MarTech Podcast ™ // Marketing + Technology = Business Growth

Episode: Guest swaps, SEO, or listener surveys?
Date: April 1, 2026
Host: Benjamin Shapiro
Guest: Cody Goff, Podcast Growth Strategist (NerdWallet)

Episode Overview

In this episode, host Benjamin Shapiro and podcast growth strategist Cody Goff dive deep into the most effective organic growth levers for podcasts. They compare guest swaps, SEO, and listener surveys, focusing on real-world examples and best practices for achieving sustainable, meaningful podcast growth. The conversation emphasizes the strategic use of guest swaps, how to evaluate partnerships, and the importance of viewing peer shows as allies rather than competitors.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Ultimate Lever for Podcast Growth: Strategic Guest Swaps

• Cody’s Choice for Growth

  • When asked to pick one lever for organic podcast growth (guest swaps, SEO, or listener surveys), Cody immediately advocates for strategic guest swaps.
  • Quote:

    “I'm going to say guest swaps, but they have to be really strategic and ideally … you not only guest swap with someone in the industry or with the topic you're interested in, but also, like, they should be a podcast host.”
    — Cody Goff [03:05]

• Why Guest Swaps Work

  • Guest swaps between podcasters, especially those with overlapping audiences, deliver higher returns.
  • Avoid guest swaps with random employees or people outside the podcast ecosystem for best results.

• Quality Over Quantity

  • Strategic targeting is key: Collaborate with shows that have real audiences within or adjacent to your niche.
  • Quote:

    “There are only so many relevant podcasts in your niche, most likely, and so you have to be careful of going on a bunch of podcasts that are … down market, but podcasts that don't really have audiences and that probably aren't worth your time. So be specific about who you're working with and try to understand if they have an actual following and an audience and if it's worth your time.”
    — Benjamin Shapiro [03:45]

2. Defining the “Swapportunity”

• Branding the Tactic

  • Benjamin coins the term “swapportunity” for targeted podcast host guesting, humorously suggesting branding rights.
  • Quote:

    “I want my name with a big TM and a smiling picture of me next to this. It's the swapportunity.”
    — Benjamin Shapiro [03:35]

• The discussion frames guest swaps not as simple favors but as efficient relationship building and co-marketing.

3. Nurturing Partnerships & Avoiding Competition Mindset

• Peers Are Allies, Not Competitors

  • Cody urges podcasters not to view peer shows as rivals.
  • Use tools like Refonic to map your audience’s listening habits and find authentic synergy.
  • Quote:

    “Don't ever look at your podcast peers as competitors. … It made sense for us to swap [with] science podcasts. … Like, once you exhaust your niche, … go a little bit outside. What do people who are in marketing … maybe there's a mental health podcast that'll be relevant to them, or maybe it's about startups or entrepreneurship.”
    — Cody Goff [04:35]

• Expanding Beyond the Core Niche

  • Once your direct niche is tapped, seek adjacent content categories (e.g., marketing podcasters collaborating with shows about mental health, startups, etc.) to grow audience reach.

4. Risks and Limits of Guest Swaps

• Scalability:
  • The pool of relevant, high-quality guest swap opportunities is finite.
  • Podcast hosts must ensure new partners are a good fit and have an established audience.
  • Avoid “going down market”—partner only with shows that can offer reciprocal value.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote | |-----------|---------|-------| | 03:05 | Cody Goff | "I'm going to say guest swaps, but they have to be really strategic and ideally, ideally, you not only guest swap with someone in the industry … but also, like, they should be a podcast host." | | 03:35 | Benjamin Shapiro | "I want my name with a big TM and a smiling picture of me next to this. It's the swapportunity." | | 03:45 | Benjamin Shapiro | "That is the most valuable thing you can do as a podcaster is be in the industry, be in the niche, right? And start having conversations with other people that have shows to start getting credibility..." | | 04:35 | Cody Goff | "Don't ever look at your podcast peers as competitors. … Use Refonic … Once you exhaust your niche … go a little bit outside. Like, what do people who are in marketing … maybe there's a mental health podcast that'll be relevant to them..." |

Important Segment Timestamps

• [03:05] — Cody identifies guest swaps as the top organic growth tactic and explains why they must be strategic.
• [03:35] — Benjamin playfully coins “swapportunity.”
• [03:45 – 04:35] — Deep dive into the benefits, challenges, and tactics for guest swapping, including pitfalls to avoid.
• [04:35 – 05:23] — Advice on mapping audience overlap, using Refonic, and expanding outside your core niche.

Summary of Actionable Tips

• Prioritize strategic guest swaps with other podcast hosts in your niche or closely related categories.
• Use data (e.g., Refonic) to understand what else your audience listens to and forge peer partnerships accordingly.
• Approach swaps as an opportunity for mutual benefit and exposure, not as transactional guest appearances.
• Once niche options are exhausted, thoughtfully expand into adjacent spaces your audience finds relevant.
• Verify each potential partner’s real audience and credibility before proceeding.

Tone & Language

The conversation balances practical advice and humor, with Benjamin’s lighthearted “swapportunity” quip and Cody’s direct, grounded strategies. The tone is accessible, actionable, and rooted in industry experience—a blend of pragmatic marketing expertise and candid podcasting wisdom.

For further information or to connect with Cody Goff, check the show notes or visit podcastgrowthconsultant.com.