What is your automaton tech-stack?

Summary

MarTech Podcast: What is Your Automation Tech-Stack?

Host: Benjamin Shapiro
Guest: Charlie Grinnell, Co-CEO of Right Metric
Date: November 12, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode centers on the evolution and practicality of marketing automation tech-stacks, with a candid discussion on how marketers are leveraging (and sometimes “duct taping”) current automation tools. Benjamin Shapiro and Charlie Grinnell explore their own workflows, the balance between simplicity and sophistication, and the reality of working in a rapidly shifting technology landscape. Their conversation offers a behind-the-scenes look into which tools they use, how they connect them, and why flexibility is critical for marketers today.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Charlie's Approach to Automation

[01:47 - 02:29]

• Charlie admits he isn't a developer, coming from a video production background. His stack is intentionally simple yet effective:
  • Things 3 for task management
  • Reclaim AI for smart calendar blocking
  • Workflow “stitched” together using Zapier, Lindy, Twilio
• Emphasizes function over complexity: "My stack is like quite flexible and duct taped and I'm trying to get really clear on what are the things that I can transfer between them, which is the prompts, the, the context, all of that. I think the tools can absolutely change." (Charlie Grinnell, 02:29)

2. No-Code Revolution & Accessibility

[01:57 - 02:25]

• Charlie insists coding skills are no longer required:
  • "Like I do not know how to code, full stop." (Charlie Grinnell, 02:00)
• Benjamin notes, "Everybody knows how to code. You can code in English now." (Benjamin Shapiro, 02:25)

3. The Necessity of Flexibility

[02:29 - 03:27]

• Charlie explains why he's kept his stack flexible and provisional in this “gold rush” moment:
  • “I built them by duct tape for a reason. Because we're in the gold rush...I think that, you know, it's a fool's errand to try and pour concrete on a lot of this stuff.” (Charlie Grinnell, 02:29)
• He focuses on transferring context, prompts, and workflows rather than committing to rigid tools.

4. Choosing Tools: Simplicity vs. Sophistication

[03:27 - 04:11]

• Benjamin shares his own preference for user-friendly tools, recounting a failed migration:
  • “[With] N8N ...it was so much more complex that I'm like, what am I doing? ...the user friendly platform, the, you know, tried and true Zapier. Why would you use such an old platform? Make is better…they all do the same thing. Why wouldn’t I use the one that’s the easiest?” (Benjamin Shapiro, 03:37)
• Both hosts admit they favor tools they can bend to their needs, even if it's not "the developer way."

5. Lindy vs. Zapier: When to Use What

[04:11 - 05:20]

• Benjamin asks Charlie how he delineates between Lindy and Zapier.
• Charlie sees Lindy as “Zapier on steroids”:
  • "Lindy just kind of like, rolled [workflow automation] out in a way where I started playing with it, and it kind of just worked for me...they're probably interchangeable." (Charlie Grinnell, 04:45)
• Admits to some data/workflow sprawl across platforms:
  • “My lack of personal data hygiene. I probably have some stuff running in Zapier I could centralize...but there's just so many workflows …I just haven't gone back and cleaned it up because, again, I don't think that's a good use of time.” (Charlie Grinnell, 05:07)

6. Data Organization and Reality vs. Aspiration

[05:20 - 05:33]

• Benjamin jokes about how marketers break their own data discipline rules:
  • “Doctors make the worst patients. And marketers also make the worst marketers and don't follow their own advice.” (Benjamin Shapiro, 05:20)
• Charlie’s advice: “Don’t listen to what I say. Watch what I do.” (Charlie Grinnell, 05:31)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “I do not know how to code, full stop.” – Charlie Grinnell (02:00)
• “Everybody knows how to code. You can code in English now.” – Benjamin Shapiro (02:25)
• “I built them by duct tape for a reason. Because we're in the gold rush...I think that, you know, it's a fool's errand to try and pour concrete on a lot of this stuff.” – Charlie Grinnell (02:29)
• “Why wouldn’t I use the one that’s the easiest? Maybe I’m just biased.” – Benjamin Shapiro (04:00)
• “Lindy is basically... Zapier on steroids.” – Charlie Grinnell (04:45)
• “Doctors make the worst patients. And marketers also make the worst marketers and don't follow their own advice.” – Benjamin Shapiro (05:20)
• “Don’t listen to what I say. Watch what I do.” – Charlie Grinnell (05:31)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Charlie's Automation Tech-Stack: 01:47 – 02:29
• Perspective on Coding and No-Code: 01:57 – 02:25
• On Flexibility/Not Pouring Concrete: 02:29 – 03:27
• Why Choose User-Friendly Tools (Zapier vs N8N): 03:27 – 04:11
• Comparing Lindy & Zapier; Data Hygiene Confessions: 04:45 – 05:20
• Data Organization Irony & Closing Banter: 05:20 – 05:33

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Episode Tone & Style

The discussion is casual, honest, and self-deprecating, with both hosts embracing the “pragmatic marketer” identity. They poke fun at their own contradictions, share the realities of operating in a fast-changing field, and highlight a bias towards tools that work now over hypothetical future solutions.

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Takeaway

Marketers don’t need to be coders to build powerful automations—the current landscape enables non-technical users to craft sophisticated, adaptable workflows. The key: favor flexibility, accept a bit of chaos, and focus more on effective context and transferability than on perfect data hygiene or monolithic toolsets.

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

The Martech Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

From advertising to software.

[Charlie Grinnell]

As a service to data, across all of our programs and clients, we've seen a 55 to 65% open rate. Getting brands authentically integrated into content performs better than TV advertising.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Typical lifespan of an article is about 24 to 36 hours.

[Charlie Grinnell]

We're reaching out to the right person with the right message and a clear call to action. Then it's just a matter of timing.

[Podcast Announcer]

Welcome to the Martech Podcast, a member of the I Hear Everything Podcast network. In this podcast, you'll hear the stories of world class marketers that used technology to drive business results and achieve career success. Here's a host of the Martech Podcast, Benjamin Shapiro.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

I'm Benjamin Shapiro and joining me today is Charlie Grinnell, the co CEO of Right Metric, which equips marketers with external data signals that AI needs for true accuracy. And today Charlie is going to explain what we are getting backwards when it comes to the relationship between marketers and AI. All right, let's move on to our next question. Yep, again a selfish one because I think you're a brilliant, brilliant builder and we think about orchestration and automation the same way. Tell me, what's your automation tech stack?

[Charlie Grinnell]

Yeah, so I'm not a developer or a technical person. I got my job in video production, so this might be like very, very simple. So I'm a podcast host.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Preach.

[Charlie Grinnell]

Okay, so, so I use things three for, as my task manager. Um, I use reclaim AI for my like smart calendar blocking. Um, and then in terms of like how I stitch things together, it's literally like zapier Lindy Twilio. Like it's very, very simple things here. And so I think that, you know, to those listening who are going, oh, like here are these two nerds nerding out about AI. Da da da. Like I do not know how to code, full stop.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Everybody knows how to code. You can code in English now.

[Charlie Grinnell]

So a lot of what I've built is kind of like duct taped together with these systems that work for me both from a device perspective. So you know, I've been really, really intentional about how can I set up these devices so that they're the hardware and the software kind of work seamlessly for my workflow, whether that's keyboard shortcuts and having things talk to each other. So that's number one. But number two, I built them by duct tape for a reason. Because we're in the gold rush and I'm not really in right now trying to pour concrete on anything because like tomorrow you and I are going to be talking about something that would completely 10 is 10x better, faster, cheaper, whatever than what we are dealing with today. And so I think that, you know, it's a fool's errand to try and pull pour concrete on a lot of this stuff. So my stack is like quite flexible and duct taped and I'm trying to get really clear on what are the things that I can transfer between them, which is the prompts, the, the context, all of that. I think the tools can actually absolutely change. But the way that you use them and the context and the inputs and outputs are something that you can take and transfer along.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

I'm a nerd in the sense that I want to use like the best in class tools, the new cool thing. And maybe I'm just a sucker for good marketing, but when it came to my automation stack, I tried to make the transition From Zapier to N8N and technically it was so much more complex that I'm like, what am I doing? I'm going to burn all sorts of cycles and try to replicate what I've already done when the user friendly platform, the, you know, tried and true Zapier. Why would you use such an old platform? Make is better. And all this other stuff, they all do the same thing. Why wouldn't I use the one that's the easiest? Maybe I'm just biased.

[Charlie Grinnell]

No, no, I agree. And I think about it the same way. Like I, as soon as I heard N8M, I was like, that's too complex. Even the name, I was just like, nope.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Yeah, I get it that there's a bunch of stuff N8N can do that's more flexible than Zapier. I just, I'm creative enough to bend Zapier the way that I need it to go to not have to do things like looping and some of the other like steps that you need. And I'm sure there's a developer there that's pulling out his hair being like these two idiots are doing it the wrong way. And it's like, for sure, yeah, but we're going to rip it out next week anyway when something new comes in. I do want to ask you, you mentioned Lindy a couple times. What do you use that for as opposed to Zapier So Lindy is basically.

[Charlie Grinnell]

I think about it, like Zapier on steroids. So I know Zapier has. It's, it's similar. Zapier has. It started with these kind of, like, workflow connectors. Hooks. Right. And then it's moved into. Zapier has their own kind of like, agent flow. Lindy just kind of like, rolled that out in a way where I started playing with it, and it kind of just worked for me. So, like, they're, they're probably interchangeable. I have some stuff, and this is my, my, my lack of personal data hygiene. I probably have some stuff running in Zapier I could centralize probably between the two of those. But. But there's just so many workflows that have now been created that I just haven't gone back and cleaned it up because, again, I don't think that's a good use of time.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

Yep, doctors make the worst patients. And marketers also make the worst marketers and don't follow their own advice. You said get your data organized, young man, and you're using multiple different platforms. Shameful.

[Charlie Grinnell]

Don't listen to what I say. Watch what I do.

[Benjamin Shapiro]

And that wraps up this episode of the Martech podcast. Thanks to Charlie Grinnell, the CEO and co founder of RightMetric, for joining us. If you'd like to contact Charlie, you can find a link to his LinkedIn profile in our show notes or visit martechpod.com you can also visit his company's website, which is rightmetric.co. charlie also has a weekly newsletter that tears down the external data world, giving the latest on what's working in marketing, content, channels, audience, competitors, a whole bunch of great stuff. RightMetric Co newsletter and if you haven't subscribed yet to this podcast and you want a daily stream of marketing and technology knowledge in your podcast feed, hit the subscribe button in your podcast app or on YouTube and we'll be back in your feed next week. All right, that's it for today, but until next time, my advice is to just focus on keeping your customers happy.

[Podcast Announcer]

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