Interviewer (2:54)

That's quite a KPI.

Jenny (2:55)

Yeah. And so it's really just about wasting less. So I guess my job is to try to tell the story about what sets us apart. And then also in a world that's dominated by 90% Nielsen, is how do you try, I mean, for the sake of innovation and the sake of saving some of these long tail networks and content that I love, how do you actually create optionality in the marketplace and how do you create price flexibility which leads to, you know, talking about this earlier leads to innovation. And if we don't do that, I don't know, I'm scared to see what's going to happen.

Interviewer (3:37)

Right. So I guess let's start with the easy question. Do TV ads work?

Jenny (3:42)

Yes, TV ads work.

Interviewer (3:44)

Okay, so we should. Why are we having this conference?

Jenny (3:46)

Well, but I'll just say that if we. I say tv. Ever since I worked with Naylor over there at Hulu, I've always thought t. I asked a kid once, like, what is tv? Do you. Where do you watch tv? And he said, in a movie theater. And I was just like, oh God. Everybody sees. TV is not just this linear thing, it's a video. So I think video works, right?

Interviewer (4:08)

Sight, sound, emotion.

Jenny (4:10)

Yes. But I like to call it TV because I said to somebody once, when you say the word video, do you get any emotion? And I said, but when you say the word tv, you're immediately like Arrested Development and Sopranos and Handmaid's Tale. It's just that it's tying it to something. That's why CTV does work.

Interviewer (4:25)

Right. So what does works mean to the advertiser?

Jenny (4:29)

I think it's outcomes like you're talking about. It all goes to sales or whatever your KPI is. And so I think this is a great theme here is how do you tie cross channel measurement to actually a sale or, or whatever that KPI is? And I think it's really important for marketers these days because, you know, everything's fragmented between linear television, digital, CTV streaming, or throw CTV in there, get fast channels, you got avod. And if you can't tie all that together to figure out did something at the top of the funnel actually create enough demand to collect that demand into an outcome I think that, that we have to be held accountable for that as marketers. And so we need the tools to do that, to tie it cross and especially with these walled gardens, like trying to get in with Meta and YouTube, Snap, et cetera.

Interviewer (5:21)

So are advertisers or agencies thinking about this in terms, are they coming from the perspective of the old digital way of what's called conversions, or are they coming at it from the opposite extreme? I think. Which would be audience based currencies?

Jenny (5:40)

Well, I think both actually. I mean I think audience based currencies is the future. I still don't know why people, unless you're P and G and maybe Mondelez, who says I'm going after everyone that has a mouth.

Interviewer (5:54)

I think that's Hershey's Auto.

Jenny (5:56)

No, that's what John told me is everyone that has a mouth.

Interviewer (5:58)

Everyone has a mouth.

Jenny (5:59)

He stole it. Maybe. I don't know why people are still buying demos unless you're buying football. So I think audience. I don't know if this is your question, but I think audience segmentation is probably. It has to be the future. You should be buying on advanced audiences, whether that's through DDL or digital. You can buy also from a linear perspective, but you could buy on advanced audiences. With Pepsi we actually decrease the CPM, increase reach and increase sales by 20%. And it's just like story after story of you go after the right people and you're not just buying impressions which is sometimes leads to over frequency or leads to piling up into an area just so you can make the number. It just, it's not going to work. So we have the tools and why are we not using them?

Interviewer (6:48)

What's a typical advanced audience like? Not Pepsi, but just give us an example of what someone wants.

Jenny (6:55)

A cat lover. Cat lover that wants to buy a Lincoln.

Interviewer (6:58)

That wants to buy a Lincoln.

Jenny (7:00)

I mean you could get as deep.

Interviewer (7:01)

Down as it gives you a. Yeah.

Jenny (7:03)

No, you can get. I mean even like pharmaceutical companies and I'm not giving away anything here, they don't want new customers. They want somebody that's already on their competitor. So that's an advanced audience of where they would go after. And again, this is all done privacy safe way is they would go after someone that uses their competitor because they want to convert them or someone like Instacart who actually knows what you eat in your house. And so he. They probably know what kind of diseases you have if you're like laxose intolerant. So then pharmaceutical companies can use those advanced audiences which Is kind of scary to target someone that might have diabetes.

Interviewer (7:41)

I don't want to be ableist. A lot of people are lactose intolerant.

Jenny (7:45)

I should have used a different one.

Interviewer (7:46)

And is the audience definition coming from the same sources that the digital people are used to? You know, data brokers and all that kind of complex chain of events that produces data about individuals?

Jenny (7:57)

Yeah, I mean but I think we have a lot of our own proprietary tools here at videoamp that we do bring in a lot of serious signals to try to help us. Like in that we have valid which is video amp linked identity and data. And that basically has six different inputs into our clean room, which is patented, I'm going to say. But it brings six different points in. So we, we have a much better understanding that if four of those signals tell us this person is more likely to X, Y and Z, it's probably better than just using Experian and is.

Interviewer (8:31)

I guess we kind of blurred the line that conversation about advanced signals between targeting and measurement. But in this world where there isn't necessarily a call to action that's measurable, is that the mindset where if I reach the audience I wanted to reach, that's an outcome?

Jenny (8:48)

I think it could be an outcome because they might convert six months down the line. So I think you could call those people hopefully intent that you can actually then mine, I don't know to use that word, but mine them as an advanced audience that is probably further down the funnel that could come to an outcome. So I think it absolutely could be right. I mean look at capt.

Interviewer (9:09)

It depends on the category, right?

Jenny (9:10)

Yeah, like captify, which I love those guys. They, you know, if Google's not giving you the information, Captify is search intent in the middle of the funnel. So they scrape hundreds of thousands of sites where I might be searching on target.com or Walmart and I might say, you know, I want, you know, EOS lotion. Sue Young by the way is incredible president over Eos. But like, and then I know that their intent, they have the intent to buy it. So that's mid funnel intent.

Interviewer (9:42)

I'm not a lotion consumer.

Jenny (9:43)

No, they make lotion by the way, not just those lip balms.

Interviewer (9:46)

All right, good to know. So okay, so, so in that case, in that example, you're saying that sear search volume might be a, an outcome that's or sort of a proxy metric for, for that could prove that the advertising worked.

Jenny (10:03)

Yeah, and what I like, I mean again when I was at Hulu, I remember it was like our CFO kept saying buy more search. It only has a $7 cac. And I'm like there's really, it's really a $30 cac. I had to create the demand in order for them to search. And it was so hard to like, like say I can't just buy at the bottom of the funnel. So that's why, you know, last click I think is the wrong way to look at things. Obviously it's an input to say if somebody bought something. But I think that's why I really like the captivi mid funnel intent. Then you can try to drive them to buy something.

Interviewer (10:35)

Yeah. So after this we have James borrow from Universal ads. But that whole cohort of sort of bringing SMB to connected TV is very interesting and they are taking I think a little bit more of a digital approach. Conversions. They're showing an ad and then trying to drive someone to a web page. Is that just a different market or do the big companies think that way also?

Jenny (10:56)

No, I think they think that way too. But I think they just see it as a part of the multichannel buy. It can't stand alone and I don't think it can take full credit.

Interviewer (11:09)

What do you think about QR codes and ads?

Jenny (11:12)

I can't believe they're still around. But I thought they were gonna be gone after Covid and the menus. I can't believe we haven't designed them better. I think even I worked on a Boardwalk empire where I was giving a free drink away in like 2006 or something on a billboard and I even put a coat like made it designed a little bit better. I don't know why people can't do that.

Interviewer (11:35)

You gotta give me a paper menu at this point. Like what's going on? Yeah, but it worked.

Jenny (11:42)

I sadly think they do work though. Cause not everybody knows how to use them.

Interviewer (11:45)

That's ugly as the race to click. So scan as fast as possible. I think they're kind of pretty. I don't think they're really. Yeah, no, they have an aesthetic.

Jenny (11:53)

I'm the marketer. I guess you're a marketer too.

Interviewer (11:57)

I'm a lot of things. So let's talk about the so called walled gardens and, and how it interoperates or doesn't interoperate from a marketer's perspective. So I'm spending money on maybe meta and they're doing their own measurements. Right. And then I'm spending money on other channels and I'm getting more flexible measurements. So how, what's the challenge? There.

Jenny (12:22)

Well, I mean, I think the challenge is frankly just grading your own homework. I think a lot of people are looking for the third party validation. Right. And so we actually bring, we integrate into Meta's lift tool so we actually can bring in our optimization and audience segmentation into, into their platform and use it as cross channel so people can understand. Oh, I bought Meta Instagram, but I also bought NFL and I bought Netflix and I bought, you know, YouTube. So to figure out like what part of what, how did that help the sale versus just creating it from someone, did they click on an ad or not there in that. So we bring in Snap, we bring in TikTok, so we bring in Meta. So it's really, I think a one stop shop of where you can look cross platform.

Interviewer (13:12)

Are you bringing in their data and then analyzing it or are you pushing your segments to them so they can provide it? I know it's a technical question.

Jenny (13:19)

It is a technical question actually. I just know that we integrate it. So again I'm the marketing side, not the tech. I can come back with you. But I think we integrate it and I will say that we are able. People give us their data like Netflix gives us their data, Hulu gives us their data into our clean room. So it does show that people trust us, like working with another client. We brought their first party data into our clean room and there was like a, I think 36% match rate. And then by the time that we went through all the six different points, we were up to a 90% match rate. So that's again just from a waste less perspective, like you're actually targeting the people that you want to target. And TeleVisa, Univision, using DDL and their first party data, they were able to show a sales lift of like 20%. So it's real. Advanced audiences is absolutely where it is. And using your first party data and zero party data, I think it's also key in a clean room.

Interviewer (14:18)

And so we talked about this on the pod quite a bit. It's a subject I like to think about which is the concept of dual currencies where someone, especially in the traditional media world might be selling on a Nielsen rating but also guaranteeing, I don't know, video amp advanced audience. How common is that?

Jenny (14:36)

Well, on the advanced audiences we definitely are the clear winner there.

Interviewer (14:41)

All right, all right. Not a sponsor by the way.

Jenny (14:43)

Yeah, no, but, no but I mean still, it still is like we're in a, we are in a conundrum because people are selling on, you know, transacting on Nielsen and then, you know, like, then they've also transacted advanced audiences on us. You do have to reconcile those. And it's not necessarily apples to apples when people say to me, like, why are your numbers different than Nielsen if we're even? Because we do demos as well. And I said, well, who's to say theirs are right?

Interviewer (15:09)

Sure.

Jenny (15:11)

So it's just kind of. We don't have anything to compare things to anymore and we're using Big Data. And it's just like, I think we're at this crossroads where it's going to get hard and you are going to probably have to transact on multiple currencies. But that's a good thing for this industry because it may be more work, but in the long run you'll be able to actually understand those tools. We're not going to be stuck with just one personnel of price flexibility, and then we'll continue to innovate. If not, we're going to, I feel like, be stuck in this for years.

Sponsor/Announcer (15:42)

What is.

Interviewer (15:43)

I think we have been stuck in this 102 years, actually.

Jenny (15:46)

We've been stuck in it.

Interviewer (15:48)

So what, what is, like the actual IO say when you buy media from, from a broadcaster or what used to be broadcasters and you're using two currencies, does it say that I'm going to pay on one and guarantee the other? Or what's the. Is there a clawback if I don't hit the audience? How does that work?

Jenny (16:05)

Okay, I can't speak for Nielsen.

Interviewer (16:07)

Sure.

Jenny (16:08)

I can say I don't think there's any penalty from what I've been told of not hitting the correct audience. Whereas we are more of a pay to use, like as pay as you go. So if it doesn't work, we're very transparent about that and we'll, we'll, we'll figure that out. But we're very open about it. We're not. And we, we, we. You, you pay as you scale, you don't pay a flat fee. So they're very different on the IO, but I actually have no idea what the IO says.

Interviewer (16:37)

Right, right. Because if they miss their Nielsen metrics, they're going to probably want some payback on that.

Jenny (16:43)

Well, they're going to want the ADUs. And here's the problem is, you know, you've got this, you know, if you've got all those little long tails now, like A and E and AMC and Hallmark, which are, you know, when big data plus panel came out, it was like, oh, we're 20% higher. So I'm going to guarantee on that. And then it's like, oh, I'm sorry, you're 9% lower. It's like, wait a minute now, I can't fill those adus now because I guaranteed. And that's what I'm most nervous about is if we don't get stability in this, in this marketplace, we're going to be stuck with Warner Brothers, Paramount, which I love all them and I've worked at most of them, but like, and Netflix, which is great. But all these little long tail networks are going to go away because they can't, they can't afford to do that.

Interviewer (17:25)

What, what exactly would could they not afford to do? They can't afford to sell on demos and not have the data infrastructure. Is that you're.

Jenny (17:33)

No, what's happening is they're, they're, they're guaranteeing on a, let's say a 20 higher rating and then it comes in at 9% lower and then you've got to fill all those, you've got to fill all those spots because you have to pay them back, people, the advertisers, and then you don't have enough spots to fill. So they're just, it's a downward spiral.

Interviewer (17:53)

Right. Do you think like there's some convergence where we talked about earlier, we're not sure what TV is, it's video. Right. So does that converge with all of digital? Like what is the difference between, you know, TikTok kind of being an example or to the sort of a social network, but really video watching. Right. Is it. Do this distinction go away?

Jenny (18:13)

I think so. I mean, I think it's just content. Like, look at the influencers. Like, like I don't know if you know Agentio, Arthur Leopold's new, new, new startup, but he's creating like an ad network for using AI for the creators, which is much easier than working with creators themselves. That's content.

Interviewer (18:34)

Wait, are they AI creators or are they real creators?

Jenny (18:36)

They are real creators. And yeah, you should look it up because he has really cool platform that he's doing. So to me it's all content. It's if, if you enjoy watching it, whether, look at these micro dramas that are coming over now where it's like they're like 10 minutes or 5 minutes. I guess it's the Quibi that actually works, right?

Interviewer (18:55)

Quibi has turned into TikTok.

Jenny (18:57)

Yeah, but it's, to me it's all, and I still say tv. Maybe it's because I grew up. I mean I started my career at hbo. And we came up with it's not tv, it's hbo. So. And I'm going backwards now to say.

Interviewer (19:08)

Everything'S tv, you drop that factoid on the pod as well. It's a good one. So, last question. So when, when markers are looking at this stuff and they're getting results of, you know, they reached cat owning Lincoln drivers or whatever, or they didn't, you know, what's the, what's the feedback loop? How fast can they change their media, change their creative based on some of this data?

Jenny (19:32)

So we, I don't want to get put in exact time frame. I'd like to say real time optimization. Sometimes it's a week, right. Or two weeks, but it's pretty real time compared to like an mmm where you're always looking backwards. And it's also not even. It's seasonal, et cetera. So it's really hard to indicate what you should be doing. So I would say that we are real time always on. You can have the data faster. It's just we need to verify and make sure that it's correct. But I would say a week to two weeks. You can optimize within your plan.

Interviewer (20:03)

Right? That's fast for tv.

Jenny (20:05)

Yeah, right.

Interviewer (20:06)

All right. All right, everyone give Jenny a big hand. This is a great conversation.

Jenny (20:10)

Thank you.

Sponsor/Announcer (20:19)

Foreign. Thank you for listening to the marketexture podcast. New episodes come out every Friday and an insightful vendor interview is published each Monday. You can subscribe to our library of hundreds of executive interviews at marketecture tv. You can also sign up for free for our weekly newsletter with my original strategic insights on the week's news at News Marketing. And if you're feeling social, we operate a vibrant Slack community that you can apply to join@adtechgod.com.