#155 - CHRISSY TEIGEN AND JOHN LEGEND ON “THE BUDDY SYSTEM”

Summary

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Man of the Year – Ep. #155: CHRISSY TEIGEN AND JOHN LEGEND ON “THE BUDDY SYSTEM”

Podcast: Man of the Year – Champions of Friendship
Hosts: Matt Ritter & Aaron Karo
Guests: Chrissy Teigen & John Legend
Release Date: October 23, 2025

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Overview

In this bonus crossover episode, Matt Ritter and Aaron Karo, hosts of the Man of the Year podcast, appear on Chrissy Teigen’s Audible original, Self Conscious, with special guest John Legend. The group dives deep into the “friendship recession,” the importance of male friendships, barriers men face in maintaining close relationships, and practical strategies for nurturing social fitness. Candid, humorous, and at times vulnerable, the conversation blends research-backed insights with relatable anecdotes, culminating in a live "mandate" exercise designed to equip listeners with actionable steps for supporting their partners’ friendships.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

The Friendship Recession & Its Impact

• Modern Male Loneliness: Chrissy opens with a striking observation about how many men, including her husband John, claim to have friends but lack close connections for real emotional support.
  • "He says he has friends. He texts someone about fantasy football once a week… but let's be real. He doesn't have anyone he can call when he's sad or mad or scared… and definitely not when he's crying in his car at Costco parking lot because life is hard and nobody ever asks how he’s doing." (Chrissy, 03:18)
• Health Risks: Chronic loneliness, particularly in men, is connected to increased risk for depression, substance abuse, and early death.
• Gender Disparities: Chrissy contrasts women's active social maintenance with men's tendency to “bottle it all up,” leading to emotional spill-over onto partners.

Tradition, Ritual, and the “Man of the Year” Trophy

• Matt and Aaron describe their 22-year ritual: a pre-Thanksgiving steakhouse dinner with the same nine friends to award a tongue-in-cheek “Man of the Year” trophy, providing a powerful anchor for lifelong connection.
  • “Taking the guesswork out of friendship… We know where we're going to be 50 years from now, if we're alive.” (Matt, 07:19)
  • “In your 40s, to have a friend group where you're doing a 22-year now tradition, it's pretty rare. So then we started reverse engineering. What did we do right?” (Matt, 08:30)

Why Male Friendships Fizzle in Adulthood

• “Falling Offs” vs. Falling Outs: Men seldom have dramatic friend breakups; relationships more often simply fade away.
  • “Men don't have falling outs, they have falling offs… nothing bad happened, just never speak to them again.” (Aaron, 13:13)
• Loss of Structure: After high school or college, life stops handing men ready-made social groups.
• Mobility & Remote Work: Increased moving and remote opportunities disrupt friendship continuity.
• Technology as Both Bridge & Barrier: Group chats and texts help men feel connected, but replace deeper, face-to-face interactions.
  • “We have a rubric… text once a week, call once a month, see IRL once a quarter.” (Matt, 13:59)

Vulnerability, Masculinity, and “Saying I love you”

• Hosts and guests discuss stigma around male emotional vulnerability. Aaron and Matt routinely end pods expressing platonic love for each other despite pushback.
  • “I started saying I love you to… a few of my male friends and it felt different… but it felt like it was right, though, too.” (John, 11:06)
  • “I think that is alpha male stuff… to go up to your buddy and say, I love you. That’s masculine.” (Matt, 11:34)
• Tip: Start with gratitude—“Thank you”—as a “gateway emotion” toward saying ‘I love you.’ (Aaron, 12:16)

The “Best Friend” Conundrum in Marriage

• Chrissy asks if being one’s spouse’s best friend is enough. Matt and Aaron firmly say no: a wide friendship base is critical for both partners' well-being.
  • “It’s putting too much pressure on any person… Why should one person have to carry all the weight of everything?” (Aaron, 15:23)

The Role of Wives and Partners

• Modeling and Encouragement: When women maintain their own friendships and model positive behavior, it inspires men to follow suit.
• Clearing the Path: Sometimes partners need to remind or even enable their husbands to reconnect with friends.
• Addressing Guilt: John expresses the common guilt men feel spending leisure time away from family after being gone for work. Chrissy encourages him, highlighting the benefits for everyone.

Trust, Toxic Friendships, and Social Fitness

• Trust: Strong, established trust between spouses is central to supporting independent friendships.
  • “For a lot of this to work, the man has to be good at building trust with his wife so that she doesn’t feel away every time he's out of her sight.” (John, 22:04)
• Toxic Friends: The group discusses how to identify and handle negative influences and the value of “friendship inventory.”
  • “Friendships don’t have to last forever… There’s inertia in maintaining unhealthy friendships.” (Matt, 26:40)

Making New Friends as an Adult

• Practical Strategies:
  • Leverage ‘warm leads’—ask existing friends and relatives if they know anyone in your new city.
  • Expand your network through friends-of-friends — “already pre-vetted.”
  • Find a “third place,” a regular social venue distinct from home and work (e.g., gym, recurring event, poker night).
  • Hosting is a viable option for celebrities or anyone uncomfortable with traditional venues.
• Mindset Shift:
  • Focus on process over pressure; build habits that support repeated, organic connection.

The “Mandate” Toolkit: A Step-by-Step Guide

Live, on-air, Matt and Aaron walk Chrissy and John through their signature “mandate” protocol:

1. Pick the Target: Chrissy selects Luke (her manager) as John’s potential L.A. friend.
2. Clear the Path: Chrissy pre-coordinates with Luke and his wife, removing logistical obstacles.
3. No Excuses: Chrissy plans her own night out with friends, leaving John no option but to go out.
4. Active, Not Passive: Schedule a specific activity, not an open-ended, “We should hang out.”
5. Go Deeper: Encourage more than surface conversation—ask about life, family, and personal well-being.
6. Follow Up: Afterward, debrief and schedule the next meet-up before inertia sets in.

Notably, this exercise is designed to be a scaffold, eventually empowering the man to initiate on his own.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chrissy (On common male loneliness):
  • “Your husband doesn’t have any friends... And here’s the thing. It's not just sad. It's actually dangerous.” (03:18)
• Matt (On ritual):
  • “We know where we're going to be 50 years from now, if we're alive. It’s going to be at Peter Luger's the Tuesday before Thanksgiving, arguing about who had the best year.” (07:19)
• Aaron (On “falling off”):
  • “Men don't have falling outs, they have falling offs.” (13:13)
• John (On learning to say I love you):
  • “I started saying I love you to, like, a few of my male friends and it felt different… but it felt like it was right, though, too.” (11:06)
• Aaron (Making new friends in new cities):
  • “First step… just moved to LA… you’re going to say two words: ‘know anyone?’” (29:24)
• Matt (Defining friendship):
  • “Showing up. That’s all you need to do to be a good friend… if you show up, you’re a good friend.” (33:55)
• Chrissy (Mandate exercise):
  • “I’m going to get you into golf, though, and then I’m gonna lose you every Sunday.” (39:39)
• Matt (At the close):
  • “At the end of the day, he’s happy, you’re happy, your relationship has more oxygen… This is emotional maturity. This is what love looks like.” (43:43)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:18 – Chrissy’s powerful introduction on male friendship crisis
• 07:07 – “Man of the Year” tradition explained
• 11:06–11:34 – John and Matt on saying “I love you” to male friends
• 13:15 – Differentiating “falling offs” from real friendship breakups
• 13:59 – Friendship rubric: “TCs” (text, call, see)
• 14:27–15:44 – Why spouses can’t be your only friend (and how wives often email the show desperately)
• 16:59–18:48 – John and Chrissy discuss the challenges of making time for male friends amid career and family
• 22:04 – John on trust and managing independence in relationships
• 26:40 – Toxic friendships and annual “friendship inventory”
• 28:41 – Matt cites Harvard study: friendship as a predictor of lifespan
• 29:07–32:13 – How adults can make new friends and build social structure
• 34:42–44:00 – Live “mandate” exercise with John & Chrissy
• 43:55 – Matt’s closing advice: “It’s never too late” for friendship

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Takeaways & Action Steps

For Listeners:

• Understand that loneliness in adulthood — especially for men — is a crisis with real consequences.
• Ritualize friendship: anchor key traditions in your social calendar.
• Encourage open expressions of affection and gratitude in male friendships.
• Partners should support, not compete with, outside friendships — it benefits everyone.
• Periodically review your social circle for health and reciprocity — prune as needed.
• Making new friends requires intention and regular opportunity—leverage warm leads, third places, and hosting.
• Try the “mandate” method: proactively set up friend time for your partner (or for yourself).
• Showing up, both in celebration and struggle, is the ultimate currency of true friendship.

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“At the end of the day, he’s happy, you’re happy, your relationship has more oxygen… This is what love looks like.”

— Matt Ritter (43:43)

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Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the number one friendship podcast in the country. I'm Aaron Caro.

[B]

I'm Matt Ritter.

[A]

Guys, this is our most special bonus episode ever. Our Audible original, the Buddy System, A modern man's guide to mastering friendship is out right now. Matt, do you remember the URL.

[B]

Audible.Com/The buddy system.

[A]

That's right. Audible.com thebuddy system. Whatever else Matt has said in previous episodes is wrong. Guys, we're so excited about this. Matt and I recorded this a few months ago and it is basically a hilarious self help guide to help you make and maintain friends.

[B]

And guess what, guys, we got to do all kinds of fun things for. We did a bunch of press, we talked to a bunch of really interesting people, and we've got a surprise for you. We went on Chrissy Teigen's podcast called Self Conscious to talk about friendship and we had such a great time and she thought it was such a great idea that you know who she brought on with her? John Legend.

[A]

John mother effing legend for the first time ever. First time her husband's ever appeared on her pod ever.

[B]

You know why? Because like everybody else, he needs help making friends too.

[A]

So very surprising, Very interesting listening to them talk about friendship. Like, what's the line? Celebrities, they're just like us.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, they have, they have issues with, with friendship, you know, how to make them, how to maintain them as adults. And it was just fascinating to get to know them. They're really amazing, fascinating people. I'm sure you know, some of you know a lot about them or maybe not so much, but we learned a ton and I thought we had some really great breakthroughs just talking about friendship and know what to do in. In those situations. If you're Chrissy or you're John. And it was just a really fun time. I have to say.

[A]

I was telling a story the other day. So some of you may know that Matt and I are pen alums and we were on the COVID of the Penn alumni magazine. John Legend also went to Penn. I was there with him.

[B]

Not on the COVID Not on the.

[A]

COVID On the COVID So we brought a copy of the Penn Alumni magazine and we were like, have you ever been on the COVID He goes, no, I've only been people's sexiest man alive.

[B]

Yeah. So I'll take the Gazette.

[A]

Yeah, Honestly, I'd rather take people. I'd rather take people. But Christie's podcast is amazing. Self Conscious, also on Audible, part of the Audible family. And we're going to be playing that in our feed right now. But before we get there, we just want to thank you guys for supporting us. The Audible Original is out now, and we want to hear Matt. We want to hear what people think of it.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, we've. We put years of work into it, so now it's out there for the world. I know that it's going to be valuable to people wherever you are in your friendship journey. So without further ado, why don't we just let you guys hear us talk to John and Chrissy about friendship?

[A]

Yes. I love it. Last Plugs, Audible.com the Buddy System, ManOfTheirPodcast.com and Self Conscious from Chrissy Teigen on Audible. Chrissy and John Teigen, John Tegan, Chrissy.

[B]

Teigen and John Legend. This was amazing.

[A]

Take it away.

[C]

You're listening to Self Conscious with Chrissy Teigen, an Audible original podcast. Join me as we explore the cutting edge of health, wellness, and personal growth with the world's leading experts and thinkers. From inspiring stories to actionable insights, our conversations aim to help you lead a healthier, happier, and more productive life. Okay, listen up, ladies. We need to talk about something awkward and weirdly dangerous. Your husband doesn't have any friends. He says he has friends. He texts someone about fantasy football once a week. He's in a group chat called the Dudes that mostly sends memes in silence. Maybe he has a poker night once a year, but let's be real. He doesn't have anyone he can call when he's sad or mad or scared. And definitely not when he's crying in his car Costco parking lot because life is hard and nobody ever asks how he's doing. And here's the thing. It's not just sad. It's actually dangerous. Studies show that loneliness in men is a huge risk factor for depression, substance abuse, and early death. So while we're all out here journaling and meditating and calling our best friends from third grade to scream about something that happened in Target, they are just bottling it all up. And guess who they end up dumping it on? Yep, it's us. So today on Self Conscious, we're diving into why men are so bad at friendship. What the hell happened to male bonding? And why helping your partner build and maintain strong friendships isn't just generous, it's self preservation. Joining me are Matt Ritter and Erin Caro. For the past 22 years. On the Tuesday before Thanksgiving, Matt and Aaron, along with a group of nine lifelong friends, gather at Peter Luger Steakhouse in Manhattan to decide who will be chosen as man of the Year. And what started as a joke became the glue that kept their crew strong for decades. Inspiring man of the Year, America's number one friendship podcast, and their new audible original, the Buddy System. It might just save your man and your relationship. Matt Ritter. Erin Caro, welcome to Self Conscious. I thought I should invite the world's loneliest man. We could say you're not a lonely man, but I wanted a male perspective. I wanted to hear from John, because this topic of male friendships, I think is something that John thinks is really interesting.

[D]

Just to be clear, I'm John Legend, Chrissy's husband.

[C]

Oh, sorry. Yes.

[D]

So she knows me very well.

[C]

People's man of the Year.

[D]

At one point, I was sexiest man of the. Whatever you guys wrote about male friendship. But I think in general, there's a lot of discussion now about the crisis among men and loneliness and isolation. And just men seem to be not in a great spot right now. So it's so cool that you wrote a book addressing it and thinking about it.

[C]

Yeah. And they're here. We're going to talk about their audible original, the Buddy System. But I think it's really cool we have guys talking about this. I think that's step one. Right.

[B]

We are very excited to be here. I'm Matt Ritter.

[A]

This is Aaron K. Road. And the genesis of why all of us are talking right now is that me and Matt are part of the world's greatest friendship tradition. I met Matt in second grade. We grew this group of nine over the next few years. And then after college, we all dispersed across the country. And we started a tradition. Every year on the Tuesday before Thanksgiving, the nine of us all fly in for wherever we live now. And we have dinner at Peter Luger's in Brooklyn. Very famous old steakhouse.

[D]

It's perfect scheduling. Cause you're going home to see your family anyway.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

That's what they talk about, too, how it's really actually to have rituals and traditions, because then you're literally putting your friendship on the calendar.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Taking the guesswork out of friendship, we call it. We know where we're going to be 50 years from now, if we're alive. It's going to be at Peter Luger's the Tuesday before Thanksgiving, arguing about who had the best year.

[D]

How did you choose Peter Luger's?

[A]

So it initially started as a friends giving dinner, and we were saying who had the best year. Now Matt and I talk a lot about the different types of friends in our friend group. I'm the historian so I've got all the photos. So I started writing down who won this completely made up thing Mat had the best year in 2009. And then we got a gigantic trophy, which if your listeners see on on social, it's like half a Stanley Cup. It's called the man of the Year trophy.

[D]

First dinner, no award.

[B]

Yeah, it evolved.

[A]

It evolved.

[C]

I think what's so cool is that in your book and then with your podcast, you guys talk about friendship in a way that seems like you're therapists or like sociologists or something. How did you know that you would be really good at this? You talk about it and you talk about numbers. What do you guys say? 15% of guys have zero close friends. That I have completely zero close friends. And you've done the research and you've actually looked into how this can really affect society as a whole and how bad it's getting lately.

[B]

You know what's funny about it is we backed into this pod, we were talking three years ago of like, we should start a pod together, just two comedians, and we're like, what are we good at? And there was this trophy staring us in the face. And so this happened very organically. We would have the Luger's dinner and the weeks leading up to it, strangers or friends of friends would start going, hey, who's going to win this year? And they got all invested. And the one thing we would always hear from guys, man, I wish I did something like that. I wish I had a friend group like that. Because in your 40s, to have a friend group where you're doing a 22 year now tradition, it's pretty rare. So then we started reverse engineering. What did we do right to have this friend group? And that's sort of how we became therapists and researchers in the field. But we continually learn from our listeners and, you know, know, we're always like soliciting from people like, oh, what are you seeing in your friend group that works?

[D]

Well, a lot of people are talking about men in different ways. You got like, Scott Galloway's talking about it a lot about the crisis among young men. Then you've got Jonathan Haidt and those guys with the anxious generation talking about men and women, but different issues that both genders face because of the same thing, which is like technology and smartphones and social media and video games or whatever it is, online porn, all these things that are causing this generation of young people social and psychological problems.

[B]

Yeah, they're chronically online. They're not getting together as much in real Life like kids aren't, you know, just out playing with their friends, riding bikes, doing all this stuff, and they're not coming out into the world with the social skills that we probably came into the world with. But again, I think people don't realize that friendship is, again, it's like a muscle. It's a habit. If you thought about it that way, you would put it in your to do list in your daily life as opposed to just some luxury that, oh, if I have a couple of good friends, great. Like, you're going to have to work at it. And I think high school, college, you have them and then suddenly you don't. That's a really hard kind of thing that just falls off.

[C]

I think that where we're at right now too is being an alpha male is really celebrated. And it's almost like I can see a bunch of those dudes thinking that male friendship is like little bit shit or something. Can't you see that?

[B]

We get a lot of that, a little bit of hate online about that for being vulnerable. People think saying I love you. We say I love you at the end of each pod. That's weak. It's the opposite.

[D]

First of all, that's beautiful.

[B]

It is.

[D]

I love you at the end of it. I started saying I love you to, like, a few of my male friends and it felt different.

[C]

I didn't know that.

[D]

Like, I'll say it's a.

[C]

Well, you'll say, love you, man.

[D]

No, I'll say love you.

[B]

That's okay. That counts. That counts. That counts. Giving them full credit.

[D]

But it feels like something I didn't used to say ever to any dude ever. And to anyone other than my wife. But it felt like it was right, though, too.

[B]

I never said it to my friends until I was 40. Yeah, I couldn't do it.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

For whatever reason, I would hear people say it and it felt trivial. And I think that's what a lot of guys think. It feels trivial or feels weak or whatever. I think it's really courageous and tough. I think that is alpha male stuff to be able to go up to your buddy and say, I love you. That's masculine.

[C]

I look at that and maybe 20 years ago I wouldn't have thought this way, but I think it's so confident and cool and sexy to be that way. I really do. I love the I love you shit. I love it.

[A]

We do have a tip or a hack for your listeners to share with their spouses or partners, the men in their lives, if they want to tell their buddy that they love them, but they're not ready for it. So me and Matt recommend you love this.

[D]

The way you let into that's so funny.

[A]

Me and Matt recommend you start with thank you. Thank you for the ride, thank you for the beer. Thank you for being a good friend. Work your way up to it. If you say thanks as a gateway emotion, once you're telling your friends what you're grateful for, it's a short jump to I love you.

[D]

Oh, that's sweet.

[C]

Thank you, man. Yeah, I love a good I love you, bro. Then tell me what is holding men back from maintaining or making close friendships in adulthood?

[A]

First of all, I think we need to recognize that we were handed friends on a silver platter our entire lives until high school or college, like in the dorm play dates. And now you're just floating through life without any of the skills. And we should also mention that men aren't naturally very good at these tasks. Making plans, keeping in touch. We have so many listeners and readers who are like, oh, yeah, my buddy Jim, haven't talked to him in five years. And we say, men don't have falling outs, they have falling offs. Yeah, nothing bad happened.

[D]

That's fair.

[A]

Just never speak to them again.

[B]

I would also add, you know what he's talking about this surface area problem. You graduate college, that's the first time you're not all, like, rowing in the same direction like what you were talking about. You had those buddies at your first job, and then after that, you're no longer living in the same city. We move more than we ever did. Right. The mobility issue, Covid, remote work. All. All of these hurdles have created a world where you have to actually go out and put in the work to make and maintain these friendships. They're not just floating around everywhere.

[D]

But does technology also give you kind of a cop out? Because you can group chat your friends all the time. You don't actually set up the IRL type of meetups that you would have to have done before.

[B]

We have a rubric that we instituted that you guys could steal, your listeners could steal. We call tcs, text, call C text once a week, call once a month, see IRL once a quarter. You should be doing these things for your inner circle, that bare minimum.

[C]

So a lot of women in marriages will say, I'm his best friend. You guys think that is actually enough for somebody?

[B]

Absolutely not. Look, I think it's great your wife should be your partner and like, yes, your best friend. But also, does she watch six hours of John Claude Van Damme movies or World War II documentaries or, like, just in general. I think it's always healthy to have other significant others in your life. Why should one person have to carry all of the weight of everything that's going on in your life at all times?

[A]

It's interesting. When we started the podcast, we didn't think this was gonna be. So the number one email that we get is from a woman who's married to or dating a man, and the man has no friends. And they're like, get my husband out of the house.

[C]

Wow.

[D]

There's been a couple movies based on this premise. The one.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I love you, man.

[A]

I love you, man.

[D]

I love you, man.

[B]

I love you, man.

[C]

But then what's the Kevin Hart one? The higher.

[D]

Oh, yes. And then Tim Robinson just did a new one, which got really interesting.

[A]

We haven't seen it.

[D]

Paul Rudd's in it too.

[C]

The go to best friend.

[D]

He's the male friend target for both.

[A]

It's just like women and wives are not meant to be your primary care physician, your therapist, your sports. Exactly. It's putting too much pressure on any person. And that's why Matt brought up Oso's other significant others. It's fine for your husband to be your best friend, but he needs other friends. It's not healthy for you.

[B]

It's also not a threat for him to have other friends. Right. It's not detrimental. It's a positive that he has other.

[D]

Outlets, as long as they're not all single.

[C]

What's the best thing a woman can do to encourage her partner to invest in his friendships?

[A]

First of all, modeling good friendship behavior. So if you have good friends and you're seeing them and you're making plans and you're coming home energized, that will seep into the husband's brain. That's number one. You talk about double dates now. Again, I can't speak to this because I'm single, but going out with another couple and then encouraging, hey, maybe you should break up.

[C]

You also can't keep fucking up. Like when you're out with your guy friends, then if you're gonna have friends. And then all the time you're, we're texting at 4am we don't know where you are. Like, what's happening? Where are you? Are you safe? What's happening? That mistake can't happen.

[B]

They need to be the right friends. They definitely need to be the right friends. But also, sometimes a spouse or wife or girlfriend needs to remind the man who's not doing any socializing, that he has friends and that he enjoys spending time with them. A lot of men just forgot that they enjoy spending or just they don't have the rhythm, they don't have the structure, and they need a little help.

[D]

And sometimes it's just hard because I'm gone for work a lot. And then when I'm actually home, it's like, I should commit most of my available time to my wife and my kids. I feel like I should do that. And I want to do it because I miss them and I've been gone for a while and like, the idea of me going out for golf for four hours with a dude, it feels a bit like, undeserved. Un.

[C]

I know. And this just got very real for us right now in a way, because, like, I know that when you go to New York, you're gonna go to dinner with those guys out here in Los Angeles. You don't have that. It's not the same. You don't have a group of friends that, like, you're maybe gonna tell me, like, hey, babe, I'm gonna go out to dinner with the guys at seven o' clock tonight. That doesn't happen. It's always a work thing or it's me, and I don't want you to have to. I can watch Bravo by myself. Like, I'm totally fine. But I wish you had that group of guys that are in New York, in Los Angeles. Maybe we should make that a thing.

[A]

I thought you were gonna say the opposite. That you actually like the fact that he.

[C]

Oh, no, I would like him to have that. I think it'd be good.

[B]

Yeah. And it's funny, a lot of guys fall on either extreme of the spectrum. It's like they have those guys that they go all out with, like 4am or they never go out. They just. What they really need is that healthy balance. And what you're talking about, that guilt that you feel. It's valid. You should be there for your wife and child first and foremost. But you show up better for them when you have a healthy friendship circle.

[C]

I mean, we have childcare as well. Like, there is no reason you should ever feel like, I can't, of course, have a night to my.

[D]

Yeah, of course. But it feels. It feels excessive. Like when I'm.

[C]

I'm telling you I'm good.

[D]

No, I understand. I understand. You're good. But like, after three weeks of me being on tour, then come home and be like, yeah, I'm gonna go out with the gu for dinner. It Feels like.

[C]

Yeah. Well, I will say, like, if you were gonna do, like, a big Sunday golf. I don't know how golf works, but if you were gonna do, like, a Sunday golf thing and it takes hours.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

That would bum me out more than, like, you wanting to go to dinner, like, when I would be in bed already.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

If you wanted to go have, like, a. Like. We know. So we have so many good friends that they are committed to golfing.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

And I can't imagine that would be more okay with me than you just going to dinner with somebody.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

If you're gonna go spend, like, the prime hours of the day, not with us, that would bum me out a little bit.

[D]

And the thing is, I don't think she would be upset with me going to dinner with, you know, a couple of the school dads or something. I don't not do it because I think she'd be upset with me. It just feels excessive to me to try to do it or to even, like, conceive of the plan to do it, but I could. I mean, I don't think she would be upset with me about it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

That reminds me of when I was in active labor and you were like, oh, I don't know if I should go to this performance tonight. And I was like, go. I need you. Just go down the street.

[D]

I paid to show up.

[B]

That's true. Did it come down to the wire there?

[C]

It came down to me wanting food so badly, and they wouldn't give it to me at the hospital because I was, like, in labor. And so John went, did the gig, and brought me back lamb chops. That's what it came down to. Well, you guys are also very worldly men, though. Like, when I talk to you both, you both seem very evolved. Evolved, yes. Thank you. That's a really good word. Let's think about, like, the shitty guys, then, that are doing it wrong, that aren't necessarily making their wives or partners feel safe. What can they do to mend that and make sure that they can have a good friendship, a clear friendship, but also make their spouse feel okay with it.

[A]

Yeah. Well, first of all, we talk about the concept of social fitness. Obviously, you have your mental health, you're seeing a therapist, you're in the gym, your physical fitness and math. And I talk about social fitness, which is the holistic your interactions, and that's family, and that's friends, and it's romantic partners as well. And the friendship part of it is often overlooked. When you hear the word relationship, you think of your wife or you think of your kids. So you wanted to make sure that friendship is an important part of that. And as Matt said earlier, a guy with healthy friendships is going to be better spouse. So I think that if there potentially are issues between the spouses, that is one way to address it. If he's going out with other guys who are. Who have good relationships, good spouses, and are grounded, that's gonna seep back in.

[C]

Would you lie for him?

[A]

Who, Matt?

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Lie for him all the time.

[B]

First of all, the first thing you should do when you get married to a guy is you clean out his. And then you clean out his bad friend's closet. Right. I am the real dangerous one. You just clip him, and he doesn't even realize you clipped his friends out. He doesn't even know what happened. That's what you should do.

[A]

I am wearing a suicide vest. I can end Matt in my life.

[B]

We call. Yeah, what is it? Mutually assured destruction.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

The thing is, for a lot of this to work, the man has to be good at building trust with his wife so that she doesn't feel away every time he's out of her sight. That has to be earned and built through you actually being someone that's trustworthy as a partner. And I think the reason why Chrissy wouldn't worry about me going out to dinner with anyone partly is just because we've built trust. And when we were early in our relationship, that wasn't built yet, and now it is.

[B]

I also think you earn it through the positive friendship interaction, so you're entitled to your Vegas trip if it's not. Those are the only times she sees you with your friends. You're coming back wasted and you're not being a good dad the next day. Or you only play golf Saturday and Sunday for. And then when you go to the farmer's market, you're absent, you know? So I think it's like, build in what you're talking about. The trust, but also the goodwill to allow for. Sometimes guys need to blow off some steam.

[C]

I cannot believe how mad I used to get, how jealous I used to be. It's crazy.

[D]

Well, we were at different points in our lives, though, so it's like when we started dating, I was in my mid-20s, and I had been single for a while, and I was having a fun time when I was single. So she had a right to at least be like, let's see if he's able to get his act together. That's reasonable for you to feel that way. But we've built so much trust over time. It would be crazy if she was like, no way.

[C]

No. Like, a lot of trust has been built between me and your friends.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Like, I love them. Yeah.

[B]

And getting to know them is what you're talking about too. It's like, if there's some that your partner is hanging out with that you don't know that well and you don't trust, why don't you know them that well?

[C]

I think that's the case with so many women. I really do. I think there's just one standout that you're like, they're gonna get in trouble. Like, once these two link up. I can't trust them. I can't trust them when they're out. And I can't say that I feel that way about anybody that you know at all.

[D]

Well, yeah, all my friends now have kids. They're married.

[A]

It's like, those are the craziest ones.

[D]

But, like, everybody's got responsibilities. They have jobs that require them be, like, present and professional and all these things. So nobody's out just wasting their lives away.

[B]

Yeah. And I also think when you're in your 20s, you know, you want those friends. You're out till three in the morning. When you're 40s, it's time to leave your house at 9pm like, when you go like this, that means everybody leaves.

[D]

You don't want them to be losers either. You want them to have, like, responsibilities and some direction in their lives and all these things, even if they're not married, having, like, responsibilities and direction and. And to care about their careers. That's what you want in a friend.

[A]

You're the average of the five people you hang out with. So if your. If your spouse has five great, evolved, successful friends, there you go.

[C]

Let's talk more about the toxic friend, because I feel that that is very. It's just such a funny one to talk about. Has Matt ever had a friend that you found toxic or vice versa?

[D]

He is the least toxic. Look at this guy. He's wholesome personified.

[C]

Nobody's toxic. It's you.

[B]

If you don't know the toxic person.

[D]

Exactly.

[A]

Well, the first thing we would say is, let's examine why you think this person is toxic and look inward. First, we're talking to the women who have it, who think one of their.

[C]

What would be a reason. What would be reasons that you consider toxic?

[A]

Infidelity? If they are over drinking or doing drugs, if they're not. You know, you want friends who lift you Up. So if a guy has friends who are bringing him down or are bad influences, and that's seeping into the rest of his life, but you also don't know what is going on in that person's life. Maybe the, quote, toxic friend, he's getting divorced or he has problems at work. So we don't actually know until you engage with that person. Now, they may be toxic, but that would be the first step. Or is it that you just don't like that your husband's hanging out with him?

[D]

I saw David Banner. He was doing an interview and he was talking about infidelity. And he talked to this older business guy. He said, I never want to get into business with guys who cheat on their wives because if you would lie to this woman who you've committed your whole life to, you're going to lie to me too. And that's an interesting way to think about it. I'd never, like, heard a man talk about that in the context of other men cheating. Because a lot of times it's like bro code. I'm not going to tell you. Let your friend do whatever he's gonna do. But when someone is a chronic cheater and infidelity is a part of their lifestyle, it means they're dishonest. And so that dishonesty may affect you at some point too.

[B]

Yeah. It's funny, I feel the same way about gossip. If you're out with people that are heavily gossiping, what are they gonna say about you when you're not in the room? You know, I think toxic is right in the eye of the beholder. Right. You think that person's toxic. Maybe your partner doesn't see them as toxic. So have you talked about that with your partner first and foremost, or is it just the environment that you're enabling them to? You know, like, is it that they're only going out at 4am or they're only going to Vegas? Can we get them in an environment where it's just dinner at the house? And then maybe you don't see them as so toxic or they're just not being that toxic. Or maybe they are. Maybe they're a friendship vampire that's sapping the energy. And they are not somebody who's healthy for you or your partner and you need to cut them out. Thing about friendships is sometimes we think that friendships should last forever just because you're already friends with somebody. So there's that inertia on that end. Right. We were talking a lot about the inertia of not putting in the work and your friendship's fading. But there's also the inertia of maintaining unhealthy friendships and not doing a little bit of what we call friendship inventory. Carol likes to do it on his birthday every year.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

So every year when I do a big birthday in la, and by the way, we say, always celebrate your birthday, people like, oh, I don't like to. It's an excuse to get together.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

I literally have a spreadsheet of all my friends because that's how I send the email out, of course. And then I put a new tab every year and I see the friend group who had changed. I haven't spoken to this guy an entire year. He's out, he's in. Just gives me called social universe as well gives me the idea of who my friends are.

[B]

The Harvard study on happiness, 85 years. The longest longevity study ever done. In the number one indicator for lifespan for how long you live wasn't your diet, your exercise, your finances, it was the health of your relationships. So people with healthy friendships and relationships live longer. This stuff is literally killing you to be lonely and isolated.

[D]

Let's talk about initiating friendships. So think about my issue like having a great group of friends in New York, but I'm relatively new in la. What's your advice to people who may be moving to a new city and need that friendship element in their life, in real life, not just on group chats with people thousands of miles away and want to form new friendships with new guys?

[B]

Say, hi, I'm John Legend. You want to be my friend?

[A]

I'm just going to say that I.

[B]

Was just going to know, but it's.

[D]

A serious easy for me. It's real.

[C]

But that actually is. That poses. That's an important point. It might be a little harder for.

[B]

John Legend has his own unique to make a real friend. For sure, for sure, for sure.

[A]

Yeah. But for the average person, yes. First step, you move to a new place. Ask your friends and relatives in the place you just left, and you're going to send them an email. You're going to say, I just moved to la, just moved to Philly. And you're just going to say two words. Know anyone? You want to get warm leads of people in the other city. This is a very, very simple step. Oh, I know. People go, oh, no, my friends don't know anybody in Seattle. Do you know your friend's cousin's fraternity brother? No, just random people in this other city. Except, well, let's get warm leads and then we're going to mandate, which we'll talk about.

[D]

Warm leads, man.

[B]

Glengarry leads, guys. But here's the other one. This is the most obvious. Hiding in plain sight in front of your face. Friends of friends. Yeah, people are so. I don't know, they're so afraid or they feel they're stepping on toes or whatever. Expanding your circle through your existing friends is the easiest way because they're already pre vetted. They probably already have a bunch of similarities to you, commonalities to you. But again, your new city. You don't know anybody. You're not trying to make a friend. I say this sounds counterintuitive because that's too hard. That's too much of a burden on you to wake up and go, I have to go make a friend. That scares me just even thinking about it.

[A]

It's also impossible.

[B]

Yeah, it is. But what you can do is put yourself in a situation where you can build in these habits that will inevitably result in making a friend. I'm a big fan of James Clear about process versus goals. So if you follow the buddy system, our audible, original, these are the steps, right? Consistency, regularity. They call it a third place. I don't know if you've heard this term. It's become popularized, like you're working a home or your first two places. Third place is somewhere you go consistently regularly where people go to socialize. So that could be a variety of things.

[C]

What's your third space?

[D]

I don't have one.

[C]

I don't have one either.

[A]

Again, you're John Legend. So I don't know if you're gonna go to the coffee shop every day.

[B]

No, but you could be. I don't know if you play sports.

[A]

It could be.

[B]

No, we don't have.

[A]

Well, you like golf?

[D]

No, I don't play golf.

[A]

Oh, I thought you said.

[D]

I see. See, what's funny is like Dr. Diamond, for instance, will like invite me out and I've never been able to go on the days when he invited me and because I've always had something else going on. But I feel like we could be closer friends if I was able to like, make some of these golf dates. And then I would actually, like, try to learn how to play golf and it could be a thing. Her manager, Luke, is a really good golfer. And if I was into golf and I would, like go with him and there's other people in my life that would do that. But it almost feels like a luxury when on a Saturday am I gonna do this when I have miles? Baseball game or something else going on or I have a gig. It just feels like when would I ever.

[B]

It is hard. But also we say in the audible original, we say find your golf because not everybody is into golf, but there's something that everybody's into. I mean, I'm sure there are things, if you think about it for a minute that you like to do that you could do consistently. Whether it's like the gym even a lot of people just have gym friends. That's one of the easiest third places, like some sort of fitness class.

[D]

I think going to like a Lakers gym.

[C]

Being a celebrity so much is at your house, your own home, so you're removed from all those. You're not going to like remedy place or something. Right. To go get.

[A]

So you could host something, you know.

[B]

You could turn, you know, I mean, I think for you guys it's probably more about. Since you already love to host. Hosting something a little more regularly. No.

[D]

Cause you could host, just have them over.

[B]

You could host a poker night. Right. You could host a book club. There's a wine tasting thing once a month. There's a million things that you can do.

[C]

I know, but what goes with that is like are people only hanging out with us because we throw these awesome things too?

[B]

That's what I was. I mean that's the burden and great thing about being a host. Yes, people are doing this, but if you like those people, that's okay.

[D]

Exactly.

[B]

I mean that's your role in the friend group. I mean that's honestly, that's the truth. Like everybody has a role to play. People sometimes hang out with me because I'm fun and I, that's part of.

[D]

Like, you guys are funny too. Like, you know, you are too.

[A]

I would, maybe three or four of.

[D]

Us are really funny in this group.

[C]

You've done really good today. I will say give me one thing you want to leave our listeners with about male friendship. One thing you think is crucial for them to know now.

[B]

It's never too late. I don't care how old you are, you start now. We've had this trophy for 22 years. We go back 40 something years. You start now. You could have a 22 year tradition and look back and go, oh my God, I've been friends with this person for 20 years. So don't think it's ever too late to make a new friend.

[A]

And I would say the definition of friendship is easy. It's two words showing up. That's all you need to do to be a good friend. And that includes the good stuff, the birthdays, the super bowl parties, which we'll be at, I assume. And also the. The negative things. The. The. And the illnesses. You can't just show up for the good stuff and not the bad stuff. If you show up, you're a good friend.

[C]

And now for the toolkit. Each episode, our guests distill their expertise into practical and actionable insights. Today, Matt and Erin show us how to plan a mandate for your significant other.

[B]

Okay, so, Kristy and John, we want to do a little exercise.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

The name of this exercise is the man date. Okay, you ready?

[A]

Okay, got it.

[B]

So here's the thing. When men struggle with friendship, it affects their spouse, too. We tend to find that in relationships, men fall into basically three camps.

[A]

Right. So the most common is the guy has no friends, and the wife or the spouse is like, get my husband out of the house.

[B]

Camp two is he sees his friends, but it's all or nothing with them. They're going to Vegas during the week, or they're playing golf Saturday and Sunday, and when he comes home to his spouse, he's got nothing in the tank. Or worse, you're playing cleanup crew.

[A]

Okay. And so Camp 3 is two people with very, very busy social calendars and work calendars who are generally not. Not seeing each other or their friends enough.

[B]

So you guys are probably in Camp 3.

[C]

Camp 3, but we see each other a lot.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

I wouldn't say we have busy social calendars. We have busy work calendar. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So the people who fall into that camp, essentially, it's like things may be going well, but you may not have the right balance between how much do we see each other, how much do we work. Where's that bucket for friendship?

[A]

And so we were talking before about how friendship is like the redheaded stepchild of relationships.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

When things get busy, the first thing that goes is friendship.

[D]

That's definitely us.

[B]

Yeah. And so, look, every healthy relationship needs a date night for each other. Right. We're not going to help you plan that. I'm sure you can tell.

[C]

I know he wishes we had more of those, too.

[B]

We'll do that.

[D]

We should go out tonight.

[B]

Yeah, do it. Do it.

[A]

You're already glammed up.

[D]

You're already glammed up.

[C]

Start there.

[D]

Always base it on.

[C]

So I think of it as, I've been glammed up. I want to take my hair out.

[B]

But the other thing you need is a recurring mandate.

[D]

Okay.

[B]

A recurring regular, consistent on the calendar date with another man.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

So, Christy, what you're going to do, and we're modeling this for your listeners, is you are going to plan a mandate with and for your partner. But the goal is, over time, he's going to learn to do it on his own. Okay, so this is kind of like emotional training wheels. And eventually he does it like a.

[C]

Little mouse in a. Yeah, exactly.

[B]

So I want you guys both to close your eyes and we're going to start with an affirmation. Our relationship is stronger when we both feel full and content.

[C]

Our relationship is stronger when we both.

[D]

Feel full and content.

[B]

I deserve strong, energizing friendships, and so do my partner.

[D]

I deserve strong, energizing friendships, and so does my partner.

[B]

By nurturing my partner's friendships, I am nurturing myself.

[C]

By nurturing, nurturing my partner's friendships, I am nurturing myself.

[A]

Okay, you guys can open your eyes now. Okay.

[C]

All that goes through my mind is like, Ariana said this at one point or Jax.

[D]

Oh, oh, you mean Vanderpump.

[B]

Yes. Great.

[C]

And then we know what happened there.

[D]

We know what happened.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

All right, Chrissy. So we're going to plan a mandate four step process. So the first step is we're going to pick a target. So I want you to choose a friend of John's or a friend of your partner's that he hasn't seen in a while that he enjoys spending time with, but most importantly, who brings out the best in him.

[C]

Would you like me to do Los Angeles?

[A]

Let's do Los Angeles.

[D]

Oh, okay. Yeah, I feel like that that's the most fertile ground right now because I don't have, like, close male friends here other than couple friends, which.

[C]

Okay, okay, okay. Luke. We'll say Luke.

[D]

Okay. Couple friends, but yes.

[C]

Oh, sorry, Is that. Are you allowed to be a couple friends?

[B]

Well, if it's somebody that you would.

[C]

Hang out, he would hang out without.

[D]

I would definitely hang out with him. I met him through Chrissy because it's her manager and her agent is married to him. So the manager and agent married each other because they were working together on Chrissy and fell in love.

[B]

Amazing.

[D]

And we really enjoy both of them a lot. And I. I individually enjoy Luke a lot, too.

[B]

Well, I think those are great. I think it's actually great to do the mandate with somebody that you also both enjoy couple stuff with because you're even strengthening that bond.

[D]

Okay, cool.

[B]

Step two is clearing the path, which is doing a little bit of the work for him, which is reaching out to Luke's wife or Luke directly, depending on your comfort level.

[D]

This is Our management, we talk all day together.

[C]

All of us as a group talk all day.

[B]

So that's step two. You tell Luke, this is what you're doing and you're clearing the path and you're clearing the calendar.

[D]

This is amazing.

[B]

We're removing hurdles. This is a logistical hurdle. So if he's like, I don't know if he can do it. He can do it.

[C]

God, I'm gonna get you into golf, though, and then I'm gonna lose you every Sunday.

[D]

Luke was an actual college golfer and he taught college and he's a member of a country club, lakeside, and he actually like enjoys golfing.

[C]

And you would enjoy it too.

[D]

And he could teach me how to golf, honestly. And I love Luke.

[C]

And he's so patient and so funny. Him and Megan are just like, he's a wonderful humor.

[D]

Yeah, great.

[A]

I love it, I love it.

[D]

There's nothing stopping us but actually doing it.

[A]

This is why we're doing a mandate.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

So the third step. And again, we're imagining we're modeling this for our listeners. Chrissy, you're going to talk to Jon and you're gonna tell him very clearly and kindly on Friday or whatever it is, I'm going out with the girls and you're gonna say you can't come and you can't stay home. Now that's, oh, okay. Now that's the key, right? Because many of our listeners, partners, they're not only not seeing their friends, but they're also just sitting around the house. He doesn't have either of those options. You can come and you can't stay home.

[C]

It's like, you what? I often want to cancel dinners that we have booked together with people. And so I drop out and I go. You still have to go though.

[D]

She'll do that.

[C]

I do do that a lot.

[A]

And so then you're also going to say you're going to tell John you're hanging out with Luke. It's been forever. You're going to text him right now. And then John might say, well, how do I know if Luke's even available? Boom.

[D]

Luke just had a child, by the way, like very recently.

[B]

He needs a night out. He needs a night out.

[A]

But Chrissy has already pre cleared the night, so you can't be like, well, Luke, we already know Friday he's available.

[B]

And now step four is be active, not passive. A lot of guys tend to call or text their friends. Like, we should hang out, we should get together, we should do something sometime.

[D]

But you make a specific day, you're.

[B]

Going to be Luke. I'm free Saturday. I know you're free Saturday. That's when we're going to play nine holes. I've got two hours. I cleared nine to 12. Let's do this.

[A]

Or they could do dinner if you don't want to send them on a golf day, you're in charge.

[C]

I'm just thinking, like, having a date and time stresses me out.

[D]

It doesn't stress me out. So that's not.

[C]

He likes it. Yeah, he likes it.

[A]

The problem is if you don't give him that, he's gonna text Luke. Oh, I'm busy. And then it never happens.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

Are you gonna do it?

[D]

Sure, why not?

[B]

We are doing it.

[D]

We're doing it.

[C]

We're doing it. Is this it? When this airs, it's gonna happen.

[D]

It will have happened.

[A]

Okay, so we have a little bonus tip. Okay, so before he goes on the mandate with Luke, we want you to just remind him that when he comes back, there's going to be a little pop quiz and that he's actually going to go a little bit deeper with Luke.

[D]

Oh, wow.

[A]

How's it going with the new kid? How's your wife? How's job? Not just what's going on with the Lakers. How's your golf handicap? We actually want him to ask some personal questions.

[C]

You'll be good at that.

[D]

Yeah, absolutely.

[B]

And here's the follow up. After the date, you're gonna remind him to send flowers. Yes. You're gonna remind him how he felt because we tend to forget how energized we were. He's gonna come back lit up.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

From that date. And we don't want that feeling to fade and then never be calendar again. So when he comes home and you go, wasn't that so great? That's when you go. Okay, now put it on the calendar again.

[C]

This is really so good for women too, though. Like, I think anyone could listen to you guys. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. This were our work for anybody.

[C]

They really do.

[A]

And then we bring it all back to the beginning of our conversation, which is creating the ritual. We have the trophy now. You went out with Luke. Now Chrissy's not going to plan the next mandate for you. You're going to say Luke. How about the third Thursday of every month we do dinner or once a quarter we play golf.

[D]

Megan's going to be like, I just had a fucking baby.

[C]

I know, but she can be her baby to me.

[A]

Let's picture our listeners who their husband does never goes out and never sees anybody. We want to get it a recurring ritual so there's no excuse. And it's on the calendar.

[C]

Oh, I love that.

[B]

And so here's the thing. At the end of the day, he's happy, you're happy, your relationship has more oxygen. This is not micromanaging. This is emotional maturity. This is relationship maintenance. This is what love looks like.

[A]

That's a mandate, guys.

[D]

I love it. That was excellent.

[C]

That was so good. Matt and Aaron, thank you guys so much. We have new friends.

[D]

Yes. Are we friends now?

[B]

We are friends.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[C]

Matt, Aaron and John, I want to thank you guys for joining me today on Self Conscious. The Buddy System by Matt Ritter and Aaron Caro is available on Audible. Until then, tune in, turn on and feel better. This is Chrissy Teigen and you've been listening to Self Consciousness, an Audible original podcast. This has been an Audible original produced by Audible, Q Code and Huntley Productions, hosted by Chrissy Teigen. Written and executive produced by Jimmy Jelinek, Executive producers for Q Code, Shen Yan Hu and Alexa Gabrielle Ramirez. Executive producer for Huntley Productions, Chrissy Teigen, Executive producer for Audible, Stacy Cream. Recorded and engineered by Ben Milchev. Filmed by Bridger Clements Production coordinator Brian Coulter. Edited, mixed and mastered by Ben Milchev Head of creative development at Audible, Kate Navin Chief Content Officer Rachel Giazza. Copyright 2024 by Audible Originals, LLC. Sound recording Copyright 2025 by Audible Original.

[B]

It.