Esther Perel on Why Desire Fades and How to Find Romance Again

Summary

Podcast Summary: Making Space with Hoda Kotb

Episode: Esther Perel on Why Desire Fades and How to Find Romance Again
Date: July 29, 2026
Hosts: Hoda Kotb, guest Esther Perel

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Overview:

In this episode, Hoda Kotb sits down with world-renowned psychotherapist and bestselling author Esther Perel to delve into the complexities of intimacy, desire, and connection in modern relationships. The conversation explores why desire often fades in long-term partnerships, how individuals—and especially women—can reignite a sense of aliveness, and practical wisdom for finding romance, navigating betrayal, and redefining love at every life stage. Esther’s compassionate, unfiltered insights are interwoven with her signature warmth and humor.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Craving for Genuine Connection in a Contactless World

• Isolation in Modern Life

  • [02:36] Esther Perel: “What people are craving more than anything is real, authentic, embodied sensory experiences.”
  • Technology creates an illusion of connection (FaceTime, Instagram), but people’s expectations have lowered—they don’t realize what they’re missing compared to real, in-person experiences.

• The Diminishing of Expectations

  • [03:50] Esther Perel: “People are satisfied because their expectations lower, because they expect less. They actually are pleased with what they get, but they actually don’t know that this thing could taste very differently.”
  • Metaphor of the strawberry: Many accept bland experiences because they’ve forgotten the fuller “taste" of true, lived connection.

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Good Enough vs. Alive Relationships

• The Value and Limits of “Good Enough”

  • [05:24] Esther Perel: “For a lot of people, good enough is so much more than anything they’ve ever known…good enough means stability, security, predictability, companionship, relying on somebody, trust—things that they never had.”
  • She cautions against pushing everyone to chase “the mountain top” and recognizes the comfort in the plateau.

• Defining 'Alive' Relationships

  • [07:05] Esther Perel: “Aliveness is that erotic charge—but not in the sexual sense…the real mystical meaning. Aliveness means curious, radiant, vibrant, vital, playful, imaginative.”
  • Alive couples “laugh, have fun, surprise each other,” balancing individuality and togetherness.

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Reigniting Aliveness: The Role of the Self

• Self-Awareness Exercises

  • Esther invites listeners to reflect:
    • “I awaken myself when…”
    • “I flatten out or numb myself when…”
  • Hoda participates, sharing:
    • [09:43] Hoda: “I awaken myself by…seeing a sunrise in the morning while everyone’s still asleep...playing with my kids...running.”
    • [10:22] Hoda: “I flatten out when I feel overworked and depleted…when I’m spread too thin.”

• The Brake and Accelerator Metaphor

  • [11:17] Esther: “You can work on the brakes or you can work on the accelerator. You need to loosen the brakes. And then you need to go and do those very things that give you that life energy.”
  • Focus on small acts that restore energy, joy, and autonomy—not grand escapes.

• [12:27] Notable Quote:

  • Hoda: “That is so profound and beautiful.”
  • Esther: “It’s simple, and people instantly know…when I take care of myself, when I pamper myself, when I see my friends, when I read a good novel...”

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Why Desire Fades—and How to Revive It

• Love vs. Desire

  • [13:10] Esther: “Isn’t it ironic that often sex makes babies and babies spell erotic disaster in couples?”
  • The shift: From duty-based sex to desire-based sex—a relatively new concept historically.
  • [14:39] Esther: “The very elements that nurture love…are sometimes the very ones that stifle desire. Love wants to know the other person. Desire needs more mystery.”

• When Are You Most Drawn to Your Partner?

  • Esther's global research finds four core answers:

    1. When they’re in their element, self-sufficient and confident ([16:32] Hoda: “When he was in their element...whether it was watching them play golf, or in front of a crowd.”)
    2. When they surprise you or show rarely-seen traits
    3. When you see them with your children (for women: seeing tenderness and a new side; less common for men)
    4. When you’re apart and then reunited, or when you see your partner through others’ eyes

  • [17:54] Notable Quote:

    • Esther: “If they don’t need me, I can admire them, which involves an idealization...that is the grist of the mill of desire and the want.”

• Practical Takeaways for Couples

  • Rediscover each other’s passions, create opportunities for mystery, adventure, and admiration, not just efficiency and caretaking.

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Navigating Exhaustion, Parenthood, and Modern Marriage

• Tiredness and Community Support

  • [21:03] Esther: “Families do not exist in a vacuum. And couples don’t exist in a vacuum...the survival of the family depends on the happiness of the couple.”

• On Staying for the Kids

  • Esther explains that while couples sometimes stay together for children, the divorce rate spikes “three years into children, not on the other side.”
    • [22:40] Esther: “The couple is what decides if the family will survive.”

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Gender Dynamics in Desire

• Caretaking as a Desire-Killer for Women

  • [25:54] Esther: “You won’t be turned on if you’re in the role of the mother.”
  • Esther explains the evolutionary, biological, social and cultural conditioning of women to care for others, making it hard to focus on personal pleasure.

• Men’s vs. Women’s Triggers for Desire

  • [26:04] Esther: “Many heterosexual men in my office will say, nothing turns me on more than to see my wife turned on...If my woman is into it, then I know I’m not forcing her...I am not being predatory.”
  • For women, the focus is more on their own sense of pleasure and relinquishing caretaking, rather than their partner’s arousal.

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Rethinking Dating and the Myth of the Checklist

• Checklists Don’t Inspire Adventure

  • [28:22] Esther: “You’re not going for a job interview. You’re going for a date. A date is supposed to be an adventure, not an interview.”

• Better Ways to Date

  • Incorporate new people into your actual life, activities, and friend circles—instead of sterile interview-like dates.
  • [29:24] Esther: “A date based on data points is not a date...watch the person interact with the world.”

• Online Dating & Chemistry

  • [31:02] Esther: “More and more people want certainty before they even have chemistry...They want the story told before the title has even been written.”

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Betrayal and Infidelity: Fatal or Fixable?

• Not Always a Deal Breaker

  • [31:46] Esther: “For some couples, infidelity is the death knell...for others, it is an alarm system that jolts you out of your complacency.”
  • Cultural history: infidelity used to be a man’s privilege; now it’s often considered the worst betrayal due to romantic ideals.

• Repairing Trust After Betrayal

  • Three essentials for healing:

    1. Acknowledgement of the betrayal ([33:18] Esther: “Otherwise, you’re like in two completely separate realities...”)
    2. Remorse and a sense of conscience
    3. Demonstrable effort to repair and take responsibility

  • Understand that the “hurt partner” may ask repetitive questions—not from annoyance, but as part of sense-making and healing.

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Expanding the Definition of Love

• Love Beyond Romance

  • [37:26] Esther: “I do believe in love, but I need to make clear that the concept I’m talking about is much broader. I think friendships are extremely important...Mentorship, partnership, creative engagements with others. There’s a ton of other relationships that we need in order to exist and…for our romantic relationships to thrive.”
  • One person cannot meet all your needs; nurturing multiple relationships is crucial to well-being.

• It’s Never Too Late for Love

  • Flexibility, unexpected chapters, and redefinition of family and care—all hallmarks of our era.

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Memorable Closing: Esther’s Ideal Day

• [39:45] Esther: “The essence of a day like that is no planning and no place to get to on time. So it’s the abolition of structure...A good day is a day where I’m physically exhausted at the end—not mentally exhausted, which is often the case, but physically where I feel like, have really, like, pushed.”

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Highlighted Quotes

• On Modern Connection:

  • “What people are craving more than anything is real, authentic, embodied sensory experiences.” – Esther Perel [02:36]

• On Aliveness in Relationships:

  • “Aliveness means curious, radiant, vibrant, vital, playful, imaginative.” – Esther Perel [07:05]

• On Desire:

  • “Desire needs mystery. Desire needs surprise. Desire needs an element of discovery…Love wants to narrow the distance. Desire actually needs a bit of space so that in between here lives the erotic elan.” – Esther Perel [14:39]

• On Repair After Betrayal:

  • “If you don’t acknowledge...that this even happened, otherwise, you’re like in two completely separate realities.” – Esther Perel [33:23]

• On Dating Today:

  • “A date based on data points is not a date.” – Esther Perel [29:24]
  • “More and more people want certainty before they even have chemistry.” – Esther Perel [31:13]

• On the Burden of Expectations:

  • “We have basically enlisted one person to give us what an entire community used to provide. And that has to change.” – Esther Perel [37:36]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:36] Craving for real, embodied connections
• [05:24] Good enough vs. alive relationships
• [07:05] What makes a relationship 'alive'
• [09:43] Self-activation & small acts that spark aliveness
• [13:10] Why desire fades: Love vs. desire dynamics
• [16:32] When are you most attracted to your partner?
• [21:03] Couples, parenting, and community
• [25:54] Gender differences: caretaking and desire
• [28:22] Why checklists don’t work for dating
• [31:46] Infidelity: betrayal, repair, and culture
• [37:26] Redefining love and circles of care
• [39:45] Esther’s 'perfect day'—the abolition of structure

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Conclusion

Esther Perel’s conversation with Hoda Kotb offers a compassionate, invigorating roadmap for anyone wrestling with the realities of modern connection, faded desire, and the pursuit of authentic, lasting love—whether in romance, friendship, or family. Rooted in honesty and practical wisdom, this episode is a guide to making space for self, rekindling relationships, and finding meaning in our connections at every life stage.

Transcript

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[A]

There is a particular kind of silence you feel when two people sit in the exact same room but no longer live in the same world. Most of us know that feeling. It's a longing to connect, to feel seen and understood. And the uncertainty of how to bridge the distance when relationships start to drift apart. Well, for decades, Esther Perel has stepped into that space. As a world renowned psychotherapist, a New York Times bestselling author and podcaster, Esther has helped millions of people rethink the meaning of intimacy and trust. And she never shies away from the messy parts of being human. Instead, she finds the power within them. Esther was born in Belgium to Polish Jewish Holocaust survivors and raised in a community defined by the necessity of rebuilding. That legacy of resilience became her blueprint. The belief that even after the deepest trauma, the heart can still make space for connection. Today, we explore the journey of love and the strength it takes to truly see one another. I'm Hoda Kotb, and this is Making Space. First of all, Esther, I just want to say I'm so excited to be sitting with you. I've interviewed you just once on the Today show. It was for five minutes and I didn't get my fill of what I wanted from you.

[C]

I'm back. It's a full meal.

[A]

Oh, I get the. Oh, the full meal. I love it. I love it. Okay, so you obviously talk to tons of people. You've done tons of sort of research through your work. What is the thing that most people are craving right now?

[C]

I mean, people always crave human connection, but craving human connection at a moment where our life is more and more contactless. I just walked here on the floor, entered a room with about 50 desks. And there is not a person sitting. Where is everybody? Where are the people? They are at work and they are not here together. They are more and more isolated. They are in an environment that promises them frictionless living on a screen where they don't have to smell, where they can't touch, where they see you. And they think they are having eye contact, but they don't. And what people are craving more than anything is real, authentic, embodied sensory experiences.

[A]

But they are so locked in to that sort of FaceTime. I saw you. I already know what you're up to us there. I saw you on Instagram. You must have had a great vacation. There's nothing that's direct, but do you think people are. I feel like they feel like they're getting filled up with all those bits and pieces.

[C]

So one of the most interesting things about the research that used to be done, by the way, about therapy, therapy online versus therapy in person. The assistance of technology in multiple ways. And the principle is this. People are satisfied because their expectations lower, because they expect less. They actually are pleased with what they get, but they actually don't know that this thing could taste very differently. We just had this metaphor of a full meal. You know, if you're used to eating something that has no taste, you are satisfied that the strawberry tastes nothing like a strawberry, but you eat it. Once you've actually tasted a strawberry, real strawberry, you realize what the taste is meant to be. Then your expectations change. And then the next time you get a bland taste listing, you can compare. What makes us accept certain things is the fact that our expectations lessen.

[A]

That's interesting because this sort of brings me to this thought. Like a lot of people are in relationships, real relationships, where they are almost like on parallel paths. They've been in relationship for a long, long time, and they call it good enough. This is good enough. This is what marriage is. This is what relationships are. I'm satisfied because this is what life is, not is hearts and flowers and romance. Sometimes we just live these kind of lives and people think that's normal.

[C]

So there are two ways I would address this. On the one hand, I would say for a lot of people, good enough is so much more than anything they've ever known. And not everybody wants to climb Mount Everest or Mount Olympus. I think that we are so reluctant these days to accept the good because we are constantly chasing the perfect. And for many people, good enough means stability, security, predictability, companionship, relying on somebody trust things that they never had. And I think we should stop making people constantly want to climb the mountain when they actually realize that the valley is fine. For them, the plateau is fine. But for those for whom the plateau is not enough. What happens today, and this is actually the work of Eli Finkel, is that when you climb the mountain, you are clear that the view from the top is something way different than the view from the mid level. But not everybody can get to that top. So the good relationships of today are actually much better than the relationships of the past, where people can have aspirations and can have all kinds of expectations that that's how life is. Attitude does not give you. But not everybody wants to do that climbing. And I think the best way for me to distinguish this is that there are relationships that survive. There are relationships that are living, and then there are relationships that are not dead. And on the other side, there are relationships that are alive. Not just living, but alive.

[A]

Alive. What is that? What's the difference?

[C]

That means that aliveness is that erotic charge, but not in the sexual sense of the word. In the real mystical meaning. Aliveness means curious, radiant, vibrant, vital, playful, imaginative. That dimension of life that is not just my life works. It works. It's efficient. It's as is. I get the stuff done. That description of this is how it is. No, I actually come with an aspiration that my relationship will help me become the best version of myself, will nurture me. Is an adventure is not just a functioning system, but it has an element of adventure, of striving, of reaching for something more to it. And everybody understands the difference between not being dead and being alive. Every relationship knows that you look at a couple or even people in a family, and you know, these people, they are alive. They laugh, they have fun, they surprise each other. They manage that intricate dance between how much to be together and how much to be individual.

[A]

Can you get there? Because, I mean, saying you're satisfied on a plateau doesn't mean you're satisfied with a dead sort of unalive relationship. Can you go from a relationship that feels sort of lifeless to that imaginative. Cause most people. I just had this retreat with 250 women and they all came and they all kind of had a similar thing, you know, which. Which is in their life. They don't have this spark. They all kind of felt a little dead inside.

[C]

Yes, yes.

[A]

They felt like they needed paddles.

[C]

Yeah, I've been at that retreat myself.

[A]

You've been at the. Okay, so they're seeking that thing that you're describing. And when you were even saying the words, I Was like, yeah, who wouldn't want that? All those beautiful things.

[C]

And the majority of the time they come to ask for a permission to not be mired with the burdens of caretaking, where they worry about everybody else and everyone else should be okay. And once that happens, maybe they can pay attention to themselves. And one of the questions I love to ask women who are experiencing that is this. If I ask you, I can ask you. I turn myself on when I awaken myself. I ignite myself. I feel alive when. Which is not the same as you make me. You turn me on. You awaken me when. Or what turns me on. What awakens me is so what?

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I awaken myself by.

[A]

I awaken myself by. I would say seeing a sunset in the morning while everyone's still asleep.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

I would say playing with my kids.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Makes me.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Playing with the dog. What else makes me feel alive? Running. So what do those things have to do with.

[C]

I'll tell you, then I'm gonna ask you just for a moment. The reverse. I turn myself off. I extinguish myself. I numb myself. I flatten myself by and when. Which is not the same as you turn me off when. Or what turns me off. What numbs me is, oh, okay.

[A]

So I flatten out when I feel overworked and depleted. That's number one. When I'm spread too thin, when I'm trying to be everything for that depletes me and makes me feel in a funk. I get in a funk when my kids don't listen.

[C]

Yep.

[A]

Of course I get in a funk when I feel like everyone's taking and I'm not getting anything right. Okay.

[C]

So the first version, when I watch the sunset and everybody's still asleep and I don't have to think about anybody else and I can just purely admire and enjoy. When I play with my kids, it's playful. I'm not busy telling them what to do. I'm not in responsibility mode. I'm not taking care. I am in a playful mode. Playfulness means that I feel free and I'm self conscious. I'm certainly not in the realm of responsibility when I get to be. What was the third one?

[A]

I don't remember. It was so great. But all of them, all of them.

[C]

All of them basically say, when I am not in charge. Yes. That's when I'm not in charge, when I'm not responsible, when I'm not worried, when I can turn the lens onto myself and. And just be and enjoy and have fun. And then the Next question to all these women is, when's the last time you did this? And if you get, you know, the last time I got to actually be, you know, is six months ago. You know, I don't know. I don't get to play with my kids. I don't know. I don't get to see my friends. I don't get to listen to the music. I don't get to go to the live show. I don't get to go to the climb mountains. Then you say, that's why you're in a funk. You can work on the brakes or you can work on the accelerator. You need to loosen the brakes. And then you need to go and do those very things that give you that life energy from that place. And those are small things. How long does it take to see a sunrise, you know, or a sunset? I mean, it's not like we're giving, we're saying, I can't take a week off and go away somewhere. No, it's just a moment. And many women are depleted because that moment becomes far and elusive.

[A]

Oh, my God, by the way, that is so profound and beautiful.

[C]

It's simple and simple, because people have a list. They instantly know when I take care of myself, when I pamper myself, when I see my friends, when I read a good novel, when I watch a show and I can actually remember the beginning, when I reach the end, you know, that kind of thing.

[A]

Oh, that's beautiful. What about people are in relationships, long term marriages where sex is not part of it anymore just because of either it's the kids, the kids always need me, I'm too tired. Or, and he seems disinterested, or he's interested and I'm not interested. How does one reignite a spark that seems like it's extinguished?

[C]

So first I would say the question of the spark is for all couples. Same sex, couples, couples. It's actually, it's really interesting. This is the 20th anniversary of my book Mating in Captivity, which was that question. Actually two of the things you just said. One was, isn't it ironic that often sex makes babies and babies spell erotic disaster in couples? And then more importantly, what made me write the book was that as a therapist, which now is 40 years of working with couples, I would see more and more people come into my office and say, we love each other very much. We have no sex. We all knew about people who can't stand each other, argue a lot are depleted, and then don't want to touch each other. That's nothing to write about, but why did people come and say, I love my partner, I don't want to be anywhere else and I can't access desire. And so that's what this whole book was about. Why does good sex fade even in couples who continue to love each other as much as ever? And why is that question important? Because it's not so long ago that our sexuality inside marriages shifted from a woman's marri to it being organized around desire. Wanting. Desire is to own the wanting. I'm in the mood, I feel like it, I want it. And now when people are wondering, well, why don't I want it? I can, I can do what I want and I don't feel like it,

[A]

I don't feel like it.

[C]

Right. Make me want. It's basically what they say to their partner, make me want. Do something that brings this back. Which is why the question I turn myself on versus you turn me on and off. And not just sexually in the full sense of the word. And the whole conversation for me of this book was love and desire. They relate, but they also conflict. And the very elements that nurture love, worry, caretaking, responsibility, devotion, even anxiety over the well being of the other person. Those elements that nurture love are sometimes the very ones that stifle desire. Love wants to know the other person. Desire needs more mystery. It needs surprise. It needs an element of discovery. Love wants to narrow the distance. Desire actually needs a bit of space so that in between here lives the erotic elan. Love wants to numb all tension. Desire often needs some of it. And the very things that nurture love are sometimes the ones that stifle desire. Desire doesn't want to take responsibility. The question I ended up asking because like the one so fascinating. Yeah. When? And I'm going to ask it with you again.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

When do you find yourself most drawn to your partner? Not just sexually drawn to in the broad sense.

[A]

Okay. When former partner, but when he.

[C]

Partner. Partners.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. When they were in their work, like in their element. Yeah, in their element. Whether it was watching them play golf. Cause they dominated. Or on the tennis court or in front of a crowd that was like always a wow. Cause I was like kind of admiring.

[C]

Right, right.

[A]

And why.

[C]

Look, first of all, this is answer number one. Worldwide.

[A]

Oh, it is?

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Okay. Worldwide. I've gone around and around. It's unbelievable. But now why do you think that that's what's in that?

[A]

What's in that? What is in that?

[C]

So first of all, give me two more.

[A]

Two more. Okay. When he's playing Sports, like when he's like, you know, lifting weights. Like, I just thought that was like, oh, wow. And when he was holding our daughter.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So this is beautiful because it's like we are literally together building the theory of mating in captivity. As I would say, desire needs space. Desire needs mystery. Desire doesn't like to have responsibility. It's abstract. But then when I ask this question, I would literally around the world, I would get four groups of answers. First one, first and foremost, when my partner is in their element, when they're competent, when they're radiant, and especially when they're self sufficient. Yes, they don't need me. And if they don't need me, I don't have to take care of them. I don't have to be responsible, I don't have to be motherly. I can retrieve the woman from behind the mother and I can want them.

[A]

That's big.

[C]

That was the key of this thing. When they don't need me because they're in their thing, I can admire them, which involves an idealization. I can look up to them and all of that is the grist of the mill of desire and the want.

[A]

Big. That's big. Okay.

[C]

Number two was when they surprise me.

[A]

Ah, that's good.

[C]

When they surprise me, often it's when they make me laugh, when they dress up, when they are. When I see. Sometimes it's when they're vulnerable because I saw a side of them that I don't usually see. If they're always vulnerable, then it's not a turn on. But if it's a piece of them that I don't usually have access to, suddenly I'm invited in to the antechamber of this other person. The third one was when they. Which by the way is never in the opposite gender. I have. It's not. No, no. Men are not turned on when they see women play with the kids. That's what mothers do, you know. Whereas, because it's so unusual, because it's again, not an aspect that you're familiar with them. When they hold the child, that tenderness comes out, that broader element of masculinity. So that one. Classic, classic. And then the next one was when we are apart. Because desire is often also about absence and longing. When we are not together, when I haven't seen you, when we reunite, all of that tension that love doesn't necessarily feed on. And the next one was when I see my partner through the eyes of another, when they're at a party, when they're talking to other people. When the dyadic bond is momentarily opened up and someone else sees your partner with the eyes that you no longer see them. Oh, and once I got that, but especially the first one, when they are in their element, I understood desire feeds on different ingredients than love. They are connected, but they don't eat the same primordial elements.

[A]

By the way, this is so fascinating to me. So if I'm someone who's in a relationship that feels like meh. But you're now describing these things. How do I take what you're saying and. And apply it in life?

[C]

Well, the first thing is I ask you that question because by your answer then I will. You know, you say when they're in their element. I say same thing. When's the last time you sat? You tell me I'm drawn to my partner when they're at the piano. When's the last time you actually sat and listened to them when they play? When's the last time you asked them to read out loud to you? When's the last time they cooked for you? When's the last time you just took a day off and didn't know where you were going? And you had no idea where it's gonna start, nor where it's gonn open endedness, that leaping into the unknown, that sense of mystery and adventure there is where desire lives. It doesn't live in Victoria's Secret, by the way. And there is no Victor secret. Let's be very clear. Who's supposed to take care of this? You know, it really. It starts earlier, upstream. It's not like 11 o' clock at night. Suddenly you're gonna put something on after you've done all your chores and it's just gonna. This is crazy.

[A]

What about when you really are tired because of little kids? You're just exhausted.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

You don't have any juice.

[C]

That's right. Sometimes you have no juice. And then I ask you, when's the last time you did anything, if possible, that gave you juice? And for that you need a community. You may not have the means to pay and you may not always have family near you, but you need a community near you. Families do not exist in a vacuum. And. And couples don't exist in a vacuum. And why does all of this matter? Because this is the first time in the history of humankind that the survival of the family depends on the happiness of the couple. And most of the world. It still is not like that you marry. It's for life. You like it. You don't like it. That's it too bad, too bad. But we have decided that marriage needed to reach a certain quality of relationship in the couple. And if it is not so, we will dismantle the family in order to preserve the happiness of the individuals. That is the Western model. So on the long list of what your kids need, make sure that attending to your relationship features on the list.

[A]

Do you think that that's the right way? Because I mean, couples do stay together for the kids.

[C]

Yes, prolonged. We live twice as long as 100 years ago. It's okay, we can stretch it a few years, but by the end, 50% almost of the families do dissolve, you know, so do something for the couple. The couple is what decides if the family will survive. And by the way, the majority of people, the highest rate of divorce is three years into children, not on the other side.

[A]

Oh, is that right? Yes, three years into children.

[C]

So people stay for the kids, but not as much.

[A]

Okay. More with Esther Perel when we come back.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[C]

So I wouldn't have to buy a new phone?

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[A]

Infidelity or betrayal? Call it what you want.

[C]

Before we go to infidelity. How is this sounding so far, by the way?

[B]

I.

[A]

If I had a bowl of popcorn, I would just sit here and listen to you all day. It's so good, it's so interesting. And I feel like one of my favorite things to do in life is learn. And I'm sitting here listening at the foot of the expert. So I'm fascinated by everything you're saying.

[C]

Would your 250 women have been able to.

[A]

Yes, they would have, by the way, because you gave something to do. And you also had another way of looking at yourself. Because I was sort of like, he's cute. He turns me on. What? That is. That turned me on. I didn't really think about what I was doing.

[C]

You won't be turned on if you're in the role of the mother.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You won't be turned on if you are taking care of someone and being responsible for them. You will be loving but not desiring, not turned on.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And every woman knows that. Let me. Can I give you another version of this? That is because you asked about sexuality. Many heterosexual men in my office will say, nothing turns me on more than to see my wife turned on. Oh, nice, kind, generous, beautiful. Why? Because if my partner. Now I'm talking in a hetero model. If my partner. If my woman is into it, then I know I'm not forcing her and I'm not making her and I'm not hurting her and I'm not being predatory. It is so important for her to be into it, which is why he doesn't want just pity sex and favors many of them.

[A]

Wow, that is interesting.

[C]

I have yet to hear a straight woman in my office say, nothing turns me on more than to see him turned on. Yeah, right. It's kind of irrelevant.

[A]

True.

[C]

If she's into it, it'll be great, but if she's not into it, he can be standing there in every position possible. It will not do anything to her because the shop is closed.

[A]

The shop is closed.

[C]

What turns her on then is what if it's not what happens to him, it's what happens to her.

[A]

To her. Yeah.

[C]

And for that, she has to relinquish for a moment the burdens of caretaking. If the block for him is the predatory fear, the block for her is the burden of caretaking.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

That means she has to put the focus on herself for a moment in a good narcissistic investment in the best way that the word narcissism is used, because that word has been completely destroyed. As in, I give myself the permission to make myself feel good, to allow myself to experience pleasure. Pleasure, in the broad sense of the word, that is how deep this goes. Because she is evolutionary, biologically and socially and culturally primed to think about others.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

This is so good. I want to get to betrayal in a second, but I want to ask about. There are people who are looking for someone. They want to find their man. They're like, I'm at the bar, I'm getting set up, and they have things in their head. I want him to be this agent.

[C]

A checklist.

[A]

A checklist?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Anything wrong with a checklist?

[C]

Everything.

[A]

Oh, okay, tell me.

[C]

Well, because you're not going for a job interview. You're going for a date. A date is supposed to be an adventure, not an interview. Okay. I sit across the table from you, I can barely hear you, there's a bunch of noise, and I start to ask you the most boring questions. It's a terrible way to date.

[A]

So how do you. So instead of a checklist.

[C]

So what do you like to do? What do you like to do? Meet someone. Bring that person into the thing you were going to do that may even involve your other friends so that you don't leave your life to go. Dating, a sterile environment that starts often online, that then takes a long time to manifest in person. And it's two things. One, bring the person along. You want to go to a movie, you want to go to a museum. You want to go rollerblading. You want to go whatever you want to do. Biking, physical, bring that person along with you. You will have a ton of things. A date that is based on data points is not a date.

[B]

Data points.

[C]

That's so good. It's just like, you know, check, check, check, and then you check, check, check. And in the meantime, you're hoping that butterflies will somehow manifest in your belly. And then you say, I just didn't feel it. Excuse me? It's nothing to feel. You know, watch the person interact with the world. Watch them talk to waiters. Watch Them, talk to your friends, watch them, have ideas, suggestions.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Live, live, you know, so that is the first thing. The second thing is I actually really do think that if you have a life with friends, bring the date into that. Most of the time, people are shocked at first at this idea these days because all the dating takes place far away until one day you come and you do the big reveal, you know, and now you're waiting for the opinions of everyone versus I met someone. I'm bringing someone along. You will see, you will know, and you won't have the feeling that three times a week you were away from your life. Dating. Depleted from it, really. Not very happy about what happens there. And then feeling like you're not in your life. And I promise you, I don't often say, do it differently like this, but I have proof.

[A]

Yes, you do. Proof's in the footing.

[C]

Yeah. It changes things because so much of the dating these days is not fun. And it's meant to be an exploration, an adventure, discovery, and then in between, there's a few people. You say, oh, my God, what was that? But not the whole thing.

[A]

You're missing out on such a. Yeah.

[C]

What do you want to do when you're looking for a soulmate on an app?

[A]

Exactly. You think meeting online's fine, though? To start?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

I mean, meeting anywhere. But you do want to meet with a story. And these days, more and more people want certainty before they even have chemistry.

[A]

That's so big. They want certainty before they have chemistry. You're right.

[C]

You understand.

[A]

They're like, right. Does he have the job I want? Is he wherever? Whatever.

[C]

They want the story told before the title has even been written.

[A]

Oh, my God, that's so good. Okay, let's talk about betrayal for a second. Someone cheats in a relationship. I know friends who say it's a deal breaker. It's over. I don't care. He could have decided not to, but he made that choice.

[C]

He cheat.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Not always. He.

[A]

I know. I think I blame that, but you're right. Okay. So how is infidelity. Is it fatal to a relationship?

[C]

For some couples, infidelity is the death knell, and it basically kills a relationship that often was already dying on the vine. And for others, it is an alarm system that jolts you out of your complacency and your laziness and your power inequities and your abusive behaviors and makes you suddenly realize that you stand to lose a ton of. So it goes in both directions.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

And I also think your individual Stories are a part of this, but also the culture at large. You know, what does culture say about this? For most of history, infidelity was basically man's privilege. And in many places, it still is. And it was not the end of the relationship because it was her job to make the family stay together. So things have shifted tremendously. When marriages are not about love, infidelities are often love stories. When marriages are about love, infidelities become the worst betrayal. You know, it is a violation of trust. It puts your interest ahead of the other person. There are a ton of different kinds of infidelities, and betrayal is not just about infidelity. You may have sexual betrayals, but you may have financial. You may have family secrets. You may have addictions. Betrayal looms very large in the history of relationships and families, actually.

[A]

And it is reparable with therapy, with talking, with understanding.

[C]

A lot of things. A lot of things. I mean, look, they all need a few things in common, all betrayals. They first and foremost need acknowledgement. If you don't acknowledge, be it a political betrayal, a historical betrayal, an intergenerational betrayal, or a romantic betrayal, that needs to be acknowledged that this even happened. Otherwise, you're like in two completely separate realities. And you say, and the other person is still in denial or in minimizing or in blaming you for why it happened. All of those machinations, okay, then there needs to be remorse and guilt, a sense of conscience about how much it hurt the other person, what it did to the other person. Even though you may have reasons for why you did that, there is what it meant to you and what it did to the other. That is constantly. The third one is you have to really prove that you care about the repair. You own the rupture, and now you care about the repair in all betrayals and that you are taking responsibility for that. So in the case of infidelity, it is not uncommon that the hurt person will have questions and questions all the time. And you will say, I've already answered that. I've already answered that. What is for you, the past is often for the other person, the imminent presence. And they are just getting used to what just happened. And the rug has been pulled from under them and their brain is fractured and they need to put the pieces back together. And they're gonna ask you the same question over and over again. Not cause they're annoying, but because they're trying to make some sense out of this total chaos that you need to and be kind and generous about that. And if you can even ask them is there something you need to know versus hoping that they won't ask anything.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Every time you're the one initiating the conversation, they are more likely to say no, it's okay than you trying to hope. Oh, can I have a day without this?

[A]

Yes. Why am.

[C]

Why are we talking another three hours?

[A]

All right, more ahead with Esther Perel. Stay with us. I love my phone but not my carrier. What do I do?

[B]

Well, there are 250 reasons to join T Mobile.

[A]

Like what?

[B]

You can keep your phone and your number and T Mobile helps pay it off up to $800 per line.

[C]

So I wouldn't have to buy a new phone?

[B]

Yep. Plus your plan price stays the same for 5 years on experience plans. Nice. Find your reason@t mobile.com

[A]

via virtual prepaid guard card typically takes 15 days rebate submission price, guarantee on talk text and 5G data exclusions like taxes and fees apply.

[B]

Struggling with bloat or indigestion? You're not alone. Two out of three Americans suffer from poor gut health. I'm Tina Anderson, co founder of Just Thrive Probiotic. As a mom of three, when no probiotics solved my family's tummy troubles, I created my own. Just Thrive Probiotic is the only probiotic that arrives 100% alive in your gut, supporting five star digestion, immunity and better sleep. We even have a formula for pet use code serious for 20% [e-mail] serious I'm Hannah. I've lost 75 pounds in 20 months with GLP1s diet and exercise on roe. I've gone from struggling to run a mile to running farther every day. You can Access FDA approved GLP1s online, get the support you need to reach your weight loss goals. Go to Ro Co Weight to see if you qualify. I'm a paid row partner, 20% average weight loss in one year and non diagnostic diabetics with obesity or overweight with a weight related medical condition versus 3.1% in placebo arm Rx only. To stay informed about serious side effects, go to Ro Co Safety.

[A]

I am so sad that we have to wrap up this conversation, but I do want to ask you.

[C]

This has gone by so fast.

[A]

So awesome. It's so awesome. You believe in love obviously, right?

[C]

I do.

[A]

What about people who wonder, is it too late for love? Did I miss, you know, the window or I'm at this stage in my life where I have a lot of blessings.

[C]

It's interesting because mating in Captivity, which is 20 now is written for romantic couples or for people who seek romantic love. I then thought, I do believe in love, But I need to make clear that the concept I'm talking about is much broader. I think friendships are extremely important in people's lives. Mentorship, partnership, creative engagements with others. There's a ton of other relationships that we need in order to exist and in order for our romantic relationships to thrive. One of the biggest challenges of romantic love is that we have basically enlisted one person to give us what an entire community used to provide. And that has to change, especially today. We crumble under the expectations of everything we want from one person. So I think love is available to us all, and not everyone wants it. In the romantic version. For many people, their friendships is what nurtures them and accompanies them through multiple marriages, for that matter, or committed relationships. I think that you never know, and that is the beauty of today, is that it used to be if you didn't catch it at the first wave, you just never did. It's not true. You know, I have a dear friend who never married, never had a child, met a boyfriend in her late 50s, and now is a grandmother through his children. So she may not have been a mother, but she's a wonderful grandmother. There is a flexibility today in the way we can catch the train, so to speak, you know, go on the love train that I think is really unique for our times. We are redefining family. We are redefining what is a couple, and we are redefining what is the circle of care.

[A]

And let me just wrap up with one question that we ask everybody here. This podcast is called Making Space. So if you had a full day, Esther, that was just for you. Not one thing on the calendar. You woke up when you wanted, you went to sleep when you wanted, and your day was filled with only what you wanted, how would you spend that day? When would you wake up?

[C]

What would you do? I have many days like this, but the essence of a day like that is no planning and no place to get to on time. So it's the abolition of structure. That's the first thing. I would start my day with a good hour and a half of yoga. I may or may not continue with some other gym stuff. If I'm in the, you know, all with a friend, none of them alone, that is probably the big thing. Then I may just go and take a walk and stroll, go to the market, and just let myself be seduced by the smells and the tastes and the touches of the different things. I see it's very sensory. It's not much in my head. And then it's about hopping. Where does the wind blow that I can just be taken? Oh, I go to this whatever. Sometimes on the weekends, it's galleries or if it's in the. If I'm out of town, it's hiking. Swimming in the lake is a big one. As the summer approaches, a good day is a day where I'm physically exhausted at the end.

[A]

That's good.

[C]

Not mentally exhausted, which is often the case, but physically where I feel like, have really, like, pushed. It's that.

[A]

Esther. That was a beautiful, enlightening conversation. Thank you.

[C]

Thank you so much.

[A]

This episode of Making Space is produced by Alyssa Aquino and Briana Steinhilber, along with Kate Saunders. Sound design and mix is Joe Plord. Ashley Domagola is our production manager. Sadie Bass is our supervising producer. Our head of audio production is Jessica Fence. Ariana Davis. Santana is our executive editor. I'm Hoda Kotb and this has been Making Space, a production of the Today Show. We'll see you next week.

[B]

You found your person. Now let's plan the party. Shop Etsy for special wedding planning pieces like custom stationery and handmade linens because your wedding day is special and everything about it should be too.