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Making It with Jon Davids
150 - “I Spent 15 Months With GaryVee, Then This Happened” | Maha Abouelenein, Digital and Savvy
00:40:02
Jon () sits down with the CEO of Digital and Savvy; Maha Abouelenein. Maha runs a super successful PR firm and has some incredible insights and tips when it comes to growing your business in the real world and online. If you want your business to grow...
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- [00:00]
John Davids
What's up guys? JD here. And on today's show, I am talking with Maha Abou Elanin, who is a communications expert. She runs PR for a little known influencer named Gary Vaynerchuk. She's also run one of the world's biggest PR firms, Weber Shandwick, in multiple countries. She has so much valuable advice and she actually just wrote a book, seven Rules of Self Reliance. There it is right there. I really enjoyed it. And today we're gonna get into the weeds. We're talking how to build a brand for your business, for yourself, cancel culture, crisis management, and a whole lot more. If you want to grow your business and get a lot of attention in the real world on the Internet, pay attention to this episode. If you enjoy the podcast, make sure to like, subscribe. Tell a friend, of course. Get on the newsletter@johndavids.com now let's get to the episode. You're listening to Making it with John Davids. Maha, welcome to the show. So I was looking at your book the other day. Awesome book. But the first thing I noticed when I open the COVID I see testimonials from Gary Vaynerchuk and Deepak Chopra and Matt Higgins and CEOs and CMOs and people from all over the place. So before I even get into it, who are you and why should people pay attention?
- [01:30]
Maha Abou Elanin
Thank you so much for having me. So I am American, Egyptian, born and raised in Minnesota, lived in Minnesota until I was 27. I'm 100% Egyptian. Both of my parents are Egyptian. And after being born, raised, living, growing up here in the States, my parents decided to move back to Egypt and I had. I'm from Egypt, I'm Egyptian, but I didn't live there. So at 27, I moved to Egypt. Didn't know the language, didn't have any friends, didn't have a business network, didn't even have a job. I had been working at General Mills in sports marketing. I worked for cool brands. I was access to sports. It was like the coolest job ever. I moved to Egypt. I need to find a job. So I was going to work at kind of Pepsi or Coca Cola. Ended up working as an office manager for a billionaire. And that actually changed my life. I thought I was overqualified, I shouldn't do this job. But it ended up being the smartest and the best thing that ever happened to me. I continued to have a great career in the Middle East. I was head of communications at Google. I built 18 offices for Weber Shandwick, a PR firm in the Middle East, I launched Netflix in the Middle East. I worked for the ruler of Dubai. I worked in a lot of tech companies. Kareem Uber entered the Middle east market and acquired and did a joint venture with the local Middle Eastern ride hailing company called Karim. And I ran their communications and I do comms. I've been working for some high net worth individuals. I've been working with some of the biggest companies and brands in the world, the Googles, the Netflix, the targets, those kind of companies. And I wrote a book not about communications, it's more about the how. How did I succeed in working with some of these biggest names and companies in the world and kind of skills and experiences that people can learn from this? And I put it in a playbook.
- [03:14]
John Davids
Okay, wow, you just said a lot of words. So let's just rewind for one second. So you had me at I worked for a billionaire, I ran his office. What does that mean?
- [03:26]
Maha Abou Elanin
Yeah, it's actually, I actually got offered this job as an office manager and I thought, oh, I'm too overqualified. Like, I'm born and raised in the us I'm US educated. I have a master's degree and the office manager, you know, I didn't have the foresight because I talked to my dad about it when I went home, like, oh, I got offered to be the office manager and he's like, if I were you, I would take the job. The office manager in the Middle east is like a chief of staff. Like you don't know anybody, you just moved here. Everyone you know coming into his office or out of his office is an opportunity for you to create a network for you to meet people, to actually learn about the business. If you get a front row seat to be an admin for a CEO or a chairman, which is close to the sun, take it. You learn about the business, you learn about how they take you learn about every aspect of the business that you could probably bring value to the company. And I just sat and listened and learned for months. I wanted to figure out, how does he tick? What's an opportunity for me to bring value? Where could I volunteer for a project? And I was just patient. I put my head down, I delivered what he wanted me to do, and then I started making suggestions, trying to add a nugget here, a nugget there, asking if I can sit in our meeting, asking if I can volunteer to help. And then I ended up changing my role. Like I think four or five months into the job, I worked on the largest IPO in the history of Egypt. The largest acquisition in the history of Egypt ended up traveling with the Chairman during the ipo. Like, I ended up having an incredible opportunity, but I had to, like, put my head down, put outside my ego, put in the hard work, and then try to demonstrate to him where I can add value to him.
- [05:00]
John Davids
That really is the hardest part of all, the part you said at the end there. Putting your ego aside is something that a lot of people wouldn't do. I mean, even the title itself, Chief of Staff is one thing, but office manager makes it sound like you're grabbing coffee and filing papers. But if you can get a seat at the table, or at least even serve water at the table, at least you're in the room.
- [05:19]
Maha Abou Elanin
Yeah. And I tried to, like, you know, once in a while he'd say, why don't you come in and take notes? And I'm like, now I'm in the room. Now I'm like, what are they talking about? I really tried to read every piece of paper going into the office, every piece of paper coming out so I can, like, humbled myself to, like, learn. Like, I didn't know people, I didn't have any experience in this field, so I really had to, like, put in the hard work, put my head down and not really think about what's in it for me, but of, like, trying to create value for him, trying to create value for the company. This is the role he has for me now, but that doesn't mean that this is the role I have to continue in. I should make it into the job I want it to be. And so I need to be educated. I need to learn about the business. I need to learn about all aspects of the company. And it was a front row seat to doing that. And I didn't have that foresight. To see if you get an opportunity to take a job where you can learn versus earn, you should do it. You know, you should think about, is there an opportunity for me to learn something extraordinary by working with this company, working with this client, working with this person, then that's valuable. It's not always going to be money or title. You should always think about the opportunity to learn something that's going to be a stepping stone for the next big thing.
- [06:28]
John Davids
I've heard other people, early employees at Google, early employees at Airbnb, all kind of use the same thought process of, I'm going to take a job, I'm not even sure what I'm going to be doing. They're not sure what I'M going to be doing, but there's a good fit here. And then you get in and you mold that position. You use your skillset to add value very quickly. It doesn't matter what your title is. If you're adding value to the bottom line, if you're making the CEO happy, if you're doing stuff that is beneficial to that company, they're not going to let you go. They're going to find a better place for you.
- [06:59]
Maha Abou Elanin
Yeah. And it's one of the rules in the book that I talk about about be a long term player. Like, try to think about what's the long term play here. And there's another rule in the book, which is how to be a value creator. Like, come in, try to bring value, whether it's big or small, so that you can show what your experience is, you can show what your knowledge is so you can show the contributions you can make and that will lead to a bigger and a better opportunity. But you have to be willing to put your head down and do the hard work first and let that be what rises and let that what speaks for itself.
- [07:30]
John Davids
Okay, so on that note, let's talk about the crazy story of the first time you met Gary Vee. You almost didn't meet him. You stayed a while later to maybe meet him and then you went through a whole thing. Tell us the Gary Vee story.
- [07:44]
Maha Abou Elanin
Yeah, so I born and raised in Minnesota, but I was living in Egypt. And every summer I come home to Minnesota. I come home from June 1st to September 1st and I spend time with my family in Minnesota. And one summer I was home, I was at the bookstore. And my friend from Dubai, because I was living in Dubai at the time, texted me. She's like, what are you doing? I'm like, actually, I'm at a bookstore. I need to find a book to read. What do you suggest? And she's like, there's this book by Gary V. Called Crush It. It's a very small book and it's about if you have a passion, if you have something that you care about, you should build a personal brand around it. So I read the book. It's a very short book. It's actually somewhere here on my bookshelf. And after I read the book, I was like, huh, maybe I should be a personal brand. Like, I've done communications for the biggest companies in the world. I've worked with really cool people in government and nonprofit. Maybe I should think about helping people communicate and scaling what I do without giving away the Google Playbook. Or the Netflix Playbook. But just generally, what did I learn or what did I advise these companies? So like most people, after I read the book, I started following Gary. And Gary puts out a ton of content. You can't possibly watch every single video. And he was doing a lot of long form. This is 2016, 2017 content on YouTube. And so I watched a video he did with a woman named Cy Wakeman and she had wrote a book and she was on his show promoting her book and I was just captivated by her. So one of the things Gary talks about in the book is DMing people or commenting on their posts. And I'm like, oh, I've never done that before. It seems awkward and fangirlish. I'm not going to do that. But I really was taken by her. So I did and I actually offered to do something for her that I don't do. I just said, oh, I loved you so much. And what you said, I'd love for you to come speak in the Middle East. And I don't have a speaker's bureau, I have a PR firm in Cairo and in Dubai at the time, but I don't book speakers. Anyways, a couple months passed. One of my friends needed a speaker for an event. I'm like, oh, I know somebody. I mean, I don't know her, but I know somebody. Let me see if I can DM her and try to get her to come to Egypt and speak at this event. Very long story short, we got her through my dm, knew how to talk and kind of pitched the right way, got her on call with the organizer. She came to Egypt and she brought with her her videographer. And her videographer worked for Gary. And I didn't know that until he was in Egypt and we were filming and we were chit chatting in the car and I found out that he didn't work for Psy, he actually worked for VaynerMedia. They had a division at the time called Vayner Talent. And so I said, I wanna meet Gary, I really wanna meet Gary because I opened Weber Shandwick's PR offices. I wanna do the same in for Gary for VaynerMedia. And so he's like, I don't do that. Like I'm not in charge of that, but I'll connect you to the people who do. And so I talked to his business development person, he's like, okay, next time you New York, let me know. So I went to New York like two weeks later. I ended up having like, he said, I'll get you 15 minutes with Gary. Spent probably an hour with Gary. And then I was like, let's do business in the Middle East. And so there is where it began about. For like, I don't know, 15 months or so. I don't remember. I put the details in the book. I was working with Gary's office and his team explaining the Middle east, trying to, you know, give them value, explain how the market works. What are the differences between Asia, Dubai and Saudi.
- [10:59]
John Davids
But in the book you talk about this 15 month period. Just so you know about. You were working for free. Like you. I don't know if you were working for the office or you were just giving advice, volunteering.
- [11:08]
Maha Abou Elanin
Yeah, I was trying to bring value. I'm trying to bring value. I'm trying to put deposits in his trust bank. And then like we would have a call and then he was like, well, come meet me in Cannes. And then I'd have. He kept on giving me all these hoops to kind of go through, like, meet me in can. I mean, he's running a business, he's not just sitting around free. So like, I'm like, can we talk? And I would like try to tell him, like, this is why you should come. And then finally, after talking for months and months and months and meeting him in different places around the world, I'm like, well, can we work together? And he's like, well, I'd love to come. I can't do business in the Middle east without actually being there, so I'd love to come to Dubai. And I'm like, great, when do you want to come? And he's like, no, I need to like, come and speak. And I want to like, have a visit and all this kind of stuff. So I organized for Gary to come. He came to Egypt. There's a seven hour vlog about it on YouTube. He spoke to a throng of supporters, you know, was on billboards, was on the COVID of magazine. He was literally a rock star. It was his first time to the region. People were so excited to meet him. He is the entrepreneur that everybody loves and listens to, especially in the Middle East. They listen to his podcast, they read his books. And then at the end of that trip, I met him in December, this was the following November. He said, well, let's work together. And so I didn't get a contract till the following March, so you can do the math. But yeah, I mean, it took. It was a long time of making deposits in the trust bank trying to bring value. But I knew what he Valued. He valued getting to know someone. He valued spending time with them. He valued seeing how people operate in their own elements. And so I worked at his speed and we've been together now for December, there'll be seven years.
- [12:41]
John Davids
And what gave you. So, I mean, as a story, this all goes very quick and it sounds all nice and it's tied up in a bow, but the reality is you're putting in 15 months of free work, work that I would imagine you'd normally charge for. Certainly you charge for your time and you have other things going on. What gave you and what gives people, people who are listening now saying, okay, that sounds great, but I don't. Should I be giving 15 months of my free time?
- [13:04]
Maha Abou Elanin
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I feel like you have to be selective of who you do it for and why you're doing it. Right. So I was very careful of not using my team's resources and my company, who would have billable hours to do things for clients. So was my time. And I was also very, you know, you know, direct about what my ambitions and goals were. Like, I want to work with you. So I was patient. Like, I do play the long term game. Like, if I, I, you know, Gary doesn't even know who I am. Like, I just showed up at his office. Like, he didn't know who I was. So you have to build a relationship, you have to build trust, you have to be consistent. And that matters in business. And so those are all elements. When you look at the big picture, you can say, oh, she did 15 months of free work. No, I was 15 months of building a relationship, trying to build trust, trying to, you know, to see where the synergies would be, where the relationship could go. And so you need to be selective. You need to have a goal, you need to have a relationship with understanding what your risk and reward would be, like, what opportunity cost. How long was I willing to do that for? Not just for Gary, but I do it with other people, but not everybody. Like, I don't give away the house for free. I don't do my services for free. But I understood the value in that relationship was something I wanted to invest in. And I was the one that was driving. Like, I want to spend time, I want to invest time. Because I also learned so much from him. I have so much to gain from investing in this relationship. And building that over the long term was not only important I knew to him, but it was also really important to me.
- [14:36]
John Davids
Quick break. So I can tell you about Influicity. That's the little marketing agency I started in my apartment about 10 years ago. Well, fast forward. It is not so little anymore. Influicity works with some of the biggest brands in the world, building customer communities that drive revenue. We do this through influencers, podcasts, paid media, social media, content, AI and so much more. You can learn more@influicity.com and hey, while you're there, check out our case studies. We have a lot of them. That's influicity.com it also sounds like you had something else going for you. So the thing that you actually did is you helped him open up vaynermedia in the Middle East.
- [15:17]
Maha Abou Elanin
And so we actually never even opened it, to be honest with you. We didn't. We didn't. We didn't open it. Hopefully someday we will. But we ended up working on his content and doing other projects together and doing other thing. That was the reason we met. But that's. It actually turned into so much more. We haven't actually. He's never opened Invader Meter in the Middle east yet, but I'm sure.
- [15:35]
John Davids
Okay, so you. So that. That was the plan. And I'm guessing the reason you. You thought or you felt that you would be a good fit for that was because you had experience running agencies, running PR firms, comms firms in the Middle East. You said, okay, I can take this brand and put it here. In the end, it didn't work, but you still got a relationship out of it.
- [15:53]
Maha Abou Elanin
Yeah. And I feel like sometimes too, like, if you see there' opportunity or you see that there's a place for you to create value. Like, I'm uniquely qualified because I am Egyptian, I speak Arabic, I understand the market. I've been there for 23 years. I have deep relationships with CEOs and government and media. So, like, I wanted to think about what's the one thing I can do to bring value to him. He has an operation with more than a thousand people. He has offices worldwide. He has lots of team members. I have to always think, if it's Gary or anybody else, what's the thing that I can uniquely bring value to? And what lane can I be in that I can be valuable in for that client or that person? And so you need to think about that. Like, he has everything, access on his fingertips to do anything he wants to do in the world, really. He has team members and offices around the world. But I thought, like, this is a region or a market that's. That's new, that's not. That's unknown. That's still up and coming. That's still something that he might want to discover. So that's what I was trying to come in and bring value in something I knew I was quite qualified to share and to bring that experience to the table.
- [16:56]
John Davids
What do you think of the concept or the requirement of having a personal brand right now in 2024? Do you think it's overblown? Do you think it's too much hype? Or do you think there's still opportunity and reason for people to do it?
- [17:09]
Maha Abou Elanin
I love this question so much. Okay, so it's essential. It's non. It's a non negotiable for me and anyone that I talk to. And here's how I want you to think about it. Your reputation is your personal brand. So a lot of people see the word personal brand. They're like, hey, Maha, I'm not a company. I don't want to be a social media influencer. That's not what I'm talking about. Your personal brand is your reputation. Replace the term personal brand with reputation and then tell me you don't care about your reputation. Right? In a world today where you are an entrepreneur, if you don't have a strong personal brand, that is reputation, you won't be able to recruit talent, you won't be able to recruit investors for your business. You will have a harder time probably getting the right suppliers or partners that you want. So you need to have a strong personal brand. You need to have a strong reputation. And I always think even too, for people who work at companies like, if you don't have a good reputation, team player, problem solver, collaborator, listener, you're not going to get that promotion, you're not going to get assigned those big projects. So everyone needs to think about their reputation and not just online. It's, in fact, it's more important what you do offline. How do you treat people? How do you build that culture? How do you treat your team members, your colleagues, your coworkers, your barista? All of that stuff matters. So I feel in a world where AI takes place and remote working, where you really need to know how to build relationships through these environments, having a strong personal brand is not a nice to have, it's a must have.
- [18:46]
John Davids
And you talk about it as a reputation, and I hear you on that. I was talking a few weeks ago to Jason Pfeiffer, the editor of Entrepreneur magazine. I asked him the same question. I said, does personal brand matter when you're, I don't know, running a hot dog Stand or you're the finance person at a software company. And his answer was that there's a distinction between the size of the brand and the content of the brand. So you can have a social media presence with a million followers or 100,000 or 20 followers. It's really what matters, is what content are you putting out there? So that when someone looks you up online, they see something that you want them to see. Do you think reach is important or you think it's more about the content?
- [19:32]
Maha Abou Elanin
I think it's more about what your intentions are to put out. You want to represent yourself, because if you aren't doing something to build and protect your reputation, I can bet you that somebody else is doing it for you and it's not not what you want. Right. So making sure when people Google you or look you up on Instagram or look you up on LinkedIn, they're finding things that you want to share about yourself instead of having things be on the Internet or in the public domain that you didn't put out there yourself. So think about it, and think about it with intention. Like, okay, like, I have to protect my reputation. Nobody's going to do it for me. And I wrote a whole chapter in the book about your reputation as your currency. Think of your reputation as a currency. What's its worth? What's its value? How do you protect it? How do you build it? And I feel like it's really, really important to ask yourself, what do I want to be known for? What am I known for? What do I want people to know about me? And your personal brand is not just your personal life. Like, it's exactly. I really tell people, personal branding is not your personal life. It's your skills, it's your experience, it's your personality. So why don't you work on making sure that whatever people find is stuff that you've put out there?
- [20:42]
John Davids
I saw something in your book, I saw the words cancel culture, and it just set off this whole bunch of questions in my head. So I've got a few questions on this.
- [20:50]
Maha Abou Elanin
Got it.
- [20:50]
John Davids
I'm asking this really selfishly for myself. So people in general, you talk about entrepreneurship, talk about business, talk about money, travel, whatever you want to talk about. And then you get into subjects that are more sensitive and more fire brands online, talk about politics, talk about, you know, get into things where people are very opinionated. What's your take on delving into that sometimes cesspool of content? Do you think it's a good idea? Because you can get lots of attention Lots of clicks. Or do you think, no, stay away from that. Unless it's your actual profession.
- [21:22]
Maha Abou Elanin
Yeah, I'm on the latter. I guess I really would say, like, it's really easy to get sucked in to weighing in and giving your point of view. When things are hot and contested, people have points of view, whether it's politics, geopolitical issues, social issues. And I feel like if you obviously stick to your values, you know, feel free to speak your mind. But you always be mindful. By that I mean, if you have employees, if that might threaten your ability to get customers or threaten their pay, their payroll or their paychecks, you should think twice about it. Like I might want to say my opinion that may harm my business, it might harm my clients, it might harm my employees. So I think twice about it. Like sometimes we get so emotionally cut up and we react or we tend to overreact and then a fluid situation unfolds and it's not what we thought it was, and then it's very difficult to retract that or to pull it back. So unless it's your job and you feel confident that you're not putting yourself or the safety of your company, your reputation of your company, your employees, your brands, your teams in any jeopardy, then I would go ahead. But I, even for me, like, there's a lot of things I care passionately about. I just don't do it in public. I might do it through friends or family or other means because I don't want to jeopardize my team or my clients or their livelihood in any way. And because of cancel culture, people are very quick to judge and quick to respond and, and things can go out of hand very, very quickly and viral very quickly. And it's very difficult to claw back from those situations. So try not to put yourself in that situation to begin with. Take a minute. Everyone needs to just take a deep breath and take a minute.
- [23:07]
John Davids
Okay, so what do you think you're advising, let's say a mid sized company or a larger company and you know, should the CEO weigh in on this war, this person, this candidate, is that. I almost feel like in some, in, you know, in the last year or two, it's almost like it's been an obligation. Like if you, if you stay silent, you're actually harming with your silence. Do you think it's a tough spot? I mean, do you think that's, that's the reality or do you think most people just think, listen, keep your mouth shut, no one wants to hear about it?
- [23:36]
Maha Abou Elanin
No it's definitely difficult. Like you, you don't want to be complicit, you don't want to be like tone deaf. You don't want to be like silent. Like you don't have feelings and you're not human, you're not emotion that you don't feel anything. But like I said, you always have to look at the context. What's the context of the situation? Sometimes we tend to overreact and we feel we need to say something and then everyone does it. Like bandwagoning. It's just, it's not helpful to the conversation you have to look at. Is it apply to your business? Does it really matter to your customers? Then you have to make a judgment call on what you think is best for your business on the short term and on the long term.
- [24:12]
John Davids
Do you think cancel culture is still a hot button thing? Has that cooled down or are you still seeing it with your clients going to be there?
- [24:20]
Maha Abou Elanin
Yeah, it's always going to be there. I feel like it's, it's healthy in some ways to have that barometer of like, oh, I don't want to do something that's like going to harm other people's feelings. I feel like in a good way, like people are mindful that they're going to, they don't want to say something offensive or do something that's going to offend other people. So I feel like it's teaching us a lot about, you know, things we need to unlearn that are no longer helpful, no longer serving us. But I feel like yes, people are very quick to judge in a very sometimes unfair way. And then people really have a hard time recovering from those reputational, those reputational hits.
- [24:53]
John Davids
Let's talk about media in general and just like whether it's useful and I'm talking about old school. So like magazines, television, getting on the local 6:00 news. Is that something that, you know, business owners should be thinking about or is it really like, you know, think about Instagram, TikTok and that's where you should be.
- [25:10]
Maha Abou Elanin
Definitely. You definitely need to have media coverage and third parties talking about your business because, you know, a lot of companies are very good at social media, but that's direct to consumer stuff that they're putting out. So having that endorsement of a third party or that you've earned to be in the media, you've earned to be on the 6:00 news, which still matters. Even if you think people aren't watching tv, you can take that clip and put it on your social media. It's that credibility factor. It's getting that publicity is important. The fact that you've earned space on social media, you've earned space on a blog, on a TV show, on a network airtime, that's still valuable. And I feel like a lot of people need to see that. You have. You can't just be your own channels talking about yourself. It's the reputation gets built by other people talking about you and other people sharing those stories.
- [26:00]
John Davids
It's the credibility factor. You're not necessarily doing it for the reach.
- [26:04]
Maha Abou Elanin
Yeah, 100% is the credibility. I mean, that's why a lot of people want to be on CNBC and Bloomberg and Entrepreneur and Forbes. And it matters to get those profile stories. And so many startups, five guys, Warby Parker, you know, all of these companies, if you look at the history of all these famous startups, what changed their trajectory was an article or a news story came out that changed their business forever. Because that endorsement of someone saying, you know, Warby Parker is like the GQ of glasses or whatever the story was, that really changed their life. There's a story about it on How I built this with Guy Raz, that podcast. It's fascinating when I listen to a lot of those shows. What changed was a story came out about them and their business started to boom because people heard about it. And that still matters even. Even more so today.
- [26:55]
John Davids
Yeah. The biggest difference is that it used to be that if you could get. If there was a story on, let's say, 60 Minutes or a podcast like how I built this, that would be both the reach and the credibility. And now the reach can often come from somewhere else. But that credibility still is hard to come by. You can have 500,000 followers on TikTok, and I've never heard of you. I don't know who you are. It's not. It's not the same thing as saying, hey, I was featured on CNBC 100%.
- [27:23]
Maha Abou Elanin
And I feel like if you have a good story and you're really good at, you need to be thinking about all your channels of communications, your website, your newsletter. You need social media, but you do need to be active in the media, and you need to find a story that's newsworthy, that's timely, that's actually meaning the market in time where people care about listening to it and brings value to the audience. And so many of the media, they want to hear from executives, they want to get their news, they want that exclusivity, they want to understand something Going on behind the business beyond just numbers and facts. They really want to understand how these companies are contributing to sustainability or in the environment or the culture or the teams. I'm fascinated. I think of myself as a consumer. I love listening to these stories about how companies do things and how they're approaching things or a new idea that they're putting into the market. It's really what drives innovation is when you see what other companies are doing, it allows you to think, oh, I got to up my game and do something, something different.
- [28:23]
John Davids
Is AI changing the comms industry? I mean, it's a dumb question. Of course it is. How is AI changing your industry? I mean, I'm imagining everything from written content on the Internet to videos that we see. Like is it a big part of what you think about?
- [28:39]
Maha Abou Elanin
Yeah, I think for me, like even in my job, in my day to day, I have a communications firm. Like we use it for a lot of different tools. Like it's helping us become more efficient. Like you know, taking an interview and transcribing it in a second, taking clips and finding the best moments from those, doing research, looking up in, you know, other tools that we can use to help us with our day to day and our jobs. You know, storytelling is a very personal thing. You need to connect with a human to do that. Storytelling cannot be done the way that we work through AI, but we can use all the tools to help us in fact checking and gathering story content and putting together transcripts for stories. So for our business it's super, super important and makes us more efficient. But I always think like when you see a story on the news, you can tell if something has been or an article if it's been written by a human or written by an AI tool.
- [29:30]
John Davids
Yeah, I was looking the other day, I was looking at these, I had never heard of this before, but there are blogging tools that will actually write full on blog posts and news articles and they'll write the whole thing. These aren't like idea generators. They're, you know, they'll say here's the finished thing and you look at it and you say, okay, this was written by a robot. And I feel like I'm just, I'm worried. I can see this day a year or two from now where the Internet is just absolutely plastered with the worst content there is. And it's going to either it's going to make it easier for people with actual talent to do their job jobs, but it's also maybe going to just make it more noisy and competitive. To do anything.
- [30:05]
Maha Abou Elanin
Yeah. I think people are smart. They get. They know it. We're. We live in such a transparent society now where we can tell when somebody is pulling a fast one on us or it's not written by a human being. I feel like people are smart even one or two years down the road. Like, we know the difference between, you know, things that are written. The thing that it's difficult to decipher is images. Is that a real image or an AI image? Like, they're. They're so good right now that you cannot really tell the difference if that's a real picture or if that's an AI generated picture. That, to me is more, is bigger. It's a bigger difference than just the written word. I think the written. We can tell, but I think with images, you really can't.
- [30:43]
John Davids
Yeah. And on that note, one thing I've noticed on the content creation side, maybe you've seen this also on social. What people are doing now is like, they're making stuff with AI, but they're making it almost as parody, intentional parody. Like, they're not trying to fool you into thinking, oh, this is that person, and they're saying this thing. It's like, wouldn't it be so outrageous and funny if this happened? And I'm going to actually show you what it would look like if that did happen. But it's like the SNL version of that thing. They're not actually trying to pull a fast. I think actually a pretty creative art form.
- [31:13]
Maha Abou Elanin
Like the Pope wearing that Balenciaga puffer jacket. That was really classic. Okay. We could tell that was fake, but it was fun to see how you can manipulate an image like that. And everyone. A lot of people thought it was.
- [31:26]
John Davids
Real, but I remember that. But even like, there was Trump and Kamala Harris at the. It looked like they were at a festival, like a carnival or something. You see this video? No, it was like, completely obviously not real. But they're like, you know, playing the carnival games. They're going on a Ferris wheel. And it was actually a very heartwarming style video. But it was like, oh, okay, this is clearly not what it looks like, but it's an interesting way to parody the situation.
- [31:54]
Maha Abou Elanin
I didn't see that. I mean, it's just. That just talks about that. But I think, yeah, I mean, and then.
- [31:59]
John Davids
Okay, so let's fast forward now. We're talking, let's say two, three years from now. Do you think really people should just invest in the platforms as they exist today? Do you think people should Maybe focus on one thing, double down on whether it's your newsletter or your LinkedIn or your TikTok. Or do you think it's better to diversify because we don't know what's going to happen and what platforms are going to be big in three years from now?
- [32:20]
Maha Abou Elanin
I think it's smart to diversify. Like it's we. You can't predict what's going to happen in the future. But just like most business opportunities or how you run your business, think about now putting all your eggs in one basket and making sure. Because there's different audiences. Like, some audiences are LinkedIn audiences, some people are Instagram. So if you want to build your business, you need to talk to different people and you need to reach different audiences. And I feel like we need to just hedge yourself against all the different. Like, who knows if TikTok will go down. So don't put all your eggs in the TikTok basket. Like, try to build your brand. I'm not saying being everywhere, but do pick a couple of platforms where you know you can be consistent, where you can reach your audiences, and whatever your business goals are, you're able to do that to reach them. I feel like a lot of companies now understand the value of having your own email database and having your own customers off platform. I feel like that's something that I certainly learned is really, really important. I never, I've had my company for 20 years. I never had an email database of my. Of like customers. I just got business from word of mouth and other people. I never did that kind of lead marketing and generating lists. And there's a value in that. There's a value in having your own community that's not tied to a platform that really understands your business. So you can go deeper with them. You can talk to them about topics they care about. You can bring them into your services. You can get feedback from them. That's extraordinarily valuable. And I feel like one of the tips I would give companies investing is take time to build that. Because the time to start was yesterday. Because it takes time to build an email database. And even if you feel like you have a lot of emails in your inbox now, people you talk to, those aren't necessarily target customers, future clients, people you want to grow into your business to sell your products, the tools that you can do now on the Internet with email databases and seeing if somebody was on your site and then send them an email to bring them back on, it's extraordinary.
- [34:11]
John Davids
Yeah, email is probably the most powerful first party data you could have because of both getting in touch with them directly and also retargeting through advertising like that. That's incredibly valuable.
- [34:22]
Maha Abou Elanin
Incredibly valuable.
- [34:23]
John Davids
What about podcasts? I feel like we're at a funny point with podcasts. Should people be starting podcasts today?
- [34:29]
Maha Abou Elanin
Yes, for sure. I actually think the podcast boom hasn't even started yet. I really do. I feel like it's, there's such a, there's such a vast, I mean there's like, I don't know how many podcasts. There's such a vast variety of different topics, but people like to listen when they're on the way to the airport, when they're going for walks, when they're on the gym and I in the gym. And I feel like the topics and things that you can learn through podcasts, it's a different way of learning or experiencing content that I think is definitely always going to be here to stay. And I feel for a small business, for an entrepreneur, start a podcast. It's a great way to. I met this guy and I talked about this before, but he, he's an IT consultant and he's like, should I start a podcast? I'm like 100%. Because he's a new business, he can bring on customers and diagnose an IT problem live on his podcast, talk about their business, showcase them. So he can use it as a business development tool to bring in customers. Say, I'm going to feature on my podcast. Two, he can show his services what he's capable of doing by talking about solving problems. Three, he's going to build an audience because you will take that content and put it on social media. And then four, he's going to be able to use that content to redirect it to get other customers. So I feel like a podcast is a great business development tool to showcase who you are, what you can do. It doesn't cost hardly anything to start a podcast. You get a zoom link and you hit record and you upload it. It's so fast, it's so frictionless. And I think there's such an abundance for podcasts. There's always a market for podcasts and it's only going to continue to grow. I don't feel that people are oversaturated with podcasts because people find their niche and the market has an abundance and there's plenty of room. And I think about my own behavior. Like I listen to sports podcasts, I listen to business podcasts, I listen to health podcasts, I have a variety in my menu, just like things that I watch on YouTube or TV, is there any media?
- [36:21]
John Davids
And by the way, I totally agree with you. And I think, by the way, on that note, the reason people get intimidated by podcasts is cause their expectations are out of whack. They think the podcast is a top of funnel. I'm going to reach a ton of people right now. You're not going to reach a ton of people. You're going to get people you've already reached to get to know you better. And that's what it's for.
- [36:43]
Maha Abou Elanin
Yeah, and you should always think like your social media. How can I bring value to my audience? What does my audience care about? And you know what the easiest way to find out is? Ask them. What do you care about? What do you want to listen to? Which guests should I interview? Which topics are more important to you? If the Internet gives you that instant research tool, use it. Use it to find out what your guests care about and bring them value in the things that they want to know the most. That's how you keep an audience, that's how you grow an audience, and that's how you bring value to your audience.
- [37:12]
John Davids
How long did it take you to write this book?
- [37:15]
Maha Abou Elanin
Actually, I. It took me to writing the book, took me like two months. But developing the idea and the chapter, that was like seven months. Like just thinking about like how I was going to structure it was the hardest part. I had to get help with how to do the proposal and how to figure it out. Like, well, how would I do it? But when I actually came to sit down to write it, it was like two months of like every couple days work on a chapter, put it away, come back, break it down into smaller chunks and then it was flowing for me. And then I'd go back and revise and edit and revise and edit. But it was such a fun process because I've been working for 30 years, I've been an entrepreneur for 20, and I really wanted to write a book that wasn't about what I do, but how I do it. How do you create value for other people? How do you become a lifelong learner? How do you become a long term player? How to build your personal brand, how to network, how to live with no regrets, how to not be a waiter, and how to stay low and keep moving. Because despite all the setbacks that happen in life, if you don't put your head down and focus on your goals and shut out the distractions, you're never gonna achieve the goals you want. Everyone's gonna be putting their incoming needs for you instead of you, you know, spending that time focusing on what you care about.
- [38:27]
John Davids
Well, I really enjoyed it. And I love the chapter six. Think of your reputation as currency. It's a currency, but it actually gets bigger. It doesn't deplete. It actually gets bigger and bigger. It kind of almost like grows by itself. And I thought that was a really good way to frame it. And I love this chapter.
- [38:46]
Maha Abou Elanin
Thank you. What I did in every chapter of the book was I made exercises in a playbook so you can put it to work for yourself. So the one about how to build your personal brand, I give you the tips on exactly how to do it online, how to do it offline, networking through DMs, how do you network through social media? It's not that easy. So what should I do on LinkedIn if I want to master the art of a DM on Instagram? I really teach people how to get it off the DM and into an email so you can get into a call. Too often people are trying to do business in the dm, people are trying to do too much in the DM and then we just ignore them. You, you, you have LinkedIn. I'm sure you're flooded with messages that you just either think are a bot or they're not compelling enough. So how do you get it off the dm? Into an email, into a call, into an in person meeting.
- [39:30]
John Davids
It's great stuff, Maha. This was awesome. Good luck with the book. Thanks so much for sharing it here today.
- [39:36]
Maha Abou Elanin
Thank you. It's available on October 8th.
- [39:39]
John Davids
Thanks for listening. Hope you enjoyed this episode. If you haven't already done so, make sure you subscribe to us wherever you listen to the podcasts and let me know what you think of the show. You can get me on Twitter at real John Davids. R E A L J O N D A V I D S Of course. Hashtag Making it. We'll talk to you guys next time.