← Marketecture: Get Smart. Fast.
Marketecture: Get Smart. Fast.
Episode 144: Rich Greenfield on the State of Dying Media and What’s Going on with Paramount
01:00:23
Loading summary
Transcript177 lines
- [00:01]
A
This podcast is brought to you by Adelaide Media verification and measurement are undergoing major disruption. Legacy players are pivoting to performance advertising, AI is reshaping brand safety and attention is replacing viewability. Adelaide is leading the shift with au, a new way to assess media quality that scores placements based on their potential to drive attention and outcomes. Before your ads run, think of it like a credit score for media. Finally, a clear view of quality. Before you buy, take the guesswork out of your investment strategy and try Adelaide AU on your next campaign. This podcast is brought to you by Playwire. What if the real competitive advantage isn't choosing between human judgment and AI, but knowing when to use each? Playwire is launching a self service platform with rules based control and machine learning optimization. No more one size fits all monetization. At Architecture Live, we'll reveal performance Data including how one publisher saw 168% higher CPMs by choosing where to use human oversight versus automation. See the platform@playwire.com that's playwire.com.
- [01:21]
B
Welcome to.
- [01:22]
A
The market Extra podcast. This is Ari Paparo. I'm joined with Eric Franchi and our special guest Rich Greenfield, who's been here before. He's the partner at LightShed Partners and and a general partner at LightShed Ventures. Sort of an expert in traditional media or sometimes he refers to it as dying media. Eric.
- [01:43]
C
Which is amazing.
- [01:44]
A
Yeah, he's amazing. He's so funny.
- [01:46]
B
He's so good.
- [01:47]
C
Just the deepest encyclopedic knowledge of all things. Dying media retains so much data and information and just a fun guy to have a pod with. So no surprise he's a three time guest.
- [02:01]
B
Yeah.
- [02:01]
A
And I want to hear about traditional. Some of the moves with Paramount and the Ellisons and Warner Bros. And TikTok. It's really kind of complicated how all this stuff is kind of getting mashed together and I want to understand why should advertisers care? Should we care? Right. It's kind of, you know, it's just this. All this mergers and acquisition stuff in traditional land.
- [02:21]
C
Yep, totally agree. And it's been a big week for ad tech, so the refresh is going to be a big one.
- [02:27]
A
When has it not been a big week for edtech?
- [02:29]
C
This was a big one though.
- [02:30]
A
I think we have a whole new framework. AI the agents. We're going to replace this podcast with a bunch of agents talking about podcasts. Right.
- [02:41]
C
Will they have our humor though? That's the question.
- [02:43]
B
Probably better.
- [02:44]
A
Probably better. They're probably better. All right, so housekeeping, Architecture Live. I hate to Give everyone the bad news. You know, the bad news is sold out, so.
- [02:56]
C
Oh, man.
- [02:57]
A
So if you're listening to this and you didn't register yet, you're pretty much not coming. Don't text me, please. For the love of God, don't text me or text adtechgod. You know how to reach him. DM him everywhere. He's online, on Twitter, on LinkedIn. Just hit him as many times as possible, begging for a ticket. That's what we want. We are taking. We have a wait list. If you really, really want to go, you can register at Architecture Live and put down your credit card, but it won't be charged unless some tickets free up. But we have a stacked agenda. We have people coming. We just booked Peter Naylor, who's going to be in conversation with coachava about some interesting things they're doing with AI. The agenda keeps getting better as we fill in the last slots. So look forward to seeing everyone on the 27th, which is a week from the coming Monday. With that said, let's jump in with Rich Greenfield.
- [03:47]
B
I think it was.
- [03:48]
A
I was riding you up. We haven't even introduced you, and you're riled up.
- [03:54]
C
Guys, we're rolling.
- [03:56]
A
All right, listeners, we have Rich Greenfield, who will not be shy a third time podcast guest from LightShed Partners and LightShed Ventures. Rich, thanks for being here.
- [04:07]
B
Thanks for having me.
- [04:09]
A
So you get riled up about stuff, and we want to hear about it. So we want to bring you on because there's so much going on in what you'd call the traditional media side, legacy media side, but it's trying to catch up.
- [04:22]
B
So much nicer than saying the word dying.
- [04:24]
A
Yeah, yeah. It's not dying. Right. And everyone's drinking. We're all drinking. Right. It's just a matter of when, so. But there's so much interesting stuff going on. I'm really interested in Skydance, Paramount, and they are circling Warner Brothers, and they also have this TikTok deal, but it's not clear if the TikTok deal is not really Skydance, but it's Oracle. What is going on and why should we care? And what's going on?
- [04:51]
B
Well, look, I think you should care because Larry Ellison, when you say it's not Paramount, Right. The money behind Paramount is Larry Ellison. Right. There's, you know, no offense to the Skydance team that acquired Paramount, but it's being funded by Larry Ellison. He was the initial backer of Skydance to begin with. He drove the Paramount acquisition. You know, it's unclear. You Know, in a Warner Brothers situation, there is speculation that Larry will be the money. It sounds like now they're searching for private equity money. Whether that's true or debt financing, we'll end up seeing he clearly put in capital, meaningful capital into the TikTok acquisition, you know, in terms of Oracle. And Larry's the key behind Oracle. So, you know, you can sort of build this matrix of, you know, having your fingers in a lot of key places. You know, as AI is evolving, there's no doubt that Larry is sort of the mastermind above all of this. Not that David Ellison isn't running these businesses day to day, but there's clearly sort of a higher 4D chest like plan that you can emerge now look to be very clear for your. For your listeners and viewers. I'm very happy you have viewers now, Ari. The key is, you know, they don't own TikTok and they're not going to own TikTok. They're going to own 15% of TikTok. And so that's very different than owning and controlling. There will be an actual board and, you know, there will be a management team to be determined on TikTok. But I think it's fair to say that the, you know, something like Paramount and who knows if they end up buying Warner Brothers, but you would assume as a 15% owner that you'll be able to do things that are favorable. You know, will they be the, you know, go to source for news? You know, they. Paramount just bought the Free Press. Will you see, you know, a little bit of incremental exposure or certain things that they'll do. That preference, that content, you have to believe that would just make sense if you have better access to the management team and to the, to the company.
- [07:03]
C
Sure.
- [07:04]
A
So, okay, let's peel back the onion a little bit. So Paramount done. It's owned by Skydance. The Bari Weiss part of the team. She's the editor in chief of cbs. She's not. And that Warner Bro Brothers is.
- [07:19]
B
We call it Warner Bros. Too.
- [07:21]
A
Warner Bros. The Bros. At Warner is. Paramount's looking to buy the whole thing, including HBO and, and CNN and Discovery and everything. Right?
- [07:32]
B
I mean, if you read the press, yeah, certainly true.
- [07:35]
A
Now, is it possible they don't buy the whole thing, they just buy the studio and the other stuff spins out differently?
- [07:40]
B
Look, I think there's a chance that no deal actually happens in the next six to nine months. They wait for the company to split up and over the next couple of years try to just buy HBO in The studio. I, you know, is that a possibility, a real possibility?
- [07:54]
A
Absolutely.
- [07:55]
B
Like there is, you know, Warner Brothers is certainly not in a precarious situation. They don't have to sell. You know, I think there is a view of Wall Street. Even before this emerg, there was a view that the split would unlock value. The stock went from 6. $7 up to 1213 on excitement for a split. Now, it didn't get to 20 because of the split, but there's no doubt that there is excitement for smaller pieces that could be easier to digest by more companies.
- [08:22]
A
Now, a lot of people who listen to this podcast, I don't want to disparage them, but they're sort of ad tech people, right? So neither of these companies has a strong ad tech play, right? They're just, they're media companies, they're publishers, they make money on ads. But neither one of them owns, as far as I know, any really significant assets in the tech space pre TikTok. Right? Am I wrong there?
- [08:48]
B
I think, I mean, look, I would say traditional legacy media companies have not really put tech on the same pedestal that they put content creators. Like, they look at someone like Tom Cruise, but they don't look at a top engineer. You know, look at the way Mark Zuckerberg. I'm sure you've talked about it on this pod repeatedly, but look at the way Mark Zuckerberg is paying top engineers. Right? Like, but, but it's a really important but. But Ari, it's a critical point. Like Netflix treats engineers as rock stars, right? Like just the way they treat content and talent. That, that is not something you've seen in media companies. And I think the big question is, will David Ellison, you know, he obviously he's came from, you know, he's a disciple of, you know, comes from Oracle. He grew up walking the Apple lot and Steve Jobs and all of that. And so will he bring. You know, he's talked a lot about it. Like, if you think about sort of his commentary, I was at a conference last week where he spoke, you know, he. Even in his initial pitch for the Paramount acquisition, he. He's talking a big game about infusing technology and really rethinking how content is made, how it is marketed, how advertising is made and, and injected into this. But again, it's all talk for now. We haven't seen any of this. They've owned it for 75 days. Like, we haven't seen any of this future that you're talking about. That is only the hope. And I'd say None of the media companies that I look at have done a really good job on the ad tech side to date.
- [10:20]
C
Would say that they made one move last week by announcing Jay Askanazi as the CRO for Paramount. So it's a new role. There hasn't been a CRO at Paramount. John Halley, I think, reports to Jay now. Jay is an ad tech native. He worked at my first company, Undertone. He went to run, which was an early DSP led publicist. Revenue then went to Roku. So I think that's. You can count that as like a real move. But to your point, they're not acquired, they haven't yet acquired assets, they haven't yet reorged all that stuff.
- [10:53]
B
Hiring Jay is a great move. Like, I think it's a really interesting signal. Just the way hiring Cindy Holland to run Paramount plus and streaming, right, is a really smart move, bringing in a new team on the film side, like, they are making really interesting strategic hires. The question is though, that has to actually effectuate itself in terms of how they actually run the businesses. We need to see a difference in how they actually operate, right? And so I'm excited to see if they can bring in not just the people, but actually change how things are actually done. I mean, Barry Weiss just came in, right. Like, I know this is like, you know, this is like a heretic coming into, you know, an old school news organization. But you know what? Like, my kids don't know what CBS News is. My kids, like these companies all need to. It sort of goes to your comment earlier, Ari, about, you know, an investment in TikTok and like every single part of these companies needs to be blown up. I mean, you probably need. I know this, I feel bad saying this, but my guess is 70, 80% of the people that work in these businesses probably need to be fired, right? Like, these businesses are undergoing seismic changes. It's not just you need to have less people, which you certainly do, but you also probably need different people. Like, you need. Just like you're making the comment about bringing in Jay. Like you're going to need new people with new skill sets that understand how to build an audience in 2025 and beyond. And that is. And, and because you can't sell ads, right? Like, think about everything that you talk about on your, you know, in this podcast, Ari. It's about, you know, how do you deliver ads? Well, you need eyeballs, you need viewership. And my, my big focus is time spent. If you don't have time spent, you can't Deliver. And, like, who's winning time spent Right now, the big winner of time spent is YouTube.
- [12:48]
A
Yep.
- [12:49]
B
Yeah.
- [12:49]
A
It's all about distribution. Right. And when you talk about tech, you're talking about distribution in a sense, because that's how you get the eyeballs through really good apps and, you know, compelling social experiences and AI feeds and things like that. Right.
- [13:02]
B
But nobody is going through the Paramount library and streaming it on Paramount Plus. In fact, the content on Paramount plus actually gets more viewership when it's on Netflix. Right. Like, people are not binging on these platforms. Sure, they'll watch the latest episode of 1883 or that, you know, the Tight or Tulsa. What is it? Tulsa King. They'll watch an episode for sure. But they are not binging on these platforms. And if you don't have time spent, he can't do a lot on the advertising side. So, like, what Jay needs is not just, you know, money to spend on ad tech to build that. He also needs engagement. He needs lots of content and a product that literally causes people to spend a lot of time. And you only get a lot of time if you have a tremendous amount of content and a great underlying UI that understands the viewer and delivers them what they want to watch, when they want to watch it.
- [13:59]
A
So how does Warner Bros. Help that? Warner Bros. Gives them a lot more content, but doesn't solve the tech problem at all. Like, Warner Bros. Is not exactly a leader. Hbo, hbo, Max, Max, Max, hbo. Whatever it is right now, it gets more scale, but you don't actually get anything unique there.
- [14:14]
B
You don't. And, you know, look, if I was sitting in. If I was sitting in David Ellison's shoes, and I had 70, 80 billion dollars burning a hole in my pocket, I don't think I would be buying Warner Brothers. I think I would be literally realizing that, you know, you can actually go out and acquire anything you want. Look, he just bought ufc, right?
- [14:36]
A
What about Roku? Well, isn't Roku, like, the ideal acquisition here?
- [14:39]
B
I mean, look, Roku could be a very interesting acquisition. I mean, look, it's a large acquisition.
- [14:46]
A
It is.
- [14:47]
B
It doesn't generate cash flow. Right. It's just starting to generate a little free cash flow. So it would be a, you know, the distribution play.
- [14:56]
A
There's the distribution and tech play. I mean, you would reduce CHURN on your paid. If you had the device as well. There's no doubt you would reduce churn.
- [15:04]
B
Correct. I don't. You could certainly decide, just like we were talking about with TikTok. Right. Can you Lean on the button. Can you preference something? Absolutely. If you own the platform, the platform has a tremendous amount of power. And so look, we thought Walmart was going to buy Roku. We were wrong. They bought Vizio. We thought Comcast five or six years ago was going to buy Roku. We were wrong. They decided to do a joint venture that has largely gone nowhere. Sorry, Comcast, but you know, like there are many people that should have bought Roku. Now is Ro. Has Roku actually been for sale? Does Anthony want to sell? I don't honestly know that. He certainly has been right that the world has moved towards streaming. So I don't know whether he wants to sell. But again, if I were sitting in David Ellison's shoes, I would argue what you just said makes a tremendous amount of sense. Owning Roku as a tech building block makes a heck of a lot more sense than doubling down on content when the reality is you can acquire all of the great talent if you want. You know, think about House of Cards. House of Cards was going to go to hbo. Netflix overpaid for it. Like Hollywood Sports. All of these businesses, if you spend a lot of money, you can have everything. And so what you can't get though are platforms. And so platforms are really interesting. And so yes, I think that makes a tremendous amount of sense. But again, there's no synergy with that transaction. You know, you don't get Harry Potter, you don't get Superman, although I'm not sure you really want Superman. But like, you know, there is certainly the prestige of an acquisition like that. And so, you know, unfortunately I think it's, I don't think that's where their head is at, but it's where it should be. They should be thinking about how do we invest in world class tech and really try to own the customer and the platform. Now to be fair, Larry Ellison has the ability to do both. So I would also say that the.
- [17:03]
A
His fortune dwarfs the entire media business. X, Facebook and Google. So the, and we've heard this story about like we want to bring tech to the party back in the Hulu days and they bought, they bought Killara in and he did a great job creating the Hulu app and the experience and that was important but it wasn't the whole game. They were not a tech company. Ultimately they still were a Hollywood company. But anyway, I want to transition to TikTok. What is the current state of play? Is it acquired? Is it not? Is it. We're waiting on the Chinese. Are the soybeans involved? Do we have to trade soybeans for TikTok. What is going on?
- [17:36]
B
You know, over the next six months, this is supposedly done, but, you know, you wake up, I don't know about you, Ari, but like, I was hanging out Friday afternoon, and all of a sudden you see a, you know, a truth social post from our president saying we're putting 100% incremental tariffs on China. And then the next day it's, oh, it'll all be fine. Don't worry about it. You know, my point being, just because everything looks like it's moving forward, you know, this still depends on actually what is the state of relations between the US and China. And I'm. Look, I'd love to sit here and opine that I have any clue or clarity. I'm going to be brutally honest. I have no idea. Like, there is no way to predict what our president is going or not going to do on tariffs and international relations with China, let alone other countries over the next six months. So, yes, right now it feels like it's on a path towards. Actually, you know, again, it's not really a sale.
- [18:34]
A
What's the deal terms? What's the deal terms? As far as you know, right now.
- [18:38]
B
There is no sale of TikTok. They are creating a US separate entity. That US separate entity will house everything, including the algorithm. So you will transfer the algorithm into the US business, but that algorithm will be regularly updated from the Chinese algorithm. The US team will decide whether or not to accept those updates. You would presume. Unless there's some data security reason, but you would presume they will accept those updates. And so, you know, it puts more control in the US and on US land for those changes, obviously. But, you know, from a functional standpoint, from what I understand, Ari, you're going to be using the same TikTok app. You're not downloading a new app.
- [19:24]
A
Yeah, that was a rumor going around for a while that all the users are going to have to redownload. That's not true.
- [19:29]
B
It does not appear to be true. It looks like you will wake up one day and literally every single thing will look exactly and function exactly the same, except for the fact that the algorithm is now housed in the US versus in China. And there will be new owners because ByteDance will become a 19.9% owner. And you will have a whole group of new investors come in who are injecting some capital into it. And.
- [19:56]
A
And the new owners include Larry Ellison.
- [19:59]
B
Nothing's really changed.
- [20:00]
A
Yeah, yeah.
- [20:01]
B
From a. From a. If you're an advertiser. Nothing has changed.
- [20:04]
A
Nothing's changed. Right.
- [20:05]
B
The only thing that's changing actually is you are now less worried about it disappearing. So if you were worried about. If you were worried about ramping your spending because you didn't know whether. Oh, my God, was this not going to exist? Should I shift more of my budget to Meadow or should I shift my budget to Applovin or whoever? Like, now you're not worried about that. Right. Because now, you know, at least it certainly seems like TikTok is not going anywhere.
- [20:30]
A
Right, Right.
- [20:31]
B
So.
- [20:32]
A
And the owners, the new owners, as you understand it, is. Larry Ellison is involved, but Skydance is not directly. Is that correct?
- [20:39]
B
Correct. This is, you know, you are having. Oracle's an investor and you've got three new investors coming in, including Oracle. Oracle still do the data security, but you'll have three investors taking 15% each, including, you know, you've got a Middle east investor coming in, but you've got three, three new investors coming in. And then there's like a consortium for that remaining 5%. There's a consortium of a whole bunch of companies that we believe are companies like Fox and others that are like getting little tastes of TikTok, little taste of no real control or meaningful ownership.
- [21:16]
A
There was this rumor going around that Barron Trump was going to be on the board of directors of the new TikTok. I don't know if that was real or disinformation. No idea, no information. All right, let's transition to another favorite topic of ours, the one that, like, Richard and I like to DM about, which is the trade desk, everyone's favorite company. So I specifically want to talk about their operating system, Ventura, because that's really how it overlaps with mainstream media. And they have a deal with DirecTV. Their original deal with Sonos died. And you podcasted or wrote this shows. They are serious about being a TVOS competitor. Give me your bull case then.
- [21:54]
B
Well, I'll tell you, I didn't know, so I'm gonna. I wouldn't plead ignorance, but I would say I didn't realize that DirecTV, we've been very complimentary of the DirecTV operating system. The GENIE operating system actually works really well in integrating the linear world and the app world. But I didn't realize it was a Google. It was the Google, essentially Google TV infrastructure.
- [22:21]
A
Okay.
- [22:21]
B
Android TV. Yeah, right. So it's built on Android TV, so they couldn't actually go to it. So DirecTV could not go to a TV manufacturer and do an OEM deal. It was actually banned because only Google's allowed to do that with the Google tvos. By transitioning from Google TV to Ventura, it actually now opens up so that not just can Ventura do deals with TV OEMs, but actually this joint venture can. And so now you can actually have the genie. Ventura operating system could actually be natively installed on a TV. So just the way you think about how Google TV works beautifully with YouTube TV. So like if you, you buy a new Sony set and it has Google TV on it, YouTube TV is a beautifully integrated experience. I think now they're setting this up so that DirecTV stream with Ventura will be a beautifully installed and integrated experience between TV and apps on OEMs. Now those OEMs partners are not announced yet. Like so we're still. The key is this is not about devices today. This is a OS integration that. So you're basically swapping the Google OS for the Ventura os. The next step of this, I assume will be ces, will be OEM partnerships, whether that's TCL or hisense. I have, you know, you tell me, you probably have more insight than me, who is most likely. But my guess is you're going to see OEM integrations. But what this says, you've already hired Rob Caruso who came over from Google tv. He now is the head of product for Ventura. So you've made some big hires at Ventura. You've done this DirecTV deal. And meanwhile I think most of the industry believes that Ventura is dead on arrival.
- [24:06]
A
They. Well, waiting to see some. No one has a Ventura TV in their house, that's for sure.
- [24:11]
B
So you won't until the end of 2026, I would assume.
- [24:14]
A
What is the. I'm ignorant on the subject, I admit it. What is the current business model of DirecTV? Like what. What are they up to as. Because their core business of sort of satellite TV has been in decline. What's their strategy?
- [24:26]
B
Right now DirecTV has, I mean they still have their satellite business with millions of subscribers that have DirecTV satellite. It is private equity owned and it is really building out on the streaming side.
- [24:38]
A
So like.
- [24:41]
B
Their version of YouTube TV, which is called DirecTV stream and they've, you know, I'd say the one thing where they've been a leader in is creating packages, meaning slimmer packages, sports and news, kids and family. Like really trying to segment down into skinnier bundles far more so than others.
- [25:02]
A
So they're a virtual MVPD as well as a end to end player for people in rural areas.
- [25:07]
B
And I think Ultimately, that's probably more of their business.
- [25:10]
A
It's interesting. Yeah, yeah.
- [25:11]
B
Than anything else. They're leveraging their history, obviously, to get deals done. You know, their satellite legacy. But I think their core business going forward will be far more on the VMVPD side. Yes.
- [25:23]
A
Now, the last I had heard this is. I don't have any updated information, but several months ago, last time we talked about Ventura, I had heard they were having a really difficult time getting apps made for Ventura because the trade desk was insisting on UID 2 as a data framework there, and people like Netflix or Apple or Disney didn't want to participate on those terms. Have you heard anything on that or is that just still scuttlebutt?
- [25:51]
B
I haven't, but I'll say, you know, if you don't have YouTube, Netflix, Disney.
- [25:58]
A
Plus, you're dead in the water, right? Yeah.
- [26:00]
B
I mean, you might as well just shut it down. So, again, I don't know how this ends. All I know is there are five or six apps. Let's just say that if you don't have, you can't be in this business anymore.
- [26:12]
A
Yeah, totally. So, researching this episode, one thing I noticed was you had this, you had a predictions article, you had the 17 predictions for 2025 on your excellent blog, and, man, you're nailing it. A lot of them are hit it. And I wanted to kind of highlight a couple of them that maybe were worth conversations. So number four, search continues to move into apps and away from Google. That's kind of a toss up right now. I think it is.
- [26:43]
B
Because I think right now there's still this debate over where does what happens to search, Right? Like, I think, you know, this, this conversation of what does search look like? I mean, we're, we're sort of, we're sort of all waiting. Like, is OpenAI launching a browser? But there is no doubt. I mean, I look at little things, right? Are 800 million people around the world using Chat GPT now? Are they all abandoning Google? No. Do I know more and more people that are using ChatGPT for searching? Absolutely. Do I know more people using Perplexity? Yes. Do I see. I mean, I think you're going to see by the end of this year, Reddit roll out their new search, right? Like, they are becoming more and more of a destination. Like, I think there is more and more search behavior is shifting away. Now. On the flip side, Google's doing a lot on the AI front, right? Like, you look at Nano Banana, which is probably best in class, image creation. Built into Google and built into Gemini and you know, they're now putting, you know, Gemini is everywhere now inside of the Google ecosystem. They still haven't made the switch from that main Google experience. I mean, I feel like at some point in the next 18 months there won't be traditional Google search, but we'll see.
- [28:04]
A
I'm going to give an unsolicited plug for the acquired podcast that came out with their third Google episode this week. And it's entirely about Google's AI history. And it is fascinating how they were ahead of the game, then they missed the ball, then they came back and how all the other companies interacted with them, including why OpenAI was even formed in the first place. It is a really must listen. Even though it's like four hours long. Oh my God, four hours. They talk slowly. So you can do 2x, you do 2x speed on that is the bet.
- [28:34]
C
That some of these Chrome changes are going to be what, you know, basically preserves Google's position in AI.
- [28:40]
B
Well, let me go a step further. You know, you've read the reports, I'm sure, like I have is we all know that now. We all are well aware that Google's a monopoly and there's the world can do about it, correct? Yeah. So that's what we've learned. I'm just quoting the judge, I'm not making this up. So if you are a monopoly and you can't do anything about it, if you're Google, do you go out and sign the same deal you did for search with Apple? Right. Like, does does Gemini become the default inside of iPhones? Like, I think that's sort of. To me, what's really interesting is just sort of, you know, the. Is there a world where Google has the same sort of global power in an AI world because they become the default everywhere it's possible. And so, you know, I do think that search is moving more into apps and I think it's sort of unavoidable. On the other hand, Google is certainly flexing its muscle and finding new ways to expand its use cases every single day. And it's certainly like there are some best. I mean, I look at nanobanana, like there are some best in class products.
- [29:48]
A
Yeah, bad name, good product. You know, an interesting thing. A lot of people who aren't following it too closely think the search trial's over and everything's fine and Google got away with it. There's actually quite a bit of action going on with Judge Meta, because exactly what you just said, Rich, which is Google is pushing the limits on their bundling with Android and the judge is listening to the complaints about, you know, you have to use Maps, if you also use Android, stuff like that. So there is some regulatory pressure there that's still ongoing. So one other one from your predictions list, we'll put the full thing in their show notes or our newsletter. We don't do show notes. So you predicted pharmaceutical ads were going to be banned. Has your opinion changed on that?
- [30:28]
B
I mean it certainly is moving in that direction. I mean, you know, again, I shouldn't say banned. I don't think there's. Yeah, and I guess banned is a harsh word. I mean, look, I think that's what RFK wants. But, but there's a way to accomplish a ban that actually isn't a ban. Right. Because the disclosure requirements changed. You know, if you go back, you know, 20 plus years, like there were very little in terms of pharma ads on television because you had to give, you know, full disclosure of every single thing. Not like the, you know, right now you see like a link to a website to learn more and they give sort of a brief overview of all of the disastrous side effects from these drugs on tv. But before that you had to give like you had to literally spell it all out. You couldn't link to a website or post a phone number to learn more information. If you. And Trump is in RFK with Trump is trying to roll back those changes. If you roll back those changes, that's effectively banning because you don't have, unless you believe, Ari, that we're going back to two minute ads on tv. And if you go back before this change was made, pharma ads was like sub 1% of advertising on TV. So all of this was enabled by not having to give full disclosure to everything on television to this. And so I think there's still a world like I would keep my eye on this. I still think over the next 12 months there is real push to have something happen here. And so I don't think I'm going to be right in 2025 on this, but I could be right in 2026. And again, I shouldn't say banned because it won't be banned. It will just be so hard to do. It'll effectively feel like a ban and they're going to sue and they're going to go to the Supreme Court. Like they're going to fight this tooth and nail. This is not going to be a quick and easy win. But I do think that there's A lot of push here. It's going to get harder.
- [32:21]
A
All right, I pretty much agree with that point of view as well. Okay. We could talk for hours, but we have a limited amount of attention span. We don't do four hour podcasts. So we will take a quick break and then we'll come back with the refresh. News of the Week.
- [32:37]
B
Exclusive Inventory Fragmented.
- [32:39]
A
Tech High minimums Programmatic is built for.
- [32:43]
B
The few, but advertisers need scale without the complexity. Adlib sits above it all, orchestrating activation, optimizing 24, 7, 365 and giving you back 40% of the time spent juggling multiple DSPs and media partners. One login every platform.
- [33:05]
C
No trade offs.
- [33:06]
A
Go to getadlib.com G-E-T a--l I b.com.
- [33:16]
C
Welcome back. We have a lot for the refresh this week. Oh my God. We're gonna have to prioritize. We've got recaps from the pre vid conference, We've got the launch of ADCP Walmart partnering with ChatGPT, more on AppLovin, Spotify video. We're not gonna get to all this unless we speak really fast, so let's just jump right in. Ari, you spoke at the pre bid conference earlier this week as well as TTD via Jeff Green and Michael Sullivan. So we'd love to get your take on the day what you talked about and then we'll get it to TTD. Sure.
- [33:50]
A
Prebit.org runs a good conference. It is very techy, it's deep in ad tech. A lot of the people who are in the audience are engineers or adopts types of people. There was a lot of in the weeds conversations, but I'd say the three highlights were my speech, the Kickstarter it off Brian o' Kelly that talked about Come on man. Brian o' Kelly who did the afternoon and then Jeff Green who did the later in the day. Mine was about the open web is dead, but there's still enormous amount of opportunities. That would be kind of my summary of what I talked about. Everyone who listens to Spot probably hears me enough to know that o' Kelly gave a really good talk. He's become a really excellent public speaker and he effectively compared the emergence of AI protocols to header bidding, which of course he claimed to have invented. But we won't quibble about that. And he set up the what we'll talk about in a moment that he was launching the Ad Context protocol the next day and then Jeff Greens was hysterical because basically he comes up and he says, and by the way, Jeff, please come on the show. I know you want to, but we can't seem to get you on here. But like he came up and he started out by saying like, you know, we need a header wrapper that buyers trust, which is, you know, context. We don't trust you hosts of this event that has me speaking. Then he said, and therefore we have our own. We've forked your product into our product open ads. And then o' Sullivan came up and talked about the product roadmap and what they were releasing with the open ads wrapper and the, the features they're releasing. Are these controls that of that kind of protect buyers against any kind of, kind of shenanigans. Like it's like digital signatures and things like that. As well as a reversal of pre bid's recent decision to remove the transaction id. It all sums up to like, we don't really trust you, the publishers or the ad tech community. And we're taking control of this thing and we're going to buy it through ourselves, which I thought was a pretty audacious thing to do at the conference of the organization that you're effectively snubbing. I'm sure they wouldn't want that characterization, but that's really what's going on here. So it was pretty audacious and I don't know what the reaction is going to be.
- [36:15]
C
How was it received day of.
- [36:18]
A
I think it was, I think people felt sort of the way I was speaking about it, they were, they're like, huh, this is interesting. Our publishers really going to adopt this. As a, as a ad tech person should I want this to be adopted? Because I'm now, you know, out of the frying pan into the fire. Now the trade desk controls the framework that I am dependent on. I'd be better off with a open source one, even though this is open source. So yeah, I think there's a lot of uncertainty about open ads and its future.
- [36:49]
C
Yep. And then they also. Did they launch Pub Desk concurrently or was that just another announcement this week?
- [36:54]
A
I wasn't clear. Yeah, I think they did, but I wasn't really sure if they were what, what was new and what was not new. So yeah, there's a sort of a portal for publishers to understand the quality of their inventory, which is effectively like Revamps and Sera Sinceera. Yeah, right.
- [37:08]
C
Yeah, yeah, okay. All right. And then the next day we had the launch of ADCP. So ADCP is AD context protocol. You can see it@adcontextprotocol.org what's interesting is Box set it up the day prior and he dropped a good blog post. We'll link to it explaining it morning of but this wasn't necessarily like a Scoped 3 announcement. It was actually 20 companies participating in this which I thought was like pretty impressive and I give them a lot of credit. This seemed like a movement and not just an announcement by a company. It was a one hour webinar. Hopefully it's going to be available. A bunch of interesting things were covered and discussed but maybe the most interesting thing was a demo where a scope 3 agent bought an ad from another agent from Swivel. Both companies we have investment in and it showed what this thing might look like in the wild as a V1. So I thought it was really impressive. They had 1900 people on the webinar and really a lot of people are excited.
- [38:15]
A
Yeah, I think first I want to give props. Okelley's done a great job. He's worked his ass off. This is a very mature set of documents and examples for a first launch. This isn't just like, you know, half assed. People forget that when pre bid launched it was really half assed. Like they only had like one integration and this is much, much more mature. He and I've talked to Kelly. Him and I spent a half an hour on the phone yesterday talking through what, you know, our various opinions about this and I told this to his face which was I think this is incredibly promising. But the use cases that are the sexiest are also the hardest. The use cases that this protocol supports that are not sexy. Like a publisher asking for creative and the advertising advertiser's agent saying oh I need to resize that and then sending a request to Celtra to resize it and then putting it in the publisher's ad server. That's a huge benefit. Like that is not sexy. No one makes money on that. But it saves so much time and so AI for creative is like a massive win and but what's sexy is this buying and selling behavior which has a lot of conflicts of interest. And I've been down this road. I've built products that try to do this and like you have pricing issues. You have what happens if I place an order using my AI and then I need to cancel it early? What if there are discrepancies? What if the publisher doesn't want to reveal the rate card to me and my agent wants to buy something but the rate card doesn't align with my pre existing deal with them? It is really a hornet's nest of issues. And I told Brian that and he had some really interesting good answers. And I think that use case is where Scope three potentially benefits the most. Right. So that's the emphasis. But let's not take away from the fact that having protocols for all these other connections is vitally important.
- [40:01]
C
Yep. A bunch of people have been talking about that. This is like really significant in, you know, advancing ad tech, advancing, you know, ad tech as a, you know, use case for agentic. Would you agree that this is like really big?
- [40:16]
A
I think it's a, it's a really important milestone. We don't know what adoption is going to be, but if this didn't exist, you would have every point to point solution trying to figure out how they would work together. Because basically just saying to an agent like, hey, I want to find out what segments are available contextually in the UK is very different from the vendor. You're asking about it having a structured set of data sent back to you. Right. That structure is kind of what this protocol does. So having the structure is really important and it opens up the creativity that we don't know where it's going to lead or how fast it'll be adopted.
- [40:55]
C
Yeah, the fact that it's an open standard is a big deal that could help accelerate it. Rich, have we totally lost you?
- [41:02]
B
You are definitely outside of my core expertise for sure.
- [41:07]
A
Guys, do you think. Rich, let me ask you this. If I were to go to a senior executive at a big media company, let's say Paramount, Paramount has a new CRO. Let's say we asked Mr. Ashkenazi about this and said, hey, are you gonna willing to have an AI agent sell some of your ad inventory to other AI agents? What do you think they would say?
- [41:27]
B
I mean, look, you know, it's funny because like, when you think about somebody like Mark Zuckerberg, right. Zuck basically wants you to just take your bank, your checkbook, hand it to him, tell him your objective, you know, which is like move cars off lots or Coca Cola cans off shelves. And he wants to do everything else. He wants to do the creative, he wants to do the ad placement, decide where it goes, when it goes, which product it goes into. Like he doesn't want you picking Reels vs WhatsApp. Like he just wants to do everything right. You know, I think if you look, Jay might be a little different because Jay comes from the Roku world and sort of is seeing the move towards programmatic and the move towards. But, but I'm Telling you, there is so much, there's so much legacy thinking across this media world. I think what you just described, like I can't imagine that happening. It's just so hard to imagine these companies doing that part of it. Remember, like, there's even challenges like there are, you know, you can't just advertise on the NFL. Like you have to be an approved advertiser to advertise on the NFL. You know, like there are so many things that go into this, you know, in terms of making sure that they have the right advertisers on the right program. And I mean, sure, there's places that'll take anything. I mean look at, you know, go back to the early Fox News days. But I do think that sort of this idea of like just let anybody in and we'll figure out like how, where it goes and when. And that whole world, I think TV will be the last to adopt. You know, TV is going to be the last on that, you know, in that adoption curve.
- [43:10]
A
Yeah. I also think that it may be similar to RTB where, you know, the early days of RTB it was a lot of this, like, oh, any buyer around the world could buy, any seller around the world. And it didn't end up that way. You ended up, it ended up being rails on which intermediaries worked. So the business deals were already set like the publicist to Disney annual deals done at Cannes or done to the upfront exists and then use RTB on a day to day basis to figure out which spot buys. And it could be a very similar situation here. Authorized buyers, authorized sellers with authorized bots that already have pre approved pricing and then they negotiate some more of the details.
- [43:50]
B
But in the scheme of advertising, this is sort of irrelevant, right? Like.
- [43:57]
C
Hold on, is it, is it though? Right?
- [43:59]
B
Because if we, if we believe TV is shrinking, I just mean like, sure. When you're moving from, we're moving from a world of 22 minutes an hour of advertising spots from 100 million households to a CTV world where lots of people have ad free and the ones that do have ad platforms, what is there, there's five minutes an hour. Like, you know, you've shrunk the available inventory dramatically. You, you know, just the, the, the Overall, you know, GRPs to buy are just, you're just in a very different world. And I compare that to what Ari brought up at the beginning of the show. And you're talking about TikTok, right? And you're talking about Meta and you're talking about YouTube, like the skit and Amazon, which we haven't even mentioned in here, which is, you know, certainly been pressuring trade desk and all of that on like you think about sort of that whole scaled business. And I just think in the scheme of total advertising, as you look out five to seven years, like the TV piece is going to be so small relative to this massive world of advertising above and beyond.
- [45:00]
C
Yeah.
- [45:00]
B
And we haven't even talked about what AI advertising looks like. Like, what is that going to look like? Like, as we use more and more AI applications, you know, and let alone, you know, we're using our voice or we're using our eyes or whatever it may be, I'm not sure what advertising looks like in that environment at all. I mean, the device and the, the ingestion mode of advertising feels like it's going to go through seismic changes that no one's talking about. Only because I think nobody knows.
- [45:29]
C
Okay, continue, Rich, what does AI advertising look like in your view?
- [45:33]
B
I think it depends on what the consumption looks like. I mean, I'm looking at your glasses and they're not the meta glasses, but they certainly could be like the form factor of your glasses. Eric looks a lot like the meta glasses. If you have a screen in those meta glasses, is it an ad on the inside of that screen? Are you projecting things the way Snap's going to show off their new or their new specs operating system, you know, later today at Lens Fest, like, you know, is it overlays on the real? Like, I just think we don't. And you think about sort of all of these questions around bidding and who shows up first and how this ad slot. Like, just think about a world where the goal of AI, right, is to give you the right answer. So where does the advertising fit in? Right? Like there could be an affiliate fee. You can get an affiliate fee for, for helping connect whatever comes up as the right answer. So you know, you want to go to the best restaurant in Las Vegas and it shows you. Like, let's just say it shows you Carbone and you book Carbone, they can get a fee off of that. But I don't think you want an ad stuck in that isn't the best restaurant in Las Vegas when you're asking it for the best restaurant. And so it's just there is a real challenge when your whole system is built to give you one right answer. It does seem like how advertising fits and look when you see things like Sora. Like, you certainly can envision where ads could live in an AI world. For sure. But, but in terms of the chatbot experience and to the extent that the chat bot experience is the future, and I'm sure we could debate that and I will certainly listen to the four hour podcast you mentioned, but I don't, I honestly don't think anybody knows right now. And I think it's what every brand is worried about is what does this world look like as consumer behavior changes. The more agentic it becomes, the more you have it do things for you like, right. Like the less odds of seeing ads. I mean the whole retail media business, what happens to that if you tell it to go fill up your shopping cart or go deliver food, you know, I want a taco from blah blah, blah, delivered to my door. And you don't go to the grubhub or you don't go to doordash to go do it. You don't see the retail media ads.
- [47:51]
A
Product placement, free, free giveaways.
- [47:54]
B
Again, I'm not saying I, I can envision things. Ari and Eric, the question is, do they scale the way the traditional business is scaled? Right.
- [48:02]
A
Like, well, that's the one thing I will say we should close this up. But like the one thing I will say about that is like an AI protocol removes the problem of scale to some extent. Where one of the problems in media is that buying small things is not economical. Small amounts of media is not economical because it takes the same amount of energy as buying big things and AI potentially can overcome that so that you could potentially run different ads on best restaurant in Vegas versus best restaurant in Cincinnati versus whatever. And so that's, that's one of the interesting technology angles here. But it doesn't change the consumer behavior changing for sure.
- [48:40]
C
This is related. So this week Walmart announced a partnership with ChatGPT. It was light on details, but effectively implies that when you make some sort of search on ChatGPT and Walmart has a product, that product will be able to be automatically bought via ChatGPT. Which is interesting because Walmart.
- [49:04]
B
Yeah, I, I presume it's more like Spotify, like where you mention like you go, you know, hey, make me a playlist on Spotify. Now I assume it's like, hey, I need, you know, I need some diapers. You know, I want, you know, organic diapers for my kid. Like can you get them from Walmart and deliver them, you know, with my Walmart Connect account and it will recognize that you said the word Walmart. Connect your Walmart, you know, plus account and you'll get them delivered to your door within 48 hours. That's what I presume it will look like. Maybe it'll be just generic, like just they have it and they'll go find it. It's possible.
- [49:40]
A
Yeah.
- [49:41]
C
Yeah, that's the question. Is this going to be around the best product possible or make it convenient for me to order via Walmart? You know, with, with my account, Amazon has 40% of U.S. e commerce, Walmart has only 6%. So, you know, going down this path that we've been talking about of consumers changing searches, changing shopping, this could be a really big opener for Walmart in a, in a new era.
- [50:06]
B
It does strike me though, like there's not a lot. This goes back to how Ari started out the podcast earlier on in terms of one of our predictions in terms of search moving into apps. Like, let's just be clear, why are you going to ChatGPT to buy something in Walmart versus well, you're looking for the best product.
- [50:24]
A
You're looking for product. Product searches is a big thing to do on ChatGPT and we all know Google is not the best for it.
- [50:30]
B
But I'm saying if you want to buy something in Walmar, yeah, don't you just go to Walmart. They have effectively every product. So.
- [50:38]
A
But what if you don't know what you want to buy? So the issue, the issue is that the search on, for shopping right now you can search on Google, you can search on Amazon, you can search on Walmart, and none of those searches is really that great. You can't ask really complicated interactive questions on any of them. Whereas on an AI driven search you can, you could ask not just for cloth diapers, but, but you could ask for all kinds of variations on that conversation. You know, hypoallergenic, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
- [51:05]
B
I'm so excited about Reddit because I think this data lives in Reddit, like real human user experience. And either ChatGPT is going to pay Reddit to access that data or they're going to lose access and Reddit's going to take more of that traffic over time.
- [51:19]
A
Yeah, but Reddit has the problem, which is increasingly the SEO jerks are filling Reddit with garbage. So Reddit has a real problem with its content quality. There's all these agencies that are just creating subreddits just for the purpose of altering the AI result, which is really a problem. It's the slop Internet, the dead Internet.
- [51:39]
B
It seems like you need to get Steve Huffman on your podcast.
- [51:43]
A
Yeah, I think that's right.
- [51:45]
B
I think Steve, come On, you're great. Come on.
- [51:47]
C
Absolutely. Let's shift into something that's like more in your wheelhouse, Rich, which is this announcement Spotify had with video podcasts coming to Netflix. So in an age where distribution is everything, all of a sudden now video podcasts have real distribution. What's your take on this one?
- [52:03]
B
Well, I think I would have a slightly different take what you just said. I think Spotify has been, you know, Lee Brown built a pretty remarkable ad business on Spotify from, you know, literally from nothing over the last several years. On the flip side, when you think about a couple of billion dollar ad business relative to the scale of the other platforms that we look at, but it was still relatively small and you know, I think part of it is Spotify still sort of gets stuck in the audio world. Like, you know, to me, it's funny, I think about why my podcast works. I think about why your podcast works. It's because they're incredibly intimate experiences. Like you have somebody in your ear on a weekly basis, you build a real relationship. Like I think it is one of the most compelling forms of media consumption. Truly transformative if you can get, if you can hook somebody into a podcast, like you own that consumer. And so it should be an incredible medium for advertising. Unfortunately, I think it's still sort of seen as video is the nirvana. Audio is, you know, not even second, not only second year, it's like 10th. Right. Like it just doesn't, like, it's just not what people want. And video, while growing very rapidly on Spotify is still not their core. And so I think getting you, you have these podcasts, getting them where you're actually getting paid by Netflix for this content, but also the, just the distribution on Netflix. And so those host red ads now are not just on Spotify audio and video, but now they're across the entire US Netflix and eventually, you know, a lot of their ad markets around the world, I think that's a pretty big deal for helping Spotify grow the distribution for their ad business like that. Their problem is they need more video viewers, Video first viewers. Not that you can't listen to, you know, something on Spotify. There's no doubt you can just listen and not watch. But I think having a video first destination is sending a very strong signal that Spotify wants to grow its, its ad business.
- [54:06]
A
I'm looking forward to the market extra podcast getting distributed so that we can tell people like just, just you know, architecture and Chill, baby, come on over. Let's, let's listen to Eric And Arian Chill.
- [54:16]
B
I mean, think about. But, I mean, it's a step back, but if you think about it, think about how many people have the Netflix app on every device.
- [54:26]
C
Everybody.
- [54:26]
B
Like, it's a very smart move in terms of video consumption. And look, there's definitely a competitive element with YouTube, right? Like, YouTube has been really barking loudly about their podcasting and that they are the number one destination for video podcasting. You know, Netflix is in a war. You know, they're. Not that they're in a war, but, like, because the reality is Netflix and YouTube are really crushing everybody else. But there is certainly a very keen awareness of time spent. This goes back to what a lot of these legacy media companies don't understand. In a war for time spent, you want more, more, more, and especially cheaper. Here's a great example of Netflix acquiring relatively inexpensive content that takes away from a competitor and gives them something unique.
- [55:15]
A
Spotify. I know I've said this before. They got to get their act together on the product side. Like this video. We're recording this in video. You're probably listening to it audio only. But you cannot listen to this on video on Spotify. They don't let you. For as an independent podcaster, if I upload a video to Spotify, the ads stop working and I don't make any money. So we only upload audio to Spotify because of their broken product suite. Whereas if you want to watch this on video, you have to go to YouTube.
- [55:40]
B
If they were there, if you. If they sold the ads for you, though, I assume it would work.
- [55:45]
A
Yes, that's correct. They. They systematically do not support host red ads in video on Spotify, which is our business model.
- [55:53]
C
Come on, Spotify.
- [55:54]
A
So go to Spotify.
- [55:56]
B
Yeah.
- [55:57]
C
Hey, we're at the hour mark. Do you want to end it here? You want to talk about one more? One or two more things?
- [56:02]
A
I could go another five minutes. Let's do one more.
- [56:05]
C
Okay. What do you want to pick? Rich Media.
- [56:10]
A
Rich Media Club. Let's do Rich Media Club. Right? Because I'm sort of. I'm deep in this one.
- [56:15]
C
Okay, let me set the stage. Rich Media Club is the most amazing name ever, by the way.
- [56:20]
A
It is.
- [56:21]
C
It's a real entity. It's a Holdco Rich Media Club llc. They are suing publishers like Comcast, Guardian Media, and Gannett for common practices like ad refresh and lazy loading because they.
- [56:34]
A
Have a patent on them. Yeah. So Rich Media Club. I did a little research. Didn't take more than five minutes.
- [56:39]
B
It's the successor Company I didn't know about.
- [56:43]
A
Exactly. Rich. Rich. Rich Greenfield Media. No, Rich Media Club is a successor company to a failed company called RealView. That's VU, which has been defunct, which has been around since for like 20 years. And you know what I'm just going to say from my experience in this industry is there's a lot of patents around what we call rich media. How the ads actually behave, how they load, what they do on the page. It's a patent minefield. And it's almost always some loser company that died in the 90s that has these patents and they tend to come after publishers. And so the lesson here, there is a lesson which is like ad tech contracts need to have indemnification in them because this is exactly the situation where you may work with a vendor who says our ads do the coolest thing. They shake on top of your page and then shaking on top of the page turns out to be patented by somebody else. And it's really the vendor who provides this tech who needs to indemnify you. And I've seen this happen over and over again. I've been an expert witness in some of these cases because I was involved in rich media in background to 2004. So I kind of have the history here. And it's just a really dangerous area of technology where you have to be.
- [57:56]
C
Protected of all things rich media.
- [57:59]
A
Yeah, I mean it's not so simple as putting a square box on the page apparently. Eric, you must have some patents from your undertone days, right? Did you guys patent anything?
- [58:07]
C
We definitely patented things. Parian owns them, I'm sure. Yeah.
- [58:13]
A
Do they have a patent on like buying really expensive gifts for agency buyers? Media buyers? Is that like the Sorry catching strays over there?
- [58:24]
C
It's been 10 years. I don't know what the status of that stuff is. Anyway, we'll put the app Love in News in the newsletter. It's another semi juicy one that was discovered this week, but I think we're at time.
- [58:38]
A
All right, well, Rich Greenfield, you're our three time attendant host or co host of the of the Market Extra podcast. You don't get a robe just yet. I think we'll wait till five. A robe. Thank you so much. A robe or a blazer? I'm sorry? Blazer. I like a robe better.
- [58:54]
B
I don't even know what to do with that. I mean, so many things flashed into my head about being canceled. Like I. I don't even know where to begin with that.
- [59:03]
A
So just keep the draw strand.
- [59:05]
B
Honestly, Ari, I I would settle for a pin.
- [59:09]
A
Oh, pin.
- [59:09]
B
Yeah, we can at your conference, right? Like, you can hand out pins or something. Let's keep it simple. Let's keep it very simple, Ari.
- [59:17]
A
All right.
- [59:18]
B
No clothing, please. No clothing.
- [59:21]
A
Rich, you'll be there in two weeks.
- [59:23]
B
My hope in the rich media world is I just hope that the autoplay video ads on CNN disappear. Like, I just hope that some of these awful experiences powered by rich media go away in an AI world.
- [59:36]
A
All right, that's a good place to call it. All right, thank you, everyone for listening. And Rich, thanks for being here.
- [59:42]
C
We'll see you next week, everybody.
- [59:44]
A
Thank you for subscribing to marketecture. New interviews are added every week at marketecture TV in your favorite podcasting app. Thank you for listening to the Market podcast. New episodes come out every Friday and an insightful vendor interview is published each Monday. You can subscribe to our library of hundreds of executive interviews at marketecture tv. You can also sign up for free for our weekly newsletter with my original strategic insights on the week's news at News marketure tv. And if you're feeling social, we operate a vibrant Slack community that you can apply to join@adtechgod.com.