What legacy marketing metric needs to die?

Summary

Episode Overview

Episode: What legacy marketing metric needs to die?
Podcast: MarTech Podcast ™
Host: Benjamin Shapiro
Guest: Noah Rizik, CMO of Encore
Date: November 6, 2025

This episode explores which traditional marketing metric should be retired in light of shifts in how brands find, engage, and measure the impact of their marketing. Host Benjamin Shapiro and guest Noah Rizik discuss why some long-standing metrics may have outlived their usefulness, advocating for a more nuanced, intent-driven approach in contemporary marketing strategy.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Problem with Awareness as a Metric

• Noah Rizik’s Hot Take: Noah argues that "awareness" as a legacy metric is increasingly a vanity metric with minimal inherent value.
  • Notable Quote:

    "I think awareness. I think there's no inherent value in being known. I think in someone hearing of you or even recognizing your name, I think you need a stronger value signal."
    — Noah Rizik [01:19]

  • She suggests that more actionable signals (like message breakthrough or intent) are much more valuable, and that awareness is only significant at the absolute beginning of the customer journey.
  • Additional perspective:

    "Awareness in and of itself feels like a vanity metric to me...I call it the zero space, but I feel like that dies as quickly as you measure it."
    — Noah Rizik [01:50]

2. The Evolving Role of Click-Through Rates

• Host’s Perspective: Benjamin Shapiro counters that while awareness is essential for moving prospects through the funnel (to credibility, then consideration), click-through rate (CTR) is also on the decline in importance.
  • Notable Quote:

    "The more that we are looking at AI and user experience changing, the less the click matters, the less you're going to get people to your website to do the research on your own properties, the more they're going to be researching you based on what can be gleaned from the entire world around your brand."
    — Benjamin Shapiro [02:37]

• Shift in User Research: With the rise of AI and rich information available outside direct brand platforms, CTR as a signal is diminished, indicating the need for new intent-driven metrics.

3. The Diminishing Role of Websites

• Rizik Expands: Noah agrees that websites may not "fully die" but have become less central. She notes that click-through is a "broader, more intent-based signal" than mere awareness.
  • Notable Quote:

    "Websites are dying. I think we know that to be true. They might not fully die...But click-through seems to be more of an intent based signal on some aspects of your funnel versus just awareness."
    — Noah Rizik [03:14]

• The Ephemeral Value of Awareness:
  • When you try to measure awareness, its value is often already gone—it’s "dead on arrival" due to its fleeting nature.

4. Importance of Nuanced, Intent-Driven Metrics

• Both agree that while awareness and CTR had their place, marketing measurement needs to focus more on nuanced signals—those that actually illustrate intent and action, not just exposure or curiosity.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Noah Rizik:

  "I feel like the moment you measure [awareness], it's already dead. Like you do. It's its lifespan is so short."
  [03:36]

• Benjamin Shapiro:

  "You need awareness before you can get to credibility and you need credibility before you can get to consideration."
  [02:17]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:15-01:59] – Noah Rizik challenges the value of "awareness" as a metric.
• [02:15-02:59] – Benjamin Shapiro suggests click-through rate is also becoming obsolete; discussion of evolving user research methods.
• [03:00-03:59] – Debate on the broadness of CTR, the diminishing importance of websites, and the short lifespan of the awareness metric.

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Tone and Language

The tone is candid, reflective, and a bit provocative—typical of lightning-round style discussions designed to challenge industry orthodoxy. Both speakers use real-world analogies and hot takes to engage listeners and question the status quo.

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Summary Table: Which Metrics Need to Die — and Why

| Metric | Critique / Reason It Should Die | Speaker | |------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|------------------| | Awareness | Lacks inherent value; is a vanity metric; too fleeting | Noah Rizik | | Click-through | Less relevant as user research shifts to AI/chatbots and off-site platforms | Benjamin Shapiro | | Website Visits | Websites are less central; off-site research dominates | Both |

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Conclusion

Noah Rizik and Benjamin Shapiro collectively argue that as marketing landscapes and technologies evolve, metrics like "awareness" and "click-through rate" are losing their efficacy and relevance. The conversation urges marketers to adopt measurement frameworks rooted in nuanced, intent-driven signals rather than lingering on legacy vanity metrics.

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For more episodes or to connect with the guest, visit their respective LinkedIn or martechpod.com.

Transcript

[A]

The Martech Podcast is a proud member of the I Hear Everything Podcast Network. Looking to launch or scale your podcast, I Hear Everything delivers podcast production, growth and monetization solutions that transform your words into profit. Ready to give your brand a voice? Then visit iheareverything.com.

[B]

From advertising to software as a service to data across all of our programs and clients, we've seen a 55 to 65% open rate. Getting brands authentically integrated into content performs better than TV advertising. Typical lifespan of an article is about 24 to 36 hours. We're reaching out to the right person with the right message and a clear call to action. Then it's just a matter of timing.

[A]

Welcome to the Martech Podcast, a member of the I Hear Everything Podcast network. In this podcast, you'll hear the stories of world class marketers that used technology to drive business results and achieve career success. Here's a host of the Martech Podcast. Benjamin Shapiro.

[B]

What legacy marketing metric needs to die?

[C]

Oh my goodness. That is. That is a hard one. I've struggled with that one. I know this is a lightning round. And here's another hot take. Controversial. I think awareness. I think there's no inherent value in being known. I think in someone hearing of you or even recognizing your name, I think you need a stronger value signal. Do they understand you? Breakthrough is probably a more nuanced signal for awareness message, breakthrough or even better would be intent signals. Right? But awareness in and of itself feels like a vanity metric to me that I know is important for top of the funnel, but I think the moment that like its only use is very much, very early top of funnel. I call it the zero space, but I feel like that dies as quickly as you measure it.

[B]

Yeah, I, I don't disagree that awareness can be. I don't know if it needs to go away or die, but awareness seems like it's that top of the funnel vanity ish metric. You need awareness before you can get to credibility and you need credibility before can get to consideration. It's funny, I was going to say things like click through rate. Right. The more that we are looking at AI and user experience changing, the less the click matters, the less you're going to get people to your website to do the research on your own properties, the more they're going to be researching you based on what can be gleaned from the entire world around your brand. And so I think click through rates a little going away, but again it kind of goes into the same thing where that direct traffic, right. People coming to your website to do your research. That seems to be going away and honestly you needed awareness to drive that.

[C]

Yeah, I considered click through rate, but click through rate is so broad. I think websites are dying. I think we know that to be true. They might not fully die. You might still need to be able to go to the source of information and not rely fully on the summarized agentic or chatbot style research. And that's a whole conversation in and of itself. But click through seems to be more of an intent based signal on some aspects of your funnel versus just awareness. Like I'm not discounting that awareness is important and is the first step, but like I said, I feel like the moment you measure it, it's already dead. Like you do. It's its lifespan is so short.

[B]

Yeah, it's the usefulness.

[C]

The lifespan of its usefulness is really short.

[B]

The Fruit 5 metrics and that wraps up this episode of the Martech Podcast. A huge thanks to Noah Rizik, the CMO of Encore, for joining us. If you'd like to contact Noha, you can find a link to her LinkedIn profile in our show notes or visit martechpod.com if you'd like to learn more about Encore, you can visit their website, which is incorda.com, i n C-O-R-T a.com if you haven't subscribed yet and you want a daily stream of marketing and technology knowledge in your podcast feed, hit the subscribe button in your podcast app. Or, of course, Visit us on YouTube, where we'll be back in your feed every week. All right, that's it for today, but until next time, my advice is to just focus on keeping your customers happy. Foreign.

[A]

Thanks for listening to the Martech Podcast and I hear everything. Production Looking to launch or scale a podcast like this one for your brand? Then visit iheareverything.com.