Episode Overview

Title: How Publishers Can Get Paid for AI
Podcast: Marketecture: Get Smart. Fast.
Host: Ari Paparo (with co-host Eric Franchi)
Guest: Matthew Goldstein (MSG)
Release Date: December 5, 2025

This episode unpacks the critical question facing digital publishers in the age of large language models (LLMs): How can publishers get paid when AI systems ingest and reproduce their content? Industry veteran and “publisher whisperer” Matthew Goldstein (“MSG”) joins Ari and Eric for a deep dive into the evolving mechanisms for content licensing, the current power dynamics between tech giants and content creators, and the nascent marketplace efforts that could reshape the future of publishing and AI.

Main Discussion Themes

1. The Death of the Publisher Newsletter and the Shift to Social (03:24–07:14)

• Matthew Goldstein shares why he stopped his in-depth “What I Saw Happen” newsletter, explaining the lack of feedback and high cost through Mailchimp, in contrast with the richer interactions he now gets on LinkedIn.
• Quote:

  “I could do a post today [on LinkedIn] and I get hundreds of comments back. And it feels like it's so much more immediate with what's happening in the industry...”
  — Matthew Goldstein (04:14)

• Conversation on the difference between “owning” an audience via email newsletters vs. “renting” one via social platforms, and why Goldstein just doesn’t care anymore given his career stage.

2. AI and the Publisher Content Crisis (09:19–11:45)

• The hosts frame Goldstein as “the most connected man in publishing” and probe his current read on publisher challenges.
• Goldstein notes publishers are less worried about traffic drops now and more obsessed with LLMs scraping their content without compensation.
• He’s “all in” on solving the problem of how publishers get paid for content being consumed by AI.
• Quote:

  “How do publishers get paid for the content that is being stolen by all the big foundational models over the past three-plus years? … That’s all I care about.”
  — Matthew Goldstein (11:36)

3. Three Solutions: Upfront Deals, Legal Action, and Marketplaces (11:45–14:32)

A. Upfront Licensing Deals

• A small number of highly publicized deals (e.g., Reddit, New York Times) — often between tech giants with personal relationships.
• Many such deals are expiring or not being renewed; questions about sustainability.
• Quote:

  “We also joke around that they did the first deal and the second deals will never happen… publishers are trying to figure out what do I do now? How do I make up for that lost revenue?”
  — Goldstein (12:32)

B. Blocking & Technical Defenses

• Growing use of tools like Cloudflare, Akamai, and Fastly to block AI bots from scraping.
• Inconsistency among publishers; only about 22-23% of known AI bots are being effectively blocked.
• Memorable anecdote: Goldstein recalls hitting an actual red button at the World Trade Center to start Cloudflare's blocking of bots (15:03).

C. Marketplaces for Real-Time Content Licensing

• The “big idea”: AI/LLM developers and vertical industry players (like banks, retailers) would pay to access specific pieces of content in real time, using an exchange/marketplace model.
• Tension: Lots of seller (publisher) willingness, but little proven buyer demand yet.

4. The Future of the Web: Human vs. Agentic (16:44–19:27)

• Goldstein predicts a bifurcation:
  • Human Web: People directly visiting websites (skews older).
  • Agentic Web: Personal “agents” (LLMs, bots) aggregate and deliver individualized content feeds.
• This shift could dramatically increase the frequency and volume of content accessed, though most will be machine-mediated.
• He posits that “quality” will be directly tied to the richness and accuracy of licensed content, giving business momentum to these new marketplaces.

5. Deep Dive: Mechanics and Challenges of Publisher-AI Marketplaces (20:06–29:30)

Key Insights

• Number of Marketplaces: Goldstein tracks at least 22 groups trying to create such exchanges; the two biggest are Microsoft and the IAB.
• Buyer Problem: Many sellers (publishers) but few buyers (LLMs, tech companies).
  • Quote:

    “The problem with these marketplaces — they’re like dating marketplaces. Lots of sellers, very few buyers.”
    — Ari Paparo (20:22)

  • Goldstein and Franchi agree that without robust buyer interest, marketplaces struggle.
• Verticalization: Niche LLMs (e.g., in finance, commerce) could be a way forward, with vertical-specific platforms willing to pay for timely, high-quality data.
  • Goldstein’s scenario: Imagine JPMorgan Chase’s app delivering personalized, paywalled news from major financial publishers, all licensed via a content exchange (22:06–23:09).

Monetization Mechanics

• Real-time payments: When an LLM or NLM (niche language model) answers a question, it pays for each article referenced in real time.
  • E.g., “Should I sell my Bitcoin?” triggers the LLM to pull the latest relevant articles and pay per use. (25:32–26:47)
• Comparison to Existing Models: This approach differs from Yahoo Finance's traditional bulk licensing by introducing per-article, real-time compensation.

6. Implications for Publisher Business Models and Advertising (29:36–30:49)

• Traditional ad-based revenues will shrink as AI-facilitated experiences replace web traffic and ad impressions.
• Direct payments from marketplaces could offset declining ad dollars—but only if buyers materialize and content quality is demonstrably better than what LLMs can scrape for free.
• Quote:

  “I think [the ad business] gets really, really small. I think it’s like newspapers… it’s probably older people who have not evolved to using an LLM for their news and information. And it’s happening faster than we’ve seen.”
  — Goldstein (29:43)

7. Who Will Win: Google, OpenAI, or New Market Entrants? (32:05–35:32)

• Google is in a singularly strong position:
  • Universal access to content (search, Gmail, YouTube, etc.).
  • Massive user base (Gemini’s MAUs up 200 million in 3 months; 44:23–44:48).
  • Execution is the only barrier; Sergey Brin’s reported full-time return improves outlook.
• OpenAI seen as distracted, with recent “Code Red” moments indicating recognition of Gemini/Google’s competitive leap.
  • Quote:

    “Chat really started to know me, got really good. In the past week or two, something happened… personalization went away. The answers were not as good… I think OpenAI lost control of the core LLM and something changed.”
    — Goldstein (42:20)

8. Strategic and Legal Uncertainties (31:37–32:33, 46:35–46:41)

• If paid answers become the new model, it’ll impose a radical cost of goods on AI players (especially Google).
  • “It basically creates cost of goods sold for Google that don’t exist right now.” — Ari Paparo (31:37)
• Legal battles and competitive blocking remain unresolved—expect shakeout, consolidation, and a reduction of publishers as only the best content gets paid for and accessed.

9. Predictions (32:08–32:37)

• Goldstein predicts publisher marketplaces will be sending significant checks to publishers by end of 2026 (or maybe sooner).
  • Quote:

    “They might be getting checks sooner, but summer, end of next year, yes.”
    — Goldstein (32:33)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “How do publishers get paid for the content that is being stolen by all the big foundational models over the past three-plus years?... That’s all I care about.”
  — Matthew Goldstein (11:36)
• “We also joke around that they did the first deal and the second deals will never happen.”
  — Matthew Goldstein (12:32)
• “The problem with these marketplaces — they’re like dating marketplaces. Lots of sellers, very few buyers.”
  — Ari Paparo (20:22)
• “I believe there’ll be two webs. There’ll be the human web and the agentic web… before you know it, Google and Gemini will be doing all that for you.”
  — Matthew Goldstein (16:44)
• “If you think about it, in five years, what do you really need? An agency? Sad.”
  — Matthew Goldstein, on the future of media agencies (37:57–38:28)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Newsletter Death and Platform Shifts: 03:24–07:14
• Publisher Pain: AI Ingestion & Revenue: 09:19–11:45
• Upfront Deals & Tech Blocking: 11:45–16:33
• Human Web vs. Agentic Web: 16:44–19:27
• Marketplaces for Content Licensing: 20:06–29:30
• Advertising vs. Direct Content Monetization: 29:36–30:49
• Strategic Implications for Google & OpenAI: 32:05–35:32, 42:02–46:41
• Predictions and Outlook: 32:08–32:37

Conclusion

This episode argues that the publisher business is at an inflection point: ad revenues are declining as LLMs siphon off content value, yet an emergent set of real-time content marketplaces could finally deliver meaningful compensation—if buyers materialize. The path forward includes technical defenses, industry coordination, and reimagining the very mechanics of content exchange for the AI era.

Goldstein is bullish that agentic content consumption and direct payments will take over, leaving traditional web traffic and advertising as “old people’s habits.” The question remains: will publishers get paid enough, and will there be enough survivors, to keep the web’s content engine running?

For full context, subscribe to Marketecture and follow Matthew Goldstein on LinkedIn for real-time perspectives on publisher/Ai trends.