Marketecture Podcast: Ep. 142

Title: What’s Going on with the Google Remedies Trial
Date: October 3, 2025
Host: Ari Paparo
Guests/Co-hosts: Eric Franchi, Alan Chappell

Episode Overview

This episode offers an insider’s look at the ongoing “Google Remedies Trial,” where Ari Paparo has spent the past two weeks reporting live from the courthouse. Joined by Eric Franchi and Alan Chappell, the trio dig deep into the nuances of proposed remedies for Google’s ad tech monopoly, industry ramifications, courtroom dynamics, and the most current developments. The discussion then pivots toward broader ad tech happenings, including Trade Desk maneuvers, OpenAI monetization, Amazon’s aggressive supply strategies, and more.

Main Theme

• Antitrust Action’s “Remedy Phase”: With Google already found to hold monopoly power, the trial debates which remedies (behavioral, structural, or otherwise) will actually restore competition in ad tech—or if any can. The episode blends courtroom recap with industry analysis and broader news.

Key Discussion Points

1. The Google Remedies Trial: Setting the Scene

• Personal Trials at the Courthouse
  Ari shares anecdotes from his extended stay reporting at the Alexandria courthouse:
  • “I’m on like 11 days in a hotel room…eating multiple meals at a Starbucks every day.” (01:49)
  • “My fellow journalists only need to smell me for one more day…It’s like I’ve become one of the tribe.” (02:05)

2. Marketecture Live Announcements

• Startup Showcase Finalists:
  Eric brags about the diversity and quality of the five selected startups—spanning agentic workflow to creative AI: gg, Eliza, Epiminds, MadConnect, and Springboard. (03:03)
  • “It does a good job spanning all the interesting areas of AI that we’ve been talking about for…God knows how long…” (03:03)

3. Google Remedies: Structural vs. Behavioral

What’s at Stake?

• Nature of the Remedies Trial
  Ari: “They’ve already been found to be a monopoly. We’re not debating Google’s behavior—we’re debating what to do about Google’s behavior.” (04:51)

• Google’s Proposed Remedies:

  • Mostly “behavioral”—stop past practices like first look, last look, UBR.
  • Bid into prebid, opening opportunity for publishers (04:51).
  • Critics say these are partial—“most of the DOJ witnesses have poked holes left, right, center in those remedies…” (05:42).

• DOJ’s Proposed Remedies:

  • More aggressive behavioral limitations.
  • Headline: Spin out AdEx (Google’s ad exchange) as a separate company; open source DFP final auction logic; potential DFP ad server divestiture within 3 years (06:47).
  • “All the options are bad, basically, and the judge has to make sense of this.” (08:44)

Evidence & Arguments

• Revelations of a Possible AdEx Sale

  • Google explored selling AdEx in 2020 (“Project Sunday”), even hiring Lazard to do a deck. (09:45)
  • “It definitely seems…they were starting to feel the heat from regulations.” (10:25)
  • “AddEx has been sort of in the crosshairs as a not-vital and a pain in the ass for a long time.” (10:56)

• Debate over Divestment Feasibility

  • “I don’t think Google can really…straight face now argue that divestment of AdEx is impossible. It’s clearly possible.” (11:05, Alan)
  • Ari: “A lot of their [Google’s] effort has been around saying that the AdEx spin out’s impossible…Then evidence comes out they considered it multiple times. That line of argument is…disingenuous.” (11:44)

Market Implications

• Google’s Open Web Exposure
  Ari describes how the network business lags while YouTube thrives, and most AdEx demand is really just Google buying for YouTube:

  • “…70-something percent of AdEx is just Google AdWords buying AdEx…exposure to the open web outside of Google…is pretty small too. So these are all kind of like loss leaders…” (12:48)

• Will Google Jettison ‘Network’ Ad Businesses?
  Alan: “I’ve been saying for five years…Google’s going to jettison the network business as soon as they can…” (14:06)

• Litigation Strategy: Why Not Settle Now?
  Ari notes holding on might be about limiting liability:
  “If they give up…it’ll be the deluge. Like everyone and their brother will hire an attorney and come after them.” (14:19)

4. Judge’s Position and Behavioral Remedy Skepticism

• Behavioral Remedies vs. Trust Ari: “The judge has said…isn’t this a matter of trust? If there’s a court order, won’t they follow it?...No, you cannot. I mean, I…and I love the people at Google, but you can’t trust them at all.” (16:01)

  • Alan: “This is where I think the DOJ may be dropping the ball a little bit…If I were the DOJ I would be holding that in Judge Bergman’s face constantly.” (16:39)
  • Evidence Spoilation: Google’s use of ephemeral chats to avoid records—dubbed “corporate Snapchat.” (17:12)

• Open Source Ad Server Logic—Dead on Arrival?

  • Ari: “I think this open sourcing of the ad server logic has been debunked effectively in court…It’s really complicated…the DOJ has lost that issue.” (20:52)

• PubMatic Testimony:

  • Ari recounts a publisher’s testimony: “There’s some bug that Google refuses to fix…DV360 unable to bid through my path even though it works on others…and it’s been happening for eight months. That’s a great example…may not be malicious but it has the same effect.” (19:01)

• Key Determining Factor:

  • Ari: “If you don’t trust Google, AddEx spin out is the right remedy. If you believe a court order can rein them in…then you don’t need to spin out. That’s kind of where it’s at.” (20:52)

5. What If AdEx Is Spun Out?

• Competitive Landscape:

  • Eric: “If you were to start an ad exchange today…the competitive set is not what it was…10 or 15 years ago during the heyday of AdEx. Index is much further ahead.” (21:57)
  • Ari: “What do you have if not for the direct access to O&O Google inventory and the AdWords demand?" (22:52)

• Marketplace Challenges:

  • Running a DSP outside of Google’s embrace brings all the classic headaches: “discrepancies and cookie matching...latency…welcome to the free market, guys.” (23:32)

6. Broader Antitrust Context

• Other Tech Cases:

  • Alan: Facebook is a “loser” case for the government; search case “will be appealed to all hell…not going to end anytime soon.” (25:49)
  • Interesting side note on settlements—some (like Google’s $25m to Trump) are not subject to Tunney Act review, raising quid pro quo concerns. (27:09)

• Courtroom Color:

  • Ari: “There are troops with machine guns guarding the metros. The government got shut down today...Jim Comey was indicted in the building I’m in…” (27:37)

7. The WikiHow Witness: A “Case Winner” for Google?

• CEO of WikiHow’s Testimony:
  • “This witness was just straight out of central casting as a mid size publisher who just wants to survive in an era of AI.” (28:50)
  • Key quotes:
    • “I don’t care what take rate AdEx has…because the bids are net to me…” (29:35)
    • “I’d probably go out of business [without free ad serving].” (30:18)
    • “I really want to spend my time on all the problems we’re having with AI and don’t want to worry about ads right now.” (31:47)
  • Ari: “It may have won the case for Google because this witness…delivered the judge a perspective she wasn’t getting…” (29:13)

8. Industry News Round-up

a) OpenAI’s Coming Monetization

• Hiring & Job Postings Signal Ad Push:

  • “As much as Sam Altman is pushing back on this notion, like it couldn’t be clearer that ads are coming to OpenAI.” (34:40)
  • Stripe partnership for instant commerce in ChatGPT; focus on long-tail creators/merchants. (36:11)

• Content Creator Legal Tensions:

  • Opt-out (not opt-in) for Sora 2 training data raises future lawsuits/rights issues. (40:15, 41:07)

b) Trade Desk’s Big Shakeups

• AI-Driven Data Marketplace:

  • TTD’s new “Audience Unlimited” leverages AI to choose segments for advertisers, possibly commoditizing branded data. (42:36–44:59)
  • Ari: “If the AI can turn off bad data faster and save you money, that’s good…the usual people online…feel your actual take rate is higher because there’s more data fees…and this feeds into that.” (44:59)

• Third-Party Data Providers Face Reckoning:
  Alan: “A big shakeout…some will figure out how to leverage AI…others are going to pretend…and that’ll create challenges.” (45:46)

• Jeff Green Op-Ed & “Open Internet” Battle

  • Jeff Green (TTD) pushes back hard against Prebid.org’s changes, forks prebid for TTD’s own header bidding. (47:30–50:26)
  • “It was basically a middle finger to all efforts to clean up the Internet.” (49:33)
  • “If Jeff goes through with it and if they let him speak. It’ll be after this announcement.” (50:48)

• Amazon’s Aggressive Supply Consolidation

  • Amazon DSP lands exclusive supply deals with Netflix and Spotify.
  • Ari: “Access to supply is becoming a scale advantage to the biggest players. [Premium media owners] are not opening up to the top 10 DSPs…but to 1, 2, 3.” (57:37–58:18)

c) Spotify’s Platform Play “Stalls”

• Once-ambitious plans for SVOD-style open audio ad tech fade:
  • “As a user of their ad system…it’s so bad. Horrible. Clunky.” (59:00–59:09, Alan & Ari)

d) Vibe Fundraise

• Shout-out:
  • “Vibe raised a 50 million dollar Series B at a 410 million valuation…Hot space…executing like crazy.” (59:49)

Notable Quotes (Selected)

• On Google’s Strategy:

  • “If they give up…it’ll be the deluge. Like everyone and their brother will hire an attorney and come after them.” —Ari (14:19)
  • “I don’t think Google can really…straight face now argue that divestment of AdEx is impossible. It’s clearly possible.” —Alan (11:05)
  • “All the options are bad, basically, and the judge has to make sense of this and it’s really complicated and really technical.” —Ari (08:44)

• On Trusting Google:

  • “You can’t trust them at all. Right? Not even a little bit.” —Ari (16:01)
  • “There was a formal policy [at Google]…to push discussions onto a chat mechanism…set to shut off in 48 hours…which rendered the ability to figure out what was really going on over there over the last ten years nearly impossible.” —Alan (17:12)

• On the WikiHow Testimony:

  • “I love my AdEx account manager. I don’t have time to do a new integration…I’d probably go out of business [without free ad serving].” —WikiHow CEO (29:35–30:18)
  • “Every single one of them was a body blow to the DOJ’s proposal.” —Ari (30:37)

• On Trade Desk’s Power Play:

  • “He hit a breaking point…tid change…was basically a middle finger to all the efforts to clean up the Internet.” —Ari on Jeff Green (49:33)
  • “Can this not also be viewed as an attempt to exert more control over the open web?” —Alan (52:10)
  • “Maybe the way he's seeking more control…is a good thing.” —Ari (55:06)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:27] Ari’s courthouse “war stories” and panel intros
• [04:42] Remedies trial: what’s on the table, insights into behavioral vs. structural remedies
• [09:45] Google’s aborted 2020 plan to sell AdEx (“Project Sunday”)
• [14:06] Google’s stagnating network business & likelihood of jettisoning it
• [16:01] Judge’s attitude toward behavioral remedies & trust
• [17:12] Evidence spoilage: “corporate Snapchat”
• [21:57] Realities of spinning out AdEx and competing against Index, etc.
• [28:50] WikiHow CEO’s testimony and its likely impact on the case
• [34:40] OpenAI’s job postings and ad monetization plans
• [42:36] Trade Desk launches AI-powered Audience Unlimited data marketplace
• [47:30] Jeff Green’s “Open Internet” op-ed and prebid fork
• [57:37] Amazon lands premium supply deals with Netflix and Spotify
• [59:49] Vibe’s Series B funding and Ari’s exit from the board

Episode Tone

Candid, witty, occasionally irreverent, and exhaustively insider:

• Ari’s blend of “gonzo journalism” and in-the-weeds industry analysis.
• Banter about personal stress, tech egos, and courtroom eccentricities offsets deep dives into ad tech mechanics.

Conclusion

The episode delivers a comprehensive, no-nonsense look at the most consequential antitrust battle in ad tech, the likely futility of some remedies, and the evolving power landscape as AI, new monetization strategies, and consolidation reshape digital advertising. All filtered through firsthand reporting and months (or years) of expert context.

Best listened to if you want to cut through the noise and understand both the legal chess match and its real market consequences.