Dan Harris On The Life-Changing Power of Meditation (June 2025)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Making Space with Hoda Kotb

Episode: Dan Harris On The Life-Changing Power of Meditation
Date: June 10, 2026
Host: Hoda Kotb (TODAY Show)
Guest: Dan Harris (Author, Journalist, Podcaster)

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Overview

In this rich, honest and reflective conversation, Hoda Kotb interviews Dan Harris, the former ABC News anchor turned meditation advocate and best-selling author of 10% Happier. Together, they explore the challenges of high-achieving careers, the realities of anxiety and addiction, what it’s like to completely shift professional identities, and, most importantly, the transformative power of meditation and self-acceptance. Both Hoda and Dan share personal moments of turbulence and growth, making this episode both practical and deeply human.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Parallel Journeys and the Leap Into Wellness

• Opening Reflection:
  Hoda notes her and Dan’s parallel career paths—from major network news to a search for deeper meaning and wellbeing.
  • “You and I are living parallel lives.” (Dan, 02:51)
• Taking the Leap:
  Hoda asks Dan if he was “terrified mid-air” when leaving ABC. Dan admits he’s still afraid and references a painter:
  • “She said she’s been terrified every day of her life but she never let that stop her from doing anything.” (Dan, 03:19)
  • Fear continues to be present, but action still happens. (03:30-03:41)

2. Early Life, Rebellion, and Privilege

• Background: Dan describes a “cushy” upbringing in Boston's leafy suburbs with academic physician parents.
• Early Struggles & Rebellion:
  • Describes himself as an anxious kid who also liked pushing limits: “I really liked the idea of breaking the law, breaking the rules.” (Dan, 06:33)
  • Ran a “successful weed business” in high school (05:54), was arrested (07:17), and did poorly academically at first, then “crushed it” in college after a conscious decision to turn things around (08:38-08:54).
• On Privilege & Responsibility:
  • “With great power comes great responsibility... We both, my son and I, came out of the right wounds. Like we just got really lucky. And there’s responsibility that comes with that.” (Dan, 07:31-08:10)

3. Addiction, Anxiety, and the On-Air Panic Attack

• Straight Arrow Turns:
  • Dan describes being “Roger Straight arrow” through his 20s, but after covering 9/11 and war zones, he became “addicted to the adrenaline” and later self-medicated with cocaine (11:04-13:03).
  • His depression was linked to an “addiction to the adrenaline of being overseas" and its aftermath.
  • On why he tried cocaine: “I was at a party and somebody offered me cocaine… it made me feel better immediately. But the next morning it didn’t feel good.” (Dan, 13:22-13:53)
• Infamous Panic Attack:
  • This live TV incident profoundly changed his direction. He observes, “That’s the, the best known thing I ever did …to the extent that anybody ever comes up and talks to me, it’s never about the news. Never, Never. That’s always about the other stuff.” (14:28-14:52)
  • “You can reinvent yourself anytime.” (Dan, 15:08)

4. Transitioning From Network News to Mindfulness Advocacy

• The Side Hustle Overtakes:
  • Dan wrote 10% Happier in 2014, documenting his panic attack and subsequent journey through therapy and meditation.
  • “Barbara Walters literally told me ‘don’t quit your day job.’” (17:33)
  • It took 7-8 years before Dan felt safe enough to leave ABC, primarily after realizing he was financially secure enough to take the leap. (19:20-20:00)
  • Financial anxiety runs deep, even with privilege: “I have this kind of ambient financial fear … that’s in my nervous system…” (19:22-20:21)

5. Meditation's Transformative Power and Accessible Approach

• Start Small, Be Gentle:
  • “I like to present a menu and to be really relaxed and gentle about it. It’s hard to form new habits.” (Dan, 20:43-21:36)
  • Emphasizes the cumulative effect of meditation: “10% compounds annually… there’s a mysteriously cumulative nature…”
  • Key insight: “To learn to not take my thoughts so seriously—and really, by extension, not to take myself so seriously.” (Dan, 21:36)
• On Anger & Acceptance:
  • “You don’t get rid of things… you just come into a different relationship with it.” (22:19)
  • Meditation is about easing your grip, not eradicating negative feelings.
• Silent Retreats:
  • Dan’s first 10-day silent retreat was “transformative”—tedious at first but clarifying. (23:05-24:21)
  • “All the crazy thoughts come, but over time, the mind gets quieter… Then you can take that into your life.” (24:30-25:53)
  • Quote: “Our voice, or the voice in our head, is often a tiny dictator…” (25:40)

6. Reinvention, Meaning & Spiritual Yearning

• Identity Shifts:
  • Dan reflects on being better known now for his meditation work than for TV.
  • “Redefining isn’t so tricky… I would say it is possible.” (26:22-26:36)
• Dissatisfaction as a Catalyst:
  • Hoda shares how a Breathwork Zoom class opened something in her—“exploded in tears”—highlighting how dissatisfaction in midlife can be a catalyst for change (26:38-27:28).
  • Dan connects this with the Buddhist concept of “dukkha” (“off-ness” or “unsatisfactoriness”): “That was dukkha.” (28:39)
  • Both discuss having “everything” outwardly, yet still feeling the “meh,” echoing Buddha’s journey: “By any quote, unquote, objective standard, you had it all... but he knew something was off.” (Dan, 28:48-29:23)

7. Trial, Error, and Continuous Growth

• Navigating Change:
  • Hoda describes the “honeymoon period” after leaving TODAY and the need to create new structure/community for herself.
  • Dan underlines that building community and “social fitness” is critical for well-being, more so than even diet and exercise:
    • “The most important variable if you want to live forever and be happy and healthy and successful is ... the quality of your relationships. That’s it.” (Dan, 41:08)
  • “Social fitness is huge, and it fits into all of this is of a piece. So keep going with that. Book those coffees.” (Dan, 41:50)

8. Lifelong Change, Self-Awareness & Service

• Parenthood & Mistakes:
  • “I continue to change and grow and make dumb, dumb, like incredibly dumb mistakes.” (Dan, 35:29)
  • His approach: “I’m just gonna do my life in public and I’ll tell you everything with the goal of being useful to you.”
• Cathartic Normalization:
  • “You are helping other people by being fully open... By using your platform to investigate things that are useful for you and ...for other people.” (Dan, 35:29-36:32)
• Self-Love vs. Narcissism:
  • Dan speaks on his next book’s (proposed) title: “Me: A Love Story”—and clarifies that “true self-love is the opposite of narcissism... you’re lighter with your own neuroses and demons and then that changes how you are with other people.” (39:08)
• No Arrival:
  • “There’s no arrival at some destination.” (Dan, 38:15-39:03)

9. What Does “Enough” Look Like?

• The Privilege and the Fishing Village Parable:
  • Dan shares a parable about a fisherman already living the “dream” that ambitious people strive for—reminding listeners to examine what is “enough” in their own lives. (43:41-45:59)
  • “One question that might be helpful to meditate on is, what's enough?” (Dan, 45:47-45:59)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Fear and Action:
  • “She’s been terrified every day of her life but she never let that stop her from doing anything.” (Dan, 03:19)
• On Reinvention:
  • “You can reinvent yourself anytime.” (Dan, 15:08)
• On Meditation:
  • “To learn to not take my thoughts so seriously—and, really, by extension, not to take myself so seriously.” (Dan, 21:36)
• On Mind’s Dictatorship:
  • “Our voice, or the voice in our head, is often a tiny dictator…” (Dan, 25:40)
• On Social Fitness:
  • “The quality of your relationships. That’s it. ... the best way to regulate your stress is to have positive relationships.” (Dan, 41:08)
• On Enough:
  • “One question that might be helpful to meditate on is, what's enough?” (Dan, 45:47)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:51 – Opening reflections on parallel career shifts and “the leap”
• 06:19-08:11 – Early rebellion, privilege, and the importance of responsibility
• 11:03-14:28 – Depression, thrill-seeking, self-medication, the panic attack
• 17:33-20:21 – Transitioning out of ABC, side-hustle to full-time wellness work
• 20:43-23:05 – The actual benefit and accessibility of meditation
• 23:05-25:54 – The “silent retreat” and its lessons
• 28:39 – “Dukkha,” universal dissatisfaction, and yearning for more
• 35:29-36:32 – Cathartic normalization and self-disclosure as service
• 39:08 – Self-love, the new book, and what it really means
• 41:08 – Social fitness: the forgotten variable in well-being
• 43:41-45:59 – The “fishing village” parable and the notion of “enough”

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Conclusion

Hoda and Dan’s conversation is filled with warmth, candor, and hard-earned wisdom. Both wrestled with change, dissatisfaction, and the search for something deeper—and now share that journey with relatable humility. Dan’s insights into meditation, self-awareness, and the underrated importance of relationships, paired with Hoda’s own willingness to grow, make this a must-listen for anyone on their own path of self-discovery.

Recommended for:

• Listeners feeling “meh” despite outward success
• Anyone curious (or skeptical) about meditation
• People navigating career transitions, especially after high-profile roles
• Those seeking practical, gentle approaches to self-improvement and lasting wellbeing

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Transcript

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[Hoda Kotb]

Have you ever met somebody and then you realized, hang on a second, their path is almost parallel to mine, except they are ever so slightly ahead of me time wise. And then you just want to know more, you want to ask more, you want to seek more. You have all the questions. Well, that's the deal for me today. So Dan Harris was a TV news journalist who covered everything from war zones to hurricanes to daily topics. He devoted a lot of his life to journalism and then he felt a calling to explore the wellness space. Does that sound familiar? Oh yeah, it does. Dan spent 21 years on network news. From a career standpoint, he had it all. But on the inside, it was a very different story. Dan was quietly struggling with anxiety, depression and addiction. He masked it well on the air until one day he suffered a panic attack on live tv. And that was the moment everything shifted. Dan ultimately decided to step away from television to explore a different path, one of wellness and treatment. He then wrote the best selling book 10% Happier, which has since become a hit podcast. The success? A testament to his commitment to not over promise happiness but but instead offering guidance on how to get just 10% closer to happy. Dan joins me today in a very introspective and raw way. He'll share what he's learned from stepping away and leaning in. I've got my pen and paper ready and I hope you do too. I'm Hoda Kotb welcome to my podcast, Making Space.

[Dan Harris]

So I've been waiting for this interview for a while because I feel like you and I are living parallel lives.

[Hoda Kotb]

You're way ahead of me, but I'm on your track. And I just wanted to ask, like,

[Dan Harris]

initially, when you made the leap from ABC to this whole new world in

[Hoda Kotb]

wellness, were you terrified midair or did

[Dan Harris]

you know, like, okay, I know exactly where I'm going, and I know why

I'm still terrified every day.

Are you?

Yeah. I mean, there's a great quote from. I'm forgetting her name. She's a female painter who said she's been terrified every day of her life, but she never let that stop her from doing anything.

Oh.

And you know, I live with anxiety and panic disorder, and it is a big part of my life, and I do all the I want to do. That's how you do it. Yeah. You just have to do it anyway.

You just got to do it anyway.

Yes.

Okay. Just. I want you to take me back, because I knew you from turning on the TV and looking at the competition on abc, and there you always were. Was journalism your think since you were young?

No, no. I had journalism and the movies mixed up in my mind. When I was young, I thought I wanted to do something glamorous.

Yeah.

And I went to film school here at NYU in New York City for a semester. I. I went to a liberal arts college in Maine, but I took a semester, went to film school, and realized very quickly I was bad at the movies. I had no real talent for that. But I took a documentary class when I was there, and I got very interested in the news at that point. And then I. As you know, it's not that glamorous of a profession, especially at the beginning. Yeah. When I was a local news reporter in Bangor, Maine, right out of college. And then I moved, kept moving south to Portland, Maine, and then Boston and then finally New York. But I loved it. You know, it was an incredible career until I decided to do something else.

Until it was.

Yeah.

Yeah. For you.

[Hoda Kotb]

So let's go back a little bit

[Dan Harris]

further, because I want to know about you before I get into your kind of career path. So when you were just a kid, what was your upbringing like? How would you describe your childhood?

Very cushy, sort of leaf suburb of Boston, and parents were academic physicians, and they're now retired. I had all the advantages one can have in life. My parents loved each other, loved us. They were super supportive. We were upper middle class.

Was it an open kind of House where you could tell your parents when something was bugging and all that stuff.

When I think back, we all have either capital T or small T traumas in our childhood. I definitely don't have any capital T traumas, but to the extent that the world became scary for me, I don't recall it being at home. I recall it being as I moved through the world. You know, I'm 53, so growing up in the 70s and 80s as a boy, there was a lot of bullying and you know, the sort of lesser versions of masculinity that I encountered. And that was where I found the struggles of being alive. But I remember home. It's possible I'm idealizing this, but I remember home as a very comfortable place.

Were you an athlete when you were a kid?

I attempted it, but that wasn't very good.

[Hoda Kotb]

What was?

[Dan Harris]

Did you have like a high school superlative? Like, how were you viewed in school?

I had a really successful weed business in my freshman year. Did you really? Yeah, I. I was really into music. I really. I played the drums. I still play the drums. I have a 10 year old son, he also plays the drums. So I was the way other kids kind of knew the shortstop for the Milwaukee brewers or whatever. I knew the bass player for, you know, the Minutemen or whatever it was. I was really, really obsessed with indie rock or alternative rock and what about

the selling weed thing? What was going on there?

You know, this was an era where we were not in the helicopter parent era. So we were feral kids, latchkey kids. My parents both worked.

Did you do it for the money?

[Hoda Kotb]

Is that why you did it?

[Dan Harris]

You wanted to make cash?

I really had a lifelong interest in pushing the limits of. It's funny because I have lifelong anxiety too. But I also got really. I really liked the idea of breaking the law, breaking the rules. And that was what got me interested in covering combat too. Because it felt. Felt like you were, you know, you should not be here.

Yes.

You know, and when I first got into covering combat, like, we didn't have rules around. You should wear Kevlar. You should wear a helmet. I didn't wear a helmet. This is embarrassing. I didn't wear a helmet because it didn't look good on tv. So like, I've always had these two tracks of one being, you know, terrified on the regular and the. And the other track of just being interested in seeing how far I can push things.

Did you ever get in trouble for any of the stuff in school?

Did I ever get in trouble? Yeah, I got in Trouble A little bit. But I got arrested a few times. Yeah. Not for weed.

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm.

[Dan Harris]

By the way, I, I thought you

[Hoda Kotb]

were just this total Roger straight her

[Dan Harris]

kid who got A's and B's in

school and went on to J school.

I did terribly in high school.

Did you?

Yes. And I got into college because I cleaned it up toward the end. And also my dad knew the dean of the college where I went. So I, I had like when I say I had all the advantages in life, I really had all the advantages. And I try to keep that in mind now. It's something I talk to my son about because he has even more advantages and than I did. We talk about Peter Parker's uncle. What? Spider Man's uncle. He said with great power comes great responsibility. So I don't lecture my son about many things, but this is the one of them. We both, my son and I came out of the right wounds. Like we just got really lucky. And there's responsibility that comes with that. He can choose how he wants to give back. I've made my choices.

That's a must.

Yes.

[Hoda Kotb]

So if you didn't do well in

[Dan Harris]

high school and you go into college because your dad kind of helps you, how do you do well in college? Like what turned it it around or did, did it get turned?

No, I, I really did turn it around. I remember the first time I called my dad and told him what my. He was on a business trip in Puerto Rico and I called him because I got my report card from my first semester at Cobley College and it was all A's and he cried because I was such a rotten kid in high school.

I have chills.

And I made a decision. I remember exactly where I was. I was driving my crappy Honda Accord. I was a pizza delivery man in the summer between high school and college. And I was driving somewhere, decided, you know, I'm going to crush it in college.

Just like that.

Yeah. And I just went for it.

That's shocking.

I know.

So sometimes you think that if you just make a decision, it can happen. I mean, just like that.

I mean, you have to do the work.

[Livy Dunn]

Yeah.

[Dan Harris]

You got to do the work.

Yeah. I didn't know that I was going to get straight A's. I just knew that I was going to apply myself for the first time. Really. And the thing about college is, unlike in high school, you can study what you want. So I was picking the courses that I was immediately interested in. And honestly, if I had worked harder in high school, I might have Gone to a different college. So there was a little bit of innate unfairness there.

When did you think or when do you think your dad was proudest of you in your life?

That's a really good question. I don't know that moment for sure.

I guess I was gonna say that sounds like one of the top.

Yeah. Well, I graduated with honors and that was. Although I graduated with honors, my parents were really excited and when they read out my name for the diploma, they called me David Harris. They were really piss. I thought that was funny. My parents were really pissed about that. You know, they were reluctant for me to go into news because they had come up through this sort of buttoned up medical school training. But eventually they got very excited about my being a newsman. They were not happy about me writing a book that talked about cocaine. So that was a dicey moment.

When you talk about the drugs, you mentioned high school, you were selling drugs.

Yeah.

When did you first use drugs yourself?

You know, it's funny, I sold weed in high school and smoked a little bit of weed in high school, but I actually wasn't. I didn't really. I still don't like marijuana. And so I was not a real drug user at all. Yeah. Between college and my early 30s. So my 20s were really what you think I was before you said Roger Straight Arrow. Like Roger Straight. I was Roger Straight arrow in my 20s. I was a local news anchor. And then I got to ABC news in my. At 28.

Wow.

And I was a really. I was pretty straight edge. I drank a little bit, but nothing really more than that. And then after 9 11, I spent a lot of time in Iraq and Afghanistan and Israel, the West Bank, Gaza, that whole thing.

Yeah.

And then I got depressed and started to self medicate with recreation. That's when I did cocaine for the first time.

So the depression came from witnessing things overseas or. Or just processing 9 11.

I think the depression really was a kind of addiction to the adrenaline of being overseas and feeling like, what could be more exciting? You're. What's the expression commonly attributed to Winston Churchill? There's nothing more thrilling than the bullet that misses you. And the bullets all missed. I had a lot of friends who got hit, who either died or got badly injured.

So witnessing horrible things, covering horrible things and all of those things. But it was the adrenaline rush of

that I would get home and even though my life was pretty exciting, I was a my early 30s and then covering presidential campaigns and all that stuff, everything seemed gray compared to that. I remember one time I Was. It was in the middle of the second intifada, so early aughts. And I was kind of cycling back and forth between being in Israel, West Bank, Gaza, and being at home. And I came home from one trip and I was. I was irritable. I was getting in fights with my bosses.

Yeah.

And they actually sent me back because I was a pain in the ass. And I landed in Tel Aviv. I was jet lagged and we went right into the west bank to cover this big protest that was happening and we covered it. And there were gunshots and I had to dive into a ditch and. And then I got in the car and we were driving back to the hotel in Jerusalem. We stopped by the side of the road to eat some watermelon, fresh watermelon. And I was eating watermelon, somewhat dazed from the jet lag, and I was like, oh, I feel better.

Isn't that so crazy?

It's crazy.

So you needed that adrenaline.

Yes.

That's a hard thing to keep. I mean, to keep that level high.

So it's a drug. It is a drug in and of itself. And I think a lot of people in our industry get addicted to it. And we see, you know, their private lives can be tumultuous as a result.

You weren't married at the time. That was.

No.

Okay.

I was aggressively not married. Yes.

So you're going home and that's when you decide to try cocaine. Just something to give you that rush, that high.

I felt I had an extended period of time where I felt off and I was doing all these medical tests. And in hindsight, it's a little funny because I was really convinced I had some sort of physiological problem. I felt terrible all the time. And I was at a party and somebody offered me cocaine. And that had happened before, but I had always said no. I was terrified. I grew up in the just say no era. And I said, yeah, I'll try it. And it made me feel better immediately. But the next morning it didn't feel good. But in that moment.

So that's when the. You started.

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah.

How bad did it get?

Not that bad, honestly. It wasn't like I wasn't high on the air when I had my now infamous panic attack. But it was kind of ambient use. I would use it on the weekends and not every weekend because often I was still traveling and covering big events. But yeah, once in a while I would use cocaine.

So you're using. And the infamous panic attack that you referred to, if people don't know you had been anchoring. So it wasn't like it wasn't your first day. We weren't just you'd been doing it, but for some reason on that day when you filled in for Robin Roberts, something inside you just. Something happened. What, what went down? What happened?

It's crazy. I was at ABC News for 21 years. That's the, the best known thing I ever did. And you will find this too. I mean, I know we're going to talk about your career transition, which I'm really interested in. I've been out for three and a half years about, like, to the extent that anybody ever comes up and talks to me.

Yeah.

It's never about the news. Never, Never. That's always about the other stuff.

Wow.

It's almost like it didn't happen. Like it happened for me, but like, it's not part of wow. Consciousness. To the extent that anybody knows who I am. I don't think that's what they think about wow.

Well, I want to get to what they do know you for now.

You really can't change what you're known for. Yeah, absolutely.

Okay.

Anybody can change. I mean, for anybody listening who may or may not have a public profile to the extent that that even matters. Like you can reinvent yourself anytime.

[Hoda Kotb]

We'll be right back with more from Dan Harris after this.

[Livy Dunn]

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[Dan Harris]

So you're a news person for all these years.

Yes.

Tell me about the leap. Why don't we just go there? Tell me about the leap.

Well, it was honestly less courageous than what you were doing because I really was clinging to two things at the same time for a long time. So I wrote a book about meditation in 2014. It's called 10% happier. It basically told the story of me having this panic attack on the air and how I learned that it was the result of cocaine afterwards. And then I did therapy for a couple of years and through that got interested in meditation. It had a big effect on me, although I guess that might be belied by the title 10% happier. But I was trying to come up with the title that would counter program against some of the over promising that I see in the self help world. And just for the record, I do believe that 10% compounds annually that there's a mysteriously cumulative nature to meditation and many other forms of self development, self growth, self improvement. So anyway, I wrote this book came out in 2014 and I did not Barbara Walters literally told me don't quit your day job. So I did not think that it was going to do anything, but I had the backing of the biggest media company in the world, Disney, and they promoted the hell out of this book and the book got really popular and I did not expect that. And it was great. It was really cool. And then I started a podcast and a meditation app and giving speeches and writing more books. It kind of swallowed my life. But I also really loved being a journalist and I had this cool job at the time I was anchoring the weekend editions of Good Morning America. Sort of like the B team. You were on the A team and I was also anchoring Nightline and they gave me kind of carte blanche to go all over the world and do these investigative stories and so I really love that great gig. And I was also afraid of giving it up. So it took seven or eight years of doing two things at once before I ultimately quit.

What was the tipping point?

Realizing that I would be financially safe? Oh, I just. I somehow. I just came to the realization that what I had built in my side hustle was enough, and I could leave, and it would. I wouldn't. I do. I do have part of my anxiety, and I've learned a little bit more about this in recent years, is around finances, even though it's irrational. Like, I never had any financial problems in my life, and this is part of my good fortune, for which I'm really, really grateful. And yet I have this kind of ambient financial fear. I learned a little bit about my family history. I had a great grandfather who was a Russian immigrant and a hustler and a con man and got indicted in the 30s and lost everything and took his own life in the family kitchen. And I realized, like, that kind of. That's in my nervous system, and it's really helpful to know that, actually. And anyway, so once I kind of realized that I was safe, I made the leap and I went to ABC and I said, can you let me out of my contract and can you also give me my podcast? And there was some back and forth and some negotiation, and ultimately they let me go.

So, I mean, you talk about how profound meditation was. I know that people listening have either. Some have tried it, some have heard about it, Some say I can't sit still. I mean, there's a million reasons people don't do it. How profound was the impact it had on you?

Really profound.

Yeah.

You know, it's. As I said before, it's cumulative. It's not like the first time I did it, I was transcending or something like that. I also want to be clear. I'm really not dogmatic. I'm. People should do what works for them. And over time, while I started out as the meditation guy, over time on my show and in my public pronouncements, I've really moved to, like, all forms of doing life better. You know, meditation, therapy, relationships. That I think is actually probably the most important thing. Sleep, exercise, diet, like, the whole package. And I like to present a menu and to be really relaxed and gentle about it. It's hard to form new habits, so I get all of that. And so I'm not trying to make people feel bad about what they're doing in their life now. I would like to say that there is a lot of evidence behind meditation as a modality.

Yeah.

And a lot of people have tried it and feel like they can't do it, but that's because we're teaching it wrong often. And actually, pretty much anybody can do it. And you talk about how if you want. But for me, it really. What was profound at the beginning and still now, is to learn to not take my thoughts so seriously and really by extension, not to take myself so seriously. And that kind of easing up, lightening up has a big impact on how you are with other people and it changes your relationships. And that's a positive cycle, a virtuous cycle.

Anger was something you wanted to get to the root of. You wanted to get rid of that. And you went on a silent retreat.

Yes.

How many days? And what impact did that. That retreat have on you?

Just to be clear, I don't think you get rid of things.

Yeah.

Aspects of your personality. I think you just come into a different relationship with it. It's like, all right, so my great grandfather was a con man who took his own life. Like, and I have a lot of fear partly as a result of that. There are many other factors. But do I want to exterminate it? No, that will just make it more powerful. Just want to have an easy relationship with it so that when it rears its head, I'm not owned by it. And that, I think is. That's the nuance that I think is really. And helps people ease up. If you're getting tense around things, it's really hard to. And I still do. Like, I'm. I have the capacity to be a schmuck in many ways. Hence the 10% happier. You asked something that.

About the silent retreat, like, why the silent retreat?

Yeah, I'm serious about that. I just want to be clear. I went on this retreat because I knew at this point I was writing a book and I needed some stuff to write about. So I don't think people listening need to feel that meditation necessarily entails a 10 day silent meditation retreat. Yeah, I was looking for, you know, in our training as TV professionals, we're always looking for the extreme things to do. Having said that, it was transformative for me. I hated it at first. I hated everybody there and I hated everything about it.

So you're just not taught. What is it? You're not talking at all.

You talk to the teacher every other day for like 15 minutes, but most of the time you're in total silence with a bunch of weirdos in Marin county. And it's everything you think it would be.

Are you journaling? What are you doing?

You're meditating all day long. I mean, I took A few notes, but you're not. They tell you don't write anything down.

Oh, so you just meditate all day.

That's hardcore. You wake up at, like, five in the morning and first session of seated meditation. Then you do walking meditation. Then there's breakfast and walking and sitting, walking, sitting, walking, sitting. Maybe some chores, like you help out in the kitchen, lunch. Walking, sitting, walking, sitting. And then there's, like, a snack in the evenings and more walking and sitting. And then there's a dharma talk where they talk to you about Buddhism and. And then more walking and sitting and walking and sitting until you collapse. Every day, all day.

That's just one day you just mentioned.

Yes. Wow. And now I do this at least once a year.

Wow.

Yes.

So what came out of it? Like, what. What did you discover?

I think it's just a deepening of what we described before that you can. You start to see aspects of, like, I'm gonna be a little grandiose here. Reality that everything's changing all the time. So we all know that everything's changing all the time, but we don't live our lives as if we know that. And we are shocked when our faces look different in the mirror. And when our friends die and when our parents die and when the careers we train for get upended by new technologies. And when you sit and just all the distractions, you know, the distractions are there. The mind is the mind. All the crazy thoughts come, but over time, the mind gets quieter and quieter and you just start to see how rapidly everything's moving. Oh, my mind is switching from thinking to feeling back pain to hearing birdsong. And the rapidity gets really clear. Then you can take that into your life. It's like, oh, okay. How can I be in a world that is chaotic and cacophonous and changing all the time? And in that process, you start to see your thoughts in a different way. They don't. They're not. As my meditation teacher likes to talk about how our voice, or the voice in our head is often a tiny dictator. You have a thought, oh, I should eat a sleeve of Oreos. Or I should say something that's gonna ruin the next 48 hours of my marriage. And you just do it. And over time, with meditation, it's like, oh, yeah, that's a thought, right?

A dumb one.

Or, that's hunger. But is it boredom beneath it?

Yeah, yeah.

Or is it loneliness?

Think about it.

Yeah.

You go deeper there.

Yes.

So you write this book, and you said it's successful. I mean, that's putting it mildly. Like it was a home run all the way. It's still one of those books that people grab. The meditation piece has been big. So you said people now, instead of knowing you for being on tv, which is you've been in front of people for years and years, they know you more for this.

Yeah.

Isn't that something?

I'm not saying I'm mobbed on the streets, but to the extent that anybody knows who I am, it's usually this.

Wow. So redefining isn't so tricky.

I wouldn't say it's not tricky. I would say it is possible.

It's possible, yes. Okay.

Yeah. How are you with it?

Well, here's what's. So January 10th was my last day here, and we are however many months we are in now. And I kind of had a similar track to you. Like, I was feeling kind of meh in my 50s, and someone had mentioned trying a Breathworks class. And I was like, I don't know

[Hoda Kotb]

so well, you just do it on Zoom. It's no big deal.

[Dan Harris]

I was like, okay. I was more like an athlete. I like to do sports. And I ate well. I thought, that's good enough. And I laid down and did it with her on Zoom and exploded in tears. And I got up and I was like, oh, my God, what was that? Like, what was that? But it started, like, when you were talking about how one leads to the next. That's what happened, actually.

It started with dissatisfaction.

Yes, yes, yes.

And I think that's.

That's important.

That's a universal. Right.

Yeah.

We know somehow something's up.

Right, Right.

The Buddha is best known, I think unfairly, for having said, life is suffering. But what he actually said was, life is dukkha. D U K K H A I believe it's spelled and that translated. That's a word from the ancient language of Pali, but it means actually, technically, the axle of, like, a cart fitting poorly in the whole of the wheel. Oh. So it just means that, like, life is unsatisfying in some way. If you're paying attention, like, what is this? Like, we're all gonna die. Like, I keep getting old. Like, I can't control the outcome. Like, I. This is my body, but, like, why can't I stop my knee from hurting? And so if you're paying attention of. Often the world thrusts this realization upon you, but if you're paying attention, there's a kind of offness. And so that can create a yearning. You might call it a spiritual yearning or some Psychological yearning. And I hear in your story when you say there was a meh ness in your 50s, like, that was Dukkha. Mm.

Yeah. Yeah, there was. I think things were good enough. It was like that. All of the things. Relationship work, all the things felt fine, but not right.

And what's amazing is you were on the top of the world. Yeah, you were. You are the co host of the number one or close to number one morning television show in the country. And all of the stuff that comes with that, the notoriety, the remuneration, all of that. You have these beautiful, healthy children. You know, by any quote, unquote, objective standard, you had it all. And this is what I think is so universal. I mean, the Buddha himself was a wealthy prince who had it all, but he knew something was off.

Something was off.

And then he went off on a search.

And it's funny, and I don't know about. You were saying it took seven or eight years to really say. And that was. I understand with the financial thing, it's like, I'm not sure if I can do it. I want to have some security. I had a weird epiphany on my. We did a 60th party out here on my birthday in August, and there was something about that day. I stood up on the stage, all these people came, and, you know, Jenna's dad gave me a painting, and I was crying, and it was like, all this. And on that day, I was like, today's the day. Like, I knew. I was like, this is it. This is the top of the wave. I know it. I'm not like, could I get high? Like, I didn't have that. I was like, yep. I went home, slept like a baby. I knew it. On that day, August 9th, I knew it. I didn't. I didn't articulate it until a little bit later, but I knew it. And I knew it with, like, warm hand on your heart, knowing it, like, it was real. And I didn't have anything started, like, in terms of. I knew I liked this space so much, and I knew it was transforming me, but I didn't really have, like, a plan for it. So for me to have worked, you know, like you did, it's like I'm used to a schedule. I'm used to a life. I'm used to traveling, meeting people, and having instant interactions when I walk in in the morning and not having to find them or seek them out. It's like, of course I'm gonna have a soul to soul con. But with Savannah in the makeup room, that's what we do every morning. And then you don't have that. So all these bits and pieces that I had been missing, and when you build something, it's a whole different animal. But here I am now, like months out, and we're gonna launch something coming up in May, and all of a sudden, it's like, turning me on. All of these modalities and things and people I'm meeting, and I'm finding all these great practitioners who help me. And I was like, you wanna try this? You wanna be part of this? I'm like, okay, what is it? Yeah. All right. So it's fun to watch it come together, but it's totally scary too, because, you know, like, with any business or with anything, you're like, is it gonna work? Is it not gonna work? You know? Do you have regrets? Do you ever think about. No. No, not for a second.

Not for a second. I remember one night after I retired, maybe the night of. Or the night after, I woke up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom because I'm of a certain age, and I was like, what the did you do? But then I went to crazy, like, I'm fine. You're fine. And I did have some feelings of like, am I disappearing in some way? And so I. I got interested in trying to do some more TV maybe. But then I was like, no, why

am I doing that?

We're in a different era. You and I grew up in an era where, yes, TV was the thing, but that it's not the thing.

Right, Right.

And I think when I left, I started to realize this place that I put so much of my self worth and focus, it's. It's a smaller thing than it was when I arrived. And there's a much bigger world out there, and so let's go investigate that.

I love that. What advice do you have for me?

I mean, you're. You're doing. From what I can tell, I have a million questions about, like, what is the business? And. But for me, it seems like you're doing the right thing. I mean, the. The idea of following your curiosity, that resonates with me because that is exactly what I've done. You know, people want to listen to what you have to say, so where do you want to take them? I think for me, moving out of the broadcast mentality into, like, building an audience that actually really cares about what I want to talk about and serving them.

Yes.

Has been transformative.

Wow.

I think the thing is, build an audience that is really loyal to you.

That's really loyal. Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

More with Dan Harris after the break.

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[Dan Harris]

I'm Hannah.

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[Dan Harris]

How did all of this change you as a husband, As a father, how are you different?

Well, the fatherhood happened right after the book came out and honestly, I mean I continue to change and grow and make dumb, dumb, like incredibly dumb mistakes. And so I'm, I'm not a perfected being or anything like that. My whole shtick and I would, I recommend this is, look, I'm just gonna do my life in public and I'll tell you everything with the goal of being useful to you. Like I'm Gonna try a bunch of things. And there's a term. I did not invent this, and I don't know who did. Cathartic normalization. You are helping other people by being fully open, by using your platform to investigate things that are useful for you and by. The transitive property can be useful for other people. And the existential crisis when I'm in that mode goes away. It's like, all right, I know my job. My job is to be useful and not in a, like, hair, shirt, catastrophic, altruistic way. I have this little tattoo. It's right next to my. I can see it. And it's a Buddhist expression. The Buddhists talk a lot about doing things for the benefit of all beings.

Yeah.

And a. All beings. Like, I'm part of that. So you can pursue. You know, I think self interest and altruism exist in a kind of mutually reinforcing double helix. Like you can. Hoda can try to build a successful business that's cool. And that business can be useful to other people. And all that can coexist nicely.

Wow. I can't believe all you've done since you left abc. I mean, I knew a little bit. I knew the book, and I knew that you were a changed being. I heard that from some sources. But, wow, this is really, really cool.

Well, I got another big thing. For me, this is actually the next book that I'm writing, although I'm really, like, really far behind. The book was due in 2020, so it's. I'm 11 years out from my first book, and I think the next book probably comes out in like. Like a year and a half, maybe.

Okay.

Okay.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay.

[Dan Harris]

I don't know.

Okay.

But the. The inciting event, the kickoff event of this next book. So if the first book was the panic attack, the next book is. I got a. Do you know what a 360 review is? Yeah. Okay. So just for anybody at home doesn't know what it is. It's an anonymous survey, often done in a corporate setting, of your boss's peers and direct reports to kind of get a panoramic sense of your strengths and weaknesses. But I added in my wife, my brother, and some friends. So 16 total people from ABC News, my startup, which. The meditation app that I used to be involved with, and then people from my personal life. And this was in 2018. So four years after the panic attack, I got this 360 review, and it was devastating. And it completely. Like, I thought I was much further along than I was. And I.

What did the peer review and the

what did it, it turned up. It talked about how I was sort of aloof and emotionally unavailable and often dismissive and rushed and over committ.

Oh, wow.

And that I could be sharp with my words. All the things that I learned from my role models in the news industry growing up from the anchor monsters I worked for. And I was bringing that into my work life and my home life. And so I went on a mission to kind of fix all that or to address all that. And three years later I got another. 360 was completely different. But I've still had trouble telling the story in the right way as I've struggled with it. And so I'm now know seven years out from the 360 and still working on, you know, like there's no arrival at some destination.

Yeah, that's cool.

It's always, it's always a working.

What's this book called?

Well, I have a title that I like, but nobody else likes it. I like the title, Me A Love Story, which I think is funny.

I think that's hilarious.

Yes, but people think then the book is about like narcissism. But actually it's, it's the opposite of narcissism. It's true self love is the opposite of narcissism because you're okay, you're not taking yourself as seriously. You're lighter with your own neuroses and demons and then that changes how you are with other people. And so this is a book that 360 is what led me to really getting interested in love as a skill. So, but just back to you for a second. I know this is your interview, but how are you doing with all of this change?

I mean the first, in the beginning there was like the honeymoon, which was really fun. It was like I was up, I was taking my kids to school, I had meetings after. It was all a flow and a rhythm. And then I think what I was used to over all these years was a place to go structure things that I realized I did enjoy. So I ended up trying to change that too. So I found a little office space in my little towns. When I walk my kids to school now I can walk to this place, grab a coffee, have a destination to go to. And I think the interaction piece, like I love building it. I loved hiring. I love all the things we're trying. I love all of the bits and pieces that are coming together. Like I think it's been super fun.

So you had a spike in your happiness after retirement and then well, quote unquote retirement and then a dip. And now that you've got some momentum on this new thing.

Yeah, it feels good. I feel like I'm working, like, a little bit more than I was before, just because. Trying to reach deadlines and stuff. But I'm learning to, like, book a coffee with somebody, book a lunch. Things I didn't have to do because it was all baked in. Interaction matters to me, and I realized that I really. Minus meetings. I really wasn't getting it. So that's the piece that's kind of big and missing for me that I've been trying to fill.

I think there's something huge in what you just said, and this, for me, is a big focus in my next book, which is that we're in an era of optimization. Everybody's, like, trying to count their steps and track their sleep on their watch and achieve ketosis and whatever it is, and that's all can be fine. But actually, the most important variable if you want to live forever and be happy and healthy and successful is none of those things. It's the quality of your relationships. That's it. Why? Because stress is what kills us. And the best way to regulate your stress is to have positive relationships. So what you're yearning for there is tune into that. Because if you can be, that's the thing. Yeah, it's called social fitness, and we worry about our mental and physical fitness, but social fitness is huge, and it fits into all of this is of a piece. So keep going with that. Book those coffees.

I'm booking them. I'm booking them. Okay, so this podcast is called Making Space. So if you have an entire day, Dan, that's all for you. There's not one thing on your calendar. Nothing to do. Wake up when your body says wake up, up, do what the first thing you want to do. Fill your day the way you want. Crash out when you feel like it. How does that day for you unfold?

I mean, that's basically my life now. Honestly, most of my life now is me doing what I want to do. There are times when I have some on my calendar that I don't want to do. But most of my days flow in a way that I said it's up to me. Sometimes I say yes to stuff I shouldn't say yes to. But generally speaking, I'm doing what I want. So, like, on a Saturday or Sunday, when there's no work thing scheduled, I sleep until 7 or something like that. And I usually work first thing in the morning, like just a little, because for Me, my work is what I love. So I usually work for an hour and a half in the morning, like just focusing on my usually this never ending book project. I'm clearest first thing in the morning. And then I will sit in meditation for a while on a good day, like 45 minutes, which by the way, you know, five minutes or one minute is good for beginners, but for me, I'm really into the practice, so. And then I'll maybe work a little bit again and then I'll work out for a while. I really like to exercise. And then I'll have lunch and then the afternoon, maybe I'll do more work or do something with my family. And then I really like to have something social at night.

Yeah, that's a great day. I love what you said was the most profound was I have those days. Yeah, that's it. That's what everybody wants. They want like that day.

And I want to be clear, I'm really aware that this is a privileged position. And again, so how am I going to use this to be of benefit?

I interviewed this guy, Sahil Bloom is his name, and he wrote a book about kind of this stuff. He told a story and he said, he goes, there's a big investment banker and he goes to some small Mexican fishing village and he walks up and he sees these guys fishing. And he sees a guy who's already got two big fish on his bo. And he says to the guy, hey, how was it? He goes, great. He goes, what are you gonna do now? He goes, oh, I'm done. I caught my fish. Done. He goes, well, now what? He goes, oh, well, I'm gonna go home and, you know, have lunch with my wife and probably take a nap. And then we're gonna cook these fish up and we're gonna have a little barbecue. And then I'm gonna go out with my friends and we're gonna go dancing. He goes, wow. He goes, okay, cool. He goes, but you know what? You could really crush it here if you wanted. He goes, what do you mean? He goes, well, if you fished for like four more hours, you'd have more fish. You could sell some and have some and then you could make some money. I was, aha. And then what? He goes, and he goes, oh. And then, God, think about it. If you make enough money, you could probably buy that boat and you'd have both boats. You'd be able to make enough money and have enough fish, and you'd really be, you know, on top of the world. He goes, you could actually own this port. I'm just watching you.

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm just giving you advice.

[Dan Harris]

I'm an investment banker. And the guy says, well, and then what? And he goes, look, you could chill out. You could go to some village. And he goes, you mean a fishing village? He goes, and fish when I wanted, eat lunch with my wife, go out with my friends. He goes, buddy, I already got that. And that's what we're all striving for. The thing we probably had when we were younger. I remember I interviewed Magic Johnson and I said, when were you your happiest? And he goes, I know when I was my happiest. I said, when? He goes, I'm in a college dorm with Cookie. Cause he was dating her even then. And he goes, and we scrounged up nickels and dimes and quarters and we got two slices and two Cokes and we lit a candle. Like he was describing the most basic of things. And I thought, man, like, we're all, like, searching for the thing we had, you know? But anyway, all those things. Remind me when you said, I have that now. A lot of people probably have some of that and don't realize it.

That's true.

You know, it's there.

And I want to acknowledge there are many people who are in economic circumstances that are really uncomfortable. I would say that one question that might be helpful to meditate on is, what's enough?

That's a great question.

You have to figure it out for yourself.

All right, what's enough?

[Simplisafe Announcer]

Along with that.

[Dan Harris]

Thank you so much, Dan. I appreciate it.

My pleasure. Spice up good.

[Simplisafe Announcer]

This guy's so good.

[Hoda Kotb]

Hey, guys, thank you so much for listening and for coming on this journey with me. If you like what you heard, and I hope that you do, please give Making Space a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts.

[Dan Harris]

And make sure you tell your friends.

[Hoda Kotb]

Follow us on Apple Podcast, Spotify or wherever you're listening right now. Making space with Hodakot Be as brief, produced by Allison Berger along with Kate Saunders. Our associate audio engineer is Juliana Masterilli. Our audio engineers are Katie Lau and Mark Yoshi Zumi. Original music by John Estes. Bryson Barnes is our head of audio production. Missy Dunlop Parsons is our executive producer. Libby Least is the executive vice president of today and lifestyle.

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[Dan Harris]

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