E064: Does Conversion Rate Matter? Dylan Ander on CRO Best Practices & Smarter Web Analytics

Summary

Marketing Operators Podcast Summary Episode E064: Does Conversion Rate Matter? Dylan Ander on CRO Best Practices & Smarter Web Analytics Release Date: June 17, 2025

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Introduction and Guest Background

In Episode E064 of Marketing Operators, hosts Cody Plofker, Connor McDonald, and Connor Rowland delve into the critical topic of Conversion Rate Optimization (CRO) with special guest Dylan Ander from Heatmap. Dylan brings a wealth of experience in e-commerce and CRO, having built and sold multiple ventures, including a successful split-testing agency.

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Rethinking Conversion Metrics

One of the central discussions revolves around the effectiveness of traditional conversion rate metrics. Dylan Ander expresses strong opinions on the subject:

Dylan Ander [10:49]: "We hate conversion rate. If you guys... have boards asking 'What's our conversion rate? How's our website doing?', they're missing the bigger picture."

Dylan argues that global conversion rates are often misleading because they ignore the myriad of external factors influencing conversions, such as traffic quality and marketing strategies. Instead, he advocates for more nuanced metrics like page-level conversion rates and Average Order Value (AOV).

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The Significance of Average Order Value (AOV)

AOV emerges as a crucial metric for profitability. Dylan emphasizes its importance over mere conversion rates:

Dylan Ander [13:09]: "AOV is highly underpowered. It doesn't just increase revenue but also profit margins on shipping and everything else."

Both Connor McDonald and Connor Rowland share their experiences, highlighting instances where optimizing for AOV led to significant revenue boosts without compromising overall profitability.

Connor Rowland [16:22]: "We've been driving more orders by offering more optionality, even if it meant a slight dip in AOV, leading to overall higher revenue per user."

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Effective Price Testing Strategies

Price testing is another pivotal area covered in the episode. Dylan underscores its importance and shares actionable strategies:

Dylan Ander [39:29]: "Price testing is one of the biggest levers on the planet. Experiment within the ranges of 5-10% below or above the current price to gauge impact."

Both Connors discuss their experiences with price testing, illustrating how adjustments in pricing can lead to substantial changes in conversion rates and overall revenue.

Connor McDonald [38:10]: "Our favorite price test involved reducing the price of pens by 20%, resulting in a 60% increase in conversion rate and a significant lift in revenue per session."

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Leveraging Heatmap Analytics for Website Optimization

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on Heatmap analytics and how to effectively utilize them for website optimization. Dylan provides a step-by-step walkthrough of analyzing a homepage using Heatmap's metrics.

Dylan Ander [45:14]: "Revenue per session is the most valuable metric we offer. It helps you understand the revenue driven by each element on your page."

He highlights the importance of factors such as font size, navigation structure, and social proof in enhancing user engagement and conversions.

Dylan Ander [72:56]: "Your navigation should include elements like social proof and clear submenu items. For instance, having testimonials in the navigation can significantly boost revenue per click."

Dylan also introduces upcoming features in Heatmap, such as dwell time analysis, which will provide deeper insights into user interactions with content sections.

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E-commerce Funnel Benchmarks

Understanding and benchmarking e-commerce funnels is crucial for assessing website performance. Dylan shares average conversion metrics across various stages of the funnel based on data from over 400 brands.

Dylan Ander [62:34]: "On average, 50% of all sessions view a product page, with a 13% add-to-cart rate. From add to cart, about 42% initiate checkout, and roughly 50% of those complete a purchase."

Cody shares his own funnel metrics, leading to a discussion on the importance of context when interpreting these benchmarks.

Cody [66:13]: "Our add-to-cart rate is 11.9%, slightly below the average, but our checkout to purchase rate is at 42.7%, which aligns well with industry standards."

Dylan advises that benchmarks are only meaningful when considered alongside metrics like AOV, emphasizing that high AOV can offset lower conversion rates.

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Actionable Insights for Marketers

Throughout the episode, Dylan provides numerous actionable insights for marketers aiming to optimize their websites:

1. Optimize Font Sizes:

   Dylan Ander [45:57]: "Your headline should be at least 18pt and body copy no less than 14pt to ensure readability, especially for older demographics."

2. Enhance Navigation: Incorporate elements like social proof, clear submenu items, and descriptive headers to improve user engagement.

3. Utilize Customer Feedback Surveys:

   Dylan Ander [20:00]: "Customer feedback surveys are the most underutilized aspect of CRO. They provide qualitative data that can guide website adjustments effectively."

4. Implement Revenue Metrics: Focus on revenue per session and revenue per click rather than global conversion rates to gain a clearer understanding of element performance.

5. Personalize User Experience: Use personalization tools to dynamically adjust website elements based on user behavior and preferences.

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Conclusion

Episode E064 of Marketing Operators offers a deep dive into the intricacies of CRO beyond traditional metrics. With Dylan Ander’s expertise, the hosts uncover the limitations of relying solely on conversion rates and highlight the pivotal role of AOV and targeted price testing. The practical insights on leveraging Heatmap analytics and understanding funnel benchmarks provide marketers with robust strategies to enhance their e-commerce performance.

Notable Quotes:

• Dylan Ander [10:49]: "Conversion rate is really about business optimization, not just website changes."
• Connor Rowland [16:22]: "Offering more product options can lead to higher revenue per user, even if AOV dips slightly."
• Dylan Ander [39:29]: "Price testing is one of the biggest levers on the planet."

For listeners seeking to optimize their e-commerce strategies, this episode underscores the importance of looking beyond surface metrics and adopting a holistic approach to business optimization.

Transcript

[Cody]

All right. What's up, guys? I have to say I'm a little sad we're not doing this one in person who's great to me in person. How are you guys doing today, dude?

[Connor McDonald]

Feeling fantastic. Glad to be back home though. San Francisco was a long week last week.

[Connor Rowland]

Yeah, but I'm feeling. I'm feeling the remote blues a little bit. It was nice hanging out IRL for. For a change.

[Connor McDonald]

Yeah, it was fun for me. Two days.

[Cody]

I'm curious, your guys big takeaways. Definitely want to. Want to chat. Just maybe some quick recap of the meta summit. Obviously we did the live pod, which was a lot of fun. Operators did the live pod. Both of them are out bonus episode they had Yoni on, which is really co. So definitely want to chat some takeaways. Maybe we'll give it a. A full episode if we want to debrief. But my main ones, Connor McDonald's taller than I expected. Also cooler hair. I. You don't get like the full picture of it from just like, you know, Riverside, but. But cooler hair. And Connor Rowland is more jacked than I expected.

[Connor McDonald]

Oh, dude. Yeah. Connor rolling big in person.

[Cody]

And I was asking, we. We were in lunch when I was asking, I was like, dude, like, what are you doing for lifting? He said, I just do some yoga. I go on some hikes, do some juice.

[Connor Rowland]

Juice cleanses.

[Connor McDonald]

That was the last dude that was to talk to everybody.

[Cody]

London, like Jason everywhere. It was like just talking about your juice cleanses, dude.

[Connor Rowland]

You guys got to get on the juice cleanse once or twice a year. Flush the system, game changer, mental clarity through the roof.

[Cody]

Also my other takeaway, Sean is Sean. Same on Twitter, same in person, same real life.

[Connor McDonald]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's accurate. You know what, one of my takeaways, this is a bit different, but it was so refreshing being around fellow marketing and e commerce dorks. Like, I was at topgolf on Tuesday and I went into a conversation with someone, someone random, just met him. We're like having beers or whatever we're talking about. Does ear from Meta take site wide conversion rate into account and if it does and you're driving low quality traffic, should you be delaying your metapixel? This is something in order to like have an artificially high conversion rate for meta for a higher ear. This is something I've thought quite a bit about. I bet there's like, I don't know, maybe a hundred people who have really thought about that on the planet. Like, not a lot. And like him and I both like went deep on it and we both were like, yeah, we've thought about all these different things. He was like, we've been trying that whatever. And it's just so funny to have those interactions in real life.

[Cody]

So nerdy. Connor R. What do you mean?

[Dylan Ender]

I actually have a bunch of opinions on that, but I don't know if that's for this pod.

[Connor Rowland]

It might be.

[Cody]

Connor R. How about you?

[Connor Rowland]

I mean it was, it was great. It was cool to meet a bunch of people I haven't, I hadn't met before see a bunch of people I had met online and hadn't met in person. And yeah, I think we're, I think we are probably in order for a a recap episode. There's a lot that was went over but the, the summary was they're just tripling down on AI and I'd say that the majority of it what is like back end improvements to their technology. I think there's a lot of front end stuff that they're developing too. Like the generative AI creative stuff I'm really excited about. We're actually going to meet with, with our reps next week and kind of put that into like, you know, operationalize it a little bit and decide how we can actually use that. But yeah, I mean it was like everything front and back end a lot of talk about them optimizing their, their algorithm for increment incremental orders versus I guess just orders in general, which is exciting to, to kind of see them align their technology with what we all care a lot about. So yeah, I mean it sounds like meta is listening to, to marketers and.

[Cody]

Like like literally probably listening right now, right?

[Connor Rowland]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. So that's, it's cool to see like it, you know it. They're listening, they care and it seems to be working like our meta performance is as good as it's ever been and like part of that is we're not spending as much there. But I do think part of that is likely based on some of the changes they're making to their technology.

[Cody]

Yeah, totally great now I think it'd be good once it does settles to do like a fuller recap but excited to introduce our guest. We have a very special guest but before we do as always want to thank our spons. We've got motion after Cell prescient Revo and Rich panel. Without you guys a show would not be possible. But let's get into it. Episode 64.

[Connor Rowland]

Okay, I just sent my entire team an email about this training that Motion's putting on and you guys are going to block your calendars for this. Every operator I talk to is thinking about how to build lean teams and become more efficient and AI is an obvious part of this. We talk about it on the marketing operators all the time because they can automate time consuming parts of the creative strategy process. And Motion, our sponsor, they're doing a live virtual event series with five sessions on how to adapt timeless advertising principles to the new era of AI first ad production. This is their legendary virtual event series make ads that convert. Last year over 11,000 DTC marketers registered for it and it is going to be a banger. Listen to these topics and just an elite cast of the best of the best experts you you'll hear from names like Alex Cooper, Jimmy Slagel, Jacob Pasell, Dara Denny, Kelly Rocklin, Mirella Crespi and Barry Hot. A few of the topics that they're going to go over. Using AI for deep customer research Advanced prompting techniques for ads that don't look AI generated making sure your AI ads actually sell physical products using AI actors and voice models for scalable UGC Building a lean AI augmented team of 2025 here's one session that really caught my eye. It features Kelly Rocklin and she is going deep into using AI to make scalable UGC with AI actors and voiceovers without it sounding cringe. How to spin up high volume messaging tests using AI agents Super interested in what she's learned here. Expand on what already works without replacing the human spark that makes it work in the first place. How to test creative like a craftsperson, not a chaos agent. How to build internal creative testing systems for your AI creative, just to name a few. It's going to be really really good. Highly recommend registering if you want to check it out, go register for this. It's free and it's five total sessions. You can register at motion app.com forward/make-ads-that-convert that is motion app.com forward slash make-ads-that-convert.

[Cody]

We've got Dylan Ender from Heatmap. Is it heatmap.com and formerly what was your. What was your agency? Was it=testing/tyson.com awesome. You probably need no introduction in the space, but give us a quick who you are, what you've done, why people should listen to you.

[Dylan Ender]

I don't know. I'm just a nerd that does ecom just I think like the rest of us. But I built my first two E Comm stores in College, you know, shout out New Yorkers, went to Austra and yeah, sold one before I graduated one a little bit after. Had an SEO media buying agency after school. Had like Geico Planet Fitness paying six figure monthly contracts so. And a lot of the big ones as well. Sold that one and then at four different failed ventures where I lost pretty much all my money for my exits and you know, build it back up. On starting the agency again, I'd always split tested stuff a lot like shout out to Ezra Firestone and Zipify. Like way back in the day Ezra.

[Cody]

On the pod one day.

[Dylan Ender]

Oh I, I can, I can text connect you guys if you want. He's the absolute bomb.com as honestly more awesome when you get to talk to him. He's the best. He actually taught me what heat maps were in his old YouTube content when I was like 19. So he's, he's got my forever gratitude. But yeah, like you know, started split testing headlines. I'm like, well I got two shots instead of one for these like drop shipping days. Like feel like I'll beat out a competitor if I just try two different hero images or two different headlines which like still holds true to today. And brands that aren't doing that, like whatever. But yeah, so we built and sold split testing.com, which was one of the largest CRO agencies in Ecom, did of Hexclad, we chew classic, whole bunch of, you know, Claire's awesome brands that we had. And I already started building Heatmap because I was like, well yeah, everything's you know, on the site. Like I see where people are clicking, but are those people buying or not? Because it's very misleading and like I've even made the hot call that, you know, clicks without revenue for Ecom is like borderline unethical data and uber misleading. So had to tie revenue to it took nine months just to make it work and now I can go on and on. But we got value to add, so that's just me.

[Cody]

Awesome man. Well that's cool. Appreciate it. Yeah, I don't know if, do you guys know who Ezra is?

[Connor McDonald]

Yeah, familiar. Not. He wasn't all that influential for me. I, I, I think I missed that.

[Cody]

Okay. I like, I like grew up like watching him. Like I, I learned so much ecom from his courses and from like digital marketer and stuff. So I haven't met him in person, but he' He's a man.

[Dylan Ender]

Have you been to Blue Ribbon before?

[Cody]

I have not been. No, man.

[Dylan Ender]

I guess this is an Ezra like, sponsorship here. But so, like before the Twitter gang found out about it, like, which was maybe like two years ago, I'm going to Ezra's. Like, blue ribbons, It's. They happen twice a year in smart marketers, like membership and like, hands down, some of the most tactical, like the er. Like, you know, like those types of people, those conversations, like, I've loved it forever. And then I saw a bunch of our Twitter friends come in. I'm like, dang it. Like, I love you guys, but, man, this was like my get getaway. So. Highly recommend, especially for meeting other brands. It's super rad.

[Cody]

I would say he's probably one of the people that popularized like post purchase upsells the most. You know, Zipify. Like, that was pretty early. And he was really early in talking even, like, you know, he didn't call him like listicles. Like, I actually feel like he like, popularized a lot of. A lot of stuff everybody's doing today.

[Connor Rowland]

Was that his most successful business? Zipify?

[Dylan Ender]

No. Absolutely.

[Cody]

He had a beauty.

[Dylan Ender]

Brandy Joseph.

[Cody]

Yeah.

[Connor Rowland]

Oh, okay. Got it. Okay.

[Cody]

All right. So, Dylan, we got some questions for you. But yeah, I think. I think he'd be a fun guest. Let me see. Actually, where to start? Let's go general. We'll give you maybe some. Some softballs and then we can get a little bit harder. Connor McDonald had a few good questions. Like, we want to know just like, what are the core web analytics that you track and that you care about? Let's say you are in our seats or you're running an econ brand. Like, what do you look at? You know, when you. Or if you're auditing a friend site. Like, what are you going to look at? You know, how often are you checking in? And then. Yeah, let's go with that.

[Dylan Ender]

Sweet. So I'll talk about a couple of things that I don't look at. We hate conversion rate. If you guys. You know, for board meetings, I found like a lot of the companies, you know, and especially cbg that have boards, like, they're like, what's our conversion rate? How's our website doing? Your conversion rate has way more factors off website than on website that influence your conversion rate. So using like global conversion rate as a metric, you can look at like page by page conversion rate. That does get. Give some insight. But global conversion rate is something that I specifically do not look at. I think AOV is highly underpowered. Like, it's such a big lever that you can move to. Like, it doesn't just increase revenue, but also Profit margin on shipping and everything else. So those are kind of the first two like high level metrics that I'm looking at. Needs no volume because like call it, you know, you know the same metric if you're doing 50,000amonth versus you know, 5 million a month. They're different metrics. More top of funnel. I'm sure you guys know. Sure other people know or as just goes down the more you spend. Unfortunate, but that's kind of the things that I like exclude. Right. So those are the things I don't want to look at and I recommend you guys don't look at either. So what I first do look at then is obviously we want to audit the front end site. It's not a plug to heat map but I've been saying this for years, like almost like 8 to 10 years now. All I need to optimize a website is a heat map, some screen recordings and customer feedback surveys. 5 those 3. The most underutilized thing at all of CRO is customer feedback surveys. So when I ran my agency in my onboarding was we're not even going to start charging you if you don't run a customer feedback survey. We'll give it to you to go send to your emails but like not post purchase. They're very different. So that's the first thing that I actually care about more because I start every keynote, ask your customers what they want, give them what they want and you get what you want, which is money. So the qualitative is actually something that most CROs don't even look at. That's actually that first thing that I want to look at so highly recommend. You don't need to be, you know, to the brands of the size that you guys work at to really work on that as well. I check out site speed. I find even on SEO there's a whole bunch of low hanging fruit that like people don't talk about it but the website is everything channel specific, mission critical and obviously landing pages and but the definition of a landing page is not like a listicle and advertorial, you know, like the long form like most people think. I've been noticing like a lot of the brands on Heatmap that are like highest revenue, sending their traffic straight to Homepage and crushing it. AOV gets quite a bit bigger. Not sure if you guys have found that paid social, paid social traffic running to Homepage is something that I've seen as a big trend. It's kind of like you're walking into a brick and mortar Store. You don't want to like force an exit, right? Like, like you don't want an entrance to be forced for them to walk into a certain aisle. You want them to have the full everything, right? Like go find what you want. Like the purpose of an ad is to get a qualified interested person to the website and then nothing about ads they're not going to buy because the ad they're buying because the website are.

[Cody]

Those, are those like those ads that are running to that. Are those generally like single product or are those like more branded multi product.

[Dylan Ender]

So not catalog ads to the homepage? Like I've seen just a lot of static to homepage like sou like too simple to be true. But I see people ripping, you know, 30, 40K a day on that formula.

[Cody]

Because like for, for the reason I'm asking, like we usually go and we found most success with like a very clear funnel. I think these guys have as well where it's like all right, miracle ball mad miracle landing page. What the foundation had with the foundation landing page. And like we've struggled when like the funnel isn't congruent. Like our main landing pages are single product ones whether it's a list goal or not. And like when we have somebody that uses multiple products, like we don't have a great page. Maybe I'll, I'll try ripping it to the homepage. So that's what I'm, that's what I'm wondering if it's like single product that's going to a homepage or if it's more of like hey, here's just like a branded value prop 100%.

[Dylan Ender]

Well there's also obviously like top, middle, bottom. So if you have, I always say if you're in health, wellness, you know, consumables, you are being a hot damn fool if you're not running listicles or advertorials like long form. Even like cool. Like if you're not running a dedicated lander because there's you know, information to expl explain why you're different, right? So even you know, like for hexcloud, like it's like close enough that I'd say like it's anyone that is true USPS in their product, it's like a very commoditized thing. Like cool. You can kind of rip to product page, rip to homepage. Like that type of stuff makes sense. But for top of funnel, which is where a majority of your traffic is spent, you know, in budget, like yeah, those ones do educate a lot and then retargeting to the homepage is like something that works wonders. And I've seen the trend of ads to PDP with the exception of like DPAs and catalog ads 100% I've seen that trend be running away.

[Cody]

You guys run any paid traffic to.

[Connor Rowland]

Homepage, not to home. We do a bunch of listicles because we are like we're such an expensive product and we need to educate on why we're premium. We started moving a little more up funnel in the sense that we're driving people to collection pages from our landing pages. So like we do a bunch of listicles, we do a bunch of like what I just call like info heavy. They're not a list of but just like an info heavy landing page. And then we're sending more of those to a collection page where it's like we're merchandising the 12 piece set more prominently but we're seeing really good performance just by giving people more optionality. But the homepage is interesting. We're not, we're not doing, I don't think any of that right now.

[Dylan Ender]

So I'll give shout outs to collections pages as well. Beautiful middle and bottom of funnel area just like homepage. Because especially like you know, I'd say more for Conrad Donald like you guys like have such a robust, you know, different types of offerings. Well I mean same to you Roland as well. Like you know there's so many different types of products that like you gotta merchandise somehow. Like Cody, I feel like your homepages like you know if you run ads to you would probably rip more than theirs because like it's pretty concentrated in the types of products you offer. But for you guys there's so many types that like I'm sure you have to segment a whole ton to be able to not just segment based on you know like types and you know ISP is but like you know, actual like you know, top, middle, bottom and per product. So retargeting to collection is another thing that I've been seeing as well.

[Cody]

I'm happy to hear you say the thing about like the research and I'm big on that and I, I said it you know to you and you guys like, like this like AI, you know, research thing that we started using because I personally they suck at like I don't have, I have too much add to do recordings. I'm curious like how you think about recordings.

[Dylan Ender]

I.

[Cody]

We're Heat Map customers. Like I use it. I, I have questions about it because I, I don't feel like I get it enough to be able to like create a testing roadmap or like build digital product based on it. Like the the insights are not as clear as I would like them to be but when I do like user research I have just like pages and pages of notes of things. So like I find and I'm sure you probably use combination of qualitative and quantitative but like I find so much more value and I get so many more insights into actually hearing from customers. Like oh yeah, this was confusing to me.

[Connor McDonald]

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[Dylan Ender]

So I'm going to give the craziest hot Take me as a CRO. Screen recordings are nowhere near as important as the other features we have. It's just that we would get slaughtered in the market if we didn't have screen recordings as well. There's some CROs that do take that time. Cody, I don't know the last time you've been in, but we did add intent scores and we do tie to revenue Filter Love to hear that. Now with the analytics you can actually be in there even more. But like that's wicked cool to hear. So yeah, that's kind of, that's kind of what we've been seeing. So screen recordings, they do take a heck ton of time. But for your add the best part, like email feedback surveys, like the thing is the way that I say, I always say look like if you're doing it for the first time, take your past 90 day purchasers and expert tip your last 90 day non purchasers that have visited the website. So you're asking these people questions that start with what and how. Like what, what's interesting? Like what's most important to you when buying, you know, you know, something you put on your face. What's most important you and you know, looking for sneakers for example. Like you know, never, never start with why because that makes people defensive subconsciously. So it's a little another fun fact. So if it's like why do you buy this type of product? They're like oh well, I don't have to explain myself. So subtle thing on customer feedback surveys but never want more than six to eight questions. Shoot one out for you know, what made them purchase. But it has to be no one that is less than call it like 7 days. So like 7 to 90 days up to 180 if you want like that if it's. If you don't have a super seasonal product that totally works, you send that out. Toss it into chat if you'd like. On heatmap, we actually have the feature native. We added it about a month and a half ago. So you can send it right there. Does all the analysis tosses the AI together with everything else. So that is like hands down like you want to find your true USP is just ask your customers, they will literally tell you.

[Connor McDonald]

So I have a question on this because I was expecting to hear questions about like and maybe I'm, I'm thinking about it too literally but like site usability where it's like oh, did you have any issues purchasing today? Or something. Like when I think CRO I'm like oh, let's identify what parts of the web experience are people valuing or struggling with or whatever else. But what you're saying is actually customer surveys or prospect surveys to just identify usps. So then you're taking in like qualitative data and then you're applying that to like how you actually want to adjust the website so there's like a level of like interpretation between that's That's a.

[Dylan Ender]

Big misnomer about it, right? Like even to operators of your level, you know, that's a very big misconception. The word conversion rate optimization, whoever named it should be pushed off a cliff. Like it's not about your conversion rate. It's really like business optimization. Like I found like when running a CRO agency we would see what our media buying agencies, agencies were doing, the email agencies were doing, but no one was like digging into the customer, digging into the business. Like everything matters. The only way you make a dollar at least you know, in pure D2C is like someone clicking that buy button. So like we were like the, the shepherds to make sure everyone's channels were going well. So I found that like if you really think like in the lens of business optimization, like maybe maybe exclude like you know, Amazon marketplaces. But that's really what matters the most, right? Then beyond what matters the most. We ran over 4,000 split tests at splittesting.com and 8020 of the huge revenue lifting tests is just copywriting and images. All the dev heavy UX maybe with the exception of like bundle builders. That's the one exception that I'll say of UX heavy things. Other than that man, it is just copywriting and images. It's what people see and what they read. That's what makes them buy. Like something being a little bit more convenient down here in a sticky add to cart. Navigation might be 1:1 exceptions. Like there's very exceptions but man, like the, the 95:5 it's really just your copywriting and the images and videos you have on the site. So if you take it from that angle, like you know, heat maps tell you like okay, cool. If people are clicking these sections, this type of content's important to them. Let's make more of it. That's how you can take things that are traditional UX tools and like use it qualitatively. Like I've seen some email marketers that are killing it and like that people go to the navigation after they send it from an email and like they're now maybe pushing it to that page. There's a ton that you can do. But it's just really the same with the ad creative. Like if you're a media buyer, like you're not going to be sending the same ad creative everywhere. It's like ad creative is possibly the most important. I'm sure like you guys could you know, have done a bajillion of debates about like targeting versus your ad creatives. Like I'M of the belief that like your ad creative is your targeting think about the same in your website so your creative. So like that's why I have such a heavy angle and like bias towards that and just based on results over.

[Connor Rowland]

Time I can confirm that. By the way, I mean some of our like biggest just content based lifts in our zero testing have been from these not, not images. But we, we produce like a hero hype reel for every new product we make and for some of our product categories and just like placing a really beautifully shot thumbnail on top of our hero image on the product page that people can click and get a full screen experience has driven massive improvements in revenue per user and now we're shooting those every single new product we make because of that.

[Dylan Ender]

Good for you.

[Connor McDonald]

You know I was gonna say I like the point around conversion rate optimization being like a really problematic term for the space. I, I, I had the craziest conversation. This is a couple months ago but I have a buddy at a brand and they're pretty big, they're doing 20 or 30 million dollars a year. And he, and he asked me, he said what's your guys conversion rate? And honestly I don't really know sitewide conversion rate. I was like roughly 1 to 2% or something. He goes yeah, you know like we're just having trouble. The board says I need a conversion rate over two and a half percent. And I'm like oh my God. I'm like dude, you should leave. If, if the leadership is like prescribing these like these meaningless metrics that you have to hold yourselves to, it's like they're just like strangling the business. And I think people haven't embraced that, that like ultimately that blended number means so little and like having strong opinions about it can be like very limiting a hundred percent.

[Dylan Ender]

So I'll give you kind of the rant as to why like conversion rate. That's what I always say. Like to be honest, like everyone's like known online for something if you got a personal brand like we all do. Like honestly I'm cool being the conversion rate guy even as the CRO dude. So like if you think about it, okay, so if you, you guys want to triple your conversion rate like in the next 24 hours, cut all your ads and send five emails and great, your conversion rate will probably triple, maybe even quadruple. Rock and roll. Should that you do that for your business. Probably not. So also you know like what will cut your conversion rate in half? Double your top of funnel Spend. It's going to happen. So there's one thing that's outside of your website that doesn't change if you're a seasonal business. If you're selling, you know, like. Actually, Connor, I'm curious. Well, both Connors, I'm curious, do you guys find that your product is seasonal at all? Like, I would think, like less than others, but probably yours, the larger aov, right?

[Connor Rowland]

Yeah. So, I mean, we'll do over half of our revenue in the last two months of the year.

[Dylan Ender]

I'd say that's common for the more, you know, Black Friday like, crowd for sure. But I would, I would guess it's not as much about like the winter of it all, per se. So, yeah, that's, that's one thing I find interesting. So seasonality. If you're selling surfboards in winter, do you really expect your conversion rate to be the same? No. Same website, nothing changes. Let's say you're out of stock of one of your top three sellers. Conversion rate's going to plummet. That's not to do with your website. Let's take things like a competitor that's starting to bash, you know, 100k in ads a day. You're gonna have different inventory. Also, there's so much difference in the ad creatives. Let's say you have a higher percentage of testing in your, in your ads that you're running. Like, may not be as qualified, may not be, you know, PI's roas or whatever metric you guys care about, but that's really one of the things, you know, that's kind of pretty important. So, like, you know, I can, I can list like 10 more of these of like, things that are just completely unrelated to the website that affect conversion rate of quality of traffic and all of that stuff. So why blame your website for conversion rate? It's literally all of your marketing. That's what's important.

[Connor McDonald]

Oh yeah, it's all of your marketing. It's the economy, like I said, you know when conversion rates were good, when the government was giving everybody stimulus checks. Yeah, that was some, that was some CRO optimization.

[Dylan Ender]

100%.

[Cody]

Our conversion rate is up, you know, year over year, like pretty pretty significantly. And I'll tell you, our, our business is not where I would like to be. Our acquisition performance is definitely not up, but we just have way more repeat customers than we used to. And like two years ago we were like 70% new. Obviously we've stacked the repeat cohort. So last year was probably like 60, 40 new returning. We'll do more returning revenue than new this year. So a lot more of our traffic is repeat, which is obviously going to convert better. Like, and I'm, I'm very happy. I don't bonus somebody based off conversion or.

[Dylan Ender]

Right.

[Cody]

Because it's not like our site is any better than it used to be.

[Dylan Ender]

Yeah, there were, there were some, you know, conversion rate focused clients in the agency that like, you know, I asked like, cool, what's your goals? Why are you coming to us? Like, you know, what makes you even want to hire a CRO agency? And they're like, we're struggling with our conversion rate. I immediately go into the conversion rate conversation. I'm like, cool. Like, if that's what you're trying to optimize for. We are not your agency. If you want to increase ebitda, if you want to, you know, get as many new customers as possible because like, some people are fine, like, you know, losing money on first purchase because they know they're going to come back so much. Just probably more like yours, Cody. So it's like, you know, cool. If people have specific goals, then I'd, you know, even consider them as clients. But no, those, those conversion rate people, like, you know. Nah.

[Connor McDonald]

Now if you were to, if, I mean, just for the listeners to be clear, if you were to split test pages and you've changed copy and images, you would be looking at something like a conversion rate in that, that in that instance as like the metric that you're trying to change. It's just the, like, it's the more blended general conversion rate that you care less about. Like, you care about it relative to what you had before or directionally if you're a B testing something, but then it kind of after that, you don't really care about it. Is that okay? Okay. Okay, perfect.

[Cody]

Well, can I guess what Dylan's gonna say? Can I guess?

[Dylan Ender]

Do it.

[Cody]

You care about revenue per session and.

[Connor McDonald]

Okay, okay, okay. Of course. I'll, I'll let you. We're good. We're in agreement. We're in agreement. But you'll look at it, right?

[Cody]

You'll, you'll look at a test and be like, hey, this one, this variant increased conversion rate but decreased aov. So it's, you know, worse per session or something like that.

[Connor McDonald]

Right.

[Cody]

Like, you still look at it. It's not what you're optimizing for.

[Dylan Ender]

It's like the. I, I use it to help contextualize.

[Connor McDonald]

Yes.

[Dylan Ender]

What's going on. But like, it's honestly no more than 5 to 10% it's just like a quick check if it looks similar, if it's like completely dropped off a cliff. Like that's the one exception that like if something is dropped off a cliff, there could be a bug in the test. Like you know, like there's stuff like that that like if we're looking like 30, 40% lower, like yeah, I'll go take a look at it. But other than that for judging like you know, a genuinely statistically significant, statistically powered, which most people don't know either test, then yeah, we'll, we'll take a look at it. But no, that's not, you know, not the thing by any means. So.

[Connor McDonald]

But, but you would you do like revenue percent in the, in the example that I gave your test and copy and images. Revenue percent would be the metric that you care about influencing or 100. Yeah. You could even go down to profit per visit if you want. But like those are the, those relative to users is what you care about more.

[Dylan Ender]

Yeah. So you know, there's not too many softwares that offer profit per visit. Funny enough I. It's kind of like a nice to have to me because if revenue processions going up and especially aov, that's the one that I look at, you know, honestly, equally like how's aov? How's revenue per session? Because if your AOV drops, revenue per session will likely drop or stay the same. So I'd rather take a higher like especially for you guys as you're in the weeds. Like I'd rather take slightly less purchases with a higher AOVA if revenue per session was the same. Right. So let's say we take a little bit less sessions or like a slightly lower conversion rate, slightly higher aov. That's my profile of revenue per session that I prefer because your contribution margin is higher than if it was the inverse. If it's the inverse and you care about getting as many new customers in the door, you know, a lower AOV with more purchases then that works. But for nine times out of 10, I think most people care about profit versus growth at all costs. That was a, you know, 2020 teens thing.

[Connor McDonald]

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[Cody]

I was, I was gonna ask that. That was gonna be my next question. So you're saying, just to be clear, let's say you ran a test and you had two variations, same revenue per session, but one got there with better conversion rate, lower aov. The other one had lower conversion rate, better aova. You're picking the better AOV for a majority of brands.

[Dylan Ender]

Because I've, I've come like service side, you know that like, it's like, hey, what do you care about getting more customers or profitability?

[Cody]

And so you're saying landed gross margin is better, like, because shipping is less of a percent. Okay.

[Dylan Ender]

So yeah, the. The answer is AOV, obviously. Like, you know, nothing is 100% across the board, but I'm comfortable making that recommendation across the board because if you just do the math, it's like less per shipping per order. Like, it's a better contribution mar by percentage. So to those who don't know, you guys, I'm sure know, but you know, to those who may not out there.

[Cody]

I, I agree with that. I'm curious what the Connor think, but that's kind of the way I've gone and, and I've always felt like, and maybe this is nonsense, but like, all right, let's take the AOV win. Like, that's great. And like we can find other stuff that lifts conversion rate that like, shouldn't decrease aov. Like, I can test some more trust signals. Maybe we lost 5% on conversion rate on compared to, you know, our control. Like, we can then go and test into that and it might be easier to lift versus AOV is like, let's take that win when we can get it Connors. How do you guys feel about it?

[Connor McDonald]

Yeah, we've almost always found that increasing AOV has been what's best for the business. I do think it's incredibly brand dependent and I also think it's incredibly consumer dependent. We talked about this a couple weeks ago and one, we found a lot of wins that decreasing the price 20% we can increase conversion rate 50% percent and revenue procession is just a combination of the two of those things. That's why I'm like conversion rate naov, both matter and then together that's kind of how you get to revenue procession. So we found a lot of wins going the other way. Now what I'm describing is not like net net neutral on a revenue percent basis. We found revenue percent improvements by reducing aov. The only thing that I said, and this is what we talked about a couple weeks ago was if I were acquiring net net revenue procession the same. But can I get it at a lower AOV and a higher conversion rate? 1, there might be value you to having more product out in the world. Two, you're sending more signal back to Meta. So that, that's what we just went through this experience where we could basically drive 50 more orders at a 30 lower AOVs. It was net, net the same. But I was like I'd almost rather drive more orders, I'd rather send more signal back to Meta, optimize quicker, things like that. So that's how I would take the other side of that argument. But all to say we, we've landed on both sides over time. Yeah.

[Connor Rowland]

Yeah, we've actually been seeing it. I mean it's been both over time. I mean like we, we, we offer these like thousand dollars, $1,400 bundles now every single sale sale period and just rebrand them. Those have been huge for in increasing AOV more recently I've taken the stance that we need to have better offers to let people try the brand out while still pushing people into the higher bundles through just price merchandising. And like I've struggled to make that argument with leadership because their, their big pushback is well, we don't want to cannibalize our set sales. And my, my take is I think the increase in conversion rate will get will way outweigh the cannibalization we see in set sales. And that's exactly what happened. Like we've, we've tested this over mother' we did see AOV drop like 40 bucks. I mean it was still really, really high but the conversion rate increased like 20%. So our revenue per user was up like 15%. So I'm like, all right, guys, this is a better experience. We are losing a small percentage of set sales. That's fine because we're getting way more new customers and repeat customers coming in and buying, because we have offers that are a little bit more for the person that wants to try out a single pot or pan, which, by the way, is still like $150 order. So. So we. We've seen it go both ways as well, but totally agree. I think it. I think it depends on the business, but that's where I've been actually more focused recently is the conversion rate wins because we've just. We've merchandised this, like, 700 set so prominently for so long, and I think there's this whole other cohort of people that want to buy a pot or a pan or maybe two and then come back and buy more later on. And I'd rather have them buy something than nothing. And we've. We've proven that that is the. The. The. The best case scenario with these. These split tests we ran.

[Dylan Ender]

Super interesting. So, question, Connor, before, if I get to the pleasure of asking the operators a question, you. You mentioned price testing. How do you guys view price testing? Is that something you've, like, you know, beat to death in the pod before, or is that something you guys maybe want to dive in on?

[Connor McDonald]

We have. I would. Would definitely not beat to death.

[Connor Rowland]

I wouldn't.

[Connor McDonald]

I wouldn't say it's gone that far. Do we do quite a bit of it? It's been a big focus of ours over the last couple years. I've said before, I think it's highly underutilized by brands. And especially, like, once you're doing tens of millions or a hundred million plus or whatever, there's like, my favorite test we've ever price. My favorite price test we've ever ran was on pens. Not a big part of our business. Incredibly small, frankly. But doing the price test that we did, like, 18 months ago, and that was like a 20% reduction in price, 60% increase in conversion rate. So big lift in revenue per session. That's hundreds of thousands of dollars. It's was more or less just going straight to the. The bottom line. And that's just like, price audience fit that we, like, were missing for a very long time. And once we figured out what worked better, we just started selling way more pens.

[Connor Rowland]

So.

[Connor McDonald]

Yeah.

[Dylan Ender]

What's that price audience fit? That's a bar.

[Connor McDonald]

Yeah, totally. And the thing is, also, it changes over time. And that's where I'm like we got away with increasing prices for a really long time and driving higher bundles. But like price audience fit changes depending on what consumers need at that time. And like I would say right now for consumers it's significantly different than it was in 2021. So like we have to adjust our pricing and bundling and average order value strategies. But what's, what's your take on price testing?

[Cody]

We did our first price test in Q1 of this year. We didn't do a, any price increase since we launched like almost four and a half years ago. So we wanted to. But before just you know, rolling it out, I wanted to test it. So we did. We, we ended up rolling it out. We, we did see a slight in like revenue procession but it wasn't enough where we thought it. We, we still thought it was worthwhile obviously. Like we get better gross margin and we got a lot obviously like at our scale, like we got a lot of feedback like a lot of people were noticing. So I do think they were anchoring it to the old price a little bit and maybe that you know, co founds the data. But again regardless, it was worth it and, and things kind of stabilized. We saw a slight dip in conversion rate after it. So it was worthwhile. But I think for us, yeah, there was a lot of operational stuff and feedback where like I don't think it would be a great evergreen thing for us. And, and people are like, we have this like group of like 80,000 people in a Facebook group and they just notice everything and like if like it's like a scent off and like I've heard like Sean and Connor talk about it like customers like don't realize like maybe it's different brand to brand and, and, and I'm, I'm totally fine with it. And I think the like it. There is a ton of, and value in doing it especially I think if you're like a promotional brand or doing offers. Like what is a better discount percentage? Like if I was going to run a discount on anything, like I would, I would absolutely do it. But yeah, there was just a lot, a lot of feedback. So it's not something I think we'll do like a ton of ongoing but I'm all about like you know, free shipping threshold stuff like that. Like we work with pdq so we're always testing, you know, different shipping options methods. Like I think that's there's a lot of untapped potential in there that we've seen Some pretty good lifts with agree.

[Dylan Ender]

Offer testing is one of the biggest levers on the planet. What about you, Connor?

[Connor Rowland]

Yeah, yeah, we do it. Honestly, not as much as I would like to. We've definitely, it's become a stronger muscle. Sarah, Aprons is a good example. Like I, I think we launched our aprons at too high of a price point. We price tested it and really the same thing we saw is that mother's day offer test AOV came down but conversion rate went way up and it, and it was impossible not to conclude that the lower price point was driving more revenue on our aprons funnels. So it's something we're starting to do more and more instead of just assuming we can, you know, put these prices as high as we, as we want and, and just continue to sell those products. But I, I think most brands like overlook that. I mean that is probably the, the place to start when you're optimizing any funnel. It's like you could have the best creative in the world, the best copy in the world, the best positioning in the world, but if, if the price is off, like it's all for not so we're, we're, I'm trying to like make that a stronger muscle. Like let's start there instead of thinking like what's the, the you know, what's the new version of this landing page that's going to scale? It's like, well if we can just make that, that, that traffic convert 10, 15% better, like maybe we don't need to make another iterative landing page and we've just solved a lot of our problems.

[Dylan Ender]

Yeah, you nailed it. I, A little side note, this is almost a vent, but I, I as a serial entrepreneur bin brand side, bin agency side, now SaaS side, which makes my brain spin every day. It's wild price testing and e comm can kind of be pretty straightforward. The hardest practice in my entire entrepreneurial career is SaaS pricing. It's been the most wild thing to most of those that, you know, a lot of brands that hate us SaaS slingers out there, man, it's been the hardest thing. Like we went like stupid low to get people to come in. Just like for you guys like an intro offer. We just launched our web analytics like you know, know 29 bucks a month. Like even for $100 million brands or day one zero brands at 29 bucks a month because everyone needs these analytics and like I feel like it's like our duty to make sure everyone has this and like, you know, whatever I'm not going to go too far into it, but good lord has been like the hardest practice in my entire career. So price testing. I'm pretty hot on my tldr on like, you know, ecom price testing for sure. I love seeing a 5 to 10% below low. I like seeing a 5 to 10% high at higher, and then I like to see a 20 to 25% higher. Those are typically my ranges that I look at. If you're going to run, you guys have the, you know, beautiful luxury of a ton of traffic. So some people may not be able to do that, but, like, you know, choose that range below or above, like, you know, and you don't want to necessarily be like 86 versus 89. Like, there's a lot of methodology that goes behind that. A fun fact for you, ending in 9 is a. Is a CPG E commerce thing for, like, software and for services and other things. There's psychology that the number seven being the ending is actually works a little bit better. But sometimes for, you know, things it does. Like being 87 versus 89. 87 feels a lot more palatable for SaaS if you think about it, like, just subconsciously. But then for like, you know, a product, like having it 89 or $90 might actually convert better, which is pretty crazy. So there is psychology of numbers. Like Sarah Levinger, if you guys, you know, get to talk with her. She's a freaking queen and has taught me a lot about that as well, which has been another really cool deep dive.

[Cody]

I want to chat heat map analytics stuff. I want to get better at heat maps. What if I share my screen and Dylan, you can just like, show me how you would look at it.

[Connor McDonald]

Oh, dude, hell yeah.

[Dylan Ender]

Done.

[Cody]

Cool. All right, cool, cool. You seeing that? So I just pulled up homepage and happy to share this. On the iPhone, I'll look at it and I'll be like, all right, cool people are clicking a button, but I'd be really worried if they're not clicking a button, right? So obviously you can tell and see where people are clicking on, but it's a lot of the obvious things where it's like, all right, cool people are clicking on it. Walk me through it. Dylan, what would you look at? What would you want to see? Should I pull up a data table?

[Dylan Ender]

You're good. You can keep it there. So let's take a first look. So we're looking at our hero, you follow? All the best practice there. You want human face. You want the product to still be center great Hero image. So that's just. I'll give you the qualitative as well. Your, your. It might even be one of the AI insights. But your headline that you have, there should be at least 18 point font. So that's one thing that I would look at because like, like another thing I saw on your site, you should never ever have less than 14. Typically for an older demographic, never less than 16 point font, ever. If you are anything less than that, just go and do it right now. Don't split test it. You can message me if not. But like, that's just a guaranteed yes. So that text is way too small there.

[Cody]

Are you talking headline or body copy?

[Dylan Ender]

No copy on a website should ever be less than 14. No headline should ever be less than 18. Okay, cool, cool. So like you said, scroll down a little bit. Those are all pretty standard, pretty common. So now where we get interesting. So open up that data table and slide it out, just a drop. Cool. So, yeah, so revenue per session and revenue per click, like we call it E cvr like of element conversion rate. This is not the conversion rate of everything. But you're, you know, let's say your header. If someone clicks on it, like there was, you know, 120,000 clicks on there, 10% of those people went on to buy, whether it was direct from here, a different page. We aggregate all the sessions everywhere. That's how heat maps work, which is like, well, we're the only one that ties to revenue, so it does that. So now if you go in and dive in, there's a couple, couple of things here. So what we see is the revenue per session, which is the revenue divided by everyone who clicked on an element divided by the total visitors on the page, which is slightly different than revenue per click. Revenue is the total revenue, like driven by people who clicked on an element divided by the number of clicks. So like in this revenue per session is kind of like the market share of revenue that, you know, that is something on a page of like how much market share comes kind of similar to revenue. But then revenue per click is like how potent potent is this element when people do go and click on it. So that's one thing that's really important to know the distinction. We got a ton of articles on it that's like really crucial. We're the only ones that have this metric and that's like the most valuable one and why I even built it to start. So a couple of things that I see now that are interesting. So one of the fastest Wins on, on KeyMap is like reordering collections tiles. Like it is such a fast and gnarly awesome win. So if you go ahead and click on all four of those, let's just take a look at the revenue per session and one other thing, by the way. So revenue per session is comparing apples to apples. So if you're looking at a bunch of collection tiles together, that's when you want to look at, you know, revenue per session to compare them. If you're looking at like, hey, is this, you know, full width search bar positive on this page? Is it above or below the page average? That's kind of, you know, comparing it to filter options. That's when you want to look at revenue per click and that type of stuff. That's when it's really useful.

[Connor McDonald]

Can I ask a clarifying question here? So like revenue per session for this little product element is $0.75. Is that the value of everyone who saw that element?

[Dylan Ender]

So no, that is revenue per view. That's coming up in the next like month. So what you're seeing here is revenue divided by the total sessions on the page.

[Connor McDonald]

Yeah, but I would imagine like then the. The one next to it, 65 cents. So why are those different? They're both right next to one another on the same page. That's what I'm.

[Dylan Ender]

I need to.

[Cody]

Oh, so it's still click. So it's correct. It's still. It's click data, but then it's just multiplied by number of sessions.

[Dylan Ender]

Right. Well, click is taken out of there. It's total revenue driven by the element regardless of the clicks. That's why it's potency of the element. Does that make sense?

[Cody]

How do you know what revenue is driven by it?

[Dylan Ender]

If someone does click. But that's not part of the calculation.

[Connor McDonald]

Got it.

[Cody]

I'm still a little confused.

[Dylan Ender]

Done it. So let. Let's rock and roll. I'll go through it that like, to be honest, some people use Heat map with just revenue per session and it works beautifully. Reven. Revenue per view is something else. So you also click on that collection tile right there also. So we do have. You can shorten up the table a little bit. So scroll percent. We meant to have that as visibility. I. I gave that in. 58% of people are seeing this. So this is another thing that I look at your target above the fold is for 70% of people to go below the fold. That is a hard metric. But I tell people just optimize above the fold until you get to that number and move down. Obviously because less people see further down on the page and you'll actually notice there's an interesting trend that like people would think the stuff down at the bottom, like, oh, they've scrolled so far, they're more bought in. Like there's more revenue down here. It's actually not true like at all. All that was something that shocked me as I get my hands on more heat map data. So that's like a hard steady metric. You want that 60, 70%. So like 60 is good. Keep going down the page. 70 is golden. Because I told you like you have a great hero section. Like you're good. Like if you even click the all products one right above that, I bet you it'll be even a little bit higher than that. 58% and you go right there, there 15. No one bought but see 70%. You hit the golden. You are one of the, one of the only people that are hitting that metric. That's amazing.

[Cody]

Nice.

[Dylan Ender]

Now let's go into the collection tiles. So good for you, man. Like I said, amazing hero section. So if we click on all four of those to take a look, we'll be able to see. So this one's 47 cents. The first one I think was 75, right?

[Connor McDonald]

Yep.

[Dylan Ender]

My memory serves me cool. Let's go to the third one. That's 65. Look. So that one right there, there and then 60. So those two are driving more than the, the one at the top. Right. So if you either want to remove that with a different product or just toss that to the bottom. It seems like a minor thing, but that's, it's. It's really not a minor thing. Especially like when you're on collections pages. Like some of our AI insights just say, hey, reorder in this way. Same things go with like, you know, FAQs. FAQs are actually one of your most profitable clicks on your website because that's like, you know, people really asking questions and want to learn more. So that's a big one. So the other factor that you have here, so click that. See all that's in the top, right? Let's see if that's good for us or not. Right. So we have a $0.10 revenue per session and a 10 revenue per click. So let's open up that data table again and we're looking at 10 and 10 pretty much. Much your average revenue per session is 23 and 11 on revenue per click. So I'd be quite interested in seeing you remove that see all because compared to page average, I think that See all might be actually hurting you that getting them to either scroll further down, maybe hit the navigation, hit one of those products to start checking them out. The see all is not doing you justice there.

[Connor Rowland]

Dylan, can I ask you, Can I ask a clarifying question about how you would like operationalize this? So are. So you're getting all these insights based on revenue per session, revenue per click, scroll, rate all, all these things and then you're, you're making hypotheses and you're saying, all right, well I think that that top right product card should get like merchandise further down on the page and the, the, the row two should come up because the revenue procession is better. Are you, then would your next. Are you like hot, hot publishing these changes or are you actually saying I want to like validate this and do an actual split test and see, that's a good test.

[Cody]

That's. Sorry, that's a good question.

[Dylan Ender]

Yeah, 100%. So the formal term for my fellow nerds out there, it's actually split testing versus live testing. So live testing is just taking something, putting it on your website, monitoring metrics. The next one is, you know, formal split testing, which we all know. So there's very few that I'm looking at doing like, you know, a live test. The ones typically that are live tests, I'm only looking at site wide or like, let's say all collections pages or all product pages or the navigation which is on every page. Those are ones that hot take. I actually do a lot of live testing on which if you have the luxury of traffic, it takes, you know, two weeks and the data and you know, your dev team to go in and put it in and you know, go into the editor and all that type of stuff. But it's something that's super interesting. So on, you know, site wide ones, those are actually a hot take that I do typically live test.

[Connor Rowland]

So and if you're looking at what are you, are you looking at. Yeah, like what, what data would you be looking at to validate? Are you looking at like a, like a revenue per session in GA or something for that whole page, like period over period or what are you looking at to validate if that, if that live test has like benefited the website's performance?

[Dylan Ender]

Definitely revenue per session on Heat Map. But you can't take a look at ga. Yeah, right, but for the whole.

[Connor Rowland]

Page and just like period over period. Period.

[Dylan Ender]

Yes. So I would take a look at everything the same way for like a split test. Like you can't really see like ROAS or like you know that those type of performance metrics of like ads on those. But you can take a look at that in live testing, which is actually an advantage of live testing. So that's something that I would take a look at as well. So the same way you're looking at your revenue per session, you're looking at your aov, you're looking if there's any outliers in conversion rate, whether high or low. So just like everything we said about measuring a split test test, measuring a live test is the same. But also maybe some email flows are performing even better. So maybe that is a channel that's working well and you might want to send your flows to a duped page that does that. So you know there's a lot to dive into in live testing. Like you got to do a ton, especially if they're bigger ones. So that's kind of what I look like. I mean also I'm a huge fan of duping pages. It's like a really underutilized thing like, especially if you're going to like, like you know, send traffic to it or. No, it's a through proof through through page. Right. Like a view through page. Sorry, couldn't find the word. But yeah, that's, that's another one. I am a big fan of duping like a collections page that comes from a certain like maybe your navbar collections page is just duped with a different headline. That's something. So it's like find your perfect, you know, bomb for example. And it's like, you know, if you're looking for that type of stuff like you know, know because they're going more discovery phase. It's almost like a top and middle this that makes it more of a bottom of funnel because they're a couple of clicks into their session. So duping a page and like changing one or two things actually does so much for you.

[Cody]

You've heard us talk about prescient AI before, we work with them at Jones Road. But you still might be wondering what is it? What is this mmm thing? At its core, Prescient really helps brands get more out of every marketing dollar that they're spending by showing them what's working, what's not and where to spend. The prescient team knows modern marketing is a sum of many things. Your media spend seasonality, other marketing campaigns, consumer sentiment and so much more. That's why they don't rely on pixels biased platform measurement or old research models to help you make the most confident decisions. They truly built Their MMM from the ground up based on models that adapt to your data and evolve over time, not the other way around. If you want to measure the halo effect that your campaigns are having on all of your channels, yep, talking about E commerce, Amazon and even retail depression can help you out. You can test new channels, predict future performance of those channels, know how much you should be spending on each of them and continuously optimize how you spend your budget to make it as efficient as possible. Which listen we all need right now. You can do this all without sacrificing your upper funnel budget or bottom line. KPI's prescient has proven to us how truly incremental and efficient some of our upper funnel channels like TVR that was very hard to measure prior to so if you've been wanting to try Prescient, they just upgraded their model and their vision across measurement and retail is truly next level. They take marketing decision making where it's never been able to go to before. If you want to learn more and gain insights into how you can optimize your entire media mix in as little as 48 hours, then go to prescient AI.com operators and book a demo today. Dylan I love and I've heard you guys talk about it but I love just the reordering thing based on like revenue per session. I I've done it. I've looked at revenue per click so I'll start looking at procession but it's just such a simple tactical one that like I think everybody should do that has heatmap. I also get the see all and comparing that to our kind of full page revenue procession what about if something doesn't have maybe it's a limitation of heat map like like a press bar, something like that. Like something that like you're not supposed to click on but could be driving value. Like how would I know if this or like something like that is even like doing anything for us and should be on the page or should just be removed.

[Dylan Ender]

We got a hot feature coming up because we collect 204 data points per 100 milliseconds which rews bill is painful but what's cool is that we're actually going to be taking a look at dwell time on you know, content sections and seeing if it correlates positively with revenue. So that's something that's very near on the roadmap so we'll be able to tell if like just like plain images and copy sections are like if people read them does this convert higher? I haven't seen Anyone do that yet? Which is like one thing I've always wondered about. So like things I'm wondering about I find are the things you guys are wondering about too. So like that is one thing that's on the roadmap, which I'm pretty pumped about. So my answer is unfortunate limitation of any heat map on the market right now. But for us, we will be able to have that soon.

[Cody]

All right, cool. I didn't even know that. So that's cool.

[Connor McDonald]

I have a question around reordering. I'm always disappointed in the tools available. Like just the shopify default collections is like you can, you can shop by like all time top selling. You could sort by price. But they have no sort of smart collection ordering, which I think is like crazy. There's nothing even slightly dynamic. Is that just a limitation? Do you know, do you know any brands doing cool stuff that can just more automatically. Because what we're describing here is extremely valuable. But for a brand like Ridge, we're launching multiple products. What's popular changes over time. We could oper operationalize this and do this every week or every other week or something like that. But I'd love something more dynamic. Do you know any solutions?

[Dylan Ender]

So, so there are some. The names escape me at the moment. But the real way to do it with control is personalization. So a lot of these split testing platforms say they do personalization. Not to you know, bash my fellow, you know, split testing partners out there, but like some of them do personalization. I found visually IO does like an amazing job at it like for personalizing after a test. So you can have people coming from a certain traffic like you know, source, they're seeing this like ordering. They see, you know, they're coming, returning, they might see this ordering. Right? And it could even be dynamic based on what they bought. So these split test spill split testing platforms, I don't know if you guys have ever heard or used dynamic yield. It's like one of the old school ones, but it's like turned into a personalization platform more than a split testing platform. Like people don't buy it for the purpose of split testing. They buy it for the purpose of personalization. That what you're asking about is personalization which is, is, you know, a clear future of, you know, CRO. Like, like for example, having two landing pages, like having a male and a female as a, as a, you know, hero image, I found that to be really effective. And then having, you know, ads with certain models running men running female. Like probably for the less you know, you know, less for coding, I'd say. But that's something that like, that is personalization. But it's not personalization, it's scale. Like you're asking color honor. So per, like levels of personalization, like, you know, there's the L1s, L2s, but you're kind of looking at that like level 9 and level 10, you know, domination stuff. So that's out there. Typically in the split testing platforms, you could do it post test and then personalize it post test, depending on what platform you're using.

[Connor McDonald]

Awesome.

[Cody]

Dylan. That was cool. That was really helpful. How about funnels? So you guys launched funnels, which I think is cool. I've looked at it and the thing that I don't know is like, I don't know what is good or not, right? Like we have for example, right, like our default purchase, like 54% of people get to a product page, right. You know, 11% of people get to add to cart. Whatever person gets to checkout. Like, I have no idea if that's good or not. So I think theoretically, like anytime I've talked to everybody, like, oh, where are you losing people in the funnel? Let's optimize there. I'm like, I don't know because like it's expected. You're going to lose people. Like I don't know what is good. Do you have benchmarks? I've been pressing you guys for them. Do you have any money that would help steer us in the right direction?

[Dylan Ender]

Sorry, dude, we launched the feeder like two weeks ago. Like, give us some time, man. No, that's.

[Cody]

No, not as much.

[Dylan Ender]

So I'll, I'll give you some high level ones across 400 brands. Some like, you know, this is just what we had at the time earlier. So take a guess the percentage on average across all brands, right? So the first thing when looking at benchmarks. Benchmarks are bulk crap unless you have AOV as a filter. Because AOV is the single biggest, like change that, like Connor's metrics are going to look so different than Cody's. Like Roland specifically, like, they're going to look so wickedly different because like, you know, Cody, where does your AOV sit?

[Cody]

Like little above 100 and he's probably 100.

[Dylan Ender]

Connor, couple hundred minimum.

[Connor Rowland]

Oh, me? Yeah, on first orders, way above that, on repeat. About that.

[Dylan Ender]

So exactly. That's kind of like, you know what we're looking at. Those are two different ball games. So on average across everyone, 50% of all sessions see a product page that is you know, an average, typically what we're seeing is between 45 and 65%. That's one that isn't necessarily as influenced as by AO. Of all the people that see a PDP, an average of 13% of those go and add to cart. So that is one that you can see as a measure of, you know, are we losing a lot on the pdp? A lot of people are just missing, you know, qualitative informational content on the pdp. They just use Shopify's default and ship it and don't do much after that. So that's a big one where I find. So if you're below that 13, but like, Roland, yours is going to be like, like, I think you'd be crushing it if you're a 10. Like on your PDP to add to cart rate, like, that would be obnoxiously amazing. But for Cody, that would not be.

[Connor Rowland]

Blended like add to cart. Right. That's like specifically. So that's not like any session that hits the website and the rate that those sessions add to cart, you're actually saying of the people that hit the product page.

[Dylan Ender]

Correct.

[Connor Rowland]

Got it. Okay.

[Dylan Ender]

Yep. So that's how we have the funnels separated out. You can do all sessions and just jump to add to carts like on that. So if you think about it like 50% and call it 15%. So like, you're going to look at, you know that like 7, 8% add to cart on average across all brands. Well, like 100 visitors, seven or eight add to carts. There's typically a 30% add to cart to purchase rate, and that's a 50% drop and a 50% drop of like beginning checkout and then checkout to purchase. Those are both about 50, so that's what those overall look like. So that's like, Cody, we're gonna get that filter for aov. I promise you'll have them soon. But one area where benchmarks get misleading also, some people push traffic, like a ton of, you know, catalog ads and push it to the product page. It might be like a hundred percent of sessions and 95% of sessions hit product page. Right. So obviously this all gets taken into context. But Cody, for someone like you, if you were at like, like 70% of people from all sessions to viewing a product page, I'd actually call that a red flag. I wouldn't say that you're doing well because that means like, maybe too many are getting to the product page before they're educated enough, before they're interested enough. So funnels can kind of run both ways. But like it's rare I ever say try to get towards the regular benchmarks. This is the like funnels and drop off is like the only place I've ever made that statement.

[Cody]

No, no, that's a good point. It's. It's going to obviously affect everything downstream if you're like quality of traffic or if they're not ready. As I get into it. What about. What about the rest? Do you have benchmarks for add to cart to checkout. Checkout to purchase?

[Dylan Ender]

About 45% and about 50%. So about. Well, 42 is the number that 42% of people that add to cart typically begin checkout. About half of those people that initiate checkout go on to buy. And that's kind of where you get that rough number. 25, 30% of people at add to cart will buy. So again, add to cart to initiate checkout. That's about 42, 43%. And then of everyone who's in checkout, about half those people go on and buy.

[Cody]

Can I tell you ours?

[Dylan Ender]

Please do.

[Cody]

So 54% product viewed. I think you said 50% about.

[Dylan Ender]

Yep.

[Cody]

So a little bit above there. I don't know if that's worrisome above, but a little bit above.

[Dylan Ender]

No, not at all. That's. That's right. In range up to 60 ish percent. Okay.

[Cody]

And we run like a lot of paid landing pages, so I think that would be interesting to look at like different ones because yeah, we run a lot of that in like quiz funnels. So it's a little different, but obviously still a lot of homepage traffic. Add to cart 11.9%. So a little bit below. We actually have a new PDP launching in like a week. I think our PDP is pretty weak. Um, so I'm happy to see that. That we focused correctly. Um, we just did it subjectively.

[Dylan Ender]

I actually drilled your PDP in the conversion rate conference.

[Cody]

Our current one.

[Dylan Ender]

I have some feedback for you. Yeah, your current one.

[Cody]

Oh, great. All right, cool. Would love to see. But yeah, I think our new one is. Is so much better. Checkout 5%. And you said add to cart to checkout. Right.

[Dylan Ender]

Will be about 42% of those. 13. Yeah, sorry.

[Cody]

I'm looking at the checkout conversion rate. Yeah, we're at 42.7% percent.

[Connor McDonald]

Wow.

[Dylan Ender]

There you go. Wait.

[Cody]

PDP to add to cart. I think I skipped that. Right. PDP to add to cart. What should that.

[Connor McDonald]

You said almost 12.

[Dylan Ender]

Yeah, you said 12 and typically 13 is that number.

[Cody]

I'M looking at the wrong thing. Should I be looking at the number that is on like the. The bar or should I be looking at like the green dot where it says like next to completed green dot down there?

[Dylan Ender]

It's the difference between a closed and open funnel. A closed funnel up at the top, it must hit the step before an open funnel, which is effectively the bottom is like. Doesn't matter what order it is, how many times it hit, how many collections page they viewed. That's what those two metrics are. I'll probably add that to our. I'll probably add that to our documentation. A close versus open. That's a really good point.

[Cody]

Got it. Where you're looking better than product to add to cart is 21%.

[Dylan Ender]

So that's probably one to add to cart. That. That is great.

[Cody]

You're.

[Dylan Ender]

You're looking at 13 average.

[Cody]

Okay. Fuck. We maybe that that PDP was a.

[Dylan Ender]

Waste of time, but you're also not on the higher end of AOP V. So. Okay, should be high.

[Cody]

Yeah. Fair. Fair. Yeah. 42% add to cart to checkout and then 56% checkout to purchase.

[Dylan Ender]

That's great. On checkout to purchase, 49 is the average. Okay, so see, the benchmarks aren't full of crap. Let's go for sure.

[Cody]

That's awesome. All right. No, yeah, when. When you have some stuff to filter, that'll be interesting. That'll be cool. But would you say for most brands, like, is that something that's valuable, that if somebody has understanding of the benchmarks like that is a fair way to understand where to think about testing and optimizing their site?

[Dylan Ender]

I rarely say it, but funnels is one of the only places where benchmarks are good.

[Cody]

Awesome. Awesome.

[Connor McDonald]

Dylan, you can just invoice Jones Road for the consultation.

[Connor Rowland]

The live consultation. Split testing.com is back.

[Dylan Ender]

No, I don't know, man. I sold that guy. I can't. I can't rub that name back.

[Cody]

That's awesome.

[Dylan Ender]

But yeah, that's super awesome. Well, I mean, Roland, you're the only one that's not on Heatmap here. I don't need a shame, but I don't know two out of three, dude, I know.

[Connor Rowland]

I want to try it out. I think if you want the funnels.

[Dylan Ender]

It's a whopping 29 bucks.

[Connor Rowland]

I think I might have to get it onboarded and see what our metrics are looking like.

[Dylan Ender]

Two minutes to set up. Easy work. But yeah, that's been all really cool.

[Connor McDonald]

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[Dylan Ender]

Another one. So I don't know if you guys have more general questions. I don't even know a time check, but I could talk about this forever.

[Connor McDonald]

Well actually if I could hit one quickly. We were just talking about PDPs. I was curious. I spoke with someone about like underrated on site behaviors that more brands should track. I talked to someone once and they were like carousel swipes. I was like yeah, no brainer. It's like how far is someone making it through? Dylan, I feel like you might have a perspective here.

[Dylan Ender]

I do. I have this written down as the three most. Can you guys take a guess guess the three most profitable elements for a user to click and and this is also excluding like add to cart buttons. Like forget that one. Like obviously we know but like things that are not directly, you know, adding to cart. What do you think the most profitable buttons are?

[Cody]

I got one.

[Dylan Ender]

It's got to be search elements.

[Connor McDonald]

Search number three is the, is the carousel one.

[Dylan Ender]

That's number two.

[Connor Rowland]

What about like, what about like an like a accordion section in a in in the shop section or like an Accordion button.

[Dylan Ender]

Like F faq.

[Connor Rowland]

Well, I was thinking more if like images like or no, like you go to our ridges page.

[Dylan Ender]

Oh yeah. Like your. Your more details.

[Connor Rowland]

Yeah.

[Dylan Ender]

So I group those in as FAQs. Like accordions. That's number four. Ooh, guys are missing number one.

[Connor Rowland]

So carousel the FAQ.

[Dylan Ender]

So it's not. You're missing number one gallery. Like PDP galleries looking at images. Number three is search. Number four is accordions. For more information, I got a out there gallery.

[Cody]

Yes. Shipping and return policy.

[Dylan Ender]

So that's actually one of the most important things to buy when you run customer feedback surveys. That's actually one of the most important qualitative things. I actually also shouted out Ridge on amazing copywriting where I kind of knocked yours. Cody. I conver my talk at conversion rate conference because their. Their shipping was like. Like it was literally on a sixth grade reading level. Which is the most amazing. Eighth grade's most. You want the number one is guys, your navigation. Oh, profitable. Click on the site no matter what page you're on.

[Connor McDonald]

I should have nailed that one. Was signing up for heat maps. My first takeaway was like, man, our entire site is basically the hamburger menu and collections filters. We're like highly interacted with. It was like, yeah. Just people need to get to where they're going 100%.

[Dylan Ender]

Yeah. I spoke with Mike. He had that same POV. But one thing that we do have which is pretty rad. No other heat map platforms have this. They rebuild the whole thing. We got interactive mode up at the top so you can actually like click, click, open up your navigation, go back to data mode and your navigation comes up with like hot jar. The other ones, you actually have to like take a QR code, hopefully get it on your phone. Half the time it don't work. Like that's why one of the reasons we built it so you can actually open things up that are not in your resting dome, which is what we call like, you know, your resting screenshot. So you're able to do that like right away. Especially for Ridge. I would like hammer that. Like that's the other thing. Another thing also guys, if you like pull open your navigations, I don't think any of the three you guys do that. This social proof in your navigation at the bottom. Easiest thing ever. Like social proof kind of wins everywhere.

[Connor McDonald]

What's.

[Cody]

Who's an example that you like.

[Connor McDonald]

I like true classic a lot. They've got a great one.

[Dylan Ender]

Yes. So they. They've got one of the best navs in the game. So they're great. So also plunge, they're an example I use a lot. So like the, the what's it called? You know, cold plunge. Right. So plunge.com they nail it. There's five. There's five things inside of a nav. I've noticed the trend of having at least one image in the navigation is a more modern behavior that was not always the case. Number two, you're going to want social proof in there. Whether it's review stars of a specific one like plunge has or it's just a testimonial at the bottom. Like just having a testimonial at the bottom. Guys like literally run that. That's something I'm confident you can live test. It's not going to revolutionize your business but it should give a nice like you know, hopefully noticeable bump. Especially in Heat Map. If you're looking at the navigation you go and add that that in. I would imagine revenue per click and revenue per session are going to go up on your navigation. Number three is like a description of some sort of like a product, right? Like you know, men's wallets. Like the most awesome wallets in the game for men. Like that little thing. I'd rather you have more submenu items and more description to the top menu items. That's another thing I found that has like a really good one I think. Cody, I think you guys do that as well. Like just having some level of description. It can literally be four or five words. But that's something that I found. And then something is also like which I think a lot. Cody, I think you might actually even be missing. This is just some element of a clickable thing over on the right which is people just have navigations and they assume you click it. But if you don't have that little plus sign or the little drop down sign or the arrow going to the side. If you don't have that add that in immediately. You can live test that. You can invoice me if that drops your shit. Like no problem. That's like another like easy no brainer I find if people don't have that. So those are kind of like the five elements of like a solid navigation that I found.

[Connor McDonald]

Dude, amazing and super actionable sets. You said number one for most profitable interaction on the site and those are five ways to improve it. I think I've got a nice little to do list here.

[Cody]

Now I am surprised by the social proof. I would have thought like that place in the funnel maybe social proof less important as you get closer to Checkout or PDP or things like that that it becomes more.

[Dylan Ender]

So the thing on social proof is like yeah there's, there's a lot of forms of it. Like, like don't put a video there, like a testimonial video. Just like I find like a text based. I loved using this thing for whatever usp. Oh that's another thing by the way. Hugely underpowered. So we all know social proof is important but when you send a customer feedback survey and find what is most important to you when buying whatever cater your testimonials that are featured to those value props, hugely underused thing. So the videos that you're putting on as like you know, customer videos. They should highlight, highlight those usps that the customers are telling you. The actual text based testimonials, you can reorder them. It doesn't have to just be most recent. You can feature the ones that are most in that usp. Right. And then same with like a text based testimonial you can do that located towards the ones that are, you know, based on the customer feedback survey. So that's another way underutilized one. So Connor, you can also just change around like look at your feedback surveys not post purchase because they haven't used the product yet. Has to be the customer feedback survey over email. So once you find those, that's a huge one, like another big win. You can just do those around. I don't think you need to test that. It's just something that if it's more what the customers want, you're other people are confirming what they specifically want. No brainer.

[Connor McDonald]

Totally.

[Dylan Ender]

Damn. We, we, we heated up on the tactics at the end.

[Cody]

Dude, this was awesome. I, I think, I think on the pod we could do a better job of being more tactical. So I think this was awesome. I, I've got notes, I'm sure all of you guys do. So hopefully people will have some good insights. This was awesome.

[Dylan Ender]

Yeah. Oh one last thing by the way. So in conversion rate conference when I roasted your PDP Cody there. So what you guys should do anything that's more than like two sentences. Just copy and paste it into chat and say hey, what reading, what grade reading level is this?

[Cody]

I used to use Hemingway app. Do you use that? Do people still use.

[Dylan Ender]

You can use Hemingway as well. I just tell everyone chat because they use Hemingway use chat and any copy that you're ever going to put on that's more than one sentence. So two or more always make sure never more than an eighth grade reading level. Especially for products like yours, Cody, you were at like a, I think like a 10th grade reading level on what you had. So I put it into chat, played around with it a bit. Put it into. I'll send you a screenshot of the side by side. And I put it in and it reads so much easier.

[Cody]

Yeah, I'm actually testing that right now. But I, I've always hated. It was like this super. We had this like copyright when we launch launched that was like super, like editorial brandy. Like I, I know which one you're talking about and it's just like it was working. But I, I agree with you.

[Connor McDonald]

We.

[Cody]

We're working with the CRO agency you recommended. One cool thing they do is they don't. I don't know how you feel about it. They don't run any A B tests. Everything is a multivariate. So they're like, if we're going to spin up a test, we're not just going to run two variations. Like we're going to run four or five. Which I think is like, I hadn't heard anybody do that.

[Dylan Ender]

They're. They're not a tremendously huge agency. And that's why like I send only a couple of people over to them. So. So they're one of the best in the game. I've seen the results. Like they're heatmap power users. So like I literally watch, you know, performance go up on some of their clients. Like most of them so highly recommend they. Yeah. Multivariate tests, crush. They're great. Can't recommend them enough. The only time is if you don't have enough traffic. So you have the, you have the luxury that you can always do multivariate.

[Connor McDonald]

But yeah, great episode, I think.

[Cody]

Yeah, that's awesome. Dylan, we're going to have to continue this. We're going to have to have you back on. But, but this was awesome, dude. Thank you so much. A big Heat Map fan. Learned how to use it better today. We didn't mention it. You guys just added analytics. Maybe we'll have to chat about that another time, but excited to check that out. Thank you for all you're doing for the space and thank you for, for coming on and chatting with us.

[Dylan Ender]

Appreciate you guys and thank you for what you guys do for the space too.

[Connor McDonald]

Awesome. Thank you. Dylan.

[Cody]

Man, episode 64, Dylan, he's a killer. That was awesome. I think you guys are really going to like that. I have a list of notes, things that we can do. I understand how to optimize, test our site better. So I think that's awesome.

[Dylan Ender]

Awesome.

[Cody]

Definitely want to get into some of the more tactical things, but I think you guys will enjoy it, so love that one. As always, thank you so much to our sponsors. Motion After Sell Prescient Revo Rich panel. We could not do this without you. That's episode 64. If you enjoyed it, please do us a favor like this on pretty much anywhere you get your podcast. Share it with a friend. Share it with your team. Love getting getting all the positive feedback. Love getting any feedback. Please share it. Subscribe on YouTube and we'll see you next time.