Rachel Platten on Finding Light in the Darkness (September 2024)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Making Space with Hoda Kotb

Episode: Rachel Platten on Finding Light in the Darkness
Date: June 3, 2026

---

Overview

In this heartfelt and honest episode, Hoda Kotb sits down with singer-songwriter Rachel Platten, best known for her empowering hit “Fight Song.” The conversation delves into Rachel’s personal journey through depression, anxiety, postpartum struggles, and people-pleasing, as well as her growth into motherhood and self-acceptance. Together, they explore the nature of resilience, the evolution of self-worth, and the ongoing work of making space for joy, authenticity, and healing.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rachel’s New Musical Chapter and Self-Acceptance

• Rachel describes her transformation:

  • Turning 40, motherhood, and experiencing postpartum depression shifted her sense of self.
  • She now feels more grounded and confident:

    "I know who I am now. And what your opinion is of me doesn't matter to me as much as what I believe of myself and how I love myself." (03:16, Rachel)

• Writing as future medicine:

  • Rachel reflects on writing empowering lyrics before fully embodying them:

    "Sometimes I write my medicine that I'll need in the future... I give myself the words that I need and in writing it, I'm almost willing myself to be where I want to be." (04:32, Rachel)

• Creative process story:

  • Rachel remembers struggling with the lyric “like a small boat on the ocean” and her eureka moment by the Hudson River:

    "I'd walk up and down and I'd look at the Hudson...and finally it clicked one day. Ocean. And everything rhymes with ocean." (05:20, Rachel)

---

2. Childhood, Role Models, and Early Pleasing

• Childhood recollections:

  • Rachel paints a vivid picture of her childhood bedroom, including Cabbage Patch kids and New Kids on the Block posters hidden in the closet due to her mom’s decor preferences. (06:23-07:03)

• Female role models:

  • Rachel’s grandmother, Millie Platten, was a pioneering journalist in the 1930s-40s and taught her to "work hard, but play hard." (07:34-08:50)
  • Her mother also served as a model of tenacity and self-betterment.

• People-pleasing roots:

  • Rachel admits she was a "goodest," always striving for approval and love (09:28, Rachel), a trait she and Hoda both relate to as it led to over-pleasing and, later, personal resentment.

---

3. Breaking Free from People-Pleasing

• Rock bottom & breakthrough:

  • Rachel describes hitting a personal low lying on her studio floor, crying out to God, and realizing she couldn't continue living to please others:

    "It took therapy and work and like all the things that we have to do. But that was the turning point..." (12:14, Rachel)

  • She channels these feelings into songs like “Set Me Free,” writing lyrics years before she could actually own their meaning:

    "I put on a suit that day that I wrote that song of this Rachel that felt that way, that didn't really care anymore..." (11:24, Rachel)

• Faith and healing practices:

  • Rachel describes a spiritual awakening fueled by therapy, EMDR, chronic pain work, and rekindled faith:

    "All of it brought me finally home to myself and made me understand that I am certainly not alone. I am so deeply loved." (14:02, Rachel)

• Learning surrender:

  • Gaining perspective that she is just a "speck" in the grand scheme helped her let go of control and lean into trust and vulnerability:

    "What if I go with the flow a little more? What if I trust a little bit more and do my best? Certainly do my best, right?" (14:31-14:49, Rachel)

---

4. Motherhood, Childhood Conditioning, and Emotional Tools

• Passing on emotional health:

  • Rachel shares how she tries to model emotional freedom for her daughters, encouraging the safe expression of big feelings through screaming, drawing, or retreating:

    "I do a lot of trying to allow them to understand that all of their feelings are okay as long as they're not endangering themselves or anyone else." (20:57, Rachel)
    "Get the mat out. Get it out." (21:44, Rachel)

• Balancing modern and traditional parenting:

  • Both discuss the challenge of raising children to be expressive but not entitled, agreeing that the sweet spot lies within “gentle parenting with boundaries” (24:08, Hoda & Rachel).

---

5. Partnership and Work-Life Balance

• Working with her husband:

  • Rachel shares she and her husband, Kevin, now run her music label together, navigating control issues and learning to compartmentalize work and personal life:

    "We walk outside our house...and then we walk back in...say goodbye, work, Kev. Goodbye, work, Rach. And then we come back in. Hi, baby. How was your day?" (26:28-27:01, Rachel)

• Disciplinarian roles:

  • Kevin is stricter with their children, but both are learning balance in parenting together. (27:09, Rachel)

---

6. The Universality of Pain, Songwriting, and Anxiety

• Music as shared experience:

  • Rachel’s newest album reflects raw journal entries and is resonating with people of all ages, particularly younger listeners grappling with anxiety and depression:

    "There are a lot of young kids and teenagers...thank God for bad thoughts. Your song about a panic attack. Because I'm 13 and I'm having panic attacks, and that is helping me." (28:51, Rachel)

• Personal struggles and chronic pain:

  • Rachel candidly discusses experiencing panic attacks for the first time after childbirth and chronic back pain, learning to honor her body and set boundaries even on stage:

    "As I'm about to sing [a lyric], I'm buckled over, in pain with this horrendous back spasm that I couldn't ignore...it did take courage and bravery to calm myself down, put a hand on my heart. And I did say to the audience, I need a second..." (31:09-32:55, Rachel)

---

7. Making Space for Replenishment

• Self-renewal practices:
  • Rachel shares how nature, journaling, prayer, and visualizing herself “swaddled in God’s arms” are crucial to her ability to recharge, especially as a mother and creator:

    "I go to nature. I go to the mountain or I go to the ocean. And I just ground and I let go and I reconnect with God..." (35:33, Rachel)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I think what I've found now after writing this new album is that sometimes I write my medicine that I'll need in the future."
  (04:31, Rachel)

• "You can't please everybody. And it's not gonna work."
  (10:11-10:14, Hoda & Rachel)

• "It's, you know, I know who I am. I don't care who you want me to be. This is the night I set me free."
  (10:26, Rachel - singing lyrics from “Set Me Free”)

• "I am certainly not alone. I am so deeply loved."
  (14:02, Rachel)

• "Gentle parenting without boundaries, you're being locked on."
  (24:08, Rachel)

• "All of the pressures of my 43 year old self just kind of melt away. And I'm just being rocked. And that image will just bring me back home."
  (36:01, Rachel)

---

Important Timestamps

• 03:06—Rachel on her new self and album
• 05:20—Origin story of “Fight Song” lyric
• 09:28—Childhood drive to please
• 12:14—Rock bottom and spiritual breakthrough
• 14:31-14:49—Discovering perspective and surrender
• 20:57—Teaching kids emotional freedom
• 26:28—Rachel and Kevin’s “work to home” transition ritual
• 28:51—Album resonates with younger generation’s mental health struggles
• 31:09—Onstage chronic pain and setting boundaries
• 35:33—Rachel’s self-care and renewal practices

---

Tone & Takeaway

Open, vulnerable, and affirming, this episode captures both Rachel and Hoda’s warmth and candor. Rachel’s journey from striving for external validation to an anchored sense of self is both relatable and uplifting. Listeners are left with practical wisdom for resilience, self-compassion, and making space—for themselves, their emotions, and the relationships that matter.

---

Transcript

[Commercial Narrator]

Question for new parents. When was the last time you ate something that was healthy, delicious, and not just whatever your kid didn't finish? Sprouts Farmer's Market gets it. That's why Sprouts offers a variety of healthy and delicious protein bowls, fresh ready to eat salads, and chef created oven ready meals. You can even grocery shop online and get home delivery. Being busy doesn't mean you can't eat healthy. It just means you have to make it easier to do so. So whether you're a new parent or on any other health journey, it's easier. At Sprouts Farmer's Market, your place works

[Lysol Advertiser]

hard, just like you do. From last night's dinner to everyday messes, you want a clean that actually delivers. Lysol kills 99.9% of viruses and bacterias on surfaces and now leaves behind a fresh lavender scent you'll actually love. Disinfecting, wipes, handles, phones, remotes and everyday surfaces. The all purpose cleaner keeps kitchens and bathrooms in check. And the Power toilet bowl cleaner disinfects the brush and bowl for two in one disinfection. Strong, clean, great smell, no extra effort. Don't just clean Lysol clean.

[Hoda Kotb]

If you've ever run a little further or pushed a little harder while the song Fight Song was playing, you are in great company. For nearly a decade, singer and songwriter Rachel Platten has used her voice to lift people up. Fight Song. It's been an anthem for listeners as they fought through their own battles and inspiring all of us to find strength from within. But despite being known for one of the most empowering songs of all time, Rachel has lived through her own struggles with depression, anxiety and moments of self doubt. Now also a mom and a mental health advocate, Rachel's back with a fresh perspective and new music. Using that bold, beautiful voice in a brand new way, she's marking the next chapter in her life and in her career with her latest album, I Am Rachel Platten. And today we talk about what motivates her to keep getting back up and staying in the fight. Just like Rachel sings, she's still got a lot of fight left in her. I'm Hoda Kotb. Welcome to my podcast, Making Space. First of all, hi. Hi Hoda. Congratulations on the new album.

[Rachel Platten]

Thank you so much.

[Hoda Kotb]

I feel like we're getting into the fall and it's like time to turn pages. Like summer's had its season and now we're turning and I feel like in life we're constantly flipping pages from our kids baby years to their next One. And then all of a sudden you kind of say goodbye to that phase. So for you, I feel like, let's talk musically first. You've turned a page and you're entering kind of different waters. So tell me about this new part of you, this new musical part of you.

[Rachel Platten]

Well, first of all, I love it. I love her. This new me that's kind of emerged. I'm really proud of it. And it feels like a grown up version of me. You know, it's something around, somewhere around turning 40, having kids, going through what I went through, which I've talked really publicly about, and postpartum depression, emerging from that and finding my light and my strength again has kind of left me with this feeling of man, I know who I am now. And what your opinion is of me doesn't matter to me as much as what I believe of myself and how I love myself. And I think that is a good way to sum up the whole era and chapter of where I'm at now musically and just my soul right now.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's so funny because obviously the song, Fight Song became an anthem for so many people. And on the surface of it, when you. I thought before meeting you initially, I was like, she has found it. She's got it all together. She's on her way. When you write a song like that, it's like, yes, she's a. But who were you?

[Rachel Platten]

That's funny back then. It's just so funny. Cause I thought so too. Yeah, I was a version of that. You know, the words were true, the lyrics were certainly true because I wrote them in my heart. But I think what I've found now after writing this new album is that sometimes I write my medicine that I'll need in the future.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's interesting.

[Rachel Platten]

So it's almost like I try on a self that I want to really be. I give myself the words that I need and in writing it, I'm almost willing myself to be where I want to be, if that makes sense.

[Hoda Kotb]

So, like, to grow into that version

[Rachel Platten]

is a perfect way to say it, by the way.

[Hoda Kotb]

I love that so much. I loved. I think I remember when I first interviewed you way back in the day and you said you're writing Fight Song and you couldn't quite get the line. It took forever.

[Rachel Platten]

Forever.

[Hoda Kotb]

But then there was like sort of an epiphany that sort of made it click all together. Yeah, it was like a small boat.

[Rachel Platten]

Oh, on the Hudson.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes.

[Rachel Platten]

I kept saying. Cause I was looking at the Hudson, writing it. I'd walk up and down the Central Parkway. Wait, no, not Central. The west side Highway.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, west side Highway.

[Rachel Platten]

Sorry. God, you can tell that I haven't been in New York. I miss New York so much, by the way. Oh my God. Yeah. I'd walk up and down and I'd look at the Hudson. And I kept saying, like a small boat on the Hudson, but nothing rhymed with Hudson I wanted to see. And finally it clicked one day. Ocean. And everything rhymes with ocean motion, by the way.

[Hoda Kotb]

Brilliant. That was so brilliant. Let's go back. Back. Because some people, when they have a great hit song and a great follow up album, everyone thinks, well, that must have come easy. But when you were a little girl, way back in the day. Well, first do this for me. I love this question. Cause it always kind of gives me an excuse.

[Rachel Platten]

I love you, by the way. You are like the best interviewer already, I feel in such capable hands. So.

[Hoda Kotb]

Well, I always think about this. So. Okay, so close your eyes.

[Rachel Platten]

Okay.

[Hoda Kotb]

And imagine the bedroom where you grew up. Okay. You're standing in the middle of it. You are a little kid. You have shelves and things on them. There might be a poster on the wall. There might be sheets or pillowcases, whatever it is. So open your eyes and describe what your childhood room looks like.

[Rachel Platten]

There is wallpaper with pink flowers with a little green stem. There's a small twin bed with a brass bed frame and it has a pink comforter. There are shelves with my little bank on it. My little pink bank that my parents would give me like 50 cents a week or whatever it was. My piggy bank. Yeah, a bank. Just a gigantic New York City bank.

[Hoda Kotb]

Just a city bank.

[Rachel Platten]

Yeah. You know, I was a really lucky kid. There's a piggy bank on my shelf. And there's Cabbage Patch kids. It was 80s. There's new kids on the Block posters.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, New Kids on the Block.

[Rachel Platten]

My mom would only let them put

[Commercial Narrator]

them in the closet.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, really?

[Rachel Platten]

So the closet was just like covered in posts.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wait, wait, wait. So on the wall, she was like, sweetie, we want our flowers with the stems.

[Rachel Platten]

Totally.

[Hoda Kotb]

Every in the closet. You do you.

[Rachel Platten]

Yep.

[Hoda Kotb]

So New Kids on the Block, was that your band at the time or you like.

[Rachel Platten]

Isn't that some of embarrassing? I mean. No, it's not. They're awesome. But of course, sorry. New Kids on the Block.

[Hoda Kotb]

Of course.

[Rachel Platten]

Like, they're definitely listening to this.

[Hoda Kotb]

Of course.

[Rachel Platten]

No, I think it was New Kids on the Block and like Paula Abdul and Janet Jackson. Madonna.

[Hoda Kotb]

So a lot of women. Power too.

[Rachel Platten]

A lot of Women. Cyndi Lauper? Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, really?

[Rachel Platten]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

So who were your kind of female role models growing up?

[Rachel Platten]

Let me think. I mean, besides my grandmother, who was my best friend and she. Well, yeah, I mean, my grandmother, she has passed away, but her name was Millie Platten and she was a reporter for the Boston Globe when it was pretty unheard of for a woman. This was in like 1930s, 1940s.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow.

[Rachel Platten]

Yeah. Not unheard of for a woman to be a reporter, but it wasn't very common.

[Hoda Kotb]

No, it wasn't at all.

[Rachel Platten]

I remember she one time described meeting JFK in an elevator and, like, quickly asking him some questions and getting the scoop. But she was amazing. And her dad was dying of Parkinson's when she was only 15 and his hands were shaking and so she had to type out his stories for him and eventually took over his work. Cause I. He was working for the Boston Globe, so. How cool that you.

[Hoda Kotb]

That you also got to know her. What did she teach you? Like, she.

[Rachel Platten]

Her whole thing was always like, just take it easy, honey. You know, she wasn't like, she saw me, she really knew me and she knew how hard I work just because who I am, it's just this. I have this grit and this fire in me. And so she always wanted to kind of dial up and understand the opposite. She was like, work hard, but play hard and relax. She would say, work hard, but play hard. She had a thick Boston accent, like a legendary Boston accent.

[Hoda Kotb]

Did you listen to the Play hard?

[Rachel Platten]

She helped. She would take me to the mall, take me and my cousins.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Rachel Platten]

She basically co. Raised us along with my mom and dad. And my mom was in graduate school and working as a therapist. And my mother's incredible too. And also a role model of mine because she decided to go back to get her degree when I was in elementary school. And I have these, like, tenacious women around me, I was gonna say. Right. Who just overcame circumstances and claimed life for themselves.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow. Yeah, I love that. So you said that you were a hard worker since when you were little. Why do you think that? Like, what kinds of things? You were just like the kid who wanted to be.

[Rachel Platten]

Just was a do gooder. Like, I was a goodest, you know, like, not, you know, perfectionist. Goodest. Like, I just wanted to be good. I wanted to be and I wanted to do well and I wanted to get a gold star and I just desperately wanted to. Yeah. Be approved of and be loved and interesting. Be accepted.

[Hoda Kotb]

Be accepted. Yeah.

[Rachel Platten]

And impress and shine.

[Hoda Kotb]

I think a lot of kids have that thing And I remember I have that too. And that led me later in life to something that I didn't want to be.

[Rachel Platten]

No, me too.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's like, you kind of want to be a pleaser. Like, do they like me? Is he okay? Is he mad? Did I do that? Is she mad? I didn't mean it. And it took a long time to realize, like, pleasing every single person in the room.

[Rachel Platten]

You can't do it.

[Hoda Kotb]

Ain't gonna work.

[Rachel Platten]

It's not gonna work.

[Hoda Kotb]

So when did you decide? Or have you yet decided? Like, I'm done pleasing. I just wanna be me who God intended. Like, me.

[Rachel Platten]

Yeah, absolutely. I have gotten there.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah. Good.

[Rachel Platten]

But through a lot of pain and through a lot of sacrifice of, like, giving myself away and my own needs away to the point where I was broken. And I have a song about it that I just sang on your show called Set Me Free. And the lyrics are, I'm done with people pleasing, playing small. Love me as I am or don't love me at all. I don't really care what you say, what you think about me. And it's, you know, I know who I am. I don't care who you want me to be. This is the night I set me free. And it's.

[Hoda Kotb]

I have chills from the clerics. I have hair. Look at them standing up.

[Rachel Platten]

I forgot a line, too. It's almost lost my mind trying to make everybody happy.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, my God.

[Commercial Narrator]

That is so.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's it. That's a nutshell.

[Rachel Platten]

That's it.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Rachel Platten]

And I did. I literally did.

[Hoda Kotb]

How did you, like, tell me the process. Was there a process or did you just.

[Rachel Platten]

How I got there.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah. Or did you just decide like that?

[Commercial Narrator]

No.

[Rachel Platten]

Well, first of all, it's so funny because I wrote that song again, like, fight song. And like all my songs, I wrote it three or four years before I actually embodied it, which is wild to me.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, that is wild.

[Rachel Platten]

I was like. I put on a suit that day that I wrote that song of this Rachel that felt that way, that didn't really care anymore. And then yet it was almost like I sang it, but then with parentheses, she said, caring deeply. And then when I sang it on tv, I really, actually believed it. I felt it, and I earned it.

[Hoda Kotb]

Was there anything that you had to do to change? Because wanting to change is one thing and wishing it. And almost like I've been for many years, like a preten. Like, I'm good, I did it same. But until you really dig in there. I mean, your mom's a therapist. She must have kind of helped guide you a little bit along that route.

[Rachel Platten]

My dad is actually also got a doctorate in psychology, and, you know, he went into Industrial Organizational Psych, but he worked at McLean Hospital. So I have two. I have therapy coming at me from all angles.

[Hoda Kotb]

You know, so did they.

[Rachel Platten]

But no, like, they did. And I had, like, the. What's it called? The resources around me. But often when you do, sometimes you think that you're so clever and crafty and would know if you're depressed or would know, you know, Certainly my parents would tell me. It really wasn't until I had a moment of lying on my studio floor, face down, sobbing, crying out to God, where are you? Are you here? I'm lost. I don't think that there's anyone listening. I'm so scared. I'm so alone. And I can't take it anymore. I can't take one more ounce of pain. And it wasn't until that moment until. And then it took therapy and work and, like, all the things that we have to do. But that was the turning point, because in that moment, my song Mercy came to me, and that's on my new record. It came to me all at once, like, in 20 minutes or 30 minutes. And as I was sobbing out this pain, this guttural cry out to God, like the oldest thing in time, a human crying out to their Creator, where are you? Am I alone? It brought this absolutely beautiful music, this, like, joyful, reverent music. And almost as an answer, wow. And from that moment, I knew I wasn't alone here. There was something else. And I developed my relationship with God and Faith and throughout the rest of the album and, like, throughout the next couple years, and also did intense therapy, intense work. EMDR and I had chronic pain, so I had to see a chronic pain specialist and did work with a devotee of John Sarno's work, his protege. And, like, I did all the things.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah, all the things, yes.

[Rachel Platten]

And Faith. And all of it brought me finally home to myself and made me understand that I am certainly not alone. I am so deeply loved.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wow.

[Rachel Platten]

And not only that, but I am quite small in the grand scheme of things, and it really doesn't matter that much. And that feels really good.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's a funny perspective. Cause it's like, right, first you want to make sure that you are good, and then you realize. And after all of that, come on. I'm just a speck.

[Rachel Platten]

I'm just a speck. And I'm not doing all this as much as my control freak self wanted to think that I'm the one manipulating and getting me into the rooms that I wanna be in and all convincing people. I just kind of started to realize, man, what if I go with the flow a little more? What if I trust a little bit more and do my best? Certainly do my best, right?

[Hoda Kotb]

But trust is trust.

[Rachel Platten]

But have faith and kind of surrender and be like, I'm gonna do my best and show up with as much peace and joy and faith in myself and as honest as I can. Yes, as vulnerable as I can. And then whatever's gonna happen's gonna More

[Hoda Kotb]

with Rachel Platten when we come back.

[Commercial Narrator]

Early birds Always rise to the occasion for summer vacation planning because early gets you closer to the action. So don't be late. Book your next vacation early on VRBO and save over $120. Rise and shine. Average savings $141 select homes only Wayfair

is your one stop shop for giving your outdoor space a serious upgrade. Whether you're looking for outdoor grills, patio lighting, rugs or all of the above, Wayfair has what you need to make your outdoor space feel like you. And one of the best parts, installation and assembly services, are available because we all know outdoor furniture can be heavy and intimidating to put together. Plus, with over 20 million five star reviews, you can hear from real customers before you buy. And don't forget to shop. Wayfair verified your shortcut to the good stuff. Their product specialists hand vet items, checking quality, functionality, features and even how long things take to build. Haven't shopped at Wayfair before? Now's the time to start. Patio season is here and these deals won't last. Head to Wayfair.com outdoor right now to get your outdoor space ready for way less. That's W A Y F A I R.com Wayfair every style, every home.

[Hoda Kotb]

USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With usaa, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a'@usaa.com bundle restrictions apply. What brought you to that painful spot that kind of sparked the turnaround? What was it?

[Rachel Platten]

Well, certainly it was hormones because I was really in the depths and the throes of postpartum depression. So it was chemical in my body. But it was, I mean, from an emotional standpoint, I think it was years of what we talked about.

[Hoda Kotb]

Pleasing.

[Rachel Platten]

Pleasing.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah. Putting like a circle in a square,

[Rachel Platten]

saying sorry all the Time. Explanation points after every sentence in a text asking permission for everything. For my very existence. And out of that came so much rage.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes.

[Rachel Platten]

I don't know if you've ever felt that or if anyone listening has ever felt that. This, like, rage. Like, why have I spent my life apologizing for who I am? I can cry thinking about it. Enough.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's too much.

[Rachel Platten]

It's too much.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's too much. Yeah. Because. Right. To apologize for being the person who God created. Basically saying, sorry, I'm in the way.

[Commercial Narrator]

That's me.

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm doing me.

[Rachel Platten]

I have a good heart. I'm kind to my core. It's gonna come out. I don't need to overly convince everyone all the time that I'm good or that I'm nice or that to make them enough. I'm enough. And I think I heard a really beautiful podcast one time. Describe. I think it was Brene Brown talking to Elizabeth Gilbert. Maybe.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Rachel Platten]

I can't quite remember but. And they said. Or Brene said. Or someone said, like, I grew up in a household that was a little bit explosive. And so what I learned was to be hyper vigilant about emotions around me. Cause I always was on the lookout, like, well, what could happen? Something's gonna happen. Yeah. My parents were young and they didn't have money and they were doing their best and they were trying their hardest. But they're anxious people. And I am too. I run anxious. And like. So there was explosive screaming and door slamming before they worked it out and learned how to heal. And like, that was a scary thing for a little kid to grow up in.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Rachel Platten]

And I had to learn to constantly monitor everyone around me. Like, oh my God, what's going to lead to something not safe for me?

[Hoda Kotb]

Right.

[Rachel Platten]

And so I think that's what happened. As I grew. That was my M.O. was like constantly monitoring around me. Are they happy with me and are they not? Because I might be in danger.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right. I don't want to be. Yeah. You're scared.

[Rachel Platten]

I'm scared. It might in my sweet little nervous system. Can't understand that the threat of someone not liking me is different than the threat of being like in danger and a tiger eating me.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Rachel Platten]

Right.

[Commercial Narrator]

Right.

[Hoda Kotb]

It's flight. It's.

[Rachel Platten]

Whatever it is.

[Adobe Firefly Advertiser]

It's like.

[Rachel Platten]

So I'm like, oh my God. So let me please. So that I'm safe.

[Hoda Kotb]

And I think that's so interesting about postpartum. Cause I interviewed Brooke Shields about it years ago, who's been. Thank God that she's Been through it, right. And just talked about it. Because she kept. She was reminding me. It's like you were supposed to be at the most joyful time and yet here's your brain going down this other route. And certain things like that are so chemical.

[Rachel Platten]

Ye.

[Hoda Kotb]

And then there are the pleasing part, which is another piece that you've gotta kinda correct. And I feel like you have so many tools like right now in your toolkit. That's exactly how I feel too. You got it. And you got two little girls and I know all you wanna do is help them grow into beautiful adults. But what are you hoping that they will be? Cause I sometimes notice pleasing in my 7 year old and I am constantly on it because. And I don't wanna be on it. Cause then it's like, how do you

[Rachel Platten]

do you correct it? Like what do.

[Hoda Kotb]

If she's like. She said to me, oh, my fingernails hurt. Cause she got her first manicure and it was hurting her, but she didn't say anything. And I said, honey, why didn't you say something? Well, I didn't wanna say anything. Cause I mean she was doing it. I said, no, no. I said, listen, I said if something doesn't feel comfortable or right for you, you can say. It's okay to say hi, thank you so much for what you're doing. That doesn't feel good for me. It's okay to say that. But I think I worry because anyone who's a pleaser will have a lot of issues going forward. So we work on it with most things. Sometimes I say, you could say if someone offers you food who you know, I love you, I just don't love liver. You know, like there are ways as a little kid that you can do it and as an adult. But it's tricky. And I think raising, like, how do you go about raising your girls? Like, what's your.

[Rachel Platten]

It's a great question. Well, I do a lot of what I think I needed and what I didn't get. I think we probably all do that we try to correct. And like, who knows if time will tell. Maybe I overcorrect, I don't know. But I do a lot of trying to allow them to understand that all of their feelings are okay as long as they're not endangering themselves or anyone else. And I'm constantly kind of trying to help them understand. Hey, you can be really sad about that right now. That's really hard what just happened. And you don't have to shut it down. Cause that was something that I did A lot. And so I'm really trying to help them have emotional freedom and tools, you know, you want to go into your room and feel your feelings for a little bit. Do you want to go punch a pillow in your room? Hey, do you want to go, like, stomp and cry or. I help them scream sometimes. Like, go into your room and scream as loud as you can. Get the mat out. Get it out.

[Hoda Kotb]

I agree with that.

[Rachel Platten]

Cuz I locked it down.

[Hoda Kotb]

Me too.

[Rachel Platten]

And I did not know that it was okay. And that was years that built up, I think, to this breakdown point of finally realizing, well, this rage has got to come out somehow, right?

[Hoda Kotb]

You can't carry it.

[Rachel Platten]

And as women and as little girls, what could we, like, come on. We are taught to stuff that down. That is not what a little girl should do or feel. It's not okay. There's no, like, aggressive expression that is allowed rather than sports, you know, like, there's. And girls don't even really wrestle or have the physicality. The physicality, you know, and they should be allowed to because we're humans, we're human beings and that stuff is in our subconscious. So I try to allow them to kind of teach them how to get out or even draw it out, like write out, like, scribble as dark as you can.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's smart. I think all those things are good. And I've been trying to do something similar. And I also struggle with. Although we were raised differently than they are, it's like, keep it in, get in line, follow your, be quiet, all that stuff. Although those things made it hard in childhood, there's a part of me that also thinks and I try to balance. It is like my adulthood, I think, was really easy because I could, like,

[Rachel Platten]

you know, stuff it down and be appropriate.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right. And this is the work environment. And you just can't. You can't be 100%. So I'm noticing, like, another generation is much more like, entitled. Don't feel good about this. It's like, yeah, yeah, but you still have to do it, girl. I know.

[Rachel Platten]

Thank you. You're right.

[Hoda Kotb]

I'm trying to find. Me too. I'm trying to find a balance in between. Because I don't want them to just be entitled assholes.

[Rachel Platten]

Excuse me, like, who are just like. My mom said, I could feel my anger, so I'm gonna feel my anger.

[Hoda Kotb]

So I'm. Right now.

[Rachel Platten]

Right now. I mean, I'm. I think you're right. And I do try to. I do try to, like, say, like, hey, you're Feeling really mad right now. Do you want to go into your own space, into the bathroom, into your room, and close the door so that you're not expressing it in front of a friend? That's kind of like. But you're right. Like, I did learn to bottle it up, and that is a skill. I know. And, like, how do we do.

[Hoda Kotb]

There's probably an in between of what we. The way we were and the way that our kids.

[Rachel Platten]

And I think that my kids. Kids with their overcorrecting mom are gonna have to, you know, figure out their thing. But you're right. It is important. And I have heard that mentioned a couple times, especially with, like, not just me, but how is this gentle parenting thing gonna work out?

[Hoda Kotb]

I know, I know. Wow.

[Rachel Platten]

Boundaries.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yes.

[Rachel Platten]

We have to have solid, and we have to teach solid boundaries.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Rachel Platten]

And I think that gentle parenting without boundaries, you're being locked on. Right, Right. But I.

[Hoda Kotb]

Gentle parenting with boundaries.

[Rachel Platten]

Yeah. Like, boundaries are the new punishment of the 80s, right. Of like, hey, I will not let you touch my body like that. I will remove you from the situation. I will hold your arms and hold you down. I will remove you from the situation because you're not safe right now.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right. And that's another thing that they're learning. I think that's good, girl. I don't know.

[Rachel Platten]

I don't know what I'm doing. I'm trying.

[Hoda Kotb]

Tell me about your relationship with your husband. Tell me about that part of your life.

[Rachel Platten]

I mean, it is probably in the best place that it's been. We have been together for almost. How long? Almost 16 years. 17 years, I think. 17 years. He's my best friend. He's incredible. He has a law degree and a business degree. He's brilliant. And he now runs my label, our label. And we're working together, and we're doing this together for the first time.

[Hoda Kotb]

How is that working with your money?

[Rachel Platten]

Well, if you'd asked me a year ago, been, like, screaming and tearing my hair out. It was so hard at first for both of us. We just had a lot of venting, a lot of talks with our therapists to help. But we've gotten to such a good place with it. I think we had to understand how to trust each other.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's good. Yeah.

[Rachel Platten]

And how to allow each other to have our strengths. And, like, I don't know. I kind of had to more than that for me. I had to understand how to not be such a control freak, I think, because here I am with my partner who matters, whose opinions matter. Just as much as mine, who is working just as hard as I am, who loves me so much. And I don't wanna misinterpret his frustrations or his things as him, you know, trying to control anything. He's just. I don't know. I don't know if I'm saying it that elegantly. I just think that, like, we've found a really good rhythm. I know something that we do. What? That's awesome.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay.

[Rachel Platten]

Okay. So we were taking work into our life. You know, we were, like, taking it onto the couc, watching tv, and that wasn't working. And it was really unhealthy. And, like, we'd be venting about our day, but it would just carry on because how do you shut it off? How do you shut down? And we realized that we needed, like, a little system to say goodbye to Rachel and Kevin work selves.

[Hoda Kotb]

Okay.

[Rachel Platten]

And enter back in Rachel and Kevin married selves. Okay. So we don't worry. Kevin, if you're listening, I am not gonna sing her the song. We walk outside of our house. We stand on the grass. We kind of like, you know, just shake it out. I make us shake it out. He barely. He rolls his eyes, but I like bleh. And then we walk back in and we sing a little song.

[Hoda Kotb]

Wait, you sing it together?

[Rachel Platten]

No, no, I can't. Cause he'll die. And then we hug and we say hello as if we're just getting back from our day. And I say, hi, Kev, how are you? Like, we say, goodbye, work, Kev. Goodbye, work, Rach. And then we come back in. Hi, baby. How was your day?

[Hoda Kotb]

That's so cute. Oh, my God.

[Rachel Platten]

Yeah, we're like, gross. It's very cute.

[Hoda Kotb]

So who's the disciplinarian out of you and your husband?

[Rachel Platten]

Oh, definitely him.

[Hoda Kotb]

He is.

[Rachel Platten]

Oh, yeah. He's strict.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah. Is he?

[Rachel Platten]

I think that also is why, for our kids, it works that I'm a little bit more.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah. So he kind of lays down. Yeah.

[Rachel Platten]

Like, he's very. You don't get away with stuff with Kevin, actually. That is such a lie. He'll, like, go to American Girl doll store and Violet just walk. The girls, like, just tool on him. But when it comes down to, like, really crossing a boundary, Kevin's not. Okay.

[Hoda Kotb]

He's not like that.

[Rachel Platten]

No, no, no, no. He won't let that.

[Hoda Kotb]

I think it's interesting that as you go through the different phases of your life where you described as you're writing music that are. That's appropriate. Cause I Feel like this music that's coming out now for women who have complicated and complex feelings. Not simplistic things like crushes and, you know, those things. It's just really speaking to people who are of different ages. So I know you're writing what you feel at the time. Are you thinking about, like, this album should be where I am today, or do you just do whatever spills out of you? You're like, this is coming, and I'm gonna accept it as it is.

[Rachel Platten]

Are you meaning, like, did I write intentionally for knowing that my fans have also.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right. Grown up and we're all in the same, you know?

[Rachel Platten]

No, no, that wasn't intentional. That's just who I am now. And it was so raw what came out of me. The album is so raw and so deeply personal. They're, like, often journal entries. They're right from the pain onto the page. And I think, interestingly enough, I also thought that these songs might only be for people of a certain age or who have been through stuff.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah.

[Rachel Platten]

But fortunately or unfortunately, the younger generation has been through a lot more than I think we understand.

[Hoda Kotb]

Yeah. That's a good point.

[Rachel Platten]

And feel a lot more anxiety and depression and, like, sadness and complicated emotions than we necessarily want to admit that they do. And so there are a lot of young kids and teenagers that have been also reaching out to me through either parents or social media to tell me, like, thank God for bad thoughts. Your song about a panic attack. Because I'm 13 and I'm having panic attacks, and that is helping me. So unfortunately, it isn't just for people who are maybe my age or a little bit younger or older. I think it's universal. I think this is speaking to the human condition right now in the. This world that we're living in where we feel so separate from each other and so alone.

[Hoda Kotb]

When did panic attacks hit you or when did that start?

[Rachel Platten]

When I was struggling with postpartum depression. I never had that experience before. I'd heard close friends describe that, but I think, like, all of us, I was in a little bit of a spiritual bypass of, like, that's not gonna happen to me. I'm good. I know how to, you know. It was also a lot of, like, I think, dangerous spirituality. And I said in quotation marks because it wasn't real faith and understanding that I am loved and I'm enough and I can go directly to my source and have my own answers. It was a lot of looking outside myself to intuitives and who are well meaning.

[Hoda Kotb]

Right.

[Rachel Platten]

But not like, they Were talking to God for me, telling me my own answers. Right.

[Hoda Kotb]

You're like, I have a direct line. Exactly. Thank you. Thank you. So you went there.

[Rachel Platten]

I have a direct line.

[Hoda Kotb]

And so once you got centered there, everything got clearer.

[Rachel Platten]

Yeah, everything got clearer there. Yeah. As it always does. Right.

[Hoda Kotb]

I watched you perform at an Ariana Huffington event where Savannah was.

[Rachel Platten]

Which is Ariana, by the way.

[Hoda Kotb]

And Savannah, that was so incredibly beautiful. Thank you. But there were times where you stopped playing. I think at one of the.

[Rachel Platten]

I was in pain.

[Hoda Kotb]

You were in pain, and you said it and it was real. Like just that particular moment, it hit me and I thought to myself, she's not pushing through and head down and what do they want? You're like, no, no, this is what I need. Now I'm stopping. I'm taking a minute. Hope you guys are okay with that. But this is how it has to be. That took bravery, didn't it?

[Rachel Platten]

Thank you. Yeah, that was a really hard time. That was in January. And I. It's so funny because this newfound confidence and love of myself is new, but it's real. But, yeah, in January, I was still struggling with chronic pain and horrendous back spasms. And what I've learned since is that it was just an expression of my nervous system in Fight or flight and all the MRIs and like physical therapy and stuff and doctors and like, it was well intentioned again. But it just threw me further and further into feeling like there was something wrong with me and I needed to fix it from the end outside in, when really what I needed to do and I think what we all need to do is go inside out. And so, yeah, I was in the middle of a song and actually, so funny. The song is called I know. And I was about to sing this line. Deliver me, deliver me. This pain won't last. This too shall pass. I know. And as I'm about to sing that, I'm buckled over, in pain with this horrendous back spasm that I couldn't ignore. And thank you for giving me credit for being brave. But it wasn't that. I just physically couldn't continue. It was so painful and scary and terrifying that I had to stop. And it was almost like my little body telling me, like, you are not safe. Get out of here. This is not okay. And I did. In that moment, it did take courage and bravery to calm myself down, put a hand on my heart. And I did say to the audience, you're right, I'll own that. I did say to the audience, I'm so sorry. I need a second. I've also been experiencing chronic pain. I haven't talked about that yet because I'm so exhausted. By talking about my depression, I don't want to also talk about this. But that's real.

[Hoda Kotb]

That's part of it.

[Rachel Platten]

Give me a second. And I did. I was able to find the strength to go on and continue the song and continue the concert.

[Hoda Kotb]

More ahead with Rachel Platten. Stay with us.

[Adobe Firefly Advertiser]

Adobe Firefly is the all in one creative studio with AI powered image and video editing for today's creative process. Built for creators of every kind, Firefly helps you generate, edit, and experiment fast because the asks aren't getting smaller, the budgets aren't getting bigger, and the timeline, oh yeah, still tight. With all the best creative AI models in one place, Firefly brings your ideas to life. Unlock a better way to make with Adobe Firefly.

[Commercial Narrator]

Why have we asked our contractor we found on Angie.com to be our kid's legal guardian? Because he took such good care when redoing our basement that we knew we could trust him to care for our kids, all eight of them, should something happen to us.

[Rachel Platten]

Are you my dad now?

[Hoda Kotb]

Uh, no, sorry. I do basements. Connecting homeowners with skilled pros for over 30 years. Angie the one you trust to find the ones you trust. Find pros for all your home [e-mail] traditional home security only alerts you after a break in. And that's too late. Simplisafe is changing that. Stop. This is Simplisafe. Police are on the way. We don't just alert, we stop crime before it starts. Simplisafe plans starting around a dollar a day. Save 50% on your new system with professional monitoring at simplisafe.com sxm or with promo code sxm Outdoor deterrence requires a Simplisafe active guard outdoor protection plan starting at 49.99amonth. Visit simplisafe.com licenses for alarm license information. Tennessee 2012. This podcast is called Making Space. So it's a time where you can clear out part of your day and do that. And I love that you were taking deep breaths before you came into here. I think this I just took one. You just took one. Now I think it's so cool. But if someone gave you a day that was for you and it was to replenish, nourish, revitalize, repot, do whatever the RE's that you needed to do, how would that day play out for you? How do you re energize yourself and slow it down.

[Rachel Platten]

I do them quite a lot lately because as a mom of young kids, I know you understand. And a full time career of a lot of pressure and a lot of expectations. I need them. And I go to nature.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, you do?

[Rachel Platten]

I go to the mountain or I go to the ocean. And I just ground and I let go and I reconnect with God and I pour out any emotions I need to. I'll journal. I'll get out what's in there that's been trapped and I will remember that. I'll imagine myself like. Well, I'll actually physically be in nature. And then I'll imagine myself as like an infant swaddled in God's arms.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, that's beautiful.

[Rachel Platten]

And all of the pressures of my 42. Wait, I'm 43. 43 year old self just kind of melt away. And I'm just being rocked. And that image will just bring me back home.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, wow. That is beautiful.

[Rachel Platten]

It's pretty good.

[Hoda Kotb]

Oh, my gosh. I feel relaxed.

[Commercial Narrator]

Yeah.

[Hoda Kotb]

Rachel Platten, thank you so much for coming to see me today. You're a love. I knew it before.

[Rachel Platten]

That was so fun.

[Hoda Kotb]

Thank you. Making Space with Hoda Kotb is produced by Allison Berger and Alexa Casavecchia along with Kate Saunders. Our associate audio engineer is Juliana Mosarilli. Our audio engineer is Katie Lau. Original music by John Estes. Bryson Barnes is our head of audio production. Missy Dunlop Parsons is our executive producer. Libby Least is the executive vice president of today and Lifestyle.

[Commercial Narrator]

Early birds always rise to the occasion for summer vacation planning because early gets you closer to the action. So don't be late. Book your next vacation early on verbo and save over $120. Rise and shine. Average savings $141. Select homes only.