← Marketecture: Get Smart. Fast.
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- [00:00]
Ari
This podcast is brought to you by the Current. Ever wanted to sit down to a candid conversation with the marketing leaders of the world's biggest brands? The Current podcast is your chance. On the Current podcast, you'll find exclusive interviews with the experts and trendsetters who are on the front lines of digital advertising. And they always leave the ad tech jargon at the door. Subscribe to the current@www.thecurrent.com or anywhere you get your podcast today. This podcast is brought to you by sao, a leading CTV advertising platform. Purpose built to help brands effectively reach, engage, and validate streaming audiences. For over a decade, SAO's platform has combined deep industry expertise with innovative technology to meet the needs of an evolving media landscape ready to unlock the power of CTV advertising. Learn more at Sapio wspodcast. That's sao. Wspodcast. Welcome to the Marketcture podcast. This is our hundredth episode. Yay.
- [01:15]
Eric
Unbelievable.
- [01:16]
Ari
Did you think we were going to get here?
- [01:18]
Eric
Of course. I had no doubt. I had no doubt. But wow, 100 episodes.
- [01:23]
Ari
What was that stat? You used to always say, like, if you do three, like, most podcasts end at one. If you do three, you survive. What was that?
- [01:31]
Eric
Yeah, I think it was 90% of podcasts don't make it past the episode three, and then 90% of the remaining don't make it past episode 10.
- [01:42]
Ari
So we are like, we're so beyond. We have exit velocity. It's going to say podcaster on our tombstones. Father, husband, podcaster.
- [01:54]
Eric
We've never updated or even discussed updating our social handles to just say podcasters.
- [02:00]
Ari
That's what it is. That's what we do. We could hang out in Williamsburg and tell people we're podcasters. When I say tell someone I don't know very well that I'm a podcaster, I always have to be like, it's actually really popular. It's not just me talking into my phone.
- [02:15]
Eric
Exactly, exactly. Well, it's the hundredth episode and we have a very special guest for you today, listeners. We have the legendary Michael Kassin.
- [02:26]
Ari
I'm very excited.
- [02:27]
Eric
Yeah, I am super excited. Michael has had an incredible career. He is super experienced, and he is starting his next thing, or has started his next thing, 3C. So I'm looking forward to hearing from him about 3C, his vision, what he's excited about. I'm interested in hearing, like, you know, from his perspective, like, where the industry is going with hold codes and AI. I want to talk about Google. Like, there's so many things we can talk about. But I think the biggest thing with Michael is he's full of stories, he's full of comedy, he's funny. I just can't wait.
- [03:01]
Ari
Yeah, he's funny. We want to follow up from a couple weeks ago where Randall Rothenberg was talking about his involvement in the Google, Microsoft sort of dispute. Antitrust stuff. That's really interesting. But also, I want to hear about his perspectives on the industry at large. And I'm going to turn the tables and ask him what Markitecture should be doing, because right in his wheelhouse, doing events and doing publications and stuff like that. So maybe he'll give us some free consulting.
- [03:27]
Eric
I hope so. All right, let's get into it.
- [03:29]
Ari
Yeah. This is coming out Thanksgiving week, so we're going to skip news of the week. Presumably, there won't be any giant news on Monday or Tuesday of Thanksgiving week. If there is, maybe we'll have to run back from our turkey and do an emergency pod of some kind. So hope you enjoy our 100th episode, and thanks for being loyal Markitecture listeners.
- [03:47]
Eric
Yes, thank you, everyone. We'll keep going. All right, Michael Kassin, welcome to Markitecture.
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Michael Kassen
Happy to be here, Eric.
- [03:55]
Ari
This is our 100th episode. We're so excited to have you here. I mean, even before we started taping, we witnessed you servicing your customers, taking phone calls, giving restaurant recommendations. It's like a full package here.
- [04:08]
Michael Kassen
It's a full package. Well, Ari, the only question I have for you is, is there any connection with be between this being your 100th episode and my advanced age? Did you. Did you pick me because I'm old? I hope not. No.
- [04:20]
Ari
We thought you'd freshen it up after. After 100 episodes. We need to spice this up a little bit. Let's just jump in. So you have a new thing, 3C ventures. Sounds like a venture capital firm. Is it a venture capital firm or you do nothing or.
- [04:34]
Michael Kassen
No, it is not. And I tried to have a descriptive name. I'm happy to tell the story. In the spring, as I was contemplating what's next for me, I was sitting with a good friend of mine, I think, somebody you both know, John Miller. And John said, okay, Michael. And it was a tablecloth that you could write on. So think of it like a whiteboard just in front of you, not on a wall. And he said, so what are you going to do? You're going to consult? And he writes the word consult. And he says, and you're still going to have a presence in the event world and, you know, look at recreating what you did with can and CES and other things of that sort. I said, yes. He says, see, you're going to convene. So he writes down the word convene. And he said, and you're going to continue to do, you know, M and A and family office investing and diligence in private equity and strategics. I said, yeah. He says, so you're going to co invest? I said, yeah. So I looked at the piece of paper. It said, consult, convene and co invest. I said, there you go. I think you just gave me the naming to 3C ventures through ventures in just because I liked it as a modifier and because we're venturing into something at an interesting time and an interesting inflection point. So ergo, the genesis of 3C Ventures.
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Ari
So your business plan was written in crayon on a table?
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Michael Kassen
Yeah, Ari, I'm proud to say, I continue to be proud to say. I don't know how to write a business plan. It's not my style. So I'm a kind of ad hoc guy.
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Ari
So what's missing from the market that you're providing? Like there are a million and one consultants out there. Obviously not with your pedigree, but where's the gaps in the larger advertising and media marketplace?
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Michael Kassen
It's easy. We don't have enough humor in the industry. We need to bring humor back.
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Ari
Yeah.
- [06:24]
Michael Kassen
Guys, I fancy myself a Borschtalt comic. You know, I could do standup in the Catskills if I. If I had my. If I had my way. So what I think the industry is missing is not the hole I look to fill. What I think the value that I can add is the way I approach it. Maybe that's a half full, half empty way to look at it, but what I think is the brand of consulting that I'm proud of and that hasn't changed from when I started down a consultative path about 20 years ago with the previous company. My view of it is consultants too often are consultants and don't realize the three legged stool that I think I realized in practice. And that three legged stool, I can commit this to memory because I've said it a few thousand times, but it begins that first leg begins with strategy. What's the challenge you have? What's the problem we're solving? Why do you need us? That's the first thing. And we help you design that strategy, whether it's go to market, whether it's organizational design, whether it's Diligence on a project, whether it's anything along that continuum, that's always the first step. The second step, which I think was a good addition for me early on because I've always taken an operator's approach to consulting, because I'm an operator by trade, and so I think of it through that lens. So the second thing is, if we've given you and helped you design or define or tweak a strategy, how do you implement that strategy? Do you go on a tour? Do you go and can and ces, do you go on a lunch and learn? Are you out there on the market? How are you doing it? Are you on a podcast? Whatever. Whatever it is you need to do to do, deliver on that strategy. And then the third thing, which I always thought and will continue to believe is the biggest differentiator, is the execution. So strategy, implementation, execution. I understand that there is a way to have a consultative event where you hand somebody a deck, whether it's one page or 100 pages. Great. But what do they do with it? And I've always liked to say, I'm going to give you the deck. I may probably give you the last page of the deck, because that's really all you're asking. The old joke about a consultant, you ask him what time it is and they tell you how to build a watch. I don't know how to build a watch, but I know what time it is in every time zone you need to know. So therefore, I do know the answer you need. That could be on one page, not 400 pages, but when I deliver that, if I then leave and go to the next, then I'm a regular consultant. If you look at it through the lens that I do and the now 3cv lens, look at it as a chef, and then I'll jump off of this. You write a recipe. That's the strategy. You help cook the food. That's the implementation. You're going to eat the food. So you better like it. Because if you're involved in the execution, it better be something that is doable or achievable, because otherwise you're going to be frustrated and so is the client.
- [09:17]
Ari
And execution is a lot about people, right? Giving recommendations that the client's not staffed or not able to do is a real. Is a real issue. So let's move to this another C. The connecting part. How big is your role? First of all, how I assume you're not old enough that you have like a paper Rolodex, right? You don't have no not anymore.
- [09:36]
Michael Kassen
I used to have the spindle.
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Ari
I used.
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Michael Kassen
All right. I used to have three spindles. Okay, because they were full.
- [09:43]
Ari
Do you have any idea how many people you know in our industry?
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Michael Kassen
According to what my phone Sundays, it's about 27,000 people in my Rolodex.
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Ari
Do you remember the number?
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Michael Kassen
I've never given that number out to anybody.
- [09:55]
Ari
We have a schedule.
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Michael Kassen
I know there's a place that tells you where it is, and it's 25. All contacts is 25,000, 774.
- [10:04]
Ari
Okay, we have a title for the episode. 100th episode. 25,000 contacts. What's it like? Because I'm like the kind of person that can't remember my children's names some days. But, like, you walk into a party, do you know everybody? Do you know their names? Do you know their histories? How do you remember it all?
- [10:18]
Michael Kassen
It's getting a little tougher, but I do. And I used to use shorthand in the early days. I was working with Microsoft a lot. And I just made a decision that everybody at Microsoft and the MSN team was either named Stacy or Amanda. I just. I couldn't remember. I said, if you work for Microsoft on msn, your name is Stacy or Amanda. It doesn't matter, because it's just easier for me because there was a few Stacy's and a few Amanda's. No. One of the things I loved about the movie Rain man is when I get a number or a thought or a face or a name in my mind, I never forget it. There's a great joke there. You know that joke?
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Ari
No.
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Michael Kassen
Do we have time for a joke?
- [10:56]
Ari
Do have time for a joke? Sure.
- [10:57]
Michael Kassen
Always. So the guy's robbing the bank. There's a bank robbery going on, and the guys are wearing masks. And lo and behold, in the middle of the bank robbery, one of the guys, masks, flies off, and he's freaked out, and he points his gun at the first guy. He goes, you. You over there. If I was in a lineup, would you recognize me? Guy looks at me, goes, yeah. Shoots him dead. Next guy looks at you, Ari. He goes, you. You behind the counter over there. Can you pick me up out of a lineup? And, yeah, shoots him dead. Now, he looks. He sees this little Jewish couple behind the counter. And he looks at the guy. He goes, you shorty over there. Would you recognize me in a lineup? And the guy goes, I wouldn't. But my wife never forgets a face.
- [11:40]
Ari
All right.
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Eric
Oh, my God.
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Ari
Wow. Yeah, that was a good one. I like that. Keep it clean.
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Eric
Let me jump in here. Just speaking about people and events and your convening pillar in former lives and even currently with possible you've become associated with bringing the industry together, hosting events, doing really memorable things. How do you think about that in the future and what the industry might need from an events and convening perspective that it doesn't have now?
- [12:16]
Michael Kassen
Yeah, I think. Look, I've always thought the event side of the business grew out of two things. A, it was a great way to build a brand and I understood marketing from that perspective. So if I could establish the brand as being the place to be, the event as the place you need to be, A, that would be important because B2B marketing is not unimportant and building a brand is something you have to do over a period. So that was one element. The other is I'm a big believer in efficiency and the idea of being able to bring the industry disparate parts of it together when everybody is in one place, whether it's a January at ces, April, if possible, June and can. I'm not a big fan any longer of Advertising Week because I think it just got played. No disrespect. I think the idea was brilliant and the execution in the early days was. I just think it's played, so it's not quite as important on the calendar. But the efficiency that comes with that is brilliant. I've always had a business philosophy. This is a little bit of a word game, but if you take the three following words and use them in a sentence in the right order, someone will do well. And those words are fragmentation, consolidation and efficiency. If you find me something that is fragmented, that can be made more efficient through consolidation, somebody will make money. The great example of that in previous years would have been screen advertising. I understand, because people don't go to movies as much. No disrespect to my friends at Screenvision and National Cinema. That's a challenged industry these days because people aren't going to as many movies as they used to. But the idea of consolidation, fragmentation and efficiency, just think of that. If you didn't have an NCM and a screen vision that consolidated a very fragmented industry. How many thousands and thousands of screens are there in the United States? You couldn't buy it. But by consolidating that fragmented industry and have an efficient way to buy it, it works. I felt the event side was similar to that, number one. And so trade marketing was at the base of it. The idea of creating a room where people check Their weapons at the door. And you bring, as I said, the disparate but also the competitive parts of the industry together. I think that was a ticket that I stamped early on and had the ability to do that and create a safe place in the industry, even though these people are fiercely competitive, you know, throughout their day jobs, number two and number three, I think we learned in the pandemic that while we can do this and this is efficient, and I feel like I'm with you guys, there is something to be said for that in person. And it was proven. We saw what happened with both CAN and CES having been stalled for two years and. And then coming back and they came back. At least in can, it came back bigger and bolder and stronger than ever. So it proved, I think, the thesis that people wanted to be together and do it. And those who look at those kinds of events as boondoggles, they're at different events than I am.
- [15:21]
Ari
Right.
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Michael Kassen
Because it's the hardest week of the year for people who understand it and use it for what it's meant for. If you come back with a tan or a sore liver, you're not doing the right thing.
- [15:31]
Ari
I'm sensing a pattern of threes. We have three C's, three legs of the stool, three words for success. Definitely a effective way to communicate some of these thoughts. Do you want to give us any preview of what you're thinking on the convene side of things? Are you going to create a new conference or new event or.
- [15:52]
Michael Kassen
Well, I think too early, I think it's fair to say. 20 plus years ago, I say this immodestly but very pridefully. 20 plus years ago, I started to go to Cannes, Lyons in the south of France. And it was and continues to be a brilliant festival celebrating creativity. I think what I did and what I think I did with my previous team, and I'm happy to say some of those people will be part of the new team. We built a conference around a festival of creativity. So when people go to Cannes today and have all the beaches and the conference that surrounds the festival that celebrates creativity, whether you like that or not, I'll be the person you should have either respect for or ire for, because that's what I saw and that was the opportunity. So I think I kind of already did that. Guys. Something bespoke, even though it's not bespoke, it's not mine. I think the name association between Michael Kassen and Ken Lyons is inextricable. And similarly with ces, it in that case I did create what became the C space. It began as Brand Matters and that was the idea of the Consumer Technology association, or back then the Consumer Electronics Association. It subsequently changed their name, coming to me and saying we'd like to attract the brands. The marketing side, this was 15, 16, 17 years ago. And I said, okay, well I'm already doing that. I've got brands coming and we're leading tours and we're doing a docent led tour. So you're not walking around like a idiot looking at big screens and not knowing what's going on. We've already customized it, so we're already bringing the brand. So that was the genesis of Brand Matters, which became the C space. So again, I've done this with the industry. I do think there's a bespoke event in me and we're focusing on what that might be. But I will tell you that 3C will show up at these events in a different way than I've done previously. Because the good news is when you imagine something first and you get a chance, which was a great gift to me to reimagine it, I think I have a little bit of an advantage because as I've said before, 18 years ago I looked around the corner and saw the opportunity for the previous company. I get to look around the corner again, which I'm doing right now. And the only difference is my eyesight is better, right?
- [18:17]
Ari
So should I feel bad if I get. If I come back from Cannes and I'm bright pink because I forgot to wear a hat, does that count as a hair?
- [18:25]
Michael Kassen
It has to do with pigmentation too. You know, you're a light colored guy, the olive complected people like me. I can wear it well.
- [18:32]
Ari
This podcast is brought to you by AdRoll. AdRoll is a name a lot of advertisers are probably familiar with. A leader in high performance Digital Advertising for 15 years. AdRoll is a brand you can trust to deliver strong ROI across display, native and paid social campaigns in one platform. Get in touch with an account expert or create a self Service account@adroll.com Ari Today that's adroll.com Aritoday okay, so I want to turn the tables, right? I'm running a small media company called Markitecture. You may have heard of it. It's the name of this podcast. What should we be doing? So give me some free consulting here. Like what? What's the opportunity for me and my minions here? We have ad tech. God, we have newsletters, podcasts, a lot of other stuff. Going on. What should we be doing?
- [19:21]
Michael Kassen
You know what I used to say. I began my career as a tax lawyer. I think you may know that. I don't know, but maybe your listeners don't. But I spent the first 10 years of my career as a tax lawyer. Went to law school, and then I went to graduate school for a master's in tax. So I did that. And I learned a long time ago cocktail party advice is worth what you pay for it. So be careful about.
- [19:45]
Ari
Are you drinking already? We're recording this at 11 Eastern.
- [19:48]
Michael Kassen
Never know what's in this cup.
- [19:50]
Ari
I don't know what's in the Starbucks cup. Yeah, okay, Exactly.
- [19:53]
Michael Kassen
It's a clear liquid. I mean, you know, I don't know if it's matcha. Maybe it's gotcha.
- [19:58]
Ari
But okay, with that caveat, I'd love some free advice.
- [20:01]
Michael Kassen
Yeah, look, I would continue to do what you're doing. I think architecture has created real resonance in the market. And, you know, I was excited to join you guys today because, you know, lots of people talk about what they hear and see from you. And I believe that having that, you know, the thought pieces out there and the thoughts out there, I think is the way you build the enterprise. And I think you're doing a good job of it. You know, I'd save the best for last, which is, you know, just get better aligned with 3cv and you'll see magic happen. You know, we're up for doing it.
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Ari
Let's do some events.
- [20:36]
Michael Kassen
I needed to say that so that whoever's listening to this doesn't think that the Invasion of the Body Snatchers has stolen Michael Kassen away from me. I'm still me.
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Ari
You're still pitching? Always pitching.
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Michael Kassen
Still Ask for the order, baby.
- [20:50]
Ari
Here, I'll pitch an event. Instead of the south of France, we do a tent pole event. But it's really cold, like Iceland in December. Do you think that would work? Everyone in parkas networking.
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Michael Kassen
You don't know the fashionista side of my life. If I can bring out the heavy coats, I'm a happy guy. The layered look is big in my life.
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Ari
So to prep for this interview, I asked some folks what questions I should ask you. And one thing that came up was to ask you about your syndicated radio show on iHeartMedia. Is that still going on? What's going on? You're a celebrity radio host.
- [21:22]
Michael Kassen
A long time ago, Bob Pittman came to me, actually, here on 100th anniversary podcast. Bob Pittman came to me on the 10th anniversary of advertising Week. And said, michael, you've got a face for radio. That's a joke, guys.
- [21:39]
Ari
Oh, yeah, that was funny. Sorry, my bad.
- [21:41]
Michael Kassen
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Thank you.
- [21:45]
Eric
I need it here.
- [21:46]
Michael Kassen
I'm insecure. So Bob said, I got a great idea. We had our office then at 90 Park Avenue. And he said, what if I set up a remote broadcast in your office and you got some of the big names in the advertising industry to come in and do like a quick interview? This was a long time ago. It was the two way someone could look it up. What year was the 10th anniversary of advertising Week? And that's the year it was. And so I invited Michael Roth, who was running ipg. I invited Martin Sorrell, I invited Joe Tripoti, was the CMO of Coke at the time. I invited a whole slew of CMOs and people. I said, hey, this is easy. When will you stop by my office? We'll chat for 10 minutes and I'll be on the wor on the radio. And that's what we did. And it started. And then I started to do it as a regular show. So there were plenty of mornings and evenings I'd get calls from my friends, drive time five to seven and five to six in evening on wor. It was, you know, media linked, excuse the expression, with Michael Cassin. And it was fun. That morphed into the podcast, which I continue to do, called All Good or Good Company. And rather because the salutation I use on just about everything I ever write is All Good at the end. So Good Company is the podcast that I do. And it's fun for me to do what you guys are doing, to just talk, because I love to talk. That's why when I was a lawyer, I got charged by the word. It was great.
- [23:22]
Ari
All right. Another question that I think Terry Kwaja teed up for me was to ask you, really about the dynamics that are going on with the holding companies, where it feels like there's some share shifting and that Publis is doing really well. It's hard to tell what is actually happening, but maybe you have some insight you could give our audience.
- [23:43]
Michael Kassen
Well, I do have to digress with a Terry story. When Terry was honored by the UJA in New York with the Marketing Services Award, when we asked him to do it, he says, well, you know what, guys? I mean, this is the United Jewish Appeal, and, you know, I'm not Jewish. And I said, no, it's okay. We can. We can make exception. He says, I said, you may have to have a little procedure before. And so Knowing Terry. Knowing Terry. Terry did one of his parody videos for the night of the event, and he asked me to play a role. And this is my favorite Terry story. Terry asked me to play the role because he said he went through all the things he says, now that I'm being honored by uja, I have to have that surgery and I got to do it. And so the part of the moil was played by me.
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Eric
Oh, God.
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Michael Kassen
Okay. And he. And he introduces me and he says, this is Michael Cassid and he's the Moyle because he gets a cut of everything in this industry.
- [24:41]
Ari
That's a good joke.
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Michael Kassen
It's a very good joke.
- [24:44]
Ari
The thing about Terry is he's very hard.
- [24:47]
Michael Kassen
And the good news is it's true.
- [24:52]
Ari
I don't think I've been a major customer in my entire career of you and your entities, except once when I bought, I kid you not, a picnic table from you at Domexico for $25,000. We wanted to stay in Domesco.
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Michael Kassen
We saw a frickin picnic, Ari.
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Ari
It was literally a picnic table. It wasn't a metaphorical picnic table.
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Michael Kassen
We did it as a campfire. We did it as a campfire set up in Cologne, Germany. When you said picnic table, I beat you too, saying dmexco. And by the way, I will correct you, my friend, it's de Mexico. You, like everyone else, calls it the Mexico. There's no I. It's digital media Expo, the Mexico.
- [25:33]
Ari
I used to tweet, like, you know the resorts in Cancun when I went to. To Mexico as a joke, and some people bought it and thought I was confused, but it was. That was always a fun pool.
- [25:43]
Michael Kassen
I'm disappointed. We only nicked you for 25,000. You must have taken the economy version.
- [25:49]
Ari
Yeah, you know, there was an option 50.
- [25:52]
Michael Kassen
They had pads on the seats. I mean, it was different.
- [25:54]
Ari
And I think for like 75, you got an umbrella above your table. It was really. God bless, man. I want to be in that business. That. That's really. That's really something.
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Michael Kassen
Well, but back to the holding company.
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Eric
We were talking about Holdcos.
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Michael Kassen
Yeah, yeah, look, I think. I think you can say you heard it first here. I can't tell you which, but I think the Holdco landscape will not be the same as it is today, 12 to 18 months from now. And I say that through the lens of M and A. That's just my belief. I think there's opportunity. And if we look back on that side for a moment and I know that wasn't the question you asked, but I'm answering it anyway. If you look back at that period when there was a possibility of a public season Omnicom merger years ago, that didn't happen, as we affectionately referred to at pog, the industrial logic that brought that to bear probably still exists. Not necessarily that configuration, I don't see that happening. But you know, that kind of industrial logic makes some sense today. You're seeing consolidation happening rampantly within the holding companies. You know, all the moves that Mark Reed made at WPP with bringing Wonderman and Thompson and VML and Young and Rubicam and everything together under one roof. And all of a sudden you know what, what John Ren's done at Omnicom Advertising with Troy Rohanan kind of running the advertising group, I mean, you're seeing consolidation internally. That should be an indic of what's on people's minds. But in terms of what I think you were asking Ari, look, public were on a torrid pace of winning everything in sight. They're still on fire. Omnicom has been having great success in the market and that doesn't negate good success. That's happening at IPG where they lost a few and then bam, they came back and won a few. You know, you had an Amazon, then you win an Amgen, you, I'm not suggesting they're equal size, but you know, you lose this one, you get that one. That part of it I think is cyclical. But clearly it appears if you're looking at the ranks, the two hottest hands in the business right now are Publicis and Omnicom. But you know, that doesn't exclude the others. So I think that's where you were going. I think the big issue is everybody getting comfortable with principal buying. I think that's a very important part of the conversation right now and it's an advantage to those who were, and it was seemingly a disadvantage to those who were not. My orientation is having run back in the days, the largest media agency in the world and we were a fully non disclosed media buyer. And Western International Media was famous for that. Only three or four of our biggest clients got full disclosure. We were a non disclosed media buyer, which means very clearly clients were not shown the actual cost of the spot. They were relying on the fact that we, and we were able to say it with authority, we were buying at the best prices in the business because we were the largest buyer in the business.
- [29:03]
Ari
So I want to turn to a related subject that we talked about a lot on this pod, which is whether you've seen any of the effect of AI on the agency model. And whether you're consulting or your contacts are coming to you looking for advice.
- [29:18]
Michael Kassen
The answer is yes and yes, we're starting to see it. The impact is not yet significantly perceptible, but you're starting to see it. But I met with a few companies the other day. One particular one who's. I can't get into it because I don't think it's public yet, but signed a significant deal with one of the smaller holdcos to really come in and reimagine through a lens of AI, lots of the processes that they're involved in. So I think it's here. I don't think it's coming. I think it's here. And we're starting to see it, and we're starting to advise on it, and it's a critically important part of the mix right now.
- [29:55]
Eric
What do you think is going to happen, Michael? Like, you know, fast forward 18, 24, 36 months, as agencies start to adopt it, do we see, you know, shifts in terms of head count? Do we see new centers of excellence? Like, what do you think is going to happen?
- [30:12]
Michael Kassen
I think that initially you won't see reduction, you'll see enhancement of your job. It'll allow you to do your job better. We're all hearing that, but I think ultimately you're going to find that the ranks will be thinned. I mean, there's no question that if we can do things. It goes back to what I said, fragmentation, consolidation, efficiency. If we can find a more efficient way to do the things we're doing and not suffer equality, then I don't know what the alternative is. You know, businesses are not having a P and L for charitable purposes. And if you can reduce costs and have as good, if not a better result, then you're going to do it. If you're a responsible business leader, yeah.
- [30:51]
Ari
Sitting by sidelines isn't an option.
- [30:53]
Michael Kassen
I think it's naive to say that it won't. I think it's naive and it goes back to years ago when 5G was being introduced. I was interviewing at the time, the president of AT&T, a gentleman by the name of John Dowd Donovan. And it was when Verizon and AT&T were duking it out as to what was 5G E and did you really have it? And is it, you know, on the way to 5G? And I asked him a question in that keynote at CES that year. I said, john, it seems like every question we ask about will 5G impact? The answer is and he stopped me, he said the answer is yes. He said, so we call it the technology of yes because Everybody says will 5G impact this? And the answer is yes. So I think, you know, kind of dumbing it down for me because it's easier. AI sounds silly, but is the technology of yes it's going to change everything and am I worried about it being channeled? You know, do I think we end up with Lex Luthor in the DC world? I hope not. I hope we end up with the good version who can see the value and not use it for nefarious purposes. Obviously.
- [32:06]
Ari
Yeah. So last topic that we talk about a lot on this pod is the whole Google antitrust stuff. I wanted to have two part questions which is one is like what do you think is going to happen? And two, you know, this is just a follow up. So we had Randall Rothenberg on about two weeks ago or three weeks ago and he specifically talked about you. So I wanted to give you a chance to respond. He said that you were at the time hired by Microsoft to advocate against allowing the DoubleClick Google acquisition to happen and that you were really persistent about it. So there's no specific thing to respond to, but I wanted to make sure that you were aware that on this pod you had been discussed and maybe tell us about your involvement in that process and whether it should have been.
- [32:48]
Michael Kassen
Allowed to go through so I can make this easy. In 2009 Wired magazine wrote an article called the Plot to Kill Google written by Fred Vogelstein. Okay, It's Wired magazine 2009 plot to kill Google. It tells the story of Microsoft. Hiring me to represent Microsoft in the industry. Relative to. First move was the bid that Microsoft and Google made to buy DoubleClick from Hillman and Friedman, the private equity firm. And this was in 2006 and they offered $3.2 billion. They both offered $3.2 billion. Hellman and Friedman chose not to respond to Microsoft at all because they were viewed as the evil empire. And they responded to Google and accepted the offer. I was engaged by Microsoft to undo that deal and we got pretty close. And then Microsoft made the decision to buy a quantive which had Atlas. So if you understood that that created in the mind of the DOJ a competitive situation. So whilst we were saying this would be anti competitive if you had allowed Google to own DoubleClick, when Microsoft buys a quantive and has Atlas they go, well wait, they've got one, you got one. So this, this should be this is, this is competition. Great. Not really, but okay. And I said, and what's funny, and this is bringing it full circle. I was on the Microsoft Team and there's a gentleman by the name of Jonathan Cantor who is the Justice Department attorney prosecuting the Google case. He was the lawyer for Microsoft. So Jonathan Cantor and I worked together extensively, as did many, many, many, many other professionals around the industry. Lawyers, lobbyists, what have you in that context. And the case that we were making back then about why they should not let DoubleClick go with Google is basically the case that is being prosecuted now. And we knew it and we said it. And if you read the article I just told you to read, you'll know it. The second step of that guys. And I'll tell you the Randall part of it because it's funny, the second step of it was when the Justice Department allowed Google to do the double click deal. Microsoft made the bid, as you might recall, to buy Yahoo.
- [35:10]
Ari
Right, that's right. I remember that.
- [35:12]
Michael Kassen
Then Yahoo spurned it and tried to sell their search business to Google to thwart the Microsoft offer. What we did was we got the Justice Department to not allow Google and Yahoo to put search together and then we represented Microsoft further to allow Microsoft and Yahoo to pull search together. Cause you will remember Microsoft powered Yahoo search and that happened for quite some time. So the Randall part of that story is I spent the better part of a year, which is what you will read in that article. I alluded to working the industry really, really, really hard at the senior most level, including Randall Rothenberg. And Randall loves to tell the story, as I understand it, about my calling him every day. Yeah. And me and him. And him telling me no every day. I'd like our listeners to understand, get to know me. My name is Michael Kassen. To me, no is a definite maybe. And I'm going to continue to call.
- [36:14]
Ari
Well done, well done.
- [36:16]
Michael Kassen
Okay. And I'm going to continue to call.
- [36:19]
Eric
You have in 20 years of canon CES hosted some of the most incredible events. I've always wanted to ask you what was your favorite in terms of like an artist, a performance, sort of like memorable thing that, that you were a part of.
- [36:38]
Michael Kassen
It's a wonderful story and I get to tell a good, what I think is a, is a potential, you know, business school case that you could write on event strategy. And I get to tell that story. So I'm glad you asked that question, Eric. About 13 years ago I got a phone call from a very close friend, someone I'd worked with for 35 years. And I'm proud to say I continue to work with and continue to be good friends with. And that's Bob Pittman. Bob had just come out of retirement to start back into the business and was brought in to run radio at Clear Channel because it was not iheart then, it was Clear Channel. And he was just asked to run radio because they had out of home as well. And he called me up. We had just placed Tim Costelli in that role. And he called me up and said, michael Castelli tells me we should dip our toe into can. What say you? I said, well, Bob, if my remit is with you to help put radio back into the conversation. The conversation emanates in can. So, yeah, I think it would make sense. You probably should be there. He said, well, I understand you kind of own can. I said, well, I don't own it, but I planted a flag there over the last many years. And I said, I've got a pretty, you know, we've got a pretty good footprint there. He said, I understand you have this velvet rope party at the Hotel de Cap, and it's like the mustache be and must see. And I said, you know, it's. It's become a thing. It's become a dinner that people want to attend. He said, could we partner with you? I said, well, honestly, Bob, I'm using this as my trade marketing. And, you know, this is really how I'm looking to build my brand. And so I kind of don't want it to look like a NASCAR jacket with a bunch of logos on it or Tokyo at night, you know, with too many lights. I'd like it to be building the brand that I'm interested in at that time. And he said, well, I respect that, but I thought we could bring talent. And I said, you know, I tried that at CES two years ago. Sony Music graciously gave me a wonderful performer, Raphael Siddique. He was amazing. Grammy Award winning. Really good. Sad part is nobody paid attention. People are at the party to schmooze and network. They didn't want a concert. That's not what these are about. So for me, it didn't work when I tried it in Vegas, and it was rude to the performer. And Bob said, being Bob, he said, well, I respect that. He said, but I was thinking a list. I said, humor me.
- [39:01]
Ari
What do you got?
- [39:03]
Michael Kassen
He said, elton John. I said, partner. Okay. I said, partner. Done. That's a true story. Elton John played that. The first deal we did with Bob, we'd already had the dinner, but we brought Elton John and it was at that point a sit down dinner for 125 people. I've been fortunate in my life. I've seen Elton John many, many times, but I'd never seen him like that. And no one in that room had ever seen Elton John playing to what was affectionately a small bar mitzvah. I mean, it was 125 people, okay? And there's Elton John. So I have to say, because of the electrifying nature of it being Elton John, that first time that anyone in the industry ever did anything like that with a talent at that level candidly was great. Now why is it a business school case study? Because I would tell you that that event helped set in motion the rebirth of audio through the lens of Iheart and others. But that's when people in the industry went, oh, wait a minute. Radio can't be dead if they're like relevant and they're got Elton John and you know, with Michael Kassen. And that was that moment. So I have to say it was Elton John because of the special nature of it. It was groundbreaking and it was Elton John. And I found out. I'm going to tell you a story that nobody knows.
- [40:25]
Ari
Breaking news here.
- [40:26]
Michael Kassen
I was fortunate a few years ago to sit at a Grammy showcase the Saturday before the Grammys. And I was invited to sit at the table with Elton John and David Furnish, his partner. And it was kind of special, to be honest, sitting at lunch with Elton John. And we started talking about that night and I said, I'm so curious. What was the hook? What was, you know, what did the hook that Bob had, You know, what was the thing?
- [40:53]
Ari
Right?
- [40:53]
Michael Kassen
This is really, this is, this is how the world works. He said, David Furnish turned to me. This isn't gossip. I'm actually proud of this story. Said we were bringing a new artist to market then and we needed help to get that artist out there. And so Clear Channel I heart was going to be helpful to us in promoting this artist and it was important for us. I said, I'm just curious, who is the artist? They said a guy named Ed Sheeran. So I have to, I have to.
- [41:23]
Eric
Thank Ed Sheeran, oh my God.
- [41:25]
Michael Kassen
For getting Elton John to the Hotel Du Cap and Bob Pittman, of course, but, but that's the truth. So when you. That's the real sausage making guys. It was a favor to Elton John for Ed Sheeran, which kind of changed the face of or changed the answer to your question, Eric. And I've never shared that story. So you all heard it here.
- [41:46]
Ari
I think that's a great place to end this. This is an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for joining us on our 100th episode. Michael Kassen, a living legend, but not 100 years old, not 100th anniversary.
- [41:59]
Michael Kassen
Sorry. Thank you. And do me a favor, Would you call Randall Rothenberg and tell him to expect a few thousand phone calls from me?
- [42:06]
Ari
I will. I will.
- [42:09]
Eric
Absolutely, Michael. Thank you so much, everybody. We'll see you next week. Thank you for subscribing to Markitecture. New interviews are added every week at.
- [42:18]
Ari
Markitecture TV in your favorite podcasting app. Thank you for listening to the Markitecture podcast. New episodes come out every Friday and an insightful vendor interview is published each Monday. You can subscribe to our library of hundreds of executive interviews at Markitecture tv. You can also sign up for free for our weekly newsletter with my original strategic insights on the week's news at News Market tv. And if you're feeling social, we operate a vibrant slack community that you can apply to join@adtechgod.com.