Marketing Operators Podcast, Episode 86
What DTC Can Learn From Enterprise Media – with JMo, VaynerMedia
Date: November 18, 2025
Guests: John Morgenstern (“JMo” – Head of Investment at VaynerMedia)
Hosts: Connor Rolain, Connor MacDonald, Cody Plofker
Episode Overview
This episode brings enterprise media powerhouse John Morgenstern (“JMo”) of VaynerMedia onto the Marketing Operators roundtable. JMo shares the inside scoop on how $1.5B+ in annual media spend is managed, the differences and parallels between Fortune 1000 brands and DTC “challenger” brands, measuring incremental impact, the creative “brandformance” revolution, and why even the world’s boldest brands can’t always be as agile as DTC upstarts. Along the way, the conversation dives into measurement challenges, creative strategy, the purpose of omnichannel and retail media, and key lessons for DTC brands as they scale—or cross into the terrain of CPG giants.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. JMo’s Role & VaynerMedia Scope
Timestamps: [00:00], [04:54], [05:56]
- JMo leads the media buying (“Head of Investment”) division at VaynerMedia, overseeing a team that manages ~$1.5B/year in media for Fortune 1000 clients.
- “Investment is just a fancier term for media buying execution. Meta, TikTok, Google, YouTube are like our dominant partners. But these days, CTV, Amazon, all things retail media, digital audio, like, you name it.” – John Morgenstern [00:13]
- VaynerMedia attracts brands wanting to double down on “modern digital,” with a heavy overlap into social channels, but with growing influence in CTV, retail media, and experimentation.
- They run media and creative for clients like Mondelez (Oreo, Ritz, etc.), JP Morgan Chase, Yeti Coolers, and more.
2. Parallels & Contrasts: DTC vs. Enterprise Brands
Timestamps: [07:04], [09:28], [09:33]
- DTCs are admired as "leading indicators" and are inherently more agile and risk-seeking than Fortune 500 CPGs, which are by nature more risk-averse and bureaucratic.
- Competitive advantage of DTC: "Fortune 500 land can never be as bold and nimble. And that's the competitive advantage that all of you guys have." – John Morgenstern [00:33]
- For juggernauts like Oreo, the limiting factor is brand/category perception, not mere sales: “When you’re the category leader you need to grow the category…" [09:33]
- DTC goals are direct sales and performance efficiency. Enterprise/CPG goals expand to household penetration, omnichannel (retail + ecomm), and overall category growth—often with ambitions that reach beyond mere performance marketing.
3. Omnichannel Realities and Retail Media Complexity
Timestamps: [12:06]–[13:02]
- Enterprise brands must balance DTC, Amazon, retail partners (Walmart, Target, Amazon, Costco), with each channel having unique pricing, promotional, and competitive dynamics.
- Channel conflicts are real: “If you jump on TikTok shop...Walmart sees that in the wild, where their rollback deal is like, ‘no one ever has a lower price on your product than we have.’ It’s big trouble.” – John Morgenstern [12:18]
4. Measurement at Scale – From Direct Response to MMM
Timestamps: [13:56]–[15:54], [26:22]–[30:07]
- As brands scale, measurement must evolve from pure immediate revenue (the DTC approach) to a mix of brand lift and multi-touch/multi-channel incrementality.
- JMo advocates a blend of marketing mix modeling (MMM), brand lift, and “causal” measurement, referencing partners like House and tools across the spectrum.
- "Mmm will be a necessary evil…but brands need hybrid approaches (sales lift, brand lift, reach, causal MMM, longitudinal tracking etc.), and intuition still matters." – John Morgenstern [15:54]
- CPG marketers must “boil the ocean”—hitting total US household penetration and managing massive unduplicated reach campaigns.
- On common sense in measurement: “We are a common sense AOR of what the math says versus just what common sense and intuitive, reverse engineering from the consumer says. Common sense is undervalued in a lot of these things.” – John Morgenstern [30:07]
5. Creative: Brandformance, Volume, and Diversity
Timestamps: [38:49]–[50:43]
- Vayner pioneered the “volume model” (many diverse assets), well before the platforms pushed it: “Creative is the new targeting.”
- Memorable analogy: TikTok’s feed experimentation teaches that “diversity of style” among creative assets is more important than tiny variations.
- "The volume trap…was like volume of extremely similar things, with little things tweaked. That’s not volume. That’s…window dressing. Not all volumes created equal. It’s that diversity that’s still on strategy [that matters]." – John Morgenstern [44:00]
- Brandformance combines organic validation (what pops on TikTok?) with paid campaigns, moving “wild-card” hits up the creative funnel—from organic, to social ads, to even linear TV.
- Example: Oreo’s creative arsenal includes wild collabs (Pokemon, Stranger Things), “seasonal drops”, and CPG scale—demonstrating “product-led marketing.”
6. DTCs “Crossing the Chasm” & Enterprise Acquisition
Timestamps: [33:54]–[35:53]
- Very few DTCs reach true household penetration alone—most, like Dr. Squatch, are acquired before that point.
- Hims & Hers called out as an exception (public, massive LTV, scale brand marketing across video/CTV).
- “Anyone that can play that long game with discipline versus getting caught in these short-term ROI traps…that’s where you guys in your world are really very impressive to me.” – John Morgenstern [35:53]
- Classic play: DTCs innovate → get acquired by CPG majors for systematized scale.
7. TikTok Shop, Luxury & High-Price Points, & The Affiliate Engine
Timestamps: [60:02]–[66:02]
- TikTok Shop’s model is tough for high AOV or non-discount brands; low-price and trendy win big here.
- “Show me a higher price point brand that didn’t have to sacrifice…without promoting the sh*t out of things or enormous affiliate commission discounts. There’s very few.” – John Morgenstern [60:45]
- DTCs can experiment—test SKUs, consider unique product lines, and measure for “halo” effects onto Amazon or elsewhere.
- “There’s a really high correlation between [TikTok] affiliate volume and Amazon…When we see TikTok halo onto something non-TikTok Shop, Amazon, it’s uniquely strong.” – John Morgenstern [66:21]
8. Platform Battles: Meta, TikTok, Amazon, and The Future of Creator Commerce
Timestamps: [69:37]–[73:41]
- Amazon experimenting with “Buy with Prime” integrations on TikTok/Snapchat/Shopify, but friction persists.
- Meta’s “innovator's dilemma” slows their progress on in-app checkout and the creator economy.
- “Zuck knows what he’s doing…he’s being very intentional about what they do, but it’s been surprising to me they haven’t pushed harder.” – John Morgenstern [69:37]
- YouTube advances dynamic, biddable product placement: “Product placement and host live reads, photorealistic with AI—I love, love product placement.” [73:41]
- 2026 Predictions:
- Back catalog content and programmatic creative integrations will be a bigger deal.
- Meta will probably make new creator economy plays, but YouTube remains the best for creator monetization.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On big brand omnichannel:
“When you’re as big as an Oreo, your limiting factor is the perception of cocoa itself…Because when you’re the category leader you need to grow the category.”
– John Morgenstern [09:33] -
On DTC competitive advantage:
“Fortune 500 land can never be as bold and nimble. And that’s like the competitive advantage that all of you guys have.”
– John Morgenstern [00:33] -
On measurement & MMM:
“MMM will be a necessary evil…but you have to get to something that’s lowest common denominator across the mix. And common sense is undervalued in these things.”
– John Morgenstern [15:54 & 30:07] -
On creative volume vs. diversity:
“The volume trap initially was like volume of extremely similar things with little things tweaked…That’s not volume, that’s…window dressing.”
– John Morgenstern [44:00] -
On TikTok Shop for high price points:
“Show me a higher price point brand that didn’t have to sacrifice there…without promoting the sh*t out of things or doing enormous affiliate commissions—there’s very few.”
– John Morgenstern [60:45] -
On discipline and LTV:
“Anyone that can play that long game with discipline versus getting caught in these short term ROI traps...that’s where you guys...are really impressive to me.”
– John Morgenstern [35:53]
Key Timestamps & Segment Guide
- [00:00]–[07:05] – JMo’s intro, VaynerMedia's scope, lingo of “investment”
- [09:28]–[13:02] – DTC agility vs. enterprise reality; goals of omnichannel
- [13:56]–[15:54] – Measurement evolution: incremental, brand, MMM; advising scale-ups
- [21:27]–[25:28] – DTC vs. CPG: creative, retail priorities, drop/collab models
- [26:22]–[30:07] – Blending data, MMM, and the need for common sense
- [33:54]–[35:53] – DTCs crossing the chasm and being acquired
- [38:49]–[50:43] – Brandformance, creative diversity, validation via organic, workflow
- [60:02]–[66:13] – TikTok Shop, affiliate programs, measuring halo and cross-channel
- [69:37]–[74:50] – Commerce platform wars, Buy With Prime, creator monetization
- [73:41] – Future: Programmatic product placements, YouTube’s innovations
Takeaways for DTC Brands
- Emulate enterprise rigour in measurement as you scale, but never abandon direct-response roots and common sense.
- Hold creative to both volume and strategic diversity—diversify style, not just variations.
- Prepare for the omnichannel traps (retail price parity, channel conflicts) as you start moving off pure DTC rails.
- Find creative ways to blend organic and paid—brandformance creative can be a flywheel for both direct revenue and long-term brand building.
- Don’t ignore TikTok Shop/affiliate, but beware of model fit—not every product or price point will thrive, but measure for halo and leverage for awareness where possible.
- Expect the goalposts to keep moving: As you scale, your KPIs, data, and creative needs will shift—and the best operators blend data, intuition, and strategic risk-taking.
Follow John Morgenstern
- TikTok: @j0nnym0