Raw Milk

Summary

Maintenance Phase Podcast Summary

Episode: "Raw Milk"

Hosts: Aubrey Gordon & Michael Hobbes
Date: November 13, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Aubrey and Michael dive headlong into the world of raw milk: what it is, the history of pasteurization, the myths versus scientific reality, the resurgence of raw milk in wellness and right-wing circles, and the tangled political, social, and historical factors that keep this perennial public health issue in the headlines. The episode is a classic Maintenance Phase blend of myth-busting, sharp humor, and surprisingly fascinating history.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. What Is Raw Milk and Why Do People Care?

• Definition and Process:
  • Raw milk is simply milk that has not been pasteurized—i.e., not heated to kill dangerous bacteria.
  • Pasteurization today is a quick process: raising milk to 160°F for 15 seconds. Kills a host of deadly pathogens including E. coli, salmonella, listeria, diphtheria, and tuberculosis.
  • “Pasteurization is only heating a liquid to well below boiling temperatures in order to kill germs that can make you very sick.” — Aubrey [01:57]
• Misconceptions:
  • Many see pasteurization as “unnatural processing,” but Michael points out, “It’s as unnatural as me, like, applying heat to other foods to cook them.” [02:41]
• Historical Use:
  • Humans have been heating milk to kill germs for centuries, long before Louis Pasteur, with evidence in China and Japan as early as the 1100s.
  • “It’s not like a Western concept.” — Aubrey [03:04]

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2. Pasteurization Saves Lives: The Science and History

• Pre-Pasteurization Dangers:
  • Before modern sanitation, raw milk was a major vector for diseases such as tuberculosis—especially devastating to children.
    • Quote from the book Milk!:

    “Bovine tuberculosis, a disease found in cattle, is transmitted to humans through milk. It attacks the glands, intestines and bones. Children are particularly susceptible and are often kept in braces for years to keep their spines from becoming deformed.” — Aubrey quoting [05:14]

  • “It’s such a miracle that it’s not a live issue anymore…yet we have all these grifters just being like, was that really good? Let’s bring it back.” — Michael [05:46]
• Epidemiological Evidence:
  • CDC review: Over a 13-year period, raw milk was linked to 150 times more outbreaks than pasteurized milk; states allowing raw milk had double the dairy-related foodborne illnesses compared to those that banned it. [06:14]
  • Raw milk is a very small market, yet much riskier.

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3. Nutrition Myths Debunked

• Claim: Pasteurization supposedly makes milk less nutritious.
• Reality:
  • Systematic reviews indicate negligible vitamin loss (reduction in E, C, some Bs, and folate; slight increase in vitamin A). However, these vitamins are present in minuscule amounts in raw milk.
    • “A full pint of raw milk contains 0% of your vitamin C for the day.” — Aubrey [10:02]
    • “Vitamin E…raw milk gets you to 3%. Pasteurized milk gets you to 2%.” — Aubrey [10:11]
  • “Surely losing out on some B12 is, like, worth it to not get sick.” — Michael [09:11]
• Other Claims:
  • Raw milk’s supposed probiotics mostly mean “pathogens that will make you sick.” [10:21]

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4. History of Pasteurization and Raw Milk Policy

• Pasteur and His Contemporaries:
  • Pasteur developed the process mainly for alcohol, with milk pasteurization suggested later by others.
  • Urbanization pooled milk from larger herds and mixed sources, compounding contamination risk.
• Regulation Milestones:
  • Early 1900s: Cities like New York and Chicago debated—and only slowly enacted—pasteurization mandates. Public health crusaders like Nathan Strauss led campaigns after harrowing child mortality statistics linked to raw milk:
    • “Between 1895 and 1897, while the 3,900 children were being fed supposedly safe raw milk, 1,509 of them died.” — Michael [20:08]
  • “Swill milk” scandalized cities; newspaper rhetoric was downright brutal.
    • “Diseased libels upon the fair name of cows.” — Michael quoting 1858 NYT [17:54]
• Industry Pushback and Consumer Tastes:
  • Early resistance included complaints that pasteurization changed milk’s taste.
• Modern Regulatory Landscape:
  • By 1980s, most states highly restricted or banned raw milk sales, but the FDA only acted federally after major outbreaks and lawsuits, like California’s Altadena Dairy scandal. [24:03–27:09]
  • Legal loopholes (milk clubs, herd shares, labeling as “pet food”) persist today.

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5. Raw Milk Hype: Grifters, Advocacy, and Backlash

• The Weston A. Price Foundation:
  • Central “wellness” organization pushing animal fats, anti-vegetarianism, and raw milk (“REAL milk”); taps into wellness, tradwife, and alt-right milieus.
    • “It’s like the dumbest, woo-woo aunt…also with a ton of power.” — Michael [35:00]
  • Arguments often blend nostalgia, anti-government rhetoric, and pseudoscience:
    • “Real milk…is an inherently safe food…contains numerous bioactive components that kill pathogens in the milk, prevent pathogen absorption... No other food…contains a built-in safety system like the one in raw milk.” — Michael quoting Weston A. Price [43:27]
  • The foundation provides legal defense resources for raw milk producers, boosting farmers’ profiles and framing government regulation as persecution.
• Notable Figures:
  • Mark McAfee (Raw Farm USA): Serial violator of laws, selling raw milk as “pet food” and denying avian flu dangers.
    • “You may think I’m some kind of crazy person, but show me one person who’s ever gotten sick from raw milk. With avian flu, viruses don’t exist in raw milk. They die off quickly. Fearing viruses is ridiculous.” — McAfee [48:56]
  • Amos Miller: Amish dairy farmer, refuses to get permits, heavily boosted as a “salt of the earth” persecution story and WAPF conference sponsor (where RFK Jr. keynoted). [53:04]

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6. Modern Raw Milk Culture: Media, Conspiracism, and Wellness Grift

• Political and Cultural Alignment:
  • Recent years have seen an odd coalition of left-hippie wellness folks, right-wing contrarians, con artists, and libertarian populists rally behind raw milk—a la anti-vaccine movements.
  • “Joe Rogan says he’s a raw milk drinker… switches pretty quickly from raw milk to whole milk as the language he uses. So I think he doesn’t know what we’re talking about.” — Aubrey [54:23]
  • “Turning Point USA sold a shirt that said ‘Got Raw Milk’…it did have an illustration of a bull on.” — Michael [55:09]
  • Gwyneth Paltrow, Goop herself, admits to using raw milk in coffee while acknowledging the pseudoscience behind it. [55:54]
• Market Realities:
  • Raw milk is still a niche but growing market (21% increase in 2024—but from a tiny base). [07:48]
  • Small and family farms, squeezed out of mass dairy, sometimes embrace raw milk as a prestige, differentiating product—akin to selling in glass bottles or labeling as “GMO free.”
• Pseudo-Scientific “Farm Effect”:
  • Claims that kids raised on (possibly) raw milk have fewer allergies are based on extremely thin, misinterpreted evidence from European farm studies—“even for them, this is thin.” — Michael [60:39]
• Echo Chamber and Social Media:
  • Tradwives, Gab, Rumble, Infowars actively share raw milk hype and anti-pasteurization conspiracy theories.
  • “Raw milk dovetails really nicely with a number of other right wing projects and conspiracies.” — Aubrey [61:28]

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7. Should Raw Milk Be Legal? Public Risk vs. Personal Freedom

• The Regulatory Dilemma:
  • Michael: “Raw milk is different because there isn’t actually any, like, benefit to it. The reported benefits are fake. Like, people are lying. And then it just feels like it’s in a category that’s much closer to just driving without a seatbelt.” [63:16]
  • “So many people are getting raw milk under the misapprehension that it will prevent their kids from getting allergies…their kids are getting fucking diphtheria and, like, old timey ass diseases.” — Aubrey [63:59]
• Kids as Involuntary Victims:
  • The hosts underscore that children rarely choose what they ingest, raising the stakes for regulation.
    • “If kids are being given raw milk, those kids are not in charge of the decision.” — Michael [63:41]
• Final Thoughts:
  • “[This] isn’t even science. I think a lot of it is just common sense. This is not making milk into an ultra processed food…just heating it to 160 degrees for 15 seconds, you fucking weirdos.” — John Lucy, food scientist, quoted by Aubrey [64:51]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the “naturalness” of pasteurization:

  “It’s as unnatural as me, like, applying heat to other foods to cook them.” — Michael [02:41]

• On raw milk’s risk:

  “That’s crazy, because also raw milk is not that big of a market. So if they’re having these huge outbreaks, that means that it’s a small number of people but much more likely to get sick.” — Michael [06:51]

• On the claims of nutrition loss:

  “Vitamin E…raw milk gets you to 3%. Pasteurized milk gets you to 2%.” — Aubrey [10:11] “You should be worrying less about vitamin E than you should about fucking tuberculosis.” — Michael [10:11]

• Satirizing the grift:

  “By probiotics, I mean tuberculosis, diphtheria.” — Michael [10:36] “One of those things. One of the more popular workarounds is something, something called a milk club, which is essentially like an underground railroad for listeria.” — Aubrey [29:56]

• On contemporary marketing/fads:

  “You could use the paleo bullshit language as a way to sell heating milk to kill germs.” — Aubrey [32:56] “Just call it deliberate sunshine milk. The milk has gotten red light therapy.” — Michael [33:17]

• On the cyclical nature of raw milk trends:

  “It becomes a circular thing where, like, then you get the stories where, like, ‘oh, the movement for raw milk is getting bigger’…and then that feeds into the next round.” — Michael [53:51]

• On the ridiculousness of anti-pasteurization rhetoric:

  “It’s not even like, do you believe in bacteria? It’s like, walk me through what you think milk is.” — Michael [55:24]

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Timeline of Key Segments

• 00:11–03:14 — Introduction, raw milk basics, pasteurization explained
• 04:00–06:00 — Pathogens in raw milk & long-term health risks
• 06:14–08:29 — Data on outbreaks, consumption rates, market size
• 09:08–10:47 — Nutrition myths busted
• 10:47–16:44 — History of milk sanitation and early pasteurization
• 16:44–20:51 — Turn-of-the-century campaigns and “swill milk” horrors
• 21:02–28:01 — Regulation, certification, and Altadena Dairy disasters
• 29:39–34:43 — Legal loopholes, milk clubs, herd shares, and modern state/federal law
• 34:43–43:27 — Rise of Weston A. Price Foundation, wellness movement, legal defense
• 43:27–48:56 — Raw milk activism, farmer “martyrs,” outrageous advocacy
• 54:05–57:23 — Modern influencers, Goop, political champions, and conspiracism
• 58:15–62:26 — Economic realities, “farm effect,” social media echo chamber, tradwife aesthetics
• 62:33–65:01 — Should raw milk be legal? Regulation, freedom, children’s rights
• 64:51 — Final word from food scientist John Lucy

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Tone and Language

• The hosts oscillate between exasperation and dark humor, with sharp skepticism toward pseudoscience and irony-laden, sometimes profane, asides.
• Michael often adopts a sarcastic, incredulous tone (“Just say fucking birds aren't real”), while Aubrey excels at deadpan readings of both scientific literature and crank manifestos.
• Pop culture references (“The milk has gotten red light therapy…on your balls”), self-deprecating jokes, and playful banter abound, always in service of demystifying junk science.

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Takeaway

Ultimately, the episode is a thorough, often hilarious, and occasionally chilling reminder that public health measures like pasteurization exist for a reason, and that “natural” does not mean “safe.” The modern raw milk craze, like many wellness fads, is less about nutrition and more about nostalgia, rebellion, and, all too frequently, opportunistic grifting.

“A lot of people just don’t trust science anymore. But I don’t even think this is science. I think a lot of it is just common sense.” — John Lucy, quoted at [64:51]

Transcript

[A]

I'm so curious how you're gonna make a real episode out of this.

[B]

I know we were talking yesterday and you were like, I don't know how this is an episode. And I was like, yeah, it's not just an episode. There's so much of it that I'm having a really hard time editing it down.

[A]

I was at the Louvre with some people today, and I was like, I have to leave because I'm recording a podcast. They're like, what's it about? And I said, raw milk. And there was like this long sign. So they sort of cocked their heads like a golden retriever. They're like, raw milk. You gotta leave for that.

[B]

You're doing.

[A]

You're recording for, like, three hours on Raw Milk. I'm here instead of the Louvre tonight. Aubrey, you better make it. You better make it.

[B]

He's a cultured, masculine man. All right.

[A]

You're probably going to fact check this one.

[B]

Oh, great.

[A]

Welcome to Main's phase, the podcast that must be heated to 145 degrees for 30 minutes.

[B]

It's shorter than that now, but yeah.

[A]

I'm Michael Hobbs.

[B]

I'm Aubrey Gordon. If you would like to support the show, you can do [e-mail] maintenancephase or you can subscribe through Apple Podcast. It's the same audio content. Michael. Aubrey, I'm so amped.

[A]

Just get into it. Just start. Start whatever you need to tell me. Go.

[B]

So today we're talking about raw milk. I was gonna ask you if you've tracked the raw milk debate at all, and you were like, I don't think there's an episode there. So I think that might be my answer to how much you've track.

[A]

I mean, we talked about this with the honey. The, like, blue zones honey shit that, like. Because pasteurization, like, I think people think it's like a science word, but all it means is, like, taking something up to a temperature and then, like, cooling it down to kill the bacteria. It's not like a big scary, like, quote unquote processing thing like the ultra processed foods. Whatever. It's like the most basic shit.

[B]

Pasteurization is only heating a liquid to well below boiling temperatures in order to kill germs that can make you very sick. Pasteurization today lasts for less than a minute. You're raising the temperature of milk for a matter of seconds, and it kills a ton of germs. It kills E. Coli, salmonella, listeria, diphtheria, strep. Fucking tuberculosis is in raw milk. Tuberculosis on top of killing all those germs. It also extends shelf life pretty considerably.

[A]

It's very funny to classify this as this, like, unnatural process when it's like people like, figured, even if they didn't know the science, people, like, kind of figured this out, like, a long time ago.

[B]

Right. It's as unnatural as me, like, applying heat to other foods to cook them.

[A]

I know.

[B]

And I also think a lot of people don't know that prior to pasteurization, it was like a common step in recipes to be like, you using milk. Boil it first, baby.

[A]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[B]

Actually, people have been heating liquids to kill germs for like a thousand years before pastures really, Really a long time.

[A]

It's not like a western concept.

[B]

No, it's also not a western concept. The, like, earliest record that I found was in the 1100s in both China and Japan.

[A]

Right. It's like saying, like, don't give in to, like, western bullshit. Eat like, raw chicken breast.

[B]

So on top of those existing pathogens in milk, we now have bird flu in milk.

[A]

Oh, God. Do we? I didn't even know that. Yep.

[B]

When cows contract avian flu, their highest concentrations of the virus are in their mammories.

[A]

Like the song from cats memories. Sorry, I'm cutting that. I'm gutting that. That's for you. Thank you.

[B]

The good news is that we know that pasteurization is effective in killing H5N1, which is the avian flu virus. As of last November, avian flu was in 500 herds of dairy cows in 15 states.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The USDA is no longer publicly reporting info on avian flu cows so knows where we're at now. Feels so good. I feel so safe. Sale of infected milk has also not been federally banned. Like bird flu infected milk has not been federally banned because they are simply too busy firing everyone.

[A]

I'm saving my we live in hells for later in the episode, but we truly do live in hell.

[B]

When I started researching this, I really thought we were talking about sort of food poisoning level events. That's part of it. But there can also be long term and permanent effects from these pathogens. According to the fda, listeria, which is one of the common pathogens in raw milk, listeria in pregnant people can lead to stillbirth and miscarriage.

[A]

Yeah, Listeria is really, really rough stuff. Yeah.

[B]

E. Coli can lead to husband, which can cause kidney failure and tuberculosis. So there's a book that I read for this called Milk Exclamation point. That was a history of milk that's.

[A]

Such a good idea.

[B]

Jeb.

[A]

Kudos.

[B]

In that book. The book was great. And I really loved reading this history of milk. And every time someone was like, what are you reading? I was like, this awesome history of milk. People would just like glaze over. So in this book they write, quote, bovine tuberculosis, a disease found in cattle, is transmitted to humans through milk. It attacks the glands, intestines and bones. Children are particularly susceptible and are often kept in braces for years to keep their spines from becoming deformed.

[A]

It's one of those like destructive diseases of like humankind. And it's like such a miracle that it's not a live issue anymore. It's such a huge advancement for humankind and yet we have all these grifters just being like, was that really good? Let's bring it back.

[B]

I mean, I think in this way a lot of the raw milk stuff kind of follows a similar path to a lot of the anti vax stuff, which is just like, I haven't personally seen a child with tuberculosis. How bad can it be?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[B]

The CDC has conducted a number of reviews on foodborne illness outbreaks linked to dairy products. One of Those covered a 13 year period. This was from 1893 to 2006. They covered all 50 states. The study's authors concluded that raw milk was linked to 150 times more outbreaks than pasteurized milk. No way. They also found that states where raw milk sale was legal had twice the incidence of foodborne illness outbreaks related to dairy versus states where raw milk is restricted or banned.

[A]

That's crazy, because also raw milk is not that big of a market. So if they're having these huge outbreaks, that means that it's a small number of people but much more likely to get sick.

[B]

That's exactly right. Milk consumption overall has been trending downward in the US since the 70s.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

People are no longer. I mean, you can sort of see it culturally, right? Like when we were kids there would be like families where you'd be like, your drink to go with dinner is a glass of milk.

[A]

Is that not true anymore?

[B]

I don't think so.

[A]

Is it all like monster energy now? Is that what the kids are thinking?

[B]

It's all oat milk for these soy boys. So milk consumption overall has been trending downward for like 50 years. But raw milk consumption appears to be on the rise, right? According to analysis from the University of Delaware, consumer data showed a 21% increase in raw milk sales from 2023 to 2024.

[A]

Since that's a relative statistic. I'm assuming that's from, like a very low baseline.

[B]

Yes, it is a low baseline. So an analysis of two pretty large scale and nationally representative FDA surveys in 2016 and 2019 gave us a pretty good window into what raw milk consumption looks like. 4.4% of American adults said that they had consumed raw milk in the last year, and 1% reported consuming raw milk weekly.

[A]

Okay, that is like, thank God, like, blessedly small.

[B]

Totally. It's a small number of people. But then when you're like 150, 50 times the likelihood of illness outbreak, like, woof.

[A]

On the thing about milk consumption falling in general, I do a thing where if I'm getting a brownie or a cookie at a cafe, I will order a glass of milk with it, because a cookie and milk is hella good. It used to be that cafes and stuff would have listed on the menu a glass of milk, but now they don't even know what to charge me. Oftentimes they'll just give me a glass of milk.

[B]

Wokeness has gone too far. Michael.

[A]

I love it. I'll take some free milk with my cookie.

[B]

There are a lot of claims from MAHA types currently about pasteurization making milk less nutritious, but the science just doesn't bear that out.

[A]

Also, how much nutrition do you fucking need from milk?

[B]

Right?

[A]

Surely losing out on some B12 is, like, worth it to not get sick.

[B]

So a 2011 systematic review looked at 40 studies. Pasteurization decreased the amount of vitamins E, C, and some B vitamins and folate, and it increased the concentration of vitamin A. So on its face, it looks like it's true that pasteurization can reduce the amount of some vitamins in milk. However, those vitamins exist in raw milk in very small quantities.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

A couple of four examples. Pasteurization reduces the amount of vitamin C in milk. Okay? But a full pint of raw milk contains 0% of your vitamin C for the day.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Okay. Vitamin E. That same full pint of raw milk gets you to 3% of your recommended daily allowance. Pasteurized milk gets you to 2%.

[A]

Also, you know this from the last episode that I'm a vitamin E truther. You should be worrying less about vitamin E than you should about fucking tuberculosis and like, Listeria, like bugs in your juice.

[B]

MAHA types also argue that pasteurization kills off, like, enzymes and probiotics and all kinds of stuff. Overwhelmingly, those things are pathogens. The things that they're like, oh, no, it's killing this off. They're like, right. Those are things that will make you sick. I'm so sorry.

[A]

By probiotics, I mean tuberculosis, diphtheria. Most things you eat don't have, like, live probiotics in them. Again, like, the probiotics thing is also kind of weird. It's like, you just don't need to think about this that much.

[B]

And now, Michael, we're gonna get in the Wayback Machine, and we're gonna talk through the history of the raw milk debate, particularly in the US we're gonna.

[A]

Start with the birth of a man named Louis Pasteur.

[B]

We sure are.

[A]

Wait, are we.

[B]

Actually, we're gonna talk about Pasteur for a minute.

[A]

I'm kind of an expert. Cause, like, I'm in France right now, so, like, I can just. I'll just walk us through this part. Do you want me to, like, do this part?

[B]

I'll just close my notes. You tell me about pasteurization and about Louis Pasteur.

[A]

I speak three words of French, so, like, I'm actually qualified to do this part. The thing is, that's actually why I'm here. The French government heard me pronounce pret a manger.

[B]

No.

[A]

And they were like, that's so good. We're inviting you as a diplomatic trip to this country.

[B]

You're such a fucking. You're such a little troll.

[A]

Even for me, I struggle to pronounce, like, English words. I get it. French is, like, a particularly bad area for me.

[B]

So, as you mentioned, Louis pasteur was a 19th century scientist and chemistry professor from France. He was working at the dawn of germ theory. Theory kind of catching on. In 1864, he took on a distiller as a client. This distiller makes beet. Alcohol. Alcohol out of beets.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The distiller wanted help figuring out why his alcohol kept turning sour so quickly.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

Pasteur helped identify the culprit, which was lactic yeast, and found that heating the beet juice for just a few minutes before fermenting it killed that yeast and allowed it to last longer.

[A]

Beats by Dr. Pasteur. Boom. Oh.

[B]

Oh, it's so bad.

[A]

And I liked it so much, I thought you would.

[B]

The spark is still alive.

[A]

By God, we've still got it.

[B]

Pasteur figured out pasteurization and mostly applied it to wine and beer. Alcohol was the main use of pasteurization. Early on, it was other scientists who figured out the application to milk. In 1882, a scientist named Robert Koch argued that while scientists had previously seen tuberculosis as resulting from just one germ, he identified three different tuberculosis germs. One was a rare form spread by.

[A]

Birds to bird callosis.

[B]

He found that there was another germ that spread TB from person to person. That one was much more common. And there was a third kind that had not previously been identified, which was TB that was spread from cows to people through milk. It's not until a German chemist named Franz von Zacklet came along as the resident pronunciation expert.

[A]

Do you need me to do it?

[B]

Oh, thank you so much. We get a lot of feedback on.

[A]

How good my pronunciations are, how, like, accurate and precise they are. So I can. I can do it. Perseverance.

[B]

Franz von Zaxlet was the first to suggest that pasteurization be used for milk. And that wasn't until 1886, which was 22 years after Pasteur applied it to alcohol. Right.

[A]

It took him a while. Like, figure it out.

[B]

Yeah, totally. Also, part of the reason that we call it pasteurization is, by all accounts, Louis Pasteur was like his own hype man.

[A]

He's like, you know, I'm the guy that did this, right? You guys should just, like, name it after me.

[B]

Around this same time, pasteurization becomes a big public health issue. Or not pasteurization per se, but milk sanitation, maybe milk safety becomes a big public health issue for a few reasons beyond just the. The TB of it all. One is that more people were moving to cities, and that meant that rather than maintaining small herds of dairy cows for small communities that were more geographically dispersed, there were more centralized dairies with larger herds producing larger amounts of milk and sometimes pooling milk from multiple sources. First of all, if you have a larger herd, there's more opportunities for those cows to all get tb. Right. And if you're pooling milk from multiple sources and one of those sources is contaminated and the others are not, you pool it all together and surprise, now it's all contaminated.

[A]

Right, Right. We saw this with mad cow as well.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

When you have, like, basically one big bucket full of juice, if, like, one cow in the juice bucket has a problem, then, like, the whole bucket has a problem.

[B]

It's not until the early 1900s that pasteurization really starts to catch on as a public policy. In 1907, a group of public health advocates started proposing a ban on selling raw milk in New York City.

[A]

Oh, 1907. 07 people have, like, known this is bad for, like, more than 100 years, and we're just, like, doing it anyway.

[B]

When you were like, is there an episode around this? I was like, don't get me started on the 1907 campaign. Mike.

[A]

Jesus Christ.

[B]

The person leading the charge on that effort was a guy named Nathan Strauss. Is this someone who you have come across?

[A]

No.

[B]

So this guy was the owner of Macy's and the owner of Abraham and Strauss, which was one of the biggest department stores in New York City throughout much of the 20th century.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Strauss became really involved in public life. He started doing a bunch of, like, philanthropic work. He worked as an elected official. One of Strauss's main concerns was the public health threat of raw milk. As early as 1858, the New York Times was reporting about the dangers of what they called swill milk. Okay. The city was going through wave after wave after wave of disease outbreaks at this time. Yellow fever, cholera, like, really gnarly shit.

[A]

Also, they should leave raw milk legal, but make them call it swill milk.

[B]

Dude, the reporting on swill milk from this era goes so fucking hard. I'm going to send you. This is from that 1858 piece. I'm sending you a quote.

[A]

The health commissioners agreed with the mayor that the swill milk nuisance must be abated. I love swill milk nuisance.

[B]

There's so many, like, metal turns of phrase.

[A]

In this early next week, they will convene the board of health and unless all the signs fail, will operate with energy and firmness to purify the city of the stables where the disgusting stuff is manufactured, which by a scandalous and lying courtesy we have for years called pure Orange county milk and under stringent penalties prohibit its use. If the board of health has any function, this certainly is one of them. That the business of making and selling swill milk is detrimental to the public health no sane man, not even a city inspector, can any longer doubt. It's so fascinating. They're selling it as pure Orange county milk, which is like the same sort of thing that they do now is like, they rebrand this, like, basically like dirty milk. Like that's what we should be calling it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As something that is, like, sounds slightly virtuous and, like, clean and natural.

[B]

This same piece goes on to accuse swill milk farmers of making, quote, quote, diseased libels upon the fair name of cows.

[A]

Well, they have tuberculosis.

[B]

They also say that they'll have to, quote, show cause before the board why their work of death should not be discontinued.

[A]

More of this. Yeah. Metal also, this is how I feel like, genuinely like the FDA should talk about, like, people who sell raw milk.

[B]

All of that is to say Strauss was not alone in his belief that raw milk was a Culprit. This reporting happened 50 years before the New York campaign. Right. So, like, it was a well known and widely believed thing for decades that raw milk might have a role here, but it hadn't been regulated in any meaningful way. Right.

[A]

So it is almost like a cigarette allegory where it's like, we knew this was bad, but we didn't do anything. We did like weird half measures for ages.

[B]

Yep. So in 1907, Strauss proposed an ordinance to require all milk to either be pasteurized or what was called certified. Certified milk producers would just test their herd way more frequently. They would be held to higher food handling standards, and they would submit their milk for certification from a commission of physicians.

[A]

So they're getting at it upstream. It's like, make sure the milk is clean so you don't have to pasteurize. It is like the attempt.

[B]

Right. But like, even if you do that, you're still like that. None of that guarantees that there's not going to be E. Coli in your milk again. It's like getting more at the TB of it all.

[A]

Like, what's even the downside of pasteurization at this point?

[B]

Part of it honestly was consumer demand. People were like, a pasteurized milk tastes weird. It tastes cooked. And at that point it was cooked. Right. Like, we pasteurized milk now for way less time.

[A]

Right? Right.

[B]

So people are like, dude, raw milk tastes dope. This stuff tastes bad. I don't want to drink the stuff that tastes bad.

[A]

Yeah. I wonder if it tasted closer to like, how UHT milk tastes now, because you can definitely, like, tell the difference.

[B]

During the campaign, Strauss told a story. This has haunted me. Haunted. I am going to send you this quote from Milk, Milk, Milk.

[A]

The island was being used as an orphanage. And in order to ensure the children had a steady supply of good, clean, fresh milk, a dairy herd was maintained there. But between 1895 and 1897, while the 3,900 children were being fed supposedly safe raw milk, 1,509 of them died. Holy shit.

[B]

Yeah, dude.

[A]

40% of the kids died.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

In response to this frightening statistic, Strauss built a pasteurization plant on the island. He made no attempt to change the children's diet or improve the orphanages hygiene, just pasteurized the milk. The mortality rate declined from 42% of the children to 28%. Honestly, 28% still sounds real bad. I thought they would have a way better happy ending to this. Right.

[B]

It sounds way bad, but it is a 14% reduction, which is like a lot of kids just from Heating up the milk a little bit for a short period of time.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Despite that, like, really visceral, really heartbreaking example, the 1907 campaign failed. And so did a second attempt in 1909. The ban didn't pass until 1910. And again, it's not a full ban. It's just like, you can only sell it if it's certified, right?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

In the meantime, New York got scooped by Chicago, who beat him to the punch and became the first city to ban raw milk in the U.S. they did that in 1909, but Chicago's implementation was held up for more than five years for the same reasons that the New York ban didn't pass.

[A]

It's also funny, like, thinking about how ambitious this policymaking was compared to so much policymaking now. I mean, you're basically requiring an entire sector to like, add on this very expensive process. It's good. Like, I think much more of this kind of ambitious policymaking should take place. But now it's like anything gets proposed that has any effect on businesses. It's like decades of litigation. It's like, it's so hard to do this stuff now.

[B]

It's really remarkable how, how sort of gutsy the public policy work was. And also, it did take, like 50 years of knowing better.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it took a super rich dude putting like, all of his money and political capital into making this thing happen.

[A]

That does feel more American now. Now it feels American.

[B]

We got there. We got there.

[A]

We did it, folks. The only good things that happen are because, like, rich people want them.

[B]

So by 1917, which was just 10 years after Strauss's first campaign on raw milk, 46 major US cities required pasteurization.

[A]

Nice.

[B]

From there, those city ordinances became state law. It was a dance sensation sweeping the nation. And people get more accustomed to pasteurized milk and what it tastes like. Right. By the 80s, 1980s, a commanding majority of states have either heavily restricted or outright banned sale of raw milk.

[A]

So we're in like, the modern era where, like, you basically can't get raw milk unless you, like, go to great hassle.

[B]

That's not true. It's not yet that impossible because while states have taken action at the state level, the FDA has not taken federal action. So it is still legal to sell raw milk across state lines. So even if you live in a state where it's not legal, you could mail order raw milk. Like, I'm in Portland, I could drive across the river to Vancouver, Washington.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's sort of what we're talking about. At this point. So. So we're gonna spend a little time now talking about like what got the FDA to finally take action. And that's a story that starts in the 70s and 80s with one of the biggest dairies in California and in the country, Altadena.

[A]

It's funny that the thing that got them to take action was not like the deaths of many children.

[B]

We'll get there, don't worry.

[A]

That's weird.

[B]

If you've been to a grocery store in California in the last like 50 years, chances are they sold Altadena dairy products. Altadena remains one of the biggest dairies in the country. In the 70s and 80s, they were also one of the largest dairies selling certified raw milk. So they're doing the certification process. Right. And they're selling raw milk. According to the LA Times, Altadena was subject to dozens of recalls in the space of like 10 years.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

Not only for products that they sold retail, but also because they supplied raw milk to other producers who then made things like queso fresco with it and that would then get recalled in the case of that contaminated queso fresco that caused the deaths of 22 Angelenos.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Through all of this, Altadena defended itself and denied any responsibility. In every step along the way, every case, their owner was out in the press constantly referring to Altadena's raw milk as, quote, the cleanest milk in the world.

[A]

By clean, we do not mean it doesn't kill kids, we mean something else.

[B]

The owner is also alleging in the press that this is all a conspiracy against raw milk. Which like. Well, it kind of is in that.

[A]

Like there's a scientific consensus that your product is dangerous, then like, yeah, it kind of is.

[B]

Right. Like a flu shot is a conspiracy against the flu.

[A]

Right. A bunch of parents got together just cause we killed kids.

[B]

I should also say this dude no longer owns Altadena. Altadena's still around. It's no longer owned by like total crackpots. So like if that's where you buy your milk, don't worry, it's not going to like a raw milk truth or anymore. And they no longer sell raw milk. They're not doing that anymore.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So this all comes to a head in 1987 when two Altadena court cases finally make kind of a meaningful dent in Altadena's reputation and in their ability to sort of do what they're gonna do. One is the Paul Telford case. A 66 year old man named Paul Telford was undergoing radiation for Lung cancer. And his doctors had him on a liquid diet. Altadena certified raw milk, advertised itself as safe and clean and pure. So he was drinking it regularly for the few weeks leading up to his death. Altadena argued in court that cancer killed him, but at the time of his death, he had infections caused by both salmonella and list. Oh, right.

[A]

And also the idea that somebody like that needs, like, more vitamins more than they need, like, milk free of pathogens is insane.

[B]

Yeah. As a result, for the first time ever, Altadena faces a court judgment finding them liable for Telford's death. Like, yay. They were found liable. Boo. They were ordered to pay 40 grand to Telford's.

[A]

Oh, God. Yeah. You just like, kill five or six people a year and just pay. Pay that out and keep making your product.

[B]

Right. It's such a small AM amount in today's dollars, that's around 113 grand. The other lawsuit that is sort of making its way through the courts around this time was filed as impact litigation by a consumer watchdog group. That watchdog group is Public Citizen, okay. Founded by Ralph Nader.

[A]

Nader's like, a really, like, influential guy on consumer safety stuff.

[B]

So Public Citizen filed suit against Altadena. They co filed with the Gray Panthers. Do you know about the Gray Panthers? It's like a seniors advocacy group. And I fucking love the name. It makes me so happy.

[A]

I thought it was gonna be like a combination of Black Panthers and a bunch of white people. So then we're grayed.

[B]

You were just color mixing in your brain. The suit argued that Altadena was making false advertising claims. They were marketing their raw milk products as, quote, safe, healthy, wholesome and pure, and as suitable for vulnerable populations like babies and sick people.

[A]

That's insane.

[B]

The court ultimately ruled in favor of Public Citizen and the Gray Panthers, and they find Altadena liable.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

That ruling prompted a federal court to sort of force the FDA's hand. We've talked about this in the past, that the FDA can only regulate interstate commerce. Things that happen within the state fall at the state level. So back in 1973, the FDA had strongly considered a ruling that only pasteurized milk could be shipped across state lines, which would have effectively banned interstate commerce of raw milk. They consider it again in 1985, but that's during the Reagan administration. And, you know those fuckers aren't passing new regs, right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Public Citizen ruling addressed the FDA directly and said, basically, look, like, you can do what you want, but, quote, there is no longer Any question of the fact that raw milk is unsafe.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So they now have like judges saying publicly in high profile cases, like, come on, jokers, nothing about this is safe.

[A]

This is literally why we have a government that you can't just like sell a dangerous product to people.

[B]

Yes. And you can't just be like, I don't know, regulation just sort of isn't our thing.

[A]

It's literally like what you're trading off is like a slight inconvenience to a corporation versus the deaths of children.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This isn't even like hard trade off. Yeah.

[B]

Following the FDA ban, following this sort of proliferation of state bans, people pretty immediately try to find workarounds and they're successful in doing so. Of course they are.

[A]

How do I keep doing this thing that kills kids?

[B]

One of those things. One of the more popular workarounds is something, something called a milk club, which is essentially like an underground railroad for listeria.

[A]

When you put it that way, it's less appealing.

[B]

There are like a bunch of organizations that get really into milk clubs. One of them, person named Liz Reitzig, who is one of the big popularizers of milk clubs, who also was a supporter of the raw Milk Freedom writers.

[A]

That's so good. I'm basically Rosa Parks. I want them to be able to kill kids. I'm essentially Gandhi.

[B]

It's like staggering. Mother Jones describes the Raw Milk Freedom Riders as, quote, a caravan of self described frustrated mothers who wanted the repeal of federal raw milk laws.

[A]

But it's like the same framing where it's like, oh, these are just like concerned mothers.

[B]

It's mumsnet but for diphtheria as opposed.

[A]

To like people who are just like anti science freaks.

[B]

In addition to milk clubs, there's a workaround called herd shares. So the idea is you're not buying raw milk. You're paying to lease a cow in a dairy herd and then the dairy delivers raw milk as a byproduct of the cow you fake own.

[A]

I love that we're not buying it, we're like subscribed.

[B]

That all brings us to our contemporary context nightmare. Interestingly, the current sort of landscape around raw milk laws is that frankly, a lot of blue states allow the sale of raw milk and a lot of red states ban it outright.

[A]

Is it illegal?

[B]

In Oregon you can buy raw milk, but only directly on the farm from a farmer with a herd of three cows or fewer.

[A]

Oh, weird.

[B]

Well, that's because of transmission of bovine tuberculosis. A smaller herd can't transmit it as much. Right. That there's fewer opportunities for the disease spreading. Washington and California both have legal raw milk retail sale. You can go to the grocery store and buy raw milk. Really? In Washington and California, it's at gas.

[A]

Stations next to the kratom.

[B]

I mean one stop shop.

[A]

It's so just like the sketchy things aisle.

[B]

You know, Erewhon sells it in California. Of course they do. And it's 13 bucks.

[A]

The funny thing is I think you could actually do a thing where you're like, look, you want raw milk, we don't want raw milk. Why don't we compromise and we come up with some sort of process where like we'll bring it up to a certain temperature but like it won't be brought up to boiling. How about that as like a compromise? Like they just don't know what passes. And they're like, yeah, that sounds pretty reasonable. As long as you don't bring it up to boiling. It's like, yeah, actually you know what, we can meet in the middle on this.

[B]

You know, you treat it like it's a new discovery. We found a totally non chemical way.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Sanitize milk. It's like perfectly natural. Totally. And actually it dates back hundreds of years. So it's an ancestral way of keeping milk safe. You could use the like paleo bullshit language as a way to sell heating milk to kill germs.

[A]

Just call it like deliberate sunshine milk sunning. We're basically sunning the mil.

[B]

The milk has gotten red light therapy. Just like the kind you put on your ball.

[A]

The only, like my only hopes for America now because everything is just like on fire, is just like, let's just. How can we lie to these people to get the outcomes that we want because they're so dumb.

[B]

Ultimately, in 2007, we were at a national high point of raw milk regulation. Just four states allowed for retail sale of raw milk in grocery stores.

[A]

Say there never names. Who was it?

[B]

I don't remember which four states. I didn't look into which ones in 2007. It does, by the way, it does seem like California has always been a state that doesn't ban it. Which I'm like, fucking California, man.

[A]

Gwyneth is too big to fail.

[B]

In recent years, a number of states have repealed those bans and allowed for the sale of raw milk. Today, many coastal states allow retail sale of raw milk. California and Washington, a number of western states, states, most of New England, all allow for retail sale of raw milk. Oh, so how in less than 20 years have we seen Such a backlash to pasteurization and a rollback of those state bans.

[A]

Right.

[B]

The story of how we got here starts with the founding of the Weston A. Price Foundation.

[A]

I was gonna ask about this if they're gonna make a little cameo.

[B]

Oh, it's not even a little cameo. It's like a protagonist, not antagonist.

[A]

Ann.

[B]

Antagonist? Is. Is that a drag name? Has someone. So, Mike, what do you know about the Weston A. Price Foundation?

[A]

Well, I know of them from previous show research. Yes, it's like the dumbest, like, Woo Woo aunt that you can possibly imagine, but also with like a ton of power.

[B]

Woo Woo Aunt is such a great description of the vibes at Weston A. Price. There's like a patina, there's like a hippie aesthetic to some of the things that they put produce. So here is. I'm going to send you their mission.

[A]

Statement, which I think I was going to send you in the Seed Oils episode. So we're coming full circle because I know I have it in my notes. I'll just do it from memory. The foundation is dedicated to restoring nutrient dense foods to the human diet through education, research and activism. It supports a number of movements that contribute to this objective, including accurate nutrition instruction, organic and biodynamic food farming, pasture feeding of livestock, community supported farms, honest and informative labeling, prepared parenting, and nurturing therapies. Specific goals include establishment of universal access to clean certified raw milk and a ban on the use of soy formula for infants. It goes really nuts at the end there.

[B]

They're also leaving out of this mission statement, like how much of their whole thing is about animal fats and like fat is actually good for you and you should be eating meat, fat and like keto kind of elements.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So that mission statement has like a fair amount of curb appeal if you're not a partisan or if you're like a little left leaning. Here's a little glimpse into the issues currently listed on their website.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Say no to cell towers in your neighborhood.

[A]

Oh, I love this. Okay.

[B]

Bird flu in raw milk. Our founder reveals the lies underlying the latest attack on raw milk.

[A]

Oh, they're debunking you from an hour ago.

[B]

Aubrey in shambles, Weston A Brace foundation destroys sjw. They also have a section called main health topics. Here are some of their main health topics. Cod liver oil, our number one superfood.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Why butter is better. Nature's healthiest fat vaccinations. The most important decision parents will ever make.

[A]

I wonder where they come down on that. I wonder what decision they think is best.

[B]

And then the last one is just soy alert, exclamation point.

[A]

The funny thing is they sound like some sort of, like, 1910s. Grandma, they're gonna give you a Werther's and measles.

[B]

The foundation is named for Weston A. Price. Do you know who Weston A. Price is? I did not.

[A]

I looked this up, but I forgot.

[B]

He's a dentist from Cleveland who authored a book called Nutrition, Physical Degeneration that was published in 1939. Price traveled to more than a dozen countries to observe the health and diets of different societies. His argument was that the dental and physical health of non industrialized.

[A]

Excuse me, hiccup is your fucking beans for breakfast.

[B]

I only have beans to blame. They make me all that I am. His argument was that the health of non industrialized communities was superior to the health of industrialized communities.

[A]

Laughably false, but okay.

[B]

He said that the culprit for Americans health woes was, quote, foods of modern commerce, okay, what we now call processed and ultra processed foods. Here is a synopsis of his conclusions from a of piece, Peace in the Atlantic. I apologize for making you read something from the Atlantic.

[A]

I hate you.

[B]

I know. I know you do.

[A]

It says in the conclusion of Price's book, he suggests a common theme in the diet he observed across the world. The healthy primitives ate plenty of meat, seafood and fats. Americans would be wise to adapt their own diets accordingly, Price warned. Shortly before publishing the book, he'd gone to the Rutland State Fair information Vermont, and had sat for an hour observing the crowd. Three out of every four people he saw there, he said, showed signs of prenatal injury due to poor maternal nutrition. He's like eating a turkey leg at a state fair, just being like, that guy's up. That guy's up. Your mom up. Just like, judging people on no information.

[B]

That's. That is absolute.

[A]

What does that even mean?

[B]

Why I included that part of the. About the state fair. Allow me to introduce this part where he just sits at a state fair and goes, that guy's up. Huh? Yeah.

[A]

Look like it's overbite. That's because your mom didn't eat enough butter.

[B]

So, like, of course, this is like, just like an aggressively racist way of talking about shit, right? He is also a dentist and not a physician, which is a different fucking thing.

[A]

Also, I. I will say, like, when I worked in human rights, I did a lot of work on, like, developing countries. And oftentimes you read, like, nutritional reports and like, in poor countries, people are often eating like 1900 calories of like white rice in a day. Because you can't afford protein. You can't afford like, fat. Like, it's just not factually true that people in like, poor Southeast Asia are eating tons of like, meat and seafood and fats. Those are like rich people food.

[B]

The book didn't make much of a splash when it was first published. I can't imagine why it would. Yeah, but it was influential with two people who matter most, and those are the co founders of the Weston A. Price Foundation.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

One of them is a credentialed person, the other one is not. We're going to talk first about the credentialed person. Mary Enig had a master's and a doctorate in nutritional science. So she is credentialed, but her views are extremely fringe. She passed away in 2014. She was a big critic of vegetarianism.

[A]

Oh, good.

[B]

I love this.

[A]

The, the vegetarian dunking always comes along with this weird animal fat thing, among other things.

[B]

Mary Enig once argued that coconut oil could effectively treat HIV and aids. The other co founder is the one who is still with us. Sally Fallon Morrell is her name. She is not the credentialed one. She has a bachelor's in English from Stanford and a master's in English from ucla. And take it from a L arts major from Brown University. Knock that shit off. You're not a nutrition guy. She co authored a book called the Contagion Myth. Why Viruses, including quote unquote coronavirus are not the cause of disease.

[A]

Our entire show is just leading up to this thing where all of these people just come out against the fucking germ theory of disease.

[B]

Michael, you're not actually asking the questions that matter, which is if germs and viruses don't cause disease, what does? And the answer is 5G.

[A]

Oh, wait, is it literally.

[B]

It is literally a 5G.

[A]

Oh my God. I thought she was gonna do some like imbalance of humors type shit. But this is, this is very innovative.

[B]

In the 90s, she read Weston A. Price's book and it really resonated with her. As a result, she started feeding her kids a high fat diet with lots of animal fats in it. She starts feeding her kids raw milk. She says her children don't have any health problems at all. And she credits that diet for things as like, even for like her kids not needing braces. She's like, it's the animal fats. That's why.

[A]

Or maybe she's decided not to give them braces. They're like Mom, Yeah, totally.

[B]

Their teeth are.

[A]

Oh, it's kind of mean.

[B]

One of the biggest priorities of the foundation. Foundation is raw milk. They don't usually call it raw milk. They call it real milk. Weston. A praise foundation spins off something called the Campaign for Real Milk. Love it. Which no joke to this day has a blog post called the Vendetta against Altadena. Again.

[A]

The whole real milk thing, it's like, what do you think pasteurization is?

[B]

Real milk is only warm once, and that's when it comes out of a cab. It doesn't get warm again later.

[A]

They're all like catastrophizing about this extremely minor thing.

[B]

This is a quote from the website of the Campaign for Real Milk under the header, raw milk safety.

[A]

Okay? It says, real milk milk that is pasture raised, full fat and unprocessed is an inherently safe food. That's because raw milk contains numerous bioactive components that kill pathogens in the milk, prevent pathogen absorption across the intestinal wall, and strengthen the immune system. No other food that we consume contains a built in safety system like the one in raw milk. Dude, this is like the most density of bullshit I think we've ever had.

[B]

Would you like to know what their source for this is? It is one case study from 1984.

[A]

It's like the sheer balls to say, like, not only is raw milk not bad for you, but it's actually super good for you. It's actually the only food that's this good for you. You're basically encouraging people to drink like a shitload of it.

[B]

So in 2007, they also founded something called the Farm to Consumer Legal Defense Fund. And from what I can tell, this is the most effective arm in their raw milk work.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

The fund provides legal support to farmers, presumably farmers aligned with their organizational values. Of course, the defense fund also set a goal, quote, to make raw milk sales legal in every state, right? They sort of put out the word that they're providing legal support and legal defense funds to farmers, right? In that process, they start elevating those dairy farmers in the press. And that is where we start to see a real uptick in more mainstream coverage of raw milk fights. When a raw milk dairy farmer is found to be in violation of a state or local ban, or when raw milk tests positive for really dangerous pathogens, they then kind of court media and push the story as, like, an injustice. Look at how our federal government is attacking these small farmers, right, who are just doing things the way we've all always done things. Don't pay Attention to the mortality rates.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And they frame it as like really devastating evidence of governmental overreach. Right.

[A]

So they're identifying raw milk farmers and then kind of pitching them to the media as like salt of the earth family farmers who are being trodden upon by government overreach. Yeah.

[B]

Like the legal attack doesn't necessarily make headlines in and of itself. Right. It makes more headlines to have people kind of wilding out. And we have a couple of people who have kind of wilded out about raw milk.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I want to spend some time talking about two of their biggest rising stars of the raw milk world.

[A]

I'm like a raw milk influencer. I'm like so popular.

[B]

Oh, my God. I'm like the coolest.

[A]

It's just like me puking in the toilet.

[B]

One of those is someone named Mark McAfee, who is from the San Joaquin Valley in California. In 2000, he co founded what was then called organic Pastures Dairy Company, which was renamed in 2020 to Raw Farm.

[A]

USA, all caps, and now the logos are two AR15s.

[B]

I mean, there's a lot of like distressed American flag graphics happening. Yeah, it's very much like aesthetic by Christian odeja.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

McAfee founds his farm in 2000. By 2007, his products were in 300 stores in California.

[A]

Just fucking room temperature, just on the shelf, just festering.

[B]

To their credit, they do refrigerate it.

[A]

But then why do they refrigerate it? These people don't even believe in bacteria. Why are you refrigerating it? Have like bright green fucking mold floating on it, you fucking weirdos.

[B]

McAfee also had a mail order business that he said brought in about $80,000 a month. Now you might be thinking this is after the FDA ban. How on earth is he selling mail order raw milk across state lines? And that is he is labeling it as pet food, not for human consumption.

[A]

That's like those people that were selling.

[B]

Like fish antibiotics on Amazon, much like Altadena before them. Raw Farm USA has faced a lot of lawsuits and regulation. First up, that labeled as pet food thing didn't last very long. He was doing that in 2007, talking about it in the press. 2007. In 2008, they did face federal criminal charges for that.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

In 2023, federal prosecutors charged that Raw Farm USA had once again been shipping raw milk across state lines. So as a result, they're now in a consent decree.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

Until 2028, the FDA can conduct audits and unannounced inspections. But as we know, the fda, a shell of its former self.

[A]

So you just order raw milk in the fucking mail? It takes, like, a couple days in, like, the back of a van to, like, get to you.

[B]

The farm has had many recalls. The most recent was in December for bird flu in their milk.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

When McAfee was asked for comment on the bird flu recall, he gave comment to Mother Jones. Here is is how he responded to their request for comment on the bird flu recall.

[A]

Trace the money, he wrote in an email in which he also denied bird flu could be a threat to his business or his customer's health. We don't think avian flu causes things to be unsafe. You may think I'm some kind of crazy person, but show me one person who's ever gotten sick from raw milk. With avian flu, viruses don't exist in raw milk. They die off quickly. Fearing viruses is ridiculous, he says. He holds that only people lacking strong microbiomes and good immune systems need worry. Of COVID for instance, he says, I got it, and it was mild. I'm a raw. I'm a raw milk drinker. It didn't hardly faze me. I can't argue with science, Aubrey. He got Covid, and he drinks raw milk.

[B]

Show me one person who got sick from COVID and it was mild. He's saying, only people without good immune systems need to worry. That's a lot of fucking people, dude.

[A]

He's the guy with the turkey leg at the state fair being like, your mom. Your mom drank too much wine, pointing.

[B]

At people being like, fetal alcohol syndrome. He's also very clear on his view of where the demand for raw milk is coming from. He told CBS News, quote, people are seeking raw milk milk like crazy. Anything that the FDA tells our customers to do, they do the opposite.

[A]

Yep, that sounds about right. That sounds like we're dealing with the dumbest fucking people in the country who.

[B]

Are also running it, by the way, to your point. McAfee is currently rumored to be in consideration for a role at HHS under rfkg.

[A]

That's always the fucking epilogue to these people.

[B]

Now, the good news is that he does think bird flu is, quote unquote, a huge scam.

[A]

Oh, good.

[B]

That was backed by pharma companies, quote, to create fear and produce a new vaccine after Covid closed up.

[A]

Just say fucking birds aren't real. Get to the fucking point.

[B]

Just, birds are fake dinosaurs. We all know this.

[A]

God, why not?

[B]

There's another sort of rising star named Amos Miller who is An Amish raw milk dairy farmer in Pennsylvania.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Pennsylvania allows for sale of raw milk. You just have to have a permit. And the core of the issue with Amos Miller is he's like, fuck your permit. I'm never getting a permit. So, like, it is legal to do what he is doing.

[A]

He just decided to do it in the illegal way.

[B]

Right. So I love that requires dairy farmers, raw dairy farmers, to regularly test their milk, their water and their herbs herd. It's pretty fucking reasonable. Permit holders can't, however, produce raw yogurt, kefir, or fresh cheese. I am guessing that that was the problem. He'd have to stop selling some of his products.

[A]

It's also such garbage that you can just fucking sell this dangerous product with a permit. It feels like these people have all been coddled by like these weird carve outs. For what, for what reason are we doing this? It's so weird.

[B]

Pennsylvania's Attorney General has also charged that Amos Miller has also been il shipping raw milk across state lines through what he calls a buyers club. That has led to this kind of wild, protracted face off between Miller and regulators. He and his attorney really seem to be like, leaning into the controversy on a bunch of this. His attorney, while they had a court case in progress, wrote that Pennsylvania's Secretary of Agriculture thinks he's, quote, the food Pope of the world.

[A]

Right. He is kind of the food Pope of Americ, Pennsylvania.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely.

[A]

This guy thinks he's in charge of this issue. Yep. That's how a government works.

[B]

Amos Miller is extremely public about his alignment with the Weston A. Price Foundation. He publicly talks up the foundation. He cites them as kind of a cornerstone of his analysis and as a flashpoint of his politicization around this issue. He has been a sponsor of their annual conference where, fun fact, the keynote speaker has been RFK Jr.

[A]

I'm amazed it took us this long to get to him, honestly.

[B]

For all of those reasons and more, Amos Miller has made a great candidate for right wing stardom. Part of what happens is that these guys start going hard on raw milk publicly. Weston A. Price then boosts the media stories that they're in. Right. And there's this, this sort of like symbiotic relationship of they keep grabbing headlines and Weston A. Price keeps boosting them.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Once we've got these couple of rogue dairy farmers in the headlines, those are now news stories that podcasters can pull up.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

YouTube reaction channels can start to react to and it becomes a topic of conversation that otherwise wouldn't necessarily Be a topic of conversation. Conversation, right.

[A]

It then becomes a circular thing where, like, then you get the stories where, like, oh, the movement for raw milk is getting bigger. And then that then feeds into the next round of people who are like, oh, maybe I should be trying this. And then you get the next round of stories saying, oh, there's a lot of raw milk people around.

[B]

We have had a wave of raw milk endorsements from high profile people, many of whom are friends of the show. Paul Saladino has encouraged feeding raw milk to infants.

[A]

Yeah, great stuff. I mean, he also says that they should, like, eat raw livers and stuff. So at least he's consistent.

[B]

Joe Rogan says he's a raw milk drinker. I watched a whole clip of him talking about it at length, and he switches pretty quickly from raw milk to whole milk as the language he uses. So I think he doesn't know what we're talk like. I genuinely think he doesn't know.

[A]

He's someone. You could go on his show and be like, they need to heat up the milk, Joe. Easy, easy.

[B]

He also talks in the clip. He's like, you can pretty well tell when milk has gone bad. Like, I just sniff it before I drink it, if it's safe or not. And you're like, we're not talking about sour milk, Joe.

[A]

You can't smell listeria, Joe. It's not the same thing.

[B]

It's odorless.

[A]

Oh, my God. Again, these people don't believe in, like, microscopic things that could cause diseases.

[B]

Turning Point USA sold a shirt that said got raw milk on it reference saying, a very timely Got milk reference in 2025, first of all. And second of all, it did have an illustration of a bull on.

[A]

Because now we're at the place where it's like, do you. Do you know where milk comes from?

[B]

God damn.

[A]

It's not even like, do you believe in bacteria? It's like, walk me through what you think milk is.

[B]

It's when you squeeze almonds, Mike.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Thomas Massie, that same Republican from Kentucky, has introduced a bill to overturn the FDA ban on interstate raw milks Sales Goop herself says that she puts raw cream in her coffee each morning, and she says she gets it from Mark McAfee's farm. God.

[A]

Not that I expect any better from Gwyneth, but like, Jesus Christ.

[B]

She acknowledged to the cut that some of the claims around raw milk are quote unquote pseudoscience. But she also said, is someone going to invest in getting a data set around raw milk? Oh, my God, it's not going to be the dairy industry, right? And I'm like, what, are you fucking kidding me? If the dairy industry was like, you can do less work, sell more products at a higher price point across the fucking country, do you not think Altadena would be jumping at the opportunity?

[A]

And also, you're paying for the raw milk. It's also a business. It's not like big business versus, like, small farmers. It's all big business.

[B]

And also like, who's gonna get the data set? We've had the data set since the fucking 1800s, my guy.

[A]

This is like the. This is also of like RFK Jr being like, we're finally going to see whether vaccines work.

[B]

On top of that, there has also been considerable uptick in pro raw milk discourse on Gab and Rumble and Infowars. And a couple of Infowars podcast hosts have talked about it. One of them, Owen Schroyer, said in his podcast the War Room quote, they say bird flu and milk. Bird flu and milk. Oh, it's the scariest thing. They'll just make raw milk illegal. That's what this is all about. And I'm like, them is Trump and RFK Jr.

[A]

Right?

[B]

And even under Democrats, no one was reaching further than the FDA interstate commerce ban. No one was saying it's totally illegal to sell raw milk in the United States of America.

[A]

Right.

[B]

There's some things to think about in terms of like why raw milk has taken. Taken off now after so many years of such successful regulation of it. There are a couple of things. One is that as in the turn of the 19th to 20th century, the dairy industry has been changing in recent decades. More and more independent and family dairy farmers have disappeared. They've been bought out. They've been overtaken by large scale corporate dairy farms. And if small farmers are trying to compete with the margins of huge dairy farms, they can't. Right?

[A]

Right.

[B]

So instead they're going to look for ways to signify that their milk is different and better. This is part of the reason why some small dairies have started putting their milk in glass bottles because it looks like a heftier and more prestige kind of product.

[A]

Oh, that's interesting.

[B]

Right? There are a number of dairy farmers that I read interviews with who are like, look, I don't believe, believe that GMOs are any kind of issue, but we absolutely label our milk as being GMO free because people will pay more if there's a GMO free label on it.

[A]

And people are, I guess, willing to pay More for milk they think is like, fucking has so many vitamins or some shit.

[B]

On top of that, in recent years, there has been more new research to misinterpret. The biggest example of this is that in the late 90s, there was a Swiss epidemiologist who started to look into something called the farm effect. It is this sort of sometimes observed, sometimes not effect where some kids raised on farms appeared to develop allergies and asthma much less than kids raised in other settings. Right. So they published their first study this in 1999, and they found that local kids who lived on farms did indeed appear to have lower rates of allergies. This is just in Switzerland. Right. That's all we're talking about. Studies since then have been considerably more mixed, but there's definitely, like, enough evidence to keep looking. The farm effect appears to be most observed, and in some, like, it might even be exclusively observed in Western European farms. So I'm like, well, there's a lot of differences there.

[A]

And also, that does. Doesn't have anything to do with milk specifically. That's just like. That could be many different things.

[B]

They start looking into farm milk. Essentially, what they're talking about when they talk about farm milk is milk that is produced on the farm. But in that research, they didn't track whether the farm milk was raw or.

[A]

Not because they might be just like, pasteurizing it themselves.

[B]

Right. Or they might be doing what lots and lots of farmers have been doing for hundreds of years and boiling or scalding the milk.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Even though they have not been able to certify what portion of that is raw versus pasteurized versus boiled or scalded milk. Raw milk folks have seized upon this and been like, aha, I knew it. It's the milk.

[A]

Even for them, this is thin.

[B]

It is really thin.

[A]

Farms in other countries have kids who may or may not be drinking raw milk, have fewer allergies. Genuinely, there's like five leaps you have to make to think that's evidence of anything.

[B]

Your kid's gonna get asthma. So as a result, don't let them get asthma. Instead, give them listeria.

[A]

Kill him quicker.

[B]

On top of the dairy industry stuff, on top of that new research, one of the big boosts that appears to have taken place with raw milk consumption is COVID lockdowns and the amount of anti vax and anti science.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Sentiment that. That kicked up. Mark McAfee has talked about what a boom in sales they experienced. Experienced during and after 2020.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Raw milk. And sort of the rhetoric Around Raw milk dovetails really nicely with a number of other right wing projects and conspiracies. So one of the biggest boosters of raw milk has been a number of trad wives. Right? Which is a part of this project around cultural nostalgia and like a throwback to a time with much more massive misogyny.

[A]

And also like everything else on TikTok, it's like mostly people faking it.

[B]

I'm so sorry. You don't think Nara Smith woke up to a sick toddler and was like, I need to make cough drops from scratch.

[A]

Right? Like the, the whole thing is just like, it's like those morning routine videos that we were talking about that are like completely faked. It's just that everyone is like faking the lifestyle that they're living. And this is just like one of the other fake lifestyles that you can pretend that you're doing.

[B]

I will say some folks on the right go so far as to contend that dairies are injecting chemicals into pasteurized milk.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

They call it, quote, state approved milk.

[A]

What?

[B]

Fiat currency.

[A]

That's just like everything you eat is state approved. There's like health inspections at restaurants. On some level, it's state approved.

[B]

I'm a rebel. I don't eat your state approved USDA inspected beef.

[A]

Have fun getting poisoned. Have fun getting fucking listeria.

[B]

Genuinely. And like, I mean, I do think that is sort of the question that we're grappling with here is, is like, what are the risky decisions that we let people make?

[A]

Right.

[B]

We allow people to drink to excess. We allow people to smoke. We give them lots of warnings about it, but they're allowed to do it. We allow people to eat like steak tartare. You know what I mean? Like shit like that. But we also, like, don't let people use like a lot of controlled substances. We don't let you enroll your kid in school without vaccinating them for certain communicable diseases. In a lot of states, not everyone enrolled anymore. Jesus Christ.

[A]

But then I also think raw milk is different because there isn't actually any, like, benefit to it.

[B]

Right. There's not a use case.

[A]

Yeah. The reported benefits are fake. Like people are lying. And then it just feels like it's in a category that's much closer. Just like driving without a seatbelt.

[B]

Yeah. Like, it is and it isn't. Right. Like it's a freedom issue. But you're like, sorry, you want the freedom to, I guess, drink things that make you sick.

[A]

Right. And also especially to give them to Your kids. Right, right. It's like there's also victims of this who are not making a choice. And there's a reason why, like if you want to smoke when you're over 18, you're smart enough to decide that that's the risk reward for you. But like, if kids are being given raw milk, those kids are not in charge of the decision.

[B]

Right. That is the hardest stop for me.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is like the fact that like so many people are getting raw milk under the misapprehension that it will prevent their kids from getting allergies in the process. Their kids are getting fucking diphtheria and like old timey ass diseases.

[A]

Because that also is where like regulation would come in that you're basically making a trade off. Okay. Regulating this does involve some like loss of freedom if you think about it purely philosophically, but also will save the lives of many children.

[B]

I thought that I would give our final word today to a food scientist named John Lucy, who was quoted by USA to Today quote, a lot of people just don't trust science anymore. But I don't even think this is science. I think a lot of it is just common sense. This is not making milk into an ultra processed food. I know. This is just heating it to 160.

[A]

Degrees for 15 seconds, you fucking weirdos.

[B]

It's so. It really is one of those things where I'm like, I feel like I'm living on another planet.

[A]

The most amazing thing is to me is that these people do not believe in bacteria, but they do believe that you can walk around a state fair and identify people with prenatal injuries.

[B]

Sa.