Episode Overview

Episode: What legacy marketing metric needs to die?
Podcast: MarTech Podcast ™
Host: Benjamin Shapiro
Guest: Noah Rizik, CMO of Encore
Date: November 6, 2025

This episode explores which traditional marketing metric should be retired in light of shifts in how brands find, engage, and measure the impact of their marketing. Host Benjamin Shapiro and guest Noah Rizik discuss why some long-standing metrics may have outlived their usefulness, advocating for a more nuanced, intent-driven approach in contemporary marketing strategy.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Problem with Awareness as a Metric

• Noah Rizik’s Hot Take: Noah argues that "awareness" as a legacy metric is increasingly a vanity metric with minimal inherent value.
  • Notable Quote:

    "I think awareness. I think there's no inherent value in being known. I think in someone hearing of you or even recognizing your name, I think you need a stronger value signal."
    — Noah Rizik [01:19]

  • She suggests that more actionable signals (like message breakthrough or intent) are much more valuable, and that awareness is only significant at the absolute beginning of the customer journey.
  • Additional perspective:

    "Awareness in and of itself feels like a vanity metric to me...I call it the zero space, but I feel like that dies as quickly as you measure it."
    — Noah Rizik [01:50]

2. The Evolving Role of Click-Through Rates

• Host’s Perspective: Benjamin Shapiro counters that while awareness is essential for moving prospects through the funnel (to credibility, then consideration), click-through rate (CTR) is also on the decline in importance.
  • Notable Quote:

    "The more that we are looking at AI and user experience changing, the less the click matters, the less you're going to get people to your website to do the research on your own properties, the more they're going to be researching you based on what can be gleaned from the entire world around your brand."
    — Benjamin Shapiro [02:37]

• Shift in User Research: With the rise of AI and rich information available outside direct brand platforms, CTR as a signal is diminished, indicating the need for new intent-driven metrics.

3. The Diminishing Role of Websites

• Rizik Expands: Noah agrees that websites may not "fully die" but have become less central. She notes that click-through is a "broader, more intent-based signal" than mere awareness.
  • Notable Quote:

    "Websites are dying. I think we know that to be true. They might not fully die...But click-through seems to be more of an intent based signal on some aspects of your funnel versus just awareness."
    — Noah Rizik [03:14]

• The Ephemeral Value of Awareness:
  • When you try to measure awareness, its value is often already gone—it’s "dead on arrival" due to its fleeting nature.

4. Importance of Nuanced, Intent-Driven Metrics

• Both agree that while awareness and CTR had their place, marketing measurement needs to focus more on nuanced signals—those that actually illustrate intent and action, not just exposure or curiosity.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Noah Rizik:

  "I feel like the moment you measure [awareness], it's already dead. Like you do. It's its lifespan is so short."
  [03:36]

• Benjamin Shapiro:

  "You need awareness before you can get to credibility and you need credibility before you can get to consideration."
  [02:17]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:15-01:59] – Noah Rizik challenges the value of "awareness" as a metric.
• [02:15-02:59] – Benjamin Shapiro suggests click-through rate is also becoming obsolete; discussion of evolving user research methods.
• [03:00-03:59] – Debate on the broadness of CTR, the diminishing importance of websites, and the short lifespan of the awareness metric.

Tone and Language

The tone is candid, reflective, and a bit provocative—typical of lightning-round style discussions designed to challenge industry orthodoxy. Both speakers use real-world analogies and hot takes to engage listeners and question the status quo.

Summary Table: Which Metrics Need to Die — and Why

| Metric | Critique / Reason It Should Die | Speaker | |------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------------------|------------------| | Awareness | Lacks inherent value; is a vanity metric; too fleeting | Noah Rizik | | Click-through | Less relevant as user research shifts to AI/chatbots and off-site platforms | Benjamin Shapiro | | Website Visits | Websites are less central; off-site research dominates | Both |

Conclusion

Noah Rizik and Benjamin Shapiro collectively argue that as marketing landscapes and technologies evolve, metrics like "awareness" and "click-through rate" are losing their efficacy and relevance. The conversation urges marketers to adopt measurement frameworks rooted in nuanced, intent-driven signals rather than lingering on legacy vanity metrics.

For more episodes or to connect with the guest, visit their respective LinkedIn or martechpod.com.