Suzy Welch on Finding Your Purpose (April 2025)

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Making Space with Hoda Kotb

Episode: Suzy Welch on Finding Your Purpose
Host: Hoda Kotb
Guest: Suzy Welch
Date: May 20, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, Hoda Kotb sits down with Suzy Welch—NYU professor, best-selling author, and renowned entrepreneur—to explore the subject of finding one's purpose in life. Drawing on her rich personal journey and years of research, Suzy shares practical frameworks for self-discovery and explains why clarity around purpose is essential for a meaningful, authentic life. The conversation is sprinkled with humorous and heartfelt anecdotes and actionable advice for listeners at any stage of their own journey.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Suzy Welch’s Unscripted Early Life

• Suzy describes a freewheeling upbringing in a “hippie” household, where structure was lacking and improvisation was a necessity.
  • “My mom was an artist, my dad was an architect. They had like these psychedelic parties… you just sort of like, existed. They were individuals and individualists. And I kind of had to keep on finding my own way.” (03:31, Suzy)
• Early independence and survival skills: getting her first job at 13 and learning to take care of herself.
  • “If you've got parents who are sort of like, we're dropping you at the beach in the morning. Have a good time. We'll see you at six o'clock… You learn self-sufficiency.” (05:04, Suzy)

Jumping into the Unknown & Handling Fear

• Suzy’s first post-college job in journalism was a chance choice, highlighting her willingness to leap before feeling ready.
  • “I never planned my life, okay? Until I stopped and I wanted to paint a self-portrait and figure out which direction to run next.” (03:31, Suzy)
• She faced tough environments (e.g., crime reporting in Miami in 1981), learned from adversity, and dealt with difficult bosses.
  • “I succeeded because I was tenacious. I never stopped working 24/7. But I loved it.” (05:38, Suzy)

The Default Path vs. Deliberate Design

• Suzy introduces her “Three Ds” of life direction: default, deliberation, and design.
  • Default: Reactively moving through life without intentional choice.
  • Deliberation: Gradually making more thoughtful choices.
  • Design: Consciously crafting one’s life around values and goals.
  • “One of the reasons why I can teach it the way I do is I have such a heart for people who have lived their lives in default. I was 100% in default. Then I switched … What about a life by design? That's our choice.” (11:34, Suzy)
• The value in moving beyond default: personal agency and authenticity.

The Four Psychological Barriers to Purpose

• Suzy elaborates on the four psychological barriers to living one’s purpose (the four E’s):
  1. Expediency: Doing what’s easiest.
  2. Events: Life circumstances that derail you.
  3. Economic Security: Choosing based on money over meaning.
  4. Expectations: Societal/cultural/familial pressures.
  • “We drift away from our purpose or we're pulled away from it unless we fight, fight, fight for it.” (16:28, Suzy)

Defining and Discovering Your Purpose

Suzy’s Core Methodology:

• Purpose is at the intersection of three spheres:
  • Values: “The deeply held beliefs, wants and desires that animate your actions and your decisions.” (19:44, Suzy)
    • Only 17% of people can truly define their own.
    • Examples include beholderism (aesthetic importance), agency, family centrism, achievement, money, fun (eudaimonia), etc.
    • “There's 15 core values... I think everybody would be better off finding out where they are in each one of these values and sort of having a values DNA profile.” (19:44, Suzy)
  • Aptitudes: Both cognitive and personality-based strengths.
    • “Aptitudes are two things. There are cognitive wiring... and there's another set of aptitudes and that's our personality.” (21:59, Suzy)
    • Importance of understanding both internal perception and how the world sees you.
    • “The ultimate test is to ask the world how it experiences us.” (23:17, Suzy)
    • Anecdote: Suzy shares her children’s amusing but truthful view of her as “the hurricane” rather than the “eye of the storm.” (24:00, Suzy)
  • Interests: Areas or industries sparking genuine curiosity or excitement.

Process:

• “And at the center of those three spheres, overlapping spheres, lies your purpose.” (18:35, Suzy)

Purpose and Real Life

• Purpose isn’t static—values and aptitudes can evolve over time.
  • “Your values change. I mean, when I was coming out of business school, I had a very, very high value of affluence. Why? Because I was poor... But my values around that have changed because my life has changed.” (30:07, Suzy)
• The importance of authenticity and the agony of living out of alignment.
  • “The arc of life is long and it bends towards authenticity. It has to, because you can't hold your breath that long.” (39:54, Suzy)

Happiness: Outcome, Not a Goal

• Suzy challenges the common focus on “chasing happiness.”
  • “I think happiness is not a goal. I think it's an outcome... If you have a meaningful, productive, connected life, you will be happy.” (31:38, Suzy)
  • Happiness is more sustainable when rooted in purpose, even though setbacks or circumstances can still affect it.

On Parenting, Family, and Differing Values

• Suzy describes her blunt, honest communication style with her children and a philosophy of allowing them to own their values.
  • “I was the mother I was. I never tried to be the mother I wasn't... I always told them the truth.” (33:41, Suzy)
• Navigating differences, as with her daughter’s tattoos:
  • “If your values are not hurting anybody, live your values, then how can I possibly turn to my daughter and say, but don't live your values because I need you to conform to my values?” (34:36, Suzy)
• Family relationships can improve when you understand each other’s aptitudes and values.

The Practical Tools: Courses, Inventories & Upcoming Book

• Suzy recommends using structured inventories and honest feedback to identify values and aptitudes.
• She offers NYU intensives and soon, a book:
  • “It's called Becoming Youg, which is the name of the whole methodology. And it comes out May 5th. And it has almost all of the exercises in it.” (37:15, Suzy)
• Tools and resources are available at suzywelch.com.

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On living by default:
  “I have such a heart for people who have lived their lives in default. I was 100% in default.” (11:34, Suzy)

• On purpose:
  “You know when you're living your purpose, when you feel exquisitely alive.” (17:32, Suzy)

• On authenticity:
  “The arc of life is long and it bends towards authenticity. It has to, because you can't hold your breath that long.” (39:54, Suzy)

• On feedback from her kids:
  “I thought I was the eye of the storm. My kids thought I was the hurricane.” (24:00, Suzy)

• On happiness:
  “I think happiness is not a goal. I think it's an outcome of a meaningful, productive life.” (31:38, Suzy)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:31 – Suzy’s hippie upbringing and early survival skills.
• 05:38 – Crime reporting in Miami; tenacity and lessons from adversity.
• 10:48 – Teaching purposeful living: from default to design.
• 15:43 – The four “E’s” that block purpose.
• 18:19 – Suzy’s Venn diagram: Values, Aptitudes, Interests.
• 19:44 – Defining and naming personal values.
• 23:38 – The value of external feedback; “the hurricane” story.
• 31:38 – Why happiness should not be the end goal.
• 33:41 – Parenting philosophy; honesty and accepting differences.
• 36:06 – The importance of interests in finding purpose.
• 37:15 – Forthcoming book and additional resources.
• 39:54 – On authenticity and living your truth.

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Final Reflections & Takeaways

Suzy Welch emphasizes that purpose is not just an abstract idea but a practical reality that rests on knowing your core values, aptitudes, and interests—and acting accordingly. The journey requires self-honesty, external feedback, and the courage to re-align as you grow. Suzy’s frameworks, stories, and methodology offer a compassionate yet no-nonsense path to greater self-knowledge and fulfillment.

Recommended Next Step:
Explore Suzy Welch’s resources, including her values and aptitudes tools at suzywelch.com, or look for her upcoming book "Becoming Youg" for step-by-step guidance.

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Transcript

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[B]

What should I do with my life? If that is a question you've asked yourself, I'm hopeful my next guest may be able to guide you. Susie Welch is not just an award winning NYU professor, three time best selling author and entrepreneur, she's also one of my go to. Susie is, quite frankly, the one. Susie combines the knowledge and insight she's gathered during her 40 year career as a journalist, professor and seeker and created simple steps to help you and me identify our true purpose. But here's the thing about Susie. While she's Harvard educated, her advice is consumable for everybody. Her warmth and wisdom have made her a mentor and a motivator to so many from students to CEOs. So as you listen to this conversation, I encourage you to not to try to answer every burning question you've ever had about your life, but instead take one baby step closer to honing in on your purpose to open your mind to possibilities and become the you you've always envisioned. I'm excited to dive into the topic myself and I cannot wait for you to join me. I'm Hoda Kotb. Welcome to my podcast Making. Okay, I just want to say as I sit down with you in this moment, Susie Welch, one of my favorite people, that this I feel sort of weird because this is my very first interview since we had the big goodbye and I get to sit with you.

[A]

I love it. I'm honored. I can't believe. I mean, it feels awesome. And the big goodbye was such a sob fest. I had like total withdrawal symptom the next day. I was like, wait, something's wrong.

[B]

You know what's cool though? Here's what I've learned from watching you is like your life has been a series of jumps. Jumping from place to place, jumping from solid ground to ground that was shaky and you weren't sure. Jumping out of a relationship into a relationship, out of a job into a job. And it takes courage to do that.

[A]

Well, sometimes I was pushed. Total. Let's just speak. Sometimes you were pushed.

[B]

Okay, two ways to go.

[A]

But I wanna back it up.

[B]

I just want people to know you. For those who don't, there's a reason that I love you and I've loved you for a long time. But I wanna go back to the beginning when you were just a kid and you were thinking to yourself, you're in grade school, you're in midd, you're in high school. Like, what was the thing that you wanted to do? Or did you have an idea when you were that young?

[A]

First of all, I love being here and I love you, okay? The great irony of the fact that I teach a class called Becoming youg, which is about planning your life, is that I never planned my life, okay? Until I stopped and I wanted to paint a self portrait and figure out which direction to run next, okay? And so I was a person who grew up in a hippie household. You know, my mom was an artist, my dad was an architect. They had like these psychedelic parties. It was the 60s and they just were with hippie people. And no one talked about, like, life, structure, whatever. You just sort of like, existed. They were individuals and individualists. And I kind of had to keep on finding my own way. And I was lucky to get a good education along the way. But my first big job was I was graduating from college at Harvard University. Very lucky to be there. And like, some guys came into the newsroom of the daily newspaper there and said, does anybody want to work in Miami? Because there had been. Who knew there was no Internet. Then there had been a strike at the Miami Herald and all the reporters had been let go and they were trying to fill the newsroom fast. Nobody knew this. Again, no Internet. This was 1981. And I said, oh, I don't have a job, I'll live in Miami. I mean, that was my big career. Planning. I knew I could write. I knew I loved journalism. I knew the people who I really thought were very interesting and exciting were going into journalism. And so I just raised my hand and I went to. You weren't scared?

[B]

Were you scared to go?

[A]

I think I. Yes, I think I was scared of. I must have been.

[B]

You know what's interesting? You said you grew up with like, hippie parents.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That lifestyle taught you something. What did it give you? That lifestyle?

[A]

It taught. Taught me survival skills. Okay. Because if you've got parents who are sort of like, we're dropping you at the beach in the morning. Have a good time. We'll see you at six o'.

[B]

Clock.

[A]

You learn self sufficiency. Like, I knew how to take care of myself. I had a job at 13. I worked at Cumberland Farms. I mean, you learn. First of all, I learned about beautiful things because my parents loved art and they loved music. And I sort of learned about these very sweet things in life that are there for giving us great texture and to open our minds. But I learned to take care of myself. I mean, I was a very self sufficient girl.

[B]

Very then. So that's probably. So that helped you when you were like, okay, okay, Miami's coming.

[A]

Nobody's gonna get the job for me. They showed up, they said there were jobs in Miami. Off I went, and I just went.

[B]

So did you succeed when you got there or what was it like?

[A]

Well, look, this was Miami in 1981. There were two big sets of riots. There was a gigantic boat lift. You couldn't not succeed as a reporter. And there were no reporters. Cause they'd let go of the whole staff. I mean, there were like two reporters remained who didn't get fired. And I succeeded because I was tenacious. I never stopped working 24 7. But I loved it. You know, I was a cop reporter, police reporter. I started the day at the morgue and we would go over the bodies that like, showed up in the Miami R. Okay. That's where my fine arts degree at Harvard got me, Hoda. I went straight from, like, studying Dutch art to going to the morgue. And I just. I met fabulous, fascinating people and I liked Miami. Miami was. You didn't go to Miami beach without, like a bulletproof vest and a police escort. I'm not exaggerating. And you loved it. Yeah, I loved the excitement. I learned this thing about myself very young, that I wanted a big, exciting life. Like, I wasn't. I didn't care about predictability. I didn't care about weekends. I didn't care about not working. I wanted to work all the time. Now, I had no words for this. I had no language for this. I mean, the fact that I went on to invent a language, a vowel was a very straight. It. Like, literally. It's crazy. But I did that because of my life before that, not having these words. I love the excitement, the fun. Covering crime in Miami. You just get a very quick lesson in human nature. Better and worse. You see some really bad stuff. I always say to my kids, I'm so sorry I didn't give you the gift of being a crime reporter in Miami in 1981, because they're not scared enough of the world. But I also saw great people. And so that went along. And then two things happened. I had a bad boss. And a bad boss can wreck your life. And I had a boss who was mean to me. And how so? Well, he was a guy who thought that you broke people down.

[B]

Oh, God.

[A]

And then you build them back up again. And he used to. He wouldn't call me by my first name.

[B]

What did he call you?

[A]

Harvard. He used to just call me by that, loudly, across the newsroom. He wanted me to fail so that

[B]

he could, what, Prove that Harvard wasn't so great?

[A]

Yeah. Or just to, sort of. That's the way he broke reporters. He eventually was fired for it, but not in my tenure. And I had a bad boss. And then at the same time, a funny thing happened, which was I think I got very tired of busting into people's privacy. Which you do a lot as a reporter, especially a crime reporter. And then on top of all of that, I followed a boy. Okay. Really do not recommend. Okay. I did end up marrying him. This was my first husband, Eric. And he was cute. And I met him in high school, and he was up north.

[B]

Wait, so you left your job in Miami? Yeah, to go up there with him. Oh, boy. Wait. For someone who's so driven, career driven, that seems strange.

[A]

Well, love is a powerful thing. Or crush is a powerful thing. He was really cute. And I remember when I got engaged to him, somebody said to me on the street, you know, oh, you got engaged to Eric? All the girls dig Eric. And I thought, uh, oh, is that what it is? I just dig him. I mean, he was an adorable, like, you know, cute athlete. And, I mean, I am very good friends with him now. But we were not supposed to be married. I mean, let's just put it that way, because we married really young. I followed him up there. I got a job in journalism. Again, right away. And we were married. And one day my boss called me into the office. Now, I had a good boss. He called me into the office, and he said, I've been covering crime again. He said, what do you know about business? And I said, absolutely nothing. Nothing. I think there's two words called debt and equity. And I don't know the difference between them.

[B]

It's not my thing.

[A]

And I pointed out to the buildings out in Boston, and I said, see those buildings? I have no idea what's going on in them. And he said, well, look, you're available. The New England Business Business reporter has quit, and we need you to cover business. And I was like, are you kidding me? So you said, yes, I had no choice.

[B]

Oh, you had no choice. So how did you learn?

[A]

Oh, well, I went to my first press conference, and they were all speaking Urdu, and I was like, okay, I am screwed, and I'm gonna fail.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I was so afraid of failing, so I was coming home on the subway, and I thought to myself, well, this is a big problem. I don't know what I'm doing. I was a great crime reporter, and I'm a terrible business reporter. I have two choices here. I can have a baby or go to business school. And I wasn't ready to have a baby, I guess, because I applied to business school and I thought I was in Boston. I thought, what the heck? I'll apply to Harvard Business School. And I got in.

[B]

Okay, this is so crazy.

[A]

It is a crazy story.

[B]

So that was the route that you went to business school?

[A]

Yes. And I am the first person and probably the last person in the history of humanity who went to business school to learn business. Okay. Because most people go to business school to network, to change from investment banking to retail banking. Yeah.

[B]

So you were like, 101, teach me.

[A]

I went there and I was like, I know nothing. And so talk about Lord of the Rings or whatever. Like a great movie where they just. All those people are gathered, and the great Org says, you may now self organize into groups of five for your study groups that will carry you for the first year. And so everybody sort of like, starts looking for the investment banker, the consultant, the operations person. And I would go up to people and say, hi, I was a reporter in Miami, and I worked business for five minutes, and no one would let me into their study group. And so at the end, they gathered us all together and they said, you know, there's just a bunch of you who have not been led into any study groups. No group would let me in. Okay? And they said, okay, these are the names of the people who haven't been led into study groups. And they called our names, and then they organized us into our little study groups together. Yeah, it was me, and it was four guys. And they had not counted on a me being Sicilian and the four guys being really mad, as if they were Sicilians. And we just were so mad. And we got very fierce, and we all graduated with very well.

[B]

Are you kidding?

[A]

No. I was like, revenge is mine.

[B]

So this is so funny, your life. Cause again, you teach a course on purpose at nyu, which is wildly popular because everyone in the world is seeking theirs. Yes, but as you were navigating your life, purpose wasn't part of it. It was just, let me find the cool thing.

[A]

Well, or survive. Okay.

[B]

Or survive.

[A]

When I was going to business school, I was driving a Toyota where you could see the highway through the floor. Okay? I mean, I was paying for business school out of my own pocket along with Eric. My husband was paying for it. And then he lost his job, and we were living on fumes. One time I showed my kids a picture of the house where we were burglarized three times when I was in business school. I said, this is where I lived when I was in business school. This is how little money we had. We ate peanut butter out of a jar while I was going to business school. And the kids thought I was making it up. I was like, no. But here's the thing, Hoda, is that I do teach a class about purpose. And one of the reasons why I can teach it the way I do is I have such a heart for people who have lived their lives in default. I was 100% in default. Then I switched a little to deliberation. And then I went and said, okay, wait. What about a life by design? That's our choice.

[B]

Describe that. Yeah.

[A]

So there's three Ds. As I see it, we can live by default, totally in reactive mode, where we just bump along. Look, that's what I did. Like the first 30 years of. 35 years of my life. And it's. I had kids.

[B]

I married the guy next door. You take this job. Cause it's convenient. Whatever's right in your path.

[A]

That's right. And I had. Nobody's telling me. And I don't hold it against my parents. They were great in other ways. They were who they were. Amnesty for all parents, frankly.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

I've got four kids of my own. And I think that, you know, I just bumped along and I didn't have somebody ever who said to me, what are your values? What are your aptitudes? What are your interests? Which is the construct I use and let's synthesize them and see what your purpose is. Nobody said it to me. Or maybe I wasn't seeking it if they, or I wasn't listening if they did. And I just did what I saw going on. I just bumped along. I seized every opportunity. I wasn't seeking fun, I'll tell you that. It wasn't like I was saying, oh, what's fun? I was thinking, how do I pay a mortgage? How do I work and also see my children? I mean, I was really in the weeds of just survival for quite a long time. And so when I teach becoming you and people show up and they say I'm really lost or I have landed and the conveyor belt took me to the wrong place, I say, I get it. I feel you.

[B]

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[B]

Let's talk about purpose because I feel like people who are listening are trying to find theirs. And I think often, like you climb to the top of a ladder, but your ladder might be on the wrong wall, Right. But you don't know because you've just been doing it or you are going down a path like you were describing, where you live in a town, you find a job there, you meet a cute boy, you get married, you have kids, and just because of life, here you are. And you don't really know if you're supposed to be in that town with that guy, living that life. So I mean, let's start from very basic. You're. Someone's listening. I don't know my purpose. I have a job, I need to pay my rent, I have to get my insurance, I have kids, I'm busy. I don't have time to be thinking about what it is. But how do you begin?

[A]

Well, the first thing you begin to understand is that life is a lot better with a purpose. And we have. There are four psychological dynamics that keep us from living our purpose, but we have to fight them every day of our life.

[B]

Okay, what are the four?

[A]

There's expediency, which is it's just easier to do it the way. That's the total thing. There's. I have them all with ease because I'm a teacher. So I like to name things. There's events, something happens, like, you know, somebody gets sick and you sort of get drifted away from your purpose and then you never go reclaim it.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's economic security, which is that there is a proven psychological dynamic that we will often make decisions based just on what gives us the most money, whether we care about money or not. Okay. So even if we don't care about money, we'll still take the economically most rewarding job and then later, even if

[B]

we don't like the job.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah. This one pays more.

[A]

Right. And then there's expectations. What Society expects of us what our culture expects of us. Those are interesting. And those are what we expect of ourselves. So we drift away from our purpose or we're pulled away from it unless we fight, fight, fight for it. Okay, then. Then the big problem is that people tell you, look, you really should be living your purpose. And you know when you're not, because you've got an oh feeling, like your body tells you how, like how you know, like you're not quite happy all the time. It's good, but it's never quite good enough. You have this aching feeling there's something else. Okay, then you're not in your, what I call area of transcendence, okay? That's when you're limited.

[B]

Some people feel like maybe I just have an itch I can't scratch. I'm that kind of person. And how do you know the difference between I haven't found my sweet spot or I'm just that kind of person who needs the next thing, okay, so there are people.

[A]

And it's an absolute distinct temperament and personality type that flits from thing to thing to thing. But you know what? Even for them, there's a purpose, okay? There's work that accommodates that. You know when you're living your purpose, when you feel exquisitely alive. And if you can say, I feel exquisitely alive, then you know you're living it. And I'm seeing you smile.

[B]

Oh, that's good.

[A]

That's what it is. I mean, look, I know when I'm in the belly of the beast, teaching in front of my class. I mean, I have very large classes, and I'm standing up there and I'm teaching. I could levitate. I feel exquisitely alive. There's some energy going back and forth between the students, and I, I doing what I think I'm good at, and they are getting something out of it. And there's just this energy in the room, and I'm like, I could sleep in this. I love it so much. Don't take it off of me. And that's when you know you're living your purpose. And so you know when you're in it. And I think you also know when you're not quite there. Now, there definitely are people who have a characteristic. I mean, there's actually an obvious type of person, but even they have work that would meet that need of switching around.

[B]

So let's say you have the, you know, that you don't have that exquisite feeling. So now what's the very first thing I should do?

[A]

There is a methodology. My methodology is not the only one. Obviously I like my methodology. And my answer to the how is you figure out your values, you figure out your aptitudes, and you figure out what your economically viable interests are. And at the center of those three spheres, overlapping spheres, lies your purpose.

[B]

Okay, values. Let's begin. Because, yeah, that's values.

[A]

So values is a word gets thrown around constantly. I mean, it is, you know, progressive value, liberal values, conservative values, family values. And everyone is scared of the word values. And then if you ask people what their values are, they go family health. And so when I got to NYU Stern my first year, I thought, I am finally going to do some research on this. And I did a very large study across all different demographics. And I know what the definition of values, because this is my area of academic expertise is values expression. And we did the research and the number of people who actually can define values is 17%. Okay, only 17%. And what they are is they are

[B]

the deeply held beliefs that give examples of values that are not family faith.

[A]

And okay, so there's 15 core values. So let's just take this value of beholderism. This is a true value. It's exactly. What it means is how much you care about how things look. Okay, so like how you care about how you look and your house looks, that's actually a value. And we get very pissy with each other saying all you care about is. But no, there's a value and some people really care about.

[B]

I have a friend who loves things to look just right and beautiful.

[A]

That's her aesthetic. That's right.

[B]

So that's a value.

[A]

It's actually a value. It is the deeply held beliefs, wants and desires that animate your actions and your decisions. Okay? And so there is family centrism, which how much do you want family as a life organizing principle? How much do you want achievement? How much do you want money? We get very specific about this with the inventory because financial security is not an answer. Financial security could be everything from having enough money to pay your mortgage to having one helipad per kid. Okay? Money is different to people. And so there's these 15 values. And I think everybody would be better off finding out where they are in each one of these values and sort of having a values DNA profile. So you could actually go talk to your family and say, look, I really value work. Here's another one. Agency. So agency is a value about how much self determination you want. You know, ho to some people collaborate. They go along to get along. And Other people have to drive the bus and it has to be their way. And people have a lot of fights. Divorces happen over it. But this is actually a value of how much your life is organized around getting what you want. I'm like a values agnostic. Like, if you're not hurting anybody, you should have the values you want. Okay? So the divorce value, as I call it, one of the biggest and most controversial values I had to give a Greek name to because people got so freaked out about. I call it eudaimonia. It's the Greek word for high spirits. But it's really fun.

[B]

Fun, okay?

[A]

It's self care, it's pleasure. It's recreation. It's sex, okay? It's all those things that make you feel very good, okay? And some people organize their lives around getting those things. And for other people, eudaimonia is a very low value. And couples get divorced over it, okay? Or people separate over it. You know, if you're in a couple, like, I actually know a couple got divorced over this. The husband was just. He was the party. He was the movable party. And in fact, very luckily, he got a job on Wall street and he was a salesman, and everybody loved the party. He was always. And the wife had other values. She had family centrism, she had achievement, she had affluence. She had a value called belonging, which is friendship. And he was just the party animal. And they fought about, you're this, you're that. And the facts were they just had very different levels of this value. Could they reconcile it? No, but they didn't even have the language to talk about it.

[B]

So once you've figured out what your values are, and then how do you go about. How does that formulate your purpose?

[A]

Well, then you've got to figure out your aptitudes.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. Because your values could be luminance, which is fame, and it could be affluence, which could be very, very r. But you don't have any skills that are gonna allow you to do that. You know, I always say, like, if you wanna be a singer, you know, better sound like Mariah Carey. Okay? You could wanna be Lady Gaga, but if you don't have the skills, okay? So the second step, I mean, if it was just values, it would be a very, very different world. So the next thing you have to do is figure out your aptitudes. Well, aptitudes are two things. There are cognitive wiring. There's eight big cognitive aptitudes. You were born with them. Your girls were born with them. And they describe things like how we make decisions, how we manipulate objects in space. And every one of these aptitudes is linked to different jobs. Okay. You could be very high on some things and very low on others. So there's eight aptitudes, very easy to be tested for them. Okay? It's a test takes an hour and a half. Then there's another set of aptitudes, and that's our personality. Yeah, okay. Because, you know, some people are just very good at their jobs because of their personality. All right, you, in many ways, Hoda, like, your personality is one of your most splendid aptitudes. Just, you're so lovable and so empathetic and all these other things. I mean, I. But you've got other incredible skills. But. So we have to figure out our aptitudes, both our intellectual aptitudes and our emotional aptitudes. And here's the hard part. We can test really, really well for intellectual aptitudes. Easy test. We can test for personality traits pretty well. But the ultimate test is to ask the world how it experiences us. And usually we're around 80 years old, and we finally say, yeah, I thought I was empathetic, but everybody thought that I was a complete ass. And so the thing about it is there has to be a way to find out how the world experiences it.

[B]

Well, I love how you spoke to your kids one time and you thought your kids saw you a certain way. Tell me that story.

[A]

So in my class, I test for how the world receives you. And I thought, I'm gonna be a big girl, and I'm gonna go along with my class, and I'm gonna test for how the world receives me. Right. This is a big test called the lmap. And I thought, you know, at that time, my life was crazy. My husband had died, and I was a mess. But I thought, even though I'm a mess and everything is kind of blowing up around me, as it does when this kind of life change happens, surely everyone sees that I am the eye of the storm. I'm very calm, and Susie totally has this. And then I got my results back, and I'd asked my kids to be in the 30 people who had evaluated me anonymously. But it was very easy to see what my kids evaluations were because they were like, susie needs to stop adopting dogs. Susie needs to breathe. Susie needs to take up meditation. And I found out from my kids that for the past year, when they were talking about me behind my back, which kids do that, they were sending each other a rap song. That was called Here comes the hurricane, bitch. And every single time they were gonna say every time they were reporting on me to each, okay, My kids are in their 30s. They report on me constantly. It's a terrible song. Ba ba. But about here comes the hurricane and they would send it. And I forced them to confront me with this. And I thought, what did they say? First I pleaded with them. They were like, we're not telling you. And finally they broke down. They had Marcus tell me he's my favorite and shouldn't say that, but he's a wonderful person. And finally he knew he was beyond reproach. So he broke down and said, mom, you really are being received by all of us as really frenetic and chaotic. And I thought, I am the hurricane. They don't think I'm the eye of the hurricane. They think I am the hurricane. And I thought, that's it. I needed to hear it. I am a grown up and I'm gonna downgrade myself to a tropical storm. And I spent the next year downgrading myself to tropical storm. Not by taking the chaos out of my life, because I love chaos and I have high scope, which is a value about how big you want your life to be. I took out by communicating better. So I would say things like, I turn when things were really crazy in the office, I would turn to my team and I would say things seem crazy, but I'm great. And I feel like everything's under control and it's a marvelous day and no one needs to be scared at this moment because I've got it. And I just changed my communication.

[B]

Yeah, you just got it.

[A]

And everybody's like, oh, really? It's not crazy. Susie and I. It's like, it may feel crazy to you, but I'm good.

[B]

That changed it.

[A]

It changed a lot.

[B]

More to come with Susie Welch. Stay with us.

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[A]

20. About. Yeah, we were together longer because we had to. Had some free work we had to do. He was separated and had to get divorced and it was a mess. But I. We were together, we met in 2001 and we made it to when he died in 2020.

[B]

So, I mean, everyone knows Jack Welch is kind of a legend in business. You know him, obviously, in so many other ways. But what did you lose the day he passed?

[A]

Oh my God, is this podcast seven hours long? I was my best friend. I lost my mentor, I lost my boyfriend, I lost my co parent. I mean, he helped me raise my kids. You know, it's funny, as he's been gone five years now, every day I kind of realize a new thing that I lost. Like the number of times I've said, oh God, I just need Jack to make this decision for me. And I've made some really boneheaded decisions since he passed, really. Like occasionally I just bought the wrong house and had to sell it kind of thing. And I thought he was such a good governor. Like we were governors to each other in terms of decision making and he was my sounding board. So for the first time in my life, really since 21 years old, I've been unmarried and alone for the past five years. And so it feels, I mean, except for my dogs and they're useless.

[B]

But you love those dogs.

[A]

I don't.

[B]

Your dogs are such a part of all of you.

[A]

They are. They're great. I have Two shepherds and a dogs. And they're crazy. They're good companions, but they don't answer me when I say things like, should I sell the house? Ride back. So that's what I lost. I mean, I lost, but I also gained self knowledge about myself. I gained slowly the awareness that I could build something on my own. I wish I didn't have to learn that lesson, but I learned it.

[B]

To build something on your own. Tell me about. Because you've had so many different parts of your life, which I so admire. This, the NYU teaching thing. You did this intensive course that I was dying to take. It happened to have been during my last week at work, which was a bummer.

[A]

Saturday we're having another.

[B]

Are you really?

[A]

Yeah, I'm doing all the time because the demand. People need to know their purpose.

[B]

So Susie does these intensives where people can show up in person.

[A]

I offer it on the NYU campus and it's my great joy to teach it. I mean, it's pretty intense, but people come in wondering what their purpose is, and they go out with a piece of paper with their purpose on it. That's my goal. Now. Will they change it? Yeah, they'll tweak it or they'll revisit it or they'll say, this is gonna be my purpose in two years. Cause I can't do it right now. But this is. This is my purpose.

[B]

If you had taken that test back in the crime solving day, or crime days, or if you took it when you were in business school, or if you had taken that exact same test then, do you think you'd be here?

[A]

Well, I would be here faster. Okay? I would have been here a lot faster. Because your values change. I mean, when I was coming out of business school, I had a very, very high value of affluence. Why? Because I was poor. I mean, I really was. I did eat peanut butter out of a jar and I did have a car with a hole in the floor. But my values around that have changed because of I've. My life has changed and I don't have as much urgency around it. I have enough. But I think that. Think probably if I had taken it 20 years ago, I would have gone directly into teaching because. And it's so funny, Hoda, when I look back when I was at HBS, they recruited me to get my PhD. I was getting my MBA. And one of the deans came and said, we'd really like you to stay here and get your PhD. And I looked at him like he had two heads. And I was like, what? And I said, what? Why? And he said, you know, Susie, you're going to be a teacher someday. Why don't you just stay and start that career with us right now? And I always think back that Gene has since passed away, but if he had not, I would have gone back to him and said, what did you see?

[B]

What did he see?

[A]

He saw something. But I'll tell you, the minute I started teaching in 2021, I was like, oh, my God, this is it. It was waiting for me. And I didn't know enough about me. I didn't realize the fit between my aptitudes and my values. And, like, I have a very high value of nansibi, which is helping other people. And it was just sitting there waiting for me to.

[B]

Waiting for you. But you've also talked about happiness. Now everyone's chasing it. And you know what? I like you just cut right through it. So what are your thoughts on people who are seeking it?

[A]

I think happiness is not a goal. I think it's an outcome. I think happiness is an outcome of a meaningful, productive life. And it's even more an outcome if the life is also connected. There's evidence that shows that connection to other people adds to it. But I think if you have a meaningful, productive, connected life, you will be happy. And so I think we're chasing the wrong goal, chasing happiness. I think we chase meaning. We chase feeling productive and we chase feeling connected. But here's the thing. Even if you achieve those things, you still might not be happy. Why? You may have anxiety, or you may have a kid who goes off the rails. Not that that's ever happened to me personally. Or you may have a spouse who gets sick. Okay, So I think happiness is an elusive goal. If we can get it, great. I'll take purpose, because purpose is more sustainable. And typically the side of purpose is happiness. But I feel like offering people happiness as a outcome. Look, it's not my area of expertise. I mean, it's just not. I have just different things I do.

[B]

I was listening to your podcast, which, by the way, if you have not. I love promoting another podcast on my podcast. But your podcast, the Susie Welch Podcast, is full of life lessons, and it almost feels like you're just chit chatting and doing what you do, and you're by yourself and you're just talking. But you told the story about when your third child was born and what you were going through in that moment. I mean, it was terrifying and it had all the things. But you equated it to what we're all kind of seeking. Do you feel like you were a good mom when you look back?

[A]

My kids would tell you I was. I would like them all again. I'd like to do it again. I'm a really good grandmother. I think I was working a ton. I worked nonstop. I loved my work. I think there's some things I did really well. Like I spoke to them, but I was not a coochie coochie coo mom. Like I was not into babies. I was not ever on the floor. But here's the one thing I'll say. I was the mother I was. I never tried to be the mother. I wasn't.

[B]

Oh, that's good.

[A]

I mean, I talked to my kids. I was fully myself. I told them my feelings all the time. Like I was never secretive. I said to them things like, mommy loves her work and one day you're gonna grow up and go away, but I'm still gonna be here and I don't wanna be looking for a job when I'm 50 years old. I wanna stay in my work. And I told them the truth. They could trust me because I always told them the truth. Was I there for everything? So, no. I mean, I missed a lot. I missed a lot. But I'm making up for it now. Like I'm in their face every minute and they're in mine. And I'm gonna be a great grandmother. I just love being a grandmother and

[B]

I think it's cool. You were talking about one of your daughters who has a bunch tattoos.

[A]

Yes. And I think it's funny because a

[B]

lot of parents would be like flipping out over things. So how do you, when, when your kids do something that you're like, that's

[A]

counter to everything we.

[B]

Whatever. How do you deal or what do you do?

[A]

Okay, so number one about her tattoos. She's sort of. I can't stand them, but she has them. And she's an artist. And she got my favorite Bible verse tattooed on her arm. So she's kind of shut me down with that one. But the way I look at it is her, she has a very high value of something I call voice, which is creative self expression. And she's an artist and this is how she expresses herself with body art. And if I'm going to get out there and preach that everyone has a right to their values. If your values are not hurting anybody, live your values, then how can I possibly turn to my daughter and say, but don't live your values because I need you to Conform to my values. Okay? And so I just. She's a beautiful person who brings me nothing but joy. It's a journey. I mean, my kids have all. They've done things that have made me want to, you know, put them into a room and lock the door forever. And they've done things that have made me unspeakably proud. But I'm at this point where they can be my friends. And we talk. We talk about values all the time. And I understand their values, and I understand their aptitudes. And one thing I found out about my oldest son, who's the father of my granddaughter, is that his personality type was that when he felt challenged. So we learned this with aptitude testing. When he felt challenged, he disengaged. When I feel challenged, Hoda. And this had. We'd always locked horns on this. And then when I saw his aptitudes and I thought, oh, he's not disengaging. He just feels like he's not being heard. And I changed my behavior towards him. It was just life changing for us.

[B]

Okay, so back to the purpose, just to bring it full circle. So after we figured out the intersection, you said, right?

[A]

You have to. There's one little piece that we didn't talk about, which is interest. And some people know their interest. It's gotta be pharmaceuticals, it's gotta be medicine, it's gotta be health saving the world. It's gotta be climate change, it's gotta be taking care of children. I mean, some people know their interests. Other people think, wait, restaurateur or tech entrepreneur. I mean, and then that's gotta be worked out. And then you've gotta figure out, you know, some people know exactly what they want to do. So that is a. You gotta figure out your interests. And then you take a look at all of that data. It's a ton of data, right? And you say, what lies at the.

[B]

What lies at the center?

[A]

What lies at the center? Or you say, I love this job over there. And then you sort of do an autopsy and say, wait, does this job that I'm thinking about taking, or does this life that I'm thinking about pursuing, because it could just be, say, staying at home with your kids, which is a job. Does that. My values, my aptitudes, and my interests. So sometimes you sort of back into it, and other times you say, okay, what would be the logical extension of this set of data? And one way or the other, you get to it.

[B]

Okay, so if we want to do this whole thing that you're describing now, we can go to susiewelch.com, we won't have. You don't have all the stuff, but you'll have some of the tools.

[A]

Many of the tools are there. The book is coming out in May.

[B]

Let's talk about the book. Yeah, so tell us the title again.

[A]

It's called Becoming youg. It's called Becoming youg, which is the name of the whole methodology. And it comes out May 5th. And it has almost all of the exercises in it. And it leads you to the digital tools that help you go through. It doesn't everything, but it has almost everything in it.

[B]

Here's the thing. It's a how to. Because I think people. I've read many of these kinds of books and they all give you anecdotes and some cheerleading and a little tiny bit of guidance. This book will take you, like, by the hand and say, here's the first thing you do. The second thing you do. Third thing you do. It's coming out May 5th.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

It's by Susie Welch.

[A]

And like, I wrote this book for somebody in Winnipeg who is never gonna come to New York to take my class and just, you know, like, I. I wrote it for people who want to go through this process but cannot have access to it any other way.

[B]

So that's good.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

So I know you're an intensive person. I know you like to run. You know, like, you're always going. However a magic wand has happened and Susie Welch has nothing to do on one day. Nothing. 0, 0, 0. You can wake up when you want and sleep what you want. You're blowing my mind. You will fill this day with what you want. You're making space for yourself. For you. How does the day begin? What's the first thing you do when you open your eyes? And how do you follow through on that day?

[A]

Oh, my God. This is a mind bender. I'd pray. That's the first thing I do. I'm a very faithful person. My faith is my top. My cosmos, which is our word for God is my number one value. So I'd pray. But I do that every day anyway. But maybe I'd give more time to prayer. I'd get more centered in that I think. I wouldn't run. Even though you might think that's what I'm gonna do next because my body's telling me to slow that down. Okay. I'm 60, and my feet are saying, I think you've run enough now. But I probably would take a walk in the woods. And if I had My druthers. I'd take it with my dogs and I'd take it with my kids and my daughter in laws and my grandbaby. And then I think, you're not gonna like this answer, but I think I'd work. I mean, that's how much I love my work. If I could do anything, I'd get back to work. I'd meet with a client, I'd plan an intensive. You can't keep me away from it.

[B]

I love that you know exactly how.

[A]

Cause I can't picture what I would do in the afternoon, Hoda. I'm sitting here thinking, like, wait, what would I do? And I think I'd do something with work. And maybe in the evening I'd go out with friends. I have so many like you, many good girlfriends. And I'd go be with them. I guess.

[B]

By the way, I thought what you underscored. Cause I've never had anyone who said this at the end, but I think it just reminds you, like, everybody's value system is just what makes them feel good.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And when you know, you know, people are like, stop working. You're like, but I like it. Why am I stopping?

[A]

Like, my work gives me meaning. And it's like, let's not pick on each other. You don't value work centrism the way I do. Power to you, power to me. Let me just live my life. I mean, the whole point of finding your purpose is so you can be authentic. And like I say, just to borrow the most beautiful quote of all time and tweak it, is that the arc of life is long and it bends towards authenticity. It has to, because you can't hold your breath that long. You've got to become yourself eventually because once. What agony not to become yourself. And we do inch towards authenticity. I'd like us to jog. You know, I think that inching towards it can be agonizing. And, you know, people just, sometimes they, they get so far from their authenticity that they blow up. And we could prevent a lot of, you know, people just sort of saying, I can't take it anymore. If we could get them on the path to authenticity.

[B]

Susie Welch, thank you. I love. Hey, guys, thank you so much for listening and for coming on this journey with me. If you like what you heard, and I hope that you do, please give Making Space a five star rating and review on Apple Podcasts and make sure you tell your friends. Follow us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you're listening right now. Making Space with Hoda. Kotb is produced by Alison Berger and Alexa Casavecchia, along with Kate Saunders. Our associate Authority Audio engineer is Juliana Masterilli. Our audio engineers are Katie Lau and Bob Mallory. Original music by John Estes. Bryson Barnes is our head of audio production. Missy Dunlop Parsons is our executive producer. Libby Leish is the executive vice president of Today and Lifestyle.

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