From “Unlocking the Gates”: Action and Accountability

Summary

Marketplace Morning Report: "Unlocking the Gates" Episode 3 – Action and Accountability

Release Date: March 14, 2025
Host: Lee Hawkins
Published By: Marketplace

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Introduction

In the third episode of the "Unlocking the Gates" series, hosted by Lee Hawkins, Marketplace delves deep into the historical and systemic factors contributing to the racial wealth gap in the United States, particularly within the real estate sector. Through insightful conversations with key figures such as Jackie Berry and Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan, the episode unpacks the legacy of discriminatory housing policies and explores ongoing efforts to address and rectify these injustices.

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Historical Context and Family Legacies

The Impact of Racial Covenants

Lee Hawkins opens the discussion by highlighting the enduring effects of racial covenants on homeownership rates among Black families. Jackie Berry, a board member at Minneapolis Area Realtors, underscores the severity of the disparity:

Jackie Berry (01:21): "Currently, I think it's around 76% of white families own homes, and it's somewhere around 25, 26% for black families. If we're talking about Minnesota, in comparison to other states, we are one of the worst with that housing disparity gap."

Berry attributes this gap to historical practices that excluded Black families from homeownership opportunities, thereby preventing them from building intergenerational wealth.

Personal Histories and Real Estate

Margaret Thorpe Richards shares her personal journey and the realization of her family's unwitting role in perpetuating housing discrimination. Coming from a lineage tied to Thorpe Brothers, a significant real estate firm established in 1885, Margaret recounts her late discovery of the company's involvement in enforcing racial covenants:

Margaret Thorpe Richards (08:20): "When I found out, I was horrified. It felt shameful. I'm not going to fix anything, but I would like to show up in a way that says I think this was wrong and I'd like to help make it right."

Her candid admission highlights the complexities of confronting family histories intertwined with systemic racism and the challenges of taking responsibility without tarnishing the family legacy.

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Contemporary Efforts to Bridge the Gap

Policy Initiatives and Investments

Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan emphasizes the importance of actionable policies over mere acknowledgments. She articulates the administration's commitment to tangible change:

Peggy Flanagan (12:32): "An apology is powerful, but in the same way that I think things like land acknowledgments are powerful, if you don't have policies and investments to back them up, then they're simply words."

Flanagan discusses recent legislative efforts, including a significant $150 million initiative aimed at assisting first-time homebuyers from Black, Indigenous, and communities of color (BIPOC):

Peggy Flanagan (14:46): "We passed in 2023 was $150 million directed at first-time homebuyers and black indigenous and communities of color. We see that, I think as a down payment right on the work."

Education and Training

Addressing the need for systemic change within the real estate industry, Jackie Berry advocates for enhanced training and development:

Jackie Berry (14:08): "We need to increase our training and development. For example, not every state has a fair housing requirement in terms of continuing education. So in Minnesota, a realtor has to do complete fair housing credits every two years..."

This initiative aims to educate realtors on avoiding discrimination and promoting equitable representation, fostering a more inclusive housing market.

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Overcoming Political and Social Challenges

Navigating Political Climate

The episode also touches on the political challenges faced by policymakers advocating for social justice initiatives. Lieutenant Governor Flanagan reflects on the aftermath of the 2024 presidential election and the fatigue among constituents regarding social justice discussions:

Peggy Flanagan (15:26): "Listen, I'm a Native American woman named Peggy Flanagan. I've been doing this dance my entire life... people are sick and tired of being told that they have to hate their neighbor."

She emphasizes the necessity of dialogue and finding common ground to move forward collaboratively:

Peggy Flanagan (16:29): "The biggest thing that we need to do right now is dialogue, is show up and like, listen and, you know, find those common values and common ground."

Building Relationships Across the Aisle

Flanagan highlights the importance of bipartisan cooperation, even if it means avoiding polarizing terms like "reparations":

Peggy Flanagan (17:00): "I don't know that they say reparations. But I would say that's a very... Everything that we do has to be grounded in relationships."

This approach underscores the strategy of fostering relationships and trust as foundational elements for effective policy implementation.

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Reflections and Future Directions

Slow Progress and Continued Efforts

Both Margaret Thorpe Richards and Jackie Berry express concerns over the slow pace of progress in closing the housing disparity gap. Margaret calls for sustained efforts to fuel movement:

Margaret Thorpe Richards (13:51): "I don't see it changing very quickly. So I don't know how to sort of fuel that effort or movement."

Berry reiterates the need for ongoing education and systemic reforms to ensure equitable housing opportunities.

The Power of Representation

Lieutenant Governor Flanagan notes the positive impact of increased diversity in legislative bodies:

Peggy Flanagan (14:46): "The legislature is the most diverse legislature we've ever had. Three black women who are elected to the Senate, the very first black women ever to serve."

This representation is viewed as a critical step towards undoing historical injustices and fostering inclusive policymaking.

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Conclusion

"Unlocking the Gates" Episode 3 provides a comprehensive exploration of the historical and present-day factors contributing to the racial wealth gap in housing. Through personal narratives and expert insights, the episode underscores the complexity of addressing systemic racism in real estate. The discussions with Jackie Berry and Peggy Flanagan illuminate both the challenges and the progressive steps being taken to create more equitable housing opportunities. As the series continues, it poses essential questions about the choices society will make to foster inclusivity and rectify enduring injustices in the housing market.

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Produced by: Marcel Malakibu and Meredith Garretson Morby
Sound Engineer: Gary O'Keefe
Executive Producer: Kelly Silvera

Transcript

[Peggy Flanagan]

An apology is powerful, but in the same way that I think things like land acknowledgments are powerful, if you don't have policies and investments to back them up, then they're simply words.

[Lee Hawkins]

You'Re listening to. Unlocking The Gates Episode 3 My Name is Lee Hawkins. I'm a journalist and author of the book I Am Nobody's How Uncovering My Family's History Set Me free. I investigated 400 years of my black family's history. How enslavement and Jim Crow apartheid in my father's home state of Alabama, the great migration to St. Paul and our later move to the suburbs. Ship community and collaboration are at the heart of this story. I've shared deeply personal accounts, we've explored historical records, and everyone we've spoken to has generously offered their memories and perspectives. Jackie Berry is a board member at Minneapolis Area Realtors. She's been working to address the racial wealth gap in real estate. And she says we need to do better.

[Jackie Berry]

We have. Currently, I think it's around 76% of white families own homes, and it's somewhere around 25, 26% for black families. If we're talking about Minnesota, in comparison to other states, we are one of the worst with that housing disparity gap. And so it's interesting because while we make progress and we bring in new programs or implement new policies to help with this gap, we're still not seeing too big of a movement quite yet.

[Lee Hawkins]

Jackie says there's a clear reason for this.

[Jackie Berry]

Racial covenants had a direct correlation with the wealth gap that we have here today. If you think about a family being excluded from home ownership, that means now they don't have the equity within their home to help make other moves for their family, whether it's putting money towards education or helping someone else purchase a home or reducing debt in other areas.

[Lee Hawkins]

In their life, racial covenants were not just discriminatory clauses. They were systemic barriers that shaped housing markets and entrenched inequality.

[Peggy Flanagan]

In my community of St. Louis park, there are several racial covenants. You know, our home does not have one.

[Lee Hawkins]

Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan is the highest ranking Native American female politician in the country. I asked her about her experience and how it informs her leadership.

[Peggy Flanagan]

I can tell you that I never forget that I'm a kid who benefited from a Section 8 housing voucher and that my family buying a home made a dentist in that number of native homeowners in this state. And I take that really seriously, you.

[Lee Hawkins]

Know, and it's powerful because I relate to you on that, you know, this series is about just that, about the way that the system worked for a group of people of color who were just doing what everyone else wants to do is to achieve the American dream for their children. And so I see you getting choked up a little bit about that, and that's what this series is about. Homeownership is more than a marker of personal achievement. It's a cornerstone of the US economy. Real estate accounts for 18% of GDP, and each home sale generates two jobs. This is why state officials and business leaders continue to prioritize stable and thriving communities. Remember, earlier in the series, we spoke about some other influential men in the state who were involved in creating the housing disparity gap that we have today.

[Peggy Flanagan]

I don't believe that Thomas Frankson ever imagined that there would be an Ojibwe woman as Lieutenant governor several years after he was in this role. And additionally. Right, it's symbolic, but also representation without tangible results. Right. Frankly, doesn't matter. And so I think acknowledging that history is powerful, I think it has to do with how we heal and move forward, and we can't get stuck there.

[Margaret Thorpe Richards]

Thorpe Brothers was very much a part of my childhood and sort of upbringing. But my own father, Frank Thorpe, was not part of the real estate business. He chose to do investments.

[Lee Hawkins]

This is Margaret Thorpe Richards. Her grandfather is Samuel Thorpe, head of Thorpe Brothers, the largest real estate firm in Minneapolis, which he helped establish in 1885. I asked her to share her memories of him.

[Margaret Thorpe Richards]

So my uncle, my dad's brother, Sam Thorpe iii, also followed in the Thorpe Brothers family business. And he ran it until kind of the. Maybe the early 80s or mid-80s, but anyway, they sold off the residential to another big broker here and then just kept commercial. So while I was growing up, you know, I was aware about real estate, but not actively involved. Both my grandfather and grandmother, they were very much, I don't know, white, upper class. You know, I remember going to dinner at their house. They weren't very reachable, like, personally. So I never really had a relationship with them, even though they lived two or three doors down. And that's kind of my recollection.

[Lee Hawkins]

Okay. And so at that time, there was no indication that there was any racism in their hearts or anything like that.

[Margaret Thorpe Richards]

Oh, I don't know if I want.

[Lee Hawkins]

To say that Margaret's entry into the real estate business didn't happen in the way you might expect given her grandfather's outsized role in the industry.

[Margaret Thorpe Richards]

I went to my Uncle Sam, who was at the helm of Thorpe Brothers. Real estate, it was still intact. And he didn't see the. The opportunity or the talent that I had, which I have to say, I always have had. I'm not going to be boastful, but I'm really good at sales. And so he never. He never explored that. And I think basically that was sexism. We didn't really have a great relationship. My father died early. He died when I was 18, so that also impacted things. And it was my mother, who's not the blood relative. Mary Thorpe Meese, she went into real estate during kind of the boom years of 2000. She said, you need to come. She said, don't worry, I'll help you get started. And we had a good long run for probably 10 years. And then she retired. And I've been on my own until a year and a half ago when my oldest son, Alexander, joined me as my business partner. So now we're the Thorpe Richards team. And he is essentially fifth generation Realtor of the fourth family.

[Lee Hawkins]

The nature of her family's role in the origins of discriminatory housing policy is a recent discovery for Margaret and her two sons.

[Margaret Thorpe Richards]

I really didn't know about these covenants until it was 2019 when and I was actually on the board of the Minneapolis Area association of Realtors.

[Lee Hawkins]

I asked her how she felt.

[Margaret Thorpe Richards]

When she found out, I was horrified. It felt shameful. I'm not going to fix anything, but I would like to show up in a way that says I think this was wrong and I'd like to help make it right. I felt like I needed to take some ownership. I also was a little worried about putting a stain on the Thorpe name by sort of speaking my truth or what. I feel we have a huge family, so I was reluctant maybe to speak out against, you know, the wrongs. However, I've just been trying to do my job at educating and being welcoming and creating it as part of our mission that we want to, you know, serve those who have not been well served and have been discriminated and who've had an economic hardship because of the way that things were.

[Lee Hawkins]

I can relate to what Margaret is.

[Margaret Thorpe Richards]

Saying here, and that has proven to be challenging as well. I'm not going to lie. I'm white, I'm not black. So how do I sort of reach over to extend our expertise and services to a population that maybe wants to deal with somebody else who looks like them or. I don't know. It's a tricky endeavor and we continue to try and do outreach.

[Lee Hawkins]

I went through a similar range of Emotions and thoughts while writing my book and uncovering family secrets that some of my relatives would rather not think about. It led to some difficult discussions. I asked her if she'd had those discussions with her family.

[Margaret Thorpe Richards]

This might be it, Lee. This could be the conversation.

[Lee Hawkins]

Okay.

[Margaret Thorpe Richards]

I feel like it's time to say something from my perspective. I have a platform, I have a voice, and I think it needs to be said and discussed and talked about.

[Lee Hawkins]

One thing that struck me in my conversation with Margaret is her advanced level understanding of the issue. She mentioned the challenge of foundational Black Americans vs immigrants. Families who moved from the south looking for opportunities after World War I and II were most severely affected by these discriminatory policies. Here's Jackie Berry, board member of Minneapolis.

[Jackie Berry]

Area realtors between 1930 and 1960. And to me, this is a staggering statistic. Less than 1% of all mortgages were granted to African Americans across the country. That truly speaks to having a lack of equity to pull out of any homes to be able to increase their wealth and help out other family members.

[Lee Hawkins]

Efforts to address this are well advanced here. Yet Lieutenant Governor Flanagan is clear about how much more can and should be done.

[Peggy Flanagan]

It's important to acknowledge and to provide folks with the resources needed to change and remove those covenants, which is a whole lot of paperwork, but I think is worth doing. And then figure out how do we make these investments work in partnership with the community?

[Lee Hawkins]

I asked why the state has not issued an official apology for its role in pioneering structural housing discrimination and whether she sees any value in doing so.

[Peggy Flanagan]

An apology is powerful, but in the same way that I think things like land acknowledgments are powerful. If you don't have policies and investments to back them up, then they're simply words. So I think the work that we have done during our administration is one of the ways that we correct those wrongs. Explicitly apologizing, I think, could be something that is powerful. And I don't want us to just get stuck, stuck there without doing the actual work that people expect of us.

[Lee Hawkins]

I wanted to understand what that work is.

[Peggy Flanagan]

I think when we increase homeownership rates within our communities, it's a benefit to the state as a whole.

[Lee Hawkins]

Right. Okay. So not necessarily going back and doing reparatory justice, but looking out into the future.

[Peggy Flanagan]

But I think that is reparatory justice. Making those investments in communities that have been historically underserved. You know, partnering with nonprofits that are led by and for communities of color that are trusted.

[Lee Hawkins]

I asked all three women for their thoughts on the pace of progress, here's Margaret.

[Margaret Thorpe Richards]

I don't see it changing very quickly. So I don't know how to sort of fuel that effort or movement. It seems like we talk about it a lot, yet the needle isn't moving.

[Jackie Berry]

And Jackie, we need to increase our training and development. For example, not every state has a fair housing requirement in terms of continuing education. So in Minnesota, a realtor has to do complete fair housing credits every two years, meaning that they're getting some type of education related to learning about housing discrimination and how to avoid it, how to represent clients equitably, understanding rules and regulations around fair housing.

[Lee Hawkins]

And Lieutenant Governor Flanagan, our legislation that.

[Peggy Flanagan]

We passed in 2023 was $150 million directed at first time homebuyers and black indigenous and communities of color. We see that, I think as a down payment right on the work. Need these to happen. The legislature is the most diverse legislature we've ever had. Three black women who are elected to the Senate, the very first black women ever to serve. And I think we start to see the undoing of some of that injustice simply because there are more of us at the table.

[Lee Hawkins]

Communicating these complex policies and ideas is no easy task at the best of times. I was talking to the lieutenant governor shortly after the 2024 presidential election, which delivered a stinging rebuke of the Democratic party and many of the social justice initiatives it champions.

[Peggy Flanagan]

Listen, I'm a Native American woman named Peggy Flanagan. I've been doing this dance my entire life, right? And you know, I, I also know that Minnesotans really care about their neighbors. They really care about their communities and the state. And frankly, people are sick and tired of being told that they have to hate their neighbor.

[Lee Hawkins]

We're over it. What do you say to them when they say that's woke And I'm tired of it. I'm fatigued. I didn't do anything. I didn't steal land. I didn't enslave people. And I'm feeling attacked.

[Peggy Flanagan]

The biggest thing that we need to do right now is dialogue, is show up and like, listen and, you know, find those common values and common ground.

[Lee Hawkins]

And this doesn't have to be a partisan conversation.

[Peggy Flanagan]

It does not. And frankly, it shouldn't be.

[Lee Hawkins]

Have you seen that kind of, that kind of cooperation between the parties in Minnesota here, Whether it's actually some of these reparations measures could be doable?

[Peggy Flanagan]

I don't know that they say reparations.

[Lee Hawkins]

Right.

[Peggy Flanagan]

But I would say that's a very.

[Lee Hawkins]

Polarizing word to some.

[Peggy Flanagan]

Everything that we do has to be grounded in relationships.

[Lee Hawkins]

Throughout this series, we've explored the legacies of Frank and Marie Toric, who embodied allyship and fairness by making land accessible to black families. James and Frances Hughes built on that opportunity, fostering collaboration within the Black community by creating pathways to home ownership. These families, in their own ways, represent the power of choice to open doors, to to challenge norms and to plant seeds of progress. Their stories remind us that even within deeply flawed systems, individuals can make decisions that echo across generations. But as we reckon with the enduring impacts of housing discrimination and inequity, the question remains in our time, what choices will we make to move forward and who will they benefit? You've been listening to Unlocking the How the North Led Housing Discrimination in America, a special series by APM Studios and Marketplace apm, with research support from the Alicia Patterson foundation and Mapping Prejudice, hosted and created by me, Lee Hawkins, produced by Marcel Malakibu and senior producer Meredith Garretson Morby. Our sound engineer is Gary O'Keefe. Kelly Silvera is executive producer.

[Janelie Espinal]

Consumer confidence had its sharpest monthly decline since 2020 21, which means we're all in our feels about money. And while uncertainty is the only constant these days, it's also a great reason to get serious about understanding personal finance. I'm Janelie Espinal, host of Financially Inclined, a podcast from Marketplace that makes learning about money simple. Learn about practical skills like negotiating job offers, dealing with money and friendship and love, entrepreneurship and student loans. Get serious about your money and build a life you've always dreamed of. Listen to Financially Inclined wherever you get your podcasts.