"Soy Boys"

Summary

Maintenance Phase Podcast Summary: "Soy Boys"

Release Date: September 12, 2023
Hosts: Aubrey Gordon & Michael Hobbes
Episode Title: "Soy Boys"

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Introduction

In the "Soy Boys" episode of Maintenance Phase, hosts Aubrey Gordon and Michael Hobbes delve into the cultural phenomenon of the "soy boy" insult, examining its origins, underlying science (or lack thereof), and its role within right-wing ideology. The discussion intertwines humor, personal anecdotes, and critical analysis to unpack how soy has become a symbol in debates over masculinity and dietary choices.

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Defining "Soy Boy" and Its Origins

[01:14] Michael Hobbes:

"A soy boy is an insult or sort of pejorative that's very popular in far right spaces, especially online spaces. It goes in the same sort of category as calling men like cucks or low T or beta males or new males."

Aubrey and Michael begin by defining "soy boy" as a derogatory term prevalent in far-right online communities, used alongside other insults like "cucks" and "beta males" to demean men perceived as lacking traditional masculine traits.

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Stereotypes and Cultural Associations

[04:31] Aubrey Gordon:

"They're usually depicted as being sort of unathletic. They don't really have muscle tone. They are generally seen to have feminine traits. Small hands, small features. Breast tissue is part of it."

The hosts describe the typical "soy boy" stereotype: unathletic, lacking muscle tone, possessing feminine physical traits, and often associated with consuming soy products like tofu. This caricature extends to lifestyle choices, such as vegetarianism or veganism, and is intertwined with perceptions of being socially progressive or aligned with "SJW" (Social Justice Warrior) ideologies.

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Historical Context and Media Influence

[07:07] Aubrey Gordon:

"Soy itself has been cultivated in East Asia for thousands of years... In the 70s, we start to see much more of a takeoff of, like, tofu in particular and soy as, like, the main event..."

The discussion traces soy's historical cultivation in East Asia and its introduction to Western diets in the 1970s. The rise of health food movements saw soy products like tofu become mainstream, inadvertently setting the stage for soy's later vilification in cultural debates over masculinity.

[12:44] Michael Hobbs:

"We're going to start with Michael Pollan publishing the Omnivore's Dilemma."

The hosts highlight pivotal moments that amplified soy-related anxieties, including media coverage by figures like Rush Limbaugh and publications like Men’s Health. These platforms began questioning soy's health impacts, often without robust scientific backing, contributing to the spread of myths surrounding soy consumption.

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Media Representations and Anecdotal Evidence

[16:11] Aubrey Gordon:

"This man has not read, like, a complete sentence in his entire life."

Aubrey critiques a Men’s Health article that used a single anecdote of a man developing gynecomastia (enlarged breast tissue) potentially due to high soy consumption. The hosts argue that such stories are misleading, lacking scientific rigor, and serve as fodder for anti-soy rhetoric.

[24:56] Michael Hobbs:

"By the way, they didn't just test it, they sprayed them with gay bombs."

Aubrey and Michael discuss a clip featuring Alex Jones, who ties soy consumption to absurd conspiracy theories like the "gay bomb." This segment underscores the hyperbolic and unfounded connections made between soy and emasculation in extremist media.

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Propagation by Influencers and Conspiracy Theorists

[33:32] Aubrey Gordon:

"This is the year 2017 that the concept of the soy boy sort of took off online."

The hosts explore how influencers like Paul Joseph Watson and platforms like Infowars have propagated the "soy boy" narrative, blending legitimate concerns with fringe conspiracy theories. These narratives often employ antisemitic dog whistles, framing soy as part of a "globalist chemical warfare program."

[39:18] Aubrey Gordon:

"The enemy today is what I like to call soy globalism."

Quoting the Raw Egg Nationalist from a Tucker Carlson documentary, Aubrey illustrates how soy is falsely portrayed as a tool for societal control, pushing the masculinity crisis narrative further into mainstream conservative discourse.

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Scientific Scrutiny and Debunking Myths

[22:05] Aubrey Gordon:

"It is true that soy contains something called phytoestrogens... But, despite, you know, we sort of characterize estrogen as like a women's hormone or something... right? People of all sexes and genders produce estrogen."

Aubrey clarifies the scientific reality of soy's phytoestrogens, explaining that while they are chemically similar to human estrogen, they do not function identically in the body. This distinction is crucial in debunking myths that soy consumption adversely affects men's hormonal balance and masculinity.

[23:50] Michael Hobbs:

"Maybe you're just a pussy because you're a pussy, Todd, not because of the soybeans."

The discussion emphasizes that extensive scientific reviews and meta-analyses have found no compelling evidence linking soy intake to negative effects on testosterone levels or male reproductive health, countering the "soy boy" claims with factual data.

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Impact on Masculinity and Societal Perceptions

[41:36] Michael Hobbs:

"So, yeah, I feel like the biggest thing with sisters these days is like depression and loneliness and like suicides and like potentially drug overdoses."

Aubrey and Michael reflect on how societal focus has shifted from addressing genuine men's health issues—such as mental health and physical well-being—to combating manufactured threats to masculinity like the soy boy myth. They argue that this misdirection diverts attention from pressing concerns that require real solutions.

[42:13] Michael Hobbs:

"This is self-defense."

The hosts discuss how the narrative of masculinity being under constant attack allows individuals to position themselves defensively, fostering a mindset where defending traditional masculinity becomes a central identity marker.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[43:18] Aubrey Gordon:

"Take it from the leftist podcaster who's... homophobic and transphobic... but still sa..."

The conversation concludes with a critique of how far-right rhetoric weaponizes concepts like soy consumption to undermine men's confidence and societal roles. Aubrey and Michael underscore the importance of differentiating between legitimate men's health issues and baseless cultural attacks that stem from insecurity and ideological agendas.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• [17:09] Michael Hobbs:

  "It was around the time my wife died, and I was like, buddy, you're gonna feel emotionally dysregulated after your partner dies."

• [28:07] Michael Hobbs:

  "If you don't want to eat tofu, don't eat tofu. Not everybody likes tofu. It's totally fine."

• [34:29] Michael Hobbs:

  "The enemy today is what I like to call soy globalism... The globalists want you to be fat, sick, depressed and isolated, the better to control you..."

• [39:40] Aubrey Gordon:

  "Here we have one thing: People don't give a shit."

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Key Takeaways

1. "Soy Boy" as a Cultural Insult:
   The term "soy boy" is a derogatory label used predominantly in far-right circles to mock men who deviate from traditional masculine norms, often tied to dietary choices like soy consumption.

2. Lack of Scientific Basis:
   Claims that soy adversely affects male hormones and masculinity are unfounded. Scientific studies and reviews have consistently shown that soy does not negatively impact testosterone levels or male reproductive health.

3. Media and Influencer Influence:
   Figures like Alex Jones and Paul Joseph Watson have amplified soy-related myths, intertwining them with broader conspiracy theories about masculinity and societal control.

4. Historical and Racial Context:
   The vilification of soy is linked to historical stereotypes and racial biases, particularly against Asian men, who have long been stereotyped as less masculine.

5. Misallocation of Focus:
   The obsession with debunking soy myths distracts from addressing actual men's health issues, such as mental health struggles and physical well-being.

6. Ideological Weaponization:
   The "soy boy" narrative serves as a tool for reinforcing hegemonic masculinity and marginalizing men who adopt progressive lifestyles or dietary practices.

7. Impact on Society:
   Perpetuating myths around soy and masculinity contributes to societal divisions and hinders constructive conversations about gender roles and health.

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Conclusion

In "Soy Boys," Maintenance Phase dissects the absurdity of the soy boy myth, highlighting how it serves as a convenient narrative for far-right groups to attack evolving concepts of masculinity. By juxtaposing anecdotal stories with scientific evidence, Aubrey Gordon and Michael Hobbes effectively debunk the myths surrounding soy, urging listeners to focus on genuine men's health concerns rather than baseless cultural attacks.

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Note: The transcript provided extends up to approximately 43:21. Any developments in the episode beyond this point are not included in this summary.

Transcript

[Michael Hobbs]

Also, due to my hand problems, I'm no longer holding my mic. I have a mic stand now and so I can do, I can do the clap emojis like give the men estrogen. Okay, I have one, but it's. It might be too scientific.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Oh, interesting.

[Michael Hobbs]

As an expert in this field, as.

[Aubrey Gordon]

An expert in me, I can't wait to hear what comes next to educate the public.

[Michael Hobbs]

Welcome. Welcome to Maintenance Phase, the podcast that says yestrogen to all forms of estrogen. People thought I wasn't an expert. People thought I didn't know. But I do know.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Big I am Kenough Energy.

[Michael Hobbs]

If this one was about testosterone, it would have been say yestosterone.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It wouldn't have been testosterone. The San Francisco treat. Michael Hobbs, I am Aubrey Gordon. If you would like to support the show, you can do [e-mail] maintenance phase. You can also subscribe through Apple Podcast Premium. It's the same audio content. Michael.

[Michael Hobbs]

Aubrey, I'm so excited. I'm not even letting you get to the. Today we're doing part.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Tell me what you're excited about because I.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay. I am like such a beta cuck person that like I already feel seen. This one is about the soy boy thing, right?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Uh huh.

[Michael Hobbs]

Men are growing boobs because they're eating tofu or something.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yes. Today we're going to be talking about sort of the right wing insult soy boy, which has sort of morphed into almost a plank in the Republican platform.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, it's really bleak.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And we're also going to figure out what the underlying science is from all of that.

[Michael Hobbs]

What does the research say about fapping? What does the FAP Cochrane Review say?

[Aubrey Gordon]

So just to start us off, for folks who are under familiar, first of all, congratulations. Soy boy is an insult or sort of pejorative that's very popular in far right spaces, especially online spaces. It goes in the same sort of category as calling men like cucks or low T or beta males or new males.

[Michael Hobbs]

I have been called all of those things and I agree.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, that's right. You're part of the extended cuckaverse.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So I thought we would watch a little video clip of someone who I thought would be a real expert in this explaining what a soy boy is.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh no.

[Joe Rogan]

Soy is like a political fruit or vegetable.

[Donell Rellings]

Is it?

[Joe Rogan]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. People call you a soy boy if you're a Republican. People call weak men soy boys. I never knew that soy is one of the rare foods that's actually attached to being a bitch.

[Donell Rellings]

That's a food.

[Joe Rogan]

And this is not my perspective. This is just. I just think it's a. It's a plant. It doesn't matter to me.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right.

[Joe Rogan]

I think soy lowers your testosterone. Yeah. Yeah. Soy isoflavones can produce estrogen, like activity in the body, mimicking the effects of natural estrogen. Yeah, But I think you could grow.

[Donell Rellings]

Titties off a soy.

[Joe Rogan]

Not quite, but it might feminize you. It might feminize you. Plants affect your hormone production.

[Michael Hobbs]

This is how I want to learn my scientific information from one comedian telling.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Another comedian, Michael, tell me your thoughts and feelings. Does this comport with what you would expect of Joe Rogan? And does this comport with what you have heard about soy?

[Michael Hobbs]

Sorry, can you give me a second? I'm just fitting my sports bra because I had some tofu this morning. Very logistically difficult for me. This is like the fucking perfect Joe Rogan thing where he's like, I don't know, man. Some people think it's pussifying, but, like, I don't know, man. Anyway, why don't we Google that? Oh, yeah, it turns out it is. Yeah. Here's some crank screenshot from some crank website.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I mean, he brings it back to the. I don't believe it. At the end of this segment.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And donell Rellings, I will say, hilariously chimes in with. I thought it was about being a foodie.

[Michael Hobbs]

I do think there's probably something to that, though, in that it's kind of coded as liberal, effete, ivory tower, like, lib bullshit.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Right.

[Michael Hobbs]

I mean, this is kind of the whole thing. It's like a. It's a culture war thing more than. I mean, obviously more than. It's any kind of scientific stuff, but it's basically like, people I don't like are, like, really into tofu, and therefore tofu must be, like, uniquely pernicious in some way.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Totally. So the people I don't like part is sort of the caricature of a soy boy. Right, Right. They're usually depicted as being sort of unathletic. They don't really have muscle tone. They are generally seen to have feminine tr. Small hands, small features. Breast tissue is part of it. Right. They're usually shown wearing glasses and with an untrimmed beard.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That's like a little scraggly. Right.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

There's like a whole aesthetic, and there is a face that's called soy face. Or this. I prefer this name. Soylent grin.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, that's pretty good. Wait, let me Google soylent Oh, it's sort of like the Aziz Ansari face in Parks and Rec. Yeah, that's right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Big open mouth, surpr. Surprised smile.

[Michael Hobbs]

I was just about to be like, I make that face and get all the. But that's kind of proof of their point, I guess. If you're in this world, this is.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Quietly just an intervention for you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

Joe Rogan's right over your shoulder. Tell him the face thing.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Mike, there's life after being a gay person. You don't have to live this way.

[Michael Hobbs]

I also, I will say I have huge hands. I didn't know that was like a masculine, feminine thing. But, like, for a beta cuck, like a five foot six, effeminate, prancing little man, I have giant hands.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Maybe you're not a soy boy.

[Michael Hobbs]

The whole point of this episode for me is to prove my masculinity.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So in addition to all of those sort of physical features, those sort of soy boy stereotype also includes them being vegetarian or vegan.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

They're also considered to be SJWs, but not like the sort of, like, boundless rage of Lady SJWs. The idea here is that they're sort of the cowed male equivalent and they're.

[Michael Hobbs]

Sort of betraying their sex too. Right. It's like, well, as a man, you're sort of supposed to be, like, loyal to other men. Right. You're not supposed to be like, talking about, like, oh, the gender wage gap and stuff. Like, come on, man.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah. And I also think this is a term that is deeply, deeply racialized. Yeah, yeah. So there's also a little tinge of sort of like race traitor is happening in there. Right?

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So in order to talk about this sort of set of myths and this kind of right wing panic, we got to talk about soy a little bit. Soy itself has been cultivated in East Asia for thousands of years. It has a ton of advantages as a crop. It's hardy, it can grow in pretty low quality soil, and it also, like any sort of beans and peas that you might grow. As gardeners know, it will actually enrich the soil for the next crop that you plant.

[Michael Hobbs]

It sounds like a pretty hardy crop. It sounds pretty manly, honestly. It sounds fairly Alpha.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So the 70s is when we start to see much more of a takeoff of, like, tofu in particular and soy as, like, the main event, which is also around the same time that the US Starts to experience a real boom in natural foods and health food stores. Right. So there's more of an idea that some foods are really Good. Some foods are really bad. And at this point, we start getting layers of moralizing about it and sort of what those foods say about who you are. This is also around the time that people start really wrapping up our understanding of tofu in our understanding of vegetarians. We start getting more of a market for vegetarians and more of a market for vegetarian foods. Things like tofu dogs start popping up in grocery stores, and folks become sort of more aware if they are not vegetarian, that there is sort of a growing sense that there are more and more vegetarians around them. Right.

[Michael Hobbs]

This is. We talked about this in our vegetarianism episode, but also, I know this is when it happened, but we also get the social construction of vegetarians and vegans as sort of like, holier than thou. I mean, I have not met a vegan like this, but this idea of, like, they're constantly scolding you and they think they're better than you and all this stuff, like, I remember this stuff from the 90s.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Can I tell you my theory about where that comes from? Ooh, I think it is. So listen, we talked about this a little bit in our food pyramid episode that there was sort of this push by doctors to define vegetarianism as sort of the heart, healthiest diet and the thing you ought to pursue and, like, cut out animal products. But I think that folks were feeling really judged by that.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And externalized. That response to feeling judged as like, they're always preaching to you.

[Michael Hobbs]

People used to mention tofu the way that they would mention, like, John Tesh as just like the most obviously just like, loser shit. Like, that guy eats tofu.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That is a true thing. I think whatever a particular culture or group of people selects as their example of a gross out food is, like, incredibly telling.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah. Super. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

What I learned in the research of this sort of cultural anxiety about men and men's health is that this is actually a pretty long historical pattern of making fun of vegetarians more when white masculinity feels like it is sort of tenuous or outdated or under threat. So dating back to the 80s, 1800s, people in the US and the UK started sort of depicting vegetarians, especially men who are vegetarians, as a kind of threat to, like, hegemonic masculinity. Right. That there's this implicit threat of a man deciding to do something other than what, quote, unquote, manly men are supposed to do.

[Michael Hobbs]

This man is 5, 6, and he hosts a podcast.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Partly this sort of response is because of the cultural association between masculinity and like hunting or dying, domination or any of that kind of stuff. But a lot of it has to do with sort of diets being lighter in animal products. Had long been associated with black, indigenous and people of color, but particularly Asian people. Right. And existing stereotypes had depicted Asian CIS men as effeminate and sort of insufficiently masculine. Right. Like that's a thing that continues to this day.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And those stereotypes, I did not fucking know this. Those stereotypes were used to justify colonialism and colonialist projects throughout asia. Oh, in 1884, there's an American neurologist who writes about Asian communities and sort of like the diets in East Asia and writes, quote, thus flesh eating nations have ever been more aggressive than those peoples whose diet is largely or exclusively vegetable. What? The effeminate rice eaters in India and China have again and again yielded to the superior moral courage of an infinitely smaller number of meat eating Englishmen.

[Michael Hobbs]

Dude, how the fuck is a British person gonna be like, we're good at colonialism cause our food is better. I don't know how much you know about British food at this time.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Don't think that's the reason they haven't stolen Indian food yet.

[Michael Hobbs]

Exactly. We have like one and a half spices at this point.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So while all of these sorts of foods are getting attached to that idea of like the sort of like lefty vegan scold, right, foods like tofu become aligned with this kind of like classed liberalism. Right, yeah. That it's about both left leaning politics, but also a certain amount of disposable income and other foods like red meat, which is quite expensive.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Become tied to conservatism in the popular imagination.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So by the early 1990s, Rush Limbaugh is already sort of railing against quote, unquote, latte drinking liberals. Right.

[Michael Hobbs]

The latte stuff, they still trot that out sometimes, which is the funny shit, because lattes are now so fucking normal.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

That's like not even like a liberal elite thing. That's like a suburban strip mall thing.

[Aubrey Gordon]

This is where we get into the like real sort of modern origins of this myth. If you're ready.

[Michael Hobbs]

Does it start with Alex Jones?

[Aubrey Gordon]

No, it starts with 2000, 2006. We're going to start with Michael Pollan. Oh. Publishing the Omnivores Dilemma.

[Michael Hobbs]

We're coming for you, Pollan. No, we left him alive last time. It's like Saddam hussein in the 90s. We're coming back.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Jesus Christ. So in 2006, Pollan publishes the Omnivores Dilemma and Rush Limbaugh really latches on.

[Michael Hobbs]

Limbaugh was a pollen guy.

[Aubrey Gordon]

No, he was not a pollen guy. He was like, get off my case, I eat what I want.

[Michael Hobbs]

So he was anti pollen. Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He was totally anti pollen.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And this starts to sort of bubble up a little bit in conservative spaces. So later that same year, the right wing website Worldnet Daily ran a six part feature on the hazards of quote, unquote, health foods.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, nice. Uh huh, nice. What were the hazards?

[Aubrey Gordon]

The hazards were that soy and like flax and then a bunch of other health foods were the cause of homosexuality. Early puberty, late puberty and infertility.

[Michael Hobbs]

That's false though, because the cause of homosexuality is having small hands.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So within a few years, those claims start to broaden and they start to focus in on just soy. Right? Soy alone is now responsible for a quote, unquote feminization of CIS men. And that quote unquote feminism, feminization was reported with this sort of air of medical authority. Right? That's like, it's definitely happening. We should all be freaked out. And the science is clear. A lot of that traces back to one particular story.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That story is published in 2009 in Men's Health.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So I just sent you the screen grab of this, of the head and deck for this story.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, fuck yes. This is a question mark headline. We love a question mark headline. So it's like Men's Health. And then in, you know, they have these like tags with like categories, right? It'll be like movies or books or whatever. The category of this story is soy's negative effects.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That's like the vertical.

[Michael Hobbs]

And then the headline is, is this the most dangerous food for men? And then sub headline, the unassuming soybean has silently infiltrated the American diet as what might just be the perfect protein source. It's cheap and vegetarian and could even unclog our hearts. But there may be a hidden dark side to soy. One that has the power to undermine everything it means to be male.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So here's my question. Based on your years of experience hosting the show with me, what do you expect this article to contain?

[Michael Hobbs]

Maybe this is just because I've been reading too much anti vax nonsense lately, but I'm expecting like an opening anecdote. John always felt like a man, but then he ate a patty of tofu and now he has boobs or something. Some like super anecdotal unconfirmed report. And then we're gonna interview some like, allegedly iconoclastic doctor. Like, the scientific consensus is that soybeans are fine, but, like, Dr. So and so says that he sees patients with boobs or whatever.

[Aubrey Gordon]

God, it's like, you don't even need me here.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah. Should I. I'll take the episode from here, Aubrey.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So sorry. I have, like. It's hilarious because that is, like, beat for fuck.

[Michael Hobbs]

Excuse me?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Fuck.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yes.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And I will say it doesn't. It's not that it starts with an anecdote. It starts with an anecdote, it middles with an anecdote. It ends with an anecdote. This is one person's story. Oh. The article focused on a guy named James Price, who was a retired US army intelligence officer who was diagnosed with gynecomastia, which is enlarged mammary glands in men. He says that he went in to seek treatment after feeling really emotionally dysregulated for a long time. And he was like, it was above and beyond this thing. But it was around the time my wife died, and I was like, buddy, you're gonna feel emotionally dysregulated after your partner dies.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

But he was again, he was like, no, it was more than that. But I was like, oh, this feels like a very funny joke about, like, a dude has a feeling and is like, I gotta see a doctor.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It must be the soybeans.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Totally. So he went to the doctor, and they ran a bunch of tests and spent a bunch of time investigating, and they found that this one guy had elevated estrogen levels. According to Men's Health, he had roughly eight times that that would be expected for other CIS men.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

As the story unfolds, we find out that this guy James found out that he was lactose intolerant some years earlier, so he had switched to soy milk.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And when the doctor asked him how much soy milk he drank, he said it was, like, one of his favorite drinks and that he estimated that he drank about three quarts of soy milk a day.

[Michael Hobbs]

He does, like, a Big Gulp cup full of soy milk next to him at all times.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That's a couple of Big Gulps full of soy milk. Right. So this is, like, entirely anecdotal. Right. We're just talking about this one guy, and then the piece drops into these sweeping, alarmist claims about Americans consuming too much soy.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right. Because you can probably do a correlation with, like, over the last 10 years, soy consumption in America is quintupled or something. Because it probably did by 2009.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yes. I mean, that's essentially what they did. So here's what they have to Say they talk about the AAP recommending cow's milk formula over soy formula in a report in 2008. Which is true. They did. They note that 35% of bottle fed babies in the US at the time received at least some of their protein from soy. Okay, they go on. This is more maintenance phase catnip. This is a quote from the actual piece.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay. It says, A 2001 study in the Journal of the American Medical association surveyed over 800 adults ages 20 to 34 who were fed either soy based or cow's milk formulas during their infancy. One of the few differences to emerge was that the group raised on soy formula regularly used more asthma and allergy medications in adulthood. Was this just a quirk of the sampling or could it represent a subtle impairment of immune function? What?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Right.

[Michael Hobbs]

This is false because we know that the immune function is related to the mercury that they're getting in the vaccines.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Uh huh. Correct.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's the Mesopotamia.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And also like serving an existing group of people who have allergies and are eating foods that are more common in allergy friendly spaces. Yeah, feels like, yeah, no shit. If you take allergy meds, you might be more tuned in to your own personal sort of like health and wellbeing. You might be more likely to gravitate toward like health foods. You might, you know what I mean? Like there's so much going on here and instead they do this dumb shit like heavy lifting question mark thing.

[Michael Hobbs]

This is very similar to the moving of the goalpost thing among anti vaxxers where it's like, it's this vaccine, it's this other vaccine. It's autism. No, it's everything. No, it's allergies where it's like, okay, if people are consuming more estrogen and it's causing this guy's very specific condition, that's one thing. But then we have a completely different narrative here where it's like asthma and allergies, right? But those are all like different biological mechanisms by which it would be affecting you. I feel like there's this idea that foods are just like good for you or bad for you. And like anything bad that happens, people are like, oh, it's this food, right?

[Aubrey Gordon]

So like it does it. Again with. There is a piece where they sort of like cite a couple of papers suggesting that one component of soy is linked to erectile dysfunction in animals. And then they do a whole thing being like, what if it's true in people too? And it's like, chill the fuck out. This is a, this is an Article that's not ready to be written yet.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

There's just not enough evidence here to say anything for sure.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right.

[Aubrey Gordon]

But instead they turn in this like, I'm just asking questions kind of draft.

[Michael Hobbs]

We're all eating soybeans and now the mice can't even get boners anymore. Nobody wants to talk about it.

[Aubrey Gordon]

No.

[Michael Hobbs]

But this is. I feel like there's like a fundamental kind of mismatch here in that I think that it is good to do studies on, like, random shit. Like, I don't really mind these kinds of studies being done, but I think that one of the fundamental challenges of, like, the information age is that because everybody has access to so much information, like, it's very easy to look up academic journals, you can easily take these super preliminary studies and be like, we're all growing boobs because of the soybeans. But, like, I don't want to, like, throw the scientific baby out with the bathwater here. I think doing, like, animal studies is fine. It's just that they get interpreted and, like, spread around like our bad information environment in this, like, really obnoxious way.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, totally. So it is true that soy contains something called phytoestrogens. Phytoestrogens exist in plants, but they have some chemical similarities to the estrogen that is produced by humans. They are similar to estrogen, but they are not human estrogen. And also, even when we are talking about like straight up human estrogen, despite, you know, we sort of characterize estrogen as like a women's hormone or something. Right? But people of all sexes and genders produce estrogen, Right? So, like, you produce estrogen, I produce estrogen, I also produce testosterone. We just have them in different balances, right? Phytoestrogens are named phytoestrogens because they are chemically similar but decidedly sort of not identical. Phyto just means plant. Oh. And when humans eat phytoestrogens, they are metabolized differently. They are put to work differently. Like, it. It all sort of works differently, right? When you eat phytoestrogens versus when your body produces estrogen, it really feels like.

[Michael Hobbs]

These people are just like going through Wikipedia and looking for any excuse. They're like, ooh, phytoestrogen.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It has the word estrogen in it, right?

[Michael Hobbs]

It's like, do you have any actual knowledge of this substance or how it works? As I did it, it has estrogen in it.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So that Men's Health piece comes out in 2009. In 2010, we get two big research reviews, two big meta analyses that show no compelling evidence that a soy rich diet impacts testosterone levels, sperm counts or anything else to do with CIS men's health. Right.

[Michael Hobbs]

Maybe you're just a pussy because you're a pussy, Todd, not because of the soybeans. This is very similar to the mercury and vaccine stuff where it's just like, yeah, if this was true, we would fucking know it and it would be super obvious. There's vast differences between populations and like how much soy they're eating. Like it would be really fucking easy to measure.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So men's health, sort of unwittingly, he plants sort of a seed and by 2015 we get what becomes frankly a real modern classic of the Internet. Oh, I sent you a link. I'm afraid this is what we will be watching.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, this shit. I've seen this, Aubrey. I've seen this so many times.

[Aubrey Gordon]

We'll see it again.

[Michael Hobbs]

I love this shit. Okay, this is. The title is Alex Jones Gay Bomb Rant. All right, we're doing. Let's not do 1.5. Cause I feel like we want.

[Aubrey Gordon]

You wanna really let it breathe, you know? Okay, yeah, this is when you become like a garbage clip Somalier.

[Donell Rellings]

By the way, they didn't just test it, they sprayed them with gay bombs. If you're a new listener, just type in tested gay bomb on. They consider. No, they didn't consider using it. They've used it on our troops in Vietnam. They'd spray PCP on the troops. Jacob's ladder. Jacob, you think pcp? Some horse tranquilizer, something. They got stuff that'll whack your brain permanently. They give the troops special vaccines that are really nanotech that already re engineer their brains.

[Michael Hobbs]

And then he cuts to Wikipedia.

[Donell Rellings]

Yeah, there it is, the gay bomb. Look it up for yourself. I mean, this is what they're. What do you think tap water is? It's a gay bomb, baby. And I'm not saying people didn't naturally have homosexual feelings. I'm not even getting into it, quite frankly. I mean, give me a break.

[Michael Hobbs]

Let's be responsible.

[Donell Rellings]

You think I. I'm like, oh, shocked by it. So I'm up here bashing it because I don't like gay people. I don't like them putting chemicals in the water that turn the friggin frogs gay. Do you understand that?

[Michael Hobbs]

He's clarifying his views.

[Donell Rellings]

Crap. I'm sick of being social engineers. It's not funny. Okay. Damn it. Just dropped a bunch of stuff off the side of here. I need those articles. Somebody.

[Michael Hobbs]

I can do that. Now because I have a mic.

[Donell Rellings]

I apologize to the family audience. I'm going to settle down. I haven't done the in months, and I'm just. I just cannot handle it anymore. I apologize. I apologize. Jesus, forgive me. Let me just get back to the news. Thank you. Children becoming hunchbacks due to addiction to smartphones again.

[Michael Hobbs]

Sounds real.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That's all. Michael. The amount of restraint it took me to not play the entire 11 minutes.

[Michael Hobbs]

I know I kind of want to keep going.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So I have to collect myself. I have watched this so many times.

[Michael Hobbs]

I was about to make fun of him for, like, working himself up into a lather and being like, I can't do this anymore. And then I remembered what we do for a living.

[Aubrey Gordon]

That's our whole thing.

[Michael Hobbs]

The whole thing.

[Aubrey Gordon]

We live in a glass house of I'm not gonna do this anymore.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, who. Who can say that they're better than the gay blonde guy?

[Aubrey Gordon]

So the lead into this and the lead out of this little segment is him genuinely just, like, leafing through pages of stapled packets of printed out Internet news stories.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's so fucking funny, though. Like, all the papers on his desk, which makes it seem sort of like always going through and, like, reading the studies and stuff. Like, this man has not read, like, a complete sentences in his entire life.

[Aubrey Gordon]

No. And also, like, an intern printed out 100% of these and he's literally reading off headlines.

[Michael Hobbs]

Also. Wait, I need to go to the gay bomb wiki entry.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Michael, this was exactly the thing we were just gonna do. Don't even go to.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay, okay, okay, okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Don't even go to the wiki entry. I'm gonna tell you the timestamp. So you're gonna just keep your thing on pause.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And take yourself to 528ish, somewhere in that neighborhood.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And then we're just gonna go full screen.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

What does that full screen say, Mike? It says, sources remain unclear and it has insufficient citations.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And then it says the halitosis bomb and gay bomb are informal names for two theoretical non lethal chemical weapons that a US Air Force research laboratory speculated about producing. So if you pause the show that you're watching when you're watching Alex Jones.

[Donell Rellings]

Yeah, yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It fully debunks itself.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's also very funny to me because even if you could produce this bomb, it's not like homosexuality just turns you into this, like, rapacious, like, sex wanter immediately. Like, if I was, like, in my house and, like, cutting vegetables and all of a sudden, like, some vapor came in the room that made me straight, I would just keep cutting vegetables. Like, my life wouldn't immediately change.

[Aubrey Gordon]

You wouldn't flip over your cutting board and just, like, tear into some raw beef.

[Michael Hobbs]

This only works if you think that gay people are, like, driven mad immediately, like, by their gayness.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So Alex Jones actually doesn't specifically mention soy in this clip, but I think it's a really good indicator of sort of where the right is at on, again, this perceived threat to white masculinity, right? That this whole thing is about, like, they're turning frogs gay and there's the gay bomb. And all of this sort of stuff is really sort of softening the ground for this. For this soy panic stuff.

[Michael Hobbs]

So I guess what we've got so far is like the Men's Health article and the Alex Jones clip are basically two ends of the spectrum of the same concept, right? It's like the Men's Health one is like the most respectable form of the idea that, like, oh, the science says that phytoestrogens, blah, blah, blah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Michael Hobbs]

And then Alex Jones is a completely out in outer space version of it that is just like, you're drinking chemicals and now you're gay sort of thing. But basically there's a wide spectrum of ideology that is getting this message that, like, there is some threat to masculinity and it's like, through the form of food.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, absolutely. Like, part of what we're seeing here is that depending on what you ingest, you could become a gay frog. You could grow breasts.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right?

[Aubrey Gordon]

All of this stuff is sort of getting reached for through this particular portal of, like, it's about things that you ingest.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's also very interesting to me that it's like, it's turning the frogs gay and that's a threat to masculinity when, like, you can be gay and masculine.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Right?

[Michael Hobbs]

Like, my Grindr profile says mask for masc. No, It's a very important value for me, as everyone knows.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So. So that Alex Jones freakout is in 2015. And again, like, all of these things are doing just little things and little things and little things to sort of ratchet this conversation up. It's not until 2017 that we get the emergence of soy boy as, like, an insult, right? Oh, the history of who first used soy boy as a pejorative is disputed.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

There are some folks who say that the first appearance was a 4chan comment of someone just calling someone else a soy boy cuckold.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Some folks claim it was Mike Cernovich do you know Mike Cernovich?

[Michael Hobbs]

He's just like a far right guy. Wasn't he the Pizzagate guy?

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, he's a blogger. He's a far right dude. He's big in the manosphere. His sort of claim or the thing that he's credited with in all of this is posting the following image.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, no. You're going to show it to me.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I'm showing it to you. I'm sorry that the image quality is so tiny and small.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay. Oh my fucking God. So it's an image meme of like a bunch of dudes in suits and he superimposed a bunch of those, like pussy hats from the women's march on top of them. And then the header says the soy boys. And then it says under that soy boy slang used to describe males who completely and utterly lack all necessary masculine qualities. This pathetic state is usually achieved by an overindulgence of emasculating products and or ideologies. Oh, so products like tofu and SJW podcasts.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Mike, I feel like you've missed a critical part of the sort of text of this image, and that might be down to the low resolution. Those people are Stephen Colbert, Conan O'Brien, James Corden, Jimmy Kimmel, John Oliver, Seth Meyers, Jimmy Fallon, Bill Maher, Larry Wilmore, and Trevor Noah.

[Michael Hobbs]

Well, Bill Maher's kind of a soy boy, but everybody else, that's mean.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So it's like a picture of late night show hosts.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah. Why is this. Why is this what they're mad at?

[Aubrey Gordon]

I tried to find the source tweet, but it's been deleted. So I don't know. Regardless of which one of these absolute fucking gremlins started it. This is the year 2017 that the concept of the soy boy sort of took off online. There's a far right YouTuber who releases a video called the Truth about Soy Face and it just gets tons and tons of views. That YouTuber is named Paul Joseph Watson.

[Michael Hobbs]

I knew he was gonna be in there.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Tell me what you know about Paul Joseph Watson. Cause I didn't know shit about shit.

[Michael Hobbs]

He's. I don't. Is it a real accent? He's British.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I think he's from Sheffield.

[Michael Hobbs]

Wasn't he on Alex Jones show? Wasn't he an Infowars guy? He was like a little. He was a little like, like Karate Kid to like Alex Jones's Mr. Miyagi.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He was an Infowars employee for a very long time, starting in 2002.

[Michael Hobbs]

Employee. Imagine filling out your W2 with, like.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Infowars LLC, imagine listing Alex Jones as a reference. The content is all exactly what you would expect from a longtime Infowars staffer. Right. He's got a bunch of conspiracy theories about Islamic takeovers. He's just doing the, like, explicit, proud misogyny, transphobia, racism.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

And particularly when it comes to soy. He calls the popularization of soy, quote, a globalist chemical warfare program. For the uninitiated, globalist is used as an antisemitic dog whistle, Right?

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It is built on the idea for many that the world is run by, like, a secret kabut of Jewish people.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's also the same thing of, like, they. They maintain just enough plausible deniability to be like, well, we never said it was anti Semitic.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It's like the ringtone that only teenagers can hear.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

You just say globalist and only racist or, like, Jewish people.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So that's 2018. The next stop in our story is a very weird one. It takes us to a trade publication from the plains states in 2019 when a veterinarian publishes a piece in his local trade publication, the Tri State Livestock News.

[Michael Hobbs]

Okay.

[Aubrey Gordon]

He wrote a piece focused on the Impossible Whopper that included the absolute banger of a line quote, here's to hoping that the Impossible Whopper is a possible flopper.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, God. That's like something we would try. Try as a tagline and be like, oh, even for you, Mike, I would.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I would fire you for that. Yeah. So the idea behind this piece is that the main ingredient in impossible meat and beyond meat is soy. So in this piece, he claims that, quote, an Impossible Whopper has 18 million times as much estrogen as a regular Whopper. And he directly says that eating four impossible Whoppers per day would, quote, grow boobs on a male.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, God.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Estrogen. He says 18 million times as much estrogen. There is no estrogen.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It's phytoestrogens, which are similar, but a different thing.

[Michael Hobbs]

Is he just, like, making this number up? Where is anybody getting this?

[Aubrey Gordon]

He's just pulling this shit out of thin air, okay? And like, listen, listen. This piece went viral.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

This goes so far and wide that at one point, this guy gets a call from a reporter at the Atlantic who is like, hey, do you want to say anything about how far and wide this has gone? And he was like, yeah, we published a retraction. I didn't expect this to go that far and wide. I understand now that I'm wrong, and I wish I'd never Written it like he, like, really goes hard on, like, I fucked this up. But that doesn't get, of course, anywhere near as far. Right.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It's not until 2021 that the mainstream mainstream of the GOP really keys into sort of soy panic and the masculinity crisis.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right. So wait, how many years from Alex Jones are we. It's like, from Alex Jones to, like, Ted Cruz. Yeah.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Six years. Six years. Exactly. Exactly six years.

[Michael Hobbs]

That's actually a little slower than it usually takes.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So 2021 is when Josh Hawley starts talking about masculinity stuff more. This is when J.D. vance has his, like, garbage tweets about Kyle Rittenhouse being, like, an issue of, like, broken homes and fathers and abandoning our boys and all of that. In 2021, Jody Ernst, who's a Republican from Iowa, introduces a bill called the Telling Agencies to Stop Tweaking what Employees Eat Act.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, that has to stand for something.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Which is the Tasty Act. Oh, God. The Tasty act would ban Meatless Mondays in federal buildings.

[Michael Hobbs]

This is such pussy shit. Stop banning stuff that you don't like. It's so bizarre to me. It's turning me into one of these fucking men's rights guys. I'm like, this is the pussification of America as men. Fucking moaning about shit like this all the time.

[Aubrey Gordon]

This narrative really reaches a crescendo, actually last year when Tucker Carlson released a documentary called the End of Men.

[Michael Hobbs]

The Red Ball. The Red Ball Obelisk documentary.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, absolutely. Red light Scrotum tanning, which we both.

[Michael Hobbs]

Refused to Google because we're like, oh, my God, we're not going to spend time on this.

[Aubrey Gordon]

But then I did spend time on it. I watched it. I watched it a couple of times. Times, Mike. Terrible.

[Michael Hobbs]

Jesus Christ.

[Aubrey Gordon]

We're not going to go into it here, cuz I want to do a bonus episode on it. Because every sentence in it is the most bananas nonsense you've ever heard.

[Michael Hobbs]

Rich text.

[Aubrey Gordon]

But I did want to share this one portion. It's a quote from someone who calls himself the Raw Egg Nationalist.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh, what?

[Aubrey Gordon]

What are those words?

[Michael Hobbs]

In that order? What?

[Aubrey Gordon]

I love that you and I are both like, join me. This is gross.

[Michael Hobbs]

God. Can we as a society agree on one fucking thing? Raw eggs. Can we all just agree, don't eat fucking raw eggs, guys.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Not if you're talking to the Raw Egg Nationalist.

[Michael Hobbs]

Here we have one thing.

[Aubrey Gordon]

I just sent you a quote. This is something that Raw Egg Nationalist says in this documentary that really sort of encapsulates quite A bit of his message as far as I can tell.

[Michael Hobbs]

Oh my God, this is such a masterpiece. Aubrey, you're welcome. The enemy today is what I like to call soy globalism. The globalist aim is to destroy nations and global communities. And they do this by isolating communities and sickening them through food and also through so called medicine and all the chemicals we're exposed to on a daily basis. The globalists want you to be fat, sick, depressed and isolated, the better to control you and milk you for as much economic value as they can before they kill you. By making an individual strong, you make a nation strong.

[Aubrey Gordon]

It's wild that it is. Like such deep fringe, horrifying conspiracy theories. And this aired on Fox News.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah, like a normal mainstream.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah, this is shit that is on TV and a lot of people are watching it.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's also, it's so disingenuous to where he says, like, they want to milk you for as much economic value as they can. Okay, great. So you support a higher minimum wage then, right?

[Donell Rellings]

No.

[Michael Hobbs]

Yeah. You support unions, right?

[Donell Rellings]

No.

[Michael Hobbs]

So what are we? It's like they use these arguments, but they don't actually believe any of this shit. Right. They're just preying on people who are like low information enough that they don't know the actual ideology behind this stuff. Because none of these people are going to make your life any better.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Yeah. I mean, it's also wild to just think through all of this and be like, man, there are so many legit things to worry about with CIS men's health health, but none of them are this.

[Michael Hobbs]

Get your prostate checked, get your regular.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Screenings, get your prostate checked, get your fucking vaccines, get your shingles vaccines. Like, go to the doctor regularly. Right. Like there's like a bunch of stuff that we could actually actively be working on with CIS dudes.

[Michael Hobbs]

So, yeah, I feel like the biggest thing with sisters these days is like depression and loneliness and like suicides and like potentially drug overdoses. It's like, yeah, there's real problems that I think are like, absolutely worth taking seriously. But like, to take them seriously, you have to talk about the actual problem.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So now we're in this place where sort of the cat's out of the bag, right? Like, yeah, I think we're at a point now where it is kind of threatening to tip from a far right idea to a center right idea. That's already happened, but from a center right idea back to being sort of a mainstream myth. Yeah, yeah, about. And that part makes me nervous also.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's so. It's weirdly important to these, like, man gurus or something that, like, masculinity has to be under attack all the time. They have this, like, strange conception where it's like, masculinity is like this all powerful thing, but also, like, it can crumble down at the slightest poke.

[Aubrey Gordon]

This sort of like, masculinity under attack, the war on Christmas, all of that shit is a way of being like, I'm actually just defending myself and you're the one who's attacking me.

[Michael Hobbs]

Right, right. This is self defense.

[Aubrey Gordon]

So, like, it allows people to do this weird Jedi mind trick with themselves. Right?

[Michael Hobbs]

Because it's also. It's like, yeah, if you don't want to eat tofu, don't eat tofu. Not everybody likes tofu. It's totally fine. If you don't want to go see Barbie, don't go see Barbie. It's not like it's fine.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Nobody gives a shit.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's like the weird. There's something so fucking insecure about all of this stuff. And, like, I don't want to call these people, like, soy beta cucks because that's like, problematic to invoke, but it is like, by their own fucking standards of ma masculinity, this is not alpha behavior.

[Aubrey Gordon]

This is some real beta.

[Michael Hobbs]

It's some beta, dude. Take it from a 5 foot 6 podcaster with huge hands.

[Aubrey Gordon]

Take it from the leftist podcaster who's.

[Michael Hobbs]

Gay that you've been dying SJW podcaster. This carpal tunnel does not allow him to get in fights. But still sa.