444: Marketing Trends, Gender Diversity, and Leadership in Finance with Sue Hermann, CMO at BOK Financial

Summary

Podcast Summary: Episode 444 - Marketing Trends, Gender Diversity, and Leadership in Finance with Sue Hermann, CMO at BOK Financial

Introduction

In Episode 444 of Marketing Today with Alan Hart, host Alan Hart engages in an insightful conversation with Sue Hermann, the Senior Vice President and Chief Marketing Officer at BOK Financial. Released on November 6, 2024, this episode delves into Sue's journey to becoming a CMO, the current marketing landscape in the banking sector, gender diversity in finance, balancing career with parenthood, and essential leadership qualities in fostering effective team environments.

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1. Sue Hermann’s Career Path

Sue Hermann's path to becoming the CMO at BOK Financial was anything but conventional. Growing up in St. Louis, Sue initially aspired to be a coroner, inspired by the television show Quincy. However, disinterest in aspects like blood and fear of seasickness led her to pivot towards a different career.

“Instead of coroner school or if they have that, I switched to my site to the renowned University of Missouri journalism school, which led me to a career in PR.” [03:52]

Her expertise in public relations and corporate communications over the years positioned her uniquely to take on the CMO role, especially after her previous company was acquired. Despite initial hesitations and feelings of imposter syndrome, Sue embraced the opportunity with encouragement reminiscent of Sheryl Sandberg’s Lean In philosophy.

“Like a lot of women, I wasn't sure if I was ready. It was a big step up... lean in already, woman. And so I said, yes.” [05:21]

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2. The Current State of Marketing in Banking

Sue discusses the lingering effects of the 2008 financial crisis on the banking industry's marketing efforts. Trust remains a significant hurdle, but BOK Financial has taken proactive steps to rebuild and enhance public confidence.

“Our CEO was very passionate about the industry... we pivot and lean really hard into content and developing our own publishing platform so that we could focus on delivering insight and advice rather than talking about product.” [08:08]

By shifting focus from product-centric messaging to providing valuable insights and advice, BOK Financial aims to strengthen relationships with clients and position itself as a trusted advisor.

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3. Gender Diversity in Finance

Addressing gender diversity, Sue reflects on the progress made since the 1990s when restrictive dress codes were the norm. Today, women constitute about 60% of employees in financial services, though representation in leadership roles remains disproportionate.

“It's estimated that women will control approximately 2/3 of the household wealth in the US by 2030. But only half of women compared to 2/3 of men feel confident managing their investments.” [12:57]

She emphasizes the importance of women in strategic roles to effectively serve the evolving needs of a diverse client base, especially in the context of the upcoming wealth transfer.

“If we don't figure out how to serve the needs of both partners, of both spouses... we will lose that business when that transition occurs.” [13:00]

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4. Balancing Career and Parenthood

Sue candidly shares her struggles with balancing a high-powered career and motherhood. Early in her career, she often prioritized work over family commitments, leading to feelings of guilt. Over time, this experience fostered empathy and a more holistic approach to leadership.

“Work is incredibly personal and so work-life balance really is a work-life blend for me and I try to make it in my interactions with my teams.” [19:41]

By connecting with her team on a personal level and encouraging discussions about family and hobbies, Sue believes in creating an environment where employees feel valued beyond their professional roles.

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5. Leadership Insights

Leadership, for Sue, revolves around human connection and gratitude. She highlights the impact of her CEO's handwritten notes, which foster a culture of appreciation and recognition within the company.

“Expressing gratitude in that very human and concrete way is so meaningful to your team.” [22:20]

Additionally, Sue underscores the importance of openly acknowledging personal commitments, such as family appointments, to normalize work-life integration and reduce stigma around taking necessary personal time.

“We intentionally create space for humanness.” [22:42]

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6. Personal Stories and Experiences

Sue opens up about a pivotal moment when her father passed away unexpectedly in her 30s. This experience instilled in her the importance of cherishing every moment and living authentically.

“Tomorrow isn't guaranteed. So you got to make the most out of every day.” [27:01]

Her advice to her younger self is straightforward: “Be more brave. Stop talking yourself out of whatever it is and just go for it.” [27:52]

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7. Future Trends and AI in Marketing

Looking ahead, Sue identifies Artificial Intelligence (AI) as a double-edged sword in marketing. While AI offers tools for personalization and efficiency, it also poses risks related to authenticity and human connection.

“How can we use it to make our work better and to better deliver marketing and our product in a more personalized and relevant way to our audiences. But also how to make sure that the ugly side isn't creating more disbelief or disconnectedness in our society as a whole.” [28:09]

She advocates for maintaining human creativity and oversight to ensure that AI serves as an enhancer rather than a replacer of human ingenuity.

“The copy I've seen written by AI, it still sounds like your intern wrote it.” [29:33]

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8. Understanding Gen Z and Future Opportunities

Sue emphasizes the importance of understanding Generation Z, who are digital natives shaped by the COVID-19 pandemic. Their expectations for personalization and relevance challenge companies to innovate continuously.

“Gen Z... expect it. And I think it's going to be harder than we think right now.” [29:58]

She stresses that meeting the unique needs of Gen Z is crucial for capturing the substantial wealth transfer anticipated in the coming decade.

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9. Largest Opportunities and Threats for Marketers

Concluding the discussion, Sue identifies the overwhelming noise in the marketplace as the biggest threat to effective marketing. The saturation of content makes it challenging to create meaningful connections and demonstrate value to audiences.

“There's not a lot of time or space to create engagement with your audiences... we need to figure out how do we tune that down so people can have that opportunity to focus and connect and make those decisions.” [31:29]

On the flip side, this challenges marketers to innovate and find ways to stand out by delivering genuine value and fostering trust.

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Conclusion

Episode 444 of Marketing Today with Alan Hart offers a comprehensive exploration of Sue Hermann's leadership journey, the nuances of marketing in the financial sector, and the imperative of gender diversity and empathy in the workplace. Sue's insights into balancing personal and professional life, leveraging AI responsibly, and understanding emerging generations provide valuable takeaways for marketers aiming to navigate the complex and evolving landscape of today's market.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• “I switched to my site to the renowned University of Missouri journalism school, which led me to a career in PR.” — Sue Herman [03:52]

• “Like a lot of women, I wasn't sure if I was ready. It was a big step up... lean in already, woman. And so I said, yes.” — Sue Herman [05:21]

• “Our CEO was very passionate about the industry... we pivot and lean really hard into content and developing our own publishing platform so that we could focus on delivering insight and advice rather than talking about product.” — Sue Herman [08:08]

• “If we don't figure out how to serve the needs of both partners, of both spouses... we will lose that business when that transition occurs.” — Sue Herman [13:00]

• “Work is incredibly personal and so work-life balance really is a work-life blend for me and I try to make it in my interactions with my teams.” — Sue Herman [19:41]

• “Expressing gratitude in that very human and concrete way is so meaningful to your team.” — Sue Herman [22:20]

• “Tomorrow isn't guaranteed. So you got to make the most out of every day.” — Sue Herman [27:01]

• “How can we use it to make our work better and to better deliver marketing and our product in a more personalized and relevant way to our audiences. But also how to make sure that the ugly side isn't creating more disbelief or disconnectedness in our society as a whole.” — Sue Herman [28:09]

• “The copy I've seen written by AI, it still sounds like your intern wrote it.” — Sue Herman [29:33]

• “There's not a lot of time or space to create engagement with your audiences... we need to figure out how do we tune that down so people can have that opportunity to focus and connect and make those decisions.” — Sue Herman [31:29]

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This episode serves as an invaluable resource for marketers and business leaders seeking to understand the intersection of marketing strategies, diversity, leadership, and the evolving financial landscape.

Transcript

[Sue Herman]

My dad works in B2B marketing. He came by my school for career day and said he was a big roas man. Then he told everyone how much he loved calculating his return on ad spend. My friends still laugh at me to this day.

[Ryan Reynolds]

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[Sue Herman]

Half of it right.

[Alan Hart]

One of the things we want to do is create ads that don't suck.

[Ryan Reynolds]

Embracing change creates great possibility.

[Alan Hart]

I'm Alan Hart, and this is Marketing Today. Today on the show, I've got Sue Herman. She's a senior Vice president and Chief marketing officer at BOK Financial. BOK Financial Corporation is a $50 billion regional financial services company headquartered in Tulsa, Oklahoma, with over 106 billion in assets under management. On the show today, we talk about her path to becoming cmo. At BOK Financial, we talk about the current state of marketing in banking, gender diversity in finance, balancing career, parenthood, or motherhood, and what it means that leaders need to do to recognize about their teams to help foster the right environments and cultures. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Sue Herman. Well, sue, welcome to the show.

[Sue Herman]

Thank you, Alan. Thank you for having me.

[Alan Hart]

Yeah, no, I'm looking forward to this. And we'll talk a lot about BOK Financial. But before we do that, I have to say I think I need to welcome you to the land of the living versus where you thought you were going to end up in a career. And I'll let you explain what we're talking about, but this is a first for me.

[Sue Herman]

Fair enough. Growing up in St. Louis, I did not aspire to being a CMO. I wanted to be a coroner, mostly because of the television show Quincy, starring the late Jack Klugman. The show made the whole thing look pretty glamorous. He lived on a sailboat. He had a brilliant assistant who seemed to do a lot of the work, and he solved murders of people who are usually still pretty tidy and attractive, even in depth. Much alike.

[Alan Hart]

Exactly. It sounds like if you love puzzles and maybe attractive people, it would be a great gig. Until you realize that it's not any of those things.

[Sue Herman]

It's none of those things. I get a little queasy around blood, and I also get seasick. So it rules out the profession and the sailboat lifestyle. What's a gal to do?

[Alan Hart]

Wow. Wow. You struck out on all accounts in that regard. That's hilarious. Let's talk about where did you get your real career start? And you are now the senior vice president and CMO at BOK Financial. So, like, how did you make your way there?

[Sue Herman]

Yes. So instead of coroner school or if they have that, I switched to my site to the renowned University of Missouri journalism school, which led me to a career in pr. And so I've spent most of my career on the PR or the corporate communications side of the house. And historically, that side of the house was often very separate from the marketing side. I've worked in a few different industries, but kept coming back to financial services. Honestly, there's a straightforwardness that appeals to me. Most of us can relate to needing a loan to buy a car or saving up to send your kids to college. And banks tend to be pretty good corporate citizens in terms of community support, and that's always been important to me. So I came to BOKF by way of an acquisition. The company where I was working was acquired and was given the opportunity to lead the corporate communications team. And then I was approached about the CMO opportunity. And I'll be honest, I was really pretty reticent. Like a lot of women, I wasn't sure if I was ready. It was a big step up. But my current boss is a very good salesperson. And I think I went to sleep hearing an exasperated Sheryl Sandberg whisper in my ear, lean in already, woman. And so I said, yes.

[Alan Hart]

That's amazing. That's amazing. And it's always, I talk to a lot of CMOs and this notion of. And maybe, now that I think about it, probably over 60% are women. I do hear a lot of. Some people call it imposter syndrome. Some people say, I'm not sure about myself. So you're definitely not alone in that regard. I hear It Quite a bit.

[Sue Herman]

Yeah. I think we're really good. And not just women, but I think a lot of professionals. We're so good at promoting others and encouraging others. And when it comes to ourselves, we're often our worst enemy.

[Alan Hart]

Yes, yes. No, I would tend to agree with you. Tell us a little bit more about BOK Financial, like scope of the business, what it looks like, all that kind of stuff.

[Sue Herman]

Sure. So BOK Financial is a top 25 US bank. We're headquartered in Tulsa, Oklahoma. We have about 50 billion in assets and a wealth division with 107 billion in assets under management and administration. So we're very Midwestern. Our operations are focused in the Midwest, in the Southwest, I office out of Denver, but we serve clients nationwide. And we're probably a brand name that a lot of folks haven't heard of, but we have a lot of different names and divisions under our umbrella. Where? Bank of Oklahoma in Oklahoma or bank of Texas in. In that great state, we have financial private wealth and our offerings are really diverse. So in addition to commercial and corporate and consumer banking, we offer brokerage trading, investment services, mortgage origination and servicing, and one of the top 10 electronic funds transfer networks in the nation. So again, I don't know that we're not a household name certainly, but in the areas that we serve, hopefully we are. Our brands are really well known and even more importantly, our people are really well known.

[Alan Hart]

Yeah, no, that sounds great. And that's a sizable wealth business that you have too. 107 billion in assets under management.

[Sue Herman]

Absolutely. And it's a very diverse part of the company. Obviously we serve individuals and families, generations of families. But we have a huge institutional side, we have mineral management side. So it from being at this company for this long, I still feel like every day I say the words we do that. It's a fun place to be.

[Alan Hart]

That's awesome. That's awesome. If we think about banking and financial services, what's your view on the current state of marketing today?

[Sue Herman]

Honestly, I think in some ways we're still recovering from 2008. I think the industry got a. A serious black eye during the financial collapse. Some of the hate was warranted, but some of it was misplaced. And so I think in some ways we're still working to earn back the public trust, which is tough because of the erosion of trust in institutions overall. It's not all doom and gloom, though. I think especially at bokf, we've dealt with that head on. Our CEO was very passionate about the industry, which is he's A standard bearer for the industry. And we've used it to pivot and lean really hard into content and developing our own publishing platform so that we could focus on delivering insight and advice rather than talking about product. Which checking account is a checking account, no matter where you are?

[Alan Hart]

That's so true. Yeah. And a lot of them are all very similar. So it really, I think, boils down to the relationship you have with the institution. It seems like content, to your point, like publishing on insights and advice is a good way to put yourself in the right space, if you will, for your clients and your customers. Is that how you think about it?

[Sue Herman]

Absolutely. If you think about those relationships one on one, whether you're sitting down with a personal banker or your wealth advisor, you're looking to them for advice. And so we're very good at delivering that advice one to one, building long relationships that span generations. But on the publishing side of the house, it becomes our experts offering insights and understanding. Predictions on if the strike for the shipping industry had continued, what would the impact be? Not only on can you find toilet paper at your grocery store, but what will the impact be on the market? And I think providing that type of insight gives people confidence that not only that this company knows what we're doing, but that they can make decisions based on confidence in the information that we're providing.

[Alan Hart]

I love it. Love it. No, that sounds. I think it's a good place for financial services to be in creating content. So kudos on the your work and the team's work on building out your content strategy as we think about banking and financial services more broadly. I'd love to get your perspective on gender diversity and what in the marketplace and any shifts that you think need to happen or are maybe starting to happen. I'm not sure.

[Sue Herman]

Alan, I'm going to horribly date myself here and say that I was working in financial services in the 90s when the head of the department at a bank that is no longer in existence, I was told that he didn't like the ladies to wear pants. And so we were expected to wear skirts every day.

[Alan Hart]

Oh my gosh.

[Sue Herman]

And we did. And pantyhose, which in St. Louis and July is falling a lovely combination. But I'll tell you, I think the industry has made significant progress since then. And for the industry Overall, about 60% of employees are women. But like most industries, women aren't as well represented in leadership positions. And like all industries, there tends to be areas where women do make a make up a higher percentage, like marketing, like hr, our Frontline operational and banking center team. And that often leads to those areas being undervalued. True story. I once had my role referred to as salid by an executive. So it's nice to have but not unnecessary. Oh my gosh. And I one I think we all need roughage, but that's beside the point. But the reality of it is that reminds me every day of the importance that we have to show up as strategic partners. We have to have a clear understanding of the business drivers and how we can impact that. And we also have to advocate and shut it down whenever anybody wants us. Make something look pretty or sound better, make progress. Women are better represented and why does this matter? Isn't that valid? But it is a need to have in one place. It's estimated that women will control approximately 2/3 of the household wealth in the US by 2030. But only half of women compared to 2/3 of men feel confident managing their investments.

[Alan Hart]

Staggering stats.

[Sue Herman]

It's staggering stats. And the reality of it is if we don't figure out how to serve the needs of both partners, of both spouses, of men and women, we will lose that business when that transition occurs. So we've gotten really serious about within our wealth division, about how we're showing up. Are we consciously involving both partners and client meetings in multiple generations and client meetings and making sure that we're creating space to ask questions, to answer questions and whether that's one on one with the group, with the family. It's not that we're women and we knew that this is what women needed, but by having diverse perspective and experience around the table, we were able to come to that realization quicker and that self view quicker. That we need to evolve our approach to make sure that we're meeting our clients where they are.

[Alan Hart]

For listeners that may not be following what you're referencing, this wealth transfer being affectionately called the great wealth transfer. And I'm going to get my numbers wrong, but I think it's something like $60 trillion in movement currently and will continue to move from one generation to another or from one spouse to. Or from a couple to one spouse as people naturally meet their end or expiration date. It's a huge. This is no longer salad I was going to use. I'll try to be more inclusive. I was going to say this is the steak, but I'll say this is the protein of the meal. Right. Whatever your protein source is. But if you don't get this right and diversity in the workplace is critical to get this right, you miss out you. You stand to miss out. And people that don't get this right stand to miss out on trillions of dollars.

[Sue Herman]

Absolutely. It's crazy. It's critical.

[Alan Hart]

Wow. Well, I'm glad we're talking about it.

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[Alan Hart]

I have to ask, and I don't mean to ask this just because you're a woman, because I'm a dad. But parenthood is a big part of employees lives. It's a big part of executive lives because we're all, many of us, not all, many of us are parents. I was curious what's been your approach to blend parenthood and career together? Because that's not easy either.

[Sue Herman]

I'll be honest. I think that for a lot of my career I was more of a glamour don't. I wasn't good at setting boundaries. I dropped a lot of balls that I was juggling and example. My daughters are now in college, but when they were younger their school had a big Christmas concert every year and so I meant to leave work early enough to pick them up to feed them a nourishing dinner and get them back to school. But in reality I took one more phone call. I talked with one more person who dropped by my office and got stuck in bad traffic. So by the time we got home, we had enough time for me to shove them into their tights and cute little dresses, maybe comb their hair. I'm not sure, honestly, if I did and prepare a dinner of toast for them to eat in the car as we drove back to school. And on the way back, I was overcome with this wave of guilt and I apologized to my girls for not managing the time better. And Sarah, who's my oldest, said around a mouthful of toast, that's okay, mom. And I was like, oh my God. I didn't scarred her for life. But she followed it up with, we're used to it. Nice to the heart. And so that moment did not feel like absolution, but on reflection, it really was. They're amazing humans and they are so adept at the ages of 19 and 21 at managing multiple deadlines. And growing up, I made a practice of bringing them to work in the workplace with me so that they could see what was so important in the meet the people that I worked with. And it made work real to them and not as a takeaway. And also people would usually give them sweets. So it was a win. I hope it made me a more empathetic human and a leader. For me, work is incredibly personal and so work life balance really is a work life blend for me and I try to make it in my interactions with my teams. I always take time to ask about the family, the pets, their hobbies. I have one member of my team, my creative lead, who runs marathons and so that's always a topic of conversation. So I think connecting as humans and not just employer employee frees people up to be more creative, which is obviously hugely important in marketing. So that's. I, I think parenthood. And I know you're a girl, dad, and I know it's the most humbling job ever. Yes, boy. It's a gift and I think it makes you apply those lessons you learn every day at home to being a better leader for your team.

[Alan Hart]

Yeah, no, I agree, I agree. It's definitely a humbling experience to have kids, especially teenagers. Oh my goodness. Yes. My. Mine turns 17 tomorrow. She, we got her here. She's in her junior, so we got one more year before we're empty nesters because we just had one. But yeah, it's a humbling experience. Now I feel like I almost have two wives, to be honest, in the best way possible. They both tell me what to do and when to do it. But. And I abide. I follow their rules. Good girl, dad.

[Sue Herman]

Very wise.

[Alan Hart]

Yes, yes. Who would not follow them like at the end of the day. And I. But to your point, I hope that I've had to make those tough trade offs as well. And I hope My daughter eventually will reflect and say, I know you didn't get everything right, dad, but at least you gave me an example for how to get some things right. That's the best I can hope for at this point.

[Sue Herman]

And sometimes it was a cautionary tale. Sometimes.

[Alan Hart]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sue Herman]

I definitely am not going to do that. And that's okay too.

[Alan Hart]

Yeah, no, exactly. I was actually talking to a colleague at work recently and she just came back, first child from maternity leave. And the mom guilt was huge. And I can't really help with that. I was listening to it and she's lucky enough that her mom is the nanny. And I was like, I don't know if you were, but I was like, I was one of those drop off daycare kids. Like I was in daycare probably from the moment I had to be. And his maternity leaves weren't very long when I was growing up. And not the excuse, but I think I turned out okay. And she, and she said I was a daycare kid too. And I was like, look at your daughter. She's like really bougie. She's got grandma taking care of her. She was, you know what, you're right. What am I worried about? And I was like, I don't know, what are you worried about? It was just a funny exchange, but I think we do, we want the best for them. But at the same time there are real practical trade offs that we have to make.

[Sue Herman]

Absolutely. And again it's that if it's your, their kids or their parents or that keeping that in the forefront of your mind for your team and let's bring it back to the workplace for your clients, for your customers and that to do something really well again, I think it, having it be personal, having it be really important to your heart and your soul, makes you more willing to go above and beyond and more sometimes more willing to be brave and experiment.

[Alan Hart]

Very true. Well, I guess before I change subjects, I should say, I love you, mom, even though you put me in daycare. I do love my mom. But as we think about this, what does this mean? Like how do you and you hit on this a touch. But what does this mean in terms of like you as a leader and what you need to recognize about the teams and the people that you're leading and their lives, if you will again.

[Sue Herman]

To make those connections and to not. I read an article from someone who quoted, they leave loudly. And so when you the inclination is if, oh, I've got to get to a doctor's appointment or I've got to Go to the parent teacher conference. I'm going to sneak out the back door so no one sees me leaving early. And that really, as leaders, you have a responsibility. Clomp down the hallway and announce to everyone I'm leaving early. I've taken Sarah or Sophie to the doctor, to the orthodontist, whatever it is, or taken mom to an appointment with her therapist, whatever it is that we intentionally create space for humanness. And then I'm a big believer in the importance of gratitude. And I've referenced our CEO a few times and he's an amazing note writer. He will send handwritten notes to people across the company. They just landed a new customer or they got a promotion, or they had a family success and people keep those notes. I thought it was just me and I had some in a drawer and I would not throw them away. But people have them pinned to their bulletin boards and they bring them home to share them with their family. And it's such a great reminder that showing gratitude, expressing gratitude in that very human and concrete way is so meaningful to your team. Present in the moment, write handwritten notes, compliment when you hear their kid graduated from high school. That's an achievement for the parents too. Connect with your team as a human first.

[Alan Hart]

I love that. I love that. And a friend of mine, I had to. Not that I want to drop and promote his business, but he. I just had. I was at a summit recently, an event, and we happened to land. We were technically on the same plane. Landed at the same time. I didn't see him until we were getting off the plane, but we were going to the same place. So we shared a. He had rented a car and I was going to Uber, so we shared a car ride. But you'll never forget his name because his name is James Brown. He's not that James Brown. Yeah, exactly, exactly. But he has a fantastic business that's all about helping organizations encourage others. And it's largely a lot of what you just described that your CEO is doing these small tokens to just say, you got this or you're doing a great job. And he is such a joy to be with too, because he's that kind of person as well. We had this probably half hour, 40 minute ride to where we were going and it was just like the best time I'd ever had. So, James, if you're listening, let's get. Let's go on a car ride again soon, bud. Well, this has been great, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's very. I'll even I'll give you one more story. Like we were, as we were driving out of the garage, you've got a rental car and they check your car right before you are actually allowed to leave. The attendant that was checking us out, James, has these occasionally, one of those bracelets that's got like a reminder on it on his wrist at all times. And he started chatting this guy up and the next thing you know, he's taking off his bracelet and he's here, man, I just want to tell you, you're doing a great job. You got this. Here's a little, here's a little reminder for me. The guy immediately put the bracelet on. It was almost like tears in his eyes. He's. I can't tell you how much that meant to me. Thank you. And that's just him and it. Yeah. And so those things you're talking about, they matter a lot and I think we take em for granted. But it's a really good reminder.

[Sue Herman]

Absolutely.

[Alan Hart]

One of the things we love to do on the show is get to know you a little bit better. We know a lot already. No boats, no blood, no gore. Great mom, high powered executive. But my, my question I love to ask everyone on the that comes on is, has there been an experience of your past that defines or makes up who you are today?

[Sue Herman]

This, I hate to start with a downer, but my dad died suddenly when I was in my 30s and it really instilled in me that tomorrow isn't guaranteed. So you got to make the most out of every day. Don't leave anything unsaid. Just really get out there and that. Trust me, I am not type A Tony Robbins hard charging, but it really is that. Take those moments, live in those moments, be present in those moments because you don't know there are no guarantees where life's going to take you next.

[Alan Hart]

Yeah, yeah, no, that's so true. So true. I'm sorry. I know it's been a while, but sorry for your loss. That's never easy.

[Sue Herman]

Thank you.

[Alan Hart]

What advice would you give your younger self if you're starting this journey all over again?

[Sue Herman]

Be more brave. Stop talking yourself out of whatever it is and just go for it.

[Alan Hart]

I love that, love that. You need to put that on a bracelet. Is there a topic you're trying to learn more about or you think marketers in general need to be learning more about today?

[Sue Herman]

I hate to be stereotypical, but it's truly the good, the bad and the ugly of AI and I think it's both sides. How can we use it to make our work better and to better deliver marketing and our product in a more personalized and relevant way to our audiences. But also how to make sure that the ugly side isn't creating more disbelief or disconnectedness in our society as a whole. I think it's. Stanley was right. With great power comes great responsibility and AI is going to be a clear case for that.

[Alan Hart]

Yeah. Yeah. And I think the more I'm learning about it and it could change tomorrow, but it still feels like we've got to maintain the humanity in the AI and getting that is going to be hard. But that's what's in front of us.

[Sue Herman]

I think I will still believe that human beings are a much more creative spark than AI can be.

[Alan Hart]

Yeah. Yes. I tend to agree. Somebody smarter than me was on here on the show talking about this and said something to the fact of the way it today, the way the models work is it's leveraging all the things that have come before. So yes, it can recombine things that look original, but it takes a human to break the math to, to become ultra creative. There's another way to think about it.

[Sue Herman]

Yeah. The copy I've seen written by AI, it's still. It sounds like your intern wrote it.

[Alan Hart]

Yes.

[Sue Herman]

Not like your best writer. And I again, I think we, we still have a gift that the machines can't match yet.

[Alan Hart]

Yes. Are there any trends or subcultures that you follow you think other people should take notice of?

[Sue Herman]

Probably because I'm the mother of two of them. But Gen Z, I think they're digital natives. Their formative years were in the middle of COVID I think Zoomers are going to challenge companies to rethink a lot of our long standing assumptions in so many different ways. And I think we have to be personalized and prove relevant and meaning for that generation because they expect it. And I think it's going to be harder than we think right now.

[Alan Hart]

Yeah. Yeah. As a dad to one, I would agree. Just explaining things even in the teenage years. I know it's always been hard with teenagers, but they have better arguments now. You're like, yeah, I don't know why we do it like that. It's a really good point. And sometimes I'm like, I would really love to live in your world because the world would be a much better place than I live right now.

[Sue Herman]

Yes. Think about it. For them, they know how to do everything because they don't read the instruction manual. They YouTube it, they search it and see. So their limitations are so vastly different. Than what we had at that age.

[Alan Hart]

That's right. That's right. Awesome. Last question for you. What do you feel like is the largest opportunity or threat facing marketers today?

[Sue Herman]

I think the biggest threat is the noise. I think there's just, there's not a lot of time or space to create engagement with your audiences. And again, I mentioned the kind of the disbelief and the disconnection, the lack of trust. And so it's harder to create space for that meaningful connection and to demonstrate that you can add value because there's a lot of volume. This one goes to 11 and we need to figure out how do we tune that down so people can have that opportunity to focus and connect and make those decisions.

[Alan Hart]

I 100% agree with that. That's amazing. Sue. This has been a fun, really fun conversation. So thank you for coming on the show, Alan.

[Sue Herman]

Thank you for having me. And enjoy that teen year old and know that she sees you getting smarter every year. She's just not ready to admit it yet.

[Alan Hart]

So true. So true. Yes. Thank you. Hi, it's Alan again. Marketing Today was created and produced by me with post production support from Sam Roberts. If you're new to Marketing Today, please feel free to write us a review on itunes or your favorite listening platform. Don't forget to subscribe on marketingtodaypodcast.com and tell your friends and colleagues about the show. I love hearing from listeners. You can contact [e-mail] there. You'll also find complete show notes and links to what was discussed in the episode today and you can search our archives. I'm Alan Hart and this is Marketing Today.

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