Transcript

A (0:11)

I'm so curious how you're gonna make a real episode out of this.

B (0:14)

I know we were talking yesterday and you were like, I don't know how this is an episode. And I was like, yeah, it's not just an episode. There's so much of it that I'm having a really hard time editing it down.

A (0:27)

I was at the Louvre with some people today, and I was like, I have to leave because I'm recording a podcast. They're like, what's it about? And I said, raw milk. And there was like this long sign. So they sort of cocked their heads like a golden retriever. They're like, raw milk. You gotta leave for that.

B (0:42)

You're doing.

A (0:42)

You're recording for, like, three hours on Raw Milk. I'm here instead of the Louvre tonight. Aubrey, you better make it. You better make it.

B (0:50)

He's a cultured, masculine man. All right.

A (0:52)

You're probably going to fact check this one.

B (0:54)

Oh, great.

A (0:54)

Welcome to Main's phase, the podcast that must be heated to 145 degrees for 30 minutes.

B (1:00)

It's shorter than that now, but yeah.

A (1:02)

I'm Michael Hobbs.

B (1:04)

I'm Aubrey Gordon. If you would like to support the show, you can do that@patreon.com maintenancephase or you can subscribe through Apple Podcast. It's the same audio content. Michael. Aubrey, I'm so amped.

A (1:18)

Just get into it. Just start. Start whatever you need to tell me. Go.

B (1:23)

So today we're talking about raw milk. I was gonna ask you if you've tracked the raw milk debate at all, and you were like, I don't think there's an episode there. So I think that might be my answer to how much you've track.

A (1:35)

I mean, we talked about this with the honey. The, like, blue zones honey shit that, like. Because pasteurization, like, I think people think it's like a science word, but all it means is, like, taking something up to a temperature and then, like, cooling it down to kill the bacteria. It's not like a big scary, like, quote unquote processing thing like the ultra processed foods. Whatever. It's like the most basic shit.

Summary

Maintenance Phase Podcast Summary

Episode: "Raw Milk"

Hosts: Aubrey Gordon & Michael Hobbes
Date: November 13, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Aubrey and Michael dive headlong into the world of raw milk: what it is, the history of pasteurization, the myths versus scientific reality, the resurgence of raw milk in wellness and right-wing circles, and the tangled political, social, and historical factors that keep this perennial public health issue in the headlines. The episode is a classic Maintenance Phase blend of myth-busting, sharp humor, and surprisingly fascinating history.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. What Is Raw Milk and Why Do People Care?

Definition and Process:
- Raw milk is simply milk that has not been pasteurized—i.e., not heated to kill dangerous bacteria.
- Pasteurization today is a quick process: raising milk to 160°F for 15 seconds. Kills a host of deadly pathogens including E. coli, salmonella, listeria, diphtheria, and tuberculosis.
- “Pasteurization is only heating a liquid to well below boiling temperatures in order to kill germs that can make you very sick.” — Aubrey [01:57]
Misconceptions:
- Many see pasteurization as “unnatural processing,” but Michael points out, “It’s as unnatural as me, like, applying heat to other foods to cook them.” [02:41]
Historical Use:
- Humans have been heating milk to kill germs for centuries, long before Louis Pasteur, with evidence in China and Japan as early as the 1100s.
- “It’s not like a Western concept.” — Aubrey [03:04]

2. Pasteurization Saves Lives: The Science and History

Pre-Pasteurization Dangers:
- Before modern sanitation, raw milk was a major vector for diseases such as tuberculosis—especially devastating to children.
  - Quote from the book Milk!:
  “Bovine tuberculosis, a disease found in cattle, is transmitted to humans through milk. It attacks the glands, intestines and bones. Children are particularly susceptible and are often kept in braces for years to keep their spines from becoming deformed.” — Aubrey quoting [05:14]
- “It’s such a miracle that it’s not a live issue anymore…yet we have all these grifters just being like, was that really good? Let’s bring it back.” — Michael [05:46]
Epidemiological Evidence:
- CDC review: Over a 13-year period, raw milk was linked to 150 times more outbreaks than pasteurized milk; states allowing raw milk had double the dairy-related foodborne illnesses compared to those that banned it. [06:14]
- Raw milk is a very small market, yet much riskier.

3. Nutrition Myths Debunked

Claim: Pasteurization supposedly makes milk less nutritious.
Reality:
- Systematic reviews indicate negligible vitamin loss (reduction in E, C, some Bs, and folate; slight increase in vitamin A). However, these vitamins are present in minuscule amounts in raw milk.
  - “A full pint of raw milk contains 0% of your vitamin C for the day.” — Aubrey [10:02]
  - “Vitamin E…raw milk gets you to 3%. Pasteurized milk gets you to 2%.” — Aubrey [10:11]
- “Surely losing out on some B12 is, like, worth it to not get sick.” — Michael [09:11]
Other Claims:
- Raw milk’s supposed probiotics mostly mean “pathogens that will make you sick.” [10:21]

4. History of Pasteurization and Raw Milk Policy

Pasteur and His Contemporaries:
- Pasteur developed the process mainly for alcohol, with milk pasteurization suggested later by others.
- Urbanization pooled milk from larger herds and mixed sources, compounding contamination risk.
Regulation Milestones:
- Early 1900s: Cities like New York and Chicago debated—and only slowly enacted—pasteurization mandates. Public health crusaders like Nathan Strauss led campaigns after harrowing child mortality statistics linked to raw milk:
  - “Between 1895 and 1897, while the 3,900 children were being fed supposedly safe raw milk, 1,509 of them died.” — Michael [20:08]
- “Swill milk” scandalized cities; newspaper rhetoric was downright brutal.
  - “Diseased libels upon the fair name of cows.” — Michael quoting 1858 NYT [17:54]
Industry Pushback and Consumer Tastes:
- Early resistance included complaints that pasteurization changed milk’s taste.
Modern Regulatory Landscape:
- By 1980s, most states highly restricted or banned raw milk sales, but the FDA only acted federally after major outbreaks and lawsuits, like California’s Altadena Dairy scandal. [24:03–27:09]
- Legal loopholes (milk clubs, herd shares, labeling as “pet food”) persist today.

5. Raw Milk Hype: Grifters, Advocacy, and Backlash

The Weston A. Price Foundation:
- Central “wellness” organization pushing animal fats, anti-vegetarianism, and raw milk (“REAL milk”); taps into wellness, tradwife, and alt-right milieus.
  - “It’s like the dumbest, woo-woo aunt…also with a ton of power.” — Michael [35:00]
- Arguments often blend nostalgia, anti-government rhetoric, and pseudoscience:
  - “Real milk…is an inherently safe food…contains numerous bioactive components that kill pathogens in the milk, prevent pathogen absorption... No other food…contains a built-in safety system like the one in raw milk.” — Michael quoting Weston A. Price [43:27]
- The foundation provides legal defense resources for raw milk producers, boosting farmers’ profiles and framing government regulation as persecution.
Notable Figures:
- Mark McAfee (Raw Farm USA): Serial violator of laws, selling raw milk as “pet food” and denying avian flu dangers.
  - “You may think I’m some kind of crazy person, but show me one person who’s ever gotten sick from raw milk. With avian flu, viruses don’t exist in raw milk. They die off quickly. Fearing viruses is ridiculous.” — McAfee [48:56]
- Amos Miller: Amish dairy farmer, refuses to get permits, heavily boosted as a “salt of the earth” persecution story and WAPF conference sponsor (where RFK Jr. keynoted). [53:04]

6. Modern Raw Milk Culture: Media, Conspiracism, and Wellness Grift

Political and Cultural Alignment:
- Recent years have seen an odd coalition of left-hippie wellness folks, right-wing contrarians, con artists, and libertarian populists rally behind raw milk—a la anti-vaccine movements.
- “Joe Rogan says he’s a raw milk drinker… switches pretty quickly from raw milk to whole milk as the language he uses. So I think he doesn’t know what we’re talking about.” — Aubrey [54:23]
- “Turning Point USA sold a shirt that said ‘Got Raw Milk’…it did have an illustration of a bull on.” — Michael [55:09]
- Gwyneth Paltrow, Goop herself, admits to using raw milk in coffee while acknowledging the pseudoscience behind it. [55:54]
Market Realities:
- Raw milk is still a niche but growing market (21% increase in 2024—but from a tiny base). [07:48]
- Small and family farms, squeezed out of mass dairy, sometimes embrace raw milk as a prestige, differentiating product—akin to selling in glass bottles or labeling as “GMO free.”
Pseudo-Scientific “Farm Effect”:
- Claims that kids raised on (possibly) raw milk have fewer allergies are based on extremely thin, misinterpreted evidence from European farm studies—“even for them, this is thin.” — Michael [60:39]
Echo Chamber and Social Media:
- Tradwives, Gab, Rumble, Infowars actively share raw milk hype and anti-pasteurization conspiracy theories.
- “Raw milk dovetails really nicely with a number of other right wing projects and conspiracies.” — Aubrey [61:28]

7. Should Raw Milk Be Legal? Public Risk vs. Personal Freedom

The Regulatory Dilemma:
- Michael: “Raw milk is different because there isn’t actually any, like, benefit to it. The reported benefits are fake. Like, people are lying. And then it just feels like it’s in a category that’s much closer to just driving without a seatbelt.” [63:16]
- “So many people are getting raw milk under the misapprehension that it will prevent their kids from getting allergies…their kids are getting fucking diphtheria and, like, old timey ass diseases.” — Aubrey [63:59]
Kids as Involuntary Victims:
- The hosts underscore that children rarely choose what they ingest, raising the stakes for regulation.
  - “If kids are being given raw milk, those kids are not in charge of the decision.” — Michael [63:41]
Final Thoughts:
- “[This] isn’t even science. I think a lot of it is just common sense. This is not making milk into an ultra processed food…just heating it to 160 degrees for 15 seconds, you fucking weirdos.” — John Lucy, food scientist, quoted by Aubrey [64:51]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On the “naturalness” of pasteurization:

“It’s as unnatural as me, like, applying heat to other foods to cook them.” — Michael [02:41]
On raw milk’s risk:

“That’s crazy, because also raw milk is not that big of a market. So if they’re having these huge outbreaks, that means that it’s a small number of people but much more likely to get sick.” — Michael [06:51]
On the claims of nutrition loss:

“Vitamin E…raw milk gets you to 3%. Pasteurized milk gets you to 2%.” — Aubrey [10:11] “You should be worrying less about vitamin E than you should about fucking tuberculosis.” — Michael [10:11]
Satirizing the grift:

“By probiotics, I mean tuberculosis, diphtheria.” — Michael [10:36] “One of those things. One of the more popular workarounds is something, something called a milk club, which is essentially like an underground railroad for listeria.” — Aubrey [29:56]
On contemporary marketing/fads:

“You could use the paleo bullshit language as a way to sell heating milk to kill germs.” — Aubrey [32:56] “Just call it deliberate sunshine milk. The milk has gotten red light therapy.” — Michael [33:17]
On the cyclical nature of raw milk trends:

“It becomes a circular thing where, like, then you get the stories where, like, ‘oh, the movement for raw milk is getting bigger’…and then that feeds into the next round.” — Michael [53:51]
On the ridiculousness of anti-pasteurization rhetoric:

“It’s not even like, do you believe in bacteria? It’s like, walk me through what you think milk is.” — Michael [55:24]

Timeline of Key Segments

00:11–03:14 — Introduction, raw milk basics, pasteurization explained
04:00–06:00 — Pathogens in raw milk & long-term health risks
06:14–08:29 — Data on outbreaks, consumption rates, market size
09:08–10:47 — Nutrition myths busted
10:47–16:44 — History of milk sanitation and early pasteurization
16:44–20:51 — Turn-of-the-century campaigns and “swill milk” horrors
21:02–28:01 — Regulation, certification, and Altadena Dairy disasters
29:39–34:43 — Legal loopholes, milk clubs, herd shares, and modern state/federal law
34:43–43:27 — Rise of Weston A. Price Foundation, wellness movement, legal defense
43:27–48:56 — Raw milk activism, farmer “martyrs,” outrageous advocacy
54:05–57:23 — Modern influencers, Goop, political champions, and conspiracism
58:15–62:26 — Economic realities, “farm effect,” social media echo chamber, tradwife aesthetics
62:33–65:01 — Should raw milk be legal? Regulation, freedom, children’s rights
64:51 — Final word from food scientist John Lucy

Tone and Language

The hosts oscillate between exasperation and dark humor, with sharp skepticism toward pseudoscience and irony-laden, sometimes profane, asides.
Michael often adopts a sarcastic, incredulous tone (“Just say fucking birds aren't real”), while Aubrey excels at deadpan readings of both scientific literature and crank manifestos.
Pop culture references (“The milk has gotten red light therapy…on your balls”), self-deprecating jokes, and playful banter abound, always in service of demystifying junk science.

Takeaway

Ultimately, the episode is a thorough, often hilarious, and occasionally chilling reminder that public health measures like pasteurization exist for a reason, and that “natural” does not mean “safe.” The modern raw milk craze, like many wellness fads, is less about nutrition and more about nostalgia, rebellion, and, all too frequently, opportunistic grifting.

“A lot of people just don’t trust science anymore. But I don’t even think this is science. I think a lot of it is just common sense.” — John Lucy, quoted at [64:51]