Cannes Special: Reaching for Outcomes: Tatari’s Philip Inghelbrecht on the Future of TV Advertising

Summary

Marketecture Podcast Summary: Cannes Special – "Reaching for Outcomes: Tatari’s Philip Inghelbrecht on the Future of TV Advertising"

Release Date: June 16, 2025

Hosts: Ari Paparo and Eric Franchi
Guest: Philip Engelbrecht, CEO and Co-founder of Tatari
Location: Cannes

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Introduction and Tatari’s Growth

Ari Paparo kicks off the episode from Cannes, introducing Philip Engelbrecht, CEO and co-founder of Tatari.

Philip Engelbrecht shares an overview of Tatari’s impressive growth since his last appearance on the podcast, stating, “We’re probably 5, 10x bigger in every respect. Customers, revenue, market” (00:41).

Tatari’s Elevator Pitch and Services

When asked to succinctly describe Tatari, Philip elaborates:

“Tatari is technology for TV advertising. Hundreds of brands and agencies use our product to plan, buy, and measure their TV campaigns—from start to finish.”
(01:22)

He emphasizes that Tatari's services encompass not just Connected TV (CTV) but also traditional linear TV, satellite TV, online video, and true conversion TV. Notable clients include Chime, with Tatari securing spots in high-profile events like the Super Bowl.

Client Engagement: Agencies vs. Direct Brands

Ari inquires about Tatari’s client acquisition strategy. Philip explains that both agencies and direct brands engage with Tatari, often depending on their familiarity with TV advertising. He notes:

“Brands first come to us when they’re new to TV advertising. They’ve done a lot of digital advertising but can’t scale anymore.”
(02:21)

For agencies, Tatari provides measurement technology and data integration, drawing parallels to platforms like The Trade Desk but focusing exclusively on TV.

Democratization of TV Advertising

Discussing the shift towards performance-driven TV advertising, Philip reflects on the evolution over the past eight years:

“The buy-in has come down a lot. I’m not so sure if it’s [truly accessible] to hundreds of thousands of small brands like on AdWords or Facebook.”
(04:43)

He categorizes Tatari’s clients as “growth clients” typically spending between half a million to a million dollars annually on advertising, distinguishing them from truly small businesses like local pizza shops.

Measurement: Audience vs. Outcome-Based

Ari steers the conversation towards measurement methodologies, referencing a recent discussion with VideoAmp’s CMO. Philip contrasts traditional audience measurement with Tatari’s outcome-based approach:

“Nielsen and VideoAmp are more audience measurement companies. We focus on outcome measurement—the extent to which a response was generated.”
(06:12)

He highlights Tatari's use of set-top box data and Automatic Content Recognition (ACR) data to enhance measurement accuracy, catering to brands that prioritize down-funnel metrics such as sales or Return on Ad Spend (ROAS).

Critique of Demand-Side Platforms (DSPs) in CTV

Ari references an article where Philip expressed skepticism about the future of DSPs in the Connected TV landscape. Philip elaborates:

“The whole programmatic value chain makes sense when the supply is highly distributed, as in digital. In CTV, there are about 10 large publishers controlling 90-95% of impressions.”
(08:00)

He argues that direct integrations with major publishers are more effective than leveraging DSP technology, which often introduces issues like fraud and brand safety risks.

The Role of AI in Tatari’s Operations

As AI dominates discussions at Cannes, Ari asks Philip about Tatari’s AI initiatives. Philip outlines three primary applications:

1. Process and Workflow Automation: Automating creative approvals and ensuring correct formats (11:05).
2. Media Planning Engine: Utilizing eight years of TV data to generate optimized media plans more efficiently than humans.
3. Media Execution: Leveraging AI to allocate impressions to the most relevant brands through direct publisher integrations.

He shares an exciting example of a client, Kashi, deploying a fully AI-generated creative that will air during the NBA Finals:

“They used AI from top to bottom. It was done in a matter of hours. That’s the creative we’re going to see in the NBA final.”
(13:47)

Tatari’s Cannes Strategy and Future Plans

Wrapping up, Philip discusses Tatari’s increasing presence at Cannes:

“We’re bringing more CMOs to Cannes. We have six people on the ground and more than 100 meetings lined up.”
(14:04)

He highlights the strategic importance of engaging with large brands and agencies, marking this as a significant milestone for Tatari’s growth trajectory.

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Key Takeaways

• Tatari’s Expansion: Significant growth in clients, revenue, and market presence since inception.
• Comprehensive TV Advertising Solutions: Covering traditional and connected TV, with a focus on outcome-based measurement.
• Performance-Driven Approach: Emphasizing down-funnel metrics over traditional audience reach.
• Skepticism of DSPs in CTV: Advocating for direct publisher integrations to mitigate risks associated with programmatic buying.
• Innovative Use of AI: Automating workflows, enhancing media planning, and optimizing media execution with AI technologies.
• Strategic Cannes Presence: Actively engaging with large brands and agencies to further establish Tatari’s market position.

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Notable Quotes:

• Philip Engelbrecht:
  “Tatari is technology for TV advertising…from start to finish.” (01:22)
  “We focus on outcome measurement—the extent to which a response was generated.” (06:12)
  “The whole programmatic value chain makes sense when the supply is highly distributed, as in digital. In CTV, there are about 10 large publishers controlling 90-95% of impressions.” (08:00)
  “They used AI from top to bottom. It was done in a matter of hours. That’s the creative we’re going to see in the NBA final.” (13:47)

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Conclusion

This episode of Marketecture provides an in-depth look into Tatari’s innovative approach to TV advertising, emphasizing outcome measurement, strategic AI integration, and a critical stance on traditional DSPs in the CTV space. Philip Engelbrecht’s insights shed light on the evolving landscape of TV advertising and Tatari’s pivotal role in shaping its future.

For more detailed discussions and future episodes, subscribe to Marketecture on Markitecture.tv or your favorite podcasting app.

Transcript

[Ari Poparo]

Foreign. Welcome to the Market podcast. This is Ari Poparo. We're broadcasting from Cannes. All week we're going to be publishing short interviews with interesting people here at Cannes. We hope you enjoy it and we'll be back next week with a can wrap up in our normal format. All right, welcome to the Market podcast. I'm here with Philip Engelbrecht, who's the CEO and co founder of Tatari. Philip, thank you so much for being with me.

[Philip Engelbrecht]

My pleasure, Ari.

[Ari Poparo]

So Tatari is an interesting company. We haven't heard from you in a while. What's the latest? What is Tatari up to?

[Philip Engelbrecht]

We have kept very busy and of course it pains me to hear that you haven't heard from us for a while. Our clients surely have. So, I mean, look, I think it was fortunate enough to be one of the early people on the podcast years ago. I didn't check what I said back then, but, you know, without knowing the exact baseline, we probably 5, 10x bigger in every respect. Customers, revenue, market. And so it's been, it's been a.

[Ari Poparo]

Fantastic ride and so is the podcast. So we're all, we're all growing like crazy. But for those who may not be that familiar, what's, what's the elevator pitch on what Tatari is? It's tv. CTV buying more than ctv.

[Philip Engelbrecht]

So we say Tatari is technology for TV advertising. Hundreds of brands and agencies, they will use our product to plan, buy and measure their TV campaigns. Soup to nuts. And when we say TV campaigns, it's more than ctv. It's also kind of the good old fashioned linear tv, satellite tv, online video, true conversion tv. The brands that use Atari, they could be very small, could be a very large company. Chime who's going public is one of the tyres clients. We place companies straight in the Super Bowl. I think we place already 3, 4 spots for next year. And then around the technology, we kind of build also what we refer to as infrastructure, a privacy and identity solution. Under the brand vault. We also have a sizable supply site technology component to the company under the brand viewpoint. So it's truly TV advertising vertically integrated.

[Ari Poparo]

So with the big clients, you're working through agencies and with the small clients you're direct. Is that a good assumption?

[Philip Engelbrecht]

It can go both ways and we're truly agnostic to that. I think maybe there's no kind of like rule to that. But what we do see is often brands first come to us when they're new to TV advertising. They've done a lot of digital advertising. If anything, they're really good at it. They can't scale anymore. They want a product that looks and feels like digital design tv. And we give that to them. Right. And so agencies, they come to us because they hear about Atari or their clients ask about it and they may say like, what can we license your measurement technology? How can we tap into your data for media execution? And so it's more in that capacity that we then start to work with those. It's very similar to the trade desk for all intents and purposes.

[Ari Poparo]

Okay. But focused on tv.

[Philip Engelbrecht]

TV only. Yes.

[Ari Poparo]

So when we spoke about smaller advertisers, it brought to mind Mountain, which just went public. I'm personally on the board of Vibe, which is a competitor. So tell, what do you think of this whole movement to bring performance to tv, small advertisers to tv? It seems like there's a big shakeup happening.

[Philip Engelbrecht]

Yeah, I mean, look, the notion of performance tv, it's something that we started with eight years ago, actually. I would say back then people kind of like didn't think that highly of us. Maybe they felt it was weird because the good old way to measure campaigns was more than Nielsen audience measurement. And so we're obviously very big believers in IT or measurement. Product is also incredibly developed. It's what we lead with. Having said all of that, we understand Mountain and Vibe. And for sure there's been a democratization over the world of TV advertising. When I was a TV advertiser, it was a big budget brand privilege. Right? You needed millions to get a seat at a table and hundreds of thousands of dollars to get it creative. That price point, the buy in has come down a lot. I'm not so sure if it's really true. SMB, right? I don't think it's hundreds of thousands of brands in the same way that you will have brands go on AdWords or Facebook or Meta. I think these brands are little, somewhat larger than maybe a Vibe or a mouth will suggest.

[Ari Poparo]

When you say small, you can mean like literally a corner pizza shop who might be interested in spending a couple hundred dollars a month. Or you can mean, you know, a Shopify store that does millions of dollars. And I brought this up previously that the average account on Mountain is spending over $200,000 a year on TV, which doesn't strike me as very small.

[Philip Engelbrecht]

I would agree with you on that. We always like to think that we refer to it as a growth client. They will easily do a half a million to a million dollars per year in advertising. So a good chunk of that will be tv. But again, it's not that small pizza corner shop that some will refer to TV is still, I mean as much as we have evolved, there's still, you know, it's still not like AdWords. Even with an AI creative, the approvals do take some time. Sometimes these small companies don't even have the bandwidth to self serve and manage their own campaigns.

[Ari Poparo]

So yeah, you don't want the pizza shop logging in pizza, but not for TV advertising. You mentioned measurement. I would love to hear a little bit more about what you're thinking in measurement. We had the CMO Video Amp on the show a couple of weeks ago and she made a pretty compelling.

[Philip Engelbrecht]

She was great.

[Ari Poparo]

She was great. She made a pretty compelling case about alternative currencies. So do you think in terms of Nielsen versus alternative currencies or are you in measurement in a totally different way?

[Philip Engelbrecht]

Yeah, so if you look at Nielsen and to a large degree Video Amp, those are more audience measurement companies. The success of a campaign is defined by the extent to which a certain audience has been reached. And by the way, it's a good way to measure tv. It will never go away. We focus more on the world of outcome measurement. Right. The success of a tv, the campaign is defined by the extent to which in most cases a response was generated. Right. And it can manifest itself as a sale or a roas, KPI or whichever it is. We do look at companies like that as Tatari license us a lot of data. I always say we have an insatiable appetite for data. I think there's loads of companies in the outcome measurement space that don't license set up box data, ACR data. And I always wonder, well, how the heck do they do it? But so yeah, we look at it, but it's not one or the other. When brands are small, they will typically lead with outcome measurement and that gives them peace, confidence and confidence to scale as they get bigger measurement like Nielsen and Video Amp also have a very important place.

[Ari Poparo]

Well, it's also by different strategies, right. Different parts of the funnel. Different strategies, Correct.

[Philip Engelbrecht]

Yep. And small companies will focus on down funnel. And again that makes sense. You're small, every dollar has to count. Larger companies, we see it around $5 million in annual TV spend. They will start to focus more on metrics like reach frequency, optimal frequency and the like. And it's the fluency and the ability to shift from one to the other that matters a lot.

[Ari Poparo]

Yeah, that's interesting. So you're not that bullish on DSPs in this world of connected TV or at least you wrote an article sort of critical of the future of dsps. Give me your bear case on what's wrong with dsps.

[Philip Engelbrecht]

I think, look, there are the traditional pushback around dsps and let me say programmatic media execution right around pricing, the ad tech tax, the risk of fraud, brand safety. And I think those are. Well, I won't say understood, but at least they're well known. My skepticism around DSP technology kind of is more strategic in nature. I think the whole programmatic value chain makes a lot of sense when the supply in a market is highly distributed. In digital, there are literally hundreds, sorry, millions of websites with inventory. So we need SSP tech to organize it. There are hundreds of thousands of small advertisers who can buy it. So we need DSP tech meeting the SSPs and the exchanges to get it all going. In the world of CTV, that's not the case. There's probably about 10 large publishers, things that you and I will watch now. Hulu a peacock. Those publishers will command 90, 95% of all the impressions. So if we can agree to that, why go or why apply a digital practice or technology to the world of ctv? What we do at Tatari instead, we're going to do these direct integrations with a few select publishers and execute the media that way. And the publishers, they like it as well. Right. They don't get their impressions anonymously picked off by a dsp. They see who's on the other end, they understand the budgets. And so it deals with some of the issues that with a dsp, like. Like fraud. Right. A publisher will never sell fraud on its own impressions. And so. So for that reason we just don't see a future for DSPs in the role of CTV. Actually, I will think that it's. The traders kind of came to it. Why? Because they moved from digital into CTV and they kind of forced these practices upon us. But it doesn't really make sense.

[Ari Poparo]

Yeah, I kind of made this point in a newsletter a couple months ago that the two things that brought about programmatic in the display world were fragmentation of supply and cookies. And neither of those things exist in the CTV world. You don't have nearly the targetability and there's less fragmentation.

[Philip Engelbrecht]

Sometimes you don't want to target too much, take a few steps back. As a medium, the true power of DV is driving reach and awareness. There's actually no medium that can drive reach as DV can. And the more we target, which is by the way, almost synonymous to the deploying dsp Tech, the more we target, the less we reach. And so as CTV penetration has now surpassed cable penetration, maybe we don't want to target that much on ctv and we want to harvest the true power of TV with reach.

[Ari Poparo]

So yeah, once again, it might be. It might be different parts of the funnel, different types of advertisers, different things. So AI is the big story at CAN. Everyone's talking about agentic AI. AI. So what are you talking about with.

[Philip Engelbrecht]

AI and beyond the notion of ChatGPT for sure. I mean, look, AI definitely. I can't say that it came to us as a surprise, but definitely has come and been adopted much faster than I even ever expected. And this is not my first company. And so we kind of use it in three ways. One of them is around process, workflow, automation. A good example is creatives. When a creative is put together, putting it to the approval processes, making sure it's correct, format and spec and all of that can be automated. And there's a lot of AI data that we can do and so that's great. Then there's a lot of AI around media planning. We announce at Atari what we call media planning engine. Essentially eight years and billion dollars of TV data with outcomes put to work to build TV plans faster than a human being ever can. And by the way, more accurate, sometimes with the most remarkable suggestions, but then also driving results. And the last one is probably a little harder to explain for us in terms of AI and machine learning, but it's in media execution. Right. When we have the direct integrations with the ad servers at the publisher site, we use AI to ensure that the best impression is always allocated to the most relevant brand. Right. Actually, one of us at The Architecture Conference Scope 3 talked a lot about that. It's something we've been practicing at Tatari for a while.

[Ari Poparo]

That's interesting. So are all those examples you just gave in production in Tatari. They're live. Tell me about the one that is the most interesting one I think is Creative, because everyone's talking about creative and it's pretty obvious. Use case. What's the reaction from customers on creative AI? Are there some customers who just show you the hand and say, no, we don't want anything to do with that? Are there others who really like it?

[Philip Engelbrecht]

Yeah. So with respect to AI and creative, so like the way we use AI and Creative is kind of more for checking what's individual. Will it get approved by the networks as something flag? I think the component that you're talking about that we don't participate in yet, but our brands do, is using AI to build creatives from scratch. Today, one of our clients, Kashi, which is a kind of a platform for trading bets, release the creative. I mean, it's phenomenal. They used VO3 top to bottom. And it's. I mean, it's not only, how shall I say, a great creative, but. But it was done in a matter of hours, as far as I understand it. That's the creative we're going to see in the NBA final.

[Ari Poparo]

Really? There's going to be a fully AI generated commercial in the NBA final.

[Philip Engelbrecht]

And it's a good one, Ari. It's a really good one. All right, I'll send it to you.

[Ari Poparo]

Well, that's exciting. We were breaking some news here. Okay, so lastly, tell me about your can plan. What's Tatari up to?

[Philip Engelbrecht]

Every year a little bit bigger, bolder and better. Right. I came to this personally the first time, I think four years ago, not knowing what I was stepping into. And the only thing I kind of observed was some maybe business development meeting partners, the very companies from whom we license data and the like. And then as of last year or the year before that, increasingly we find ourselves meeting and working with agencies as our agency business grows. And this year, and it's actually something I'm personally proud of, we. Quite a significant chunk of our meetings are with brands. Big brands, large brands. And for a small company like Atari, that is the holy grail in many ways and so very much looking forward to it. We've got six people on the ground and I think we've got more than 100 meetings, so we'll be busy.

[Ari Poparo]

That's great. Do. Do a lot of brands come to Cannes? They get the budget to fly out here?

[Philip Engelbrecht]

Yeah, yeah, the big ones. We're talking sea level CMO, right. We're bringing some of our own CMOs to Cannes for sure.

[Ari Poparo]

Get on the private jet, head to the. Head to the Riviera. I get it.

[Philip Engelbrecht]

I did not say that, but surely it is aspiring.

[Ari Poparo]

All right. This was a great conversation. A great way to kick off can week. Philip Engelbrecht, the CEO, co founder of Tatari. Thank you so much for being here.

[Philip Engelbrecht]

Thanks for having me.

[Ari Poparo]

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