← Marketing Beyond with Alan B. Hart
Marketing Beyond with Alan B. Hart
14: Bridging the gap between marketers and consumers: Insights from Gayle Troberman, executive advisor at iHeartMedia
00:36:44
Are your ads landing with consumers? According to .1 In today’s episode, Alan chats with Gayle Troberman, executive advisor at iHeartMedia, about the gap between marketers and consumers, ways for marketers to bridge this gap, and...
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- [00:00]
Gail Troberman
Foreign.
- [00:07]
Alan Hart
Are you ready to go beyond the basics of marketing? I'm Alan Hart, and this is Marketing beyond, where we talk about the questions that spark change and share ideas that challenge the status quo. Join us as we explore the future of marketing and its endless potential.
- [00:27]
Gail Troberman
The average marketer may not be as in touch with their consumers the way they think they are, even though we're living in an age where we have more data at our fingertips than ever before. And that's a huge problem. I mean, you're seeing so many brands not growing. And I think part of the problem is that we're very often talking to ourselves, and our ads are reflecting this bubble we live in, and our ads are not reflecting the values, the beliefs, the interests, the passions of the real American consumer. And so we've got to break out of that bubble. And that's a lot of what we. We spent time with this research trying to help marketers do right.
- [01:07]
Host
Today on the show got Gail Troberman. She's the executive advisor at iHeartMedia. In this role, she works with all of the iHeartMedia businesses to help them connect with consumers in a much more deep way. Today on the show, we're going to talk about some research that she does, the new American Consumer, how it came about, what some of the stats and findings, which are phenomenal, and the disconnect between marketers, these coastal beings, if you will, that are maybe disconnected with the everyday consumer and how consumers actually feel ignored by the ads that we actually create and the marketing we create for them. So that and much more with Gail Troberman. Well, Gail, welcome to the show.
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Gail Troberman
Oh, thanks for having me.
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Host
Yeah, I'm excited to have this conversation because it's going to weave and go a lot of different directions, but something about a podcaster is in the middle of it and we're doing a podcast.
- [02:11]
Gail Troberman
I'm sure we'll talk about sound at some point. Audio will find its way into this conversation.
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Host
I love it. I love it. Well, one thing before we get into the business side of things. I hear you are a very good Muppet fan or a very excited Muppet fan.
- [02:26]
Gail Troberman
I am a huge Muppet fan. I have been. I think I was first generation Sesame street. So I was like that perfect age when it started airing and I just got hooked on Muppets. And it's a funny story. My wife and I, a lot, we try to remind ourselves how crazy lucky we are to have the lives we have, the love we have, the friends, the opportunity, the fun things we get to do. And so we created this word, we call it muppalucky. And it basically, it's that idea. We try to say it to each other all the time when we're having a crappy day or things aren't going right. Because muppalucky in. In my definition of this new word I coined is when you realize how lucky you are that you kind of want to bounce up and down like a Muppet. Muppets have a way of evoking joy that we all need to remember. So. So hopefully this will be a lovely Muppa lucky day for us both.
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Host
Yes. Yeah, I hope so. I love that Muppa lucky. Well, tell me about your career path. You were most recently CMO@iheart. You are now in kind of an executive advisor role. But where'd you get your start? And kind of some of the highlights, if you will.
- [03:34]
Gail Troberman
Sure. I majored in tv, radio communications because I was a huge fan of TV and radio. And that was the only thing on the checklist back in the day that seemed to make sense. And then I realized advertising was kind of fun and I loved the psychology of it. And I kind of specialized in that in college. Went out to become a creative and get a creative director job and stuff. And that looked really fun and cool. And at the time, back in the early agency days, you know, when I was graduating in the late 80s, they made you do entry level assistant jobs and so they'd move you around to different departments. And so I ended up getting put in a PR job and, and getting promoted before I ever moved to another team. And so instead of becoming a creative director, I became a PR person. And I think it was the best place in the world to learn the art of communication.
- [04:27]
Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
When you can pay for the space, you can kind of, you know, maybe it's easier, but when you have to convince other people to tell the story or to let you tell the story, it's a different art. And you have to think a lot harder and be a lot more thoughtful. I think about the others and the recipients of stories. So PR was a great place to learn my career. And then I ended up at Microsoft. We had pitched some of their business and not wanted in the PR world, went over there, started in PR and ended up having a series of just incredible jobs with the genius people that were sitting in Redmond. We fought a lot of amazing battles. My last job there, I was a chief creative officer running advertising, running all our agencies. A job I had no right whatsoever to have. But I got to learn from all the best. Like the best. The best people in creative. And you know, it was, it was just an amazing time. And then years later, I met Bob Pittman. And similarly, I didn't know much about audio. I'd done some, but I didn't know much. And I just thought it was, after talking to him, such an underutilized platform and craft and skill set. And so I got really excited again about the creative potential and another job. I didn't know quite what it would be. You can sort of see the thread. Most of my most important job moves or career changes were all about just stumbling towards great, smart people and. And here we are.
- [05:53]
Host
I love that. I love that. Well, you spent, I think over 10 years as CMO. And you know, if you look at any of the news, tenure is a big thing.
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Gail Troberman
Tenure? Yeah. No one. Yeah.
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Alan Hart
What's your secret?
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Gail Troberman
What's my secret? You know, I think most, most things that matter in life are endurance sports, right? They're going to be good days and bad and, you know, you're going to win and lose some battles internally and extern the. With the consumers. But, you know, for me, you know, it's interesting. We just did a panel here at the Marketing hall of Fame and we were talking about, like, brands and enduring stories. And I think, you know, one of the things, it's, it's career advice and it's, it's brand advice. Like, you have to, you have to realize that, like, things don't happen overnight and, you know, you're not going to change the world and you're not going to change the company and you're not going to change the brand and the trajectory in a minute. And I, and I think we've all gotten, as life is sped up and technology is sped up, life, we've all gotten enamored of this immediacy and then the adaptability and showing up differently in these different places. And for me, I like big, hard problems. Getting marketers to get over their visual bias and really get serious about the power of audio is not easy. And that's the battle I've been fighting for 10 years, and we've made a ton of strides. I think you're seeing audio really have a renaissance again. I think podcasts made it a little top of mind, but I think people are realizing the reach and the mass reach potential of broadcast radio. And I mean, audio is the most versatile and flexible thing. So creatively, it just doesn't get old helping. What I get to do at iHeart is I get to help other people. Build their brands using our platform. So it's kind of fun. It's not just marketing iHeart, it's marketing iHeart to the marketing community. And so that's just been an incredible ride. And I think we're just seeing more and more brilliant work crossing the airwaves as audio creative still room to go. There's still a lot of crappy creative out there. My work isn't quite done.
- [08:07]
Host
No, not done yet, but. Well, you talk about your career and spending time at Microsoft and IPG and iHeart, you've seen a lot of change over that, especially as a marketer. Is there any enduring truths, if you will, of, like, what's still relevant today?
- [08:27]
Gail Troberman
Oh, sure. You know, I mean, the technology change, the buzzwords change, right. But, you know, I'm, you know, I'm sitting on panels now and, you know, you can take out the word AI and insert the word digital or Internet.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
You know, every time a new technology comes along or podcasting.
- [08:44]
Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
Every time a new platform emerges, marketers think it's like the world has to change and it really doesn't.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
If you, if you, if you know who your brand is and you know where you want to go find growth, then it's about telling good stories. It's about being relevant to those consumers. I think, you know, we, I think we've gotten so enamored. You know, we talk a lot about this at iHeart. I think in the digital era, the biggest challenge that we face is that we somehow, because we started getting more data and being able to target more, that we started thinking the target was the only target.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
And I think we stopped talking to too many people.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
The bullseye might be your target audience. Right. And we love our target audience. We spend all this time obsessing about those archetypes and the greedy striver who loves this and that and only does these things, and the Gen Z er who loves adventure. And we put all these dimensions around the bullseye and then we forget, like, if you're a master reach brand in America or you want to be the biggest brand in your category, you have to talk to a lot of people to grow. And if you just win the bullseye, you're not going to win. So I think we're in this world where we're. In a lot of ways, we're letting technology get in the way of growth. And, you know, I think there's room for mass reach, big ideas that are universal. We're talking about, you know, listing the ingredients of the big Mac Right. We can all still do that is powerful marketing. And it didn't matter if you were a teen or a senior, you could list the ingredients of the Big Mac and it was in your head. And when lunchtime came around, there's a good chance you might go buy one. And so I think we sometimes let new innovation get in the way of growth.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
Or we get so enamored of the technology or the opportunity that we forget any of these platforms, any of these new tools, whether it's AI or targeting. They're only as good as the stories we put out there. And sometimes our growth is going to be everywhere, not just like at the bullseye.
- [10:59]
Host
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and to your point, if you want to grow, you want to grow your brand, you've got appeal to more people. And a lot of people are not buying you every day either.
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Gail Troberman
Oh, I know. That is. It's so true.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
I think I saw a stat once on something like, I think in like a beverage category or carbonated beverages. I think a casual consumer of like a cola buys two a year.
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Co-Host
Right, right, right.
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Gail Troberman
So there's the person who drinks a ton of your product and you're probably overspending on them and they're buying it and they love it and they drink several a day. And then there's this casual consumer, but you don't know when those two. So how can you be in my consideration set?
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Co-Host
Right, Right.
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Gail Troberman
It's funny, Bob Pittman, my boss, always says he like goes out to dinner most nights and his assistant will be like, where, where do you want to go tonight? You're having dinner with so and so. And he'll always be like, I have the same two restauran.
- [11:53]
Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
So if you're a restaurant and you can get in my head, you're going to expand that consideration set exponentially.
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Co-Host
Right, right.
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Gail Troberman
And that's where creating memory structures is so important. I think marketers are not thinking as hard as they should about neuroscience and brain science and memory structures. And that all sounds very futuristic, but it's really as simple as the jingles we all remember. Two all beef patty, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions, and a sesame seed bun. I don't know the last time that ad Ra or when I heard it, but I still, when he mentioned it, I think.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
And that's when that's in your consideration set.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
You've gotta get into my memory and you've gotta get in. In a way that you encode that and you file it.
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Co-Host
Right, right.
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Gail Troberman
And Audio is so much better at that when you look at neuro studies, because by, you know, we were just saying earlier, what'd you have for breakfast?
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Co-Host
Right, Right.
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Gail Troberman
If I showed you breakfast in a video spot. Right. I'd be wrong.
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Host
Right?
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
There's very big chance, a big margin of error if I show you, you know, a healthy thing, you had an unhealthy thing, I show you eggs, you had fruit, whatever.
- [13:01]
Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
But if I say, hey, Alan, what'd.
- [13:04]
Host
You have for breakfast and me a sandwich.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
But you just. More brain cells fire. It's the power of audio, and I don't think people use it well enough. Like, the power of audio is ask me a question, and every listener across America is picturing their breakfast. Now, if you want to tell me, was it healthy or not, was it too expensive, was it on the run? Blah, blah, whatever you want to sell me, you can reach me.
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Co-Host
Right?
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Gail Troberman
Because. And I will remember it longer because I'm using more neurons, because I'm picturing it myself, like, the brain is the best production machine out there. And I just don't think we use audio the right way to just ask questions sometimes.
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Host
No, I love that. I love that. Well, I know one of the areas that you're going to stay close to in this new kind of evolved role is your new American consumer research. And you've done a couple of studies, but I want to know how it came about. Where did you.
- [14:00]
Gail Troberman
Oh, it's a great story. We were doing an event at our offices for Marketers and Times. We'll bring out some of the more interesting podcasters and let them have a conversation with brands and talk about podcasting and advertising. And Malcolm Gladwell is one of our most genius podcasters with the Pushkin team at iHeart. And he was speaking that night at our event, and we were sitting around for the event, and we were talking, and he's like, you're the cmo. And he's like. He's like, can you just answer one question for me? I know my listeners. Why don't the brands want to just jump on the phone, have a quick conversation, and then let me talk about their stuff to my listeners in a way my listeners will find interesting.
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Co-Host
Right?
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Gail Troberman
And I was like, could it be that simple? And Malcolm, being way smarter than I will ever be, he started hypothesizing on where it breaks down. And one of his theories was that marketers live in this world that's very east coast elite. We live in a bubble. We live in a world that isn't necessarily the same as the people we're trying to talk to. And he had this brilliant idea of what if we actually pointed that out, like, what is the gap between what marketers think and what real American consumers think? And so that was the impetus of the study. We've done two waves of the research. We, I think, sort of turned it into an annual thing. And the memorable facts from it are that get marketers attention are simple, simple things. Like the first study, we learned that half of Americans have never heard of an Aperol Sprint insert. GASPS Right. How is that possible?
- [15:42]
Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
You know, zero percent of marketers have never heard of an Aperol Spritz. And it goes on and on. You know, what do people find cool and cringy? You know, marketers think pickleball is the coolest thing on the planet. Real people find it kind of cringy. They love hunting and fishing. Real people love lottery tickets. I mean, a dollar and a dream. Right. Marketers think they're cringy. I'm not sure why I don't get that one. But, you know, and we went deeper into values and a lot of more meaningful things that really, they start reflecting that the, the, the average marketer may not be as in touch with their consumers the way they think they are. Even though we're living in an age where we have more data at our fingertips than ever before. And that's a huge problem. I mean, you're seeing so many brands not growing. And I think part of the problem is that we're very often talking to ourselves and our ads are reflecting this bubble we live in, and our ads are not reflecting the values, the beliefs, the interests, the passions of the real American consumer. And so we've got to break out of that bubble. And that's a lot of what we. We spent time with this research trying to help marketers do.
- [16:51]
Host
Right. Well, and I think, I don't want to call anyone out, but there's been some high profile brands that have done exactly that and kind of like missed the mark with their totally.
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Gail Troberman
Yeah, there've been a lot of fiascos in marketing. And, you know, we do live in a cancel culture world where, you know, when you miss people notice.
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Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
You know, one of the sort of depressing stats from the last wave of this new American consumer research was 44% of American consumers feel ignored by media and brands. 44%. Almost half of our potential customers don't even think we see them.
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Co-Host
Right, right.
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Gail Troberman
And you know, it's funny, when I was prepping for to present this research with Malcolm. The first time we rolled it out, I was sitting in a hotel room in New York and the TV was on in the background without the sound. And I saw three ads that all had pickleball in them. And I was like, there it is. That is the problem. We think it's cool and new and next.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
I mean, look at NFTs. When we did this research was the height of NFT marketing.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
And two thirds of consumers had never heard of an nft. But how much time and energy did we waste trying to be first and cool and new and next and completely missing the mark and throwing a lot of money away on NFTs?
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Host
Well, with so many people feeling ignored, like, what do you feel like marketers should be doing to make sure that they are connecting in the right way?
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Gail Troberman
Sure. I mean, I think it's getting in touch with real people getting out of LA and New York. You know, I happen to live most of the year in some real towns in America and Utah and Rhode island and Whidbey island, and, you know, I spend a lot of time outside New York and la, which I think really helps. Just stay in touch. And then you've got to ask the right questions and you've got to go to places that make you feel uncomfortable. I think a lot of times, you know, it's the bane of my existence. You know, I'll explain. Like, the massive reach of broadcast radio today.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
Nine out of ten consumers are listening to broadcast radio. Nielsen data. It's not my data. Not spinning it. Every month, nine out of 10Americans are listening to broadcast radio.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
And we know it. We see it. Ryan Seacrest or Elvis Duran Charlemagne. They're on air right now while we're talking, talking to 10, 12 million Americans live and unscripted for four hours. And that's why people are listening, because it's humans talking live and unscripted to me. And they're there whenever I have that time or I need human connection. And marketers just don't believe that that's the amazing opportunity it is.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
We have a conversation about live media and people go, oh, yeah, we gotta be in sports. All right, great. You might also want to try broadcast radio.
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Co-Host
Right, Right.
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Gail Troberman
Or, you know, people, like I said, marketers are so attached to our visuals. We agonize about our logo and the transparentness and, you know, how the translucent the bubbles are and how the logo spins and that, you know, that. That end of that spot. But we're missing a huge opportunity with audio and it's cheaper and it's faster and it's more efficient and it has massive reach. And so I think that's just like one of those huge opportunities if you want to get back in touch with real Americans. Start doing radio and start doing local radio.
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Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
Think about what you want to say to people in Boston vs. Louisville, Miami vs. Portland, Maine, and show up. Think about showing up in communities, because people live in real community. And if you can show up and be part of their world and part of their life and acknowledge you're showing up there, you're in their place, their town, you share some values, you can make people, whatever, laugh or inform them or educate them, whatever you want to do, but do it in their language, on their terms. Huge opportunity. And I think you'll be shocked by how powerful it is versus that hyper produced thing that we all get so excited about our spot. You know, there's just other ways to show up in real people's lives. And I think they'll feel seen and feel heard.
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Host
Yeah, well, I mean, you've got a zealot in audio. I'm a podcaster.
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Gail Troberman
Yes.
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Host
Yeah, I believe in the platform.
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Gail Troberman
Yeah. I mean, watch it. Podcasting is the fastest growing medium I think, in the history of media. And it is the least scripted.
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Host
It's very intimate. I mean, you're literally in their ears usually.
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Gail Troberman
And now everyone wants to turn audio podcasts. I think a lot of the reason people love them is because you can multitask, right? You can go for a run and listen to a podcast, you can walk the dog and listen to a podcast. You can drive to pick up the kids from school and listen to a podcast or a radio show. That's part of why people love it. They pop in and out of audio all day long. Is it fun, fits into your life. And now I think there's this push, particularly by marketers, less by podcasters, to turn it into video.
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Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
We like video. I know, but I think the reason people are loving podcasting is the power of that audio. And, you know, when you put a camera in front of somebody, this conversation gets less.
- [22:03]
Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
It gets less real and we get a little more self conscious. And, you know, so I think as we evolve, you know, podcasts into video, you have to think about when, where, and why. But, but first and foremost, I think that live, unscripted human conversation, we're all craving it. We're kind of lonely.
- [22:19]
Host
No, I agree, I agree. Well, one of the things in the, in the report, I think it may be the most recent one, but maybe I've got that wrong, is this notion of influencers. And we think about influencers, but we don't think of. And marketers, I think, think about influencers very, very differently than who really influences.
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Gail Troberman
I mean, think about it, right? Most of us like who really influences the purchase decisions that you make. Real people are twice as likely to be influenced by their family and friends.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
And then by their religious community, their church groups, like, things like that. Marketers are three times as likely to be influenced by fear and fame and twice as likely to be influenced by fortune.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
And so you see that reflected back. How many scary pharma ads are, you know, worrying us about things that, you know, things that we didn't know existed and we probably will never have. And.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
And yet there's this huge opportunity to help become, like I said, part of that community.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
And one of the most powerful influences, if you're a parent in your life, is what your kids think.
- [23:29]
Co-Host
Oh, yeah, right.
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Gail Troberman
But nobody's trying to start that conversation, right? You go to the appliance store to buy a refrigerator, your kids are going to have an opinion about that.
- [23:38]
Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
Your kids are going to be like, dad, those jeans are so 10 years ago. Right. Like the people who influence your choice. And you see it reflected back. You drive down a street in the burbs, you're going to see a lot of the same cars, right. People wearing the same shoes. So breaking into that bubble, someone else's bubble, how do you do that? Well, how do you do local? How do you become part of a community as a brand? And I think if you unlock that, you'll start seeing incredible growth and incredible loyalty. You know, in that study we also saw around influence. 75% of people are willing to pay more, pay more in this economy for a brand that shares their values. And my values are about my community, my kids, my church group.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
My sports team, my.
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Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
The things I really care about. And so thinking, getting out of our bubble, we've got to stop talking to ourselves because if you just win the marketer bullseye, you're just not going to find enough growth.
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Co-Host
Right?
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Gail Troberman
So how can you just get out into the real world and real Americans and start understanding their values?
- [24:47]
Host
I love it. I love it. Well, one other area I want to ask you about is this notion of targeted ads or AI generated, whatever topic.
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Gail Troberman
Of the week, year, month, and how do we.
- [25:01]
Host
It seems like it seems there's a creepy factor to it for people. How do we think about that? And how do we think about, we need some of the efficiencies that we gain from those things, but how do we think about doing it the right way?
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Co-Host
Yeah.
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Gail Troberman
I mean, as consumers, right? Put on your consumer hat. Haven't we all been creeped out by some ad that's followed us around? And you're like, what we say a friend of mine showed up and hadn't told people she was pregnant and showed up at a dinner party at my house with a, an organic non alcoholic hemp gin. Right. And I will never buy that. I will never drink that. And yet I for months was getting ads for this hemp gin.
- [25:43]
Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
It was complete waste of that brand's money.
- [25:46]
Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
Because they had some data point, I guess, about my phone or her phone or, you know, I don't even know.
- [25:51]
Co-Host
Right.
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Gail Troberman
Exactly how that happened, but I know it was related and it was creepy. And so, you know, I say this to marketers all the time. I'm like, you know, it's great to use data. I mean, be smart, see what works, measure, optimize. AI is an incredible tool, right. To use it to version.
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Co-Host
Right.
- [26:10]
Gail Troberman
We use it at iHeart. So, you know, a lot of our talent don't have to waste time, you know, repeating. Listen to On Air with Ryan SeaCrest at Kiss FM, Boston, Kiss, FNLA, et cetera. There's lots of efficient ways. Taking your video and cutting into a lot of different sizes and shapes, taking things cross points, platform.
- [26:27]
Co-Host
Right.
- [26:27]
Gail Troberman
Turning audio into video or vice versa, adapting it for different platform media contexts. Right. Is your spot running in the morning, in the evening, on a hip hop station, it should sound like hip hop. On a pop station, it should sound like pop, right? There's a million amazing uses for this AI tool, but I think if, if we let it go unleashed, like I tell people all the time, like, don't just look at your ad in isolation. Have people show you what it's going to look like when it shows up, up on my phone or in my feed or.
- [26:58]
Co-Host
Right.
- [26:58]
Gail Troberman
Like look at the context and go, ooh, I wouldn't say that that way if I were in your feed.
- [27:04]
Host
Right, right.
- [27:05]
Gail Troberman
That's mine. You know, I didn't invite you into this little personal space with me and my friends. Right. So maybe you take a different tone there. And so, you know, I think it's, it's, it's thinking about AI as a tool, not the tool.
- [27:20]
Host
Right, right, right.
- [27:20]
Gail Troberman
And then really being responsible as a human, I think marketers have to take responsibility for the messages we put out there. And as marketing's gotten so fragmented, I mean, how many messages are you putting out there? Maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe it is too many. If you don't have time to actually listen to them all or watch them all, or put them all up in one room and decide which ones really deserve to see the light of day, I think we might all do a little bit, a little less, a little more responsibly and would get a little better result.
- [27:54]
Host
Yeah, no, that's good advice. Very good advice. Well, one of the things I like to do is get to know you a little bit better. And so I've got a series of questions I ask everybody that comes on the show, but curious if there's been an experience of your past that defines or makes up who you are today.
- [28:11]
Gail Troberman
Yeah, I think we were talking about it in sort of the career growth and kind of stumbling towards amazing humans. So, you know, in my career and in my life, I've always just followed humans.
- [28:28]
Co-Host
Right.
- [28:29]
Gail Troberman
You meet an amazing human, you stay in touch. I don't know if we're going to do business together, if it's ever going to matter, but for me, it's this human first, work second, outcome second. And, you know, I sort of grew up with that as a huge principle, you know, of getting to know people and then finding your way to amazing, great outcomes. And that served me really well in life and in work.
- [28:55]
Host
Yeah, I have younger professionals ask me all the time, it relates to what you said, how do you build your network? And I said, well, it starts one person at a time.
- [29:05]
Gail Troberman
Exactly. It's like, hey, let's have a drink, you know, let's go get a coffee. And you know, and I think sometimes, like, I think, you know, and I feel for, I think the generation trying to network with all the tools they have at their disposal. We didn't have a lot, you know, we were the generation, you know, our parents sent us out with like 25 cents and a key and be home at 5 and, you know, and where you went and what you did. Now we have so much, I think this imposter syndrome and people trying to like, prove their value versus, like just enjoying. Had the luxury of so many amazing people in this industry. I've gotten to meet and work with and work around. But all the best, most memorable, I think, insightful moments, those, those didn't happen at like the table in the formal conversation.
- [29:53]
Co-Host
Right.
- [29:53]
Gail Troberman
They happened in transit, in between things. And. And when you open yourself up and you stop trying to Network and you start actually looking people in the eye and having a conversation. And also, you know, I think the, the best ideas, particularly for marketers, the best ideas are going to come from your barista or your hairstylist or the person behind you in the grocery line, or they're not necessarily going to come from the most deceived marketer that you go see on a panel and then you wait in line to go ask one question of.
- [30:24]
Co-Host
Right.
- [30:25]
Gail Troberman
You're probably not going to get genius there, but there's genius out there everywhere if you just talk to humans. So that's always been advice I follow.
- [30:32]
Host
That's good advice. Well, if you're starting this all over again, what advice would you give your younger self?
- [30:40]
Gail Troberman
What advice would I give my younger self? I think probably a little more patience and empathy. Good. Matt. In my career at Microsoft, and it was amazing. I mean, everyone was so smart and so passionate about everything. And so it was a very, it was a very aggressive culture. It was a fast paced culture and you had to think fast and move fast and defend your ideas. And I think I've learned as I've gotten a little older and I've had a little more experience in the world and I think sometimes we have to, you know, it's not always going to be the best defended idea and we don't have to attack everything. And sometimes I think, you know, we just need to show up, whether it's in work and life, with, with more empathy and a little more time. Yeah, you know, it's something I'm still wrestling with, which is just how to pause, which is, you know, letting ideas happen, letting other people have some base to figure it out. Time, you know, maybe even, you know, I hate the phrase making space. I think we need to make time. I think we're not making enough time for, for the work, for the humans. And that's where the most fun happens and the most creativity happens, is when we make a little more time and things can bubble up.
- [31:53]
Host
Lovely. Well, is there anything like you think people marketers should be learning more about or maybe something that you're trying to learn more about yourself right now?
- [32:01]
Gail Troberman
Yeah, sure. You know, I think, I mean, we talked about AI and I think how to, I think AI is just, you know, sort of maybe the tip of the spear of, you know, new and next. But I think how to balance the new stuff with the classics. You know, the classics have been around for a reason. The big platforms, the mass media, and it's, it's not an either or, but I think I really, you know, and obviously I'm biased. So all of my bias too, as I talk about marketer biases, you know, I think broadcast radio is an insanely undervalued place in a time where we're all under insane budget pressure. It's a place where you can go talk to new people and find new growth and it can be, you know, a tenth the cost, a tenth the time. So, you know, that's always one huge piece of advice. If you haven't tested audio all up, but particularly broadcast radio, just go do it. Try a few markets. I bet you will see, you will learn some really interesting things and I think you'll start finding some new consumers and some new ways of connecting.
- [33:05]
Host
I love it. Are there any trends or subcultures or anything out there in the world that you're just like curious about right now?
- [33:13]
Gail Troberman
Oh, interesting. I love all the, you know, the trends and sort of following them. You know, what's old is new. One of the things I thought was fascinating in social that was popping up was this, you know, sort of young people using the term propaganda and pushing back against what they think is propaganda. And I love it. I mean I love seeing people taking a strong position whether it's for or against things. But I love, and you know, there's silly things and you know, it's yoga pants to political topics. But you know, I, I love sort of the, the trends of the day and I think those are the huge opportunities, right, to take. What's. Why is that happening? Why are, why are young people feeling like things are propaganda? Maybe because we're pushing out too many messages that are irrelevant or too many ideas that aren't resonating with them. So again, it takes me back to maybe a little less, a little more responsibly with a little more patience.
- [34:09]
Host
Okay, I love it. Well, last question for you. What do you think is the largest opportunity or threat facing marketers today?
- [34:17]
Gail Troberman
You know, I think one of the biggest challenges for marketers today is the speed of marketing. I mean things have sped up. So many companies live quarter to quarter results overall else. And so I think we've created a lot of defense mechanisms. I like to call them FPIs, like fake performance indicators.
- [34:36]
Co-Host
Right.
- [34:36]
Gail Troberman
Because we need something to show the CFO to show the impact of what we do. And I think we've got to get back to the ability to measure immediate outcomes. But real ones, sales growth, real immediate outcomes and then long term the value of consumer engagement, loyalty, brand building.
- [34:56]
Co-Host
Right.
- [34:56]
Gail Troberman
The things that are, if I can get you into our fold. You're going to buy. You're going to buy not just two sodas a year, you're going to buy two sodas a month. And I can increase that frequency with which you buy because I'm in your life and I'm in your community and I'm in your head. So I think we've got to admit, like a lot of these KPIs and these things we're chasing with this huge immediacy aren't real, right? We've got these amazing KPIs. Look at this is up, this is up, this is up, this is up. Oh no. That was the worst quarter we've had in ages.
- [35:27]
Co-Host
Right?
- [35:27]
Gail Troberman
And so, you know, I think we've got to, again, get back to the ability to measure near term and long term outcomes. A little, a little better.
- [35:34]
Host
I love it. Well, Gail, thank you for coming on the show today. I appreciate it.
- [35:38]
Gail Troberman
Awesome. It was fun.
- [35:42]
Alan Hart
The views, thoughts and opinions expressed are the speaker's own and do not represent the views, thoughts and opinions of Deloitte. Material and information presented here is for general information purposes only and does not imply endorsement or opposition to any specific company, product or service. Hi, it's Alan again. Marketing beyond is a Deloitte digital podcast. It's created and produced by me with post production support from Sam Robertson. If you're new to Marketing beyond, please feel free to write us a review and subscribe on your favorite listening platform platform. I also invite you to explore the other Deloitte Digital podcast@deloittigital.com US Podcast and Share the show with your friends and colleagues. I love hearing from listeners. You can contact me at marketingbeyondeloitte.com you'll also find complete show notes and links to what's discussed in the podcast today and you can search our archives. I'm Alan Hart and this is Marketing Beyond.