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- [00:01]
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- [00:30]
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- [01:00]
Kai Ryssdal
Hey, everybody, it's Kai. We're dropping something special in the feed today. It's a live show that we did here in Los Angeles about a week, maybe 10 days ago. First of all, Kyla Scanlon, you know her from the program also maybe from her newsletters and her social feeds. We had her on stage for a while talking to me about everything going on in this economy. And then David Brancaccio about what's next for him at Marketplace as he moves off the Marketplace Morning Report. As always, you can check things out on our website or sign up for the latest updates from our newsletters. Marketplace.org newsletters Hope you enjoy the show. Stop, stop, stop. They wanted to play the Marketplace Gong as I came out and then the music and I was like, so you remember those dreams you had when you were a kid and you wound up in school in your underwear? So I this is a true story. I have these things called dead air dreams where I hear that music and in the dream, I'm not where I'm supposed to be. It's the worst. And I said, you are absolutely not playing that before I go out in front of 800 people. So there's that. Thank you so much for coming. I am so grateful that you have decided to spend a little bit of time with us today. We have not done a big live show like this in a very long time and I am probably more pleased than anybody because I spend a whole lot of time locked in a soundproof room talking to a microphone. So the Idea that I get to get out and see actual people truly makes it all worthwhile. The show today is going to come in three parts. We're going to talk about the economy, obviously, and we're going to do it with a woman who has become one of my go tos as I try to figure out what is happening. Your questions for her via also welcome. You guys have to let me know if my mic dies and I'll just grab another one second, we're going to talk about Marketplace and how we do what we do. And we're going to do that with the guy who I truly believe is more responsible for the way the program sounds and how we do what we do than anybody else. Your questions for him as well are welcome. And then finally at the end, for just a couple of minutes, we're going to talk about everything else that's happening, what I make of it and maybe what it means. So on to part one of our program. A couple of years ago I was at work scrolling through my Instagram. Yes, I was at work scrolling Instagram. Don't tell my bosses, but the excuse is it was Fed Day. The Federal Reserve had that day raised its benchmark interest rate, the federal Funds rate, by 25 basis points, a quarter of 1 percentage point. And that was a big deal because if you remember back then, 2023ish, the middle of that year, inflation was going up, people a little agitated. Covid was still not completely in the rearview mirror and it was a very big deal because the Fed also said that day we don't think there's going to be a recession. And that was good news. So there I am scrolling my Instagram and this post pops up.
- [04:13]
Kyla Scanlon
The Federal Reserve is no longer forecasting a recession and we just wanted to thank some of the economic stars that got us to where we are today. First off, Taylor Swift, you bought tickets, you booked hotels and you rode those lift scooters in the middle of the street quite dangerously. Most importantly, you boosted tdp. She should probably be tailored domestic product. Second, Barbenheimer. And of course big business government spending really bolstered this economy. So what did the Federal Reserve do today? We raised rates by 25. Will we do it again? Maybe. Maybe. It depends on the data because we are data dependent. But it's not a two. Two is elusive. It haunts me. Growth is moderate but not modest and we really need this labor market still out. Real wages are moving upwards, but we don't want that dependent.
- [05:04]
David Brancaccio
The point is resilience of the economy. Recently they are no longer forecasting for a recession.
- [05:14]
Kai Ryssdal
So little, little known fact, Jay Powell, the chairman of the Fed can talk Taylor Swift with you. I happen to know that from personal experience. So anyway, so there I am at work scrolling through my answer and that thing pops up and I send it to the rest of the team. And I said, we have got to get Kyla Scanlon on the program because we are doing the same thing. We are trying to make people understand the economic forces that shape their lives in the marketplace, branding, language. We are trying to raise the economic intelligence of this country. She's doing it with a different style, a better style, a hipper style, granted. Right. But we're doing the same thing. So we had her on then. We've had her on a couple of times since. She has now written a book. She's working on her second one. She's got a newsletter you should subscribe to. The first book is called She's Going to Be Out Here in a Minute. I can ask her. No, it's called in this Economy How Money and Markets Really Work. She's got a million something followers on all of her socials. And believe me when I tell you, we are very, very lucky indeed that she was free today. Kylo Scanlan. So did we tell you we were going to play that one?
- [06:33]
Kyla Scanlon
No, I didn't know that a video was going to be played.
- [06:36]
Kai Ryssdal
Your style has changed, I think it's fair to say, in the last couple of years.
- [06:39]
Kyla Scanlon
No, that was from I think two years ago.
- [06:41]
Kai Ryssdal
Yeah. Yeah, 20, 23.
- [06:42]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah. Different era.
- [06:43]
Kai Ryssdal
Well, let's talk. Well, we're going to talk about why it's different era for you, different era for this economy. Just so everybody knows because not everybody's necessarily familiar. How did you get into the economic education? This is my life kind of thing.
- [06:57]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah. So it's really an honor to be here with you today. I am also a big fan of Marketplace and a huge fan of Chi. So it's such an honor to be on this stage and to talk about economics on a Sunday afternoon.
- [07:09]
Kai Ryssdal
Doesn't get any better than this, ladies and gentlemen, does it? Yeah, buddy.
- [07:14]
Kyla Scanlon
Very committed. Very committed. Yeah. So I'm Kyla. I grew up in Kentucky and, you know, was raised there, went to college there and I sold cars when I was 19 years old. And that was one of the most formative economic experiences that I had. Because you had people come in because buying a car is really confusing. They wouldn't know what an interest rate was or, you know, how to sort of manage the monthly payment. And that's when I realized that economics education was really important. And so I graduated college in 2019, right before the pandemic. And during the pandemic, I realized I really wanted to focus on economics education and had the chance to do so through making Instagram and TikTok short form videos. They work, I'm telling you, and it's been really fun. It's been amazing. Yeah. To kind of go from making those videos that you saw to where I am now. Yeah.
- [08:12]
Kai Ryssdal
Those in the audience who are only passingly familiar with you will probably have heard the phrase vibe session. Right. That was. That was not your big breakthrough, but that was the thing that really sort of. Oh, my God. This woman, Kyla Scanlan, came up with this phrase. Remind us what vibe session was and whether or not you think it still applies.
- [08:30]
Kyla Scanlon
So a vibe session was coined in July of 2022, and it was to describe the gap between data and sentiment. So during that time, you know, we were coming down from the pandemic, so inflation was coming down, the labor market was growing, GDP was going up, but consumer sentiment was really, really low. So people were not feeling super good about the economy. And that was a big mystery, and it still is. A lot of people are trying to figure out exactly why that happened. Excuse me, but that was the idea behind the vibe session is what is the economic data not capturing that is showing up in sentiment?
- [09:08]
Kai Ryssdal
And where are we now? Vibe session wise? What do you think?
- [09:11]
Kyla Scanlon
So the economy is in a much different place than it was in 2022. There's a lot has changed. So we have, you know, more headaches with inflation. We have a lot of questions around the labor market. Sentiment is still really low, but that disconnect doesn't quite exist in the same way that it used to. So I personally don't think we're in one. People disagree with me, which is fine. But.
- [09:35]
Kai Ryssdal
Yeah, yeah, fair enough. I should have started with this. Why does what we do matter? Why is it important? Go ahead and take your sip of water. Sorry I did the Marco Rubio thing on you. I'm really sorry.
- [09:50]
Kyla Scanlon
What was.
- [09:50]
Kai Ryssdal
Why does it matter? Why is it important? I've got my answer. I'm sure you do too.
- [09:54]
Kyla Scanlon
Oh, man. Well, I think the reason that the economy matters is because it's everything. So if you buy a cup of coffee. No, I'm serious. If you buy a cup of coffee, you. If you rent a place, if you're trying to buy a house, if you're trying to afford childcare, if you're trying to afford elder care, like, the economy is everything. And it's one thing that we just don't do a good job of educating people on. And there's been a lot of pretty valiant efforts in order to try to do so. But it's something that I think a lot of people worry about. Like, money is a topic that people do not like talking about, but yet it's this thing that touches our lives in so many important ways. And so I think educating people on how, how it works, their role in it, it really helps move things along.
- [10:40]
Kai Ryssdal
Our audiences are different. Yours are young, ours is not. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Please keep listening. Come on. Puts food on the table.
- [10:52]
Kyla Scanlon
That's so bold.
- [10:56]
Kai Ryssdal
But here's what I want to know. When you interact with your followers, your subscribers. Right. Most of whom, and we talked about this the very first time you were on Marketplace, skew younger and male, what do you hear from them? What do they tell you about how they're feeling about this economy?
- [11:09]
Kyla Scanlon
Well, so it's. It is. The audience primarily is like 20 to 35 years old. I'm 28. And so the group that I speak to is a group that was pretty disrupted, as I'm sure everyone in the audience was pretty disrupted by the pandemic. The labor market hasn't been quite working in their favor. Inflation has been alongside their adult life pretty much the entire time. And. And it's just, there's a lot of nihilism, I would say, so people not believing in the economy, a lot of tendencies to try and get rich quick, which I think is pretty understandable. So gambling, sports betting, that kind of stuff.
- [11:46]
Kai Ryssdal
Day trading.
- [11:47]
Kyla Scanlon
Right, Day trading, all that stuff. Yeah. So that all shows up. It's people who, they feel pretty displaced by the economy.
- [11:56]
Kai Ryssdal
And so as you speak to them on your socials, what's in the back of your mind? How are you thinking about it?
- [12:03]
Kyla Scanlon
Well, I mean, I think. And you all do such a good job at this. I think that the most important thing to do when you're talking about the economy is not to scare people. It's already scary enough, and I find your show is very effective at that, very calming. And so I try to emulate you.
- [12:19]
David Brancaccio
I'm good with it.
- [12:20]
Kyla Scanlon
Try to calm you.
- [12:20]
Kai Ryssdal
I should tell you, by the way, we had never seen each other until an hour and a half ago.
- [12:23]
Kyla Scanlon
Isn't that crazy?
- [12:24]
Kai Ryssdal
True story. Is it scary out there now? Do you think so?
- [12:30]
Kyla Scanlon
In the world?
- [12:31]
Kai Ryssdal
Well, in the economy. Let's talk world will be later. Economy will be right now. Is it scary, do you think?
- [12:38]
Kyla Scanlon
I think that in the Federal Reserve they talk about this in their meetings. I think the trend is concerning. So inflation hasn't been going the way that anybody really wants it to. It's pretty sticky, and it's sticky in tough parts of the economy. So housing inflation, services inflation. So I think that's pretty tough. And then I think also what is growing the economy? So what's driving us forward? There's a lot of questions about what exactly that is. You know, is it AI, is it something else? What role does AI have with the labor market? So I think there's just a lot of questions and a lot of uncertainty right now. Yeah.
- [13:22]
Kai Ryssdal
AI bubble or no bubble?
- [13:24]
Kyla Scanlon
Well, I mean, it's interesting because the companies are starting to take out a lot of debt. And so once you start taking out debt, that's when I think a lot of people start to get worried because debt is very, very serious. If you're unable to pay back debt, then all the dominoes start tipping.
- [13:41]
Kai Ryssdal
Actually, since you mentioned it, debt, you had a piece in the New York Times a couple, three weeks ago, ish. About the national debt. Why are you worried about it?
- [13:51]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah, these are all the hard. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, the national debt, this has been a problem forever. And the United States is very lucky because we're able to run these, have a huge debt load, and other countries will still choose to invest with us, Buy Treasuries. But that piece that I wrote in the New York Times opinion section was about how the US Debt can be weaponized against it. So the US Is very reliant on other countries to continue to buy up U.S. treasuries, continuing to invest with the U.S. and some of the decisions that the U.S. has made with entering a war or military event or whatever they're calling it, other countries are noticing that and could choose not to buy the Treasuries. And then it creates this big vacuum in terms of how the US Actually finances itself.
- [14:41]
Kai Ryssdal
I'm going to pull this back out of the weeds in one second, but first I have to ask this. What about the dollar and its status as a reserve currency and all of that stuff?
- [14:48]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah, I mean, the dollar is. A lot of people have been worried about it for a while, but I think what we're seeing is people trying to turn to alternatives. So China has created their own alternatives to the dollar. Their central bank is heavily investing and buying up a lot of gold to create some proxy to the dollar there. I think, again, the US is very lucky and it's very privileged. And the dollar is so intertwined with all the financial systems that it'd be very hard to untangle it. So I think that itself protects the dollar. But yeah, it's, you know, people are worried about that.
- [15:24]
Kai Ryssdal
Yeah. Okay, so on Monday I started the program. We had noticed that the markets are just being whipsawed. You know, Trump says one thing and it goes this way, Trump says the other thing goes this way and then he bombs more and it goes sideways. And I posited on the radio that perhaps the markets are an idiot, that they don't. Right. I mean, you know, they're not the economy, but they are also an idiot. And I guess, I wonder what is your sense of why they are so detached from the pandemonium? That's my question.
- [16:01]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah. Your theory is that they're idiots?
- [16:04]
Kai Ryssdal
Oh, I think so. Look, I'm being flip here and I try really hard not to do that. But fundamentally the markets don't care whether you live or die. Right. And as long as they see short term gains, whether it's in defense stocks or technology or what have you, they're fine. And if the President says ten day pause. So look, you saw this on Thursday, right? Markets close at 4 Eastern, at 411 after the worst close during the war, in three weeks, the President comes out and says, oh, you know what, ten more days, right? And then the next day futures were up. I mean they closed down the next day, but whatever, right? The market is just pinging back and forth and it's, there's, look, I understand it's all algorithmic trading, but there's, there's no sensibility of the, the chaos that's happening in these things that we use to try to help measure what's going on out there. And I guess I wonder what your sense is of that.
- [16:53]
Kyla Scanlon
No, I totally, I do agree with you that it's quite disturbing almost to watch the market be so complacent with this. It's like, what do you expect? Do you think AI is going to be safe? Right? Like, and there was an interesting Bloomberg article where they interviewed a portfolio manager who was like, yeah, I think big tech's fine. Like, I think everything's gonna be cool. Big tech's gonna continue to go up Mag 7 forever. And it's like, I just, I don't know if you understand how the energy markets work, but yeah, it's just. Right. So, yeah, I think that's the concern. And that was like, also I tried to get across in A recent piece of writing of mine where if the markets did care, we would be in a much different spot.
- [17:42]
Kai Ryssdal
Explain that. That's really important. Explain that.
- [17:45]
Kyla Scanlon
Well, so President Trump is very responsive to, to the market. So if you had the stock market begin to sell off like 10%, 15%, he would be making different decisions. This is the taco situation. Trump always chickens out. But it's, you know, it's true. Like, if the stock market did sell off, I think we'd not be in a war, to be honest. Which is a bold statement.
- [18:11]
Kai Ryssdal
But, no, it's common sense. I completely agree with you. It's, it's fact based. I mean, you know, more on that later. I know I'm promising a lot for like the last seven minutes of the show this afternoon, but I hope I'll deliver. No pressure, guy. Also, you think I know how to talk into a microphone without pee popping? Sorry about that.
- [18:34]
Kyla Scanlon
Gotta hold it to the side.
- [18:35]
Kai Ryssdal
I know. Gotta hold to the side. I know you think I did something else for a living. So your newsletters and your book are, and I say this not to be overly complimentary, they're works of art. They are. No, truly, her most recent newsletter takes you from Ozempic to. I can't even tell you where it went because you have to take notes when you read these things. So buckle up. But here's what I want to know. How do you think about your delivery? How do you think about your published works in anything? Forget Jay Powell imitating Jay Powell on the Instagrams. Right? Because your Instagrams now have in the past couple of three years gotten more sophisticated. Right. They're more serious, less pal y less, you know, all of that, which, you know, I miss. You know, I miss it too, totally. But how do you think about that being more serious? No, just the overall message that you're, you're working on. Right. Because this newsletter, I keep going back to this Ozempic newsletter. It was, it's long, it's detailed, but it's. There's a through line, but you got to work to find it.
- [19:46]
Kyla Scanlon
Yes.
- [19:47]
Kai Ryssdal
Yeah, I say that with great admiration.
- [19:49]
Kyla Scanlon
No, yeah, I like. So I do short form videos and that's very fun, but you have three minutes to get across the news of the day and it's pretty intense and there's not a lot of room to expand. And so I have this newsletter on substack called Kyla's Newsletter.
- [20:06]
Kai Ryssdal
Brand is everything, Babe.
- [20:08]
Kyla Scanlon
And yeah, I like to kind of explore ideas there and tie econ into literature and Philosophy economics is often treated as a very standalone thing about very specific topics. And so I find that if I'm able to intertwine it into like works of C.S. lewis or intertwine it into what we're seeing in pharma, like, that's really interesting for the readers. And I wrote a book in May of 2024 called in this Economy where I tested out a lot of ideas in the newsletter for that book. And I'm actually doing it now again for my second book. So I really like to test what economics can cover and a newsletter is a great way to do that.
- [20:53]
Kai Ryssdal
What's your second book going to be about?
- [20:55]
Kyla Scanlon
So the second book is about the economic ladder. So, so essentially all of these rungs on the ladder of what we think of with our lives is changing. So going to college, getting married, buying a house, getting a job, retiring, all of that is sort of shifting both in terms of politics and technology. And so I want to explore where we've been with all of those key points in our lives and then see where we could be going and have hopefully a hopeful account of what comes next after this big AI shift. Yeah.
- [21:27]
Kai Ryssdal
What's the early verdict? Where do you find hope?
- [21:30]
Kyla Scanlon
Oh, where do I find hope? I mean, I find hope. Like it's going to sound cheesy, but I find hope in a lot of rooms like this. Like I traveled for 40 out of the 52 weeks last year and I was in a bunch of really small towns, big towns with a bunch of amazing people. And you just really find hope at the local level. I think you see these people working on really hard problems within their communities. And I think, you know, when we zoom out, things look kind of big and hairy and scary, but when you zoom in and you see what people are doing in their day to day lives, there's a lot to be hopeful for within that.
- [22:08]
Kai Ryssdal
Yeah, you hear that actually. Yeah, no, I totally agree. Amen. Amen. And it's. And it's people coming to events like this. Jay Powell, the much beleaguered chairman of the Federal Reserve, he is up in May. His chairmanship is. He's also being criminally investigated by the Justice Department. That suit has been. The subpoenas have been quashed on appeal, but they are probably going to be appealed again by the Justice Department. I wonder what you make of this is like a three part question. So I'm going to ask you the first. First, do you think Powell stays on the board of the Fed when his term as chair is done? He's got two more years to go in his board seat.
- [22:52]
Kyla Scanlon
In the recent meeting, he said that he'd be interested in doing so. I mean, I feel bad for Jerome Powell. I think he was kind of coasting towards a pretty soft landing for his own career, in addition to having brought
- [23:09]
Kai Ryssdal
the economy to a soft landing in, like, 24.
- [23:11]
Kyla Scanlon
I know. And then he got. It really just got so messy really quickly. So I think for him, he is such a public servant that I think he'll stay on the board to make sure that everything goes smoothly the next couple of years.
- [23:25]
Kai Ryssdal
Fed independence. Are you worried about it?
- [23:28]
Kyla Scanlon
I think most people are. Yeah. Myself included.
- [23:31]
Kai Ryssdal
Okay.
- [23:33]
Kyla Scanlon
I just think what we've been seeing, like the criminal investigation over the building where Jerome Powell delivered that very powerful video where he was like, this is actually happening because I won't lower interest rates. The fact that Chair Powell would come out and say that he's very composed. You know, he has his tie and he's just like, he's so composed. And if he comes out and says something like that, like, you know, something big is up. So that, that was my main point of concern. I was like, this doesn't seem good. And then you have the appointee that Trump wants, Kevin Warsh, who. I don't know if Kevin has always been consistent in his policy opinions.
- [24:15]
Kai Ryssdal
He has not been consistent. Quiet part out loud right there. Well, I was going to ask you about Warshaw. That was the third part. A couple of questions from the audience that we've gotten. And please keep them coming in. They're sending them to me from backstage. Lots of questions about AI. Not about the bubble, not about the debt, but what it's going to mean because it's coming whether it comes tomorrow or in 10 years. Thoughts?
- [24:38]
Kyla Scanlon
Well, what are your thoughts on it?
- [24:43]
Kai Ryssdal
The hell is that? So, look, number one, I do think it's a bubble. And I think the whole debt thing that you brought up is very real. I've got two kids who are either just. Or about to. Well, she will in three years graduate from college. So I'm worried about that because that's the layer of jobs that are being taken out. But I think we are now getting so much smarter about the risks of AI. I mean, ChatGPT has been out for what, two years, 18 months, something like that. And we were all like, yay. And now we're like, oh, so. So there's, there's a lot of that. At some point, it's going to be our future. I don't believe much like Crypto. I don't believe it's our future yet. That's what I think.
- [25:24]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah. You know, I would agree with that. I think the backlash has been growing primarily because the companies. I mean, the way that the CEOs of the AI company's message, like, you have the CEO of Anthropic come out and be like, this is going to take, you know, 50% of jobs, and it's like. I don't think you should say that.
- [25:44]
Kai Ryssdal
Right, right.
- [25:45]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah. And it's really interesting because it's almost marketed as a religion of sorts, I think, in terms of how some people talk about it. And of course, it's going to create an element of distinct taste. And then also, I think the amount of resources that AI does require, we haven't really thought through what that means. Like, what does it mean to have all of these data centers and the AI is using up so much electricity? Like, what. Who should be in charge and responsible for that?
- [26:14]
Kai Ryssdal
Somebody ought to be in charge. Right. Just, you know, just as an idea.
- [26:17]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah. Just throwing things out.
- [26:19]
Kai Ryssdal
That's right. Housing, yes. Hugely important for wealth building, obviously. Hugely stressed right now. Mortgage rates are back above 6.5%. I saw the other day, 6.55. We have a supply problem with housing, structurally. How big a deal do you think all of that is?
- [26:38]
Kyla Scanlon
I think it's a big deal. Yeah. Housing is sort of the foundation for how people experience the economy. So if they're not able to have stable housing or if it's eating into too much of their income, it's really difficult, especially in a city like la. Like, it's just so expensive and there's no real clear path towards it getting better. So I think that's the toughest part. And I interviewed Wally Edeymo, who is the Deputy Secretary of the treasury in the Biden administration, and that was like the number one thing that his team was working on was figuring out how to solve the supply side of housing. We often think about solving housing through the demand side, so helping people afford mortgages, but if there's not enough homes for them to afford, it just ends up pushing prices up everywhere. So that's the biggest focus for him and. Or was the biggest focus for him. And when I talk to local housing groups, there is a lot of effort to build more homes, but labor costs have gone up. It's actually kind of hard to tap into this sewage system in some areas. So we're sort of. It's like a rock and a hard place with housing, where you have to Update a lot of infrastructure to build more homes too.
- [27:47]
Kai Ryssdal
You're 28, are you gen Z Alpha? What are you?
- [27:50]
Kyla Scanlon
Well, I think technically. Well, what is.
- [27:53]
Kai Ryssdal
I can never keep it straight. Honest to God, I couldn't tell you.
- [27:56]
Kyla Scanlon
So I think it's called a zillennial. Yeah.
- [28:00]
Kai Ryssdal
Here's why I asked. Do you think about buying a house at all?
- [28:04]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
- [28:06]
Kai Ryssdal
Is it a real thing for you?
- [28:07]
Kyla Scanlon
No, not right now.
- [28:08]
Kai Ryssdal
Yeah, that's the question I should ask first.
- [28:12]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah.
- [28:12]
Kai Ryssdal
Right.
- [28:12]
Kyla Scanlon
Not for me.
- [28:13]
Kai Ryssdal
Yeah. Ticket through a couple of other ones here. Stagflation. Yeah, Define it for everybody, please. And then tell us if you're worried about it given the current state of play.
- [28:23]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah. So stagflation is when the economy is stagnant, which is where the stag comes from. And it's also inflationary, so there's a lot of inflation. So that's where the flation comes from. So it's an economy that's not growing, but things are getting more expensive and that's kind of the worst case scenario for an economy because it's very tough for the Federal Reserve to respond to that type of environment because if they raise rates to, to cool down inflation, they're going to cool down the economy even more. And that's not necessarily the situation that you want to be in. So stagflation is a top concern because it's so hard to get out of and it's a huge headache. Yeah.
- [29:03]
Kai Ryssdal
Yeah. All right, I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to throw you a curve ball here and it's, I'm going to ask you to string together a bunch of things and the question goes like this. I wonder what you think about the great American productive engine. And I say that because our government is dysfunctional, infrastructure is breaking down, society is. The body politic is deeply split and those are not conditions for a growing productive national enterprise. And I guess. I wonder what you think of that. That was a downer of a question. I know, I'm sorry.
- [29:44]
Kyla Scanlon
No, I mean all of these have been
- [29:48]
Kai Ryssdal
killing me, man.
- [29:49]
Kyla Scanlon
It's so hard. Yeah. To get on stage and talk about the economy.
- [29:52]
Kai Ryssdal
Right. Look, that's real.
- [29:56]
Kyla Scanlon
It's a lot of tough questions, but yeah, I mean, I think that what we've seen in the economy is it's very hyper financialized, so it's always prone to, you know, going for profits. I'm not answering this correctly.
- [30:09]
Kai Ryssdal
No, no, you're totally right. I wanted you to bring in your newsletter and The Ozempicization of the economy Optimization.
- [30:15]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah.
- [30:15]
Kai Ryssdal
Yeah. Well, go. You go.
- [30:17]
Kyla Scanlon
Okay. Wow. Thank you for. Do you want to answer?
- [30:19]
Kai Ryssdal
No, no, no, no, no, no. I could barely figure the thing out, man. It's a tough read, but it's a good read. So go ahead.
- [30:26]
Kyla Scanlon
Oh, the newsletter.
- [30:27]
Kai Ryssdal
Your newsletter. Yeah.
- [30:28]
Kyla Scanlon
Okay.
- [30:29]
Kai Ryssdal
Ozemposition for optimization. No, look, I'm. I'm a doer, not a reader. That's a whole different podcast.
- [30:35]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah. Yes. So that.
- [30:38]
Kai Ryssdal
You know I love you, right?
- [30:39]
Kyla Scanlon
No, okay. No, I understand. It was a long piece.
- [30:45]
Kai Ryssdal
So the question of. The question I asked 15 minutes ago. What do you make of the great productive enterprise of the United States?
- [30:51]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah, I mean, so I do think that we have a very hyper financialized, over optimized economy, so everything is very much prone to the stock market. So there was a piece in the Financial Times a couple of years ago where the author of the piece said that we have a society that's more focused on shareholder rights rather than civil rights. And I think that is very. Yeah, it's. I can't remember the author's name, but it was a great piece. And I think that's kind of emblematic of the US Productive enterprise is we get pretty stuck in terms of thinking beyond just what generates shareholder returns. And I don't know, it feels like we're not. Like we're able to do some stuff on the local level, but it's proven challenging.
- [31:43]
Kai Ryssdal
What's your degree of concern on a scale of like 10 with that. With how challenging it is right now?
- [31:50]
Kyla Scanlon
I mean, it's more challenging than I'd want it to be. It's a bit frustrating because I don't. It's almost like you don't know where the snake's head begins. As an Ouroboros, you don't know where the snake heads begin and where the tail is. And you can't really figure out exactly what to do to make it more efficient. Like, there are so many little things that are kind of just entrenched in infrastructure and in policy. And you have a lot of candidates that come in with a political platform where they're like, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna make it better. And then you run into all this red tape. Like, mom, Donnie is in New York City with certain things where it's like, oh, it's not as easy as I thought to come in and make things more efficient. And that's very frustrating. It should be a little simpler, but it's easy for me to sit in
- [32:41]
Kai Ryssdal
a Chair and you're an observer. I've got this buddy, he works in finance and he texts me all the time. Did you see this? What do you think about that? Did you see that? I'm like, dude, just leave me alone. Which gets me to this. When you go out for a beer or whatever it is with your friends, what do they talk about? Do they say, kyla, should I, what about this stock? And what do you make of what the Fed just did? And do you get that in your private life? Because I do. It's a nightmare. Truly it is.
- [33:12]
Kyla Scanlon
So he works in finance and he's asking you.
- [33:17]
Kai Ryssdal
It's a little bro y thing. So first of all, lovely man. He can manage everybody else's money. My wife takes care of ours, you know. Yeah. Does that ever happen to you?
- [33:29]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah, I mean a lot of people and this makes sense. They're like, what stock should I buy? And I'm like, I wish I knew, I don't know. I wish I could know what to tell you. But yeah, I, I would say not, not that often.
- [33:41]
Kai Ryssdal
All right, okay, good, that's a good thing. Another one from the audience. Prediction markets.
- [33:47]
Kyla Scanlon
Oh yeah,
- [33:50]
Kai Ryssdal
you in the blue shirt, come on up. I'm just kidding. So, so what do you think? Kalshi Polymarket, all of that, man, I
- [33:59]
Kyla Scanlon
have a tough, sorry, just caveat. I have a tough time with prediction markets. I have been following them since Kalshi first began and I think what they wanted to be made sense. Like event contracts, hedge against the weather, sure, fine. But like now it's evolved into sports betting. Like Kalshi's volume is 90% sports betting. And I'm like, you know, so when you follow this stuff, the legislation of this stuff, Trump CFTC is taking a very hands off approach where he's like, we're just going to let them do whatever they want. And I just think that when you have people gambling on a platform, you as a government have a responsibility to ensure that those people are not endangering themselves. And so I do worry about the role that prediction markets are playing in our lives where they do seem to want to enable us, as the CEO of Kalshi said, to bet on everything, to financialize everything. I feel like that's stepping over a line, it's crossing a line that shouldn't be crossed. You know, we shouldn't bet on everything.
- [35:01]
Kai Ryssdal
Yeah, no, I agree, but thank you. Even though it is 90% sports, there's 10% in there. That's. Is he going to catnap Maduro Is my company going to do this, that, and the other thing? And the companies are way behind on regulation and. Right. It's like insider trading. And so that's a huge challenge. Couple more, and then we have to let you get back to your real life on a gorgeous Sunday afternoon. What is the thing in your area of coverage that keeps you up at night?
- [35:35]
Kyla Scanlon
Oh, honestly, the production markets really stress me out, the sports. But I do a lot of work, like, understanding that stuff and writing about that stuff. And I really worry about this concept that Dimitri Kofinas, who has a podcast called Hidden Forces, he calls it financial nihilism. So people not believing in the economy, choosing not to trust that they have a path forward in life, and then just resorting to sports betting and gambling. So I really worry about that, and then I really worry about our media environment. So things like the manosphere, you know, people rage, baiting. I just. I am very concerned about the effect that that's having on younger people and our ability to have conversations with each other. So those are my two top things
- [36:21]
Kai Ryssdal
on that last one. Do you think we have the ability to fix that?
- [36:26]
Kyla Scanlon
I mean, I think so to a certain extent, but you have to understand why people are doing it. You know, like, why are people tuning into the manosphere? It's because they feel out of control in their own lives. You know, this person is telling them that if they buy this trading course, that their life will be, you know, 10 times better. They'll make a bunch of money, they'll be safe and secure and stable. And that's a very enticing message. And so I think it really underscores, like, this interest in this type of messaging, underscores the trouble that people do have in the economy and in a path forward in life where they feel like they have to resort to these, like, pretty intense shortcuts.
- [37:01]
Kai Ryssdal
You, you are. Do you call yourself a journalist? You're an educator?
- [37:04]
Kyla Scanlon
No, I'm not a journalist. Yeah, I'm an educator. Yeah.
- [37:06]
Kai Ryssdal
Do you think or worry about or consider the influence you have?
- [37:12]
Kyla Scanlon
Do I worry about it? Do you worry about yours?
- [37:15]
Kai Ryssdal
I worry about it every day.
- [37:16]
Kyla Scanlon
In what sense?
- [37:19]
Kai Ryssdal
I worry about accuracy. I worry about bias. I worry about making sure people have the whole story and the truth. And I worry about the reputation of the enterprise behind me. Right. I've got the best job in the shop. I get to sit in front of the microphone every day. But dozens and dozens of people work behind the scenes, and I worry about that as well. And I guess I wonder how you Think about and large audience and blah, blah, blah, but whatever. And I wonder how you think about that. A million people follow you on the socials.
- [37:51]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah, no, it's something I think about a lot. Am I saying the right things? Am I telling people the right information that they need to know? Am I just clogging their feed? Like, am I being genuinely useful? And am I helping them? Like, that's my big goal with all of the work that I do. Like, am I helping people? And so I worry about that the most. Like, something I said might have hurt somebody more than they helped them. Like, if I explained something in a more rage, baity fashion than I meant to. It's delicate dance. Making economics information.
- [38:27]
Kai Ryssdal
Say more about that. Say more about the delicate dance.
- [38:30]
Kyla Scanlon
Yeah, you just. It's such a. It's such a delicate topic. Like, money is so scary. And it's, you know, it's such a complicated relationship that we have with it. And so how do you explain it in a way where people feel like they're not being left behind by the economy, where they feel like they're empowered to participate in the economy, but what does participation actually look like? And so there's just a lot of questions that come up with talking about these things that impact all of us. It's like, well, how should we be ingesting this information? And what should be the action items that people have after they watch a video or listen to an episode, you know? Yeah.
- [39:12]
Kai Ryssdal
Carlos Canlon, ladies and gentlemen. I guess they really are on. She's great, right? Come on. I told you she was great. So Marketplace has been on the air for 37 years this past January, And for 23 of those years, by my count, David Brancaccio has been in the host chair for one or another of our programs for the past 13 years as the host of the Marketplace Morning Report. And before that, for 10 years starting in 1993, as we're about to hear in a minute, as the host of Marketplace. As we play this tape, listen for some familiar things that perhaps you can hear echoes of today. Here we go. Let's hit that tape.
- [40:30]
State Farm Announcer
From los angeles, this is marketplace.
- [40:44]
David Brancaccio
In most places around the country, today marks the official end of summer and the beginning of a new school year. On this Labor Day, a Marketplace special on education reform, a look at positive examples of change.
- [40:56]
Kyla Scanlon
The idea was really to create a movement among college seniors to reform the education system.
- [41:02]
State Farm Announcer
They can produce a product that they can correct.
- [41:07]
Kai Ryssdal
They have the spell check.
- [41:08]
State Farm Announcer
They have the cyrus.
- [41:10]
David Brancaccio
They can be as excellent as they
- [41:11]
State Farm Announcer
want at it, the harder they work at it.
- [41:14]
David Brancaccio
This is Marketplace.
- [41:19]
Kai Ryssdal
So with only a couple of changes that could have aired today, right? I mean, you hear the gong, you hear the. Did you hear the. Those who are old enough will remember the GE theme song, Right? We bring good things to life. Right? They were our founding sponsor. David Brancaccio was quite literally present at the creation of Marketplace. We have an older piece of tape from 1989, the year we started, when David was on staff at KQED up in San Francisco. But that one is actually a little more embarrassing. David. So he didn't play it. But here's the deal. 23 years in the host chair on a daily news program is a grind. So David has wisely, in a move of self preservation, I believe, decided that, that it's time for him to do something else with us. So we're going to talk a little bit about how he got started, where things go from here with Marketplace, and then other things that he's thinking about doing for us. David Brancaccio, ladies and gentlemen. Wait, wait, wait, wait. What, what is that? Walk on music. What? How does, how does he have walk on music? And I'm Jojo the dog face boy. Good grief.
- [42:28]
David Brancaccio
All right.
- [42:29]
Kai Ryssdal
Oh, my Lord. So when I first. So we should give people the chronology here, right? You filed your first story for Marketplace in 1989. You got the host gig in 1993, did that for 10 years. It left for a while to go to the dark side and do television.
- [42:46]
David Brancaccio
Yes, I sold out to pbs.
- [42:49]
Kai Ryssdal
How did that work out for you? Where's Mary? Where's his wife? She's like, how's that mortgage?
- [42:53]
David Brancaccio
Yeah, well, we had to. We had to move to New York, which I think, and we missed California, but it was fun.
- [43:01]
Kai Ryssdal
And then, and then, As I said, 13 years ago, you came back to Marketplace. What, Just to start people off. What is your day like hosting the Marketplace Morning Report here on the, on the West Coast?
- [43:11]
David Brancaccio
Well, actually, you fit into this. Kai Rare is the pal who has the truck, who will actually show up when you have to move that 800 pound sectional sofa. Right. He's a pal who goes one better. When we were thinking about putting me on Morning Report and they said, you gotta get up Eastern Time, 4am out here it's 2am I wheedled another hour out of it. You know, I was concerned. What if I get some laryngitis in the middle of the night? What if I break my arm? What if I get a kidney stone? He volunteered. Kai Rysdal volunteered and said if there's ever any problem he can get into the studio for 3am with 20 minutes notice. He has been my backstop for all these years. No one else would do that. Of course, he's up jogging at that hour anyway, I think that's what it is. But no, It's Pacific Time, 2am Alarm, a bleary first phone call at 2:15 with the morning show producer to talk about what really happened. Based on the plans we put into place yesterday and what's happened overnight, I've read in a bit in those 15 minutes. I've skimmed the Financial Times, the Wall Street Journal, the New York Times, the Washington Post, Politico, the Hill and a bunch of blogs, Speed Reader. And then so that meeting, I get a cup of espresso and then I come into the Studios for a 3am meeting with the gang and we're on at 3:50. And then we do five of those live shows a day. Five a day? Live where?
- [45:00]
Kai Ryssdal
So why do you want out, David? I don't understand.
- [45:03]
David Brancaccio
You know what? I'm totally serious. I mean, please, I'm being as earnest as you're going to hear me get all afternoon. It's the greatest job in the world. We have fun. It has incredible benefits that I work with great people. You're part of the fabric of the news of the day. You're au courant. One of the great things is, although you and I both do special reporting, you and I both do 19 teams meetings a day. The hard part is done when the last broadcast is done. And for me, Pacific time that wraps at 8am Right. So I may have other stuff to do, interviews, get ready for the next day. But like 10 o' clock, I'm in, done, done, and I can go have some fun. So it actually is a wonderful job. Except, you know, they say the largest non military air force in the world is the LAPD's helicopter squadron. They fly over my house in Mid City and if they get me up at 11:30, that means I often don't fall back to sleep. And that means you'll hear me with like three hours of sleep. And I gotta get through the same day. So, you know, all good things have to come to an end. And we'll explain in a minute. I'm not leaving Marketplace. I'm gonna keep turning up like a bad penny. Trust me, we have some cool plans.
- [46:27]
Kai Ryssdal
Since you mentioned your house, I have to ask you about the house in Altadena. Many people here will know that you lost Your house in that fire you and Mary did, rebuilding permitting. How goes it?
- [46:39]
David Brancaccio
We're making a lot of progress. First of all, for Mary and I, we got off the most lightly of anybody in Southern California. Here's the reason. Our children are adults. Some are not living underfoot. We didn't have pets. Yes, it's a sad cocktail party story that we had purchased the house in Altadena two months and one day before the fire. Yeah, that is not your best day at the office. However, the stuff that burned in the house was like my Mr. Coffee Pot, not my espresso machine that costs more than a MacBook Pro with one terabyte of RAM that was on the moving truck headed. Yeah, it's a beautiful, wonderful community. In Altadena we have, yes, 10 houses on the street are all gone. Actually 15 houses on the street are all gone. 10 houses stood. Ours is all gone. But a woman named Ellen, who's our block captain gets us together every six weeks in a Pasadena park and there's still community and it pushes us forward to get rebuilt. If we had had this conversation in December before the holidays, you know, it was kind of long faces in the household. It didn't look good. We didn't have permits. Nine months in we couldn't find a contractor that, you know, aligned with any kind of sense of reality. You know, they're all good hearted, I guess. It costs 400 bucks a square foot to build a house. The day before the fire in the San Gabriel Valley about we were getting quotes in like 950 a square foot. Think about that. Even if you could borrow to get that money, do you want to spend $2 million for a tiny house? Our house is going to be tiny. However, it is a new year. We have our permits. Yes. And we may everybody give us a little good vibe here. We may break ground this week.
- [48:50]
Kai Ryssdal
Ooh, that'd be big. That'd be great. That would be great. There's a bunch of questions from the audience. I do want them to know what you're going to be doing at Marketplace.
- [49:04]
David Brancaccio
I am going to become, I don't know, senior correspondent for Future Effects. So we could have a little poll here. Let's do it in a little bit. What do you think the meta issue that underpins every other issue that ails us in America. Some people would say, and depending on my mood, I would say education in America. Or maybe you would say, you would say campaign finance. You fix that, you fix so many other things. I'm going to argue that our short term Thinking that humans are so good at doing is a key issue that underpins so much of what we're facing. So I want to cover and we've got pretty firm plans in place here to be the person who talks about and explores and gets expertise is a funnel for expertise on decisions we make now that shape our longer term future. It could be personal finance. We're awful at thinking more than two weeks ahead, aren't we? It's called hyperbolic discounting, if there's any economists here. It just looks all so hazy past about April 17, doesn't it? There are interesting remedies for hyperbolic discounting. I may do a fun video series on ways to jog that loose. Some of them are fun if you just sit down with your partner and talk about maybe a trip that you'd like to make in the future, could be next year, could be in five years. That actually primes, there's research about this, primes the brain to then be able to think more about am I saving enough for retirement? So there's a whole bunch of things. So there's that. There's policy stuff that you were just discussing like borrowing against. Well, you know, for instance, what's the new standard deduction for couple filing jointly? I think it's 31,500 right under the big bill, whatever that thing was called. So you cover that story, right? I mean routinely. We've already covered it in the morning show. Kai's talked about that as well. But what's the cost of that? You don't hear enough about that. What's the 10 year cost and the 30 year cost? There's a young guy this tall named Willem Brancaccio, born 13 months ago here in California.
- [51:31]
Kai Ryssdal
Is he this tall?
- [51:31]
David Brancaccio
He's 13 months old, yeah, yeah, it's true. But he's very charismatic, Willem. He has a personality that's this big. Anyway, poor Willem is going to pay for that. And so what are the trade offs? It's also innovation guardrails for AI. So I'm going to be on that beat and I think it's going to be a fun one.
- [51:52]
Kai Ryssdal
So let me actually just roll in what Kylie was talking about, about whether or not we can actually get there. Do you have confidence that at the national level, at the national regulatory level and at the national policy level we're going to be able to do that? Because you're going to tell a bunch of great micro stories about people actually doing this, but Washington is on a different plan.
- [52:08]
David Brancaccio
Yeah. Because the reward system is all Messed up even at the corporate level. So the other day Kai's on the radio talking about the administration has this intention of allowing publicly held corporations to only report twice a year with their results. Right. Instead of four times a year. And you could have a knee jerk reaction to that going, oh, what a sop to corporate America. You know, it's deregulation. I think that done right there are the seeds of something interesting built into that.
- [52:37]
Kai Ryssdal
Seriously.
- [52:39]
David Brancaccio
Yeah, I do, I do.
- [52:40]
Kai Ryssdal
Because defend yourself, sir.
- [52:45]
David Brancaccio
I'm all for transparency and God knows what they would do if they only had to report every six months.
- [52:50]
Kai Ryssdal
That's kind of the point.
- [52:51]
David Brancaccio
However, we also get on them, the captains of industry for managing for that
- [52:57]
Kai Ryssdal
every 90 years I would actually submit, Sorry, this is an unscripted part of this program. I actually think it's Wall street analysts and them setting the expectations that then obliges corporations to manage to that number. Because if you miss by a penny, it's, you know, Katie, bar the door. It's all terrible.
- [53:13]
David Brancaccio
Katie by the door, you and I have fun together. There'll be a company like Nvidia that the expectations have been sent astronomically through the roof and they deliver even more than that. And then the stock goes down hard for a day. Right. It is a completely bizarre game of expectations. But we have to start doing something now. You can argue with this beat of mine, future effects, that maybe the future is a privilege and I'm going to weigh in on that with some coverage. The future is a privilege if you're living hand to mouth. If you're like so many families in America living paycheck to paycheck. Yeah, that's nice for the guy to come on the radio and talk about saving more for retirement or that's nice talking about ways that we should be having a global discussion at an agency like the International Atomic Energy Agency for AI. But if you're worried about getting food on the table, you may not have the luxury to focus on the beat. So that will be part of what I'm trying to do. I don't know Kai, if you knew this, you know this because I've been going on about this. This wasn't.
- [54:21]
Kai Ryssdal
Dame and I have known each other
- [54:22]
David Brancaccio
for a very long time. Very long time. This wasn't my idea. It is definitely my idea to do this because I've been excited about it. But the idea of the after effects beat was actually how many people remember the name of the famous author, social critic and satirist, Kurt Vonnegut. So I was super Lucky. I got the last big TV interview with Kurt Vonnegut before he passed away at the age of 83. And he was magnificent. I just kind of directed traffic briefly. I wasn't magnificent. But Colonel Vonnegut's there, I'm here, and he looks at me and he says, what no country. Gravely voice. What no country's ever had is a Secretary of the Future, like at the cabinet level. And he said, there are no plans for our children and our grandchildren. And so was he speaking metaphorically? Was he speaking literally? Turns out we found on Marketplace Morning Report a country that has a Secretary of the Future. Shout out a guess of what country it might have been, even if you don't know the actual answer. China, Kuwait, Nordic country, right? Sweden. Sweden. I mean, just answer Sweden or Denmark or Norway for any of those. And we called her. She's not called Secretary of the Future with some turgid European style handle.
- [55:48]
Kai Ryssdal
But she said, direct your letters of complaint too.
- [55:50]
David Brancaccio
Yeah. And it was during a presidential election. We was like, well, maybe, you know, it would be nice if there was a candidate who embraced the. This idea. And she says to us on tape and we used it, she said, I would love America to have a Secretary of the Future. I feel so lonely now. Corporations, until about 10 minutes ago, had secretaries of the future, Chief Sustainability officers. Right? Now, that's not just the environment. Environment's an important part of that, but it's. Are we doing anything that comes back to bite us, blows up in our face and ruins everything for all of us in the future? But if you're managing for three months, you don't really care. Chief Sustainability officers are often greenwashing, but if they have the ear of the CEO, they can do good things. So I guess me and the boss and the bosses at Marketplace are appointing me kind of the secretary.
- [56:48]
Kai Ryssdal
So how am I going to. I'm going to read a story introduction, and it's going to say, marketplaces correspondent for the Future. What are we gonna call you?
- [56:55]
David Brancaccio
I don't know. We're gonna keep working on it. It's not secret of the future. It's probably Future Effects Correspondent or something like that.
- [57:01]
Kai Ryssdal
Fair enough. This is a great actually listener question to. To the point of all of these things that you're talking about. The reward system is messed up. So what level of economic pain is necessary? Is there a level of economic pain necessary to make this stuff happen in real life?
- [57:18]
David Brancaccio
Yeah. Do we have to have a full collapse of the system? And it's like Cormac McCarthy novel the Road to get people to say we should have had a V8 and had a secretary of the future. Do you have faith in humanity or not? You asked earlier what gives you optimism, and I would have had a similar answer. It's social capital like this on a good Sunday, where it's beautiful outside and you have mountains and oceans beckoning. You're here to chew on some topics about the economy. That gives me some hope. I also know that pendulums swing. I also talk to a lot of younger adults in my line of work. And also we have three younger adults who are offspring. And they are not uniformly upbeat at all times about the state of the world, but they also are preparing themselves for a time when the time horizon is longer than it seems to be now. And our job isn't to tell you what the choices should be. Our job is to show you the range of policy possibilities, the ways people are thinking about this. One of the first projects under this new aegis that we're really excited about. Haven't done the reporting on this yet, just some basic research. It might be called Robots Ate My Taxes.
- [58:46]
Kai Ryssdal
No, you have to know he's done two stories, two series before, right? Robots Ate My Job. And what was the other one?
- [58:51]
David Brancaccio
Robot Proof Jobs or something like that? Yeah, it was, but that was about technological unemployment before. We talked about large language models. But Robots Ate My Taxes. You know how you and I. How many stories have you and I done about the demographic challenges? Right? As our population ages, on average, more people drawing social services later in life, fewer younger people coming on board, overlay restrictions at the border and you have, you know, it's going to turn us into Japan here. So that is a big issue. It is possible that equivalent in scale to that issue is during this disruptive period where AI comes on board and a lot of people get thrown out of work, at least for now, they're not going to pay taxes. Robots don't pay taxes. So when Jack Dorsey lays off 40 to 50% of his people the other day he said it was AI. I don't know. What do you think everybody's saying? AI. Assuming just for a moment, take him at his word that it was AI. If they don't get jobs, they're not going to pay income tax. And they're actually tech companies sweating this because they're seeing this before other people are seeing this. And so what does that mean for the ability to run a country if the machines are doing a lot of the work now, counter argument, because we try to be open and evoke many sides to any of these issues. I'm not an advocate. The counter argument is super empowered by artificial intelligence. Kai and I are going to be doing 19 radio shows at once and. Yeah, I know. And we're going to be paid so much that we're going to be paying a lot of income tax. Right. That's the counter argument to this. And, you know, in the fullness of time, maybe, but in the fullness of time, I'll be dead. And so I just think it's,
- [60:51]
LifeLock Announcer
I
- [60:51]
David Brancaccio
think a pretty good example of something people aren't talking about enough that we could start chewing on.
- [60:57]
Kai Ryssdal
When do you start?
- [61:00]
David Brancaccio
Any minute now. No, I am.
- [61:02]
Kai Ryssdal
You got another two weeks, right?
- [61:03]
David Brancaccio
It's another two weeks. This week is prep because we've got a bunch of, I think, fun coverage for the week after next. I'll be back hosting the week after next all those shows Monday through Friday starting April 6th. I did this thing. An opportunity landed in my lap. You would have said yes, too. A couple buddies were driving a good stretch of highway of Route 66, which turns 100 years old this year. It's the mother road and, you know, it's full of all the kitsch and the T shirts. And we had some fun. We were like, what do you. What mode of conveyance do you use to drive 66 in 2026? So we tried like every one. So I took Metrorail Expo Line to Santa Monica Pierce to start to get my public transit cred out there. We took a Waymo, but you can't take it very far. We also took a Waymo because of the three people that did this with me, two other people. One of them is the former CEO of Waymo. So he's like, let's do Waymo. I'm like, I know why you said that to his. This is the part where Kai Rysdal is going to be jealous.
- [62:10]
Kai Ryssdal
What's that?
- [62:11]
David Brancaccio
He owns a 1966 Oldsmobile 442.
- [62:14]
Kai Ryssdal
Oh, I used to have one of those. I had a 442. It was red with a white top. Red, yeah.
- [62:20]
David Brancaccio
This one was green. And he had it primo, perfectly tuned. But hate to tell you, don't have to tell you. It's a hydrocarbon and carbon spewing device. When you turn the key, all of OPEC stands up and applauds.
- [62:32]
Kai Ryssdal
That's exactly right.
- [62:33]
David Brancaccio
So, you know, just to be respectful, we only took it up the pasadena freeway to 66. We got my Mary's Chevy Volt and had enough electric. Only to get to San Bernardino. And then same guy, Waymo guy is now on the board at Rivian. He has a 20, 26 Rivian, which is sweet, almost autonomous. Not quite. And so he took that for most. But what's the question? Other than me, like enjoying some. Some diners on the side of the road. The idea is you can see. I was curious if you could see. And I did see in the end, over just four days, we get as far as Albuquerque and then our mutual boss said, get back here. He doesn't even talk that way, but
- [63:16]
Kai Ryssdal
that's how he kind of did to me anyway.
- [63:18]
David Brancaccio
Is that how he talks to you, Neil? God bless him, he's the best. He did sign off on this. So no. Economists talk about the K shaped economy, right? It's a bit of a strange metaphor on the radio, but he. If you think of a letter K, there's none on the screen. Marketplace there.
- [63:33]
Kai Ryssdal
Jesus, man. So wait, big fat letters.
- [63:36]
David Brancaccio
Big fat letters. So here finally a visual help with the metaphor. It's got a leg that goes up toward the sky for some Americans. It's got the leg that comes down hard for many Americans. You can see that contradiction play out on the road. And some of that's going to air next week. Another quick thing that I think is fun and it's my gift to you because I want you to do the same thing. Cost us nothing. Which is great in this year where public broadcasting is out of favor in high places and we have to do things economically. I'm glad you heard about that. That's good. We're doing our best. I have the best job in the world. I don't want to stop getting up at 2am but it does not make one an ideal husband to go to bed at 5:30pm every night. But if I could do something else, ask yourselves this. Is there a business model that would just be your bliss? So I'm doing a very simple series four pieces called Business Envy. These are real businesses where I think I would just like this if I didn't have the best job in the world. Now, what are alternatives? One of them is a company in Austin where you bring them. The classic car of your choice could be that old and they make it an EV and they make it safe. I totally could do that. At least I could take the greasy parts out. I don't know about putting the EV in. There is a business in my home state of Maine. Some of you may have seen this online. Yes, I am a amateur rocketeer. I make big rockets taller Than Kai and I launch them in the desert and nobody gets hurt.
- [65:29]
Kai Ryssdal
Like thousands of feet up.
- [65:30]
David Brancaccio
Yeah, they go up. It's really fun. And among the things I did during COVID there's a rocket company that hoists decent sized payrolls and payloads into space. And their engine is non toxic. Non toxic rocket engines. I could totally help them with that. Briefly, another one is I mentioned the coffee, right? Coffee is very important to a morning person. I bet you did the mornings. Which he did without coffee, right?
- [65:58]
Kai Ryssdal
Oh no, I had coffee.
- [65:59]
David Brancaccio
Okay, I had coffee. Well, I have coffee. Although I tapered down about four years ago, no one talked to me. I wasn't hauled into HR over this, but I just felt, just felt that on a full cup of coffee at 3am Pacific that I thought I was really interesting and I thought I was really funny. And so now I'm at quarter. I'm quarter Caf. So the greatest coffee in America is in San Francisco. It's called Graffeo's. It almost failed when Luciano got old. The heir to the Levi's fortune just bought it. I could help. And lastly, a co op here in la, you don't get paid. You volunteer. Where if your bike is broken, your bicycle, you bring it in. They will have every tool for five bucks an hour or whatever you can pay. They will teach you to fix your bike. They will not fix your bike for you. I totally could do that. So think about that as the week goes on. What are your business envies? Because hopefully all of us live to a point where we will get a second and third act. And I think it's sort of fun to fantasize about that. I'll be doing it in public.
- [67:15]
Kai Ryssdal
Ladies and gentlemen, David Bronkachen.
- [67:19]
David Brancaccio
Thank you. Spectacular.
- [67:36]
Kai Ryssdal
Now you get why he's been on the air for 25 years in Marketplace, right? That's. That's how we do what we do. I. In the meanwhile, I've got some personal news. I am pivoting to video. Here you go. All right, here we are. Sunday afternoon in the shed. Couple of things. First of all, I should tell you I'm gonna record this and then I might post it, or I might not, because somebody's gonna hear what I have to say and they're gonna say, oh my God, you're not being objective, you're not being impartial, you're not being journalistic. And as I think you've heard me say a time or two on the radio, facts matter. So actually now, even as I'm saying this, I'm Gonna post it. But here we go. Two things. Number one, that post the President made this morning, actually, it's not a post. It was a memo that he sent to the Norwegian Prime Minister saying that because you didn't give me the Nobel Peace Prize, that's why I'm going after Greenland. Setting aside for a minute the fact that the Norwegian government doesn't issue the Peace Prize, that note, which you should read, is untethered from reality. And the thing you have to know and the thing that people are going to yell at me about is this. It's really important to remember and to say out loud that Republicans in Congress are okay with this. That's just fact. It's not slanted. It's not political. It's just fact. And I told you guys I was going to say the things that needed to be said. So that's the big thing. Here's the other thing, though. Wednesday, Lisa Cook's hearing in front of the Supreme Court happens, right? Lisa Cook, the Fed governor who the President is trying to fire. Okay. AP reported this morning that Jay Powell, the chairman of the board of the Federal Reserve, Chairman of the Board of Governors, is going to be in the Supreme Court for that hearing. That's big. That is very, very big. Powell clearly is out of S to give. Right? Here's my timestamp. I think it's 50, 50 that because he knows Powell is going to go, the President decides to show up.
- [69:45]
LifeLock Announcer
I don't know.
- [69:46]
Kai Ryssdal
We'll see. All right, I was wrong about the president bit, but I think the rest of that holds up pretty well. I work, as you can see in the backdrop of that thing, perhaps in a tiny shed attached to the garage in the back of my house. It is a workspace. It's a podcast and radio recording studio. And it is now the backdrop for my new side hustle as a digital content creator, which, by the way, is very hard to do. But why? Why am I doing this? I'm doing this because I think these are dangerous times. I think the economy is under threat in a lot of ways that we know about, in a lot of ways that perhaps we haven't thought about. So I've taken to the shed to talk about some of those things, and I'm doing it with three guidelines, three things I'm not going to compromise on. I'm not going to compromise on national security. I'm a veteran of the United States Navy and the United States Foreign Service. And you. Thank you. And you don't have to squint too hard to see the connection between national security and our economic security as we stand here at 3:20 in the afternoon. Futures trading has just opened and Brent North Sea crude, the global benchmark, opens today at $112.57 a barrel. Four weeks and two days ago it was like 63, 65. So that's the first thing I'm not going to compromise on. The second thing I won't compromise on is the economy and economic fact. I am not an economist, but I have played one on the radio for 25 years, so I know what I'm talking about. So when I tell you that the President of the United States doesn't understand this economy, that's not opinion, it's fact. And if you don't believe me, go ask him how tariffs work. I'll wait. Right. And then the final thing I'm not going to compromise on is democracy. I think it's self evident. But if you want, if you need a marketplace angle, here it is. The institutions of this economy depend on the institutions of this democracy. The rule of law, transparency, fair regulation, the right of recourse when wrong. You know the list as well as I do and you also know of the challenges they face in this moment. So where does that leave us? Look, I know that it's hard to get away from the news and that it can be overwhelming and paralyzing. The war continues. The Washington Post reported on Friday that the Trump administration is planning for weeks of ground war in Iran. And the economy, whether we like it or not, is going to be along for the ride. But here's what I Knowing matters. Paying attention to the work that Kyla and David and thousands of other people are doing to keep us informed matters. Saying out loud, in a representative democracy, the things that need to be said out loud matters. I thank you for your time this afternoon.
- [73:40]
State Farm Announcer
What happens when your kid's childhood becomes your business? I'm Reema Khres and this week on this Is Uncomfortable. I we step inside the world of family influencers, where childhood turns into content and content turns into income. What does it do to the kids at the center of it all? And what does it reveal about modern motherhood?
- [73:59]
Kyla Scanlon
I think part of the reason that mom influencers and family vloggers are so popular in the United States specifically is because American motherhood is so lonely.
- [74:09]
State Farm Announcer
Be sure to listen to this Is Uncomfortable. Wherever you get your podcasts,