Guest swaps, SEO, or listener surveys?

Summary

MarTech Podcast ™ // Marketing + Technology = Business Growth

Episode: Guest swaps, SEO, or listener surveys?
Date: April 1, 2026
Host: Benjamin Shapiro
Guest: Cody Goff, Podcast Growth Strategist (NerdWallet)

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Episode Overview

In this episode, host Benjamin Shapiro and podcast growth strategist Cody Goff dive deep into the most effective organic growth levers for podcasts. They compare guest swaps, SEO, and listener surveys, focusing on real-world examples and best practices for achieving sustainable, meaningful podcast growth. The conversation emphasizes the strategic use of guest swaps, how to evaluate partnerships, and the importance of viewing peer shows as allies rather than competitors.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ultimate Lever for Podcast Growth: Strategic Guest Swaps

• Cody’s Choice for Growth

  • When asked to pick one lever for organic podcast growth (guest swaps, SEO, or listener surveys), Cody immediately advocates for strategic guest swaps.
  • Quote:

    “I'm going to say guest swaps, but they have to be really strategic and ideally … you not only guest swap with someone in the industry or with the topic you're interested in, but also, like, they should be a podcast host.”
    — Cody Goff [03:05]

• Why Guest Swaps Work

  • Guest swaps between podcasters, especially those with overlapping audiences, deliver higher returns.
  • Avoid guest swaps with random employees or people outside the podcast ecosystem for best results.

• Quality Over Quantity

  • Strategic targeting is key: Collaborate with shows that have real audiences within or adjacent to your niche.
  • Quote:

    “There are only so many relevant podcasts in your niche, most likely, and so you have to be careful of going on a bunch of podcasts that are … down market, but podcasts that don't really have audiences and that probably aren't worth your time. So be specific about who you're working with and try to understand if they have an actual following and an audience and if it's worth your time.”
    — Benjamin Shapiro [03:45]

2. Defining the “Swapportunity”

• Branding the Tactic

  • Benjamin coins the term “swapportunity” for targeted podcast host guesting, humorously suggesting branding rights.
  • Quote:

    “I want my name with a big TM and a smiling picture of me next to this. It's the swapportunity.”
    — Benjamin Shapiro [03:35]

• The discussion frames guest swaps not as simple favors but as efficient relationship building and co-marketing.

3. Nurturing Partnerships & Avoiding Competition Mindset

• Peers Are Allies, Not Competitors

  • Cody urges podcasters not to view peer shows as rivals.
  • Use tools like Refonic to map your audience’s listening habits and find authentic synergy.
  • Quote:

    “Don't ever look at your podcast peers as competitors. … It made sense for us to swap [with] science podcasts. … Like, once you exhaust your niche, … go a little bit outside. What do people who are in marketing … maybe there's a mental health podcast that'll be relevant to them, or maybe it's about startups or entrepreneurship.”
    — Cody Goff [04:35]

• Expanding Beyond the Core Niche

  • Once your direct niche is tapped, seek adjacent content categories (e.g., marketing podcasters collaborating with shows about mental health, startups, etc.) to grow audience reach.

4. Risks and Limits of Guest Swaps

• Scalability:
  • The pool of relevant, high-quality guest swap opportunities is finite.
  • Podcast hosts must ensure new partners are a good fit and have an established audience.
  • Avoid “going down market”—partner only with shows that can offer reciprocal value.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 03:05 | Cody Goff | "I'm going to say guest swaps, but they have to be really strategic and ideally, ideally, you not only guest swap with someone in the industry … but also, like, they should be a podcast host." | | 03:35 | Benjamin Shapiro | "I want my name with a big TM and a smiling picture of me next to this. It's the swapportunity." | | 03:45 | Benjamin Shapiro | "That is the most valuable thing you can do as a podcaster is be in the industry, be in the niche, right? And start having conversations with other people that have shows to start getting credibility..." | | 04:35 | Cody Goff | "Don't ever look at your podcast peers as competitors. … Use Refonic … Once you exhaust your niche … go a little bit outside. Like, what do people who are in marketing … maybe there's a mental health podcast that'll be relevant to them..." |

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Important Segment Timestamps

• [03:05] — Cody identifies guest swaps as the top organic growth tactic and explains why they must be strategic.
• [03:35] — Benjamin playfully coins “swapportunity.”
• [03:45 – 04:35] — Deep dive into the benefits, challenges, and tactics for guest swapping, including pitfalls to avoid.
• [04:35 – 05:23] — Advice on mapping audience overlap, using Refonic, and expanding outside your core niche.

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Summary of Actionable Tips

• Prioritize strategic guest swaps with other podcast hosts in your niche or closely related categories.
• Use data (e.g., Refonic) to understand what else your audience listens to and forge peer partnerships accordingly.
• Approach swaps as an opportunity for mutual benefit and exposure, not as transactional guest appearances.
• Once niche options are exhausted, thoughtfully expand into adjacent spaces your audience finds relevant.
• Verify each potential partner’s real audience and credibility before proceeding.

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Tone & Language

The conversation balances practical advice and humor, with Benjamin’s lighthearted “swapportunity” quip and Cody’s direct, grounded strategies. The tone is accessible, actionable, and rooted in industry experience—a blend of pragmatic marketing expertise and candid podcasting wisdom.

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For further information or to connect with Cody Goff, check the show notes or visit podcastgrowthconsultant.com.

Transcript

[A]

The Martech Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com.

[B]

From advertising to software as a service to data across all of our programs and clients, we've seen a 55 to 65% open rate.

[C]

Getting brands authentically integrated into content performs

[B]

better than TV advertising. Typical lifespan of an article is about 24 to 36 hours. We're reaching out to the right person with the right message and a clear call to action. Then it's just a matter of timing.

[A]

Welcome to the Martech Podcast, a member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. In this podcast, you'll hear the stories of world class marketers that you use technology to drive business results and achieve career success. Here's the host of the Martech Podcast, Benjamin Shapiro

[B]

I'm Benjamin Shapiro and joining me today is Cody Goff, a podcast growth strategist who also works at NerdWallet and a longtime operator who scaled award winning shows for major brands. And today Cody's going to break down what actually drives sustainability sustainable, organic growths in podcasts. Time for a short break to hear from our sponsor, Scrunch. When was the last time you actually visited a website to research something? For me, AI does all that work now. So if AI is doing the discovery research and deciding who or what is your brand's website really for the rise of AI bots becoming as important as new visitors is a massive change in user behavior. And that's what Scrunch is taking head on. Scrunch is the AI customer experience platform that helps marketing teams understand how AI agents experience their site. They tell you how your brand shows up in LLM results, where it doesn't and what's preventing your content from being retrieved, trusted or recommended. It's not just visibility. Scrunch shows you the content gaps, citation gaps, and how to fix the technical blockers that matter so your brand is found and chosen to in AI answers. Face it, your most important site visitor isn't human anymore. It's the AI deciding what gets surfaced. And for Martech podcast listeners, Scrunch is providing a free website diagnostic that uncovers how AI sees your site, where you have content gaps and where you're showing up versus your competition. To see how LLMs evaluate your site, go to scrunch.com martech that's scrunch s c r u n c-h.com sl martech if you could pick one lever for organic growth, what are you choosing? Guest swaps. SEO listener surveys. What's your choice?

[C]

I'm going to say guest swaps, but they have to be really strategic and ideally, ideally, you not only guest swap with someone in the industry or with the topic you're interested in, but also, like, they should be a podcast host. Um, I've just seen way better returns on that. So if I were you, don't do a favor for somebody so that some random employee can come on your show, swap guests as like, oh, with another podcast host.

[B]

I want my name with a big TM and a smiling picture of me next to this. It's the swapportunity.

[A]

Wow.

[B]

You're welcome. I think that is the most valuable thing you can do as a podcaster is be in the industry, be in the niche, right? And start having conversations with other people that have shows to start getting credibility, putting yourself out there, showing that you are somebody that the audience will want to listen to, like, driving deep engagement. It is the swap. It is hard to scale that, right? There are only so many relevant podcasts in your niche, most likely, and so you have to be careful of going on a bunch of podcasts that are, let's call them, down market, but podcasts that don't really have audiences and that probably aren't worth your time. So be specific about who you're working with and try to understand if they have an actual following and an audience and if it's worth your time. But when it is and when they do, it's really worth it.

[C]

I would add to that, don't ever look at your podcast peers as competitors. If you go to, like, Refonic and you can, you can see like a web of what your listeners are also listening to. And when I was at Discovery, like, every other science podcast is what they listen to. Like, what else do your listeners listen to? Not news, not sports, all science podcasts. So, like, it made sense for us to swap whether science podcasts. And then the other thing is, like, once you exhaust your niche, like, I don't know how many other marketing technology podcasts there are, but, like, go a little bit outside. Like, what do people who are in marketing, what are they into? Like, maybe there's a mental health podcast that'll be relevant to them, or maybe maybe it's about startups or entrepreneurship.

[B]

So go a little bit about cloud code. Yeah, cloud code. There you go.

[C]

Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. So there's some ways to blur that a little bit, but yeah.

[B]

Well, that wraps up this episode of the Martech Podcast. Thanks for listening to my conversation with Cody Goff, a podcast growth strategist. He also works at NerdWallet. If you'd like to contact Cody, you could find a link to his LinkedIn profile in our shownotes or on martechpod.com you can always visit his personal website, which ispodcast growth consultant.com and if you haven't subscribed yet and you want a daily stream of marketing and technology knowledge in your podcast feed, click the subscribe button in your podcast app or on YouTube and we'll be back in your feed next week. All right, that's it for today, but until next time, my advice is to just focus on keeping your customers happy.

[C]

Foreign.

[A]

Thanks for listening to the Martech Podcast and I hear everything. Production Looking to launch or scale a podcast like this one for your brand? Then visit iheareverything. Com.