted labor, wasted resources, destroyed infrastructure, and the steady cannibalization of society’s productive capacity. Not to mention human lives, disabled veterans, and a chain reaction leading to starvation in the Global South.Back to Randy’s guarded optimism, which Steve does not share. Rather than smooth over their differences, they lean into them.Randy believes an anti-neoliberal program could win congressional seats. It would require candidates to break out of the fiscal austerity frame. Steve counters by referring to the Gilens and Page study – showing policy has near-zero correlation with popular will – and a class-lens analysis of manufactured consent. He sees a theatrical oligarchy, not a reformable political system. Since both parties serve capital, there is no electoral path. No possibility of reallocating resources from bombers to bread.The conversation represents an unresolved, essential tension inside the MMT-Marxist synthesis: is monetary sovereignty a tool for working-class liberation blocked only by bad ideas, or is the entire political theater designed to ensure those ideas are never acted upon?L. Randall Wray is a Senior Scholar and Professor of Economics at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College, and Emeritus Professor at University of Missouri-Kansas City. He is one of the developers of Modern Money Theory and his most recent book on the topic is Understanding Modern Money Theory: Money and Credit in Capitalist Economies (Elgar, 2025).Find his work at https://www.levyinstitute.org/people/lrandall-wray/
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Ep 378 - Revisiting the Stalin Eras Part 2: Context Not Caricature with Jeremy of Proles Pod
2w ago01:04:25Tap to summarize** Macro ‘n Chill is our weekly online gathering where we listen to the podcast episode and talk about it among friends. This Tuesday, Jeremy of Proles Pod will be with us to answer questions. May 5 at 8pm ET/5pm PT Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/gCOXxGttQryRnQNq-A3NbAThis is Part 2 of Steve’s interview with Jeremy, co-host of Proles Pod, talking about their exhaustive series on the Stalin Eras. It's a nuanced, de-stigmatized discussion about Joseph Stalin and the political reality of the Soviet Union. They begin by dismantling Western misconceptions of dictatorship to explain the actual Leninist methodology of democratic centralism, contrasting it with Western parliamentary systems.Rather than asking whether Joseph Stalin was good or evil, the conversation reframes the question entirely. It situates the Soviet project within the pressures of counter-revolution, imperial encirclement, and internal struggle, while investigating how decisions were actually made inside a socialist state. Jeremy calls out indefensible behavior and debunks long-standing myths. The result is a dialectical examination of power, democracy, and historical development.Proles Pod is an explicitly anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist podcast run by four ADHD-addled individuals. Although the foundation of Proles was built on the topic of history, more recently they have branched out into theory, politics, and culture. You can find them anywhere fine podcasts are distributed.Join their Patreon https://www.patreon.com/c/ProlesPod/postsCheck out a teaser for their series, The Stalin Eras: https://www.instagram.com/reels/DP81SiTjQry/
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Ep 377 - Revisiting the Stalin Eras Part 1: Understanding Democratic Centralism with Jeremy of ProlesPod
3w ago00:55:55Tap to summarize** Come to Macro ‘n Chill, our online community gathering, where we listen to and discuss the current episode. This week, Jeremy of Proles Pod will be joining us. If you have questions for him, bring them! Tuesday, April 28th, at 8pm ET/5pm PT. Register here: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/G7ijDSVmTcKeDc82AAs0XQLast year, Proles Pod completed a multi-part series on The Stalin Eras. Now Jeremy, one of the co-hosts, joins Steve for a conversation about it, resulting in a two-part dialectical excavation of Joseph Stalin and the Soviet Project. The purpose of this exploration is neither to sanctify nor condemn, but to strip away bourgeois mythologies and ground the discussion in material conditions and collective processes.In Part One, Jeremy and Steve look at democratic centralism, where rigorous debate is followed by unified action, then contrast it with the false choice offered by US electoral politics. They draw on Rosa Luxemburg, Julius Nyerere, and materialist analysis of US history (slavery, settler colonialism, Jim Crow as inspiration for Nazi laws), and agree that both Democrats and Republicans serve the same capitalist-oligarchic permanent state.Proles Pod is an explicitly anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist podcast run by four ADHD-addled individuals. Although the foundation of Proles was built on the topic of history, more recently they have branched out into theory, politics, and culture. You can find them anywhere fine podcasts are distributed.Join their Patreon https://www.patreon.com/c/ProlesPod/postsCheck out a teaser for The Stalin Eras https://www.instagram.com/reels/DP81SiTjQry/
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Ep 376 - Modern Monetary Theory & the Question of Democracy with Jim Byrne
4w ago01:02:25Tap to summarize** Questions about MMT? Thoughts about the episode? Come to our online gathering, Macro ‘n Chill. Tuesday, April 21, 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/RkspaP0RSNajdc69bqUmkAJim Byrne of MMT101 is back for a conversation that moves beyond the technical mechanics of Modern Monetary Theory to ask the tough questions. While affirming MMT’s core insight that a currency-issuing government doesn’t face financial constraint, only real resource limits, they argue that this knowledge is politically neutered by the structures of capitalism.Jim lays out a clear, accessible primer on how money actually works and breaks down the scarcity myth. But the real question isn’t can governments act, it’s who they serve when they do.Looking at the failure of bourgeois democracy, they talk about cultural hegemony and neoliberal ideology as well as class struggle vs. gradualism. The discussion touches on Scotland as a colony of Westminster and the limits of referendums under an imperial state structure.Ultimately, this is a dialogue that pushes beyond MMT’s insights and asks whether those tools can mean anything without a rupture in the underlying political and economic order.Jim Byrne has developed an MMT foundation course aimed at beginners and intermediate learners as well as people who already know about economics but are curious about Modern Monetary Theory.Follow his work and the MMT101 podcast at mmt101.substack.com@MMT101DotORG on X
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Ep 375 - (R)evolutionary Struggle with Steve Grumbine
Apr 1101:00:39Tap to summarize** This week’s Macro ‘n Chill might shake us up. Some of us, at least. Come discuss the episode with the community. Tues, April 14, 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/PIf2VnjBS-mwX-Bd4BwWYQIn a solo episode, Steve sets out to describe and explain some of the shifts in direction for Real Progressives and the podcast, mirroring his own changing perspective. He reflects on a decade or more of championing Modern Monetary Theory, while grappling with a dawning realization. Despite MMT’s crystal clear insights into sovereign currency with the potential for popular federal programs and public investment, the political system itself is a scam.He describes a journey of discovery (yeah, we know that sounds corny) peeling away the layers to explain the Gilens and Page study and global events. Gaza, US foreign policy, austerity, racism, empire, ramping up of brutal law enforcement within the US... each question leads to another. Weekly guests for Macro N Cheese help provide answers. Significantly, they contribute to the building of an analysis. Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.Accepting that the US is not a functioning democracy but an oligarchy serving capital, Steve critiques electoralism as a false promise and diversion. He calls for building parallel institutions and class consciousness over 'vote harder' strategies. Real Progressives remains rooted in MMT while integrating revolutionary theory, resistance, and an unsentimental understanding of capitalism.Steve Grumbine is founder and CEO of Real Progressives and host of Macro N Cheese podcast. Find his work at realprogressives.org and realprogressives.substack.com@sdgrumbine on X
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Ep 374 - Escape From Capitalism with Clara Mattei
Apr 400:59:42Tap to summarizeJoin our community on Tuesday evening as we listen to and discuss this episode. April 7th at 8pm ET/5pm PT. Use this link to register: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/nkkVRy2JQbW2Eh4VDtcNHQClara Mattei and her first book, The Capital Order, were hugely important to Real Progressives as we began to expand our focus from Modern Monetary Theory and investigate the political economy of the capitalist system.Now she joins Steve to talk about her new book, Escape from Capitalism. They discuss how capitalism maintains itself through market dependence, exploitation, and austerity, and why escaping it requires building alternative institutions rather than relying on elections or reforms within the capitalist state.Steve and Clara are largely aligned in their critique of the system, but there are some disagreements. They debate aspects of MMT, including how interest rates, state spending, and monetary sovereignty function across different contexts. Their differences open up a deeper discussion about the limits of reform, the state's role, and what meaningful change would require.There is a reason elections cannot deliver emancipation. The capitalist state is structurally designed to insulate elites from popular control. Clara describes her practical organizing work with FREE (Forum for Real Economic Emancipation) in Tulsa, building horizontal assemblies, participatory budgeting campaigns, community land trusts, and mutual aid.Steve touches on the concept of de-commodifying basic needs (housing, healthcare, food), to break market dependence. But then, capitalism would be unworkable.Clara E. Mattei is Professor of Economics at The University of Tulsa and the Founding President of FREE: Forum for Real Economic Emancipation. She was previously associate professor at The New School for Social Research Economics Department and has been a fellow of the Institute for Advanced Studies, Princeton. Her research contributes to the analysis and history of capitalism, exploring the critical relation between economic ideas and technocratic policy making.Clara is author of The Capital Order: How Economists Invented Austerity and Paved the Way to Fascism (University of Chicago Press, 2022), and the recently published Escape from Capitalism (Allen Lane, Penguin Press, and Simon & Schuster, January 2026), which will soon be translated into multiple languages, including French, German, and Italian. Learn more @ freefreeforum.org, where she hosts the weekly FREE podcast.@claraemattei on X
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Ep 373 - Is There A Path To Fiat Socialism? with Carlos García Hernández
Mar 2800:58:37Tap to summarizeCarlos García Hernández, author of Fiat Socialism: Achieving the Goals of Socialism Through Modern Monetary Theory, joins Steve to revisit their discussion of topics covered in his earlier visits to the podcast.Their dialogue wrestles with a deceptively simple question: if we already have the monetary capacity to guarantee jobs, housing, and public goods, why does capitalism still dominate? Through a sharp exchange, Steve and Carlos explore whether Modern Monetary Theory can be a pathway to socialism or whether deeper structural barriers rooted in class power and imperial dominance stand in the way.While there’s broad agreement on the failures of neoliberal capitalism and the need to subordinate economic power to political control, tensions emerge around strategy and theory. Carlos leans toward a vision of “fiat socialism” centered on access to goods and services and the transformative potential of monetary sovereignty, while Steve pushes harder on the limits of education alone, emphasizing class struggle, ideology, and the near-impossibility of reform within existing institutions.The result is less a blueprint and more an investigation that forces us to confront not just what’s possible, but why it isn’t happening.Carlos García Hernández is the founder and director of Lola Books, a publishing house that has introduced MMT to Spanish and German readers. He is the author of Fiat Socialism: Achieving the Goals of Socialism Through Modern Monetary Theory.@Carlos_G_H_ on X
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Ep 372 - Crisis of Hegemony & the Vassalization of Europe with Thomas Fazi
Mar 2101:06:27Tap to summarize** Tuesday evening, March 24, we’ll be listening to and discussing this episode in our online gathering, Macro ‘n Chill. Register here: https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/DeGM2oAyRt2O-Xsj1nc4IQThomas Fazi joins Steve to dissect the geopolitical and ideological structures that have rendered Europe strategically subordinate to the United States. Thomas argues that NATO’s true purpose, from its inception, was not to defend Europe but to ensure its vassalization by keeping "the Americans in, the Russians out, and the Germans down." He contends that the war in Ukraine was a deliberately provoked conflict designed by US planners to sever Europe’s economic and energy ties with Russia, forcing the EU into deeper dependency on American energy and military infrastructure.The conversation goes into the weaponization of media narratives and the management of dissent through censorship and “acceptable” politics, connecting the cultural Cold War to today’s crisis of hegemony. Ukraine, Greenland, and Europe’s energy self-sabotage aren’t anomalies, they’re features of an imperial system that requires subordination abroad and confusion at home.Thomas Fazi is a “journalist/writer/translator/socialist.” who lives in Italy. He is the co-director of Standing Army (2010), an award-winning feature-length documentary on US military bases featuring Gore Vidal and Noam Chomsky; and the author of The Battle for Europe: How an Elite Hijacked a Continent – and How We Can Take It Back (2014) and Reclaiming the State: A Progressive Vision of Sovereignty for a Post-Neoliberal World (co-authored with Bill Mitchell, 2017). His articles have appeared in numerous online and printed publications.Find his work on Substack: thomasfazi.com@battleforeurope on X
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Ep 371 - You Can't Vote Away Colonialism with Fadhel Kaboub
Mar 1401:06:22Tap to summarize** Join our community-building online gathering where we listen to the episode together and discuss it in a relaxed, supportive atmosphere. Tuesday, March 17, at 8pm ET/5pm PT. https://us06web.zoom.us/meeting/register/o3miFIPmSAC2d46Vh14iBAOne of our favorite guests is back to talk about the central problem facing much of the Global South. It is not simply bad policy or weak leadership, but the persistence of colonial economic structures. He explains that many countries, especially in Africa, remain trapped in roles designed by empire: exporters of cheap raw materials, importers of finished goods, and sites for low-value production. Political independence did not end these structures, and debt, IMF intervention, and external pressure have only deepened the trap."Colonialism and its economic structures were not designed for development, they were not designed for democracy, they were not designed for justice, they were not designed to produce a just transition or human rights or any of these things. If anything, colonialism and its economic structures were hierarchical, abusive, violent, extractive."Fadhel was one of the economists we originally turned to for our education in MMT. In this conversation with Steve he makes the case that MMT is not a theory of everything. Issues of race, class, and colonialism require their own lenses. Whether the issue is climate change, migration, development, or reparations, the entry point has to be the lived material conditions. MMT becomes crucial when the question turns to how to mobilize resources, avoid debt traps, and finance transformation without inflationary collapse.Dr. Fadhel Kaboub is a Tunisian American economist. He is an Associate Professor of Economics at Denison University and president of the Global Institute for Sustainable Prosperity. He’s the author of Global South Perspectives on Substack. In 2025, Dr. Kaboub was recognized by the New Africa Magazine in the top 100 most influential Africans under the Thinkers and Opinion Shapers category. He currently serves a two-year term on the United Nations High Level Advisory Board on Economic and Social Affairs at UN DESA. Find his work at globalsouthperspectives.substack.com@FadhelKaboub on X
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Ep 370 - Empire & Exodus with Erald Kolasi
Mar 700:58:17Tap to summarizeErald Kolasi is back to attack the bourgeois narrative on immigration, which reduces it to a series of individual choices. He and Steve dig into the material roots of migration, showing how empire, land theft, war, labor exploitation, and capitalist crisis have shaped global migration flows for centuries.They ground the discussion in Wallerstein's world-systems theory, defining an empire not by its internal politics but by its extractive external relations, and trace the concrete historical processes of this extraction. The "migration boomerang" from US destabilization in Guatemala, Nicaragua, and El Salvador – driven by the needs of capital like the United Fruit Company – demonstrates the dialectic in action.The empire's domination creates the displaced peoples it then scapegoats to divide the working class. Erald connects this to the long arc of capitalist development, from the Atlantic slave system to the prison-industrial complex, showing how the ruling class has always used race and nationality to prevent united class consciousness.With the MMT lens, Steve explains that this is directly tied to how a Federal Job Guarantee would shatter this dynamic by eliminating the "reserve army of labor" and the power of capital to discipline workers.Erald Kolasi is a writer and researcher focusing on the nexus between energy, technology, economics, complex systems, and ecological dynamics. His book, The Physics of Capitalism, came out from Monthly Review Press in February 2025. He received his PhD in Physics from George Mason University in 2016. You can find out more about Erald and his work on his website, www.eraldkolasi.com. Subscribe to his Substack: https://substack.com/@technodynamics
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