Episode 176: Alex Chatfield on How Influencers are Leveraging Data Technology

Summary

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Marketecture Podcast: Episode 176

Guest: Alex Chatfield, Co-founder & President, Endorsable
Host: Ari Paparo
Date: June 5, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Ari Paparo interviews Alex Chatfield, a seasoned ad tech executive formerly at AppNexus, now leading Endorsable—a data technology platform designed to help influencers, celebrities, and brands unlock the power of fandom data. The conversation examines how influencers are leveraging technology to better understand and monetize their audiences, what differentiates Endorsable from other influencer platforms, and how these changes are affecting the broader ad tech and marketing ecosystem. The episode also features Ari and Eric Franchi discussing the week's prominent industry news, including Walmart Connect’s data strategy, Pubmatic’s AI containerization, High Touch’s integration with The Trade Desk, M&A updates, and regulatory scrutiny on ad tech data practices.

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Key Interview: How Influencers Are Leveraging Data Tech

Guest: Alex Chatfield
Host: Ari Paparo
Timestamps: [04:09]–[23:38]

What Is Endorsable? Why Is It Different?

• Alex introduces Endorsable as a "fandom intelligence engine," enabling talents (actors, athletes, influencers) to convert their social capital into measurable business opportunities for themselves and partnering brands.
• Quote:

  “What we’re building is… what we call a fandom intelligence engine.” —Alex Chatfield [04:29]

• Unlike traditional influencer platforms that focus on talent’s own stated preferences, Endorsable identifies and analyzes the actual fans, providing both talents and brands with deeply granular audience insights.
  • Example: Instead of a soda brand just partnering with Taylor Swift because she likes the product, Endorsable helps brands see whether her fans are also a great customer fit. [06:01]
• Most talents have shockingly limited data on their own fans—often just age and gender from platforms like Ticketmaster or merchandising sites, not first-party connections. [06:44]

Data Fragmentation and Opportunity

• Fan signals are highly fragmented across social, bio-link services (Linktree, Beacons), ticketing, and merchandise providers—talent rarely owns or controls this data. Endorsable seeks to consolidate these touchpoints. [08:50–09:44]
  • Quote:

    “Talent doesn’t have their own direct relationship with their own fans. They’ve been unconsciously disintermediated from them.” —Alex Chatfield [06:53]

• Link-in-bio vendors are an ad tech entry point, enabling cookies and email capture, which allow persistent identifiers outside social walled gardens. This data can then be matched using tools like LiveRamp. [10:25]

Who Should Leverage Fandom Data?

• Not just for superstars—any talent already partnering with brands, or looking to, should be focused on building databases and controlling fan relationships.
  • Quote:

    “Your fandom is your most valuable asset and most of you don’t own it.” —Alex Chatfield [10:52]

Shift to Programmatic and Multichannel Activation

• With organic reach on social plummeting (now sub-5% for Meta), brands increasingly must turn to programmatic advertising to fully access and activate influencer audiences across streaming, gaming, and digital media—not just social.
  • Quote:

    “Organic reach has gone down 15–20% year over year for the last five years…” [13:17]

• Endorsable enables targeting of fans across channels (“while they're streaming TV, playing mobile games, reading articles…”), not just when exposed to social content. [12:40]

Deeper Dive: The Actual Negotiation Process

• Discovery and negotiation is still highly manual, often brokered through both brand and talent agencies. Most third-party influencer databases only scrape public social data and engagement metrics (followers, likes, shares), lacking true insight into audience identity or brand suitability. [14:01–17:09]
  • Neither brands nor talents have robust first-party data; partnerships are mostly based on surface-level social stats.
• Most deals are line-item based (deliverables: X posts, Y videos) rather than outcome- or performance-driven, and measurement remains a key challenge in influencer marketing. [18:28–18:59]
  • “Measurement’s been a major problem in traditional influencer [marketing].” —Alex Chatfield [18:59]

The Role (or Lack Thereof) of Major Platforms

• Social platforms have the power to improve measurement and integration with brand-owned data, but progress is slow and they tend to focus on what talents post rather than who they reach. [19:26–20:25]
  • “It's not the who [they reach], it's about themselves.” —Alex Chatfield [15:56]
• Alex is skeptical that the platforms will embrace more transparent, brand-friendly measurement or data sharing anytime soon.

Lessons from AppNexus: Bridging Ad Tech & Hollywood

• Alex reflects on his transition from ad tech (AppNexus, Microsoft) to the world of talent and entertainment, highlighting the entrepreneurial spirit cultivated at AppNexus and the learning curve in “bridge building” between the New York ad tech world and Hollywood.
  • Quote:

    “It’s really like creating this blend... this bridge between Hollywood and New York that we’re playing right now.” —Alex Chatfield [22:13]

Notable Moment: Regulatory Shifts and Talent Rights

• Alex highlights recent legal settlements requiring ticketing data to return to musicians as a watershed moment, enabling direct-to-fan relationships and greater data ownership for talent. [23:39]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Ari Paparo, when the interview turns predictably back to programmatic:

  “I knew this was going to end up in programmatic advertising. I just had a feeling.” [12:40]

• On the value of audience data:

  “It's like contextual. We know this person talks about X and X is relevant... Let's just give them some money.” —Ari Paparo [17:48]

• On organic social decline:

  "The new statistics are, you know, something like sub 5% of my followers on Meta will actually see the post..." —Alex Chatfield [13:17]

• Reflecting on AppNexus culture:

  “That network is impressive. It sort of spawned entrepreneurs.” —Alex Chatfield [21:07]

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Industry News Roundup

Ari Paparo & Eric Franchi: [24:17]–[53:56]

Walmart Connect Sharing Vizio Data ([24:33])

• Walmart is opening access to Vizio inventory and data through Yahoo DSP (via Magnite), not only Trade Desk, signaling a more open and expansive retail media strategy.
• Suggestive of Walmart maximizing reach rather than building a strict walled garden like Amazon.
• Ari: "This is not huge news but… gives you a glimpse into Walmart’s strategy."

Pubmatic Launches AI Containerization ([28:44])

• Pubmatic is latest SSP to offer AI containerization, a trend sweeping the ad tech landscape, though Ari and Eric suggest the "AI" label is more about performance speed than actual intelligence.
• Continues trend toward sell-side curation and efficiency.

High Touch’s Integration with The Trade Desk ([32:28])

• High Touch now lets brands pull exposure logs from TTD directly into their warehouses, using their own first-party IDs and avoiding dependence on third-party IDs.
• Ari: "This is Jeff Green’s dream of UID2. Right. So UID2 allows anyone to make a request to get an ID and then save it themselves…"

InMobi and Scope3 Agentic Announcement ([35:18])

• InMobi leverages Scope3’s agentic technology to optimize ads for Glance, a lock-screen ad format with huge global reach.
• CBO claims, "80% of digital spend [to] be routed through agents within two years," which Ari and Eric view as highly ambitious but a sign of industry change.

Liftoff IPO Revival & Mobile Market Dynamics ([38:45])

• Liftoff returns to IPO market, with revised (lower) pricing. Despite this, mobile ad infrastructure's economics are seen as more sustainable than traditional programmatic web.
• Ari and Eric discuss the resilience and growth opportunity in mobile app ad tech—even as AI disrupts other programmatic areas.

M&A and Geo Startups Acquisitions ([44:34])

• Peer39 acquires Adlooks; Sitecore acquires geo-startup Scrunch for a reported $225M—a sign of ongoing investment and strategic value in geo/location data and contextual advertising.

Regulatory Scrutiny on Ad Tech and Location Data ([48:17])

• Senator Ron Wyden calls ad tech "a national security threat" due to the misuse of location data (e.g., tracking troops), with Connecticut joining states banning location data sales.
• Ari: "Location data sales should be banned, like, fully banned, like COPPA… There's no way to make it safe."

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Additional Commentary and Path Forward

• Branding and privacy: Both hosts lament ad tech’s continued perception problem—despite its role in funding free services, it’s routinely the target of political and regulatory scrutiny.
• Eric: "Maybe we should do something about it ... let's get a committee together."
• The episode ends with both looking ahead to more market changes, compliance trends, and entrepreneurial opportunities at the intersection of data technology, advertising, and media.

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Episode Highlights: Key Timestamps

• [04:09] Start of interview with Alex Chatfield
• [06:01] Fandom targeting vs. influencer preference targeting
• [10:25] Link-in-bio, cookies, and fan data capture
• [12:40] Decline of organic social reach; programmatic solutions
• [18:59] Measurement challenges in influencer marketing
• [21:07] Lessons from AppNexus, entrepreneurship
• [23:38] Newfronts, media platforms and measurement
• [28:44] Pubmatic AI containerization discussion
• [32:28] High Touch / Trade Desk integration
• [35:18] InMobi Scope3 agentic selling; global shifts
• [38:45] Liftoff IPO, mobile market analysis
• [48:17] Regulatory crackdown on location data

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Summary

This episode of Marketecture is essential listening for anyone interested in the convergence of influencer marketing, data, and programmatic technology. Alex Chatfield's insights showcase how next-gen influencer platforms are shifting focus from talent self-promotion to strategic activation of their fandoms using first-party data, resolving long-standing fragmentation in the industry. The subsequent news discussion offers an incisive lens on major shifts in retail media, SSP innovation, and the mounting regulatory and competitive pressures shaping ad tech as 2026 unfolds. The tone is witty, honest, and deeply industry-savvy—perfect for marketing, advertising, or technology leaders seeking actionable insight and context.

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Transcript

[A]

Oh, hello, I'm Jeremy Bloom, co founder and CEO of marketexture Media. And boy do I have news for you. Market is back. And if you've been watching from a distance, thinking that looks phenomenal.

[B]

But a trip to New York is

[A]

just a bridge or several too far. We've got great news for you. We're bringing Market live to the beating heart of Adland. That's right. On September 23, 2026, market coming to Chicago. We're going to be bringing the same sold out energy, sharp insights and industry defining conversations to the center of advertising's biggest transformations. From media and commerce to AI tech and modern marketing. This is where the people shaping what's next for the ad industry will be, want to be and need to be. Early registration is live now, so lock in your [e-mail] Again, lock in your [e-mail] Disclaimer I live in Chicago. It's not Chicago, it's Chicago.

[B]

This podcast is brought to you by Rise in Programmatic. Most bid requests don't tell the full story. Around 60% have no identity signal. Another 30% are mislabeled or too generic. Buyers end up bidding in the dark. Rise changes that by introducing an agentic layer built directly inside the bidstream. Analyzing every bid request in real time. Rise reasons across context, environment and behavior to generate clear intent signals even in anonymous and cookie less environments. The result? Better targeting, less waste, and up to 3x higher CPMs on enriched inventory. Not just more data. Better decisions in milliseconds at scale. Find out more about rise@rise codes.com that's rise codes.com.

[C]

All right.

[B]

Welcome to the Market Extra podcast. This is Ari Paparo. I'm here with Eric Franchi. How are you doing, Eric?

[D]

Doing well. How are you my friend?

[B]

I'm very good. So Eric and I have very complicated schedules in the weeks leading up to Cannes. So we're going to mix it up a little bit. Like I think we're. I'm doing some interviews without Eric and then Eric and I are doing the news and maybe I think I'll be able to do the news the next couple weeks. But if I can, Eric will do the news by himself. We're all adults. All the listeners are adults. They can handle it. Little change, a little mix up, they'll be okay, don't you think?

[D]

I don't know, man. I think some of the people just love the, the back and forth, the banter, the, you know, the Arianny rx Show, but we'll do our best.

[B]

Well, today I had the pleasure of interviewing Alex Chatfield, who many of you probably know, longtime person at Appnexus, who I worked with closely during my time there. And he started a company. It was called Ad Volution, but now it has a better name called Endorsable. And it's kind of in the middle of Influencer, but with like ad tech data overlay. So it's pretty interesting stuff. I learned a lot from the conversation and so we'll hear that and then Eric and I will come back with the news of the week where we've got the liftoff ipo, the Walmart announcements, and some just other pretty interesting things that are going on in the industry. So it should be a good conversation.

[D]

Yes, a Geo company was acquired and the names have completely escaped Ari and Eric.

[B]

It'll be a mystery to us when we find out who got acquired. All right, stay tuned for Alex Chatfield. So congrats on getting out of Appnexus Microsoft after a long stint and doing your own thing. You're the co founder and president of this company we're calling Endorsable New name. Tell me a little bit about it.

[C]

Well, yeah, thanks, Ari. It took almost 15 years to finally leave the nest, but I've spread my wings and I'm trying to fly here on my. My own thing, which has been really an exciting journey. It's evolved significantly since, since the beginning, I think. Kind of like any, any good startup. But, you know, what we're building is a, what we call a fandom intelligence engine.

[B]

Okay, what does that mean? Fandom intelligence agent. So this is like Influencer, it's called Endorsable. So that kind of tells us a little bit, but give us the elevator pitch.

[C]

Yeah, really what we do is we, we partner and enable talent. So actors, athletes, influence to translate their social capital into new lines of growth and to empower brands to build both more authentic and more effective endorsement partnerships.

[B]

Right, that makes sense. I mean, there's statistics out there that, you know, influencers are the number one source of Virgin Z finding new brands and they're trusted more than paid media and all that sort of stuff. So is this an influencer play? Because there have been other influencer plays, influential, got acquired, bunch of other companies like that. How is this, how is this different?

[C]

Yeah, it's a great question. The influencer market is very hot, as you said, growing 30 plus percent year over year. Depending on what you're looking at, it's already a sizable market. What's unique about our play is that we're really focusing on fandom and the fans of the spokesperson or of the influencer. Where traditionally the focus has really just been on what we would call talent data, meaning the own personal preferences, interests of, of the talent themselves, the products and services they personally use.

[B]

Okay, so, so it's not Taylor Swift saying she likes a certain soda brand. It's Taylor Swift telling her, her minions to like a certain soda brand.

[C]

It's. It's the brand partnering with Taylor Swift because they now know that her fans actually are the right consumer set for, for their product.

[B]

Okay, so, so it's sort of your profiling or estimating who, who follows sailors with and why that matters, correct?

[C]

Yeah, we are. We're effectively identifying, you know, celebrity fandoms, you know, outside of social, because that's where we can actually do the identification, provide real insights to talent for the very first time. So they actually know who their fans are. When I got into this, I actually didn't really appreciate how little talent knew about their own fan base. I mean, the only data they've ever been given is age and gender.

[B]

Yeah, so what, like if you're, if you're, I guess a musician filling up arenas, do you have a database? Like what, using CRM? What's the current. What are you doing?

[C]

Generally not. I mean, musicians tend to be the furthest ahead because they do sell tickets and merch, but often they're selling tickets through third party platforms like Ticketmaster or Stubbing, where they're selling merch through third party platforms. And so they don't have the database. Those platforms have the database. And so yeah, generally speaking, talent doesn't have their own direct relationship with their own fans. They've been sort of unconsciously disintermed from them because they use all these platforms to interact, interact with them.

[B]

And that's probably worse for sports, right? Like an average sports player probably has kind of no idea.

[C]

It's even worse for sports because athletes also have such a short career that their moment to capture and build that, that database is much shorter. And I mean, if you're an 18 year old or a 21 year old and you're hitting the pros, you're very focused on excelling at the sport. And you're probably not thinking about how do I capture this moment to make sure I know who my fans are so that I can use those relationships and that trust to my advantage in the future.

[B]

Okay, now this is a deep cut, so I'm not sure I remember this properly. But aren't you a Deadhead? Like, weren't you the guy who created that app, Nexus Grateful Dead sticker?

[C]

That was not me.

[B]

That was not you. Was that like Rob Hazan or someone like that? You know what I'm talking about? That would.

[C]

That would track with Rob Hazan. If you said Dave Matthews, I'd say it was Jonathan Mars Dave Matthews.

[B]

Because the reason I brought it up is because, like, the Graveville Dead were famous for having, like, the best database in entertainment. Right. They knew who their Deadheads were, and they would email them and mail physical mail to them and I guess Phish also. So what's the game plan for a modern star to create a database to connect with the fans? Do you just cobble it together with, like, Patreon and substack and a bunch of other stuff, or is there a good way to do it?

[C]

Great question. So, you know, if you think about how talent interacts with their fans today, of course there's social media, but that's really walled off and not a playable space for us. But there's also bio link companies. So, you know, folks like Link Tree or Chney or Beacons, these. These folks have links on the homepages of the social sites that click out

[B]

of Social link and Bio. Link in Bio. I've heard this before.

[C]

Yep. You have, you know, ticketing platforms, merchandising platforms, you have ACR vendors or companies. Right. Which who can tell us. These are the television screens that have consumed a specific celebrity's content. And so there's actually significant fan signals just highly fragmented across a number of different players. And so that's really where we're focused on bringing that together.

[B]

Oh, wow. Okay. So let's talk about Link in Bios. This is an ad tech podcast, more or less. We try to deny it, we try to be the next Joe Rogan, but really it's a bunch of ad tech people listening to this. So if I'm. Let's say I'm an influencer or a star of some kind, and I. I'm posting Instagram and I say go to my store. Link in Bio. Right? The user clicks out of the Instagram app and then it redirects through the vendor that's provided Link in Bio. They create a first party cookie and then match it up using Liveramp or someone like that, and suddenly you have a pretty good idea which household, according to one of the major data spines. Is that what we're talking about here?

[C]

Yep, that's exactly right. The LinkedIn bios also do A pretty good job of capturing email so you could subscribe to a LinkedIn bio page. So obviously a more persistent identifier for advertising purposes than just a cookie.

[B]

Oh, wow. Okay, so what's the minimum size at which it's worth doing this? Should every like, you know, second string cornerback on the New Orleans Saints have the Lincoln bio and work with endorsable and V, collecting a database?

[C]

It's probably not, it's not, probably not at that level. But yeah, anybody that partners with, with brands today or has aspirations to partner with brands today should be doing this because this is effectively the currency. It's really like we like to tell talent, your fandom is your most valuable asset and most of you don't own it.

[B]

Okay, let's play, let's play this out, right? I'm a brand. Like, you know, I'm selling something, you know, some sort of skin cream or whatever. And my, my agency identifies some influencers. I mean, I keep saying influencers. I know that's not exactly the way you think about it, sir, I apologize for that. But. And says, hey, we want to collab now. This person who has got a following now, has assets that are valuable. They have a list, they have a database, they have capabilities. How does that change the dynamic with the brand versus, you know, kind of the current way of doing things?

[C]

So really it changes it in two ways. One, the Talad can better position themselves with the brand in the first place. Right? Like, oh, yes, this makes a lot of sense. Not only because I love your product, but because my fans are the right customer set for you. They like your product, they're the right age, demo, household income, whatever it might be for your product. So it provides intelligence upfront to get the right partnership in place. And then instead of relying exclusively on, you know, organic reach of a social post, and we're talking about your really traditional influencer marketing, the brand can now also amplify what they're doing outside of social. So we'll, we'll post the, the commercial, the creative on social. We can now also target the fans of my spokesperson while they're streaming tv, playing mobile games, reading articles. Right? Just anywhere across digital media.

[B]

Oh, I knew this was going to end up in programmatic advertising. I just had a feeling like the gravity well of programmatic advertising was going to be at the end of this pitch.

[C]

15 years in programmatic art. You can't take it out of me.

[B]

All right, so now you have the star Ariana Grande saying like, hey, use this cream. It makes your skin better. Then she's shooting off an email to her minions being like, hey, use this cream. I love it. And then the whammy is I'm watching the latest episode or something on Peacock and Ariana Grande is in commercial and I have no idea why I'm seeing that. Is that kind of the situation?

[C]

Yep.

[B]

Hey man, I like it.

[C]

And it's, you know, it's worth saying that this is increasingly important for brands because just how, how little organic Reach talent now gets inside of social. So yeah, really, like. Oh yeah. I mean organic reach has gone down 15, 20% year over year over year for the last five years. You know, the new statistics are, you know, something like sub 5% of my followers on Meta will actually see the post that I put out there. And so if a brand actually wants to reach the fans of their spokesperson, this becomes the way to ensure that that happens and to be able to do that across the big screen and you know, all screens, not just primarily a small screen.

[B]

Could we up level the conversation a little bit and give me a sense of like, what is, what happens in the negotiat process? Who at the agency is thinking about this? Are they influencer specialists or are they mainstream? What platforms are they using to screen which influencers? And then what does the negotiation look like and who brings data from either side?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, great question. So in some cases a brand will hire a agency partner to source talent. That individual or the brand themselves will go out and then try to identify the talent that they should partner with. Some brands are using like ChatGPT queries to identify influencers that they should partner with. Some brands or agencies are licensing software that, you know, really only looks at the, what we again call talent data. So the personal preferences of, of talent themselves. And so they, they, you know, effectively come up with a list of, okay, here are authentic talent partners for, for me. And then they start the outreach process, which is a very manual process and you know, very time consuming.

[B]

Not to interrupt, but haven't Meta and Google been investing in this part of the value chain? I think I reported on it like a month ago.

[C]

Yeah, the new fronts, there's some announcements from YouTube specifically, and I didn't see the one about, about Meta, but I

[B]

think it was part of the Manus, the Manus AI integration, which I don't know if that's still happening because of the Chinese government. But like they're, they were showing examples of using madness to find influencers on Instagram and stuff like that.

[C]

Yes, yeah. And I have, I have looked at the sort of native capabilities of the social platforms. It's again all focused on the like what the talent has been talking about within environment.

[B]

Not who, not who.

[C]

It's what who they're reaching. It's not the who, it's that's about them themselves.

[B]

Okay, so, okay, so that process happens. It's messy. I'm finding people I'm out representing blind emails or maybe I'm reaching out to their talent agencies. Do people use managers and talent agencies for a lot of this?

[C]

Yeah. Oftentimes you end up with two agencies as counterparties. In the negotiation, if you have the brands agency and the talents talent agency or talent manager negotiating a deal that's, you know, a talent fee where they're going to, you know, if we're talking about again traditional influencer marketing, they're going to create content, you know, generally in their own voice. The brand will have some influence on approval. That's a fairly lengthy negotiation. But you come to terms and the creator or influencer generates the content and then posts it across their, across their socials.

[B]

So, so I think you skipped a part that I'm interested in and is relevant to your business, I think, which is the conversation about the audience and the data and the, and which techniques to use. Like, and so the buyer, does the buyer have any data or they just have like follower account and some very surface level data.

[C]

Exactly. They don't have any, the buyer doesn't have any data today. You know, unless they are licensing a, a sort of a platform, an influencer marketing platform themselves or they're doing the discovery in that platform. But again that platform is just going to be looking at social metrics. So you're going to be seeing, you know, age and gender of the audience geography. Okay. And then you're, you get very rich engagement metrics. So you know when somebody posts a video on meta, how many views, likes, shares, comments, whatever, but you have no idea who is actually seeing that video.

[B]

And Right. And you, so you're, you're, it's almost like contextual. We know, we know this person talks about X and X is relevant to us. So beauty, beauty. And they don't curse a lot, so they're safe. Let's just give them some money. Right. And what you're saying is apps in your platform, this isn't supposed to be an advertisement for your platform, but apps into your platform also the seller doesn't know very much.

[C]

That's correct. Yeah. The seller, the talent themselves have no idea. I mean the talents they've seen Their fan base in a crowded room, they've met them on the street, They've never been given a consolidated data sheet of. Are your fans educated? Are they parents? What kind of cars do they drive? Like, none of that information has ever been given to them.

[B]

Yeah, okay, got it. All right, so then they do a deal and it has, it has. Do these deals have performance aspects or the deals basically, like, you know, just a line items of. Here's what the talent's going to do.

[C]

It's mostly line items of what the talent's going to do. So it's. Yeah, we're going to create X number of pieces of creative and we're going to post X number of times. And that's, that's, that's kind of it.

[B]

And then what. How do you know it worked?

[C]

Well, measurement's been a major problem in traditional influencer.

[B]

You think?

[C]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, the, the, there's, there's definitely a lot of companies out there now working to, to solve that. Yeah, the, the marketplace has grown. Yeah. Like, like wildfire for, you know, a number of years. And quite frankly, the technology and the data, like the infrastructure is, you know, now starting to catch up.

[B]

Yeah, got it. So one of the theories I've had, and I mentioned this on the pod, and I think I did in my newsletter as well, is that I do think the platforms could come in here and, and take part of this value chain, measurement in particular. Like, if you know that a given, you know, piece of content is part of a campaign, it's really not hard to make that a touch point in your measurement models. Are you seeing anything there? Do you agree or disagree with my prognostication?

[C]

I completely agree that the social platforms are an amazing position to provide a lot of value here. Whether they're going to or not is sort of the other question. Right. You know, measurement. Yeah, for sure. They could, they could help with measurement. They could, you know, the, the big measurement challenge that the brand has is that the organic post is occurring in an account that they don't own. Right. Like, that's not hard to solve. Let's just stream that specific data into the brand's account and now it's a unified measurement, you know, within the walls of, of that brand's meta account.

[D]

Great.

[B]

Yeah. You don't even really have to charge for it. I mean, you probably will, but you could just do that. I mean, if, if you just offered that, it would make everyone's lives better. Right. But that's usually not a good appeal for the big Companies. So to close it out, I do want to just do a little trip down memory lane. So AppNexus is a once in a lifetime experience with people who work there. I know I had to do 10 years of therapy afterwards. So seriously though, what do you learn from that experience that's relevant to what you're doing now? Was it helpful from an entrepreneur perspective? Give us the wisdom.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, incredibly helpful. If you look at the network of folks that joined App Nexus and later went on to start their own companies, you being one of them, that network is impressive. It sort of spawned entrepreneurs. Something about the culture, you know, really encouraged or like attracted entrepreneurs and then also encouraged them to like go out and do it themselves. So I, I wanted to do this a very long time ago. For me personally, the rocket ship was too appealing to get off and so I wrote it for all the way through AT&T acquisition and then into Microsoft and finally decided that it was time to do it for myself. My business is in programmatic advertising. I'm using so much of my experience and understanding of the open web and, you know, data signal and digital media to bring this new vision to life. What's, what is very new and foreign to me is Hollywood and talent. And so that's been, that's been a fun learning curve. It's going a lot of time out in la, but it's, you know, it's, it's really like creating this, this blend between Hollywood or this bridge between Hollywood and New York that, that we're playing right now.

[B]

Do you go to Hollywood and start making, you know, boxes and arrows on the whiteboard or is that not play?

[C]

Not yet, no.

[B]

I think they do visit a little bit differently.

[C]

Yes, they do. They do, yeah. We are spending a lot of time educating on just the fact that, you know, your talent data is being monetized by all these platforms that you use to communicate with your fans. You know, you, you can legitimately step up and demand access to that data, I think. Or if you saw the, the DOJ settlement recently with, with Ticketmaster Live Nation, where, you know, the, the ticketing data is going to start coming back to musicians. That's a, that's a watershed moment for musicians. They are going to start to have all the contact information for all the people that, you know, bought, bought tickets to, to their shows. That's a really valuable asset for them going forward.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. I didn't see that. That's interesting. Well, Alex, congratulations on the success. Thanks for joining us. I think probably people are pretty Interested in the subject that you could be reached at. Endorsable is the company name and it was a very interesting perspective on this kind of emerging area.

[C]

Thanks for having me.

[B]

This podcast is brought to you by the Build, a new podcast from the guys behind Sincera, Michael Sullivan and Ian Myers. They built their company by figuring out clever solutions to a few important ad tech problems in our industry. And that's exactly what the show is about. Mike and Ian interview some of the smartest tech minds in the biz to hear about how they identified opportunities, solved their hardest challenges, and grew their businesses in the process. Listen to the Build with Mike o' Sullivan wherever you get your podcasts.

[D]

Hello Ari, how are you?

[B]

I'm great. How you doing, Eric?

[D]

I'm good. I'm excited to be here for the new segment. I missed a good interview.

[B]

Yeah, you know, sometimes without you the interviews are lonely and sad, are productive and fast moving.

[D]

Anyway, we got news this week, so let's start with this Walmart news. So straight off of their website, Walmart Connect expanding access to Walmart first party data across leading platforms. So Walmart is opening access to Visio inventory start through Yahoo DSP using Magnite's supply side tech with additional partnerships planned over time. There's one company that is noticeably absent from this announcement and that is TTD not on the launch list after a long time partnership. What's the make of that?

[B]

Well, I don't know the specific on this TTD question is TTD not able to buy Vizio inventory? I doubt it. I would assume that they had that as a baseline, but I don't really know. The new news here is that someone else besides TDD has access to this data and inventory. It's Visio inventory with Visio data only on Yahoo dsp and Magnite is sort of the intermediary because Magnite I think had the relationship with Vizio already as their ssp. So this is not huge news but it gives you a glimpse into Walmart strategy. I think when they acquired Vizio everyone was very concerned. It was going to be super locked down. It was be walled garden and et cetera, et cetera. And definitely doesn't appear that way. It definitely appears like their Walmart Connect is going to try to maximize revenue and try to expand and meet buyers where they are. And so I think it is pretty exciting for Walmart. Very exciting for Yahoo DSP to be sort of anointed the number two most important player for Walmart really is, yeah, Incredible.

[D]

Yahoo, a 30 year old brand, huh?

[B]

Well, Yahoo DSP is not exactly 30 years old.

[D]

It's on a roll. Yeah, I'm trying to be dramatic.

[B]

Yeah. Okay. I mean, you know what, who's, who's Walmart's enemy number one?

[D]

It's Amazon.

[B]

Amazon, yeah.

[D]

Right.

[B]

So Amazon DSP is not going to be on the list anytime soon,

[D]

of course.

[B]

So.

[D]

Okay, so. But TTD loses one of its retail media talking points. Arguably.

[B]

Yep. I mean, they, it's not. Well, we don't have Walmart shopper data generically available on the open web. We're still talking about video inventory and.

[D]

Right.

[B]

There's, you know, but it's certainly a crumbling part of their garden, their wall.

[D]

And yes, the strategy today seems to make a lot of sense of meeting buyers where they are. What would you peg the odds of Walmart somehow maybe building or buying their way into becoming a walled garden and being the, you know, the fourth necessary DSP for a buyer to access, like, really, really, really, really important, unique data and, or inventory? What do you think?

[B]

I think they're strong. The odds are strong. They do something. I, I wouldn't necessarily predict a DSP acquisition though. Though it is possible, but they have. The Vizio acquisition was a pretty big stepping stone towards a more aggressive stance towards the whole kit and caboodle. And DSP could be a piece of it. Although it might be a situation where building their own DSP on the trade desk, which is how they talk about it, is good enough. And, and they don't necessarily need to own that. They just want to meet buyers where they are on other platforms. So I think there'll be more acquisitions in the future, but I think that. I don't know that a full DSP buyout would be the next thing.

[D]

Got it. That makes sense. I mean, Walmart can, I mean, they could buy anything, right? They could buy half the Lumascape, three quarters of the Lumascape on the Lumascape. So it's a fun one to speculate on for sure. And it's all speculation, folks.

[B]

It is all speculation.

[D]

All right, let's talk about another one. Pubmatic. Pubmatic launches AI containerization. So another announcement. Somewhat like Index Cloud.

[B]

Yeah, somewhat. And also, again, the AI inside this containerization is being shoved in with like a hammer. The containerization is the story and the AI is like, hey, you know, put some AI in your container. Right. It's like.

[D]

Right.

[B]

So.

[D]

And maybe that, that's, maybe that's the difference between the index cloud announcement and this. That's a very good point. So it's automatic. They're letting third party algorithms run inside their auction. Right. Not upstream of it. So buys get decisions made against unfiltered inventory in real time. That's the similarity. Maybe the emphasis on custom algos or algo companies is the difference here.

[B]

Yeah, well, it's the same, actually. I think the. I mean, it starts with the ib who has ATRF where the A stands for AI for no reason. And then Index announces their containers and it's all like, you know, they're a little more honest about the press release and they're like, it's about speed. Great. And now this one is AI. But really when they say AI, what they mean is speed. It's all about speed. You can't do AI unless you have speed because AI takes more time to calculate things. And so I really, I just discount the AI Part of all of this is containerization is the story, and that's pretty interesting on its own. The AI stuff is maybe a little bit of the tailwind that's making people interested in containerization.

[D]

Who would have thought containerization would be the word of the year for 2026 in the beginning of the year?

[B]

Besides Adam Piloch, I think it's a good idea. It's been around for a while, it's been tried, and something is in the air that's making it better now than it was a couple of years back.

[D]

Shift to the sell side.

[B]

Yeah, it's a shift to the sell side. It's a little bit like technology innovations and things that were maybe not as standard in the tech crowd a couple of years back.

[D]

Yeah, maybe it's.

[B]

I think, I don't know.

[D]

Yeah. Do you think that, you know, we're going to the second half of the year? Do you think this rest of reshuffles the deck at all in terms of winners, losers, strong companies, weak companies? You know, when we do our end

[B]

of year recap, I think it's. I think it continues the trend towards. I forgot the word curation. Curation, yeah. This is sort of a continuation of curation, which is more data to the sell side. You have companies like Swim bringing performance to the sell side and Attain and Chalice, and they're all moving to the sell side. And containerization helps all of that and makes it faster and easier and cheaper to deploy those business models. So I think that's all just continuing a trend that previously existed. The gauntlet I threw down after the index announcement or the question I raised publicly was, will Bedrock be able to prove that you can be a DSP in a container. That's the, that's the thing that they're betting on, which has not ever been done at scale. And that's unproven. And they haven't proven it either.

[D]

Yeah. So watch the space. All right. So by the way, how good was the High Touch interview last week? Did you get like anybody giving you feedback?

[B]

I thought it was great. Yeah. Yeah, I thought it was really good too. He was great people. It's a company people should know more about and don't. I didn't know very much about them. So. Yeah, I thought it was pretty entertaining.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

So they came out with a relevant announcement this week. So they launched exposure log matching for TTD. So basically let brands pipe TTD's raw impression level exposure logs directly into their warehouse and resolve them against their own first party customer IDs with no third party ID dependency. This, I think is the real, maybe one of the first real answers to, you know, are you looking to step into the live rep shoes that you asked the CEO last week?

[B]

Yeah. This is Jeff Green's dream of UID 2. Right. So UID 2 allows anyone to make a request to get an ID and then save it themselves without paying a fee. And so if you have a match table already of UID 2 sitting around, then you could take Trade Desk logs and use them natively. And this is exactly the kind of scenario that Jeff was hoping would happen and it should happen more. I think UID2 has been stunted by competitive worries and folks have not adopted it because either they were in the business of having their own ID like a live ramp, or they were in the business of buying ads in some form. So they saw Trade Desk as competitive and didn't want to adopt it. So this is great. And you know, you would expect this to have already happened more, but it hasn't.

[D]

That's so interesting. So, because there was, you know, debate around how Publis is acquiring Liveramp could possibly benefit ttd. When I forget which, which conversation I had, you know, the, the line of thinking was what could benefit TTD's data marketplace but could actually benefit TTD in terms of UID adoption in cases like this?

[B]

Yeah, it could. Right. So whether an ecosystem of UID2 users is going to create, I'm still pretty skeptical. Because you have no other DSPs adopting it. Right. But if TDD remains like the number one source of open web demand, then you would think more peripheral players might adopt it.

[D]

Yeah. Okay, well, this is one to watch. This High touch company all of a sudden get a market.

[B]

All of a sudden they got a market. We should claim that they raised like their billion dollar round aftermarket texture. Just see if people can fact check us on that.

[D]

Something tells me they might have another Riz or something in the future. Oh God, that momentum. You know, I have, I, I'm constantly looking for signals and signs of the infrastructure layer changing. Right. Like what, what happens post Programmatic. It was an announcement this morning. You know, it's, it, it's, it's, it's small, ish, but I think it's kind of interesting. So I don't know if you saw this InMobi scope three announcement.

[B]

Yeah, I didn't see this. Tell me about this.

[D]

Okay, so InMobi InMobi has, I think via acquisition they have something called glance. Glance is a unique ad format. It's like I don't think it's in the US and it's probably not iOS users either. It's when users just like have their lock screen Glance serves ads on it and maybe there's some sort of rewards for the user. I don't exactly how it works, but it's like the lock screen thing kind of cool. It's like 300 million users, something relatively scalable. And Inmobi is a global company and they're using sell side agents to sell it in partnership with Scope three.

[B]

Wow. Okay. Yeah. This is like a Venn diagram. I wasn't expecting like Android users in India and Agentic AI through Scope three is a combo.

[D]

Yeah. You gotta start somewhere, right?

[B]

Sure.

[D]

This idea of, of just some, some percentage of the space moving to agentic selling, Agentic buying, however you're going to call it, we need to start seeing some of these signals and this is, this is one of the first that I've seen. The InMobi CBO before you comment, had a wild statement in the article. He is calling for 80% of digital spend to be routed through agents within two years, which I guess is possible, but I mean that is like sea change.

[B]

Yeah. The areas that are the hottest around Agentic or ADCP are the areas that aren't very good for programmatic things. Like I think we, we may have talked about this on the show. I'm losing track of my conversations. But like audio, people are really excited about using AI to, to bid on audio because audio is not very good at Programmatic. I know we'll get a lot of hate mail on that one, but the other, another area, linear tv.

[D]

Right. Linear TV freewheel and New rpa.

[B]

Absolutely. Yep. Another area, another area that this obviously says is very low CPM inventory. Where you know, India is known as a market that's hard for ad tech companies because the going rate CPMs are so low they're in the 10 cent range. CPM. Right. And you know, running a whole data center listening to a million in QPS isn't worth it. So it's another example where they may be like a little innovator's dilemma here where ADCP is not as good as programmatic but it is able to pick off little areas where it is as good or better.

[D]

But that's not the vision for adcp. The vision for ADCP is for ADCP to be like the layer.

[B]

Well, let's keep in mind ADCP is not owned by any individual so there is not a vision for it necessarily. It's a collaborative effort of many parties to operate their own businesses in the most efficient way possible.

[D]

Anyway, I think this is neat stuff.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely. It's very neat. In movie, such a neat company. There's always, there's always talk about them going public and I think. Did they file an S1 at some point? I don't remember. I'd love to see them.

[D]

Yeah. Long rumored to be like a billion dollar company, something like that. I have no knowledge of this.

[B]

Yeah, they have a lot of other businesses too. Like they do have consumer businesses in India and, and APAC in general. So it will be very interesting to see if they go out.

[D]

Agreed. But there is an IPO coming.

[B]

We need a bell. Do we have a bell? We need the sound effects. Not enough sound effects on architecture podcast.

[D]

We need sound effects. That's right. Producer Mike, throw that in there. Liftoff is back on. Liftoff. If you recall, they filed an S1 stopped. Now they're coming back. Prices cut from 26, 20 to 30 down to 20 to 22. Right. So the price of the IPO was cut. But we got to look at some of the numbers and the numbers are pretty interesting. It's a $5 billion. You've got a enterprise value business and the multiples if this goes out in the 2022 range are basically 7x revenue, 12x EBITDA. So fairly rational. For context, AppLovin is trading at 40x EBITDA. So it's just not Applovin. But it's a interesting business and at 5 billion it's actually larger than a lot of the publicly traded ad tech. Pure plays.

[B]

Would you remember what the gross revenue was like a bill. Don't probably yeah. These mobile companies have just. I mean the honest truth that no one wants to hear among the programmatic people is that they have a more sustainable business than the programmatic world does. They're not dependent on search traffic nearly as much People are willing to pay for the games and customer acquisition works at scale so if they could call this a mini app lovin and can execute and thereby grow well that sounds like a pretty exciting stock to own. I saw some slides that they were showing in this roadshow and it was interesting. They, they said that over half of the revenue comes from outside of gaming. So it's about a half, let's just call it a half gaming company. I don't know if Apple gives out that stat but I don't think they do. I don't think they do.

[D]

Talk about the percentage of E commerce. Yeah growth percentage of E commerce and it's relative to the core businesses Tidy.

[B]

Yeah, yeah exactly. So this is I'd say half outside gaming is pretty good number and then they say that they're the number three SDK other than Google and Facebook so that means Facebook and Google number one and two then there's two more presumably AppLovin and Unity and then they're the third X app Google and Facebook SDK penetration still matters and it's very sticky and defensible even though customers do multi home so you're not. It doesn't mean that they have some portion of the publisher universe uses them exclusively or preferred it just means that they have presence in them. So it's a factor in the business that makes it more investable I think and more sustainable than tag on the page in the web world.

[D]

Yeah I did a quick search by the way revenue so trailing 12 months ending September 30th was 630district 33 million revenue. Based on their growth rate it's probably going to be 750 to 800 so slightly less than, than a billion but that's gross.

[B]

That's gross. Yeah okay.

[D]

Yeah that's correct. You're right by the way in terms of mobile I made, I made this post on, on, on LinkedIn that you know I've been, I've been digging into mobile over the course of the past couple of months and we, we've made our first in like I mean eight years of doing this. Our first pure play kind of mobile app infrastructure investment at Imperium. Yeah we did it last month and we're making another one. So I agree with you in the characteristics of the market and it's also one of these markets that is,

[C]

I

[D]

don't want to say AI resistant, but it's not subject to, you know, some of the issues that other categories like the open web have with respect to AI, people are actually playing more games than are playing less games.

[B]

It's not the consumer AI play isn't. It isn't in jeopardy here. Consumers aren't going to switch off games to do AI, although they may have new apps that are like the companion apps effectively are AI, but they act like games, basically.

[D]

Yeah. And by the way, these ads that applovin and others run, they are like completely portable to some of those environments. So it's like kind of uniquely AI resistant.

[B]

Well, let's talk about the AI tailwinds, though. So first of all, you have creative, right? So ads in app are much more AI friendly than ads in other places. You create hundreds of variations. You make them playable, you have AI avatars, things like that. That's already happening. And if you think about not market share shifting, but efficiency shifting, where if you have, let's say the market's controlled by six or seven mobile ad networks, all of whom have basically the same technology and the same data, the AI makes them all better and they all get more profitable and they don't even have to shift share, and they can be growing right there. There is a limit to the amount of consumers are spending ultimately. But, but the, the AI tailwind on the, on their ability to optimize is very clearly there. Yeah.

[D]

Yeah, well said. Final kind of, kind of anecdote on this. I made that post on LinkedIn that we're, you know, we're digging. I'm. I'm digging into AI. Jeremy Bloom, CEO of marketecture, I know, listens to this. He, he said something to the effect of. I just came back from MAU and I was shook. He said that in a positive way, like, oh, my God, this market is nuts. MAU, I guess, is the, the mobile version of Possible or CES or something like that.

[B]

Yeah, it's a Vegas conference that's very focused on mobile app. Yes.

[D]

Okay, so continue to watch the space. We got some M and A this week as well. Actually today as well. Today is Wednesday, June 3rd. So first was peer 39 acquired Adlooks from scope three. So Adlooks, go contextual data company scope three acquired a couple years ago. Peer 39, who, you know, my, I guess is doing quite well, acquired it. And this, as I understand, specifically gives Pier 39 ability to start to get into Walled gardens, which I think was, you know, the one area that. That they. They had a. A gap in, if I understand correctly.

[B]

Yeah, it's private to private spin out. It's pretty probably a small deal. What. What was the ration rationale for Scope three getting into this and buying ad? Luke? I think Brian talked about it when they did their big pivot, but, like, I don't really remember exactly what the thought was.

[D]

Yeah, now my mind. I thought you were gonna ask me this, and my mind is kind of lagging on this one. It was either right at the pivot or before the pivot, you know, when it was like, very focused on measurement. I think it was some unique measurement capabilities. But don't quote me on that one. Brian can add us on this.

[B]

I think when Scope three did its pivot out of green measurement and towards Agentic, the first demo they had that was really good was like a Mobian Double Verify competitor. It was like analyzing web pages and doing context and then putting that in the engine. So that probably was from the adlooks acquisition. And maybe. I don't know if they still do that or if they're 100% focused on transactions, but probably as a standalone business, it wasn't important to them anymore.

[D]

Yeah, that makes sense. We should get Brian on the POD to give us the update on Scope three, by the way.

[B]

Sure.

[D]

All right. This one both of us heard about, and we were like, wait, what is this? So a banker sent this to Ari and I, our personal Gmails or something like that. We were just like, really? Huh?

[B]

Was a banker? It was Phil Fren, friend of the pod, the early subscriber to market texture constant attendee at our conferences. We salute you, Phil.

[D]

Is he a banker?

[B]

Yeah, he's a banker.

[D]

Okay, so I said a banker. I did. Stop hazing me. Sitecore acquired a Geo startup called Scrunch. I don't know about sitecore, I don't know about Scrunch, but the headline number was healthy. The headline number was 225 million scrunch. Wiz.

[B]

It sounds made up.

[D]

I like scrunch. It's a decent word. Although I defer to you as the king of the world.

[B]

No, no, it's pretty good. It's pretty good, Dave. Scrunch. It just sounds funny. So Geo is a hot space. There's companies we've never heard of getting bought for $225 million. That sounds good.

[D]

Exactly. That's the signal. Yes. I have a good investment in Geo. Like, both of us are happy about this one. So it's, you know, this space is wild. Right. Like, you know, the companies are raising, you know, $20 million, getting valued at $1 billion or selling for healthy nine figures. So it's. It's certainly a strategically valuable space that is going to probably have, you know, more noise than. Than less over the course of the year.

[B]

Yeah. I keep going back to Nate Elliott on the show saying, saying number one request from CMOs is, how is my brand looking in the AI?

[D]

Yep. Agreed. Other stuff, I want to ask you this thing. So this quote you put in the notes from Senator Ron Wyden was scary to me. I'll quote it and then you give us the backstory. We should start treating the ad tech industry as a national security threat.

[B]

Indeed. It's all the blue blazers. I think we're coming after them. It's like a January 6th situation, except it's like dudes with blue blazers and gingham shirts. No.

[D]

Talk about a AI image that's waiting.

[B]

Yeah. So an AI that.

[D]

No.

[B]

What. What Senator Wyden was talking about is a real concern. It's location data. It's always location data. So basically they came out that you can use commonly brokered location data to find US Troops where they are overseas, because location data doesn't know what it should not show. And you don't need personally identifiable information. You just need the location. You can infer all kinds of things that are happening around the world. I am on the record saying I think location data sales should be banned, like, fully banned, like coppa, which is not a very popular point of view in this industry, but I really think it. And then, interestingly, I think Alan Chappelle pointed out on Twitter that Connecticut just passed a ban. So I may be getting this. I should have this in the notes, but I don't. I think the Net is that 25% of the US population now lives in states that ban location data sales. And yeah, and it's increasing, and it's good that it's increasing. There's no way to make it safe. There is no way. You can't make it less precise because a place like New York City being 100ft off is less precise. But if you're in Wyoming, 100ft doesn't mean anything. And you can't bundle it. You can't put 10 users and call it a cohort because One of those 10 users hung out at your house all the time. And you could figure it out and so on and so forth. And the more gymnastics you go into to make it safe. It just doesn't work. It's unsafe by its nature and it should not be. It should be protected. Like, like personal information like Social Security, credit cards.

[D]

Yeah, impossible or very difficult to argue with that one. Although I'm sure somebody's going to come and try to start the argument with you.

[B]

Well, there are a lot of companies are dependent on it. So yeah, like it or not, I don't love that.

[D]

It was the ad tech industry.

[B]

Right. This is, this is ad tec is blamed for things that are like, there are. There have been situations where search data's got leaked and then they say, oh, it's the, it's the surveillance capitalism is the ad tech industry or location data or things like that, or people listening to the conversations on your phone. Right. So, you know, it's a. There's also a pretty big branding problem that the ad tech industry has.

[D]

You know, that's so interesting. I was listening to Marc Andreessen on, on Rogan. I think they. It was. The interview was posted last week or this week. It's good. It's like wide ranging. Mark is super intelligent. I know might not be your favorite, but it was really good. One of the things he made the point of was that the AI industry just does itself no favors. And with some of the companies just like anti pr, anti anti good branding, it's wild that an industry like ad tech, which is all about. There's a subset of marketing and communications, has an issue like this. And like, maybe we should do something about it.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I think the AI industry putting out ads, like billboard ads like stop hiring humans. I mean, what are you thinking? What are you doing, man?

[D]

Yeah, that's what you, that's, that's what Andreessen was pointing to. And you know, some, some of the, you know, the narratives put out by some of the CEOs.

[B]

For certain, he's the guy who invested in Cluli, whose motto was cheat on everything. So, you know, he should maybe look in the mirror a little bit on that one.

[D]

I think Andreessen Horowitz has invested in like over a thousand companies. I don't know if he necessarily like directly, you know, made that investment. I'm no apologist for Marc Andreessen, but you know, just how these firms work. It's a big firm, man, with a lot of money and a lot of, a lot of partners doing a bunch of things.

[B]

To address your point, I don't, I don't know that the nuance of like privacy is, is important, but we use your data in a safe way has never worked. It's really hard to get across. And I don't know if they're ever going to be able to win that argument.

[D]

No, that's not the argument to win. But I think, you know, the argument around all of these services that remain free, you know, due to advertising, all of the people that get access to information and services and tools because of advertising, like that higher level stuff, it's still like nobody does it well. And it's like super frustrating, you know, when you hear this and it's not kind of understood anyway. I don't know. We should do something. Nobody's doing anything. Let's get a committee together.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. Committee to change public opinion about advertising. Let's get on it.

[D]

All right. You want to call it there?

[B]

Yeah, let's call it there. Thanks for listening. This is a great, great conversation with Alex and also, also, you know, pretty interest this week. We'll be back next week.

[D]

See you next week. Thank you for subscribing to marketecture.

[B]

New interviews are added every week at marketecture tv and your favorite podcasting.

[C]

Applause.