MarTech Podcast: “Don’t Trust When a Brand Tells You Their Podcast is ‘Working’”

Episode Date: April 2, 2026
Host: Benjamin Shapiro
Guest: Cody Goff (Podcast Growth Strategist, NerdWallet)

Episode Overview

In this episode, Benjamin Shapiro dives deep into the often-misunderstood world of podcast performance metrics with guest Cody Goff, a podcast growth strategist and operator with experience scaling award-winning shows for major brands. Together, they challenge the notion that top-level metrics like downloads are reliable indicators of a podcast’s success. The conversation explores what truly drives meaningful, sustainable, and organic growth in podcasting—tailored to each show's business goals.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Weakness of “Downloads” as a Core Metric

• Downloads as a Vanity Metric:
  • Cody immediately calls out downloads as the obvious—and problematic—metric brands cite to claim a podcast is "working."
    • Quote:

      “The easy answer is downloads. I’m supposed to say downloads, aren’t I?” — Cody Goff [03:02]

    • Downloads are easy to game and easy to misunderstand.
    • They should not be entirely dismissed but are often overblown:

      “They’re not useless. I think it’s overblown. Some people will be like, the only thing that matters is completion rate. And it’s like, no, completion rate doesn’t matter if you have six listeners.” — Cody Goff [03:09]

• Context is Everything:
  • The importance or irrelevance of downloads depends on the business model:
    • For ad-funded/entertainment podcasts, reach and volume matter, as monetization is based on impressions.
    • For niche or B2B podcasts, credibility and the depth of message consumed are more critical:

      “If you’re a B2B marketing podcast, you need people to listen to you to get credibility. So you need reach, frequency and depth of message. And those are different metrics.” — Benjamin Shapiro [03:33]

  • Analogy: Judging a website by ad impressions or page loads ignores what really matters (cart completions/conversions).

2. Interpreting Completion Rate, Reach, and Engagement

• Nuanced Completion Rate:
  • Completion rate is useful, but not a silver bullet:
    • Some major producers dismiss it entirely; if a listener spends 30 minutes on an hour-long episode, that's still substantial engagement.

      “What if they only listen to half your episode? … It depends how long the episode is. If it’s half of an hour long episode, they sat with you for half an hour. That’s pretty good. They learned something. They know who you are, they think you’re smart. Exactly.” — Shapiro & Goff [04:39]

• Value of Partial Consumption:
  • Engagement can be measured across frequency and platforms. Cody references high TikTok view counts for podcast clips as an example.
    • Quote:

      “I get 750,000 views on that TikTok. I think it’s up to 850 now. So like 850,000 like 10 second clips or whatever were consumed. That’s who I got in front of. Would I rather have them sit down and watch an hour and ten minute episode about beer? Like yes. But like the fact is I got in front of them.” — Cody Goff [04:48]

• Tailoring Metrics to Business Goals:
  • For media companies:
    • Volume, reach, “body count” (raw audience numbers) matter most.
  • For services/B2B:
    • Depth of message, authority, and impact among a select group of listeners is critical.
  • Shapiro summarizes:

    “If you’re using your podcast to try to sell… five figure services business, you want people to consume your content. It doesn’t matter how infrequently. You want the depth of message and the thought leadership and the knowledge sharing.” — Benjamin Shapiro [05:29]

3. The “Download Olympics” and the Real Stakes

• Don’t Fall into Ego Traps:
  • Both hosts joke candidly about how downloads become a “dick measuring contest”—a superficial competition that doesn’t serve a strategic purpose.
    • Quote:

      “Excuse my language: downloads, it’s a dick measuring contest. It’s my podcast. I could say you don’t have to.” — Benjamin Shapiro [05:29]

  • The focus should be on actionable and relevant metrics, not those measured for bragging rights.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Downloads vs. Actual Value:

  “They’re not useless… but completion rate doesn’t matter if you have six listeners.” — Cody Goff [03:09]

• On Short-form vs. Long-form Engagement:

  “Would I rather have them sit down and watch an hour and ten-minute episode about beer? Like yes. But like the fact is I got in front of them.” — Cody Goff [04:48]

• On the Ego Trap of Metrics:

  “Downloads—it’s a dick measuring contest.” — Benjamin Shapiro [05:29]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 02:57 — Shapiro poses the central question: Which podcast metric brands cite that you should not trust.
• 03:02–03:33 — Why "downloads" is an easy answer but not truly meaningful.
• 03:33–04:24 — How podcast goals (media vs. B2B) affect which metrics matter.
• 04:24–05:29 — The limited relevance of completion rate and the value of partial/short-form content engagement.
• 05:29 — The importance of matching metrics to strategic business outcomes.
• Entire episode (~02:57–06:40) — A candid, nuanced discussion deconstructing podcast success myths and the need to focus on what matters for your goals.

Conclusion & Takeaway

Benjamin Shapiro and Cody Goff urge marketers and brands to look beyond top-line download numbers and tailor their podcast measurement strategies to why the show exists and what success truly means in their context. What looks like a “working” podcast on a metric sheet might mean little if it's not delivering on its real business purpose—be it reach, conversion, or finessed influence in a specialized market.

For further insights or to reach out to Cody Goff, links are available in the show notes and on martechpod.com.