Growing Up Richard Simmons

Summary

Maintenance Phase: Richard Simmons Episode Summary

Release Date: October 25, 2024

Hosts: Aubrey Gordon & Michael Hobbes
Podcast Description: Debunking the junk science behind health fads, wellness scams, and nonsensical nutrition advice.

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Introduction

In the October 25, 2024 episode of Maintenance Phase, hosts Aubrey Gordon and Michael Hobbes delve deep into the life and legacy of the beloved fitness guru Richard Simmons. Moving beyond his exuberant public persona, the hosts explore the more complex and often tragic aspects of Simmons's life, drawing from his memoir Still Hungry After All These Years and various interviews.

Early Impressions and Public Persona

The episode begins with Michael Hobbes sharing his initial perception of Richard Simmons:
“All I know about Richard Simmons is like, sad things, like melancholy things...” [00:11]

Aubrey Gordon counters this by highlighting how Simmons was often perceived as a "manic pixie dream gay" figure, despite his never publicly addressing his sexual orientation. The hosts emphasize the contrast between the vibrant, high-energy Simmons seen on TV and the more vulnerable individual revealed through personal accounts.

Family Background and Childhood Struggles

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on Simmons's upbringing in New Orleans:

• Parentage and Early Trauma: Richard Simmons, born Milton Teagle Simmons, faced a tumultuous childhood. His father, Leonard Simmons Sr., a former professional emcee, displayed volatile behavior, including burning family photo albums when Simmons's mother, Shirley May Simmons, announced her pregnancy. Aubrey shares a poignant excerpt from the memoir:
  “My father made all the decisions in his house... Shirley quickly went out into the yard, picked up a stick, and poked through the fire. She managed to salvage some of the photos.” [11:56]

• Religious Upbringing: Raised Catholic, Simmons attended Catholic school despite his parents' non-practicing stance. This cultural Catholicism instilled a sense of shame and conflict within him, particularly around his emerging identity:
  “I think it was weird that he and his brother went to Catholic school...Why do we go to Mass but you don't go to Mass?” [17:03]

• Struggles with Weight and Bullying: From a young age, Simmons grappled with his weight, facing harsh diets enforced by his parents and relentless bullying at school. Aubrey recounts Simmons's first Weight Watchers experience, marked by public shaming:
  “I knew from past experience that the system and reward and punishment probably wasn't going to work for me.” [34:43]

Escaping to Italy and Brief Acting Career

Seeking an escape from his troubled home life, Simmons moved to Italy to pursue his passion for art. During his time abroad, he made a cameo in Federico Fellini's Satyricon and engaged in various acting roles, including quirky commercials:

• Unexpected Opportunities: Aubrey reveals how Simmons stumbled into acting:
  “He thought he was going to be cast for his personality, but ended up doing minor roles like a dancing meatball in commercials.” [37:03]

• Cameo Appearances: The hosts discuss Simmons's brief and often unrecognizable roles, highlighting the stark contrast between his Italian persona and his later American image.

The Turning Point: Opening Slimming Clubs

Upon returning to the United States, Simmons faced continued struggles with his weight and self-image. A pivotal moment occurred when he received a hurtful note:
“Richard, you're very funny, but fat people die young. Please don't die, dude.” [40:34]

This catalyzed his decision to create a supportive environment for others facing similar challenges. Despite initial setbacks, including being rejected from Gilda's exercise classes due to his gender, Simmons persevered:

• Founding Slimming Clubs: Inspired by his own battles, Simmons launched his first gym, initially named the Anatomy Asylum. The gym emphasized inclusivity, welcoming both gay men and fat women, two demographics often marginalized in fitness spaces:
  “The gym takes off and it becomes a chain...where people like you can lose weight, look good, and feel great.” [59:17]

• Building the Empire: Through relentless energy and an empathetic approach, Simmons's fitness empire grew into 72 clubs across 13 cities. His message was clear:
  “You don’t have to look like you already go to the gym to belong there.” [56:10]

Personal Struggles and Internal Conflicts

Despite his outward positivity, Simmons grappled with deep-seated personal issues:

• Eating Disorders: His memoir reveals Simmons engaged in extreme weight loss methods during his youth, including severe caloric restriction and diet pill abuse. Aubrey highlights the dangerous path Simmons took:
  “He was just straight up wild, unchecked, happily embraced anorexia.” [42:45]

• Isolation and Lack of Reciprocal Relationships: Simmons often felt isolated, unable to form meaningful, reciprocal relationships. Michael notes:
  “He has this feeling that he can’t form relationships with people that aren't around, kind of rescuing them or being a support for them.” [35:19]

Reflection and Legacy

In reflecting on Simmons's journey, both hosts express a mix of empathy and sadness:

• Cultural Oversight: Aubrey admits feeling embarrassed that such a prominent figure was largely misunderstood and that the culture at large failed to acknowledge his deeper struggles:
  “It made me sad that I had to go back and read this book from 25 years ago to hear from anyone, anywhere that he actually had a really rough time growing up.” [60:28]

• Unfulfilled Potential: There's a sense of loss over the person Simmons might have been had he received the support he needed during his formative years.

Notable Quotes

1. Michael Hobbs on Simmons's TV Persona:
   “People who act like this oftentimes are covering up for something.” [06:30]

2. Aubrey Gordon on Family Dynamics:
   “The way Simmons and his brother were treated by their parents created a storm cloud over his upbringing.” [14:15]

3. Richard’s Turning Point Note:
   “Richard, you're very funny, but fat people die young. Please don't die, dude.” [40:34]

4. Hosts on Slimming Clubs' Inclusivity:
   “You don’t have to look like you already go to the gym to belong there.” [56:10]

Conclusion

This episode of Maintenance Phase presents a multifaceted portrait of Richard Simmons, challenging the simplistic view of him as merely a cheerful fitness icon. Through detailed exploration of his early life, personal struggles, and the creation of his fitness empire, Aubrey Gordon and Michael Hobbes shed light on the complexities behind Simmons's enduring legacy. The hosts leave listeners with a profound understanding of the man behind the persona, urging a more compassionate and nuanced appreciation of public figures.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections as per the request.

Transcript

[Michael Hobbs]

All I know about Richard Simmons is like, sad things, like melancholy things, but I'm trying not to have like a melancholy tagline.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Wow, you really got surprised by this podcast I've been planning for like a month.

[Michael Hobbs]

We keep pushing back. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh. Well, this one's bad, but whatever. Uh, welcome to Maintenance Phase, the podcast that thinks tank tops and short shorts are appropriate for any weather.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, I like that one.

[Michael Hobbs]

It was not very clever, but it is accurate.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I'm Aubrey Gordon.

[Michael Hobbs]

I'm Michael Hopps.

[Aubrey Gordon]

If you would like to support the show, you can do [e-mail] maintenancephase you can also get bonus episodes through Apple Podcasts. It's the same audio content.

[Michael Hobbs]

And if you live in Australia or New Zealand, you can see Aubrey in other ways.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yes, Jeannie Finley's documentary your Fat Friend about yours truly is in theaters now in Australia and New Zealand. And as soon as it leaves theaters, it will be joining Doc Play. For all the details on that and all of the screenings, you can go to yrfatfriendfilm.com or there's a handy dandy link for you in the show. Notes.

[Michael Hobbs]

Aubrey downunder.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Something, something lesbian. Joe.

[Michael Hobbs]

Something, something.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Michael. Today we're talk about Richard Simmons.

[Michael Hobbs]

We haven't done a good old influencer episode in a while. Just like, here's a person.

[Aubrey Gordon]

How do you remember Richard Simmons?

[Michael Hobbs]

I think I mostly remember him from late night TV appearances where he would show up on like Jay Leno to talk about stuff or I was really into those, like, Best of Johnny Carson tapes that you could get. He showed up on Johnny Carson a million times. I've seen all of those like 4,000 times. Him and like Sam Kinison are like the people I modeled my personality after. The thing is, I don't think he was like that great of a presence. And I think looking back, I think a lot of those appearances were probably like low key, pretty homophobic.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh, baby.

[Michael Hobbs]

And then I listened to the podcast about him, Dan Tabersky's, I thought, excellent, but like, complicated podcast about Richard Simmons. And then he emerged to me as kind of like a more tragic figure.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Well, first of all, those appearances were not low key homophobic.

[Michael Hobbs]

Were they high key homophobic?

[Aubrey Gordon]

One of the recurring bits that Richard Simmons would. That people would call Richard Simmons onto their show to do would be to like be like, you're gonna be a guest on the show. And then they would hide cameras in his dressing room and do things to scare him.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, wow.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So that he would like scream and Jump up and down.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, in an effeminate way.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah. I mean, I think I remember him the way a lot of people remember him, which is honestly like, I think societally we just kind of treated him like a manic pixie dream gay, despite the fact that he never addressed his own sexual orientation. Right. I'll say. I just read as much Richard Simmons reporting as I could get my hands on, which is not a ton of reporting. Right. Including the recent wave of eulogies, including missing Richard Simmons. All of those were sort of written in the way that you and I are talking about remembering him. Right. Which is these sort of hazy fond memories.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Really light on details. And none of them referenced his memoir, Still Hungry after all these years. And when I read his memoir, it was 100% things I had not heard.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, really?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Okay, so this is part one of a two parter. Today we're going to talk about Richard Simmons life sort of before he became a household name because there is a lot there. So today is sort of about the messages he took in and next time is sort of like what he decided to do with those messages and the messages that he put out.

[Michael Hobbs]

Wait, I just thought of a better tagline.

[Aubrey Gordon]

What?

[Michael Hobbs]

His whole thing was like sweating to the oldies, right? Yes, that's what we call it when people exercise while listening to maintenance phase because we're old and they're doing, they're doing exercise.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So many emails from people who are five to 10 years older than us.

[Michael Hobbs]

Look, I am 42, I can do this.

[Aubrey Gordon]

A heads up before we get into it, this story has some really dark moments. So we're going to be talking about anti fatness, we're going to be talking about eating disorders, we're going to be talking about drug abuse, physical assault. So just like basically buckle up.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So we're gonna start out with Richard Simmons as you might remember him. So here's a little refresh. I'm gonna send you a link.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[C]

Wow, what a beautiful, healthy looking audience.

[Michael Hobbs]

His energy. Richard.

[C]

This is insane.

[Aubrey Gordon]

When I heard that this is your 59th video. 59 video.

[C]

59Th DVD. Wow, that's amazing. Swen to the Goldie's Five. I know, but hey, what are you sitting down for? They thought it was like you thought we were serving something.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He's gonna. Well, first of all tell people. Everybody has, you know, I think aspirations to get in better shape.

[C]

What advice do you have for people? Number one, love yourself, have a lot of self worth. Number two, lower your calories and Watch your portions. And number one, move those buns. Can I tell everyone that?

[Aubrey Gordon]

What?

[C]

Can I tell everyone?

[Michael Hobbs]

Mama.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Mama talking to see.

[C]

Mama wants to hear. Mama wants to see Mama. Gypsy. Anyway, it was from Gypsy.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I know, I know we can.

[C]

Do you know Gypsy?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yes.

[C]

Anyway, everyone, the audience is getting my new sweat and fire.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

This is the energy that Richard Simmons was operating with all of the time.

[Michael Hobbs]

This is also the energy that Ellen was operating on, where she's kind of like, let's get this over with. She's sort of officially joking, but you can tell in her face that she's like, this is annoying the shit out of me.

[Aubrey Gordon]

She hates it. She hates.

[Michael Hobbs]

Shut up, Richard.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So clearly she hates everything about it.

[Michael Hobbs]

I know.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And I think that's maybe the greatest indictment of her yet, is like, so you don't like Richard Simmons?

[Michael Hobbs]

I know the funny. He's such a ray of sunshine. But also because he's so loud, because it's sort of so schticky, you can find it grating. Yeah. This is projecting based on everything else I know about him. But people who act like this oftentimes are covering up for something. To have this much energy and to be this on all the time just seems like it would be so much work.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah. There was a quote from Billy Eichner in one of the write ups after Richard Simmons passed away. He was very straightforwardly just like, yeah, Richard Simmons goes in the long line of gay men who made it through by making themselves the joke. He's like, yeah, kind of.

[Michael Hobbs]

People come up with strategies to fit in. And you're like 12 when you're coming up with these strategies, Right. Because you realize you're gay and you're like, oh, fuck, I have to do something about this. And oftentimes establish patterns that then are very hard to break. The way that you fit in in social situations is like the habits and the defense mechanisms that you developed by being in the closet. And so I wonder if Richard Simmons started doing this to compensate for something and then just, like, couldn't break the habit.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah. I mean, I think part of the way that you make it through is by telling stories about yourself, like, fully concocted. But it's also based on, as you're saying, your kid brain. So it's like, as convincing as two kids in a trench coat. Yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

This was absolutely me in middle school. Guys were like, ooh, she's hot. I'm like, yeah, I want to poke her boobs. I want to play her boobs like bongo drums.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So Richard Simmons, for the uninitiated, built a fitness empire in the US he had a chain of gyms at one point.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He had 22 DVDs and 38 home videos, including Sit Tight, which I think is kind of a great name.

[Michael Hobbs]

Not going to make a gay joke. I'm not going to make a gay joke. Joke. I'm going to be. I'm going to be very mature on this podcast. I'm going to stay very classy.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Get ready, because he made Sit Tight dance your pants off, and no ifs, ands, or buts.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, that one's actually pretty wholesome. That's very. That's very wholesome.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He had one vinyl record with a bunch of ballads on it that he sang, and he was an okay singer.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay, fair enough.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He also made one absolutely incredible music video, and you and I are going to watch it right now.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, no. Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Short, long, straight up, curly.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, my God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Get something cute. Get something girly. Short, long, straight up girly.

[C]

Get something cute.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Get something girly. Oh.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh. Just look at you.

[C]

I think you need a new hair.

[Michael Hobbs]

Do something. An Afro Buzz.

[C]

Got a French twist. Pick out a sty that will give you a lift.

[Michael Hobbs]

All right. No, Shut it down. Shut it down. Shut it down. Shut it down. We're stopping this episode. We're done. We're done for the day. I'm not watching Richard Simmons rap.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Look, I don't know if you can tell. This was recorded in the 2010s.

[Michael Hobbs]

I don't want to make fun of this man, Aubrey. We just. Tragic figure.

[Aubrey Gordon]

No, it's like, I really genuinely enjoy this song and have been listening to it recreationally. There are a bunch of stories about later in his career, about Richard Simmons showing up to his gym to lead classes in drag. Oh, and he does some drag in this video.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

To me, this feels like we're getting closer to how he saw himself.

[Michael Hobbs]

I love that you're trying to recast this as, like, an act of self actualization when it's a music video called Hair do and he's rapping.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Get something cute. Get something girly.

[Michael Hobbs]

The thing is, I have exactly the same hair as him. Any. Any jokes about his hair? Off limits.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Michael, are you ready for story time?

[Michael Hobbs]

I know this man, but I don't truly know this man. So let's do it.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Richard Simmons was actually born Milton Teagle Simmons.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

In the French Quarter in New Orleans in 1948.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He was born to Leonard Simmons Senior and Shirley May Simmons. His father was actually a professional Emcee before he was born.

[Michael Hobbs]

So he has a background in rapping.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And his mother was a fan dancer.

[Michael Hobbs]

What does that mean?

[Aubrey Gordon]

You know, the ladies who would dance like burlesque with big feather fans to cover up their bodies, like, whoa, salacious.

[Michael Hobbs]

I know about that. Theoretically. Not personally, but yes.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Some sort of cracks started to emerge pretty early on in their marriage. So when Shirley became pregnant, Leonard decided that he needed to quit show business. According to his memoir, the day that his mother told his father she was pregnant, his father started gathering up photo albums and headshots and publicity photos, sort of anything from their showbiz careers. He gathered it all up in the backyard and burned it. Oh, this is a quote from Still Hungry after all these years.

[Michael Hobbs]

He says this bonfire was not to be discussed. My father made all the decisions in his house. My mother watched from the kitchen window as he tore apart albums and tossed pages into the fire. With the fire still raging, he strode back into the house, not saying a word. He walked right past my mother and into the bathroom, shutting the door. While he was cleaning up, Shirley quickly went out into the yard, picked up a stick, and poked through the fire. She managed to salvage some of the photos. Awesome. Quickly, she trimmed the burnt edges from the photos and then hid them away, never saying a word again about the whole affair. So that's how I came to have no family history. Oh, God, that's so sad.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So clearly this is like a third hand story. Right. Presumably his mother told him, and then he told his ghostwriter, and here it is in book form. Right. He was also, I should say, he was very open about his books being written by ghost writers. He was like, I'm not a good writer.

[Michael Hobbs]

He's more of a rapper. He's more of a Sugar Hill Gang type of figure in America.

[Aubrey Gordon]

My guess here is that there is a kernel of truth to it or that it's just straightforwardly a real story. It's a really. It would be a weird one to make up for cloth. Right. And it's painting a picture that resonates with how Richard saw his father. Right. Which is kind of a storm cloud of a dude.

[Michael Hobbs]

And also, when you have mercurial presences like that in a family, oftentimes the rest of the family adjusts to avoid these outbursts. So I can imagine a family based around not getting these weird blowups from his dad.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, absolutely. Things are sort of engineered toward. Don't make dad mad.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So his dad quits his job as an emcee. Different places report different jobs. For him. But the most common ones are that sometimes he worked in a thrift shop, but most of the time it seems he was just unemployed. So his dad is a storm cloud of a dude in the 40s and 50s who is not providing for his family.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right. That's also a cause of volatility often.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, totally. If you have weird stuff about masculinity, especially in this era.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And you're not working and supporting your family, like, that's only going to make that stuff gnarlier.

[Michael Hobbs]

Dudes are weird about it.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Dudes are weird about it. After her years as a fan dancer, Shirley became a cosmetic salesperson, which also seems fitting for a parent of Richard Simmons. Oh, first I was in burlesque, and then I started selling makeup. You're like, yeah, did you invent the bedazzler also?

[Michael Hobbs]

Right. We all become a combination of our parents. And I think Richard did too.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He had one older brother, Lenny, who Richard refers to as Mr. Perfect and Mr. Business.

[Michael Hobbs]

Those are like, guess who characters. Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It's really clear that Richard and Lenny loved each other, but that Richard felt really pitted against Lenny. Richard thought that in his parents eyes, he was always doing the wrong thing and Lenny was always doing the right thing. It's that sort of sibling dynamic.

[Michael Hobbs]

Does he talk in the memoir about realizing he was gay or is this all under the surface?

[Aubrey Gordon]

He never discusses his sexual orientation in the memoir.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, my God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So, like, listen, the backdrop of this story is that Richard Simmons rise to fame almost exactly mirrors the onset of the AIDS epidemic.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

You're going on Carson, you're going on Letterman, you're going on all these shows, and you have this wide appeal coming out. Puts you squarely in the middle of Pat Buchanan's culture wars. Right.

[Michael Hobbs]

But then do you get the sense that Richard Simmons, like, knew that he was gay and made a business decision not to talk about it, or was he in denial about the fact that he was gay?

[Aubrey Gordon]

I don't have any sense of any of it.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

According to some reports, he did have a long term partner.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That is the person who was sort of like saying that his housekeeper had kidnapped him in the missing Richard Simmons era.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Right. So, like, it's just all fraught. It's all unreliable narrators. It's all other people speaking for him. The thing that I feel really dead set on in this episode is Richard Zimmons speaking for Richard Zimmons.

[Michael Hobbs]

There's no chance that he's actually just an effeminate heterosexual guy, is there?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Or is there there's a YouTube video of outtakes and, like, pre record from an interview he did at one point in, like, the 80s or something, where somebody said something about out of the closet. And he was like, well, I've been out of the closet for a long time.

[Michael Hobbs]

No, he hasn't.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And I was like, you have not.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

But also, you sort of like, I see what he's saying, right?

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Especially in the 80s, people were not being like, well, actually, he hasn't addressed it.

[Michael Hobbs]

I personally think Richard Simmons probably could have come out. I mean, everyone kind of knew already. But also, it's like, the psychology of this is so complex.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I mean, this brings us to the next point in the story, which is that he and his brother were raised Catholic.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, good. To add that layer in there, he.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Talks about thinking that it was weird that he and his brother went to Catholic school. They dressed up and went to Mass every week. Lenny was an altar boy, but neither of them had ever been baptized. And their parents never attended religious services or talked about religion.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, so they're, like, culturally Catholic, but not, like, actually beliefs. They don't believe stuff.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So Richard sort of asked his parents and pressed about it and was like, why do we go to Mass but you don't go to Mass? Why do we go to a Catholic school but you're not. We don't seem to be Catholic. And his dad was like, look, it's a good school, and it's three blocks away. It's where you go to school. Shut up about it.

[Michael Hobbs]

Look, we want to instill in you a weird sense of constant shame.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, yeah. We can tell how gay you are, and we want you to feel bad about it forever.

[Michael Hobbs]

We are. This is a subsidy to your future.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Therapist in high school. Richard actually takes the plunge and fully converts to Catholicism. He gets baptized, he does the whole thing. He, at that point, strongly considers becoming a priest or even joining a monastery.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, that's like a thing for gay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

People back then, 100%. In his memoir, he says that he thought about becoming a priest because he, quote, likes the outfits.

[Michael Hobbs]

God, Richard, you're not making this easy. We're trying to be sensitive to you and the way that you want it to be discussed, but it really seems like you want to tell the audience something and you're not telling them.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It isn't until after he converts that he meets some cousins who live far away, and they start talking about these bat mitzvahs that they've been having. And Richard is like, what's a bat mitzvah? And his cousins are like, oh, it's a Jewish thing, because we're a Jewish family.

[Michael Hobbs]

Wait, what?

[Aubrey Gordon]

You're Jewish?

[Michael Hobbs]

Wait, really? He's secretly Jewish and he didn't know.

[Aubrey Gordon]

His dad was raised Methodist and his mom was Jewish. Oh, and in Judaism, if your mom is Jewish, you are Jewish. His parents never told them he fascinating through the grapevine that they were Jewish. The title of the chapter where he tells this story is A Catholic. Oi. That's. That is in fact the chapter title.

[Michael Hobbs]

I like this man. I like this man.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So this is sort of like the tone and tenor of life at home. We're not talking about things, we're not showing affection. We're not letting you in on what's happening. He talks about his parents not really showing affection, even to each other.

[Michael Hobbs]

Man, they really did lean into the Catholicism, didn't they?

[Aubrey Gordon]

It's a really odd and sort of cold sounding household. To wit, Richard had asthma.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh.

[Aubrey Gordon]

In his memoir, he writes that he had asthma at a time when people didn't really understand it. Right. So we're Talking about the 50s and some people didn't even fully believe in it. Of course, according to Richard Simmons, one of those people was his dad.

[Michael Hobbs]

Nice. So he didn't get like an inhaler and stuff.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Quote. Well, my father didn't believe in all this asthma medicine. He secretly thought that my asthma would get better if I weren't such a brat.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, my God. It's always the same thing.

[Aubrey Gordon]

My dad also tended to be his own doctor. No matter what was wrong with you, he felt that it could be cured with one of the four remedies from his medicine cabinet.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, no. Oh, no.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Camphor phenique, cod liver oil, calamine lotion or mercurochrome. Oh, that's all you needed?

[Michael Hobbs]

I thought he was going to say the carnivore diet. We'd really go full circle.

[Aubrey Gordon]

You didn't. You didn't think we go full circle on mercurochrome. So his relationship with his dad sounded like, rough in a really deep way initially, I was going to say strained, but, like, that would be an improvement.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So I'm sending you another quote from his memoir.

[Michael Hobbs]

When I tried to one up him, I was punished. This happened a lot when my mother was away. His method of punishment was perfect. He just ignored you. It was the punishment of silence. Very effective for a child who craves attention. You didn't exist. He didn't do your laundry. He didn't set a place at the table for you. Milton doesn't live here anymore. He had a short fuse, and if it went off, his words could be like daggers, cloaked in the most incredible vocabulary. His temper had style rather than being afraid of him. I wanted to see that temper in action and explore how I could twist it. So I'd push just to get him going. Oh, man. So he's just, like, trying to get any form of attention he can.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He's just trying to get a reaction. And his dad is like, that not setting a place at the table for you is, like, chilling. Yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

Brutal.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I also appreciate about this quote that he lifts up his response to it where he's like, oh, yeah, then I made it worse. Then I would go in and be like, what else can I get him to do? Right. So there's another little vignette in the book about his father ignoring him completely. Until Richard just starts singing show tunes at the table.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, man.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Until his father finally has to acknowledge him, even if it's just by being like, hey, stop it.

[Michael Hobbs]

That makes so much of his public Persona make sense. Yeah. Because it's like he's just trying to get your attention, and he's trying to get you to look at him.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He's trying to annoy his way into your heart. Yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

And his dad probably gave him his first ever Ellen face.

[Aubrey Gordon]

One more thing about his dad. At one point in his childhood, his mother was rushed to the hospital, and it turned out that she had an ulcer. And they all go to the hospital together. They're in the waiting room, and his dad immediately tears into him and says that Richard is the reason that his mom is sick.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

According to the memoir, he screamed at Richard, it's not Lenny. It's you. I'll spell it out for you. M, I, L, T, O, N. No way.

[Michael Hobbs]

Jesus Christ.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And then Richard turns it around on his dad and is like, no, you're the one who aggravates her. She's stressed out because she has to work all the time. Why don't you get a job? He says to his dad.

[Michael Hobbs]

Choke on a C O, C K dad.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So things were tough with his dad, good with his mom. He loved his mom so much. Really tough with his dad. And they're tough at school, too. He's growing up in Louisiana in the 50s, and he is not a Louisiana in the 50s kind of guy.

[Michael Hobbs]

He's more of a Portland in the 2010s kind of guy. More than 20, 24.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He's got a huge personality. He's got big curly hair. He's super theatrical. He's fat at the time. He's left handed.

[Michael Hobbs]

What?

[Aubrey Gordon]

And he talks in the memoir about trying to correct every single one of those things.

[Michael Hobbs]

He's trying to be a silent mask Northpaw, 100%. He's looking for an extremely specific kind of conversion therapy.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He is desperate to fit in, and he is painfully aware that he fails to fit in with his family, and he also fails to fit in with his peers.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right, right, right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Those experiences of difference are most acute for him around his fatness. That difference plays out at home. He goes to the doctor when he's in grade school and the pediatrician gives him a lecture about weight loss and puts him on a diet. The way that he describes that meeting felt so familiar to me. That you're like, sitting in a doctor's office with this sort of authority figure that's not just an authority over you, but is also an authority to your parents, and they're reporting to your parent that your body is a failure.

[Michael Hobbs]

Also, on top of everything else he has to be insecure about and he's getting shitted on for. It's like, oh, throw fatness in there too. It's just like, so much for one little guy to deal with.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And again, this is all happening before he's like, 10.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So at that doctor's visit, the doctor hands him a photocopied piece of paper that lays out a diet for him to follow.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, God, it's gonna be bad, isn't it?

[Aubrey Gordon]

You wanna hear the diet? Do you have any guesses about what the diet is?

[Michael Hobbs]

Isn't it gonna be some Scarsdale bullshit where it's like, eat three blueberries in a bowl and then like, salted ice cubes for lunch and then go jogging for dessert or something?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Salted ice cubes is too light, but three blueberries is too heavy.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, my God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Okay, breakfast. One slice of dry wheat toast, a poached egg, and quote, a beverage they don't really specify. And that seems like a real thing.

[Michael Hobbs]

That's kind of weird. Yeah, yeah. So milkshake is fine. Right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Lunch is 3 ounces of tuna that's been packed in water, drained, and then dressed just with lemon juice.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, that's like the rocks diet. Ugh.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And two slices of rye crisp, in case that wasn't dry enough for you. Your snack is one apple, and your dinner is three ounces of lean meat and one cup of dark green vegetables. And again, a beverage.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah. God, it's like a YouTube challenge. It's like, for dinner, eat six saltines. And then afterwards, fold a piece of paper more than eight times.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So I looked at his diet and did a little rough estimate on the calories. If your beverages are water, this adds up to 588 calories for the whole day.

[Michael Hobbs]

That's like prisoner of war rations.

[Aubrey Gordon]

At this point. The Minnesota starvation study had already happened, and that was at 1570.

[Michael Hobbs]

Leaving it up to his parents to enforce this, I guess, which then just contributes to the bad relationship with his dad.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Well, he also talks about sitting down to eat with the whole rest of his family, and they're eating all of their normal dinner stuff. Oh, God.

[Michael Hobbs]

And he's got, like, a little bowl.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Of tuna with his sad little bowl of tuna. Yeah, yeah. So he starts the diet. Food is terrible, and he hates it. So he starts quietly feeding it to their dog under the table.

[Michael Hobbs]

That just means he's eating even less.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yes. And he starts just skipping meals. And the more weight he loses, the prouder his mom is of him. So he instantly gets the message that no one cares how you lose weight. It's just that you lose weight.

[Michael Hobbs]

I mean, it's bad for you at any age. But it's like, to be doing this at this important developmental time is so dangerous and scary. I have nothing to say throughout this whole episode other than, like, that's bad. Poor guy. I'm contributing nothing.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So that difference around his size shows up for him in a big way at school. He talks about arriving at school on the first day and being like, everyone here is thin and everyone here is staring at me.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He also talks about a kind of constant casual bullying of kids just being like, hey, fatso. And that kind of thing. He learns to deal with it by leaning into the fat joke. So when people are like, hey, Fatso, can you even make it to the end of the block? He'd, like, start wheezing, like, asthma style wheezing. And then he'd be like, no, I can't.

[Michael Hobbs]

I'm not okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Like, he would, like, be like, you're so right. This is how out of shape I am.

[Michael Hobbs]

God. So he's got the gay compensatory stuff and the fat compensatory stuff. So he's, like, establishing all these really harmful patterns.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It's kind of the same skill set that he developed with his dad. Right. Which is just like, you just go over the top with it. You go. When they go hard, you go harder.

[Michael Hobbs]

I'm imagining, like, maintenance phase. Listeners who saw, like, oh, they're doing a Richard Simmons episode now. Just sitting in their car, staring into middle distance. Like, oh, God, I'm sad. I'm so sad about something that happened, like, 60 years ago.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I told you. So at this point when this happens, Richard's friends are all girls. Yeah. And they figure that if he isn't fat, this won't happen. Which is like, rookie mistake. Right. So they all raid their mom's medicine cabinets and bring in various diet pills.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, no. Which was like fucking meth back then.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Right. He doesn't name the pills, but he does describe taking a bunch of different colors of diet pills. This was a thing in the 60s in particular. There was a huge boom in quote, unquote diet pills. And they were sometimes called rainbow pills.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh.

[Aubrey Gordon]

There was very little information and research into their safety at this point. But pill mills started to pop up, just fully walk in clinics.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Where patients would come in and be prescribed a quote, unquote rainbow of pills that were supposedly, like, bespoke just for them. And the patients would get a consult and a prescription, usually a few prescriptions to be filled at a compounding pharmacy. And the appeal, the sort of selling point, was that it was a medical solution and it was fully customized. Peter Cohen, a professor at Harvard Medical School, told the Smithsonian, quote, what they were really doing was selling stimulants combined with other medications to counteract the side effects of the stimulants. Oh, so all they're doing is giving you amphetamines and then things to make the amphetamines less amphetamine Y also.

[Michael Hobbs]

Did I. Okay, maybe we'll keep this. Maybe we won't. Did I tell you I once took one of my dad's antidepressants because I thought antidepressants were like, happy pills? I was in seventh grade.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh, no.

[Michael Hobbs]

I was like, oh, if he takes them for depression, then it'll make me extra happy. So I took it. But then it turned out they weren't antidepressants. They were for his insomnia.

[Aubrey Gordon]

You just went to sleep.

[Michael Hobbs]

It was like some, like, nuclear level sleeping pill. And it was the day. It was the last day of school for seventh grade. We were all going to a roller skating rink.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh, no. And you wanted to be extra happy.

[Michael Hobbs]

I wanted to be extra happy. And so I sat down to lace up my skate, and I was like, I'm tired. I'm gonna lie down. And then I woke up at 3:15 when somebody was like, shaking me the whole thing, the whole day.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Baby, you took some Trazodone? There's none Question in My mind, I.

[Michael Hobbs]

Have no fucking idea what it was. But I was also a tiny child, and the dosage was also deranged. And then also there was. Speaking of bullying, there was a kid who had been bullying me all year, and that was his last chance to beat me up. And as I was sleeping, at some point during the day, he shook me awake, and he's like, come out back, bitch. I'm gonna beat your ass. And I was too tired to deal with it. I was like, not right now, man. I'm too tired. And he's like, okay. And he just never fucked with me again.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I'm too sleepy for you to mess me up. It's such a wild, like, keep him on their toes. What a fighting move.

[Michael Hobbs]

So anyway, could have been worse.

[Aubrey Gordon]

You could have been on amphetamines.

[Michael Hobbs]

Well, yeah. I mean, that would have been way better. And also, I would have kicked the shit out of that guy.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So he keeps taking diet pills, and he realizes that if he takes. Takes more pills, he loses more weight. Of course, he only stops taking the pills after he has a very intense episode of thinking, and I quote, that my heart would explode.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So he backs off of the diet pills. That freaks him out. And he's like, no, no, no, no, never mind. So he finds out that one of his friend's moms is going to Weight Watchers, and he begs her to take him with her.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

This is early high school. By this point, she agrees, and he's so happy that he runs home to tell his parents. And he writes that when he told his parents, they were really deeply proud of him. More proud of him for going to Weight Watchers than most other things, which scans with the experiences of a lot of fat kids.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, this is. I mean, some of these are parallels with your experience, right?

[Aubrey Gordon]

100%. I was reading this, and I was like, I'm in this picture.

[Michael Hobbs]

Just, like, from a very young age. This is, like, the overwhelming issue that people talk to you about and give you shit about.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Pretty much the only times he writes about his parents being proud of him are around weight loss.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So he describes going to this first Weight Watchers meeting with his friend's mom. Everyone lines up and weighs in. The group leader records everyone's weight and tells them how it changed from last week to this week. If your weight goes down, you get a star pinned to your shirt. If your weight plateaus and stays the same, you get a turtle, which is, like, slow and steady, whatever, into your shirt. And if your weight increases, Michael you get a fucking pig.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah. God. I was like, oh, it's not gonna be a pig, is it?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh, yeah, it was gonna be a pig or a cow or a hippo.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Then the group leader announced everyone's weight loss or gain to the entire group and people clapped or did not clap. F. And his friend's mom, when he goes to the first meeting, gets the fucking pig pinned to her shirt.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, my God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Here is what he writes about that moment.

[Michael Hobbs]

I held her hand. She looked over at me for a moment, and then she said something that I'll never forget. You better do something about your weight now, because it only gets worse later in life. Catch it now before it's too late. I'll never forget the look of shame on her face. Here was this happy lady and one trip to the scale and 20 minutes later she's crying, her mascara is running down her cheek, and she has a pig on her shoulder. I knew from past experience that the system and reward and punishment probably wasn't going to work for me. Oh, God. It's like such a sad lesson for like a little kid.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Totally. And I think this is like where you start to see the birth of the Richard Simmons who stays up all night on the phone with people who watch his videos or come to his classes, right? This is where you see the person who's just like, I just don't want you to get wrecked by this. Right.

[Michael Hobbs]

That's something I remember very vividly from the podcast, that he has it like a deep web well of empathy. He seems to really care about other people. But then he also has these weird blind spots where he sort of stops. It seems like he struggled to form relationships with people that weren't around, kind of rescuing them or being a support for them.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah. He describes himself repeatedly in adulthood as someone who does not have friends, Right? So he's just sort of doing this kind of deep emotional support work. But he doesn't, he doesn't feel like a reciprocal relationship. He doesn't feel, you know, that's how I took that.

[Michael Hobbs]

And then you also think about this poor kid carrying around the fact that he's gay at the same time, right? It's like, okay, I have this fat thing that is like the number one thing that everybody is shitty to me about. And then I have this big fucking secret that I'm carrying around, or at least this feeling I have that I can't put words to. Even if he hadn't sort of identified it in himself yet. And he's left handed and he's left handed. So inferior.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So all of this, all of the crash diets, the diet pills, the doctor's visits, the Weight Watchers, all of this happens while he is a child or a teenager. He has not even gone off to college yet and he's already been through the wringer. Right? So when it comes time for him to leave home, he is stoked.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, I'll bet.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He started at the University of Louisiana at Lafayette and then he transferred to to Florida State where he graduated, interestingly enough, with an art degree. We could have had a Richard Simmons. Bob Ross. That's very fun for me to think about.

[Michael Hobbs]

Maybe there's a happy little tank top. Maybe there's a happy little tank top right here.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He wanted to be a painter and he studied abroad in Italy.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And he loved it. He is there to make his dreams to be an artist come true. But things take a very different turn when he's sitting at a cafe after class one day.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, no.

[Aubrey Gordon]

All right. There you go.

[Michael Hobbs]

He says, I noticed a table of men across the way staring at me. I just assumed they must be admiring my gorgeous curly hair or my new paisley Gucci knockoff overalls. Overalls. Okay. Yup, he's already Richard. One of the men came over and introduced himself, asking me if I knew Federico Fellini, the Italian director. I said I didn't know him, but I knew who he was. Well, the gentleman who introduced himself was the casting director for the movie Satyricon. And Fellini wanted me for a small role and he wanted me because I was fat. But in Italian, it sounded so much nicer.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So Richard Simmons appears briefly in Fellini's Satyrica.

[Michael Hobbs]

Wait, this actually went through. This actually happened.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It is a blink and you'll miss it kind of appearance.

[Michael Hobbs]

No way. He is there, dude in his little overalls.

[Aubrey Gordon]

No, but he is a little fat guy.

[Michael Hobbs]

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. YouTube has it. YouTube has it. YouTube has It. Richard Simmons. Infini's Satiricon. Exclamation point, exclamation point, exclamation point.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Send me the clip.

[Michael Hobbs]

Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on. Okay, sending it to you.

[Aubrey Gordon]

This is fun. That is Richard Simmons.

[Michael Hobbs]

I would not in a million years have recognized that as him.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Full beard. Definitely like a fat dude.

[Michael Hobbs]

He looks like Jack Black.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He looks like a young Belushi.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yes, dude. One of the comments is, my God. The amount of people who think that's Richard Simmons is disturbing.

[Aubrey Gordon]

According to his memoir, it is him.

[Michael Hobbs]

I don't know. Somebody commenting without full context and information, I don't know.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That doesn't sound like the YouTube comment section that I know in a YouTube comment.

[Michael Hobbs]

I don't know.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So the Satyricon role leads to a bunch more acting work in Italy.

[Michael Hobbs]

What?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Mostly in commercials. Really? In one, he played a bunch of grapes for an Italian Fruit of the Loom commercial.

[Michael Hobbs]

Nice. Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

In another, he played a dancing meatball that sings a jingle.

[Michael Hobbs]

God, now I'm imagining a life for Richard Simmons where he just became a successful Italian actor.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Just only did commercials.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, just like a fat, happy guy in Italy.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Totally. He did the skinny, sad guy in America version of, like, he did make his money off of commercials. There's no question. Yeah. This all leads to him becoming a little local celebrity in Florence. He's living there. He's 20 years old. He's supporting himself through acting. He's going to school. He's loving his life. This whole chapter of his life makes me so happy for him, dude.

[Michael Hobbs]

I know. It's like his Eat, Pray, Love era.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And I just love that he gets this sort of era of just being appreciated as he is and celebrated as he is in his true form as a dancing meatball.

[Michael Hobbs]

You know, you're like, yeah, stay there, Richard. Freeze frame. Keep Richard the happy meatball.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So good.

[Michael Hobbs]

This is what we want for you, Richard.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So one day, he borrows his friend's car to go grocery shopping. His friend has a little tiny Fiat. And once again, fat lady in a little car. Love loves fat dude in a littler car. He goes grocery shopping. He uses his friend's car. When he comes out of the market to go to the car, there is a note on the windshield. This is a note that he cites throughout the rest of his career as, like, the turning point when he was like, I finally have to do something about my weight.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, no.

[Aubrey Gordon]

The note says, according to his memoir, richard, you're very funny, but fat people die young. Please don't die, dude.

[Michael Hobbs]

Leave the happy meatball alone.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Totally. Let him be a happy little meatball.

[Michael Hobbs]

God, that's awful. So then, like, this act of bullying becomes, like, this crucial part of his origin story.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Well, and he goes on to say in later interviews, like, I thought people just didn't like me because I was fat. I didn't realize I was going to die because I was fat.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So one of his big messages later on was like, you gotta tell fat people they're gonna die.

[Michael Hobbs]

God, that's so sad.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So he goes on this real emotional roller coaster on this one. Like, who wrote the note, it's somebody who clearly knows or recognizes him. It wasn't signed, so he doesn't know who it was. He gets way up in his head about, like, which one of his friends probably wrote it?

[Michael Hobbs]

Say, to my face, motherfucker. Totally.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So he writes about how he ultimately sort of processed all of this, and this is how he dealt with the feedback from that note.

[Michael Hobbs]

He says, I knew I didn't want to die, so who or what was the enemy? I knew the answer. Food. I knew what I had to do. I had to stop eating. That was it. Plain and simple. And that's what I did. I stayed very busy. I drank water. I walked everywhere. And the weight began to come off. And I do mean the weight began to come off almost like a sugar rush. I began to feel a sort of heady euphoria. It became a game. Every day I found new ways to avoid eating. If I were going to a party or someone's house, I'd fill up with water quickly, drinking seven or eight glasses before I went. Every day, I'd roll the dice. How many days could I do this? Dude, this sucks.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah. And he's like, now this is a strategy for my health.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah. Why can't people just be fat and you be fucking nice to them?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Good enough for Fellini.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, I know.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Jesus Christ.

[Michael Hobbs]

Fat activist King Fredricko Fellini.

[Aubrey Gordon]

God. So that's exactly what he does. He stops eating, and in two and a half months, he loses over 100 pounds.

[Michael Hobbs]

No fucking way.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That fast, Michael. This is how Richard Simmons, quote, unquote, loses the weight. Is just straight up wild, unchecked, happily embraced anorexia.

[Michael Hobbs]

I hope he's, like, lying or exaggerating about that. I mean, that's like, so dangerous.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He talks about his nails breaking off because they're so brittle. He talks about his skin thinning out and turning gray.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He talks about finding clumps of hair on his pillow most mornings. And one day he's out running errands and he starts feeling nauseated and dizzy. And the next thing he knows, he wakes up in a hospital and he's talking to the nurses about starving himself.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

The nurses start refeeding him, and they explain to him that this is not the way to lose weight.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He starts to slowly but surely come back a little bit from his disordered eating. But he's what 12 step folks, or AA folks might call a dry drunk, Right? He's not in therapy. He's not at peace with his body. He doesn't have a neutral, much less a positive relationship with food. He's just like, I'm eating because I'm supposed to eat. Leave me alone.

[Michael Hobbs]

And probably all kinds of still, like, guilt and shame about how much he's eating and when he's eating stuff like.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That, nothing is resolved. He's just managing to kind of bear down and knuckle through. So he's just starting to come back from his eating disorder stuff. And he gets a draft notice for Vietnam.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, God, I forgot this was taking place in, like, history.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He's told to report to a center in New York City for duty. He shows up, but he is still very early in refeeding from his eating disorder.

[Michael Hobbs]

God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So he's still losing hair. He still looks malnourished. And he's given a deferral and doesn't serve right.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And he decides from there to move to Los Angeles and start working in restaurants.

[Michael Hobbs]

Is he attempting to become an actor at this point? Is that why he goes to la?

[Aubrey Gordon]

He doesn't really say why he goes to la. It's odd. I sort of thought, oh, maybe he's gonna pursue acting out there. No, no. He just starts working in restaurants.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

His longest stint is in a restaurant called Derek's, which was a very CNBC restaurant. And its celebrity guests are like, peak 70s. He was like. The people who ate at Derek's were Dion Warwick, Tom Jones, Johnny Carson, and friend of the show, Ed McMahon.

[Michael Hobbs]

Aubry. We don't have time to tell all the youths who all these people are. We now take an hour long detour to describe the youths.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Already know who Dionne Warwick is from her excellent Twitter career.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, that's true. Actually, that is why we know her.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yes. And Ed McMahon. Our listeners will know from a previous episode.

[Michael Hobbs]

Scroll back.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Our single least popular episode.

[Michael Hobbs]

You love bringing that up.

[Aubrey Gordon]

My number one favorite. I love it so much.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's your worm wars.

[Aubrey Gordon]

As you can imagine, Richard Simmons is the maitre d and he is built for front of housework.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, he's an entj.

[Aubrey Gordon]

No. Fuck.

[Michael Hobbs]

We know this from the completely real categorization. We now can diagnose him with one of the 16 people.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh, so like you, he's an extrovert. All right, all right, all right, all right, all right. How dare you.

[Michael Hobbs]

Never bring that up again.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So he finds a way to supplement his income. He makes jewelry.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And he models it at the restaurant. And then people are like, oh, my God, your jewelry. Where'd you get it? And he'd be like, I made It. Do you want some? And would, like, pull jewelry out of his pocket.

[Michael Hobbs]

This is like early Instagram. This, like, is. He's like a little influencer.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He's totally an influencer. But wait, do you want to know? What do you imagine? Let's just start here. What do you imagine the Richard Simmons jewelry looks like?

[Michael Hobbs]

I don't want to be mean. I don't want to be mean.

[Aubrey Gordon]

The theme of his jewelry is anatomy.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, what? Oh, is it just like dicks?

[Aubrey Gordon]

No, no, not that kind of anatomy. Boobs.

[Michael Hobbs]

Boobs. Boobs.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Kidney earrings.

[Michael Hobbs]

What? Wait, what?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Lever broaches.

[Michael Hobbs]

Wait.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Spleen hat pins.

[Michael Hobbs]

Are you sure you're not misreading? Are you having a stroke? Is this real?

[Aubrey Gordon]

A very special 24 karat gold uterus with opal ovaries.

[Michael Hobbs]

Some of those. You wouldn't even know that it's the part of the body. The kidney necklace would just look like a bean.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I would. Well, famously, the Tiffany design, the classic Tiffany design is just a little gold bean. So, like, maybe it looks like knockoff Tiffany.

[Michael Hobbs]

A uterus I feel like I would recognize because it has little ears.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Anyway, I can't express to you how much I would wear, like, pancreas earrings.

[Michael Hobbs]

We have so many Richards. Like, it's like the happy meatball. Richard. We want the best for the artist. Richard, the kidney gold maker. Richard.

[Aubrey Gordon]

The 24 karat gold uterus. Richard.

[Michael Hobbs]

One gallbladder, please. We want the best for all of these people. And we got this totally different Richard.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So while he's working in restaurants selling his wares, he picks up some more extremely maladaptive weight loss methods. Right? He's now working in restaurants. He is surrounded by food.

[Michael Hobbs]

And also he's in fucking LA where, like, everybody has disordered eating. So he's like, I'm sure he's getting all kinds of tips.

[Aubrey Gordon]

A server at one restaurant where he works gives him a tutorial on how to purge.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Another coworker introduces him to abusing laxatives for weight loss. And he was like, I like that they tasted like chocolate.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, my God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

At one point, he notices some regulars are all at the restaurant all the time, but they're rarely eating and they're very thin and they spend a lot of time in the bathroom. And they come back having powdered their noses. He's like, so one day I just marched into that bathroom right behind them, and he sees powder on the sink. And he's like, what is this, Richard? And you're like, you live in LA and you work in the Restaurant industry with famous people in the 70s, you know, cocaine.

[Michael Hobbs]

I have no experience with LA or cocaine, but I do assume that it was basically a snow globe at that time.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Anyway, that is a point at which he's like, mm, I actually don't think I'm gonna do cocaine to lose weight.

[Michael Hobbs]

Good call, Richard. You should do cocaine because it makes you more fun to be around. You should do it for the good reasons.

[Aubrey Gordon]

While he's living in la, he starts experimenting with exercise, which is sort of a burgeoning leisure activity in LA at this point.

[Michael Hobbs]

That's right. Like, the industry is forming. Yeah, yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

This is the 70s. We're not even into the 80s. So this is like exercises for, like, Jack LaLanne and strongmen and that kind of thing. And we're starting to move into, like, oh, what if it's something that people do as part of their daily lives?

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So he tries out Bikram yoga and he's like, not for me.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, that does seem a little low energy for Richard.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And then one day, a friend recommends exercise classes at a place called Body by Gilda.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

By Gilda was a studio run by Gilda Marx. I would say, based on what I've read, that Gilda Marx is sort of like the exercise equivalent of that saying about the Velvet Underground. Like, not everybody listened, but everybody who did started a band.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So Body by Gilda is where Jane Fonda started working at.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Regular attendees also included Bette Midler and Barbra Streisand.

[Michael Hobbs]

Nice.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So Richard goes to Gilda's class in la and he talks about sort of all of the feelings of being a fat kid and learning that physical activity is a place where you get ridiculed or you get excluded or you get whatever. And he's like, this is the first time I didn't feel any of that. And I got to be exactly as exuberant as I wanted to be. I got to be exactly who I was. Someone was there playing the piano, and they were playing, like, crowd pleaser kind of songs. Gilda is this kind of glamorous class leader. She always has her nails done for her gym class and her hair is done. She has, like, a signature red lip that she wears to the. Where I'm just like, holy hell. Full face of makeup.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Gym. Look at you.

[Michael Hobbs]

That doesn't like. She looks like a Salvador Dali painting by the end, but I'm sure she was making it work.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It's exercise, but it's mostly about having fun. He feels like he can really cut loose and Be his whole self, with his whole energy level. And he leaves feeling strong, feeling amped, and with this sense that he really found the place for him. So much so that he pre pays for a whole series of 10 classes. He's like, sign me up. He is also the only person in the class who's not a woman. That night, he goes to work at Derek's at the restaurant, and Gilda and her husband walk in the door of the restaurant, and he thinks that they're there to have dinner. He's really excited to see her. And what she's actually there to do is give him a refund.

[Michael Hobbs]

What?

[Aubrey Gordon]

And to tell him that he can't come back.

[Michael Hobbs]

What?

[Aubrey Gordon]

And that the women in the class weren't comfortable with having a man in the class. And he straightforwardly, in the memoir, is like, I don't believe her.

[Michael Hobbs]

So what do you think it was?

[Aubrey Gordon]

I think probably, like, if you're not accustomed, if you didn't sign on specifically for Richard Simmons level of energy.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I could understand feeling like this is more than I'm up for.

[Michael Hobbs]

I'm just, like, marveling at how. How hurtful that must have been, because you finally find a place that you're comfortable, and you're like, oh, I found my people. And then an hour later, they're like, no.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah. So this one, he describes this one as hurting him in more depth and detail than any of the other previous hurts in this book.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, it must be. Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Once again, he's getting the message that he's not wanted.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So next in the book, he tells this story of being out for dinner and running into a customer of his from Derek's. From the restaurant. Like, a lot of his customers, this dude is wealthy as hell. And they start talking, and Richard is like, I think it's time for me to move on from restaurants. And this customer says, well, what do you want to do? And Richard says, I actually want to start my own gym.

[Michael Hobbs]

So that's what did it. He just, like, gets kicked out of one. He's like, I'm starting one.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He went to one exercise class. He loved it. And he was like, oh, you're going to kick me out? How about I start my own gym?

[Michael Hobbs]

I need to know how many public figures launch their careers out of pure spite. It has to be more than 50%.

[Aubrey Gordon]

According to Richard Simmons in this memoir. This strains credulity to me.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

The customer at that dinner is like, what a great idea. I'll finance it.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah. Huh.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Like, it occurs to him and he has a, you know, a financing partner. Her. Just immediately. There's this weird sort of way of storytelling that Richard Simmons has. Like, he just keeps stumbling into major career victories. At one point he's like, I never wanted to write a book. And then I sat on a plane and I was sitting next to the VP of Random House. I'm like, no, you weren't.

[Michael Hobbs]

Also, you wonder how much he was exploring the gay scene in LA at this time.

[Aubrey Gordon]

For sure.

[Michael Hobbs]

Like, it could have been somebody he knew from the restaurant. It could have been someone he was dating. It could have been, like, as soon as you leave out this huge part of your identity, there's probably entirely entire people that you know that are not going to make it in your book. And entire relationships and subplots that just aren't going to be in there.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah. I will say I did find a clip of an interview where he's being interviewed by Huell Hauser. California listeners will be familiar with no idea. Huell Hauser.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's like Dionne Warwick to our young listeners.

[Aubrey Gordon]

For the entire interview, Richard Simmons is staring at Huell Hauser's chest. And then he goes, sorry, there's a chubby little alligator on your shirt. And then later, he's like, do you want to arm wrestle me?

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, my God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Richard Simmons is working overtime to get laid. And it's in an interview for cnn.

[Michael Hobbs]

Control your meatballs, Richard.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It made me. It made me so happy. I was gonna show it. I was gonna play it on the show, and then I was like, do you know who huellhauser is? And you were like, I've never heard that name in my life. And I was like, well, then it's not fun.

[Michael Hobbs]

This is what I would be like if I was ever in the room with Jeremy Irons. I'd just be looking at his neck veins.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh, you got a Jeremy Irons thing.

[Michael Hobbs]

Specifically, Jeremy Irons from Die Hard With a Vengeance, where he's all ropey and mean.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So regardless of the origins, that is when Richard Simmons opens his first exercise studio. This is the gym that is later known as Slimmings.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay. It's pretty good.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So he opens his gym and he decides that it's going to be a gym that takes all comers, you know?

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And it really takes off with two demographics in particular. Gay men and fat women.

[Michael Hobbs]

Just like this show.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Just like.

[Michael Hobbs]

Just like our podcast.

[Aubrey Gordon]

We are. The Richard Simmons demographic cannot talk shit.

[Michael Hobbs]

We cannot come for Richard Simmons lest someone come for us.

[Aubrey Gordon]

A number of gay men are into nautilus gyms at this point, but those are described at the time as being kind of like nightclubs and sort of like hookup spaces.

[Michael Hobbs]

Like cruise.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, yeah. So it's not a everyone is welcome and you're here to exercise space.

[Michael Hobbs]

My friend's gym in London, which is like around Soho, has like a women's changing room, a men's changing room, and another men's changing room. Just like everyone knows that's like the gay sex changing room. Even though there's like not a sign.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And the women's room is just like a tumbleweed.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's just storage. They keep like the paper towels in there. No one's ever been in there.

[Aubrey Gordon]

There are these nautilus gyms that are kind of like nightclubs. There are bodybuilding gyms, but if you're not a bodybuilder, you're gonna feel so weird there.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

People use a particular phrase a lot when talking about the early years of Slimmins. And that phrase is, quote, you don't have to look like you already go to the gym to belong there. Oh, that's nice. Right? Yeah. So he starts leading exercise classes at this gym and he starts getting press because he is Richard Simmons. And I left this out. The gym, despite being like, come one, come all, outsiders, hello. The gym is in Beverly Hills.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And. And the classes were expensive in late 70s dollars. It was $100 for 10 classes. That's $650 in today's dollars.

[Michael Hobbs]

So like 65 bucks a class.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yup.

[Michael Hobbs]

Dam.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He also starts getting press just for being in LA and being Richard Simmons.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

There are a bunch of like little profiles of him that start to pop up. There's an LA Times him quote, a kind of freaked out Jack LaLanne, which Jack LaLanne did not love.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, I'll bet. Yeah. Just say the gay version of me. This is taking forever.

[Aubrey Gordon]

The gym takes off and it becomes a chain. At this point, the gym is not yet called Slimmings. Also nowhere in the write ups, I'm like, everybody was asleep at the wheel for these obituaries of him. Because no one mentioned that the original name of his gym was the Anatomy Asylum.

[Michael Hobbs]

What? That's garbage.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So we're gonna watch an ad, Richard, for the Anatomy Asylum that I found on YouTube.

[Michael Hobbs]

The man who brought us, I'm a Catholic OI also did a Catholic OI.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

The anatomy Asylum is so bad.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Wait until you hear the slogan, it gets better slash worse.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh God. Okay.

[C]

Hi, I'm Richard Simmons. My first anatomy Asylum in Los Angeles was the start of something great. A great national network of 72 clubs in 13 cities, including yours, where people like you can lose weight, look good, and feel great. Now we've got the music, the instructors, and the facilities right here to help you get yourself back in shape. Join me and over 100,000 members all over the country. Isn't it time you were committed? Committed to the Anatomy Asylum.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Join the Anatomy Asylum now and get.

[Michael Hobbs]

Two people for the price of 1 or 50% off the enrollment of a VIP.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Do you see what I mean about both better and worse? So we are at the beginnings of the Richard Simmons fitness empire.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's happening.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And next time, we're going to watch the empire sort of unfold in front of him, and we're going to see what Richard Simmons does when he stops being sort of the target of the messages and starts being the deliverer of the messages. Right.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

We start seeing what he decides to do with the platform that he builds, and it's really interesting.

[Michael Hobbs]

So what was your takeaway from this section of the book? Like, how did it change the way that you think about Richard Simmons?

[Aubrey Gordon]

I felt, honestly, like, a little bit embarrassed that someone who had been such a constant presence in my life had been given so little thought by me, but also just kind of by the culture at large.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right, right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It made me sad that I had to go back and read this book from 25 years ago.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

To hear from anyone, anywhere that he actually had a really rough time growing up and that he had different dreams than this and that he thought he was going to be a priest and then maybe an actor and then maybe a painter. Right. Like, all of this was new information to me. All of it makes sense.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And all of it makes me wish that we had been better to him when he was around to experience us being better to him.

[Michael Hobbs]

I mean, I do think next time we're confronted with a public figure like this who's sort of happy, go lucky, almost to a fault, I think we should immediately ask ourselves, shouldn't you be a happy little meatball meatballing around somewhere in Italy? Sa.