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- [00:00]
A
This is Steph. She sells stationery and she makes two and a half million dollars a year doing it. But there's a problem. Sales are stuck and she'd like to be at $5 million. Steph doesn't know how to get there. The good news is it's not that hard. Today I sit down with Steph to break out the business and show her two very simple ways to do it. If you're a business builder, there's a lot of strategy we cover here, like how to run Facebook ads, how to create killer offers, and how to get more money from every single customer. My name is John Davids. I'm the founder of influicity where we help sell more stuff to more people. If that's your thing, give me a like a comment and share this episode with a friend. Let's do it. You're listening to Making it with John Davids. Steph, tell me about your business.
- [00:51]
B
Yes. So Joy Creative Shop is an e commerce brand. We are mainly focused on stationery and elevated gifting.
- [00:57]
A
And how long have you been doing it?
- [00:58]
B
For almost 16 years.
- [01:00]
A
Wow. How did you get started?
- [01:02]
B
Started as an etsy shop about 15, 16 years ago as a side business, as something for fun, to kind of scratch a creative itch.
- [01:10]
A
And who's the ideal customer? Who do you sell to?
- [01:13]
B
Busy woman. A busy mama that's looking to one. She's a great gift giver. She's usually on the go so we try to find some elevated solutions to get her out the door and gift ready as fast as possible.
- [01:25]
A
And how do you reach them today? How do you get customers?
- [01:28]
B
I would say our main paid channel is meta. Google is in the mix a little bit. And then our secondary and how we kind of got to where we are is influencer marketing. That has really been the key lever for us.
- [01:40]
A
Let's, let's break that down. Give me a percentage of Meta, Google and Influencer.
- [01:44]
B
I would say right now Meta is probably 75%. It's grown over the last few years.
- [01:49]
A
We're talking meta paid ads.
- [01:51]
B
Paid ads, yes. Correct. And then Google paid is probably 5% and then the balance being 20%.
- [02:00]
A
It looks like you got a pretty big social following on Instagram. Are you not getting organic via Instagram?
- [02:05]
B
That's actually. It's hard to know to be honest. I know we get a lot of organic follows and so our community is growing on there and then the goal is obviously through some of the one just engagement and then the manychat automations are helping us turn Those followers into customers.
- [02:21]
A
Okay, so you've got manychat. So you're doing. Leave a comment and then I'll DM you this thing.
- [02:27]
B
Yes, we've started. That's how we started with manychat. And then we've, we've turned on their newest automation that turns a new follow into a email capture. And that's actually been huge.
- [02:39]
A
What's your big challenge today?
- [02:41]
B
I would say getting eyeballs on our brand. So over the years, we've grown really consistently and knowing paid changes. I feel like every six months there's like a different iteration and change and not not knowing what to do next for the paid channels. But I would say getting eyeballs on our brand because once we get them into our little world in our community, we convert really well. We've got a decent, you know, return customer rate. And so we do. And we have a reason for them to come back a few times a year just based on the seasonality of what we do. So I would, I would say probably just the. I don't know if it'd be a paid but organic eyeballs on our brand and getting more views.
- [03:20]
A
So just more sales, more customers.
- [03:22]
B
Yeah.
- [03:24]
A
And let's dig into the economics of one customer right now. So somebody comes in the door. Let's just say they're coming through your biggest channel, which is Meta. That's where 75% of the traffic comes from. Do you know what it costs you? What's your CAC to get one customer right now?
- [03:39]
B
I think it's in the 35 to $40 range to acquire them.
- [03:43]
A
And then what are they spending on that first purchase?
- [03:46]
B
First purchase? It depends on the time of year. So I would say our annual average is around $80, but it could vary anywhere from 65 to 115 depending on what time of year they're buying and if they're buying more gifts than for themselves.
- [04:00]
A
Okay, so the average order value for someone that you're paying $30 to get, they might spend $80 upwards to $115.
- [04:08]
B
Correct.
- [04:09]
A
And that's happening on the first purchase. So they're hitting a meta ad and then they're filling their cart at that time?
- [04:14]
B
I think. So. I know we, I mean, we definitely get people on first purchase through there. And then we. The repurchase, we're not doing a lot of retargeting. So it's mainly for that initial acquisition.
- [04:25]
A
Okay, so your numbers right there. I mean, essentially you've got a LTV to CAC ratio. You're looking at about 35% of your costs are in that first sale, which is very good. The question then is, so you're liquidating your marketing costs, are they spending more and more and more in the weeks to follow?
- [04:45]
B
That's probably our biggest holdup is, unlike a subscription brand, where they're coming back the next month, they may come back, but it could be six months from now, it could be eight months from now. So they're not repeating as quickly, probably as we would like them to. So that's probably a pain point for sure. But they do come back, and they usually spend more when they come back because it's that same idea of getting an order for themselves, realizing it's a great gift, and then buying for others. Yeah.
- [05:11]
A
The reason I'm asking this is because you mentioned that you want to get more customers, but it seems like if you're not even tracking how much they're spending with you once you acquire them, because getting them for $30 and having them pay you, let's say even $80 on that first visit is a great unit economic, just on the acquisition. And then if you could have them spend 200, 300, $500 over the year, yeah, that'd be much better than getting another client for sure. $30. Does that make sense to you?
- [05:44]
B
Yeah. So, yeah, getting them back into our system and becoming a customer again is more of the goal. Is that what you're saying of like.
- [05:52]
A
That's what I think, but I want to make sure we're on the same page, so.
- [05:55]
B
Absolutely.
- [05:56]
A
What would your dream outcome be if we finish this strategy session? What do you want to walk away with? Ideally?
- [06:02]
B
Yeah. I mean, when you say it that way, for sure, I think we do have. I think our goal is scaling Meta. So that's always, you know, you always want more. But then when you put it that way, I think taking care of who we have maybe better, could be another great strategy for us. So figuring out ways to serve them once they've come into our community as a customer, and ways to get them back in our shop with more often.
- [06:26]
A
I think you could scale meta, and I want to talk about that, and we can even maybe get into Google. The reason I bring this up is because in your intake form, when we were preparing for this, you mentioned that you were maybe looking at getting out of D2C, going Amazon wholesale, getting into stores. That's an entirely different business. So is that something that you're actually considering or did you just kind of say that as a thought?
- [06:46]
B
I think it's definitely on Our vision board for things. Once you hit a plateau of growth, you know, you're always looking for what would be the next thing to help the overall. But no, we've committed fully to D2C wholesale for stationary. The reason wholesale always comes back up for us is most stationary brands are 95% wholesale, 5% D2C. And so we're the total opposite. So I do believe there is an opportunity there, but it's obviously a totally different business model. So no, our focus is I would say mainly on direct to consumer and then I would say when in doubt, you know, those conversations come up of like should we be doing, you know, those other channels?
- [07:25]
A
What's your total revenue today?
- [07:27]
B
Annually 2.5 million.
- [07:30]
A
So you got a two and a half million dollar E commerce stationary business that you've built against the grain as it is. It feels like you're doing something that is working, that is very unique. And I, you know, I've always been burned personally when I've looked at what everyone else does.
- [07:47]
B
Sure.
- [07:47]
A
And think, oh, I should just do that thing when the thing I'm doing is working crazy well.
- [07:52]
B
Yeah.
- [07:53]
A
And the reason it works is because you're doing something different and you've tapped into something. So it's actually taking a step backwards sometimes when you try to do the best practice in my personal experience.
- [08:03]
B
Agree.
- [08:04]
A
All right, so I want to get tactical right at the beginning and look at your Facebook ads library. You mentioned that you feel like you've hit a plateau on the Facebook ad side. 75% of your traffic of your sales rather are coming from here. So tell me about what's happening here. Who's making these ads and what's kind of the strategy behind them.
- [08:24]
B
For sure. So we recently transitioned to a new agency just about a month ago. So it's a mix of their creative, meaning their creative team with our approval. And then it looks like based on what I see in here, a lot of either product listings. So just flatlight imagery. Normally our account has more video and gift wrapping type content, but I don't know if they have those ads turned on at this time.
- [08:47]
A
Okay, so you've got 51 ads running. Any idea what your monthly meta spend is approximately?
- [08:56]
B
I would say I think last week was around 5K. So I would, I guess if it's going to range, but anywhere between 15 to 25,000 depending on, you know, the seasonality. We're in a slower season. March and February and March are slow for us because of no holidays. And then April 1 kind of kicks into full gear with spring gifting.
- [09:18]
A
So about 5,000 a week. So let's just say 20,000amonth is what you're spending and you got 51 pieces of creative, so that's not terrible. The reason I ask is because based on the spend level, you want to have a certain amount of creative. So if you said we're spending $100,000 a month, I'd say, okay, well you need more than 50 pieces of creative. So that, that's not terrible. Now what I'm seeing though here is one ad format. So I'm looking at all image ads. Some of these might be carousels, but they're all images. I got one video over here, predominantly images. And then when I click on them. So if I look at the offer, just take one offer here. So we got this one offer for the mom who remembers. And then I hit shop now and it takes me to a best sellers page. So there's a bit of increasing here. And the reason I'm getting into things like this is because you already have a really advanced meta ad strategy and probably something as simple as this could literally grow 20 or 30% the kind of conversion rates you're getting when the congruency of the ad make sense with the landing page. So this to me is like, like a CRO thing. And I know it might seem like, well, John, you're getting into tactics. Yeah. But at your level, like these kinds of tactics can take you from a two and a half million top line to a four or five million top line because we do a lot with E commerce. And you'd be amazing amazed at what kind of advancements you can get with CRO. So that's one little thing. This episode is brought to you by my Playbook website selling machine, available right now@johndavids.com Playbook. Here's the truth. Your website is either making you money or it's costing you sales every single day. And most businesses just aren't optimizing their websites as they should be. This leads to fewer meetings booked, lower average order value, and just a whole lot of people clicking away as fast as they arrived. That's revenue you're losing. You can change all that right now with the insights in my Playbook website selling machine. Grab your free copy@johndavids.com playbook. The second thing is the top performing creative, when you do it well, is video. So why are you not doing much video here?
- [11:32]
B
That's actually a great question. We've asked them to turn on the the ones that have Performed well, I wish you could see past videos that are in there, but I think there's one right now of a. It's like a champagne bottle being wrapped. We normally do more videos like this and we have them in our database, but this is just what's been turned on for right now.
- [11:53]
A
Cool.
- [11:54]
B
So it's taking our product as kind of the side, not the main star, and showing how we use it to elevate whatever it is they're gifting.
- [12:02]
A
Right. So this makes sense. And listen, we can get in here and I could give you all kinds of tips on the, on the videos and the creative. I think as a, as a general rule, really well performing video does better than really well performing photos. A lot of people struggle with making reels that capture attention and that's why they, they'll say, oh well, video doesn't work for me. No, no, video works. You're just not very good at it. You actually are quite good at video here. This is really good stuff. So I'd be grabbing your best performing video creative from organic Instagram and putting it on here and making it the paid stuff. You will notice if you're, if you feel like you're hitting a cap on, on Meta, I can promise you. I mean, we have E Commerce clients that are spending literally a million dollars a month on Meta and seeing a six to one, you know, Roas. So I do think that there's a lot more room to grow here. But it sounds like, like this is stuff that you're comfortable with. I mean, you, you know the world of Meta, right?
- [13:02]
B
Yeah, I, absolutely. And I, I couldn't agree more. I know there's more room, there's more customers out there for us. So it's just figuring out that sweet spot. And we do know that video performs best. So I think getting, like you said, going into social, figuring out what's worked there, moving that over into a paid capacity and to test it. And see, ironically, we do have every once in a while, like a static, very single, simple photo that does so well. So I don't know if that's the strategy behind having a few in there to test out, but we know video, and especially the gift wrapping style is what's done well for us in the past. So, so maybe just kind of going
- [13:41]
A
more all in on that unboxing, unwrapping, and you'll have a few hero formats that will sort of overperform everything else and you'll, you'll figure that out when it comes. But I would really lean in And I wouldn't be afraid, especially if the economics work. The great thing about Meta is that you can spend a dollar and make $3 and if you can do that, then spend a hundred thousand dollars to make $300,000.
- [14:02]
B
And that's been our. That's what we've told every agency we've been with. We're like, we have the money to do it. If you can show that it's working, we will happily spend more if that return is there. So agreed. We just kind of, I think probably easing into a new agency right now as well as getting them comfortable with what we're used to and what we've done in the past and then getting them to kind of scale some of the ones that are working.
- [14:26]
A
Tell me about Pinterest. Are you doing much there?
- [14:28]
B
So Pinterest is a really interesting platform. In my mind that should be where so much one because we're so visual and again our consumer is on there. So we did some testing of Pinterest paid over the holiday season. Very hard to really every platform, obviously the contribution is pulled. So when we look at it like a triple whale, that shows all of it. Pinterest was the one that just showed the least. So it's been hard to prove if that works. But in a perfect world, and I know from having influencer friends and blogger friends, like most of their traffic is driven from Pinterest. So we don't have a strategy on there. We basically just move anything that gets posted on Instagram to there. So I think Pinterest as a, a little bit more of an intentional strategy is definitely something we could consider and look into.
- [15:16]
A
Yeah, Pinterest ads is super simple, but it does work quite well. We have a client, they do prom dresses, evening gowns, so it is quite seasonal, pretty high end and expensive. And Pinterest is I would say the simplest platform to advertise on. And it drives not, not as much scale as Meta obviously, but the, the bullseye ICP is, is just so in sync with who's on Pinterest. So it's like this is my customer. They're primarily on Pinterest and you can get a lot more there because you're not competing with everyone else on Google and Facebook.
- [15:51]
B
For sure. Yeah.
- [15:53]
A
Okay, so let's talk about the Unity economics now because if we could take this LTV from 80 or $100 up to 500 or $1,000, I think that would be a 10x win for you. Would you agree with that?
- [16:06]
B
Uh huh.
- [16:07]
A
Have you thought about doing or have you tried anything in the subscription space?
- [16:12]
B
It is definitely. We have tested it a few years ago and I would say unsuccessfully. We, it was prior to having an agency too that could help scale a subscription. But we recently have two different variations of an idea. One on TikTok, there's a snail mail kind of comeback that's happening and it's a low dollar subscription that you get basically an envelope full of like little goodies. So that's a thought. And it's like I said, you know, 12 to 15amonth recurring. And then we also have something in the works for a quarterly gifting box. So it kind of includes everything that you would need going into the future quarter of for gifting, if it's gift tags for that season. So both of the things, I would say the, the quarterly boxes are primarily focused right now to get that off the ground. But it gets product in people's hands four times a year without us having to like herd them back, you know, to get in the door. Just shows up on the door and it gets them ready for what's upcoming.
- [17:09]
A
There are people on TikTok, or at least they, they promote themselves on TikTok, they're making $50,000 a month selling something that's 10 or $20 a month on a subscription basis. I'm guessing that's who you're talking about. Yes, why not? What are the people buying your product first? So when someone goes and buy stationary, what is it for? Are they making arts and crafts? Are they making birthday cards? What are they doing?
- [17:32]
B
So they're buying either notepads that have their name on it or someone else's name on it. They're buying, I would say a sweet spot that we have that isn't as popular of a. It's definitely a thing is gift tags. I actually grabbed one. But our bag of tags is probably one of our more proprietary products. And it, it's the idea is when you're running out the door or just wrapping gifts, instead of going to get $8 greeting cards, you've got a whole bag of tags that have all different sentiments on them. So you're able to grab one, wrap the gift quickly. So gift tags for gift wrapping, stationery for handwritten notes, those sort of things. So not as much crafting as much as general, like greeting cards, notepads, notebooks.
- [18:16]
A
Is it gifting? Would you classify it as gifting or no?
- [18:18]
B
I think so, yeah. I mean, we definitely have people that are buying for themselves, but where we have the bigger opportunity is when someone Comes in and orders 20 notepads for college grads as a gift. And they all have their name on them. So we kind of go back and forth. We're a gifting brand, but we're also for the end purchaser.
- [18:38]
A
Is there a world where you could make us a gifting subscription? So someone like a business owner or a real estate agent or a mom or whoever it is, needs to give a certain number of gifts a year, she's going to do it anyways.
- [18:51]
B
Yep.
- [18:51]
A
And you can sort of automate that and have her do it in advance. And then it's just happening month after month. Like, I guess what. What I'm trying to get at here is it feels really skinny. And I'm. I'm almost curious to know if. If the numbers are correct or if you're not sure, but it feels really strange that people are coming in to a brand like yours and spending $150 and then just ghosting you, like, or coming back by chance. It feels like there should be a lot of spending happening here because the product, at least to me it looks great, the brand is great. So it just feels like there needs to be something that you can do to get people on a recurring subscription or on some kind of habit. But again, I have to imagine you've thought about this.
- [19:34]
B
Yeah, well, we definitely have. And I guess when in all things with business, it's like, what's the priority of where are we putting our time and energy? The subscription piece comes up every single, probably quarter. When we talk about, you know, what we're doing next. And you're right on the gifting front. I don't know that we could guarantee a box where she is getting. And I say she, but here she is getting the gifts needed. But what she they could get in that box is everything they would need for. Because we do a gift card holder, we have the gift tag. So everything they would need to kind of package the gift. If our product isn't it, we can serve them in that way of having the bag of tags. We have something called a car kit that's basically to live in your glove compartment. So in your running to grab a bottle of wine, going to a friend's house. So stuff like that, where it's preassembled but it's leaning into the season that they would be using it for. Does that make sense?
- [20:27]
A
It does. But something else you said, like 20 seconds ago caught my attention. You said that you're thinking about this kind of stuff, but it's always a matter of priorities. Which are we going to do? So let's just stop for a second. What is your actual constraint today, Stephanie? Because I feel like there's a bunch of stuff you could be doing better, but I'm almost wondering what is actually holding you back. You're at two and a half million dollars of revenue. It's kind of stagnant right now. You'd like to get to what, 5 million, 10 million in revenue?
- [20:55]
B
Yeah, I would say 5 would be amazing.
- [20:57]
A
Okay, so if you could double today, do you care how you double? Like, does it matter to you how
- [21:02]
B
you double at the end of the day? No, it doesn't.
- [21:05]
A
So, like, the cleanest, most friction free path of getting from two and a half million to five million would make you happy?
- [21:12]
B
Yeah.
- [21:14]
A
This episode is brought to you by my one minute marketing roadmap, available@johndavids.com roadmap in 60 seconds, you'll get a custom report showing you how people are finding your brand, where you're losing them, and how to fix it. We used a decade of data from influicity and layered in AI to give you a real action plan. It's fast, it's free, and it might just change your business. Go to johndavis.com roadmap and get yours right now. Okay, so there's like three options that are good and there's probably 10 that are terrible. And I'll just, I'll throw the kind of like we want to get onto Amazon, we want to go into wholesale because that's what everyone else does. Forget that, like, cross that off the list right away if you, from what we've talked about so far, and there's a more that I want to get into. But from what we talked about so far, I think getting better on meta. Okay, probably, like, if I'm being totally honest, that's a double right there. But that, that's almost too easy. Like, I don't, I don't want to do that yet because you could literally just do better advertising and you, you could double or maybe even triple, but you could do that without my help. It sounds like. So I don't even want to spend time on that. I feel like the piece here that is kind of dangling and is making at least me most excited is how do we build some kind of recurring revenue system? Because the best businesses get paid tomorrow for the work they did yesterday. And so it pains me that you're acquiring customers for 30 bucks and they're only spending 150. I want to, I want to See them spend a thousand in the year and it feels like, like it's right there. So first off, before I continue, tell me why I'm wrong. Have you tried this and it's just failed, failed, failed?
- [22:54]
B
No, we've. We tried it once a few years ago and we did it with a more personalized offering, which was logistically a little bit of a nightmare. So, no, you are right. And I think the meta part, I would love to learn more because I'm like, it sounds so easy and we've been with two agencies. One that we did have a scale year and then the next year was flat. And then this year as we started with someone new, it's gotten off very slow start. So curious as to like what we need to be talking to them about. And as a founder, I kind of have my hand in where I know enough to be dangerous, but in when it comes to the meta piece, I don't know enough to actually just be like, you know what, I'm just going to take it over and do it myself, which I don't want to, but I. We need a partner that obviously believes it can do exactly what you described.
- [23:41]
A
So first off, the, the founder issue that you just mentioned, I can relate to a lot and I talk to a lot of founders, whether they're doing a million a year, 100 million, a billion, everyone has the same problem that they have to break through, which is we want to do more of what we're good at, not what the business needs us to do.
- [23:56]
B
Yeah.
- [23:57]
A
And unfortunately, as you grow, especially once you get past that million dollar, you know you're at two and a half million, what gets you to that point is generally what you are very good at. A really good chef can open a restaurant and probably hit a million dollars in sales just by making good food. The problem is at that point, if they want to get to 5 or 10 million or a second or third location, they need to get good at a bunch of other things. They need to be good accountants, they need to be good real estate investors. And so that's where you start to say, okay, well, in order to become the person I need to be, I kind of need to kill the person I was. Not to say that they were bad, they were great, they served the purpose. But you're not the same person today that you were in high school. Even though I'm sure you were a good person in high school, you're a different person today. So that's. That sounds like there's a little bit of that of you are very, very good at a few things and there's a bunch of stuff that needs to get done that maybe you don't know if you're good at yet or you're not 100% sure. So that's, I think on the psychology level, maybe where you're at on the meta stuff, I'll just tell you. The way to sort of jump up to the next level is to get very good at reels and to make 90% of the ads you have reels and 10% of them carousels and still images. You're going to do fine with still images, but you're not going to be able to drive really efficient. Like, let's just get into the weeds here. We might take this out. But do you know what your CPL is like? Do you know all the little metrics or. Not really.
- [25:28]
B
Probably not as well as I should.
- [25:30]
A
Okay, that's totally fine. And honestly, you have an agency, I'm sure they'd know that. But when we get into the mechanics of meta, you know, I'm a ninja at that stuff. So I'm looking at every single metric. Are people hanging on for one second or are they hanging on for three seconds? What's the video completion rate? How many edits have I made? You know, I'm on version 19 of this particular reel. And that's the kind of stuff you have to do when you're getting really good at meta, video, Instagram, you know, YouTube, that short form video. But that alone, because you said like, what is the next step of meta? It's getting really good at video. Okay, it's that simple. Okay, let's talk about, about getting the more fun side of this, which is how do we get people to spend a lot more money? Okay, let's just talk for a minute about a subscription. What is something that you sell that people would naturally buy over and over? Doesn't have to be all your customers, but what would a pocket of your customers buy over and over again?
- [26:29]
B
Just one product or an assortment of products.
- [26:31]
A
Could be an assortment, but it has to be one person that would do
- [26:34]
B
it, I would say are kind of an assortment of. It's a tall and skinny notepad, it's a gift card holder and it's a bag of tags. And we. There is our.
- [26:42]
A
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Sorry. It's a tall and skinny notepad. Say it again.
- [26:45]
B
Gift card holders.
- [26:47]
A
Gift card holders.
- [26:48]
B
And then a bag of tags.
- [26:50]
A
Bag of tags. Got it.
- [26:51]
B
We're basically giving them something to put as the background place a Gift card in it and the tag to wrap it up. So when you're thinking of a teacher gift, and that's a huge market for us people buying for teachers for end of year or start of year, it's something we like to call like a just a little something gift. So it's. It's just a thought. And we've got those for all the seasons, those versions. So if you put those three units together, which is kind of where the quarterly box idea comes into mind, they are equipped when it's a friend's birthday and they're running to a lunch or a teacher gift on the go, without the over planning of the personalized aspect of what we do. Where you need a couple weeks to
- [27:30]
A
get a notepad in, do you sell that as a bundle?
- [27:33]
B
Yes, during the specific season. So we had a holiday one, we have a Valentine's one and we have a teacher one throughout the year.
- [27:39]
A
And what does that bundle cost?
- [27:41]
B
It kind of depends because they could buy one notepad or probably not one, but they're buying either 6, 10, 12, depending on what their needs are. And then it accommodates however many gift tags. I would say anywhere from around 80 to like 135, I think are the two different tiers of the lower quantity and the higher quantity.
- [27:59]
A
Got it. And somebody could potentially buy those four times a year or more.
- [28:04]
B
I would say two to three. I think so. I mean, yeah. Again, when we have them, Valentine's, May, April, May for teacher spring gifting and then holidays.
- [28:16]
A
And what would you call that avatar? Who would buy that three times a year?
- [28:19]
B
Me. A busy mom. Steph's her name. I would say a busy. A busy mom is, you know, a mom of multiples. That is, I mean, in the best way possible, drowning. And so. But you also want to show up like you have your stuff together, if that makes sense. Like you really want to look like you've got it all together. So she.
- [28:43]
A
How old is she?
- [28:45]
B
She is probably in her 40s and
- [28:48]
A
she's got a few kids.
- [28:50]
B
Yeah.
- [28:50]
A
And they're probably like maybe 5 to 15.
- [28:55]
B
Yeah.
- [28:57]
A
And what kind of car does she drive?
- [28:59]
B
Well, we're not going to go off of me for that. She drives a Yukon. She drives a suv, a larger suv.
- [29:05]
A
And she lives in Texas, in Florida.
- [29:08]
B
She lives in Dallas. She lives in Houston. She lives in New York. We have a big New York customer base. She lives, I would say, in the bigger cities.
- [29:16]
A
So you mentioned you have influencers. Do you have influencers that represent this avatar? Yes, and I'm guessing they resonate with the brand. They would buy it, but they also attract people who would buy it.
- [29:27]
B
Correct. Most of our top ones are customers organically and then turn into a relationship.
- [29:33]
A
And what percentage of your actual customer base today is this avatar? Is it most?
- [29:38]
B
Most, yeah.
- [29:39]
A
Okay, so you know your customer really well. And again, I'll go back. I have up on my screen here the Meta Ads library. I want to see that woman in the video in the thumbnail. I want to see her standing next to her Yukon. I want to see her with her four kids. I want to see her making lunches. The counter is full. You know, I want to see all of that, because the real trick to Meta that I've learned and I've been using for five years now is you really have to match your avatar. It's more important to talk about your avatar than it is to talk about your product. Way more important.
- [30:14]
B
Okay.
- [30:14]
A
And so if you can capture the person who is a mom in her 40s with a few kids and she drives a Yukon and she's super busy and she wants to get good gifts for the teachers, you could sell her anything. It just so happens that you sell her stationary, but you could literally sell her. You could sell her a weight loss plan, you could sell her a vacation, you could sell her marriage counseling. You send her anything you want. If you can capture that avatar so much more effectively than you could by just saying, hey, we do stationary. Because maybe she doesn't even know she wants stationary.
- [30:46]
B
Sure.
- [30:47]
A
Again, I'm sort of jumping back to the Meta Ads here, but capturing that avatar because you know her so well, like, that's something that I think is maybe not showing up in the marketing.
- [30:56]
B
Okay, what's your thought on the founder piece? Because I am who you just described. There's so much debate around, like, that's the way to build a brand. Well, I'm 40, almost 46. And that wasn't how you built a brand when I started. Now it is. So is that important that it's me doing it, or it's just someone that's relatable to them?
- [31:14]
A
Well, it's not just a debate. It's a fact. Yes, you, the founder as the personality is very effective. I think about it more in terms of a brand face. So you do need a brand face. And generally speaking, the founder is going to be the first brand face, and then you have more brand faces. So normally, and depending on what scale you were at, if you were a $10 million business, I might say, okay, you have Done the work as the brand face. Maybe you need three or four more brand faces. You need a younger person, an older person, a man, a woman, a different ethnic, different. All kinds of things. But for now, absolutely. Are you comfortable on camera?
- [31:50]
B
I'm getting better.
- [31:52]
A
You look great on camera today. So I'd say sure, yeah. This is something that I would absolutely lean into as sort of a separate conversation. It's not make or break, though. The reason is because you already have creators. You could very easily have creators do this too. If you're not comfortable, it's just easier. It's more empowered. If you're doing it, it's faster, too. It is faster. No question about that. Okay, so that's the avatar. Let's get back to the product here. So you already mentioned that you bundle something that's 80 to $150 and they're buying it getting it onto a subscription or getting it onto an upsell. Do you have any mechanism where when somebody buys this thing once, you can try to sell it to them on an upsell basis? Say, hey, do you want to get a subscription? Do you want to get more?
- [32:38]
B
Yes. So we've got both the upsell in place and the. We do have a subscribe and save. So if they bought a notepad that they want for themselves to come again in three months, that's there. So it's built into our site to make any product a subscription. The problem is, if it wasn't laid out like, they wouldn't necessarily want the teacher bundle four times a year. Does that make sense? So it'd have to be positioned as a quarterly gifting subscription. But yeah, we have it all built into where. We could probably turn that on today if we.
- [33:07]
A
So you're talking about use cases here. So you just said they wouldn't want the teacher bundle. They want that maybe in June, but they'd want something else in December. They want something else in May, right?
- [33:17]
B
Yes.
- [33:17]
A
So. So the use cases would certainly be different and you'd have to come up with what those use cases are. So maybe in June it is the teacher.
- [33:24]
B
Yeah. In.
- [33:25]
A
In December it for sure is. You know, the holidays.
- [33:28]
B
Yeah.
- [33:29]
A
And then. And then what else that you sell might she want on an even regular, like, let's say, a monthly cadence, Anything like, what about stationery? What about pens? What about anything else?
- [33:40]
B
Yeah, so that's. I think probably where we've had a hard time with the subscription piece is what. What do they need every single month without it becoming too much? You know, that's the negative of subscription is getting the same product over and over and you're like, oh, I have all these things and I'm not using them. And then they, they turn off. So I think we have enough product variation within our catalog to offer a product a month so they wouldn't have to have the same thing coming. So I think there's a way to just do something monthly on a smaller price point where they would get just that one thing. So a set of stationary in January, a notepad in February, a bag of tags in March, that sort of thing.
- [34:20]
A
Yeah, Consumption churn is a problem. The idea that you're getting too much of something, you already have enough of it, so then you churn out because you don't need more of it. It happens with, with meat, for example, I have a steak subscription service and I have too much steak in my freezer. I shut off the subscription.
- [34:36]
B
Exactly.
- [34:37]
A
So one way to get around it sounds like you have maybe a couple ways to get around that. And another way to do it is to build a community around it where you get your thing of the month and then through the community, you consume it, you use it, you gift it, whatever, and then the next month something else comes. So that's another if you want to lay around a community aspect as well.
- [34:54]
B
Yeah, the gifting aspect is huge because really they would be perfect to use or gift. So. And it could be equipping them with something they didn't actually know they needed. And then when they're looking for that little something to give to someone else, this happened to come in the mail, you know, and they can either use it for themselves or gift it. So it wouldn't be maybe too much for them personally.
- [35:15]
A
This episode is brought to you by Influicity's new tool, the AI Ads Generator, available now at johndavids.com ads Great ads aren't about luck, they're about leverage. The brands that win are the ones who can launch faster, test smarter, and outspend everyone else without wasting a dollar. That's exactly what the AI Ads generator gives you. Instant ad copy that speaks to every customer and feeds the algorithm. High performing variations your competitors can't keep up with. It's like strapping a jet engine onto your marketing. And right now it's free. Yes, it's free. Go to JohnDavids.com ads that's JohnDavids.com ads. All right, how do we sell this thing? So I have an idea. How are you getting people to buy this subscription? Or are you doing it at all successfully. You said you have maybe something in place. Is anybody picking this as a subscription?
- [36:12]
B
Not at this time. So the subscribe and Save is something that it's under 100 customers, probably have one product turned on to where they get it. Three, six, nine months out. As for the subscription, we haven't turned anything on just yet.
- [36:26]
A
How many people do you have in your email database?
- [36:29]
B
Oh, goodness.
- [36:30]
A
Is it a big number?
- [36:31]
B
I say oh, goodness because I'm not 100% sure. I would say it's probably 70,000.
- [36:36]
A
Oh, okay. It's a very big number. 70,000. So it's a very big number because I'm just thinking about Facebook retargeting here. So you have a. And I'm guessing you already do retargeting.
- [36:46]
B
We haven't done a lot in meta that way. We just do the acquisition side.
- [36:51]
A
Okay. All right. So meta retargeting for everyone listening. When you have at least a thousand, that's all you need. A thousand customer email addresses. You can put that into a custom audience on meta and you can target people like them. When you have 70,000, you have a ton of data. And then you could also do lookalikes. So you can do lookalike audiences and you can target the 70,000 people who have shopped with you or at least heard about you before. Here's what I would do. On the subscription side, do you have any kind of a landing page with a video sales letter where you or somebody talks to the camera about something?
- [37:30]
B
We don't, but we could.
- [37:31]
A
Okay.
- [37:32]
B
Yeah.
- [37:32]
A
So here's where I think we got a few paths to $5 million, Steph. Okay, so let's. You. You can choose your own path.
- [37:39]
B
Okay.
- [37:40]
A
I think the subscription win here would be to set up a dedicated landing page. You're going to have one funnel and one offer. That's all you need for this one funnel, as in you have a way of getting traffic. You already have plenty of meta ads. Great. You just got to direct some of that traffic to this page. It's going to be a single landing page with a product slash offer you can purchase. It's going to be a bundle and a subscription, and we're going to get people there. And when they land on the page, you're going to have a simple headline. And the offer, you could change this, but the offer would be something like the ultimate busy mom Gifting.
- [38:17]
B
Gifting bundle.
- [38:19]
A
The gifting bundle. Perfect. And it's going to be you on camera. You're going to start off talking to the camera and you can. You can make it fancy, have like a little set where you're making your lunches and you're doing whatever, you're outside your car and you're a busy mom and you're going, hey, Steph, I'm the founder of Joy Creative Shop, and I gotta tell you, I am so busy. I'm running my own business. I've got the family, I got the kids, I got this, I got that, I got soccer practice. But you know something? I want to be somebody who gives gifts, and I want to do it in a creative way, and I want to do it in a way that's different from everybody else. But, you know, here's the problem. I don't have time. And what you're going to do is you're going to hit Steph three points of objection. That, you know, the customer's thinking, you know, their skepticism is kicking in. So maybe it's time, you know, I also don't have the money. You know, it costs so much money. I go here, I go there, and the economy's not good. And so I don't have the money to do it. And that's why. So you do the time, the budget, and the third thing they're going to object to, okay? And then you jump over to. And that's why I created the ultimate mom gifting bundle. Here's what it is. You get a da, da, da. Because here's why I put this in, because teachers love this. And then B, I did this. And you do that whole video. It's going to be three minutes. And your structure is essentially, here's who I am, here's what I do, here's what I want. Here's the thing that we all want, and here's why we can't have it, because we don't have the time, we don't have the money, we don't have that third thing. And that's why I created this gifting bundle. You're going to go and show what that is. You're going to show lots of B roll footage of people in your store shopping on the website, all your five star reviews. And that's why I put together this bundle. It costs this much money. It's $100 a month and four payments. Or it's this money up front, or you can pay in installments, whatever that is. And this is what you get. And then scroll down, look at the awesome reviews, check out the products yourself. You can even mix and match your own combinations. And then go and order now and sign up. And if you sign up now, you can use this discount code. That simple vsl, that video and that one landing page could drive a lot of subscriptions. And then that becomes the entry point because you're already getting a ton of traffic from Meta. So now it's just like, okay, but we're driving them to spend 80 bucks, why not drive them to spend 400? And if even 20% of people do it, that's a big number.
- [40:35]
B
Yeah, that sounds amazing. The way you described it, I would sit and watch like it's television. Like I'd be invested in that video you just described because I'm like, oh my gosh, that is, that is me, that's my life. And I'd watch all the way to the end and then probably check out like knowing my personality on a product that aligns with those pain points. I think the overall production of something like that, since we are good at little reels and gift wrapping and things, I think that's probably where I would be like, well, I don't even know where to start. And then you don't do it. But I know it's possible.
- [41:08]
A
Well, here's the good news. Even the best performing VSLs and people who know how to make those videos super well are going to do fine. 5, 10, 15 versions before they hit. So don't worry about that. If you look at the titles of my VSL, the extension is always like V29 because it's the 29th version of the VSL. So absolutely. But yeah, I hear you on that and that's going to be something to get over. So this is not something that I think you will do and it'll happen in a week. But I think if you make this your two month or your three month plan and actually get it off the ground, set realistic timelines to. I think this could be a huge hero product and it'll accomplish two things. A, it'll get you kind of get your feet wet as a brand face. So number one, you can check that box. Number two, it's a way to test new types of creative because you can also make a bunch of video creative that works in Meta to drive to this specific offer. And then the third thing it'll do is it'll get you comfortable with. This is something I found with E Commerce founders in general, when we get into the conversation of offers, is that something you've thought about or even talked
- [42:18]
B
about before, meaning like a discount or a bundle or a specific.
- [42:23]
A
This is what I mean. You don't even Know what I'm talking about?
- [42:26]
B
No. Okay, you proved your point.
- [42:29]
A
When I say the word offer, I mean something that you can tell people that makes them go, yeah, I want to check that out. Like, that sounds pretty good to me. So, yes, it could be something super simple like a discount. But a discount is basically just a commoditized offer. Yeah, an offer could be something that gets you to spend $100,000. It's just a matter of how do I position this and frame this so that it's bullseye for what that person wants. And in this case, it's, you know, you have your avatar nailed down, you have the product nailed down. I think we have to think about what is that bundle and that subscription architecture. So they want to spend that extra money to get that extra stuff. And then there's going to be all kinds of things we have to think about on the back end. How do we make sure they're not churning? How do we make sure it's the right combination of items, but they don't drive us crazy with customizations and substitutes? So there's a lot of work on the back end. But just getting the offer right so that moms are clicking and subscribing to that thing, once you do that, that's going to unlock a ton of growth for you.
- [43:28]
B
Okay, that's amazing. Thank you.
- [43:31]
A
Look, I think, you know, just as a I, I always like to kind of end these strategy sessions by saying, okay, can we accomplish the goal that you've laid out? I think you're at 2 1/2 million today. Getting to 5 million, you could do by doing a better job of what you're already doing or by making more use out of the customers you already have. Okay, so I think you got two paths to get to 5 million. Which do you think you'll. You'll tackle first?
- [43:56]
B
Oh, I want to tackle both. I would say doing better at what we do well, I think it's something we could do right now. Like, again, this, the getting meta flooded with what we know to be a better format if it's video, while figuring out how to get them to return. I'm like, I don't like. I don't like either, or I want both. I think, honestly, I think the subscription piece is something that we've needed to do, and I think putting focus on that to get that recurring. It kind of does both of what you described. It takes the products that we do well and the marketing around, like the single sale, and it turns it into a multiple sale, which obviously gets that consumer back in faster.
- [44:38]
A
Have you ever had recurring revenue in your business? Okay. It'll change your life, Steph. It'll change your life.
- [44:45]
B
Done. I'm in. This was so helpful, and just having someone put your creative marketing brain on our brand was such a huge value to me. So thank you for your time. I really appreciate it.
- [44:56]
A
There you have it, guys. I think Steph has two ways to get to $5 million. Pretty clean. Number one, just get better at meta ads. I kind of like that better as the first move, actually, because she's already doing it. Get better at video. Get better at conversion rate optimization. So when people get to the landing page, they are more likely to buy. I think that could pretty quickly double the revenue because really all you're doing is getting more out of every single click. And the second way is making more money from every customer. Get on a subscription so you can make money tomorrow on the sale you made yesterday. Either one of those paths. Who knows? Maybe Steph will do both. My name is John Davids. Get my best stuff to your inbox@johndavids.com. If you're spending more than $50,000 a year on marketing, I've got something for you. It's a playbook I wrote called how to Build a Social Media Selling Machine. You can grab it now for free@johndavis.com playbook. This is the nine step formula we use for our clients at Influicity to turn their social media channels into reliable revenue engines. Grab it right now@johndavids.com Playbook.