Ash Brandin: Why Less Screen Time Isn't Always Better

Summary

Podcast Summary: mal ehrlich – "Ash Brandin: Why Less Screen Time Isn't Always Better"
Release Date: February 23, 2026
Host(s): Andrea Jansen & Michèle Widmer
Guest: Ash Brandin (aka The Gamer Educator)
Language: English

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Episode Overview

In this engaging episode, hosts Andrea Jansen and Michèle Widmer talk with Ash Brandin, a Colorado-based middle school teacher, parent, and author of "Power On." Ash is widely known online as The Gamer Educator, where they advocate for a nuanced and empathetic approach to screen time and gaming in families. The conversation challenges prevailing narratives around technology and offers listeners a refreshing and realistic perspective: less screen time is not always inherently better. Instead, Ash argues for context, consistency, and understanding a family’s broader needs.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Ash Brandin and Their Work

• Ash introduces themselves as a middle school teacher (ages 11–14), teacher-librarian, and parent of a nine-year-old.
• They are passionate about video games, hiking, baking, and empowering families and caregivers through education.
• Their journey as The Gamer Educator began in 2021, mainly to reach a wider audience during the pandemic and quickly found that parents and caregivers, not just educators, needed guidance on technology.
  • "I honestly didn't think I needed to be talking to caregivers… obviously that's where a lot of people struggle is as a caregiver now navigating things with technology." (05:42)

2. Why "Less Screen Time" Isn't Always the Answer

• The episode repeatedly emphasizes that screen time is not inherently harmful; context and consistency matter more.
  • “The opposite of a binary perspective is to instead say that this thing [technology] can be neutral... and that does make it possible then to be more on the side of families and caregivers.” (09:10)
• Ash reframes screen time as a tool that can empower caregivers, offering practical benefits like allowing parents to prepare meals or take breaks (see "The Dinner Analogy," 11:50).
• Caregivers should consider the family as a whole, not just the child’s needs:
  • “We also want our kids to grow up, seeing the model of considering multiple people right and thinking about finding what's going to work for everyone.” (14:18)

3. The Origins and Flaws of Traditional Screen Time Guidelines

• Many families still feel guilt for not meeting outmoded guidelines (zero screen time under two, then one to two hours per day), though most families cannot meet these targets.
  • “If three out of four caregivers can't meet this recommendation, what's the common denominator here?” (16:34)
• Ash reveals these guidelines were largely derived from concerns over sedentary behavior, not because of robust data about harm.

4. Technology, Mental Health, and Misleading Narratives

• The hosts raise anxiety about smartphone "addiction" fueled by works like "The Anxious Generation."
• Ash counters that empirical evidence finds negligible direct harm from screen use compared to other daily variables.
  • “Wearing glasses and eating potatoes had larger impacts on their mental health outcomes than their smartphone use.” (19:54)
• The most significant positive factor is a teen’s relationship with their caregivers, not their screen time.

5. Intrinsic Motivation and Why Screens Are Attractive to Kids

• Citing the Self-Determination Theory, Ash outlines three needs games and screens can fulfill for kids: autonomy, competence, and relatedness (23:33).
  • “They are craving a sense of autonomy... after school all day long and they're being told what to do... then they come home and that's kind of all they want. It makes sense that they would go to something that will give them that sense of autonomy in a really easily achievable way, like through a screen.”
• The key is to recognize what children are seeking via screen time and help them meet those needs in multiple ways—not to demonize their desire.

6. Transferring Video Game Experiences into Real Life

• Ash illustrates how the feeling of exploration in "Zelda: Breath of the Wild" inspired them to explore hiking trails in real life (30:07).
  • “...my first thought was like, oh my gosh, it's just like in Zelda... it obviously was not the same feeling, but it was a payoff that really wouldn't have been possible if I hadn't kind of had that seed planted through this game.”

7. The "Low-Hanging Fruit" Analogy: When Screens Make Sense

• Sometimes, giving children “the low-hanging fruit” (screens) is the right call, especially in moments of family exhaustion or for temporary relief.
  • “Sometimes recognizing, is this a time where the low hanging fruit is viable? ... If the other option is like trying to play I spy and occupy them while they are overtired and hungry... is that really better?” (34:44)
• Like adults reaching for coffee or TV for a quick dopamine fix, kids do the same with screens.

8. Consistency, Boundaries, and the ABCs of Screen Time

• Ash introduces the ABC framework:
  • A: Access – Less is not always more; unpredictable access increases fixation and scarcity mindset (43:25).
    • “If most caregivers don't want screens to feel special and then they... try to achieve that is by withholding them... that can go to a place of what we call scarcity mindset, which is not knowing when I'm going to get something...” (43:25)
  • B: Behavior – When kids struggle to turn screens off, it may not be about defiance, but about unclear rules or inappropriate timing.
  • C: Content – Know what games and shows your child uses, and that these are not monolithic (especially true for platforms like Roblox and YouTube; see 60:00).
• The solution: consistent and predictable routines (e.g., screen time always after homework, always ends before dinner), not arbitrary deprivation.

9. Managing Tantrums and Emotional Responses Around Screens

• The hosts discuss the emotional meltdowns kids have when screen time ends and how easily parents can feel unappreciated or guilty.
  • Ash likens this to food boundaries: adults decide the when, what, and how much, and kids get to have feelings about it (51:34).
  • Kids protest boundaries as a way of checking if the rules are firm—a normal part of their development.

10. Handling Popular Games and Content Concerns

• Not all platforms are equal: Roblox is not one game, but millions, many created by strangers (60:00).
  • "I don't particularly care for [the Roblox game my child plays], but it's fine... they're playing it on the television, when an adult is in view... It's not because I don't trust my child, it's because I don't trust the platform." (60:00)
• For "free to play" games like Fortnite, Ash’s main warning is about predatory monetization and ad exposure, not violence.

11. Peer Pressure and Navigating Social Landscapes

• Technology use is closely tied to peer relationships and belonging—negotiating boundaries is similar to scenarios with curfews, fashion, etc. (66:12).

12. Game Recommendations From Ash

• Ash recommends games that challenge expectations and can foster deep conversations.
  • The works of Lucas Pope: The Republic of Times, Papers, Please, Return of the Obra Dinn (67:22).
  • What Remains of Edith Finch is also highly recommended for a short, poignant gaming experience.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "The opposite of a binary perspective is to instead say that this thing can be neutral... and that does make it possible then to be more on the side of families and caregivers." (09:10, Ash)
• "If three out of four caregivers can't meet this recommendation, then what does that say about the reality for most families?" (16:34, Ash)
• "Wearing glasses and eating potatoes had larger impacts on their mental health outcomes than their smartphone use." (19:54, Ash)
• "They are craving a sense of autonomy... after school all day long and they're being told what to do... then they come home and that's kind of all they want." (23:33, Ash)
• "If most caregivers don't want screens to feel special and then they... try to achieve that is by withholding them... that can go to a place of what we call scarcity mindset, which is not knowing when I'm going to get something..." (43:25, Ash)
• "Roblox is essentially the YouTube of gaming... Am I okay with my child seeing things not being professionally curated?" (60:00, Ash)
• "Sometimes a distraction is actually the appropriate strategy. Like I do need to distract myself because of things, right? Either the world or my own life." (71:14, Ash)

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Detailed Timestamps

• 00:00-04:55 — Ash’s background, family, and teaching experience
• 05:42-09:10 — Becoming The Gamer Educator, speaking to caregivers, motivation for the book
• 09:10-14:18 — Neutrality in technology, reframing screen time as empowerment
• 14:18-16:34 — Considering the whole family, not just kids; balancing needs
• 16:34-19:27 — History and flaws of screen time guidelines, collective guilt
• 19:54-23:33 — Anxiety, addiction myths, and what studies actually show
• 23:33-30:07 — Intrinsic motivation: autonomy, competence, relatedness
• 30:07-34:03 — Finding “real world” equivalents to the feelings screens provide (Zelda, hiking)
• 34:44-39:37 — "Low hanging fruit" analogy—sometimes screens are the right answer; dopamine
• 39:37-43:25 — Routines, decompressing with screens, preparing kids for self-regulation
• 43:25-46:24 — The ABCs of screen management: Access, Behavior, Content
• 46:24-51:34 — Addressing how much is too much, working with routines that suit your family
• 51:34-57:53 — Managing feelings, boundaries, and protest around screen time
• 60:00-66:12 — Roblox, Fortnite, freemium games, content curation, and child readiness
• 66:12-67:22 — Peer pressure and social context of technology
• 67:22-70:50 — Unconventional game recommendations for families
• 71:14-73:44 — When distraction is appropriate, using tech as a coping tool in anxious times

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Tone & Takeaways

• The tone is supportive, encouraging, and rooted in empathy—offering practical, nonjudgmental strategies for families negotiating real-life messiness.
• The episode's core message: It’s not about rigid screen limits, but thoughtful, predictable routines and communication that consider everyone's needs and the context.
• Ash urges caregivers to replace guilt with curiosity, to stay engaged with what their kids are interested in, and to frame technology as one tool among many for connection and relief.

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Final Message

Ash and the hosts conclude with the hope that listeners feel less alone, more empowered, and equipped to navigate family screen time with nuance and less anxiety. Ash’s book, Power On, is available via mal ehrlich’s concept store and online.

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For more, visit mal ehrlich’s website and explore Ash Brandin’s resources as The Gamer Educator.

Transcript

[Ash Brandon]

Most caregivers don't want screens to feel special and then the way that they kind of try to achieve that is by withholding them that can go to a place of what we call scarcity mindset, which is not knowing when I'm going to get something and so when I don't know, when I'm going to get something, I focus on it.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

Das ist mal ehrlich, der Podcast. Am I a better caregiver? If my kids get less screen time? Will they get addicted if I let them watch more than one hour of TV a day? Or will they get violent if they play a violent video game? All of these questions cannot be answered with a yes or no. But they need to be discussed and the person to discuss them with is Ash Brandon. They are a middle school teacher and a content creator for education and gaming. Under the handle the gamer educator. You can find them on Instagram and that's where I found them too. They also wrote a book on the whole thing which is called Power on. I read it and I can highly recommend it. Of course we will sell it in our concept store. If you're wondering why this podcast is in English today. Ash Brandon lives in Colorado, USA. We will have a German translation that you can download beneath the podcast or on our website. But we really hope you enjoy the conversation. Thank you so much for making the time to talk to me today, Ash

[Ash Brandon]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad we could make it work across our time zones.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

I know and especially you just told me that your child was home sick. So may I ask what is your child doing right now?

[Ash Brandon]

Well, funny you should ask. My child is watching television right now? Because they are ill and because I needed to be otherwise occupied. We're really living up to to I'm putting my advice into practice today.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

I know this is. This is actually like we're diving right into the conversation. People for people who have never heard of you, which you know they might not have because we're in Switzerland. I've known you from Instagram from your handle the gamer educator. And then, because I was a great follower of yours. I also read your book. You can see, I made a ton of notes. I don't think we can touch on. Yeah, I know like I don't want to scare you. But no, it's a delight today.

[Ash Brandon]

It's a delight. It's like a thrill.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

I did, I did. I have some key takeaways for myself just for your reference So you know, like I have three kids, eight, eleven and thirteen, so you know this is a huge thing at my house, but I do want to like say something about yourself you, you are a school teacher and you have middle school kids that you. Teach for our Swiss audience, like what is middle school, what age group are we talking?

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah, I don't know how that works in your system. If you have like a separate, sort of like middle level of schooling, so

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

for we do, but it's super complicated,

[Ash Brandon]

okay, okay, in the US middle school is kind of like the beginning of secondary school, like it's the transition between elementary and high school, so for us it's an age range of around eleven to fourteen, so it's generally three years and so they enter when they're eleven, and then by the time they leave in eighth grade, going out of eighth grade into high school, they tend to be fourteen, so it's sort of those like middle beginning of adolescence, transitional years, which is, you know, a really intense time for anyone. I know there's a lot going on

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

there is, but you're probably the cool teacher, right? Because they get to talk about gaming with you.

[Ash Brandon]

Well, you know what hopefully sometimes, and currently I work as the teacher librarian, so I'm in the library at my school now, which is already a cool way to interact with kids, because you're an adult, but you're a little bit different, because you're not a classroom teacher, kind of seeing them in a different way. But that is something that I've noticed for a long time in my teaching was, you know, many teachers were willing to talk to kids about their interests, if those interests were like sports or you know, kind of more traditional activities, but less so with things like video games. And I was always amazed at how far I could get with a student. If video games were something I was comfortable even talking about, even if it wasn't something I personally liked, but yeah, it was definitely an area of connection to a lot of students resonate with

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

you're also the parent of one child. Is that correct?

[Ash Brandon]

That's correct. I have a nine year old, yeah,

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

a nine year old, okay, And then I found out, these are the things I found out about you. Like by reading your book, you love hiking, which I think you should come to Switzerland at some point, if you haven't yet.

[Ash Brandon]

It's been a very long time since I was ages, so yes, happy for an excuse to go back, I know

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

we'll invite you you like baking too gaming obviously. And you live in Colorado where you just had a big storm.

[Ash Brandon]

I believe, yeah, it was extremely cold, but we didn't. It wasn't as bad as other places, so the US got hit pretty badly with a big storm recently and we honestly weren't that bad. But yes, we do thankfully have a lot of mountains here, not quite the Alps, but we do have some good options.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

I mean, you have some pretty impressive ones too When you started content creating as the gamer educator, like, how did this come about? Like, what did you want to accomplish with it and why did you do it?

[Ash Brandon]

Oh, that's a great question. What do I want to accomplish? I'm not sure I knew the answer to that then it was very organic. I've been kind of just wondering like am I ever going to try to go more into online to reach more people. And honestly, it was because it was twenty twenty one and we were still very like locked down and cautious with Covid, because my child was not yet vaccine eligible and they weren't. Really available anyway yet. And I realized that any in person opportunities I had to. Speak about these kinds of perspectives were. It was just not really viable given our cautiousness with Covid and so I thought well, okay, I guess I need to kind of put this somewhere. I needed to like scratch the itch of getting that content out there. And previously I'd mostly focused on education and gaming, because it was obviously relevant to my life. And I honestly didn't think I needed to be talking to caregivers, because naively my assumption was like well, if caregivers are letting their kids play these things, then they must understand like the validity of them which I sound so naive saying that now, because obviously that's where a lot of people struggle is as a caregiver now navigating things with technology. So I just sort of initially pivoted thinking I'd be speaking to educators and then realized very quickly that my audience was not educators, that it was initially a lot of homeschool communities, a lot of homeschool families, which many people were homeschooling in that era, that don't typically but a lot of homeschool families, because they occupy that space between home and school. And then I realized that a lot of the things that they were worried about or that were coming up, were really about applying sort of educational practices like management and understanding of these things to technology. And I thought well, I can do that like we can talk about that. So that's when I kind of pivoted more and made my audience more caregivers or spoke to the audience that was there. And honestly, as an educator, my goal has always been to help like to help people and I think that education is empowering like I think if we really want to help people, the way to do that is by empowering them and education can really help with that. And so that was still my goal, even if my audience wasn't kids in a classroom, the goal was still, you know, helping caregivers navigate something that they felt unsure about what I think is

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

really different though from other people who talk about screen time and managing screen time is you, you give advice, but it's not like don't do this or avoid this at all costs or if you do this, you're gonna your kid's gonna get addicted. It's kind of like the other way around. So I showed my son your book and he was like he was just rolling his eyes and it's like oh mom and I said no, no, no, no, no, don't worry, they're on your side actually, because that's kind of like what it feels to read your book. I feel like you're almost an advocate, not only for the kids, but also for the families. And that's why it said benefiting the whole family and something really stuck with me when you said screen time can actually empower. You to be a better caregiver, can you explain that to me?

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah, I begin the book, so I read a lot of nonfiction and every time I read nonfiction, I'm generally there's something about the book, I'm interested in right. And often what I find is I'll open the book and then instead of immediately diving into the thing I'm interested about the book starts with like a whole huge chunk about history or foundational knowledge that needs to come first. And every time I'm like oh no, I just get to the good part and then I wrote a nonfiction book and I felt. Myself doing exactly the thing that I dislike where I was like we can't talk about what to do yet. But it was true, because if I said to families like OK, make screen time consistent and make it something that is available in a way that's predictable to your child. Many caregivers would not be able to do that, because they would think but it's bad and I don't want my kid to do it and I understand that impulse to feel that way. But I thought okay, so we actually have to start with addressing that. And so the first sort of the book is really devoted to sort of reframing the way that we look at these things and and I love that you said that you felt like I was sort of on the like on the side. Of families and kids for a minute I was thinking, oh, is she gonna say that I'm on the side of technology? Cause I think that's sometimes what people assume that, if you're not being critical of technology, that you must be like in favor of it and I don't think that's true at all I think you know the opposite of like a binary perspective. This thing is very good, very bad is not the opposite binary perspective. The opposite of binary perspective is to instead say that this thing can be neutral that we can just view it as another thing and then we can decide what to make of that and that does make it possible then to be more on the side of families and caregivers. And the reason why I think it's important to consider how it can empower families or help is that for many families and I'm in the US so obviously I'm speaking to that perspective, but for many families, especially in the US, we're already dealing with inequities that make it incredibly difficult to raise children without some assistance, right? And in the US we don't provide a lot of assistance to families and instead we kind of just pass that responsibility on to the individual caregiver. And so many caregivers are having to make up for that lack of systemic support and so many of them are using technology. But it's not because they're feeling great about that decision. It's often because they're doing so out of necessity, they don't really have another readily available option and so this is often what they turn to and so if that is what's happening, you know, the problem in that scenario is not the technology, you know the problem is that they don't have another way of meeting that needs. And I would love for that not to be true. I would love for families who have other ways of meeting needs, but that's a much more complicated issue and it's a lot that's not simple. So if screens and technology are something that can alleviate a barrier or can make it more possible for a caregiver to be more present with their child When they are available, then that is a benefit to the family, right? I use the analogy of dinner like making dinner. That's when my child is often having screens, one of us is making dinner. And if we were instead thinking, well, we should never have screens, screens are bad, you should avoid them at all costs. It's like, okay, well, which scenario is really ultimately better for everyone, including the children trying to make a meal with multiple kids, especially young kids, you know, running around and potentially being unsafe or potentially getting in the way and preventing you from making a meal that you would like to. And then you're dysregulated and you're eating, you know, kind of microwave convenience food most of the time, because that's all you could manage and they're not using screens or your kids are safely occupied and watching or playing something for thirty minutes and you're able to make a more nutritious meal and you're able to kind of take a break because you know they're safely occupied and then you all sit down at the table and you're able to better connect and you're more regulated. Like which of those is actually better? I would argue really the latter and sometimes, you know different situations will dictate different things, but thinking about it that way and thinking, oh yeah, sometimes if we are thinking about what everybody's needs are and how this can fit in, it can be a benefit to our kids and to us. And it's okay if it benefits us,

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

yeah, I think I was just gonna say that. I think that's the big difference right of just not only thinking about what's benefiting my kid, but like what is actually also benefiting me as a caregiver and the whole family as a consequence of that absolutely.

[Ash Brandon]

And the other reason I like to include the whole family is that know if I were, if I were to think only about my child and think like, okay, what's best for my child? I mean in a platonic ideal, yes, I suppose it would be nice if we never had technology and we never had a process food. I mean there's, you know, there's a lot of like utopian ideals, but that's just not realistic, right? And that would, also if I tried to provide all of those things that would not be best for me, because I would spend every moment of my time doing that and it would be impossible and I would just feel badly about my inability to provide that right? Because it's impossible. And on the flip side, if I thought like, well, what would be you know best for me? As a caregiver? Well, I mean, you could say like, oh, wouldn't it be nice if I could put my kid in front of a screen all day so I could just get a bunch of stuff done? And you know not have to worry about that. I mean yes, but I don't think most caregivers would be doing that, because they also know that that would not be best for their children. So we would not generally center our own needs above our children all of the time. But that doesn't mean we have to always be centering all of their needs without considering ourselves as well, because we also want our kids to grow up, knowing seeing the model of considering multiple people right and thinking about finding what's going to work for everyone.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

What I found really interesting is that you're saying screen time's not bad and I think that's really important, like a really important message like for me to listen to and like to hear and feeling better about my own decisions, but also like, yeah, feeling better about what I'm doing with my child and we're gonna, we're gonna dive into this. Like about screen time and gaming is all about and like all the benefits of ED because they're there. But I also want to ask you about the studies and you include them a little bit in your book. And what I found really really interesting was, first of all there was recommendations for screen time and then you said, seventy five percent of all households did not meet the recommendations.

[Podcast Advertiser/Promoter]

Yes.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

So basically, if we're all not meeting the recommendations, why are we collectively feeling bad about it?

[Ash Brandon]

Exactly, exactly. I'm really glad that you brought up that particular point, point. And again, that's definitely an American centric. Most of them in that chapter are, because I was really curious about where these initial recommendations really came from. Those haven't even been used for the better part of a decade. And yet, even now, if you go, if you google like, how much screen time should my child have? You're still going to see those recommendations, which is like zero time under age two, you know an hour, ages two to up to an hour, ages two to five, up to two hours, ages five to twelve And you're still going to see those, even though they haven't been recommended by the AAP in a long time and originally. I just wanted to know like where did these come from? Which was interesting, because they weren't necessarily based on like data. Originally actually most of a big part of the recommendation was trying to find a balance between sedentary activity and movement. And it was those recommendations originally were by the AAP saying that they were trying to mitigate childhood obesity, which there's a lot to unpack there, right? Assuming that like every second a child is in front of a screen, they're going to be like playing soccer and running around, right? Because it's not like they were giving recommendations of how much time they should read to avoid being sedentary, right? It was only particular sedentary activities. But I thought that that particular study that you're talking about was so enlightening, because it thought okay, okay, if three out of four caregivers can't meet this recommendation, then like what's the common denominator here? What's the thing that we could be gleaning from this? And I feel like most of the time, what a lot of what we hear and what we hear in media is all like the parents are the problem, like all of these parents are failing to meet this standard and it's so backward feeling of like okay, but this standard that isn't necessarily rooted in much to begin with could it possibly be the problem you know? Or could it be an indicator of something else? If most families can't meet this recommendation, then what does that say about the reality for most families? Because most families aren't using screens like I said from a place of feeling like this is a great thing, right? Most of them are using them and feeling guilty about it as you already alluded to so that to me feels more Like Perhaps the standard is the thing that we should be looking at critically and thinking about you know, what can we do to change this reality for families, if that's something we really want. As opposed to just making the families feel bad because they can't meet this

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

standard one big study, or like you know, obviously one of the big topics that's been talked about in the past year is the anxious generation and so I'm wondering like is the moment that we give our kid a smartphone or an iPad? It's like is that when it's over? Should we all be scared that our kids are gonna be addicted and anxious? Or how did you feel about you know how did you feel about that topic?

[Ash Brandon]

There is a study that I reference in my book that is also referenced in the anxious generation, which I find fascinating because we interpret them very differently. And it was a very large cohort of teens, I think fifty thousand teens. And the researchers found they looked at the relationship of certain factors in a teen's life to certain outcomes. Some of which were mental health related and some of. Those were obviously good things, like parental involvement. Some of them were obviously deleterious things, like drug or alcohol abuse or like exposure to domestic violence. And some of them were either were neutral, like whether or not they wore glasses or whether or not they ate breakfast or how much sleep they got or whether or not they wore whether or not they ate potatoes, was one of them, which they did on purpose to be kind of a control. And then they also looked at smartphones. And what they found was that the kind of neutral things, specifically wearing glasses and eating potatoes, had larger impacts on their mental health outcomes than their smartphone use. And when that study got published in the ancient generation, the only thing that he referenced was oh, there's A Relationship Between Smartphone Use and Mental Health. Outcomes. What he did not include was that. That relationship was one and a half times smaller than. The relationship of wearing glasses and mental health outcomes. So it was a great example in my opinion of really putting these objective data into context of I don't think the researchers are saying there's no impact, but they're saying okay, like how does this impact compare to other things? And the things that made the biggest difference were parental relationships that was the biggest factor was a teens like connection and relationship with their with their caregivers, which makes sense of course when you think about it So I make this analogy a lot. But if we're thinking about phones, technology and kids, I think it's a lot more helpful to Instead think about the skills that you think your child or teen might need to be able to navigate that thing and then think about how you are currently addressing those skills. I often compare it with like pools. You know that we know pools are dangerous, therefore we teach our kids to swim. You know, we don't just keep them from going into a pool until they're in the eighth grade and then say oh, it must be fine now we teach them along the way because they are dangerous, but because we also know that they're kind of an inevitable part of their lives.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

I think that brings us to this one part I found super interesting and it kind. Of like explained for me why my kids love their screen so much. And in your book you talk about intrinsic motivation and what that consists of. And let's talk about these three parts really quickly, because they make so much sense for me, right? First is autonomy and control and I mean I get it that's that's what the kids want from. Like when they, when they're two years old, that's what they strive for is autonomy, right? So and I feel like, yeah, you explain it for me. What is autonomy in that context?

[Ash Brandon]

Yes. So when we're talking about intrinsic motivation, the psychologists, academic psychologists, Desi and Ryan, they have, they kind of are the ones who really coined the term intrinsic innovation and they have what they call the self determination theory. Which are these three psychological needs that make up intrinsic motivation and they are autonomy, competence and relatedness. So feeling in control, feeling achievement and feeling somehow related to other people. And when something makes us feel one or more of those things then that tends to make us feel intrinsically motivated to continue doing it and for that could be any activity, right? If you think about something that you enjoy, chances are, it makes you feel one or more of those things you mentioned that I enjoy video games, but that I also like hiking and baking and that is true. And all three of those things kind of ignite the feelings in similar ways. And I'm glad you brought up autonomy because for me, what makes me feel in control And kind of having a sense of power is not getting to make any and every decision. I actually kind of find that overwhelming. What makes me feel autonomous is having sort of a goal and a clear way to get there and then I can just sort of follow the path to get there. So like if I'm hiking, I like to be on a trail. It's sort of determined for me and I follow the trail. I like to bake. I like to follow a recipe and a set of instructions. I like, you know, I like making Lego from a kit, right? And doing the same thing. And when I play video games, the games I like tend to be like that. You know, they're more objective driven or level based. I am not someone who would want to play a game like Minecraft. It just overwhelms me where it's like too it's too much. It just sort of makes me freeze up. So there's different ways to get that feeling. But most of us with what we enjoy, we're feeling some combination of those things. And for many kids you're exactly right. They are craving a sense of autonomy. I mean, we all are all the time in different ways. But whether it's I want to be able to choose the color sippy cup because I'm two. And I have very little else I can choose. Or when they get more into school age and they're at. School all day long and they're being told what to do and where to go all day long, right? They are losing a sense of autonomy all day long and then they come home and that's kind of all they want. It makes sense that they would go to something that will give them that sense of autonomy in a really easily achievable way, like through a screen. But that isn't bad, right? Like wanting to feel and control isn't bad. We wouldn't demonize that. If our kid was like I'm gonna go play guitar because I just want to noodle around and feel in control, We would not be like oh my God, they're addicted to the guitar, right? But if they do that in a video game, we're a lot quicker I think to condemn that. So one of the reasons I think it's helpful to be neutral is because if I can look at what my kiddo is doing on a screen and think what are they trying to get from this, then I can maybe think what are other ways that they could get that in other parts of their life that I can help them explore, so that they have more than one way of meeting this need and that this isn't the only way they have to meet it.

[Flex]

Nein, Flix, das ist ein fremder Ort, das haben wir noch nie gesehen. Komm, ich frage Daniel, sie weiß das sicher.

[Daniel]

Hallo.

[Flex]

Hi Daniel, da ist Lumo und Flex. Du, wir sind an einem Ort, wo wir noch nie gesehen sind. Weißt du, wo wir sind?

[Daniel]

Wir sind in einem anderen Podcast und wir dürfen uns da vorstellen.

[Flex]

Wow, Also ich bin Flex, das heißt schon gesagt.

[Daniel]

Okay, ich glaube, wir müssen uns richtig vorstellen. Wir sind vorher ein Podcast für Kinder, die gewunderig sind und wir klären hier ganz viele Fragen.

[Flex]

Stimmt, Wir freuen uns immer ganz fest, wenn wir Fragen von hinten außen beantworten und meistens wissen wir die Antwort nicht und darum läuten wir.

[Daniel]

Daniela Genau. Ich gehe immer auf die Suche nach einer richtigen Antwort zusammen mit einer Expertin oder einem Experten. Also könnt Kinder etwas lernen und Unterhaltung wird euch auch für das sind wir zuständig.

[Flex]

Ja, also meistens du Hallo zusammen. Ich kann jetzt eure Fragen euch schicken. Lex Wieso schreist du so? Ich würde das Kind euch gehören. Nein, ich könnte uns die Frage schicken.

[Daniel]

Genau, auch ihr könnt mit der Familie eine Frage bei uns einreichen. Alle Infos dazu gibt es auf hpodcast.ch oder in den Shownotes Und mit bisschen Glück landet es bei uns in HE im Podcast für Neugierige. Kind.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

That I found so interesting because yeah, they're building skills and they're finding out about. Also like the things that they like and what you were saying I think is really important the feeling that it produces and so interesting that you're saying that you don't like Minecraft. Minecraft is a big thing at our house for example and when I read the book I was thinking about, okay, I don't mind my kids playing that game at all. I just I mind the amount of it, right? And I mind always having these conversations and these fights that we have about the amount of screen time and I'm going. To get to that because you have such good advice on how to manage that. And you said that is maybe a way to find other things like not like take them away from their screen time at all, but like find something that evokes the same feeling. So I'm like already thinking what are the things and you have this list where you say like where you actually can kind of check like what is my kid playing and what does that do for them? So I'm thinking what are other activities that kind of fall into that same spectrum of feelings right and right. You had this one example with hiking and playing Zelda and if you could share that with us that really stuck with me.

[Ash Brandon]

Yes. So I'd hiked a little bit in some trails near our house, but not a particularly challenging way. And then right after my child was born was when Zelda Breath of the Wild came out, which is a more open ended Zelda game and you're in. This huge kind of universe and you're and a lot of it is, you have to spend a lot of time walking around and you spend a lot of time going up a lot of like mountains and trails because you're you're trying to kind of discover the world and my kiddo was, you know, really tiny and a newborn. So I spent a lot of time playing that game and frankly it was also kind of a way for me to feel like I was kind of out in the world because you know you have a newborn and you just you're kind of tied to home a lot of the time. So I was getting that exploratory feeling as much as I could, but it was sort of the bridge I needed because I'd hiked a little bit you know at home, but hadn't really gone into the mountains. And then I'm in Zelda and I'm, I'm exploring in the mountains in this game And I thought, oh I mean, I guess I could actually try that in real life, like I'm enjoying this there should I try this in real life And I decided that I, you know, I would and that summer I did my first sort of summit hike to what we would call a thirteen which is a mountain that's thirteen thousand feet or higher. And I was, you know, getting up toward the top of this mountain and it's you know, the sun has come up and it's beautiful and I'm kind of coming up this ridge and I look over and underneath is this alpine lake down below me, that I couldn't see before. And I mean truly my first thought was like, oh my gosh, it's just like in Zelda, it looks just like Zelda, because I had done that exact thing of like seeing this lake and seeing it glittering and feeling like I discovered something and it obviously was not the same feeling, but it was a payoff that really wouldn't have been possible if I hadn't kind of had that seed planted through this game and you know, I'd be lying if I said that I didn't still think about that game sometimes when I'm out hiking in the world and there are times where I can't go hiking, right? I can't drive two hours and then hike and then come home. I don't have the time and so there are times where the more accessible way for me to meet that need is through a game and by being neutral I can say, okay, what is it that I want? And if it's that feeling of like I just kind of want to explore safely and feel like I've accomplished something, well, okay, maybe I can take a walk, but maybe I can also play this game and at another time maybe I can go do it in real life and they can kind of coexist with each other. It's not like a exactly.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

And one is not less than the other, right?

[Ash Brandon]

Like, yes, exactly. And people are going to hear that and go, but yes, it is because you're moving your body and say okay, yes. But like in terms of the morality, right? Like one of these experiences is not like morally superior to the other. They're both, they both enrich your life or have the potential to do so and that. And we wouldn't want to only do one, right? Like we wouldn't want our only way of ever feeling good and ever feeling in control to be hiking, because that's not sustainable either, right? Right? That's like it will be hard for me to have a family life if every moment I'm trying to leave hiking, right? So finding that balance is important and finding it in ways that you know are varied depending on what's available to you and what your need is, I think is important, yeah.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

But I think like finding that balance for themselves for our kids is obviously too difficult, especially when they're younger so we have to do it for them. And you also said that obviously they're going to reach for the low hanging fruit, like as we do, right? We don't if I have to like pack my backpack and get up and put on my boots and maybe it's not like the best weather weather outside. It's not gonna what I'm gonna choose. I'm gonna like just hang on the couch and and play right, right, right, so, yeah. So I have one choice would be to give them another option, but also remove the low hanging fruit, right?

[Ash Brandon]

I mean yes, that would be one option and another option, depending on what's sustainable, right? Or what is a bit what you? Feel you can take on is to think about you know what what need, like what need. Is this low hanging fruit trying to? Meet? I've made this analogy before and I'll this definitely comes up when families, especially families with neurodivergent kids or kids with ADHD are concerned about Dopamine. Like it's thrown out around a lot. Dopamine's kind of become this four letter word, like it's some like terrible influence. It's like well we we do kind of need Dopamine to live, like it is a pretty important, like part of our, of our neurochemistry. And we're only seeming to demonize it when it's like in things that we we don't necessarily think are good, but you know, dopamine just means that I like a thing I'm not going to demonize dopamine. If I'm like getting into a hot tub and thinking like, oh, this is nice, I'd like to come back, right? Or like after a if I get a runner's high, people are not condemning the dopamine I get from that, right? But there are times where it's going to be the low hanging fruit of like, oh, I could you know eat something sugary or drink a latte or scroll my phone. And that is going to be an easier way of getting that, Dopamine. That is going to be an easier way of feeling. You know. If i, if I'm coming home and I want to feel autonomous and I know I can open Minecraft, that is going to be a lot easier and more accessible. And and I think it's important to tell kids and model for kids and teach kids when is that appropriate, right? Like if I am exhausted because I didn't sleep well, you know? Or I'm up with a sick kid and then the next day I'm like no, I can't go, get a latte Because that's the low hanging fruit I should. Have gone to bed earlier, like that's not going to help me, right? That's not going to help me be less tired, right? It sounds so absurd when they say that, like no, I'm I'm going to recognize, like Right now I need the low hanging fruit to get. Me through this. Like I need the latte and tonight I will go to bed earlier, right? Like they're not mutually exclusive, So there are times where the low hanging fruit might be. Appropriate. And it's important to identify those times because you know, one time my, my family was out in we were traveling, we were in a country that uses mostly train travel and we. Had spent all day out at this incredible park. I mean not a screen in sight, right? Like all day out as a family we get on the train to come home. We have like an hour probably on a couple of trains. And it was one of those moments where as a parent, like the moment we sat down, I was like, oh no, we've overspent like we we outstayed how much capacity our child had and we never. We typically did not like hand our child a screen on the train and this was a moment where I basically just like pulled out my phone and pulled out a game that I knew it wasn't going to amp them up. I knew they would engage with it, but I knew it would like kind of just keep an even keel and I just handed them my phone and that's the low hanging fruit in that. Instance, right? Because if the other, if the other option is like I don't know we're trying to play I spy and trying to. Occupy them while they are overtired and hungry and also were in a train car filled with hundreds. Of other people who are also trying to go about their lives, right? Like is that really better if I can say, but I didn't use a screen, but it's harder for me and my own nervous system it's harder arguably on the people around me and also frankly it means that I'm like comfortable putting my child in a position in which they might be having a hard time in public, like that doesn't feel good either and it's instead I could go to the low hanging fruit of like, okay, this screen is going to get us through this, so that then we can like have a smoother rest of our of our evening and that's exactly what happened then they were, they basically listened to music and they were kind of chill and then we managed to get off the train and go eat dinner and we all maintained our sanity. So sometimes recognizing you know what is this a time where the low hanging fruit is viable. And if not, is there something else I could try and it's not always going to be as satisfying immediately. And that's okay if that's what I have the bandwidth for, right? But sometimes what I need is the latte and if that's what I need then, okay, today I get the latte tonight I'll go to bed earlier, do you feel like?

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

Sometimes kids, especially older kids, maybe also need that. Like I'm giving the example of my thirteen year old. He comes home. From school and obviously, as you know a model mom, I would like to for him to do his homework first and then before he does he starts gaming. But maybe that's not. Maybe that's actually not how it works best for him. Yeah, that's We're trying to figure that

[Ash Brandon]

out, yeah, yeah, that's an excellent question and I'm so glad that you're trying to figure it out and not and not just assuming that one way is going to work, but I think it's important to think about yourself too of just a way of kind of humanizing not that we're dehumanizing our kids, But sometimes I think it's helpful to think about like, okay, well, can I come home from a long day at work and immediately go into cooking, dinner and doing laundry? Or like do I kind of need to put stuff down and take a minute? Or would I like to right? Would it help me if I did that? And for many of us, the answer is yes, many of us do come home and need a minute to decompress or we would like to put Netflix on or maybe we put on a show in the background to make the monotony of some of that household work more palatable. And that doesn't mean that we're delegitimizing the importance of doing laundry or whatever right? We're just trying to make it work for ourselves. But I think that's such an important thing you bring up because you know in not that many years your thirteen year old is going to. Be an adult and living independently and what do we want do we want our kids to grow up to be adults who are never using technology? I mean, this is not really possible. It's just not realistic. What I want is I want my kiddo to be able to know what works for them. And if I want that, then I have to be willing to kind of help them experiment with that now and figure out what works. And if that means that they know okay, I come home from a long day of school and what helps me is? I kind of I take a break and maybe eat something. And then I'm going to be able to start on the homework. Well, great. If that's going to work for them and be sustainable, then I want them to know that about themselves and it's hard as a parent to do that, because I think it feels like we are like condoning it. But we would rather that they figure that out with us than be trying to figure that out without our help. As an adult

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

I read in your book, I feel like you know I've been, I've been, I've been doing this for thirteen years. I'm very like open to technology, I'm very open to media and everything. But what I found out when I read your book is that I think what I've not been doing very well is being consistent and giving this framework that my kids know, okay, this is basically what we're dealing with and these are my boundaries and I would like to touch on that. Like really quickly that you had ABC. It's really, really easy to remember. I don't know, you might be a school teacher, a is for access and what stuck with me there is less is not always more. Because if we make it like this huge event or if screen time is something that. Is awarded or is something very, very special, then it gets awarded this specialness and what do we want, right? We would want that and go for it, right?

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah, often it ends up backfiring, because if most caregivers don't want screens to feel special and then the way that they kind of try to achieve that is by withholding them and then that can go to a place of what we call scarcity mindset, which is not knowing when I'm going to get something and so. When I don't know when I'm going to get something, I focus on it. I focus on it more. I mean, we've we've witnessed that in many things you know for scarcity is very much a thing. You know here at the beginning of the Covid pandemic, everyone was perceiving a scarcity of like hand sanitizer and toilet paper.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

Toilet paper, right?

[Ash Brandon]

Exactly. Even though there wasn't really a scarcity of those things and so, then everyone's hoarding them and so, because we're sort of worried that our kids will become preoccupied with screens, we withhold them. And then when we do give our kids screens, because it is scarce and not predictable, then our kids become more preoccupied with them and then we are like, oh my God, I was right because then they seem preoccupied and we're like I should withhold even more. And it's sort of this malicious cycle and it's hard to do the opposite of that, but the opposite is not have as much screen time as you want, right? Because that's putting them in control. That's not that's that's too much responsibility on them, but having a consistent relationship with screens, just meaning that they're another part of the day, meaning that you know when they're going to be available, there's a predictability to that in the same way that you know if my kid never knew when bedtime was, that would be very dysregulating if they never knew when dinner was going to be, if some days it's at four and some days it's at seven and I don't. Mean like because we have soccer practice and that's something I can predict if it was just randomly I was like well, now dinner's at five and tomorrow dinner's at six. Like that would also be really dysregulating. We generally like to know when things are going to happen, because then, like you said, we kind of know where the parameters are and then we can exist within those parameters. And so when screens or technology are more consistently available, that doesn't mean they're going to like that, but it means that then just as we hold boundaries around it's bedtime or dinner's in thirty minutes, no, you can't have a snack. We can hold boundaries around, It's not screen time right now. And just as they get used to the routine of bedtime and all the other things, the predictability of that can sort of reduce some of that preoccupation with like when will it happen?

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

Do you have specific recommendations? I know, you said, it's not about age, it's more about readiness to deal with screens, but do you have like people will ask you all the time right? What are your recommendations like? How much is too much or how can I tell if it is too much?

[Ash Brandon]

That is a big part of the that part of the ABCs of screen time is that. Sometimes, when we think of a problem with screens, like the ABC stand for access as you said, behavior and content, and those are three important things to consider, but there are also three things that are often sort of the pain points for people. And when I bring that up, most people will think like oh well, it's behavior like the problem is always behavior, right? Like I say, put the screen away. They don't put the screen away, that's behavior, but actually it could be different. It could be an access issue. It could be, you told them, they could have screens and it's been ten minutes and they. Can't stop. You know, it isn't necessarily behavior, it could be other things. So that part of the book is sort of like problem solving through how do. I figure out? What might be going on? And when it comes to amount of time, I mean, yes, we used to have those guidelines that were there and I think I understand why we want to go for something as simple as like an amount of time. You tell me the amount. But the problem with that is that you know, if I, if I say oh well, ages five to twelve an hour's fine, Cause that's what the guideline used to be. OK well, if you put on a thirty minute TV show for your child. And they are jumping up and down and jumping off the couch and they're yelling then I think it's easy for a caregiver to go wait a minute that was supposed to be fine. It's only thirty minutes and they're already acting like that. So what does that mean then? That must mean there's something wrong with my kid, There's something wrong with me right? It's easy to to that shame place and I think. Instead it helps to think about. Like is this working right? Like is this working for us? Because there are some kids who could probably watch an hour and a half of something and be completely fine and they could probably watch forty-five minutes of something. Else and be not fine and so I think it helps to look at like What is it I need like if I need an hour because I'm in a meeting or I'm putting a baby sibling down for a nap and I need a certain amount of time or I need them to be independently occupied. What's The type of screen time that's going to. Help me meet? That need for some kids it will be a TV show. For some kids it would not be a TV show because they'll just wander off. And for some kids it would actually be like a game on a tablet or a console. And after a certain amount of time is there something that's occurring, right? If they're getting dysregulated or loud or hyper whatever is, is that working? Is it something that you're able to? Then help them out of. And if you're like this is not going to work because you know, we have to be out of The House by Eight Thirty and Every Single. Time I tell them to turn it off. They're not turning it off and then we're in a meltdown and now we're late And like then perhaps that particular thing isn't going to work. And maybe it means that before we leave for school, we can't have Minecraft, because it's really hard to stop playing Minecraft, because it's open ended. So then we can't have Minecraft when we have to be up the door at a certain time, because it's hard to stop, but maybe we can substitute in something else that's easier to stop.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

How quickly would I, would I interpret it as it's not working, you know, because I think you wrote that too like you kind of like. If it's not working the first time, it's a skill they need to learn and like it's a skill. Yeah, they need to start to regulate themselves, right?

[Ash Brandon]

That's a good question. Because we do want both, right? We want them to be able to have that skill. I think it's Also asking like is this a skill? I currently have the capacity in this situation to teach, right? Because I mean, I use the analogy of the comparison of getting out of the house and that is very true for us as well. Where maybe I do want the people to stop that open ended thing, but we don't have the leeway in that moment for that to be the teaching opportunity. So while we're working on the skill of stopping in the middle of something, whether that's Minecraft or something else, maybe that's something that we save for you know. Maybe the afternoon where we're not leaving the house and then if it's hard to stop, we can work through that. But in the times where it is more important that we're done at a certain time, etcetera we're sticking to something that we know will be more successful. And in terms of like how long do I try that? I mean probably depends on the situation, right? If it's like we can't we have to be out the door at a certain. Time or it throws off our whole morning and everyone's late. I might not be able to try that that many times before I'm saying we have to go to something that's going to work more sustainably. And if it's a time where I have more flexibility, then maybe I can get more flexible with problem solving, but I think it's okay to think about what the need is.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

How do I navigate my own feelings around it? Like when my kid gets I don't know an hour of screen time and then I it's over, take it away, huge tantrum, nothing goes well, and then I feel like oh my gosh, my kid is so ungrateful. Now they got an hour of screen time and this is what I get for it.

[Ash Brandon]

Uh huh, yes, that's a feeling I can empathize with easily, really if not for screens for something else, right? Yeah, we've all been there a couple of things. One this will not necessarily make it easier, but I talk a lot about food and the and there's a division of responsibility model with food that Ellen Satter came up with that I talk about someone in the book. And essentially the model is, you know, a parent or a caregiver decides what is being served, and when you know what's on the plate. And when we're eating and a child decides how much to eat of what's available. So that might mean that they're eating, you know, three bites of chicken and a bite of roll, and then that's it. But that's their responsibility. And in her model, you know, an adult is not going to come in and say, eat five more bites and then there's, you know, because that's the kid's job. But that also means that the adult is not short order cooking something else. And when the meal's over, the meal's over. And if they didn't eat in that meal, then they're gonna wait for the next meal, right? Like there's boundaries there. The adult has a job, the child has a job. And when it comes to technology, I think it's very much the same that we decide what's available, and when like what content are we okay with and when are we okay with it? And for how long? And then a child decides what to do within that time that's available in terms of what they're doing in the content. But the other thing, which is true for both food and technology, is, that a child's job is also to decide, is also to have feelings about it. And unfortunately, they are really good at that particular part of their job, sometimes better at it than we would like when they are protesting and have a really hard time. It actually helps me to think about the game that they are playing. If you're assuming it's a game, because games are highly strict and leveled environments, right? Like if I, if I run into a wall in a game, right? I need to depend on the fact that it's going to not fall down, right? And if every one out of every one hundred times that I ran into a wall, it let me go through the wall and skip to the end and win. Then, what would I do? I'd run into the wall. I'd do it as many times as it took, right? I would do it a thousand times, because I would be like there's a chance, chance, right? And so unfortunately, in those moments, even though it's extremely hard, our kids are technically doing something that's within their responsibility. They're having feelings about the rules we've created and they're also seeing if those rules are going to be how they're being presented hard as that may be. The other thing to consider too is if a child is, you know, seemingly this light switch is flipping and they're going from completely fine to absolute meltdown. That to me is probably an indication that they somewhere along the way they actually were getting pretty dysregulated and they didn't realize it and or we didn't realize it. So that could also be an opportunity to try and embed some opportunities for regulation along the way, so whatever I mean people know their kids, but that could mean like providing an opportunity for some movement, like sitting in a swing or like a wobble board or sitting on a yoga ball, like providing some opportunities for regulation or like pausing and running and getting a drink of water and then coming back, like putting in some opportunities to regulate So that ending is not quite as abrupt for their

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

nervous system and it's probably probably, also depends on what game they're playing absolutely right. If they have to like complete a challenge or they're in the middle of a race, I would probably want them. They I could understand that they would get really upset if I just, you know flipped the switch mid mid race,

[Ash Brandon]

well totally like if I were doing laundry and I was like, I don't know, like moving the wet clothes into the dryer right before we left the house, right? And my partner came over and was like no, we have to go right now, right? Like stop right now I'd be like I can't leave half the clothes in the washer, right? And I know that feels more necessary than what's happening on a screen. But I think so that feeling of like stopping in the middle of something is hard, right? And that's why again the neutrality is helpful, because if I think about the skill, the skill is not necessarily screen exclusive, the skill might be stopping in the middle of something or winding down. So I do give some strategies around that, in particular of, if maybe it's having a timer or having a warning of like we have x minutes. One thing I like a lot for open ended things like Minecraft. Is to ask a question like how will you know when you're done? Or like, what is the last thing you're going to do today to help them Kind of see a way to transition out of what they're doing. Another version of that that's kind of the opposite is what I call the sticky note trick, which is to ask them like what are you going to start with tomorrow? Like when you come back to this what's the first thing you're going to do and I literally write it on a sticky note and stick it on the controller right or somewhere that they'll see it because it's essentially just pressing pause on what they're doing and then they can come back and pick up right where they left off. Because a lot of kids in open ended things, especially neurodivergent kids, if they step away, they really will forget what they were doing and then when they come back, it's like they have to chase their brain for like twenty minutes and then their time's halfway done and then. They're frustrated again And so just knowing like, oh, I'm going to come back and do this that sort of offloads that responsibility so they can stop thinking about it and then makes it a lot easier to come back to tomorrow because they know exactly what they're coming back to.

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[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

And they can look forward to it exactly. Yeah, speaking about time, I know we have already almost run out of time too. I hope we can touch on the sea for a small moment the content and there's some examples that I would like to touch on. Just like get your opinion on them because I know They're much discussed and like one of them is Minecraft. We talked about that and then I think another other two that are feared or talked about are Roblox and Fortnite. Yeah, so my kids so full disclosure my kids play both and but not without rules in place and like lots of supervision. But especially Roblox is, I mean yeah, it can get very bad. I think so I kind of want your advice on that.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah, I mean so talking about Roblox, as if it is like one thing. It's not right. It's it's like. It's like when people refer to YouTube and I'm like well, you know, PBS is on YouTube, right? Like I could I can watch you know national parks showing waterfalls on YouTube or I can watch complete garbage, right? It's kind of like saying TV right as if it's like a monolith. So Roblox is essentially the YouTube of Gaming. It is a user content generated platform that has, I mean tens of thousands of games and there are many things that I dislike about Roblox as a platform. I mean many more than we have time for, but in terms of like allowing kids access to it, it's more about you're allowing kids access to things that you that there's a lot a lot of lack of control over like a lack of oversight because they are user generated and user user created. So if that's something that families are wanting to give access to, they do have parental controls, they are not as robust as I think they should be. There are things I definitely dislike about them. I wish that you could have like a list of like approved games and that's all that they can see instead they let you block games. But I mean that's like impossible because there's so many of them you can like limit the kinds. Of content they can see. But again that doesn't stop a game from just being like bad or maybe not having violence, but still somehow not feeling appropriate to you. So I would for families who are wondering about like should I allow access to this? The thing that I would really be thinking about is am I okay with my child? Seeing things that are you know, not being professionally curated. You know, am I okay with my child? Seeing things that are made by other by strangers and if the answer is no, then maybe it's something that is allowed only you know indirect eyesight, you know like I am I'm able to hear and see what's happening like my child has played a couple of games in Roblox, there's one. In particular they like, I don't particularly care for it, but it's fine right? Like there's nothing I object to morally, but they're playing it on the television, when, when an adult is in view right with one. Of us around. And it's not because I don't trust my child, it's because I don't trust the platform and I don't really trust other people more than anything. So if a child is begging for those things, the first when my child was begging for Roblox, the first question I asked was, what games are you even wanting to play? Because I knew enough to know like Roblox is not a game. So if they're asking for that thing, I think it helps to just ask like why, like what is it? You're wanting to do what is it? You're interested in because. Then if they can give you at least like something, then if you're able to play it on your own and I know many adults will go like I can't do that well, your kid won't know how to play it either and they'll figure it out. So and if you try it first, you will probably learn pretty quickly in the first few minutes, you know? Is it always bugging me to buy something? Is it always bugging me to talk to other people? Is it you know using language and I'm not okay with, I mean, you're gonna figure that out pretty fast. And then you can probably answer your own question about whether or not you're okay with it pretty quickly. And then along the way, if they're asking for other things or if you're noticing that there's things in there that could be skills you could work on? Then maybe that's a way you could talk about it, like knowing what's okay to say to a stranger for example, because they're gonna interact with strangers in real life and also potentially through games like that or other places online. Oh, and sorry, Fortnite, my cautionary thing with Fortnite, although it's less like this now than it was and Roblox is also can also be like this. People assume that the problem with Fortnite is guns. In my opinion, that's not actually the problem. In my opinion. The thing to be cautious of which I do talk about in that chapter is what's called free to play games free to play mechanics, which many games and apps in app marketplaces are free to play. Many adults are quick to say yes to those, because they're free. But that means that if you're not paying for it, they're, they're getting paid somehow and often that's through microtransactions, meaning that the game is not actually meant to be intrinsically motivating or fun unless you're going to pay and so then it feels a little bit more like gambling, because it's like, oh, buy this and then you'll have more fun now. Buy this and you'll have more fun. Or it's gonna be very ad dependent and ads are. Not well regulated. So ads could be for inappropriate things, they could be for other games that are of a similar design. So when it comes to free to play games, they often incentivize things like logging in every day or using a lot so again, I think it helps even if you can just download the game and open it, like set up a profile that could be your child and just see like how is the game? Interacting with your child and ask like is this something that my kid is ready for? Like has the kind of cognitive ability to navigate and if not, is it something? I am prepared to help them navigate and if the answer is no, then, okay, maybe we withhold that for now until that is something that I am ready to take on, because it's more the sort of predatory mechanics of ads and microtransactions that I think can be a problem in those platforms.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

Yeah, I think technology is one thing. Then there's peer pressure on the other side, right? Totally, my friends are playing it, my friends have this new skin, My friend has that totally. It's this whole thing of belonging and being part of the group that totally comes into it. Yeah, totally.

[Ash Brandon]

And we have to help our kids navigate that in so many ways of like all of my kids or all of my friends are seeing this movie, All of my friends are allowed to stay up till this late. All of my friends have this clothing item, All of my friends are allowed to go to such and such a place without an adult. Right, that is unfortunately a constant of parenting that is not necessarily specific to technology. So we have to navigate that in many parts of parenting. And I think it is not necessarily different when it comes to technology and helping your kid through like. Yeah, different families have different rules. That's a hard thing. Whether it's technology or something else.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

Do you have one game in particular that you love and where you think? Oh, I really want to recommend this

[Ash Brandon]

one in particular, or like, okay, I think that most adults, if they don't play games, they probably have a very specific idea of what a video game is. And the reality is that there are so many games that are very different from what many adults would assume. And I would really encourage an adult to try a game that is maybe different than what they would think. And because it'll probably broaden your lens. So you know, because of, because of the current state of the world, I'm going to recommend a couple in particular, there's a creator whose name is Lucas Pope and he's made some absolutely incredible games. A couple are available online, they used to be free online. I think now you might have to pay for them, but they are inexpensive and worth it. So he he's made a web-based game called the Republic of Times, which is about you are the editor of a newspaper in an authoritarian government and you have to decide what gets published and what doesn't and how does that impact the political trajectory of your country? I use that game in another like it when I taught social studies, because there's a lot to pull from that. Obviously another game he made is called Papers, please. And it's very similar to the Oregon Trail. Like you're, you're the interface of it is very similar and you are a border agent deciding who gets to. Enter the country and you get paid based on whether or not, you let in the right people. But sometimes you get refugees at your border and do you let them in? And how will that affect you? How will that affect them? How does that affect your country? So lots of great conversations to be had there. And then his last game, which is one of my favorite games I've ever played, probably more for adults or like teens, is called Return of the Obra Din. And you are a insurance adjuster who is trying to decide how much money you pay out for this doomed expedition, like this doomed shipping expedition and the boat has come back and everyone is dead and you are going through and going to like the last moments of all of these people's lives, to see what happened at the moment of their death and trying to piece together what happened and who they were. So you can decide like who was responsible and who should get paid out and you're unraveling this mystery. Kind of asynchronously in time and it is one of those games where only one person is in control, but everybody in the room is going to be trying to figure out and contribute and talk about what's happening. And it's I think a very different experience than most people would think in terms of what a video game is or what a video game can be and that I think could be really eye opening for people. So games by Lucas Pope. Another similar one is called what Remains of Edith Finch and it's about a girl going back to her family's estate and everyone in her family had an untimely death and she's sort of like revisiting these moments from their lives and it's very poignant and touching and it takes about two hours to play the whole thing. It's kind of like the length of a movie. So sometimes just having experience with a game yourself might just sort of reframe how you feel about them.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

Thank you so much for these recommendations and thank you also for taking the time to talk to me in this very turbulent time, where our thoughts are elsewhere quite quite. But sometimes it's I mean that's one thing gaming can help with or screen time can help with, right? It can also give us some relief or like some time away from reality, right?

[Ash Brandon]

I mean back to the low hanging fruit, You know, I've mentioned this several times, but you know, when I'm in a really like anxious place and I'm. Just like churning away on something, you know, some people will say like oh I'm gonna watch like great British bake off or something you. Know, comforting and I cannot do that because my brain is like, oh we can still churn like we can still catastrophize while you're watching the cake, right? My brain is like we can do two things at once. I have to instead I have learned that the thing that helps me is watching Jackass movies and it's because. I have to pay attention because otherwise it won't make any sense and it immediately makes me laugh. It is surprising. And therefore I can't like continue to churn about whatever I'm thinking about and normally it only takes me like twenty or thirty minutes and then I'm like, okay, now i, now I probably could engage in a more sustainable coping strategy, like going on a walk or reading a book. But back to the low hanging fruit. You know, there's times where if I'm catastrophizing about how are we gonna pay rent or is my. Child safe to go to school? Or you know, are my neighbors safe? Etcetera. If someone came up to me and was like, why don't you do some yoga? I'd be like get out of my face, right? That would not be a sustainable strategy in that moment, right? So sometimes a distraction is actually the appropriate strategy like I do. Sometimes I do need to distract myself because of things, right? Either the world or my own life. Etcetera. In the same way that, if my kid's getting a vaccine at the doctor, if they're screaming and having a hard time, because they're scared, that's not the moment for me to be like. Let me explain to you the importance of vaccines, right? That actually might be a time for me to be like Let's watch Elmo on my phone for two minutes, right? Because actually that is the appropriate tool for the job. So it's okay. Sometimes, if we're figuring out, sometimes I do need to distract. I don't want to distract forever. But can I distract to the point where now I can engage in something more sustainable. Okay, then that actually was helpful. It like bridged me over into something, that's, that's more sustainable. So if people are in that particular state of their lives, right now I hope you can find a distraction that helps you through this to something else.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

And I hope the last hour was a good distraction. It was for me at least. Thank you. Thank you so much for taking the time for all of your advice. We have your book in our store. Oh, thank you. It can be bought there in Switzerland. If you're outside of Switzerland, you might go to Ash's website and buy it there.

[Ash Brandon]

Yes, yes, you can. Yes, or yeah, whatever kind of marketplaces available to you in the US we have like bookshop, which benefits like independent bookstores. If there's an equivalent of that where you are then absolutely. Or if it's available through a public library system that benefits everybody so perfect.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

Thank you so much to everybody listening. If you can give this podcast a like. Or if you can give a review that would really help us a lot and thank you so much for listening. Everybody who does not know us. We are a website for equality in parenting. We're called mal ehrlich. Which means let's be honest in Swiss or in German. And yeah, thank you so much for listening and thank you so much for talking. To me and giving me so much good advice, Ash.

[Ash Brandon]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

Aber vielleicht magst du noch lernen oder liken.

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[Host of Mal Ehrlich Podcast]

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