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Making It with Jon Davids
216 - "It's the Biggest Business Opportunity of the Decade" - Michael Hyatt, Billion Dollar Entrepreneur
00:57:18
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- [00:00]
Michael Hyatt
There's things that you and I do today that will be intolerable in 10 years. Like we will never, never stand for it, but we see it as normal today.
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John Davidson
Name one thing we do now that you think would be crazy in 10 years.
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Michael Hyatt
I've been thinking about this. I think that some obvious ones are.
- [00:15]
John Davidson
Probably like, what's up, guys? JD here. And today I'm talking to my buddy Michael Hyatt, who was an absolute baller, but more importantly, he's just a super interesting guy. Michael sold his last company for about a billion dollars, give or take, and now he runs. And I just wanted to sit down with him and solve all the world's problems. Well, maybe not solve the world's problems, but talk about them a little bit and find all the little opportunities in business and entrepreneurship that we can uncover. That's coming up right now. Get my best stuff to your inbox@johndavids.com let's get to the show.
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Michael Hyatt
You're listening to Making it with John Davidson.
- [01:03]
John Davidson
Michael, you've been such an accomplished entrepreneur. You've built companies, sold companies, invested in companies, and now you have, like, I'm looking at you, you got like a 9 to 5 job. You're in a cubicle right now. What are you doing?
- [01:14]
Michael Hyatt
I'm not in a cubicle. We actually have a family office at the kind in the, in the Yorkville area. So we're up to a nice new shiny floor here. So it's, it's nice. And I have to get out of the house because I don't feel like I need to go to work. I have to actually come here in person. And, you know, we have the team here. So I'm under the belief that the remote working doesn't work. I think humans need human humans, which is an interesting thing to think about, by the way, because what's going on in this world right now is that AI is just climbing the wall. But people probably fail to realize that our DNA for modern Homo sapiens is a hundred thousand years old. And there's a lot of old stuff about us that doesn't get recreated in AI, right? That people need people and oxytocin and different hormones and different things that are going on and face to face and subtle cues and things that we need to do as humans. So we're still actually quite an old machine.
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John Davidson
When I met you, I guess it was like 2020, it was Covid. So obviously you were remote, but were you a remote worker for a long period of time?
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Michael Hyatt
I mean, for like everybody Else for a year, year and a half. And I. And I distinctly didn't like it. I was even giving keynote. Keynote speeches to companies on Zoom, which was really strange. Like, imagine being comedian telling jokes and not hearing feedback, right? It's just. You're into a dark hole. It kind of. It doesn't work. I didn't like it. I like humans. I like people. So I did for a while. It wasn't. It's. I don. Recommend it.
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John Davidson
So what is your family office set up right now? What does it look like?
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Michael Hyatt
Yeah. So we have investment officer, we have a chief financial officer, and we have someone ahead of legal. And then we have people in finance looking at things all day. And we spend our time looking at companies investing. We have three buckets. We invest in stocks, in private equity and venture capital as bucket number two. And then the last one, we try to buy companies or invest very significant portions into companies. And then the advantage for us is that we get involved in a company and then we kind of overlay our operational experience on top of the company. So my brother Richard, who built Blue Cat with me, comes in very technically, I come in very business, and we help accelerate the path. And I like to tell people that working with us is kind of like taking the highway instead of taking the back roads. We'll get you there faster and more efficiently. And it's like when something happens, we're like, oh, yeah, we've seen that before. Okay, this is what we should do. So hopefully our experience gets to overlay into. Into the path for that company.
- [03:38]
John Davidson
So tell people who have never heard Michael Hyatt before. Give us your 32nd, like, how did you become an entrepreneur? What was your first big break? How did you get rich? All that good, good stuff.
- [03:48]
Michael Hyatt
I graduated. I went to Western for science. I went to Western because that was the only university that let me in. I went there for science because of course I was going to be a doctor. But by halfway through first year, I was like, I can't keep up with these people. By fourth year, you know, I would get 80s and everybody in my class would get 99% on exams. I clearly was not going to med school. So in the 90s, in a recession, and my brother and my parents, we all started a software company in the engineering world because my father was an engineer. And we started to sell this new type of technology called Windows in the engineering world to do risk assessments. So it was arcane, it was niche, but it was very profitable. And we started a software company before there was any, you Know, the Internet was just coming about. Like, we would save software on disks and go this place called the post office and mail the disk to somebody and call them up and say, can you put my software in your computer and I'll tell you about it? And that's literally a walkthrough.
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John Davidson
And you did that in like the. In the. In the 90s.
- [04:42]
Michael Hyatt
Yeah, in the 90s. Yeah. Because the Internet really didn't take off, if you think about it, till 96, 97, 98, like 98, 99. And then you had the bubble, and then you had the Internet come to the end, and everybody was saying, see, it's going away. It's never coming back. But it certainly came back and in roaring speed. And. And then we built. Built Blue Cat out of that. It was interesting because after the dot com kind of implosion, it was a great time to start a tech company because people value tech companies. Like nothing like, wanted to be in tech. Everybody wanted to go back and buy Sears and Home Depot stock and really basic and sell barbecues and bricks and mortar, you know, And I was like, I don't know. I don't. I. I turned to my brother and I said, do you want to get rid of your phone or do you want to get rid of your email? There's no messaging, right? There's email. He says, no, I'd rather get rid of my phone. I don't like talking. I want to message people. I said, okay, well, I think the Internet's coming back. And that sounds so crazy now, right? But that was. That was the thought back then, right? And. And, you know, and in our lives, and there's something to think about everybody, like, there's so much that we used to do, which is intolerable, which is a burden. I mean, if I said to you in the 90s, I wanted to listen to an artist, I would get in my car, I would drive to the Sam the record man, that was amazing place downtown or whatever, and I would hmv. Well, I was a Lehman later, and I would buy the CD and I would put it in my car or I'd go home, I put it in my CD player and I listen. And if then you'd have a burning party, you try to burn one, which is kind of illegal, and you've been making a mixed cd, you burn only once. You got to make sure what you were burning was one time, then use that in your car for your mix cd. And that's just the way life was. It was not a burden. And that's what I want to get to people. Like, what we did then was C' est la vie.
- [06:32]
John Davidson
That was it.
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Michael Hyatt
That's what we did.
- [06:34]
John Davidson
It was it. It was, it was the kind of stuff that today you would call inefficient. And there's been this massive movement.
- [06:40]
Michael Hyatt
No, I wouldn't call it inefficient. I call it intolerable. You wouldn't tolerate it. You'd be like, you can't, like imagine now you just want a song. He's there. But what I'm trying to get at is there's things that you and I do today that will be intolerable in 10 years. Like, we will never, never stand for it, but we see it as normal.
- [06:57]
John Davidson
To me, like, name one thing we do now that you think would be crazy in 10 years.
- [07:01]
Michael Hyatt
I've been thinking about this. I think that some obvious ones are probably like driving a car, you know, and buying a car. And, and, and honestly, buying a car is an incredibly expensive proposition. You buy a car to a nice car, let's be honest, a nice car is 60 to $100,000. And you know, a nice car, you know, you know, the Audis, the BMWs, whatever. You want to buy a nice car, then you have to pay insurance and gas and drive and you have to do it. All of this stuff is going to become an entire burden. I mean, I believe that my kids are relatively young, subscription, and a car will pick them up and it'll, you know, have varying levels and you won't have to go through, like. The question that I think we're going to face in the next 10 years is, what are we going to do with all these driveways? Like, I actually think driveways are a whole piece of real estate that we could have consumed for something else. I mean, are we going to be allowed to build more house in the drive? We even need those. So I think those things are going to change in the next decade. Another one is like going to class, sitting down, listening to a professor, consuming information. Then the whole interaction that we've done for a thousand years of learning. I don't know what's going to happen, but I'm not sure that's going to be it. I don't know. In my kids, in 10 and 15 years university, what, what it's going to be like. I know Harvard's been around for, you know, hundreds and hundreds. Like, I understand that, but I don't think learning is going to be the same. You know, access to information is going to be dramatically Different. I mean, I'll go, I'll give you one more. That's out there. I actually saw very advanced demos of neuralink and then putting chips into brains. And they're just doing it in one place in the brain. And by the way, it charges wirelessly. Think about that. And they're going to put it probably in five places in the brain. Like, what is that going to mean? Does that mean you know everything all the time? I don't know what's going to happen in 20 years. So there's going to be intolerable burdens rolling out that we can't. We're not good at seeing an exponential future anyways. But it is. We always look back at the past and laugh. I mean, if I look back at the Titanic, if I was getting on this ship, forget that it sank, it had running hot water in second class and I think third class running hot water. Mind blowing. Mind blowing. Who would ever have running hot water on a ship for third class passengers? And the food was actually, when you look at the menus for third classes, no pretty good food. I mean, they had a pool. Now, the pool was the size of a big bathtub. They had a pool and they had an exercise room. Today, we would laugh at all of it, but they had it. And it was just seen as magnificent. Right?
- [09:35]
John Davidson
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Michael Hyatt
So what I think their kids are gonna laugh at is that this is what's gonna happen. They're gonna turn on this version of Netflix and they're gonna say, hey Netflix, me and my friend here, my best friend in grade one would like you to make a new version of Peppa Pig with us starring in it and then make it a six part episode and we're gonna climb mountains and of course I. So it's going to be unicorns, fairies, you know, mermaids, all having fun in a chocolate castle. And it's just going to make that show and you're going to sit and watch it and you're going to be. The kids are going to be in the show and it's going to happen in five minutes and they're going to say, what do you mean you couldn't invent a show on the fly? You're like, imagine for us, we are just going to say like we're just imagine placing us into a great show. Right. And in this way I think that another kind of crazy concept, all this stuff is crazy. But in one way I think Tom Cruise goes on forever because an avatar of him is going to be in Mission Impossible 26 because it's going to get invented, you know.
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John Davidson
Yeah.
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Michael Hyatt
And so some people are going to become iconic, you know, like the Elvis kind of thing on that.
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John Davidson
It's so true. And just going back to the driveway example. So that's a real world example. The idea of. Yeah. So buying a car. Think. I mean you said 60 to 100,000 and you're right. But to be honest, you could buy a car for $20,000 too. But think about the expense of somebody who's getting their first job. Maybe they're 22, 23 years old. They need to get a car so they can make that 30 minute commute in the morning. The idea that they could just subscribe to a service that charges them $28 a month and a car just picks them up and takes them wherever they need to go. So that's one implications now I've just saved a whole bunch of money. That's a capex I don't need to worry about. And also like you said, I got 30ft in front of my house to build something brand new. What does that mean? So it means the entire look of.
- [12:31]
Michael Hyatt
Cities and the calculus of real estate. And so all those things will change. I think buying a car is extraordinarily inefficient and expensive. I mean, I can't like, you know, I Look, I buy certain cars because I have three little kids, so they have to be in a certain car, certain car seat and all that kind of stuff. But as time goes on, all that stuff will change. I mean, you've been to Las Vegas or, or San Francisco lately. You get picked up in these Google cars. And they're Waymo cars. They're incredible. It's very spooky watching it drive. You know, the funny thing is, is that my suspicion is that that car has a steering wheel, not because it needs it, obviously. It's to make you feel good.
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John Davidson
Totally. 100%. And people in those cars, so you've been in them, do you feel less safe in those cars or.
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Michael Hyatt
The first time it was a little spooky. Like, you look around like, like, like what is going on here? Because it's a completely new. But no, I mean, it is amazing. There's a lot of bugs to iron out there, but that's the future. But, but here's another thing. What's the number one job for a male in North America? Driving a truck or taxi.
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John Davidson
Yeah. Right.
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Michael Hyatt
And at one time, the number one job for a male in North America was probably driving a horse and buggy.
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John Davidson
A horse and buggy, of course. Yeah.
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Michael Hyatt
You know, and, and. And that's why if people look at the history, when you look at New York, which is one of my favorite cities in the world, all the townhomes are made on a stoop going up. And why is that? Because you don't want to smell the horse manure. But also you don't want to smell the dead horses in the street.
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John Davidson
Yeah. Oh, my goodness.
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Michael Hyatt
Right, right. That's why. That's why they were built up in the stoop. And, and that's an intolerable burden. You would never put up with that today, but they lived through that. You would just be 18, you know, 80, and there would be a dead horse out there and it smelt. But, you know, that's kind of way it is.
- [14:19]
John Davidson
I love watching these shows. Like, I don't know if you ever watched 19 or there's a show called the Gilded Age on HBO.
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Michael Hyatt
I like the Gilded Age.
- [14:26]
John Davidson
Gilded Age.
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Michael Hyatt
Sadly, I'm into it.
- [14:28]
John Davidson
There you go. And so when you watch the Gilded Age, there are all these moments. Obviously the horse and buggy is an obvious one, but there are all these moments like building the railroads and the, you know, the oil wells and all these things that in the time were so ingenious and so innovative and like, people died to build the Brooklyn Bridge. And now we look back and, and we think, oh, that was, you know, prehistoric. It's the same thing today and it's the same thing 20, 30 years ago. So the innovation, the pace of innovation happens so quickly. And going back to what you said about the school system, so this is something I've been thinking about a lot because I have a kid in grade 2 and a kid in JK and I just think to myself, okay, so they're basically going to school in the same way I went to school in the 90s. And like, yeah, their lab is a little nicer and they have a greenhouse or whatever. But are they learning the same stuff? I didn't need to know half the stuff that I learned then. Today I don't need it. What do you think is going to happen with the education system?
- [15:23]
Michael Hyatt
I think that the next phase of humanity is to start valuing EQ over iq. And I think that as fast and like I mentioned the beginning of this podcast, as fast as we want to go, we're still humans. So this is what I think. I think there's going to be diametrically kind of opposite forces hitting each other if we jump to the year 2035, 2045, somewhere in that decade. And I sit next to this machine and it knows everything about my DNA and everything that every doctor would ever know in the history of Earth and any and everything that any doctor would ever know. Like, it's like a million PhD doctors in a machine, 10 million PhD doctors in the machine by then. And it three dimensionally prints me a pill for my DNA from me, just for me, and tells me to take it. I think initially there's still a problem with that, is that we're going to want a doctor, a human, to sit next to the machine, hold our hand and say, okay, this pill you're going to take here was made by this and this is why you need it. And explain it to us because I think we're still a hundred thousand years old. For a while. For a while we're going to go through a transition. What is the most practical and simple way to buy a piece of real estate? Probably having just no real estate agents, just doing kind of cut out loose commissions and all that kind of stuff. Humans don't tend to make the biggest purchase of their life without an emotional tie to a home. Real estate agents often act as a coach, as a therapist, almost a business therapist, to tell them, no, this is the house for you, and hold their hand. And often it is, but we are still 100,000 years old. And we need that. There are things that we're still going to want. Emotionally, I don't think we can. Yeah, so I don't think we can keep up with the IQ of a million PhDs in a machine. And that's coming very soon. So look, there's two things that are going to happen by 2030. And, and I'm saying this because this is the belief system of the Creative Destruction Lab at U of T. I've been part of it since the beginning. I'm one of the founding partners. And if you look up the cdl, you find out that this was the early days of Jeff Hinton and the business world and all these brilliant people that have done incredible things, Ilia, all these people that have come out and built these great companies. Part of OpenAI. And what do you realize is that very quickly is that the next five years, they're calling it the fast five, is the fastest five years in human history. And two things will emerge. One is a super intelligence and two, some probably massive breakthrough in quantum computing. And it's going to happen on some Sunday afternoon and then you're going to hear about it on Monday and it's going to be like quantum is real. Real. And that means we've moved billions of fold in computing power seemingly overnight, but it was never overnight. And the other thing is, is that, that we don't know what it's like to have a million PhDs inside a machine. You know, inside our pocket, at our disposable. A million, like I'm talking a million Einsteins, but a million Einsteins in law, medicine, accounting, everything to you, I think what you're seeing right now in AI is very rudimentary, very basic, very early, like the early Internet. Right. But when this thing emerges, emerges, I think it's going to be astounding. And I don't think we know fully what it's going to be yet. Humans have had a history of getting onto a new technology than not knowing what to do. So let me give you an example. When we got brought out the radio, what did we do on the radio? We read the newspaper because it's all we knew what to do. Eventually radio shows started and they were fun. The Queen's or the King's message? In 1920 something was the first television show. The King's Message. The Queen's Message. I looked this up and what did they do? They acted like they were on radio. Then the Internet comes out in the 90s and if you look up Yahoo in 93, 94. What does it look like, the Yellow Pages? Because that's all we knew how to do, business search. So the same thing is happening right now with AI. We don't really know what to do with it. We don't fully understand it. There's a lot of baloney, there's a lot of, I would say gimmicky companies, but there's some incredible things that are going to come out of some real, real disproportionate winners. I mean, you start, I mean, the last time, I mean, OpenAI has invented something in market there. That last time I saw something this inventive was probably the iPhone. So those kind of things are emerging, right? We don't know what it'll be yet, but it's going to be profound. And we have to bear in mind that at the end of the day, we're still 100,000 year old humans, flesh and blood, we react to things. We need people, we need love, attention, warmth, food. Like there's something very basic about us still. That doesn't change.
- [20:17]
John Davidson
I was just watching Sam Altman on the Tucker Carlson podcast and they were talking about the jobs that are safe versus the jobs that aren't safe. And Sam Altman said, computer programmers, very much a question mark. I don't know if we'll need them, how we'll need them, but nurses, 100%, you will still have nurses. Like, it doesn't matter that you have an AI that says do this, do this, take this pill, go to bed at this. It doesn't matter. You want someone there to sit next to you and just give you a smile. And it's the same as you said with real estate agents. And by the way, it's very much the same with a kindergarten teacher, a grade three teacher. You need someone there. It's not the same looking at a computer and having it type out to you or talk to you what you need, because we need that human connection.
- [21:01]
Michael Hyatt
My daughter Sophia, she's six and she says, daddy, what is the moon like? And so what I did, I grabbed my Meta 2 headset, I put it on, I said, let's go walk around on the moon. I mean, when in history could I get my daughter to feel like she's like just mind blown, but it's an experience I can give her in grade one that I could never experience in grade one. And I think what happens for those nurses and those teachers is that they get tools which are so disproportionately incredible that we can do things we could Never do. I'm also, I want to say this right up front. I'm an absolute optimist about what's going on. The world is getting dramatically better. However, since we can reach you a billion different ways a day with a billion different clickbaits, you feel like the world is getting worse. It's not. I mean, if you look at every graph, when you stand back from it, they're eventually going up to the right. You know, despite what you hear in vaccinations, literacy, you know, infant mortality, all that stuff, it's getting better. There's no war in the Western hemisphere, almost. That's almost never happened in human history that we know of, like in modern human history. So, I mean, there's a lot of great things that have gone on. It's just that when we see the media, we believe disproportionately that things are a lot worse. I mean, if you could have media in the year 5:35, which was something like one of the worst years recorded on history, which was like, there was like a volcanic eruption, there was a plague, like some. There's awful stuff going on. There were times in the medieval times, there were times where like one third of France starved to death. I mean, like, imagine having like the year. I can't remember what year, someone's gonna look it up, but a 1200 or something like, you weren't there. It was never photographed. You couldn't get. There was no pictures, there's no video. One third of the country starved to death. So there. If you were to have, you know, Instagram from the year 1000 to the year now, you would proportionately say how amazing we're doing. Right? Even though we have horrible things happens.
- [22:57]
John Davidson
The year 535 is one of the worst years in human history because of the mysterious climate catastrophe. It's known as the Dark Year. You know, it really is amazing. And I think, you know, I work in social media, so, like, I see this stuff all day, I post stuff all day. The reality is, and I'm finally aware of this, is that we take things much more literally, much more harshly, much more. You know, everyone's triggered by different things these days because we see them close up in our faces. These things have happened forever. You know, there's been. I don't, I don't care if you're talking about crime or people saying nasty things or whatever it is, or even the good stuff, and you see a feel good video and you say, oh my goodness, look at all the good that's happening. These things are happening all the time. We just didn't have a feed going into our brain 24 7.
- [23:44]
Michael Hyatt
So JJ Aster died on the Titanic. He was actually one of the last bodies to be found. And I think he was found floating in the Atlantic with something, $5,000 in his pocket, which, you know, I don't know, $500,000 today or something. But if you took J.J. astor, one of the richest men in the world, in 19, 1912, he has nothing on the poorest man in America in 1960, you know, even. And now. Now, no way. I mean, you know, there was something called freedom 55 in the 80s because people retired at 55 because your life expectancy was. I don't want 70 something. Right. You know, so, I mean, we're well beyond that. And the last thing I'll tell you about this is that this is going to sound shocking to some viewers, but this is what I think is going to happen. I had kids late in life, and there's a big disadvantage to that in that I'm tired, I'm older and whatever. But I'm also out of my companies now, so I have all the time in the world for them, which I love. And I have three little girls, which is incredible blessing. But here's the thing. I think my children, and this is a stunning statement, are going to live 100 years without me. So I'll pass away at an age. But because of the way medical science is going, the way quantum is going, the way we're going to probably react, stop the shrinking of maybe re expand telomeres and do other things, or DNA and fixes, I think they're going to live 100 years without me. So I have a lot of work and a lot of preparation to do for them. And I think about this because right now, the age of a human really caps out in the 120s, theoretically. This bag of water we've created here doesn't go past 120 really, but it will get to 200. It'll get to 150. 200, it will, with incredible medical science. And that's when we start to move the Homo sapien and Homo technologicalist as we start editing DNA and changing these things, and there's pluses and minuses to that, but seemingly, are you an AI.
- [25:31]
John Davidson
Optimist, or do you see more chance of negative stuff happening?
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Michael Hyatt
I think that with great power comes great responsibility. We didn't create fire, but we started to utilize fire to cook food. And if we didn't, we'd be very Far off from where we are now. There's a lot of things that are dangerous. There are a lot of things right now that I can name a. Cars are dangerous, planes are dangerous. There's a lot of dangerous things that we utilize and we get along because we cooperate. We do those things. Well, I'm an AI optimist, because I think it's going to eventually do the right thing. The thing I've noticed about humans, about us, is that we do the wrong thing for a long time, but eventually, at the end of the day, we do the right thing.
- [26:16]
John Davidson
We do the right thing after we've exhausted every other option.
- [26:19]
Michael Hyatt
Yeah. And Winston Churchill said something. He said something like capitalism or a democracy. Something like that is terrible, except everything else is worse.
- [26:26]
John Davidson
Exactly.
- [26:27]
Michael Hyatt
And I think that that's what's going to happen here. And we will fumble our way around this. What I would like to say is that I want America. America, meaning kind of the five eyes, kind of the RG7 to be first. I think we have to stay well ahead of other countries on superintelligence in getting there. And I. There's something incredible, the American business ethos which will lead us there. I'm a very much big, long term believer in the United States. I very much believe that Buffett is right. He said something, remember in the crisis of 09, he got on and that's why everybody's going to miss Buffett at some time. We're going to miss that guy because he would get up in a crisis and he'd say, in the worst, darkest time of 09, which was actually a frightening time. He says, since 70, 76, if you bet against America, you lose. Eventually you lose. And I believe that's correct. And I think that. I think AI will offer a lot of things and disproportionately good things, and there's going to be a lot. Do I think we're in an AI bubble right now? Absolutely. But because it's normal that we are, we were in a. In a dot com bubble with silly things like, I can give you stories in the year 2000 before the O1 explosion and it was you. We desperately need that bubble to be popped because people were doing Internet malls selling gems that were worth a billion dollars. Like silly things that you can't conceive. And there's a lot of silliness going on with valuations right now with AI. It's like if I, if I had this podcast five years ago, all we'd be talking about is with a blockchain of or the blockchain of. Right. I think this is distinctly different. But I do think that the winners are going to come out and the winners are going to be the companies that, you know, take you from 0 to 1. Go back to Peter Thiel's book 0 to 1, right? Come in and if you can only change it by a little bit or, or 20, 30%, you're not going to win. But if you can do cut prices down or make something 10 times better, 10 times better, you probably have the start of a Google. And that's what he's saying. So I, I do believe in 0 to 1. I do believe in his book. I do believe in there's going to be disproportionate winners that are going to change the world in, in healthcare and search, in how we do things. And there's going to be incredible companies that are going to be going up and going down. The one to watch that is so interesting to me is Google, because I never thought in my lifetime I would say that they would get into trouble on search and they're in trouble on search. However, when I look at their AI stuff, it's really good.
- [28:46]
John Davidson
It's excellent.
- [28:47]
Michael Hyatt
Yeah, excellent. And what's, what's amazing to me right now, even though I look at VO3, like, it's so good and, and the Gemini stuff, it's really good. And even now the search when I do the AI mode is really good. Is it enough? You know, and now we're, if you're three months behind, are you 30 years behind? I don't know. But, but wow, this is an interesting fight.
- [29:10]
John Davidson
It's crazy. Google had such a mode for so long. And you're right, it was the one stock and the one company. I could say, you know, this is absolutely cannot be beat, but you're right, ChatGPT comes in and, and gives it a run for the money. Let me go back to something because I'm curious about this point. This episode is brought to you by my Playbook website selling machine, available right now@johndavids.com Playbook. Here's the truth. Your website is either making you money or it's costing you sales every single day. And most businesses just aren't optimizing their websites as they should be. This leads to fewer meetings booked, lower average order value, and just a whole lot of people clicking away as fast as they arrived. That's revenue you're losing. You can change all that right now with the insights in my Playbook website selling machine. Grab your free copy@johndavids.com playbook if you had invested in the United States in 1776 and then just Netflix and chilled from then on, you'd be great. Great. But here's my question. Do you think that the US is subject to the laws of empires and the fact that at some point their time runs out or do you think it's special in some way?
- [30:20]
Michael Hyatt
Yes and no. Yes, they're subject to the laws of the empires. As time will tell you, every dog has its day. What I would say is that America, if I could give them advice and they're never going to ask me, is I would say to them the entire world envies their economy. It is incredible. So just to give you a proportionate size, the American economy is something like almost $30 trillion in size. If you take all the members of the Europe, the EU and combine all those countries together, it's $30 trillion. So this country which was born out of Europe is as big as the whole European countries and they've been around a thousand years longer or more modern. And this country has a risk taking ethos which is so incredible. And, and what else does America have? It's hard to invade it because it's on in the water. It has more aerated farmland than anybody else. It has incredible waterways through it. It has more oil and gas than almost anywhere in the world. It has Wall street, it has 12 super aircraft carriers and the entire world has two. It has the best military. There's so much about America, which is incredible when I see them get up in the same vein and cause some of the problems they're doing in trade. Sometimes I believe that seceding a throne, they don't need to secede. Although I would say to that they have very legitimate gripes on, on trade, which I think they're right on partly. But sometimes the way they go about it kind of puts their allies back. So I think what's happening now is this. Everybody wants to trade and do business in the U.S. but everybody said in their back room if you go to Canada, you go to England, everybody, they're all saying he let's do business in the U.S. but let's also diversify back here as fast as we can. Now that may take three to five years, but Canada is looking to make partnerships everywhere in the world fast because 80% of our clientele is down south, which has never been a bad thing till now. And I think that all the other countries in the world are just thinking about how to rewire their trade and can they Depend on the US like they used to depend on it.
- [32:22]
John Davidson
Do you think it's a blip though? Like, I mean, Trump's out in three years. Do you think it goes back or do you think this is actually a sea change?
- [32:28]
Michael Hyatt
Change? It's hard to say. So, for example, the midterms are coming up next year and if there's gridlock there, which the stock market will receive as very positive information, it loves a gridlock. And the reason that the stock market likes gridlock, it knows the direction, then I think you're in a situation where things may settle down a bit. But I think America is putting their stake in the ground in general and saying America first. And I think that tone is going to stay for longer than people would think. And I think other countries are going to rethink their trading strategy because they have to survive. I mean, Canada's literal survival has been the U.S. for what, the modern era? Since World War II, literally. Yeah. And never in a time in my life here I'm an immigrant to Canada. I mean, the US has given us so much. I mean, you can, you can have this wonderful life in Canada and just, you know, down south, have the entire EU style economy that big just in one three hour time zone in one language. And by the way, what's great about selling in America is they buy, they buy fast, they buy hard, they're very big, they're much risk takers than anybody in the world. They will buy your product, they will try new things, they will innovate. I can't say enough about how US as Canadians, we need to think about staying in Canada and being Canadian, but also thinking American. I think there is something so incredible about the way the American business ethos leads and has continued to lead. So I think long term America is going to do fine. But it seems like right now, in this short period of time, it's doing everything it can to disrupt the natural order of trade. But to be fair again to America, there's a whole bunch of unfair trade practices bestowed upon America that they're so big and powerful they've kind of let kind of happen over the past decades, like automotives. Across from Europe to here, there's a lot of stuff that they have a legitimate gripe on. The question is, how do you do it in a way where you still remain king? And I think they still will. Because at the end of the day, like if I told you China is going to be the new king, the question is, do you want to go live there or India? Do you Want to go live there? Do you believe in that rule of law and the setup there, the end of the day for all America's mistakes? I think Churchill's right, it's terrible, but everything else is much worse.
- [34:44]
John Davidson
The analogy you gave a second ago I think actually makes a lot of sense when you are such a powerful dominant. I'll use a business analogy. When you're a business that should just printing profits day and night, no questions asked, and then new management comes in, they look at it and they say, well yeah, you're doing really well, but what's with all the leaks? What's all the holes you're spending here, you're spending there? This guy's short paying you. That guy has 90 day terms. Why doesn't he have 30 day payment terms like all these? I'm just using analogies. All these little things you could look at and say, okay, those are things that should be fixed. The question of course then becomes how do you fix them? Do you fix them in one week or do you set a path to fix them over the course of two, three years?
- [35:21]
Michael Hyatt
So the answer is kind of lying in history. So what happened at the end of World War II, when most of the world was left destitute? America had a meeting called the Bretton Woods Act. Bretton woods meeting. And they brought everybody to Bretton Woods, I think in the Northeast. And they said, hey, we're going to let everybody trade through the US for free. However, every time you trade oil or gold or anything, it comes to the US dollar and we will open up our entire markets to you. And basically the trade off was everybody would use the U.S. dollar and everybody would trade through the U.S. so the U.S. it was a brilliant maneuver by the U.S. became the world. But they did and they created the world's reserve currency which allowed them one massive benefit, which is to print money at nauseam. And no one can do anything about it because no one else can ever challenge the US dollar because there's no ballast as big as theirs and there's nothing else you would trust. So let's say you want to get off the US dollar as reserve currency. You can talk about a whole bun other special drawing rights currencies as a bucket. You could get the Euro. Well, we've already taken money out of bank accounts in Cyprus. It works. There's not enough gold, Bitcoin and not enough. There's nothing that'll sop up the liquidity of the US dollar. But here's the brilliance of the US in the past 50 years. Not only did they get that to happen, but if you look at the US economy, they're running a business at like 80% gross margins. Well how are they doing that? If you look at the S and P, they make all the money from invention of ideas and they will own the technology, the rights, the leadership around that Nike shoe and they'll have Vietn make it. Vietnam happily makes that shoe for 26 bucks. America sells it for 226 bucks and they make all the profit. But Vietnam's very happy. They make a profit at 26 bucks. So the intellectual property of this world is, and the high margin services is coming out of the U.S. so that's where the U.S. makes money. That's why the idea of bringing back manufacturing into the US doesn't really work. Because even if you brought it back to the US you would have to have robots do all those jobs. Because I don't think Americans are going to sit there making iPhones and little, little screwdrivers. We're not good at manufacturing anymore. We gave that up decades ago. We don't have those skills. Right. I mean even when you look at these Koreans that were just kind of had the problem right now and being here, it was because they were here helping us tool and dye things. Right. Because we don't have those manufacturing skills that we, we used to have because we decided that the business of the US was to go sell high margin services. And it's done it through Goldman Sachs and financial services and, and done an incredible job and done it better than anybody. And you know this, and I know this because when you travel around the world, what do you see? You see McDonald's, Starbucks, Disney and like rap music like say what you want, but that, that comes out of Compton, you know, that comes out of us. That's a, that's a thing here. We exported, we. I'm not American, but they exported their culture around the world very successfully. There's people who emanate the U.S. you'll see Mickey Mouse in some kind of way across every country. You'll see McDonald's and Big Macs somewhere. And you know, well you don't have the same Big Mac in India, of course. But, but it's the same point is that we, we, we have branded to the planet. We, Sorry, the Americans have branded to the planet brilliantly on services and culture content. Yeah.
- [38:37]
John Davidson
And people want to be American, leverage things.
- [38:39]
Michael Hyatt
Yeah. But, but when you walk around this planet and you for people bashing the US and I think inappropriately a lot of people try to copy the U.S. of course. You, you people, Yeah. I mean they go around saying this and that. I'm like, but that's where it's invented. I mean like let's look at our world, right? The SaaS business model start invented in the U.S. right. I mean the U.S. invents OpenAI meta, you know, like Cisco, Microsoft, you know, keep going like Amazon. Where are those companies in Europe? Like why was the invention there? And the reason these America invents so well is that they're such amazing risk takers. You know, they will risk it all. And other countries aren't willing to do that. Those entrepreneurs. I mean when you go to France, you go to Germany, you got some of those incredible businesses office I've ever had when I built companies. But they don't take risk like an American does. So I think that eventually the risk taking ethos of the US will lead it into prosperity and continue to do it. But they put themselves in a very tenuous position in the short term. I think they're going to get around it. But I wouldn't bet against the US for sure.
- [39:47]
John Davidson
I just talked to Anthony Scaramucci who I love talking to because he's got a lot of big ideas. What's your take? I got his take. I want to know what your take is on bitcoin and cryptocurrency and the blockchain in 2025.
- [40:00]
Michael Hyatt
I have been published and I own bitcoin. I own a lot of cryptocurrency and I made very good money on it. But I think I've always thought of it as a trade and not an asset. I know a lot of people think very differently that bitcoin is digital gold. I think it is until it's not. I think the reason to own bitcoin. I guess you could make the argument for ether right now it's doing very well and it seems quite good. I think the idea of owning it is a put against the Fed stupidity, or not the Fed stupidity, but a put against politicians who are just inflating the US debt ad nauseam. When does this thing stop? The reason why gold is going up and the reason why bitcoin is going up for large part is it's not that they're so valuable in a sense, it's that the US is going the other way on the value. When you see gold going up, it's really because those things are measured in dollars and dollars. The purchasing power is going down. And why is that? Because the no matter if you Have a Democrat or Republican elected or running the Congress or whatever. The opposite party is always railing against the debt, but when they get into power, they just spend more. So we have a incredible spending problem in the US So they are spending something like a trillion dollars every hundred days. And at some point people are saying I better hold some other assets as a counter cyclical to that. Well, so you have some real estate, whatever. End of the day you're going to buy gold and you're probably going to buy because of ease of use and transference and a whole bunch of things probably bitcoin. So do I think bitcoin is going to go from 114,000 as we're doing this podcast to 250? Yes. Do I think you can go much higher? Yes. Am I owning it because I think it's the most incredible invention in the world. It's some kind of spectacular replacement for US dollar? No, I'm owning it because I believe that we're going to print endlessly in debt and there's going to be a countercyclical to that. And that's probably the decent trade, but it's a trade. Me, I'm very skeptical on, on, on cryptocurrency in general. I think we've seen more fraud in that place than ever. I think a lot of that's worked out of the system by now. But I think long term Bitcoin does what it does simply because we can't stop printing.
- [42:17]
John Davidson
Yeah, the, the fraud piece is one that I thought about a lot. And then the counter argument to that is it's easier to commit fraud with cash because you can't track. If I hand you a b, a bag of money, it's harder to track that versus something that happened on the blockchain. But I agree with you that there's definitely. There's a much bigger people that are sort of anti or don't understand bitcoin. This goes back to what you were saying a minute ago about Buffett, which was like, I love Buffett. I listen to him for all kinds of things. But there are people that have sort of stuck with the. It doesn't make any sense. No, it does make sense when you think about it. Relative to other collectibles, assets, things that we invest in all the time.
- [42:54]
Michael Hyatt
Yeah, look, Buff is not always right. He didn't like Amazon for a long time. He didn't like Apple for a long time. You know, I mean, but I mean he's the most prolific and incredible investor ever for so many reasons. But I can see why him and Charlie Munger hate it because they hate gold too, because they believe you just, it's not productive. They'd say, what would you rather own all the gold in the world or all the farmland in the world? And the reason they're saying farmland is because it's a productive asset. And I think they're right. I think that makes a lot of sense. I don't think bitcoin is a productive asset. What I am saying about bitcoin is the reason it's going up is because the US Deficit is going up. And if the US Deficit suddenly could slam the other way, I don't think bitcoins is valuable. But I don't, but, but no party has ever solved this. You will see the Democrats today going crazy about bringing down that debt. They'll get into power and they'll be like, what debt? What debt? There's nothing to see here. Move on. And then the Republicans will do the same thing. This is not, this is just a, politicians are so addicted to spending in the U.S. it is, you know, I, I, you know what, say what you want about Trump. They are trying through tariffs and they're trying through a lot of things to actually bring, bring down that number by changing the, the, you know, the, the, the math there. And, and, and, you know, if he loses that Supreme Court, for example, on these tariffs, you would have to repay like a trillion in tariffs. So they've, they've brought in a lot of money so far. So he has something going on right there. But I think that I'm not telling everybody to invest in bitcoin. But am I? Yes. Am I selling it? No. Do I think it's going to go up a lot higher? Yes. And it's simply a trade against the situation we're in.
- [44:29]
John Davidson
This episode is brought to you by my social media selling challenge, available now@johndavids.com challenge. Do you ever feel like you're just wasting time and money posting content to social media that goes nowhere? No likes, no comments, and much more importantly, no sales? Well, you can change all that right now. My social media selling challenge gives you the training and tools to turn your posts into a predictable sales system. And you can do it all in just 20 minutes a day. Spots are limited, so join now visit johndavids.comchallenge so you talked about three buckets that you invest in at your family office and of course you diversify because you got a lot of assets to put to work. Work. What are you most interested in? So let's put the stock market aside for now, in terms of private businesses, someone comes to, they want to pitch you what. What is actually getting your focus today.
- [45:24]
Michael Hyatt
I think it's never being easier to start a business today. It's never been cheaper to fail. Like, it's never like. And that creates a bit of a problem because things can be very fickle. I, in general, stay away from. From very early stage things with valuations that don't make sense to me. Like, I stay away from things where it's a couple of guys with a deck and their free money is 20 million or some kind of huge number where they're just, you know, you know, because I. I don't think I can make money on that asset. So if you actually multiply it out, it's very hard to make money on those types of assets. But there are ones that you, you know, certainly said yes to. Some of the biggest companies in Canada in the early days. You would do well no matter what.
- [46:05]
John Davidson
So.
- [46:05]
Michael Hyatt
So I typically like to work with people that are in large markets, people that I like, like, literally that I like, and ones that I can literally put some decent money to work on very reasonable terms, and I stay with them. And I try to offer operational help. So I think that my edge is to not invest in everything. My. My edge is to invest in things where my operational experience can disproportionately help the company and help my investment. So I can only do a few of those. Right. So what I do is write larger checks into fewer deals and try to help.
- [46:37]
John Davidson
So you took a stake in the company you're at now, and you're actually the chairman. Tell us about that company and why you kind of, like, put not all your eggs, but a lot of eggs in that basket.
- [46:48]
Michael Hyatt
Well, first off, it's cybersecurity, and the company's called Data Stealth. It's in Mississauga, and they have a lot of really strong intellectual property. They're very good guys. And I'm not the CEO, and I don't want to be a CEO again. I'm there as a supportive role to help them. But we make an investment because when we look into the future, we think, like, can Richard and I materially, with our skills, help that company?
- [47:11]
John Davidson
Is it the same kind of business you had, or is this similar to what you were doing before?
- [47:15]
Michael Hyatt
It's in the same universe as Blue Cat, but this one is cyber security and on data protection. So, like, I'll tell you what we do. It's very simple. We go and find sensitive data and documents and companies. And then we tokenize it. So our thesis is if you have a company with sensitive data and documents, you eventually be breached. If you're an insurance company, a bank, a healthcare, whatever, eventually you're going to get breached even if you buy all the right Cisco, Palo Alto, Ford and all the things you should buy, by the way. But eventually something happens, you get breached. If you use data stealth, what happens is that we tokenize your data so when it's on the outside world, it's garbled, it doesn't mean anything and quantum can't fix it or change it because it's substitution of names, tokenization. So we essentially tokenize your data so it's useless on the outside world if it gets there. Our thesis is you will get breached eventually. And that with AI and all the push, with agentic stuff, more and more data in the network, more and more problems and we can make it so if that data gets out, you can sleep at night. And listen, the company is growing nicely. It's nicely profitable. We've never taken on an investor, we have no debt and we're growing and we're doing great. But listen, it's a lot of heavy lifting, a lot of hard work for Richard and I. But will it get somewhere? I hope so. So you.
- [48:28]
John Davidson
Okay, so the last two things you said are interesting. So it's profitable. Most, most tech startup businesses are not profitable. But your Blue Cat, I think you told me one time bluecat was already profitable when you took your first investment on.
- [48:39]
Michael Hyatt
Yes, Blue Cat was profitable. We took our first investment on.
- [48:42]
John Davidson
So Blue Cat was profitable. I'm guessing it was very profitable because of the way you said that.
- [48:46]
Michael Hyatt
Well, no, this was back in 05 and it was 5 million in sales and a million profit, which is incredible if you think about it with. No.
- [48:55]
John Davidson
So you had bootstrapped that. So are you the kind of investor because you said a couple things, you said you don't want to put money in at a crazy valuation. Got check. You also want. You like that P word profit, which is pretty elusive to a lot of investors. You're a little bit unconventional in that way. Why, why do you care about profit early on when a lot of these companies are going to sell for hundreds of millions and it's all irrelevant or is that not your play is because.
- [49:18]
Michael Hyatt
That doesn't happen because the math doesn't say that's correct. And this is something I really, and I hope people listening to this really take. How much does the average tech company in Canada sell? For, I have no idea, 30 million. How much did the average American software company sell for? 70 million. Now those are the ones that sell. If you actually lined up every single one of them, the average would be a dollar because you have so many zeros. What I'm saying is that exits, the golden arches of exits, even on a good day, are between 50 and 100 million. So when you start getting in at 20, 40, 50 million, and you're trying to sell your company for 2, 3, 4, 500 million because you've heard people do it, literally you have to be struck by lightning. And a lot of people don't see that. If you're running a venture capital firm, your job is to find the one lightning on the bottle, right? And you get compensated in other ways. So I'm not running a VC, so I'm not trying to take four or five losses to find one or two big ones, you know, one to win.
- [50:18]
John Davidson
This is not one of 10 investments that seven can lose.
- [50:22]
Michael Hyatt
Okay, so here's the truth about investing today. If you were a CEO between 2010 and 2020, you were completely bamboozled. Why? Because you lived in ZURP, 0% interest rates. So that means there was always money for you. There was always another round. Your, your VCs would never let you go under and the bank would never call their debt because they don't want to upset the vcs and they wouldn't want to upset you in the community. All that stuff's over. No way. Now inflation doesn't exist until it did. And the world literally pancaked by 2021, 2022 too. And, and, and money matters and, and unit economics matter and profitability matters. You know, if you're, if you're growing at 100% and losing 100% and you got to ask yourself, are you really growing that? Or are you buying market share? Are you buying gross margin? Like what is really happening? Sometimes it, it's, it's correct. Often it's not. You can only lose so much money to the next investor says no, and then what do you do? You have to cut a lot of people, cut a lot of things slow. Now you're slowing growth down to 20%. And now you're, you're at zero burn. But you're a 20% grower now. You're not valued at anything like that. And you're stuck in no man's land, right? It is so easy to get stuck in no man's land. As long as liquidity keeps pumping, there's nothing wrong. I mean in the US in 2007, everybody refinanced their home. Doesn't matter. They would give you money for anything. You could be a bus driver and get a $300,000 mortgage. And why? Because housing prices are always going up until they don't.
- [51:50]
John Davidson
So do you think entrepreneurs. Because I, I'm. And by the way, I'm 100% on this line of thinking. Like, I think you build a business to be profitable and that's the best way to build a business that somebody else wants.
- [52:01]
Michael Hyatt
You know, you build a company with good unit economics. If you're going to be unprofitable, there is a real reason behind it. Like it's if you're not profitable in an 80% gross margin business. Gross margin meaning you know, your sales minus your cost of goods sold, you have a gross margin, not net margin. If you're like gross margin high and you're burning, but you're growing nicely and there's a reason for it. Because you're an investment cycle, you have a capex. I get it.
- [52:25]
John Davidson
That's the Amazon story. The reason Amazon was unprofitable for so long was because they had to get to a certain scale. That's at least what Bezos said.
- [52:33]
Michael Hyatt
But there's one Amazon unit.
- [52:34]
John Davidson
Economics from day one worked. We just needed to be 100 times bigger.
- [52:38]
Michael Hyatt
Yeah, and listen, I have an investment right now that had that issue and now it's actually working the same way. But I would tell you that most people need to. If you told me you could grow not at 100% but at 50% and be break even. Take the 50 and break even even. Because if, if things go bad or the market gets tight, there's no one there, there's no parachute, you're going to lose your company. And that's why so many entrepreneurs sell their company and own 3 to 7% of the company, or 2%. I mean, you sell your company for 100 million and make 2 million bucks or 4 million bucks and that's a 7, 10 year journey, then what did you get paid per year? Let's say, let's say you sell your company for 100 million bucks and you get $5 million. You know, that's a lot of money. But in 10 years that means you made $500,000 a year after tax you made 400,000 or 350. 50. You could have just had a job and never taken the 10 years of stress. So I, I don't think it's that good. And the reason that you're down to 5% is that, you know, everybody else sucked up the profits because you kept on raising because they told you to get another round and up your round and do another round and do another round. And then you have five vcs and everybody's at the table and they have a J curve and they want out if somebody wants in. I know the VC community and so many of them are excellent and help businesses and capital builds businesses. But if I'm, what I'm telling you to do is try to get, get one or two VCs, get really good ones you want to work with and just use them. Just stay with one and, and, and try to build your company. Right? You, it'd be better to grow slower and be profitable than to, you know, live to fight another day. And no markets go through cycles. We're doing this podcast. I think it's pretty obvious we're heading to a recession in the US And Canada right now. The why is the stock market going up? Well, because interest rates are going to get cut dramatically. That's why. Why? Why interest rates getting cut dramatically? Because unemployment fast. Why is it going flat? Because we're at a recession, right?
- [54:29]
John Davidson
So as we record this today, the stock market is probably at another was at an all time high yesterday. It's probably another all time high today. What are you doing with your money in the stock market today?
- [54:38]
Michael Hyatt
Keep buying the S and P and you're still buying. You're not selling, buying, buy more. That's me. I'm not telling you to do that because I can't give advice, but I'm not selling anything. And by the way, I don't care if the market drops 30% tomorrow. I'm just, just then do nothing. If I can put more money and I will.
- [54:55]
John Davidson
But if the market's. If you're thinking the market could potentially drop by 20, 30% in the next three months, why not take a little bit off the table so you have the dry powder to put back in or you just don't think?
- [55:04]
Michael Hyatt
Well, first off, I don't need the dry powder. The second reason is, is that the market always goes up to the right. If you just stand back from it, you're just too close to it. I mean, Buffett gives a really good example. He says that, let's say you had two farms and your neighbor had a farm and you had a farm and then, you know, you asked him how much he would sell his farm for and he tells you on Monday. But then you ask him every single day and it goes up and down based on the crop and the yield and whatever. It would drive you a little crazy or it would drive him crazy. Like either way, we don't. If you actually valued private assets as regularly as you do a public asset, you would find they went down just as much. And even more so when there's a crisis and the market drops 30% because of some inflation, the private markets actually dropped 50%. You just don't see it because people aren't marking those things to market. Market, right. So all, everything, all those boats float. The, the public markets are the premium markets because of liquidity. So when you see the market drop 30%, that's the best case scenario. Right. You know, try to get a real estate fund or a private equity fund. When it's dropping, you don't. The reason why sometimes private equity and some of the funds are good. It saves you from yourself from selling because you can't sell and you're stuck. And sometimes those companies are really good and just need to sit on it. Right?
- [56:14]
John Davidson
That's it, man. Listen, dude, we gotta do this again. I've got a long list here, but this has been awesome. Thank you so much, Michael.
- [56:21]
Michael Hyatt
No problem.
- [56:27]
John Davidson
Thanks for listening. Get my best stuff to your inbox@johndavids.com Talk to you soon. This episode is brought to you by Influicity's new tool, the AI Ads Generator. Available now at johndavids.com ads Great ads aren't about luck, they're about leverage. The brands that win are the ones who can launch faster, test smarter and outspend everyone else without wasting a dollar. That's exactly what the AI Ads generator gives you. Instant ad copy that speaks to every customer and feeds the algorithm high performing variations your competitors can't keep up with. It's like strapping a jet engine onto your marketing. And right now it's free. Yes, it's free. Go to JohnDavids.com ads that's JohnDavids.com ads.