The Playbook for Sustainable, Organic Podcast Growth

Summary

MarTech Podcast: The Playbook for Sustainable, Organic Podcast Growth

Host: Benjamin Shapiro

Guest: Cody Goff (Podcast Growth Strategist, NerdWallet)

Date: March 30, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Benjamin Shapiro sits down with Cody Goff, a podcast growth strategist and industry veteran currently at NerdWallet. Their lively, tactical discussion breaks down the key ingredients to building and sustaining organic podcast growth—especially for niche and branded shows. They navigate the challenges of discoverability, the realities of SEO and content planning, cross-platform video strategy, and what truly moves the needle for growing a podcast audience without relying solely on paid media.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Fragmented Path to Podcast Discoverability

• Discoverability ≠ Reach: While over half of American adults listen to podcasts monthly, finding new shows is harder than it appears. (01:16)
• Organic growth relies less on luck and more on intentional processes, particularly SEO and leveraging networks.

Podcast SEO: Optimizing for Search & Discovery

• Titles, Descriptions, and Publisher Names:
  • Prioritize keywords in these fields—get granular and purposeful.
  • Example: Renaming the publisher from "Curiosity" to "Curiosity Science" to capture search traffic in science queries. (04:00)
• Does SEO Actually Work for Podcasts?
  • Cody cites that by optimizing keywords, a major podcast he managed saw a 15-20% organic download increase—even outside the context of paid media.
  • Tools like Voxelize (now defunct) and Ausha can track keyword performance in app stores. (05:18)

"By including the right keywords... we saw a measurable lift in organic growth... double digit percent growth, not a bad thing to have." — Cody (05:18)

Niche Podcasting: Play to Your Strengths

• Audience Size Matches Content Breadth:
  • Small, specialized industries can dominate their micro-niche in search (e.g., a semiconductor or RISC-V podcast).
  • Start small and grow reputation through targeted content. (07:36)

"Amazon didn’t start as Amazon. They started selling books. Everyone’s got some share of voice on the Internet." — Cody (07:36)

Distribution Beyond the Podcast Feed

• Be Where Your Audience Is:
  • Don’t just publish and hope; email your connections, share clips on LinkedIn, and select appropriate channels for your niche.
  • Organic growth often comes from building community presence and connections. (09:23)

Content Adaptation for Platforms

• No Single Format Fits All Algorithms:
  • You can't just cut up podcast video and expect it to work across platforms. Instead, design segments (e.g., lightning rounds, concise expert answers) for easy repurposing. (11:38, 12:39)

"They're all different dialects of the Internet and you have to really tailor to that." — Cody (11:38)

• YouTube Algorithm Reality:
  • Long-form B2B podcasts aren’t favored by YouTube’s recommendation engine.
  • Shorts and snackable excerpts work far better for discoverability. (14:04, 16:26)

"YouTube’s algorithm does not care about your 35-minute B2B marketing podcast... It's recommending short, engaging, high-completion content." — Cody (14:04)

• Titles Matter—Write Them Before or After?:
  • While pre-writing titles is an ideal strategy to maximize SEO, conversations can pivot, so flexibility is key. (14:04)

Data and Audience Feedback: Listener Surveys

• Why & How to Survey:
  • Listener surveys (preferably promoted only within the podcast) provide gold in understanding audience demography, content interests, and format preferences.
  • Key buckets for survey questions: demographics, content likes/dislikes, and feedback on episode format. (19:25)

"Listener surveys are the number one gold mine for data." — Cody (18:22)

• Selection Bias Caveats:
  • Expect some responses to be skewed, but how you frame questions can reduce bias (e.g., "What would you miss most if the show ended tomorrow?"). (22:17)

Human-Centric Content vs. Data-Driven Research

• People First, Data Supported:
  • Ben describes focusing on guests’ expertise, then tying topics to audience interests—sometimes against his own personal preferences.
  • Successful content balances what excites the host/guest and matches data trends or growing topics (e.g., using tools to spot trending topics that will become popular at the time of publishing). (24:03, 27:03)

Paid vs. Organic Growth—Should You Run Ads?

• Paid Media’s Role:
  • Paid promotion for podcasts (especially on audio platforms) is recommended for launching or boosting growth when you lack a built-in audience. (36:36)
  • Caution: On YouTube, mixing paid and organic can hurt organic reach; paid strategies rarely convert viewers into lasting subscribers. (29:44)

"Don’t pay money to YouTube, because they will just stop helping you as soon as you stop paying them." — Cody (29:44)

• YouTube Shorts and TikTok:
  • Organic shorts get 10x more reach than full episodes. TikTok and YouTube Shorts can drive significant exposure with strategic use. (34:33)

Tactical Takeaways for Organic Growth

• Use audience data AND experimentation to refine topics and guests.
• Optimize episode titles and avoid amateur pitfalls (e.g., using non-searchable names, episode numbers).
• Strategic "guest swaps" with other podcast hosts in your or adjacent niches are incredibly valuable for growth.
• Don’t treat related podcasters as competition; collaborations amplify reach.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On SEO & Keyword Optimization:

“Podcast SEO means you really need to pay attention to the words that you’re using. And that’s in titles and descriptions, but, like, really in titles and in titles and in publishers, too.” — Cody (04:00)

On Platform-Specific Strategy:

“YouTube’s algorithm does not care about your 35-minute B2B marketing podcast... It’s recommending short, engaging, high-completion content.” — Cody (14:04)

On Titles and Guests:

“People use people’s names when no one’s searching for those names... Just give the value. Put the guest’s name unless it’s a really, really high profile guest.” — Cody (37:56)

On Download Metrics:

"I'm supposed to say downloads because they're easy to game and they're not useless... They're very important. But could they be better defined?" — Cody (43:40)

On Paid vs. Organic Growth:

"If your strategy is, have a budget and use that budget to get the video in front of people, awesome. If your strategy is, I want to organically grow a channel... don’t pay money to YouTube." — Cody (29:44)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Podcast SEO & Keyword Optimization: 04:00 – 07:36
• Distribution Channels & Content Tailoring: 09:23 – 13:00
• YouTube & Video Strategy Insights: 14:04 – 16:58
• Listener Surveys for Feedback: 18:22 – 22:17
• Audience Insights & Data Use: 24:03 – 27:03
• Paid vs. Organic Growth Debate: 29:11 – 35:52
• Rapid Fire / Lightning Round: 37:46 – 49:38
  • Mistakes in Titles: 37:56
  • Most Valuable Growth Lever: 41:10
  • Metrics Not to Trust: 43:40
  • Pitfalls in Going Video: 46:46
  • Sign of Market Fit: 49:44

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Lighting Round Highlights

• #1 Title Mistake: Using little-known guest names or episode numbers in titles. Focus on topic-driven, value-centric titles. (37:56)
• Most Effective Growth Lever: "Guest swaps"—preferably with other podcast hosts in your niche or adjacent ones. (41:10)
• Download Metrics: Not always trustworthy; contextualize based on show type and goals. (43:40)
• Biggest Video Trap: Lack of a real YouTube strategy (titles, thumbnails, chapters, payoff in first 30 seconds). (46:46)
• Real Market Fit: Social engagement and genuine audience feedback, not just stats. (49:44)

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Key Takeaways

• Intentional SEO in podcast titles, descriptions, and publisher fields drives discoverability.
• Content must be adapted for each platform’s unique algorithm and culture.
• Listener surveys (promoted inside the show) are an untapped mine of strategic intelligence.
• Organic growth is slow and unpredictable; paid audio-specific ads can provide the needed early momentum.
• Collaboration through strategic guest swaps is undervalued and highly effective.
• On YouTube, shorts outperform long-form for discovery, but expect slow growth.
• Metrics (downloads, completion, engagement) must be chosen based on show objectives—not all stats are equally meaningful.

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Closing Thoughts

The episode is a tactical, no-BS guide to the real levers of podcast growth, grounded in years of hard-won experience from both host and guest. Listeners walk away with actionable strategies to boost organic reach, make smarter use of paid vs. organic tactics, adapt content for each distribution platform, and avoid rookie mistakes—that elusive “playbook” for sustainable, organic podcast growth the title promises.

Transcript

[Podcast Network Announcer]

The Martech Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

From advertising to software as a service to data across all of our programs and clients, we've seen a 55 to 65% open rate.

[Cody Goff]

Getting brands authentically integrated into content performs better than TV advertising.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Typical lifespan of an article is about 24 to 36 hours.

[Cody Goff]

We're reaching out to the right person

[Benjamin Shapiro]

with the right message and a clear call to action.

[Cody Goff]

Then it's just a matter of timing.

[Podcast Network Announcer]

Welcome to the Martech Podcast, a member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. In this podcast, you'll hear the stories of world class marketers that you use technology to drive business results and achieve career success. Here's the host of the Martech podcast, Benjamin Shapiro.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

53% podcasts now reach 53% of American adults every month. That's huge reach. But reach doesn't equal discoverability. More shows, more competition, more noise. And if you're relying on algorithms or word of mouth to do the heavy lifting, you're probably stuck. So what's the organic growth playbook that actually works? When can't you buy your audience? I'm Benjamin Shapiro and joining me today is Cody Goff, a podcast growth strategist who also works at NerdWallet and a longtime operator who's scaled award winning shows for major brands. And today Cody's going to break down what actually drives sustainable, organic growth in podcasting. Time for a short break to hear

[Sponsor Representative]

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[Benjamin Shapiro]

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[Sponsor Representative]

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[Benjamin Shapiro]

Cody, welcome to the Martech Podcast.

[Cody Goff]

Thanks for that intro. I've got all my hot takes ready for you today.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Well, I'm excited to have you here. You're the man behind multiple podcasts that we all know and love. I know that you're working at Nerd Wallet. You're also a strategist, and I want your strategist brain, not your Nerd Wallet brain. As much as we love the finance and the podcasting and all that stuff, I want you to help me. This is a little bit of a selfish episode. Let's not kid ourselves. Organic growth and podcasting. Sign me up. Give me the lay of the land here. Walk me through the process for podcast SEO.

[Cody Goff]

Podcast SEO means you really need to pay attention to the words that you're using. And that's in titles and descriptions, but, like, really in titles and in titles and in publishers, too. Like, even the publisher name. Like, I worked for a brand for. Curiosity was a startup that I worked for that was acquired later by Discovery. And, like, if we put the publisher name of the podcast as the published by Curiosity, great. But we were a science podcast. We literally could have named ourselves like. Like, the publisher is like Curiosity Education or like Curiosity Science. Just to get that science keyword in there. Stuff like that, you can. You can kind of cheat a little bit, but you just gotta make sure that everything is in those titles and even the publisher names so that you're, you know, search

[Benjamin Shapiro]

searchable. Sure. But does this stuff actually work right? I've been doing podcasts. We've got thousands of titles across multiple different shows. We never really change our titles. We do very little optimization. And organic growth just is something that happens on the side. Sometimes an episode hits and gets organic growth, and sometimes it doesn't. It doesn't seem like there's a rhyme or a reason. We always follow the same practice. How should you think about organic growth when it comes to your media yet?

[Cody Goff]

Yeah, so there was a tool that I used a while back called voxelize. They don't exist anymore, so don't look them up, but it was a startup that essentially worked on podcast engine optimization or peo fun acronym. And they claimed that by making sure that basically you had the right keywords that people were searching for in podcast apps like Apple and Spotify. Like if you put the right keywords there, they could kind of track where you appear in search results for those keywords. And by including them more and more in your titles and descriptions, you would show up more. And I work on a very large podcast that saw somewhere between a 15 and 20% growth in organic downloads after becoming really fully optimized, you know, tracking things that were related keywords that maybe we used to rank like between 8 and 10 or 8 and 15 on. And now all of a sudden we're ranking number one, number two. And although like the data is somewhat limited, it's not quite as robust as Google Trends or something. Like we couldn't see exactly how much traffic we're getting from each search term. But we saw a measurable lift in organic growth and that was in the absence of paid media. So, you know, double digit percent growth, not a bad thing to have. And there is another service that does, that does similar to what it does called OSHA A U S h a they'll let you plug in keywords and you can use that to really closely track again what people are searching for and how you're showing up in those results.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

A 10 to 15% boost is nice, but if you're a nobody talking about content and topics that are relatively popular, the baseline is going to be relatively low. So for podcasters, not the nobodies, but the people that are listening to this show who mostly are branded media. Right. I've got a little bit of a domain reputation. It is niche B2B marketing, some sort of segment demand gen. Right. Some people I guess are looking in podcasts for that, but it's not like commercial intent. It's not people that are looking for murder mysteries or sports where there's just tons of demand. How should you think about prioritizing, you know, keyword optimization? Where does that live in the media mix?

[Cody Goff]

I mean, niche down, right? Like, well, first of all, in a lot of cases you, you, you can niche down really specifically. So, um, I was working for like a semiconductor company and not that many. Yeah, very exciting. Uh, not that many people were looking for like RISC V, which I don't even know what that means. They were working on like basically computer systems for autonomous vehicles and like really hyper, hyper specialized stuff. Right. If you go in a podcast app and you look up Risc V like they're the result. Uh, you're not going to get anywhere else. Um, right, for the broader stuff, I mean, you just, you have to start somewhere, right? Like Amazon didn't start as Amazon, they started selling books. You know, everyone's got some share of voice on the Internet. Uh, maybe it's not as much as you want it to be, but if you don't start, then you're never going to get to where you want to go. And even if you're like a mom and pop establishment, like, again, you just need to start to put yourself out there and start to build that reputation. And over time, you know, you'll get to where you want to go.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

There's this idea in my head of what the distribution levers are and what your expectations should be. And if you're working in a relatively small niche, you shouldn't expect a gigantic audience, right? If you are a B2B marketing demand generation and you only work on LinkedIn podcasts, like, maybe there's a bunch of people that are looking for podcasts about LinkedIn, but probably not going to be a huge market. Your audience size is relevant to the content that you're talking about. So how do you make sure that you're targeting to capture those, you know, longer tail, more specific niche content?

[Cody Goff]

So I think this is going to answer your question, but correct me if I'm off on this. You want to, you want to reach the people that you want to reach, right? And part of that is going where they are. And like you mentioned LinkedIn, like, if you're in a niche industry or you're in any industry and you've got business contacts, potential customers, you know, past clients, whatever, and you're all connected, like, that's when you start putting your stuff there, right? Like, it's not like you just like make a podcast about something, you throw it up on Apple podcasts and Spotify and then hope people find it. You need to be putting it somewhere, you need to email it to the people you're connected to. You need to be posting clips on LinkedIn and if there's video, and you need to proactively be putting it in front of the people that are most likely to consume it. And then from there, growth can happen as you begin to develop a reputation within your niche or within your industry or whatever it may be. Seven years ago, eight years ago, I think you started your podcast and not that many people knew the Martech podcast. And now a whole lot do, right? And that's in part because so Many connections have talked to each other about it and said, check out this show and all that kind of stuff.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

I hope that's what's happening. I think what actually happened is there was a vacuum of demand that people were actually looking for Martech because the industry was starting to become reputable. And when people are starting to look for knowledge and education about a specific topic, where do they look? Well, they probably go to, well, some sort of LLM first. Maybe they're going to Google still and then they start looking for other media. So they go to YouTube or they go to audio only podcasts. Apple and Spotify. Right. Maybe they're looking for social content. But those are the five or six general sources. You were talking about distribution before. And we want organic growth. I want my podcast to grow based on the beauty that is the martech podcast. But also people are finding our topics. How do you think about not only creating topics that are right for the channel, but also making sure that you're modifying the topic so each individual algorithm across all these different platforms love them?

[Cody Goff]

Well, you're not going to find a one size fits all. So like, I'm sorry, podcast producers and marketing people that think like, I'll make a video podcast and then I'll just clip from it and then I've got everything I need for TikTok and Instagram and YouTube and LinkedIn clips, like they're all, they're all different dialects of the Internet and you have to really like tailor them to that. So like, for example, a lot of people post out of context clips of podcasts on LinkedIn, which can be fine, but it's better if you've designed for that. So you need to go from like I just did a 30 minute conversation. I'm going to go back and see if there's something that works for LinkedIn or YouTube. And instead what I'm going to say is I'm going to deliberately design my podcast. So I have a section or a segment where I'm asking the guest something really pointed in a way way where I know I can go back and I can pull that and it's already got a hook built into it. I believe you do this with your lightning round questions.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Oh, you're giving away all the secrets

[Cody Goff]

not to, you know, pull back the curtain too much. But that's, it's a perfect example, right? Or if you were to ask me like, hey Cody, how about this concept? Explain it in 30 seconds, then I'm now on the spot. Maybe it won't hit the 30 seconds, but I'm going to have something relatively concise that's going to play well on other platforms.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Cody, this is one of those episodes where I feel like I just need to throw away the script and the questions that's sitting in front and we need to debate what we're actually doing and talking about what works. And you've done it a little bit here. So, hey, script, goodbye here. Let's go. We do a deep dive, right? YouTube generally, or we want to get some real thought leadership. A 30 minute conversation, right? That's what people think of as podcasts, meaty content. And we put it on YouTube, but really people are consuming the long form content in audio only. But then we realized, all right, the world wants social shorts and they want more snackable content. We need to put our content in all these different places. So we started doing this lightning round, which you and I are going to do at the end of this episode. So I have essentially a five minute conversation instead of a 30 minute conversation that I could take the one minute worth of real deep knowledge, clip it together, and now I've got a one minute social short, right? And so we ask five questions at the end and we have a deep dive now. We've got long format, short format content, and we write titles after the fact. What are we doing wrong?

[Cody Goff]

Oh, no, well, well, okay, you're supposed to write the titles before the fact. That's what I've read and been told and learned from many peers. How realistic is that? It depends. It depends a little bit on your guess, but it doesn't really give you much room for surprises. Like when I was at Discovery, I interviewed a climate scientist about this book she had written about natural disasters through history. And the conversation went totally left field and we ended up talking about science communication because really her goal is like, how do I help people understand earthquakes and hurricanes and volcanoes go off and stuff. And the whole context of the episode changed. So when I'm editing, if I had said, like, here's a podcast about natural disasters, it would have been a lie because it was about how we talk about natural disasters. So, so that's one thing you, there's, there's some truth to, to what you're saying. That that doing that, that title first is, is great. Um, you know, putting, putting a long form podcast episode on YouTube isn't necessarily going to hurt you. But what a lot of people that have made the switch to video podcasting seem to miss is that YouTube's algorithm does not care about your 35 minute B2B marketing podcast like it just doesn't like YouTube is suggesting there's my first hot take. YouTube is, is recommending short stuff to people. It's recommending stuff with a really high completion rate and a high watch time. Like, people might stick around for five to 10 minutes of most branded podcasts like that, but they're not sticking around for the whole thing. So that's. It's just not in YouTube's interest to drive traffic there. Now should you still have it there because you post YouTube short, it's got a good excerpt from an episode that links back to the episode. Like, sure, yes. You may convert someone from a short to checking out your channel, maybe even following it. They're not going to put down their, you know, they're not going to swipe away from, from YouTube shorts and open up their podcast app on their phone and then find you on their podcast app and follow it. It's just like that cross platform conversion is. It's just not a thing. And I think a lot of podcasters who have worked in social media marketing will tell you that, like, hey, I just posted an Instagram story where you can swipe up and go to my podcast. I have a million followers and I had seven people swipe up, you know, like, like I've literally had that happen before.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Not a great conversion rate.

[Cody Goff]

Not a great conversion rate. Right. So I don't remember what your initial question was, but I. Well, what people are doing wrong. I think what people are doing Wrong is thinking YouTube loves podcasts now. I'm going to now do a video podcast for YouTube and it's like, no, not exactly. YouTube likes video content that's good and engaging and short and clicky and that's more going to be shorts. So you've got to kind of understand like the context of everything you're building and where to put it.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

You know, it's funny, we've gone back and forth about this. Should we record the conversation, see what comes out and then title it appropriately? Or should we do our research and figure out what the hot topics are and then craft the content around the hot topics? We're doing the latter now. I go and I look for what are the topics. The truth is, I look for who are the guests and the people that I want to talk to that are influential in the Martech industry. I look for their area of expertise. Then I figure out what's interesting to the audience in that general sphere and then I ask them to answer questions that are on topic for the audience. In their area of expertise. So we start with who's the person. We look at the audience, we look at their experience, Then we look at what the audience cares about, and that's how we craft our titles, or at least the topics we're going to cover for the podcast. And then we wordsmith the actual title after the fact, considering what was talked about in the conversation. But there is this notion when we talk about organic growth, of understanding where there is blue ocean around you when you're, you know, you're a strategist working on multiple podcasts. I mentioned before, you work at NerdWallet. You don't have to specifically talk to what you do for them, but for the clients and customers that you manage. How do you think about figuring out what is relevant to the audience or what are the topics where there is room for growth? Specifically on YouTube.

[Cody Goff]

Yeah. The first place that I think any podcaster needs to start when they're starting their journey, is what are they passionate about and what are they interested in talking about? And then understanding audience signals from there and then honing down. So if I'm brand new, like, for. Again, for discovery, like, we did all things science, we would do geology stories and astronomy and psychology and food science and all this stuff. And then over time, listener surveys are the number one gold mine for data. If you've never done a listener survey and you've been in operation for more than a year, or you have more than, I don't know, maybe a few hundred listeners, let's say four or five hundred listeners. If you've had either of those milestones and you've not done a listener survey, then it's okay, I forgive you, but you should do that. Now's the time to do that.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

We've got 20,000 followers. I've been doing this for eight years. How do you do a listener survey?

[Cody Goff]

I know. I'm sure you've done some listener service. The. So the number one resource for this, there's a book, it's also an audiobook called the Audience is Listening by Tom Webster. Tom Webster is like the God of podcasting. Basically. He's just like, he just knows everything. But a couple highlights from that, in terms of executionally, um, there's the sky's the limit. Google forms. Let's go on Google. Make a Google form, literally list, you know, 10, 20 questions and then tell your listeners about it. Um, it doesn't matter where you host it. You can SurveyMonkey. You could do your website with an intake form that you design Google form whatever. You can collect it however you want. What's really important is you only promote it on your podcast because if you put it on your website, then some random website, like, visitor may, like, fill it out and they've never heard your podcast before. But you don't want. This is not a market research activity in terms of your. Your potential addressable market. This is you getting data on who's listening because you want to double down on what's working for them so that more people like them start to come to your podcast and they start to share, and it makes it a, you know, more like shareable kind of product. And then in terms of, like, what questions you ask, right. There's the demographic information. I kind of think of it in three categories, three buckets. One is the demographic information. Who are you, and, you know, what's your household income or what business are you in? All that kind of stuff. Number two would be content, like, preferences, like, what do you want to hear more of? What do you want to hear less of, essentially? And then third is, like, kind of formatting stuff, like, are we too long? Are we too short? And then any other questions that you have and any question, anything that you're unclear on. Right. Like maybe your completion rates are all over the board, or maybe you see inconsistent performance whenever you interview somebody that that's like, you know, works as a CTO somewhere. It's like, well, sometimes the ctos hit real big. Sometimes those totally flop. Like, what. What does my audience think of this? So whatever you're curious about, and then again, go buy Tom's book and he'll have more questions for you. But, but think of it in terms of those, Those buckets, at the very least, to kind of get as much info as you can.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

I'm torn on this. Of course you should talk to your consumers and understand what they want. That's something I'm embarrassed to say that we've never done. I get feedback on LinkedIn, people write, and then I ask them, what could we do better on the show? And I generally try to keep my finger on the pulse of who's listening to the podcast and look at what topics are interesting to them. I feel like self reporting sometimes doesn't always give you the true answers. So my feeling is you can use the tools at our disposal, like SEO tools, to understand what are the hot topics or what are the up and coming topics, and try to be a first mover. Fundamentally. There's. Go ahead.

[Cody Goff]

If I can jump in real quick on that. So, yes, there's selection bias, you for sure get that. I've hosted and worked on podcasts that are obviously skew male and more women take the survey. Because I've. I read somewhere one time, don't quote me on this, that like, women are more likely to take surveys or something like that. So yes, take some of that with a grain of salt. But there's an art to the way that you can ask the questions as well. Because if you say something like, what's your favorite part of our. Part of our show? Like, maybe they think one thing, maybe it's different another day, something like that. But one of the ways Tom phrases it and one of the questions is like, if we stop doing the show tomorrow, what's the thing you would miss the most about it? And just like simple little reframings like that can give you a little bit, like, it just makes people think about things a little bit differently. Um, to where you're not asking them like, you know, do this one to five or stack rank, you know what your favorite thing is? Cause that, that is a little bit kind of arbitrary. Um, and one other thing that is highly recommended is like, when you can capture those listeners information that take the survey, talk to them one on one after, like literally say, can I email you after this and get more information, have an actual conversation with them and you get to go really deep. But also going back to what you said about having not done a listener survey before, like, you know, what's, what works. And this goes back to what I was talking about when I said that, you know, a podcaster should start by talking about what interests them. Like, you have a strong point of view on what you find interesting and you've attracted an audience that finds what you find interesting also interesting. So that's fine and that's valid. And you, you can get to a point where you pretty much know what works. Right. I'm guessing there haven't been a ton of huge surprises from you where you post an episode and you're just like, man, that totally bond. And I thought it would do well.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Have you. I think about it differently. Yes. We've had episodes that don't do well. Honestly, like, we supplement organic growth with paid. And so we have a baseline of known results because of the media buying that we do. And that's kind of the, you know, like the elephant in the room of like driving organic growth. Slow, risky, like, and incredibly profitable when you can do it successfully. It's the reason why I was so interested in having this conversation. We can File this in the bucket of conversations I wanted to have. But most of the time when I'm thinking about the podcast and like I mentioned, we are a people first show, I'm looking at who the person is and what their experiences are to figure out if they have information that would be interesting to deliver to the audience. I am, I just email. Just emailed. I just interviewed the former CEO of Demand Base, who now has a new startup that's doing marketing attribution. I am not personally very invested or interested in marketing attribution, but he's the former CEO of Demandbase, which is an incredibly powerful, reputable company in the Martech landscape. It's somebody that I think is interesting and I wanted to hear what his perspective is on the space. I don't give a shit about marketing attribution. I run a podcast. But it is what is interesting to the audience. It's also what this person that's influential is working on. So I look at my role as the host being the vehicle to get interesting people's perspectives to the audience that is in this industry. And less about personal bias, because I would basically only record shows about Claude Code right now. Because the whole use of artificial intelligence and how we're rebuilding our infrastructure to produce podcasts, like, that's where my head is at when I'm not on the camera. But I think people first and then we look for their expertise and then the titles that match around that. So maybe we're a unique snowflake. I don't know.

[Cody Goff]

Yeah, there's. Yeah, I'm kind of talking out of both sides of my mouth right now. Right. Because I'm just like, you do need the listener survey and the data, but also like, you probably know your audience because like, the kinds of things you do. But the one thing that sometimes can be missed is sometimes the audience doesn't know what they don't know. And in, in your case, like, maybe you loving, like, maybe you don't think your audience is like, really cares that much about Cloud Code, but maybe you just do like five episodes on it and they are totally obsessed and that just becomes a thing. Right. And a listener survey is a good way to gauge some of that. Like if we did a series on X, like, or if we interviewed, you know, somebody starting in, you know, this a little outside the box, you know, what do you think of this topic? Would you want to listen to that? That can be valuable, you know, a little bit of research as well.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Yeah, I, I think the right way to do this and this Is what we're doing using Claude code to build is you actually do the research. And I'm leaning more into YouTube to find where there are areas that are growing in popularity quickly but don't have a lot of coverage. So we're basically unearthing what is the future interesting topic, talking about it now and then it takes us a week or two to edit and publish the content. We can't publish everything right after we record it, so they end up getting spaced out a little bit. But if we can look at growth of a topic for our audience, we should be able to catch topics that are going to be popular by the time we publish and then we have to still match that with who is the speaker, you know, are they credible to talk about this and does our audience generally have interest in this topic? So, you know, you look at Moltbot or claudebot or whatever we're calling it today, like all of a sudden that blew up and people are like, oh my God, it's Skynet. The computers are taking over. And like if you look at the growth trajectory of that on Twitter and on YouTube, it was like a little popular, but then all of a sudden exponentially started getting mentioned more and more. Well, there's an inflection point there that we should have been able to monitor and look at the data saying, this is a topic that is going to be very interesting to your users. You should talk about this now. And then I should have found the most educated person on Mobot and interviewed them three months ago would have been nice. In general, I think that you can use data and try to look for signals that are giving what's evergreen content, what is a growing topic and then build around that to try to figure out what is going to be interesting to your audience when you're going to publish. At least that's what we're in the process of building. Yeah, using cloud code, which is what we should be talking about.

[Cody Goff]

I mean, I'm in the process of researching what I want to develop with Claude code right now, so. But I'm probably a couple steps behind you. So.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

So let's go back into organic growth. And we, we danced around this a little bit. YouTube doesn't really care about your long format video. Our answer to that is let's put a little paid budget and target the people that we want to push our content to to make sure that they see it. We get guaranteed views, we get listen time, but we have to pay for it. Well, and apparently that kills your organic growth when you're paying budget in YouTube specifically, does it affect your organic growth? And is that a channel or a lever you should pull?

[Cody Goff]

Yeah, look, if you've got a, if you, if your strategy is, have a budget and use that budget to get the video in front of people, awesome. If your strategy is, I want to organically grow a channel and gradually build an audience on YouTube. Don't pay money to YouTube because they will just stop helping you as soon as you stop paying them. I, I've seen channels just die, you know, after they try a little bit of paid spend. The other thing is, like, it's deceptively difficult to use YouTube advertising in a way that actually attracts, like, loyalty subscribers that will actually continue to come back. You've got to be really good at it. I, I've done some YouTube advertising, but I'm, I'm not an expert in it, but of the YouTube growth strategists I've talked to, a lot of them just say, like, can we please just not pay, like, money for this? I've also heard the same about TikTok, by the way, from social media managers I've worked with. It's just like, we don't need TikTok. We don't like the algorithm on TikTok is a really pro growth algorithm. You can hit us, you can hit a home run out of TikTok pretty quickly. Like, I was repurposing podcast clips from my craft beer podcast that I produce, Crafty Brewers. It's a great show. And like, it was like this the third week we, we were on TikTok and I posted one and it got 850,000 views and we got like a thousand followers within that month. You don't need to, to put, to, you know, put your thumb on the scale or whatever for TikTok growth YouTube, you just need to be comfortable with it being a little bit more slow and steady. And I would just be very wary once you enter the paid route again, unless it's your objective. It's just, you know, I know I can target, you know, whatever their, their targeting parameters are. If you can target people in your industry, like at the executive level that you're looking for, like, yeah, it's a great way to get in front of them because they're probably already on YouTube. That's great. But it's, it's just a little dicey when you compare that to organic growth.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Is there a scenario where you can do both? Can you drive organic growth and also supplement with paid?

[Cody Goff]

It's really about using paid very Strategically and for my money using paid in and I have a lot of paid media, like I've managed a lot of paid media. So this is definitely my bread and butter. But, but advertising the audio version of your podcast or at least just the podcast app version of your podcast, you know, Spotify has native advertising in it now so you can go do some self serve ads on Spotify and get people consuming your video podcast. There's, but there are, there are other much more efficient and impactful places where you can advertise your audio podcast where it's not going to mess with any algorithms, it's not going to mess with YouTube and I would, I would recommend spending, putting the lion's share of the media budget there.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

I'm on their board. So I will give a non sponsored but very heartfelt promotion to Mopod who is in my opinion the best in class when you're talking about growing your, the audio portion of your podcast. And we've used them and it's one of our secrets. You're on the board, the podcast. Yeah. Okay.

[Cody Goff]

I have, I have worked, I have worked a lot with Mopod as well.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

I love them.

[Cody Goff]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

As people. And also it's a great company and a great solution and it's an easy way to grow your audience if you want to use paid. It's a wonderful solution and gets real people listening to your podcast and all the visibility and credibility you want. And then you get into the YouTube side which is everybody thinks they need to be there and all of a sudden shows like, you know, Martech and you know, other shows, it's really hard to craft organic growth because the, it's, it just takes a ton of time. And so, you know, then you have this decision of should I pay or shouldn't to grow an audience? And for me the answer is I know I could target the people that I want to listen to this content and it is not very expensive. I'm going to go pay to promote the content and make sure it gets out to a very tightly targeted audience of people that work in the Martech industry and a specific number of companies and at specific job functions and household income and all the targeting that you want to do. And so I, you know, really triangulate, very try to be strategic about who we're targeting instead of hoping that they're on YouTube and hoping that YouTube's algorithm just says, okay, this is going to be a popular episode. Organic growth is really tricky on YouTube. There are companies and we've interviewed them that are like, nope, that's the only way to go. I just. The value prop for niche shows seems to be very challenging, my opinion.

[Cody Goff]

Yeah. And, you know, it. It goes back to like, if you've got a really niche show, then you can make a lot of money, typically from these clients. Like, you know, I worked on a podcast called like the Manufacturing Executive. Right. I had like 10 listeners or something, but one of them called up the host and was like, I would like to give you $3 million for a thing because I like your podcast. It's like, well, okay, there's some positive roi. So if you're in a situation like that and you're able to target that specifically, like, yeah, go for it on YouTube. Sounds good. But yeah, yeah, just slow and steady wins the race on there, unfortunately. But I will say organically, if you do want to grow your audience faster, that's where shorts come in handy, because YouTube does. You know, I said they don't care about your 35 minute B2B podcast. They do like shorts. They love shorts. They're trying to compete with everybody right now. Right. Because video shorts are just the Internet nowadays, right? LinkedIn has it, TikTok, obviously, Instagram, YouTube shorts. And they tend to just show it to more people. Like that craft beer podcast. You know, it'll only have like 50 to 100 views per full episode, but every short I post, it got a thousand plus, like every single one. And we saw some conversions from that. Some people went and checked out the episodes, some people turn into subscribers. Not a massive portion, but we're Talking about you get 10x the reach when you're posting a short versus the full episode.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Yep. Here's my takeaway. You have to make a decision between paid or organic. With YouTube specifically, your titles are what really is going to drive organic growth. And on YouTube, YouTube, your thumbnail, and what copy and imagery has to be related to your title and also have to pay off in the first 30 seconds of what you're saying to the podcast to get somebody to actually engage. But driving organic growth is unpredictable and slow. And so you need to be using data, using judgment, understanding your audience, and practicing trial and error. And there are no guarantees to driving organic growth. Growth specifically when you're in a subject matter that does not have a huge market. What did I get wrong?

[Cody Goff]

If we're talking about getting an audio podcast off the ground, I would almost always recommend some sort of paid budget. Unless you already have a large owned audience. That means if you have a lot of website traffic and you can stick a banner up there that says check out our podcast or particularly an email list. Like a curiosity. We had like 3 million people on our email distribution list and so the podcast off the bat had like 30,000 followers because we just promoted it there. So if you've got an existing audience, great. But if, if you are much smaller and you want to get a podcast off the ground, which I think is a great idea, I would typically put a little bit of money in that up front. Just the audio part. Don't worry about the video. Whether it's or video podcast, just advertise in the right places on the right apps to get a little bit of a boost at the start and then roll organic from there. If you've been going for a while, you could do the same thing, but you're right. Or slow and steady is going to be what organic looks like.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

All right, Cody, now it's time to move on to our lightning round where I'm going to ask you a couple of Martech related questions specifically centered around your experience and organic podcast growth. Are you ready?

[Cody Goff]

Probably not, but we'll try anyway.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Larry, we're going to do it. We're going to force you into it. All right, here we go. What is the one single most common mistake you see in podcast titles and what's the fastest way to fix it?

[Cody Goff]

People use people's names. When no one's searching for those names, like I talked today, I like the title will be like a Katarina Moses from Blah blah blah. And like, the thing is, no one pro, very likely in the world is going into Spotify and searching a Katarina Moses. Unless they're researching her for another podcast that they're about to interview her on, which I've done many times. So just don't do it. Just give the value. Put the guest's name. Unless it's a really, really high profile guest, which I saw you did with the CEO of Reich. I think it was a former CEO of Reich or CMO of Reich. Or maybe not HubSpot. It was HubSpot. The HubSpot guy. Yeah, you put his name in the title because, like the dude was a huge deal at HubSpot, which is a huge deal. Right. If it's, if it's. If you're talking to the CEO of Microsoft. Yeah. Okay, but like, for the most part, most people at most companies are not being searched for, like Brad Pitt or whatever.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Yeah. And it's funny, we have gone back and forth about this. How much should we be trying to own the. The guest's name and company combination, you know, in our organic growth strategy or how much should be we be trying to own the topic. And for us, the companies tend to be more recognizable, but if it is not the chief executive something of a major company. Right when it was when I interviewed Alex Schultz, who's the CMO of Meta. Alex Schultz, CMO of Meta says Blank is a logical title if I am interviewing somebody who is the head of demand at a demand generation company. I interviewed Sarah from Qualified. I don't think people are understand who Sarah from Qualified is. They might not even know qualified, but they do understand AI SDRs. And that's the hot topic and that's probably what people are looking for. So you have to use your judgment on how truly impactful is the person's name, the company and then what is the actual topic generally? Eileen Topic. You know what my biggest. No no is stop putting the damn episode numbers in your titles. They don't need to be there.

[Cody Goff]

I mean, I would. I was gonna say that, but like that's first. There's those two things on that. Yes. One, that's like amateur hour. Two, this American Life does it. Which drives me crazy because this American Life is in, for my money, the best podcast ever made. Like, and it's not even close. It's just perfect. But it's. Yeah, it's like 86 now. As a side note, I actually really like that they do that because it's just a number and I know when they run a rerun because they will put. Because if I see my feed 435, 436, 82, I know it's a rerun immediately and I'm never interested in those or very rarely interested in those. So they're the one exception. But that's like using Rogan as an example for anything. Like, you just don't.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Exception. Not the rule.

[Cody Goff]

Yeah, they're very much the exception. But yes, agreed. If you're not this American Life or Joe Rogan, please don't put the episode episode number in your podcast.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

All right, if you could pick one lever for organic growth, what are you choosing? Guest swaps. SEO listener surveys. What's your choice?

[Cody Goff]

I'm gonna say guest swaps, but they have to be really strategic and ideally, ideally, you not only guest swap with someone in the industry or with the the topic you're interested in, but also like, they should be a podcast host. I've just seen way better returns on that. So if you're. If I were you, don't do a favor for Somebody so that some random employee can come on your show, swap guests as, like with another podcast host.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

I want my name with a big TM and a smiling picture of me next to this. It's the swap ortunity. Wow, you're welcome. I. I think that is the most valuable thing you can do as a podcaster is be in the industry, be in the niche, right? And start having conversations with other people that have shows to start getting credibility, putting yourself out there, showing that you are somebody that the audience will want to listen to, like driving deep engagement. It is the swap. It is hard to scale that, right? There are only so many relevant podcasts in your niche, most likely, and so you have to be careful of going on a bunch of podcasts that are, let's call them, down market. But podcasts that don't really have audiences and that probably aren't worth your time. So be specific about who you're working with and try to understand if they have an actual following and an audience and if it's worth your time. But when it is and when they do, it's really worth it.

[Cody Goff]

I would add to that. Don't ever look at your podcast peers as competitors. If you go to like Refonic and you can, you can see like a web of what your listeners are also listening to. And when I was at Discovery, like every other science podcast is what they listen to. Like, what else do your listeners listen to? Not news, not sports, all science podcasts. So, like, it made sense for us to swap whether science podcasts. And then the other thing is like, once you exhaust your niche, like, I don't know how many other marketing technology podcasts there are, but like, go a little bit outside. Like, what do people who are in marketing, what are they into? Like, maybe there's a mental health podcast that we relevant to them or maybe maybe it's about startups or entrepreneurship. So go a little bit about code, cloud code. There you go. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. So there's some ways to blur that a little bit, but yeah.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Okay. What's the one metric you don't trust when a brand tells you their podcast is working?

[Cody Goff]

The easy answer is downloads. I'm supposed to say downloads, aren't I.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

I think you can say whatever you want, but downloads is correct.

[Cody Goff]

I think I'm just supposed, I'm supposed to say downloads because they, they're easy to. They're easy to game and they're not useless. I think it's overblown. Some people be like, the only thing that matters is completion rate. And it's like, no completion rate doesn't matter if you have six listeners. Like, I'm sorry, like, downloads are very important. You need to get them. Could they be better defined?

[Benjamin Shapiro]

It depends what your podcast is for. If you're running a up ad funded, you know, entertainment podcast, you need downloads because you're paid on the number of downloads. You're paid on impressions, you're paid on audience size. If you're a B2B marketing podcast, you need people to listen to you to get credibility. So you need reach, frequency and depth of message. And those are different metrics. Fundamentally, a download is a file on a device. Right. It's like if somebody went to you and said, how does your website function? And you're like, well, we served 8 million ad impressions and we had 34,000 page loads. Like, nobody cares. They care about cart completions. Like, it's, it's just the, like top of the top of the funnel. It's the lowest common denominator.

[Cody Goff]

Yeah, yeah. And I, I would also add completion rate is important, but I talked to the CEO of a production company that's worked on a lot of podcasts. He actually doesn't care about completion rates. He's like, yeah. And I'm like, what if they only listen to half your episode? He's like, what's wrong with that?

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Depends how long the episode is. It's half of an hour long episode. They sat with you for half an hour. That's pretty good. They learned something. They know who you are, they think you're smart.

[Cody Goff]

Exactly. Like, I mean, but they're like, think about it. Like if I have a bi weekly, if I do a podcast episode every like twice a week or something like that, right? Maybe they only listen to half of them. Or maybe they, they listen to like 10 minutes of each, but that's still 20 minutes a week. You're looking at like, it's, it's, it's tricky because it's like, what do you actually want from them? Like I said, like, I get 750,000 views on that Tick tock. I think it's up to 850 now. So like 850,000 like 10 second clips or whatever were consumed. That's who I got in front of. What I would I rather have them sit down and watch an hour and ten minute episode about beer? Like, yes. But like, the fact is I got in front of them. So depending on my goals, maybe that is a way bigger win than having like an 80% completion rate. Who knows?

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Yes. The rest of the metrics depend on your business. If you're a media business, you need volume, you need body count, you need reach. If you're using your podcast to try to sell, you know, five figure services business, you want people to consume your content. Doesn't matter how infrequently. You want the, the depth of message and the thought leadership and the knowledge sharing. So the other metrics you can kind of go back and forth on, excuse my language. Downloads. It's a dick measuring contest. It's my podcast. I could say you don't have to. All right, moving on. What's the biggest trap in going video for business podcasts?

[Cody Goff]

Going in without a strategy. You just need to know why are you doing it and how are you doing it? And the switch feels kind of easy. Like, even, even if you're like, we're just gonna add video, we'll keep everything else the same. We're just gonna add video and then that way we can all support it on YouTube. Okay, you say that. So are you gonna post the same episode description on YouTube and that same episode title on YouTube that you use on Apple and Spotify, et cetera? Because that ain't gonna work. That ain't gonna fly at all. Like you, you, you'll put in your episode all these keyword maximizing your Roth ira Is this for contributions? Whatever. Like keyword, keyword, keyword, keyword, right? Then you go on YouTube, it's gotta be like, you'll never believe how to make all this money or like the best way to make money in 2026 or whatever it is. Like you just, it's just a different dialect entirely. And not having chapter timestamps which suck to make and you have to use AI to make them or you're just sucking all your time out of the room. Like that's a, that's a necessary thing for YouTube growth. So, like, do you like this? Seems like the smallest thing just put video put on YouTube. No, you're now putting something on the platform. The platform that will not work.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

On that platform, people go to podcasts and they're ready to sit down or walk around or do the dishes for 20 to 30 minutes, right? They're, they're in for the long haul. They've already selected based on their personally curated list and they're interested in the topic and they press play and they put the phone in their pocket and they go do other things. You can bullshit on a podcast. You can, hey, how you doing? What's the weather? Tell me about your background. Cool. What Beer are you drinking today? What's your hair product? All right, let's get into the topic that seems to work a little bit in audio. Although I would argue that the world is getting a little bit more sophisticated and just needs you to get to the point. If you're not paying off the value prop in the first 10 seconds of your YouTube video, people are bouncing, like, to me, the introduction and the connection between what's stopping the thumb, because it doesn't matter if people are following you. That's not necessarily what content they're watching. What's the title which gets them to click? And then in the first 10 seconds, are you helping deliver value related to that thumbnail and title? Like, if you don't get that formula right, forget it. So on YouTube, my learning was when you're recording for YouTube, that first 30 seconds needs to be scripted. It needs to be something that you know is going to be hot and compelling. That's why we always start with a number on this podcast. We're trying to get the data geeks to be like, ooh, there's a number. Let me digest it. I'm still thinking about it. All right, he's still talking. Wait, what was he saying? There was actually a little thought behind some of that formula that went into how do I pay off the first 10 seconds to get you to stay There, There.

[Cody Goff]

Yeah.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

All right, last one. What's the one sign a podcast has real market fit?

[Cody Goff]

Getting a reaction. People got to react to it.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

That was my answer.

[Cody Goff]

Really?

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Social engagement. Yeah, absolutely. You know how, you know when your podcast is actually working? When people tell you, I listen to your podcast not just for, like, the vanity sake, but. And it shows up on for me, LinkedIn. Hey, I listen to your podcast. I like this episode. And not somebody that's pitching, hey, I want my somebody to be on your show. But every once in a while, you'll get, dare I say, a fan who's like, I listen to your content because it is valuable and interesting to me, not because I want to get a speaker on your show or because I want you to attend my conference or be our speaker or anything like that, but you actually get people that are like, this had value when I listened to it because I get something from it. To me, that's the sign. It's working.

[Cody Goff]

Yeah, Yeah, I would agree.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

We agree. Yeah.

[Cody Goff]

Nothing to add there.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

All right, well, hey, let's land it on agreement. Cody, you're the best. You've been nothing but generous with your time. I've learned a tremendous amount from you about organic growth, about the space. Thank you so much for coming on and being my guest and being really, to me, a pillar of the industry and somebody that understands what podcasting is about. It's not just getting audio files into people's ears. There is a community here, and to me, you're part of my tribe in this community. So thanks for coming on and being my guest.

[Cody Goff]

Anytime I'm going to throw away the other six pages of notes I had on things I could have talked about. Thank you for having me.

[Sponsor Representative]

All right, and a special thanks to Scrunch for sponsoring this interview. Scrunch is the AI customer experience platform that helps marketing teams understand how AI agents experience their site. They tell you how your brand shows up in LLM results, where it doesn't, and what's preventing your content from being retrieved, trusted, or recommended. And for Martech podcast listeners, Scrunch is providing a free website diagnostic that uncovers how AI sees your site, where you have content gaps, and how you're showing up versus your competition. To see how LLMs evaluate your site, go to scrunch.com that's Scrunch S C R U N C H well, that

[Benjamin Shapiro]

wraps up this episode of the MarTech podcast. Thanks for listening to my conversation with Cody Goff, a podcast growth strategist. He also works at NerdWallet. If you'd like to contact Cody, you could find a link to his LinkedIn profile in our show notes or on martechpod.com you can always visit his personal website, which is podcastgrowthconsultant.com and if you haven't subscribed yet and you want a daily stream of marketing and technology knowledge and your podcast feed, click the subscribe button in your podcast app or on YouTube and we'll be back in your feed next week. All right, that's it for today, but until next time, my advice is to just focus on keeping your customers happy. Foreign.

[Podcast Network Announcer]

Thanks for listening to the Martech Podcast and I hear everything. Production Looking to launch or scale a podcast like this one for your brand? Then visit iheareverything.com.