Podcast Summary:

Podcast: Making It with Jon Davids
Episode: 233 – Don't Make This BRUTAL Selling Mistake | Carolyn Sarnoff, billion dollar CMO
Date: December 5, 2025
Guest: Carolyn Sarnoff (Chief Marketing Officer, Pattern)
Host: Jon Davids

Main Theme

This episode dives deep into the pitfalls and best practices of high-level sales and marketing. Jon Davids and Carolyn Sarnoff discuss why starting with the customer’s problem (rather than your product) is essential, how to ensure brand consistency across channels, and how to measure effectiveness across complex buyer journeys. Carolyn shares experienced-based insights from her journey scaling Pattern—a billion-dollar company—and offers tactical advice for both marketers and founders.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Don’t Start with the Product—Start with the Problem

• Common Selling Mistake: Many sellers (not just rookies) immediately pitch their product rather than addressing the customer’s pain points.

  • Jon: “There's a rookie mistake...A lot of very experienced people also make this mistake is where they start with the product, where they should always be starting with the problem.” (00:09)
  • Outlining and validating pain points (“Is anyone else feeling this? Anyone else realizing that ad costs are soaring...?”) helps capture attention.
  • Only after identifying the problem should the conversation shift to the solution.
  • “If you reverse it, you're never going to get anyone to listen to you.” (00:37)

• Earning Credibility:

  • Carolyn: “You have to earn the right for them to listen to you. And it's showing that you understand and then building some credibility.” (00:48)

2. Orchestrating Touchpoints Throughout a Long Sales Cycle

• The Customer Journey:

  • Pattern’s process involves being “knowledgeable, helpful, present and personalized (KHP squared)” at every stage (01:30).
  • Commitment to engaging with prospects in authentic, non-salesy ways, from digital ads and webinars at the top of the funnel to live community events further down.
  • “It just feels like...whether you actually want to work with us or not, we are here to help, we want to engage with you.” (01:44)

• Building Relationships Long-Term:

  • Impact lasts beyond immediate conversion: “People that you talk to today might become customers in two or three years from now.”
  • Jon: “The reason as companies grow, their sales pickup...is because they're fulfilling deals with people they started talking to two and a half years ago.” (03:14)
  • Carolyn: “To your point, it can be years. Someone comes back around and things have changed and just the timing is right to partner.” (03:30)

3. Brand Consistency Across All Channels

• The Consistency Challenge:

  • Pattern’s in-person brand (“knowledgeable, friendly, approachable, data-driven, a little bit nerdy”) was clear, but their digital presence felt misaligned—more “premiere” and “elitist.”
  • Carolyn: “Our digital engagement was actually quite low...that was really a trigger to say, what's going on here? Why are we getting such great engagement in person [but not online]?” (03:51)

• Brand Audit and Digital Transformation:

  • Pattern undertook a “big digital transformation...to align our digital strategy with who we truly feel like we are and what our real brand essence is.” (04:45)
  • Ensuring all channels—events, website, LinkedIn, etc.—reflect a unified, authentic brand voice, even as different teams manage them.

• Jon’s External Example & Recommendation:

  • Many clients (such as hedge funds) present as fun and jovial in person, but are “academic boring” online.
  • “A lot of companies would do a service to themselves to...make sure it's like the same person or the same tone, at least across all channels.” (06:57)

4. Institutionalizing Brand Voice and Tone

• The Value of Guidelines:

  • Carolyn: “Just to have brand guidelines for your voice and tone...creating that, like, here's actually who we are, and here's an articulation of that and making sure that everyone on the team has that.” (07:48)
  • As companies scale, written guidelines help maintain consistency without micromanagement.

• Jon’s Advice to Smaller Teams:

  • Even 5-10 person teams benefit from writing down an “avatar,” or archetype, and core brand attributes from day one.
  • “Everybody sort of knows just writing it down is a great exercise.” (08:42)

5. Attribution and Measuring Marketing Impact

• Tracking ROI Across Channels:

  • Pattern uses a combination of high-level and granular analysis—overall spend vs. detailed attribution by channel (events, LinkedIn, etc.).

  • They measure:

    • Deal velocity (faster closes for event participants)
    • Opportunity creation (event-driven opportunities vs. others)
    • Lead quality, not just lead quantity

  • Carolyn: “It's not just did it create kind of quantity of new leads, but did those leads turn into opportunities and ultimately convert?” (10:14)

  • “You're sort of doing yourself and your fiscal responsibility a disservice if you're just saying, hey, I spent this and got, you know, X leads out of it.” (10:42)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jon Davids (on rookie selling):
  “Here's the thing I sell...Yeah, but you haven't outlined the pain yet.” (00:16)
• Carolyn Sarnoff (on credibility):
  “You have to earn the right for them to listen to you.” (00:48)
• Carolyn Sarnoff (Pattern’s brand):
  “We are e-commerce experts, we are knowledgeable, we are friendly, we're approachable, we're pretty casual, we're super data-driven, a little bit nerdy.” (03:58)
• Jon Davids (on channel alignment):
  “You don't need to be this guy here and that guy there, and it's like two different people.” (07:31)
• Carolyn Sarnoff (on brand guidelines):
  “How do you enable people to go act independently and autonomously, but also doing that in a way that feels very on brand and very consistent?” (08:21)

Important Timestamps

• 00:09–00:48 — Common (Brutal) Selling Mistake: product-first vs. problem-first
• 01:07–03:14 — Customer journey management, nurturing over long sales cycles
• 03:30–04:45 — Importance of being consistent and authentic across all touchpoints
• 06:31–07:48 — Real-world examples of channel misalignment; solutions for consistent brand voice
• 07:48–08:42 — Guidelines for voice, tone, and small-team brand documentation
• 09:47–11:42 — Attribution, measurement, and evaluating channel effectiveness

Summary

Jon Davids and Carolyn Sarnoff offer a masterclass on modern B2B selling, emphasizing empathy, authenticity, and data-driven marketing. Step one: Always start with the customer’s pain—not your product. Then, nurture prospects across multi-year journeys with consistent, authentic brand engagement, both online and offline. As companies scale, documenting brand voice and using systematic attribution ensures that teams stay aligned and marketing remains effective. Whether you’re a solo founder or CMO of a billion-dollar business, these principles are vital for “making it” in a crowded market.