Skepticism and a civics lesson from SCOTUS

Summary

Marketplace Morning Report

Episode: "Skepticism and a Civics Lesson from SCOTUS"

Date: November 6, 2025
Host: David Brancaccio

---

Overview

This episode covers two major issues impacting the U.S. today:

1. The Supreme Court's scrutiny of presidential authority on reciprocal tariffs and its implications for the separation of powers and emergency powers in trade policy.
2. The real-world impact of the government shutdown on food aid, specifically interruptions to SNAP (food stamps) benefits and the strain placed on local food banks.

The show features perspectives from legal experts, justices, government officials, and those directly affected by policy decisions, providing listeners with both a civics lesson and a snapshot of economic hardship.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Supreme Court Hearings on Trump’s Reciprocal Tariffs

[01:03–05:36]

• Main Issue: Whether presidents can use decades-old emergency powers to unilaterally overhaul trade policy—including raising tariffs—without Congressional approval.
• Expert Guest: Jess Bravin, Supreme Court correspondent for The Wall Street Journal.

Supreme Court Skepticism

• Justices were notably skeptical of the administration’s argument that the President can use emergency powers to impose tariffs for diplomatic leverage, arguing instead that taxation is strictly a Congressional power.
  • Jess Bravin: “It was interesting to hear them talk about it because, you know, we've been going for months with a bunch of unexplained emergency orders that have largely gone the administration's way. So to hear the justices grilling Solicitor General John Sauer... was a reminder that the Supreme Court does take these cases one by one, and it's not a slam dunk even for a president who has gotten so far pretty much everything he's asked for.” [01:36]

Highlights from the Courtroom

• Chief Justice John Roberts:
  • “The vehicle is imposition of taxes on Americans, and that has always been the core power of Congress.” [02:23]
• Justice Sonia Sotomayor:
  • “I just don't understand this argument. It's not an article. It's a congressional power, not a presidential power to tax. And you want to say tariffs are not taxes, but that's exactly what they are.” [02:31]
• David Brancaccio (paraphrasing): “We learn in civics class that Congress has the taxing power in America.” [02:44]

Administration’s Position Versus Court’s Take

• The administration tried to frame tariffs as a foreign policy tool, not a revenue measure—an argument the justices did not accept.
  • Jess Bravin: “There may be all kinds of things that the President can do, like perhaps a complete trade embargo, but, you know, taxes are different because they are about raising revenue. John Sauer insisted that raising revenue was not the point of these tariffs.” [02:51]

Executive Power Versus Congressional Authority

• Some justices expressed concern about weakening presidential powers in foreign affairs, particularly in situations requiring quick, unilateral action (e.g., tariffs on India to influence the Russia-Ukraine war).
  • David Brancaccio (to Bravin, referencing Kavanaugh): “How can you tie the president's hands?” [03:43]
  • Jess Bravin: “One thing that the government stressed... was that the President should have greater deference from the courts when it comes to foreign affairs... And Kavanaugh was... very, very sympathetic to the President's needs.” [03:52]

The Structural Issues at Stake

• Justice Neil Gorsuch:
  • “Congress, as a practical matter, can't get this power back once it's handed it over the President. It's a one way ratchet toward the gradual but continual accretion of power in the executive branch and away from the people's elected representatives.” [04:33]
• Jess Bravin: “[Justice Gorsuch was] talking about a kind of structural reality. If... Congress disagrees... it takes a 2/3 vote of each house because we assume the president would veto... So that is the ratchet that Justice Gorsuch is talking about, that Congress can delegate its power much more easily [than] they can recover it.” [04:56]

---

2. Government Shutdown and Fallout for Food Aid

[07:00–08:56]

• Current Situation: The Trump administration warns of major air travel disruptions due to the ongoing government shutdown, while simultaneously working under court order to pay some food stamp (SNAP) benefits.
• Field Report: Nova Safo reports from a Fresno, California food bank.

Escalating Need at Food Banks

• Hundreds of people are lining up, many for the first time, due to interrupted SNAP benefits.
  • Nova Safo: “The line to get into the food bank is hundreds of people long, snaking along the sidewalk.” [07:24]
• Stephanie Wininger, Food Bank Coordinator:
  • “When I got here this morning at 7, the line was already wrapped around the corner.” [07:40]
• The supply cannot meet demand—some will leave empty-handed.

Personal Stories

• Brandon Holm, self-employed tattoo artist:
  • “We're only able to get 15 items today. I don't know how long that 15 items is going to last and then I don't know when the SNAP benefits are actually going to come through. And so I'm going to end up having to look for more food resources.” [08:08]
• Maria Eva Romero (81) and Felipa Cruz (73):
  • “They say they'll go back to picking produce in the fields to make ends meet” if SNAP remains cut off. [08:23]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Chief Justice Roberts: “The vehicle is imposition of taxes on Americans, and that has always been the core power of Congress.” [02:23]
• Justice Sotomayor: “You want to say tariffs are not taxes, but that's exactly what they are.” [02:31]
• Justice Gorsuch: “It's a one way ratchet toward the gradual but continual accretion of power in the executive branch and away from the people's elected representatives.” [04:33]
• Jess Bravin (on the administration’s arguments): “...Trying to characterize tariffs as a diplomatic measure, a foreign policy measure... but, you know, taxes are different because they are about raising revenue.” [02:51]
• Brandon Holm (food bank recipient): “We're only able to get 15 items today. I don't know how long that 15 items is going to last...” [08:08]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:03] - Supreme Court hears challenge to Trump’s use of tariffs and executive emergency powers
• [01:36–02:44] - Justices express skepticism; focus on Congressional power to tax
• [03:35–04:56] - Arguments for and against broad presidential authority in trade/foreign affairs
• [07:00] - Shutdown’s impact on SNAP/food banks reported from Fresno, CA
• [08:08] - Personal stories from SNAP recipients and food bank visitors

---

Conclusion

In less than ten minutes, this episode gives listeners a crash course in constitutional civics, highlighting a rare, public display of Supreme Court skepticism toward unchecked executive power, and a sobering look at how high-level government gridlock translates directly into hardship on the ground—particularly for the vulnerable relying on food aid.

Transcript

[Dell PC Advertiser]

Introducing your new Dell PC with the Intel Core Ultra processor. It helps you handle a lot, even when your holiday to do list gets to be a lot like organizing your holiday shopping and searching for great holiday deals and customer questions and customers requesting custom things. Plus planning the perfect holiday dinner for vegans, vegetarians, pescatarians and Uncle Mike's carnivore diet. Luckily you can get a PC with all day battery life to help you get it all done. That's the power of a Dell PC with Intel inside, backed by Dell's price match guarantee. Get yours [e-mail] holiday terms and conditions apply. See dell.com for details.

[Wayfair Advertiser]

Big News Wayfair's Black Friday sale is here early Right now at Wayfair, get up to 70% off everything you need for the season ahead. Save on kitchen and dining, bedroom furniture and mattresses, holiday decor, and way more. Now is the time to score big, from seasonal finds to favorites you'll use all year long. Plus with Wayfair, enjoy fast and easy shipping with delivery in time for the holidays. Save up to 70% off early Black Friday deals. Shop [e-mail] Wayfair Every style, every home.

[David Brancaccio]

President Trump's reciprocal tariffs get a rough ride in the highest of courts I'm David Brancaccio in Los Angeles. U.S. supreme Court justices yesterday heard the arguments and asked questions about whether an emergency powers law from back when disco was first hitting the charts can be used by a president to overhaul international trade and raise taxes without getting Congress to go along. I spoke this morning with Jess Bravin, Supreme Court correspondent for the Wall Street Journal, who listened to Word yesterday. I asked him if justices were buying what the administration was selling.

[Jess Bravin]

No, they weren't. And it was interesting to hear them talk about it because, you know, we've been going for months with a bunch of unexplained emergency orders that have largely gone the administration's way. So to hear the justices grilling Solicitor General John Sauer and really having skeptical questions about the administration's position was a reminder that the Supreme Court does take these cases one by one, and it's not a slam dunk even for a president who has gotten so far pretty much everything he's asked for.

[David Brancaccio]

All right, so so many issues on the table during that session. Let's listen to two justices, the chief justice as well as Justice Sotomayor on a similar subject. Here's John Roberts.

[Supreme Court Justices]

The vehicle is imposition of taxes on Americans, and that has always been the.

[David Brancaccio]

Core power of Congress and Sotomayor I.

[Supreme Court Justices]

Just don't understand this argument. It's not an article. It's a congressional power, not a presidential power to tax. And you want to say tariffs are not taxes, but that's exactly what they are.

[David Brancaccio]

Now, Jess, this is important, right, because we learn in civics class that Congress has the taxing power in America.

[Jess Bravin]

You know, the most telling thing for the administration's chances was trying to characterize tariffs as a diplomatic measure, a foreign policy measure to pressure other countries to see things Washington's way. But the Supreme Court accepted the challenger's view that taxes are different. There may be all kinds of things that the President can do, like perhaps a complete trade embargo, but, you know, taxes are different because they are about raising revenue. John Sauer insisted that raising revenue was not the point of these tariffs.

[David Brancaccio]

All right, but you do have moments where justices express concern about taking away this power from the White House. Here's Brett Kavanaugh.

[Jess Bravin]

You know, think about India right now. The tariff on India, right, That's designed to help settle the Russia, Ukraine war.

[David Brancaccio]

So, you know, an intense international issue. How can you tie the President's hands? Seems to be the thrust of that line of inquiry.

[Jess Bravin]

Well, that's true. And that is a point that the court has to explore. And there is no doubt that tariffs are a tool the President has. And one thing that the government stressed, the Solicitor General stressed, was that the President should have greater deference from the courts when it comes to foreign affairs, which is one of the things that the President typically takes the lead on. And courts are often reluctant to second guess. And Kavanaugh was, as you said, very, very sympathetic to the President's needs. Perhaps he will agree with President Trump on this one.

[David Brancaccio]

All right. And this was not just about tariffs, about trade policy or about taxation. Let's listen to Justice Neil Gorsuch.

[Supreme Court Justices]

Congress, as a practical matter, can't get this power back once it's handed it over the President. It's a one way ratchet toward the gradual but continual accretion of power in the executive branch and away from the people's elected representatives.

[David Brancaccio]

I mean, at the heart of this, that's why so many people are paying attention. Not just to figure out, you know, how much going to cost to import something. Right.

[Jess Bravin]

Well, that is right, because, you know, we know that President Trump has a very expansive view of his own powers. But leaving Trump even out of it, Justice Gorsuch was talking about a kind of structural reality. If the Congress disagrees with the way that the President is operating and wants to say cancel the emergency that has been declared because the law allows Congress to do that. It takes a 2/3 vote of each house because we assume the president would veto the initial resolution of disapproval. So that is the ratchet that Justice Gorsuch is talking about, that Congress can delegate its power much more easily. They can recover it.

[David Brancaccio]

Jess Braven, Supreme Court correspondent for the Wall Street Journal, thank you very much.

[Jess Bravin]

Hey, my pleasure, David.

[David Brancaccio]

Now, if you have a flight starting tomorrow, note the Trump administration is now warning they'll be cutting flights by 10% at many airports to ease congestion if the government is still shut down. With air traffic control towers short staffed, keep your airline's app in the foreground. Right.

[Jess Bravin]

Alrighty.

[O'Reilly Auto Parts Advertiser]

Auto parts Pueda yudarta Revizar to lose. Check engine. Lose ABS or lose the manterimiento con O'Reilly veriskan el servicio es gratis y resiviracion. Informe consoluciones verificadas por tecnicos maestro certificados ase sinesita sayuda or Reilly autofarz te pomendar unta pregunta por O'Reilly veriscan oy.

[Jess Bravin]

Nismo O'Reilly Auto Parts.

[VRBO Advertiser]

Did you know you can opt out of winter with VRBO? Save up to $1,500 for booking a month long stay with thousands of sunny homes. Why subject yourself to the cold? Just filter your search by monthly stays and save up to $1,500. Book [e-mail].

[David Brancaccio]

The Trump administration says it is working to comply with a court order to pay some food stamp benefits as soon as it can despite the current government shutdown. With these snap benefits interrupted, you can now see the predicted effects at food banks in Texas, Colorado, Utah and beyond. Marketplaces. Novasafo visited a food aid distribution operation in Fresno, California's Agricult.

[Novasafo]

The line to get into the food bank is hundreds of people long snaking along the sidewalk.

[VRBO Advertiser]

Good morning.

[Amy Scott]

Thank you.

[Novasafo]

You're welcome.

[Supreme Court Justices]

Good morning.

[Novasafo]

Stephanie Wininger, coordinator with the Central California Food bank, is passing out laminated cards with numbers on them. It's a first come, first served system.

[Jess Bravin]

When I got here this morning at 7, the line was already wrapped around the corner.

[Amy Scott]

Usually it wouldn't even hit the corner yet before the shutdown.

[Novasafo]

Within five minutes, she's run out of cards to give out. There are at least 100 more people in line. It's unclear whether they'll get in to get food. Among those who did make it in is 39 year old Brandon Holm. He says he's a self employed tattoo artist and depends on snap. And he's at the food bank for the first time.

[Brandon Holm]

We're only able to get 15 items today. I don't know how long that 15 items is going to last and then I don't know when the SNAP benefits are actually going to come through. And so I'm going to end up having to look for more food resources.

[Novasafo]

Sitting nearby, sipping coffee and waiting for their turn to pick up food are Maria Eva Romero and Felipa Cruz. They're 81 and 73, respectively. They say they're out of food and here because they didn't get their SNAP benefits. I asked them what they'll do if SNAP remains cut off for weeks. They say they'll go back to picking produce in the fields to make ends meet. In Fresno, California, I'm novasafo for Marketplace.

[David Brancaccio]

And in Los Angeles, I'm David Brancaccio. You're listening to the Marketplace Morning report from apm, American Public Media.

[Amy Scott]

Imagine a future where chocolate and coffee are rare and expensive, where cheap nutritional staples like corn and wheat are threatened. Sounds unpleasant, doesn't it? Well, we could be heading there if we don't recognize that the climate crisis is also a food crisis.

[Supreme Court Justices]

I've seen yields drop because of drought.

[David Brancaccio]

And believe me, boy, have I seen them drop. We have had dry spells that have lasted years.

[Amy Scott]

I'm Amy Scott. This season on How We Survive. We investigate how the climate crisis is threatening our most vital food systems and how scientists are racing to develop alternatives that will shape the future of food. Listen to this season of How We Survive on your favorite podcast. Apparently.